SRL Archive - Senior News and General

Reflection..?


Naike

2010-09-29 04:12:59

Why don't we start supporting reflection now that SMART is open source? :)

If we care, and don't push it out at every end of the forum, people would actually help out.. (As in, people with updaters)

Thoughts?

oh, and don't go ahead and lock this thread, lets have a relaxed conversation now, shall we?

Wizzup?

2010-09-29 04:30:20

Reflection is pretty well supported I'd say. It's just not in the same repository as SRL.
The Simba installer comes with an extension to install reflection by default, and MSI (afaik) highly relies on reflection.

Naike

2010-09-29 05:20:33

Then I think we should invite people with updaters, as that'll provide them a reason to do it, not just for the sake of it..
In other words, we need more reliabel updates.
Any ideas?

Edit: We don't really support it, we all know that.

ZephyrsFury

2010-09-29 05:40:50

From: Naike
Then I think we should invite people with updaters, as that'll provide them a reason to do it, not just for the sake of it..
In other words, we need more reliabel updates.
Any ideas?

Edit: We don't really support it, we all know that.


There are people with updaters, that's how most people get their hooks nowadays. Its not being developed enough, not enough things are working.

Naike

2010-09-29 05:43:51

From: ZephyrsFury
There are people with updaters, that's how most people get their hooks nowadays. Its not being developed enough, not enough things are working.


Not on these forums? which update the hooks.scar publicly?
If there was, I would develop it and make sure that it's working.

We had a great peak when Drags did this, and so when Method did..
But nowadays it's nobody at all :\

Naike

2010-09-29 06:44:41

Reflection and SRL would make the ever going include, as both have their pros and cons. Reflection can find animations, walk easily, accurate clicking while SRL is more interface based.
Have you ever noticed how SRL covers pretty much every single part of the runescape gametabs? And we both know it's damn good at it.
Where it's not so good is walking, one little graphical update or a tiny bit change of color just to fuck us over, and we have to re-do it. A perfect example of having them mixed would be font updates, as recently they've started to change them around again. These updates takes us 1-7 hours to fix, depending on much is changed, while if it happens and we had reflection for those parts, it wouldn't be that bad?
(I'm not saying that we should dump rs_GetUpText in the river, as that's a very strong and powerful function, but stuff like "GetSkillLevel" or "GetCombatLevel" would be much better off using reflection. It would carry (two or three?) fonts out of our hands, and we wouldn't have to rush to update them.

Reflection itself, ain't a gift from god, it breaks as well. When it does, with the right people it'll be working again under the time of 24 hours(keynote: right people).
Reflection has flaws too, but very little if the hooks are correct and the include itself works. One major flaw in the current reflection include is that it hasn't been maintained properly, which followed by no comments or documents of how functions was created, no real structure really.

Reflection can really help this community, if we support it and take care of it. Invite some people which have the updaters, and really enjoy working with the client. And not just push them of the cliff when they arrive, care for them. It's a perfect timing as well, new program(simba), new include(SRL 5), and we lack people?

Doing this will of course make it somewhat easier to script an miner for example.. but atm we have no miner?!, I would understand the argument itself if there was scripts, but as of now there are very few.
"But it takes 5 minutes to create a walk! TOO EASY!"
Go ahead and make an AIO miner instead of a VEM? That should turn the difficulty up a little bit, if still not satisfied, go ahead and create something bigger?

"It's too easy to build a house!"
"Build a fucking mansion then?"


If you allow this into your doors, you'll find that this community will start to grow again, not just knowledge-wise but it'll go back to what it once was.
I'm begging you to see the obvious reasons to do (some, if not all) parts of this, as the results would be more then satisfying.

As of now, we all know that color scripting ain't enough to drag people in here.. It once was, but now it's dying.

The Claw

2010-09-29 09:58:36

No real reason for it not to be included with SRL I think

NCDS

2010-09-29 10:46:26

MSI uses Reflection for walking and it works great. Is there really any other need for it?

Coh3n keeps posting the updated ones here: http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58997

Naike

2010-09-29 14:20:45

From: NCDS
MSI uses Reflection for walking and it works great. Is there really any other need for it?

Coh3n keeps posting the updated ones here: http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58997


Do you actually believe that we're as strong and appealing as we were two years ago?

Markus

2010-09-29 15:41:53

TL;DR BELOW

As N1ke pointed me out to this thread I'll give my $0.02. Of course they don't mean anything but they are some general guidelines for maintaining an active reflection include.

Right now there's an awful lot of segregation and user confusion going around in reflection. One of the reasons contributing to SRL's old success was that there was an active group of developers maintaining, extending and cleaning up the include. Except for one two-week SRL 3.81-4.00beta gap after a massive interface update, the downtimes have always been less than one or two weeks. Since SRL 4.0 the stable releases have always been a good place to auto and the Open Dev repositories further contributed to rapid bug fixing and a more transparent and open development environment.

Reflection used to be frowned upon at SRL. Back when the first SRL Reflection extension in the form of KYAB came upon us, there already was a group of pro-KYAB (which I was part of) and anti-KYAB. Because of issues of leaking this 'too powerful' tool it was kept inside SRL members. But even more issues arose and Solarwind moved KYAB to their own separate forums where they managed to stay alive for some time. They also cracked Nexus Pro, a shitload of payscripts and some other stuff and the community flourished for some time until Solarwind became the douchebag we still know him for.

Then SMART came around, this time developed by Benland100 and supported by all-time SRL Leader WT-Fakawi. Also this time it was first kept in SSRL for the first few months (although two members, Raymond and I, managed to get their hands on it because iSpy was not configured right), and was kept there because of it being 'too powerful', and 'mass-raping' of RS would begin. Again, it got released to members and later on to public, though without the FPS bar (which later got added to the public release).

We faced exactly the same cycle with the addition of reflection to SMART. SMART v2 added reflection support and some fellow SSRL'ers started developing an include for it. Although first only used for walking, later on object-finding and NPC-finding were added. And then it also went to members and later on the the public, based on one rule: no reflection in the public SRL.

You see, many people back then still remembered the KYAB-fiasco and there were still moral/ethical issues against reflection. Some of these issues are still there today and there has always been demand for good-working colour scripts as opposed to reflection. Partly because most SRL developers didn't know anything about the client, partly because they were 'against' it, reflection has had a separate development team.

Many engine updates faced us with one of the most dominant drawbacks of reflection: only a few people knew how to update the hooks, and if they weren't around then reflection was left broken and the leechers whining. Lets just face it: there's only limited knowledge of the client over here and only a handful of people know how to write a reliable updater from scratch. Again, no one wants to share his because it's "too powerful".

We also faced the limited knowledge when the Runetek 5 update came around and reflection was broken for a couple of (months?). Drags came around and fixed it, then suddenly left. He is/was one of the few people who knew how to fix it and he actually did it. The other "reflection devs" just proved one thing: their development cycle just isn't mature enough. There's too much reliance on a couple of persons and yet they want to merge it with a mature colour include.

It's true reflection has been passed as 'for noobs' and 'just too easy'. But face it: most of the moral issues, you don't hear anything about them nowadays. I myself frankly do not care that much about SRL any more and will leave them out of this argument. Reflection scripts aren't frowned upon as before. Still that doesn't mean that there's nothing wrong with including the reflection include in the mainline SRL repos. I'll point them out here.

First of all, developing reflection scripts isn't too easy. For instance when I visit the reflection tutorial section, the first thing I notice is that it's dead. There are no good tutorials on using the include imho. How can I find IDs of NPCs/objects? What's the easiest way to generate a path? Most of the tutorials are on installing reflection, which *should* be easy to do with the reflection.sex (I never used it myself, but if it's hard: someone did something terribly wrong). I see tutorials on updating the hooks but that's also something reflection.sex *should* do.

Secondly, there aren't too many scripts using reflection. MSI uses it and is one great example on how to do it but besides that? Nike used to have an awesome rock crab fighter which he even sold and (correct me if I'm wrong) didn't sell too bad at all. There's a demand for great scripts, especially if they can be created with minimal effort. Reflection needs to prove it has an added value and it sure can, but it needs to be done. The reflection devs can do this by creating a few good (but demanded!) scripts. If it's good enough to be used, it WILL be used. Remember that.

Finally there's one thing left. Nike pointed out that there is a bit of fragmentation going on: he said that although there's a reflection development team, they're not really that great. Reflection needs to prove itself and can do so by showing that there's a motivated team of talented people working on it. If it gets broken, it needs to be fixed within a day (large engine updates can take longer of course). Everything should be automatically pushed to the user using reflection.sex imho. The user should be able to hit and go and see a reliable include running their script.

tl;dr: In the above 1001 words I basically made the following points:

  • Reflection is too reliant on only a few persons atm
  • There needs to be a supply of scripts
  • There should be easily accessible information on using reflection
  • There should be *one*, well-maintained, always functioning reflection include.
Merging reflection with SRL won't help to solve any of the above issues. Getting the reflection dev team shaped up, however, will. Get some talented people in, create a few scripts and create the goddamn tutorials. Reflection will be able to survive fine just then, and with it SRL.

NCDS

2010-09-29 15:42:48

From: Naike
Do you actually believe that we're as strong and appealing as we were two years ago?


Have you checked out MSI at all?

Naike

2010-09-29 15:53:32

From: NCDS
Have you checked out MSI at all?


What does MSI have to do with us being appealing?
We got one big script? Woah..

Naike

2010-09-29 16:00:27

I agree on what Markus is saying, I wouldn't just throw it in there to see what'll happen.
Instead for the third time of today, invite people with knowledge, who can not only teach but update the hooks.. as that is our main problem.
And I really don't see the butthurt in having two includes, with working hooks combined, and maintained?

Stop being stuborn, or this freaking forum will die in the cold cave its in.. you said so yourself markus..

R0b0t1

2010-09-29 16:14:32

Don't support reflection because of the retardacity of US and European courts. If it were to stay a individuals project, but happen to be included, SRL wouldn't really be linked with it.

Well, group project. As long as that group isn't actually SRL.

NCDS

2010-09-29 16:23:55

From: Naike
What does MSI have to do with us being appealing?
We got one big script? Woah..


Is that not what people look for when they try to level up they're RS chars?

I'm all for further dev'ing Reflection and getting a solid dev team together for it, don't think I'm trying to argue that, because I'm not.

I do find that people think MSI is rather appealing though. It still continues to impress me even sometimes.

Naike

2010-09-29 16:27:43

From: R0b0t1
Don't support reflection because of the retardacity of US and European courts. If it were to stay a individuals project, but happen to be included, SRL wouldn't really be linked with it.

Well, group project. As long as that group isn't actually SRL.


You make no sense at all.. you need to tell me what the negative points, so we can get somewhere in this discussion.



From: NCDS
Is that not what people look for when they try to level up they're RS chars?

No, that would be scripts(which are working).
Which we have about a handful of now.. (I would count them, but afraid of the results..)

Nava2

2010-09-29 17:37:12

From: Naike
No, that would be scripts(which are working).
Which we have about a handful of now.. (I would count them, but afraid of the results..)


MSI has something like 8 scripts in it?

Naike

2010-09-29 17:47:48

From: Nava2
MSI has something like 8 scripts in it?


Compared to what we used to have..?
Come on guys..

We got one big script? and the rest is pretty much half working, not working at all.

NCDS

2010-09-29 18:23:24

From: Naike
Compared to what we used to have..?
Come on guys..

We got one big script? and the rest is pretty much half working, not working at all.


There are currently 3 people actively developing MSI. Myself, Coh3n and RM once in a while.

MSI currently contains 25 working scripts that cover three skills (woodcutting, mining, fishing). Keep in mind more can be added at any time, and we're always working on new skills when we have time.

MSI is 99% of SRL's script usage at this point and is only going to continue to grow.

I would say it would be pretty hard to argue the fact that MSI is not appealing. At the same time, MSI wouldn't be much without Reflection right now so please, do follow through with your idea's.

Wanted

2010-09-29 19:09:22

Markus just to clarify, "when the Runetek 5 update came around and reflection was broken for a couple of (months?). " that was 18 months.

I feel like some people don't realize times are different now, the argument that reflection is still rejected is irrelevant to the present and future as that hasn't been the case for years. Anyone that doesn't want to see a spec of reflection at the SRL forums has since left, gone inactive, or changed their opinion.

Reflection does not belong in the SRL include.

Hybridization isn't easy, but it can be done externally outside of the SRL include.

Go ahead, invite more talent people to work on reflection. I wasn't aware anyone was trying to stop that.

Nava2

2010-09-29 19:15:11

If people want access to the SvN, they can PM me.

I want proof they will do good things with it though, thus those who are SRL+ if possible.

BenLand100

2010-09-29 20:08:48

From: Markus
Reflection used to be frowned upon at SRL. Back when the first SRL Reflection extension in the form of KYAB came upon us, there already was a group of pro-KYAB (which I was part of) and anti-KYAB. Because of issues of leaking this 'too powerful' tool it was kept inside SRL members. But even more issues arose and Solarwind moved KYAB to their own separate forums where they managed to stay alive for some time. They also cracked Nexus Pro, a shitload of payscripts and some other stuff and the community flourished for some time until Solarwind became the douchebag we still know him for.

Well, for historical accuracy, I've been the silent/background figure in most (all?) of the SCAR related reflection things. I was the first person, afaik, to refer to "passively grabbing data from the runescape client" as 'reflection' (after the package java.lang.reflect). I wrote KYAB basically by myself, but Solarwind got me interested in it, so I let him run with it (in retrospect a bad idea, I was inactive at the time, and he seemed nice enough to me over MSN). KYAB basically ceased to function once I stopped developing it, though he did try to write a new one xKYAB when I didn't give him my updater because he was being an asshat, but it failed miserably. Course I did the reflection stuff in SMART. I started the base of the first Reflection.scar, of which Bobarkinator did most of the maintenance on. I was also knowledge-base/encyclopedia/bytecode-editor/troubleshooter for Drags when he did his stuff recently. So, yea…

My two cents? Nobody has the stamina/drive to maintain reflection by themselves, or even on a small team. In addition, since its more than just programming involved, ESPECIALLY when things break, for some reason most people simply can't learn to do it. Its a practice/exposure skill that I happen to be very good at simply because I've been around since before client hacking started, and I've participated in it. Drags managed to jump in late and get a pretty good feel for things, but VERY few people seem to be able to do that.

Reflection is nice, its just a bitch to maintain. I don't think it should be an official part of SRL for that reason. But I'm glad people are still interested in using it. Its a wonderful, yet very complicated, tool.

Coh3n

2010-09-30 00:42:20

From: Naike
What does MSI have to do with us being appealing?
We got one big script? Woah..

No offense, but you should really take a look at things before you criticize them. You obviously have no idea what MSI has to offer.

Naike

2010-09-30 03:20:09

From: Coh3n
No offense, but you should really take a look at things before you criticize them. You obviously have no idea what MSI has to offer.


You're missing the point, we got one big script?
Do you really think that is enough?

The Claw

2010-09-30 03:34:18

Hang on…..this argument again? Really? lol

Naike

2010-09-30 04:49:22

From: Nava2
If people want access to the SvN, they can PM me.

I want proof they will do good things with it though, thus those who are SRL+ if possible.


Could I have access..
Do I need a googlecode account?

Coh3n

2010-09-30 12:48:20

From: Naike
You're missing the point, we got one big script?
Do you really think that is enough?

I think it's much better. Users download one script and they have 25 locations and 3 skills to choose from. And it's just getting started…

Naike

2010-09-30 15:16:43

From: Coh3n
I think it's much better. Users download one script and they have 25 locations and 3 skills to choose from. And it's just getting started…


You didn't answer my question..

NCDS

2010-09-30 15:20:01

From: Naike
You didn't answer my question..


No, I don't think it's 'enough', but a handful of people are only capable of so much.

Coh3n

2010-09-30 18:31:21

From: Naike
You didn't answer my question..

By "I think it's much better", I meant I think it's more than enough, plus it's more convenient for users. If put a full day (8 hours), I could easily add a few skills, plus 4-5 locations for that skill. That's how easy it is.

25 scripts is a lot. I don't think having reflection part of SRL would make a difference on the number of scripts written, but you never know.

Naike

2010-10-01 03:14:36

From: Coh3n
By "I think it's much better", I meant I think it's more than enough, plus it's more convenient for users. If put a full day (8 hours), I could easily add a few skills, plus 4-5 locations for that skill. That's how easy it is.

25 scripts is a lot. I don't think having reflection part of SRL would make a difference on the number of scripts written, but you never know.


I do agree that MSI is a great project, very well written..
But it's not enough, not close to be enough, for a whole community to just have one big script, and a few "extras"..

Having reflection would make the script scene a lot easier? or everyone stopped saying that these days, as that's for this whole idea?

NCDS

2010-10-01 14:34:28

Of course having Reflection would make scripting easier. That's a fact, no matter what anyone want's to argue.

Coh3n

2010-10-01 14:39:40

From: Naike
Having reflection would make the script scene a lot easier?

We still have it, it's just not within SRL. People still have the choice to use it, there just isn't anyone to steadily maintain it. I don't really see how having it in SRL would change that. :unsure:

Naike

2010-10-02 10:03:23

From: Coh3n
We still have it, it's just not within SRL. People still have the choice to use it, there just isn't anyone to steadily maintain it. I don't really see how having it in SRL would change that. :unsure:


Then we would have a stable include. As we would be force to expand our knowledge, and invite more people.

NCDS

2010-10-03 00:37:06

From: Naike
Then we would have a stable include. As we would be force to expand our knowledge, and invite more people.


You see, I disagree with that. We have a perfectly stable include, when we have active dev's. That clearly is not the current situation, though there is nothing wrong with our color include, it's simply not properly maintained, and that's really all there is to it.

Naike

2010-10-03 07:58:24

From: NCDS
You see, I disagree with that. We have a perfectly stable include, when we have active dev's. That clearly is not the current situation, though there is nothing wrong with our color include, it's simply not properly maintained, and that's really all there is to it.


We have no developers at all @ Reflection.

I really don't see why everybody hates it so much, but I'll scratch this idea, and do what I can instead.
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59279

^

NCDS

2010-10-03 20:16:16

I'm really not hating on Reflection and please, no one take it that way, I just have to agree that I don't see how it would be any more useful included in SRL.

Naike

2010-10-04 04:36:58

From: NCDS
I'm really not hating on Reflection and please, no one take it that way, I just have to agree that I don't see how it would be any more useful included in SRL.


For the love of braincells, explain why?
How could something being as powerful as reflection not be useful?

Being a lot of work is another thing or hard to maintain, but not useful?

NCDS

2010-10-04 10:37:34

From: Naike
For the love of braincells, explain why?
How could something being as powerful as reflection not be useful?

Being a lot of work is another thing or hard to maintain, but not useful?


I didn't say it wasn't useful.. I said it would be any more useful being included in SRL, than it already is.

ZephyrsFury

2010-10-04 11:53:32

Having reflection in SRL would bring it further out of date.
1. The majority of SRL developers have no interest in the development of the reflection include.
2. We already have enough maintaining SRL4 and developing SRL 5.
3. Many SRL developer's don't have the expertise to developer reflection.
4. There's still the problem of updating hooks which reflection being in SRL would have no effect on.

My Suggestions:
1. If reflection is to be fully supported developer's need to be acknowledged with a reflection developer cup.
2. Get a few people who know about the RS client to help teach us about maintaining/expanding hooks updaters. The one in the reflection repos is quite limited.
3. Developer's need to be active enough to at least commit new hooks.
4. The include needs to be expanded. There are many hooks that could be used in very useful functions that are simply not used at the moment.
5. After that we need people to write or update scripts.

The MAIN problem with SRL reflection is that too few people know how to keep the core functions working. Historically only 1 or 2 people at a time can update hooks. And when they go inactive or busy, the include fast goes out of date.

Naike

2010-10-04 14:43:28

From: ZephyrsFury
Having reflection in SRL would bring it further out of date.
1. The majority of SRL developers have no interest in the development of the reflection include.
2. We already have enough maintaining SRL4 and developing SRL 5.
3. Many SRL developer's don't have the expertise to developer reflection.
4. There's still the problem of updating hooks which reflection being in SRL would have no effect on.

My Suggestions:
1. If reflection is to be fully supported developer's need to be acknowledged with a reflection developer cup.
2. Get a few people who know about the RS client to help teach us about maintaining/expanding hooks updaters. The one in the reflection repos is quite limited.
3. Developer's need to be active enough to at least commit new hooks.
4. The include needs to be expanded. There are many hooks that could be used in very useful functions that are simply not used at the moment.
5. After that we need people to write or update scripts.

The MAIN problem with SRL reflection is that too few people know how to keep the core functions working. Historically only 1 or 2 people at a time can update hooks. And when they go inactive or busy, the include fast goes out of date.


I now understand, thanks for clearing up some parts.
Now I know which goals I just try to achieve with developing the reflection include.

BraK

2010-10-05 18:08:42

I noticed quite a few People trying to learn how to use/work on it. The tutorials were way out of date and when I posted on one that something didn't work. All that happen was that I got to the tutorial was outdated and then closed. No answers came from it and I got tired of waiting for someone to tell how and where to start learning. If you want Reflection to get activity write a few Tutorials and Keep them Up to Date. Teaching will lead to the growth of the project as a whole. Not everyone will understand but the few that do will bring up the base on which you have to work with. SRL wasn't Built by the few. Nor has it been maintain that way.

~BraK

n3ss3s

2010-10-11 22:10:29

My 2 cents concerning msi reflection and everything: fuck the glorious new age shit u got going on like MSI and how easy it will be to make very large scripts when it's finished and w/e, I haven't bought any scripts of theirs, but why people think of rsbots.net when you say botting, is that they have solid scripts, and their reflection stays down for what 20 minutes when it does. If anyone is looking to make SRL a big community with new people, you gotta give people what they want. Ur either a big community with uber scripts, propably leechers and stuff but hey, or then ur some shitty college project that utilizes cool development tools that dont really mean for shit if u have ur head up ure ass k

NCDS

2010-10-11 22:15:23

From: n3ss3s
My 2 cents concerning msi reflection and everything: fuck the glorious new age shit u got going on like MSI and how easy it will be to make very large scripts when it's finished and w/e, I haven't bought any scripts of theirs, but why people think of rsbots.net when you say botting, is that they have solid scripts, and their reflection stays down for what 20 minutes when it does. If anyone is looking to make SRL a big community with new people, you gotta give people what they want. Ur either a big community with uber scripts, propably leechers and stuff but hey, or then ur some shitty college project that utilizes cool development tools that dont really mean for shit if u have ur head up ure ass k


What's wrong with MSI? and how did that get brought into this?

The Claw

2010-10-12 03:34:41

From: n3ss3s
My 2 cents concerning msi reflection and everything: fuck the glorious new age shit u got going on like MSI and how easy it will be to make very large scripts when it's finished and w/e, I haven't bought any scripts of theirs, but why people think of rsbots.net when you say botting, is that they have solid scripts, and their reflection stays down for what 20 minutes when it does. If anyone is looking to make SRL a big community with new people, you gotta give people what they want. Ur either a big community with uber scripts, propably leechers and stuff but hey, or then ur some shitty college project that utilizes cool development tools that dont really mean for shit if u have ur head up ure ass k


BAM
:stirthepot:

Naike

2010-10-12 06:42:37

Sad thing is, that n3ss3s is actually right. lol.

The Claw

2010-10-12 07:24:44

Fully agreed…said it better than the way I've been trying to.

EvilChicken!

2010-10-12 08:20:13

From: NCDS
What's wrong with MSI? and how did that get brought into this?


Mainly because SRL is all about MSI nowadays..

The Claw

2010-10-12 08:32:29

I think its interesting how pretty much the only people continually pushing MSI and who are agaisnt reflection are the people with the big shiny (annoying and distracting) flying bird cups and special titles

BraK

2010-10-12 10:11:43

From: EvilChicken!
Mainly because SRL is all about MSI nowadays..


I have to disagree SRL isn't all about MSI nowadays. People are supporting MSI because there is a constant flow of new and working scripts. Thanks to Cohen, R Magician, NCDS and a few others including some Junior Members MSI has it's Bugs Being fixed in a timely manner. They are constantly trying to add new Scripts doing more. SRL IMHO isn't all about MSI, MSI is all about SRL. The topic at hand was also Reflection. Which in comparison to MSI has a lot less support. Why is this because there are very few people working on it. Why can't it get some fresh people to work on it. Because until recently no working tutorials or info on how to do anything existed. SRL has always been about making Scripting easier by making a better include. Improving our chances at staying alive. Our ban rate is pretty low compared to what it used to be so all in all I'd say we're doing pretty good.

From: The Claw
I think its interesting how pretty much the only people continually pushing MSI and who are agaisnt reflection are the people with the big shiny (annoying and distracting) flying bird cups and special titles


Because your attacking a script that is maintained by multiple people thus it's staying active. Pretty sure I'm not against reflection. I help test the stuff as it comes out as I have a lack of knowledge in it's programming.

~BraK

NCDS

2010-10-12 17:27:09

So we're in the wrong because we made a powerful AIO script that people use?

From: The Claw
I think its interesting how pretty much the only people continually pushing MSI and who are agaisnt reflection are the people with the big shiny (annoying and distracting) flying bird cups and special titles

Against Reflection..? We use it..

I think its interesting how pretty much the only people continually down talking MSI aren't even active..

To be honest, The Claw and n3ss3s, do you even know what MSI is..?

I would love for someone to provide me with a good reason as to why MSI is such a bad thing.

Nava2

2010-10-12 17:40:54

I'd like to see what this MSI discussion has to do with reflection?

Take it somewhere else. There are higher boards which we all have access too where this could be discussed. Namely: http://villavu.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=272

Coh3n

2010-10-12 20:58:47

From: Nava2
I'd like to see what this MSI discussion has to do with reflection?

Take it somewhere else. There are higher boards which we all have access too where this could be discussed. Namely: http://villavu.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=272

http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=742728#post742728

n3ss3s

2010-10-13 00:12:04

Now keep in mind that I have no idea how

From: The Claw
Hang on…..this argument again? Really? lol


______________________________________________________________

To be honest, The Claw and n3ss3s, do you even know what MSI is..?


A MIRACLE!! That just summarized my whole miniature wall of text into one question! Now I'm of course assuming it to be (or will be) a massive include sort of thing that allows you to make (and includes) AIO scripts of some sort. o wait dats wat it stands for r0fl

Also, whoever asked how did I bring MSI into this completely missed my point. Does MSI include, or does it at the moment contribute to a script(s), that everyone wants? Don't think so, atleast last time I checked. (Please don't tell me about an excellent stable Draynor Willow Cutter, I'm afraid I don't have a counter argument if someone still manages to bomb that shit at me.) If there is one, is it so stable and efficient that people want to use SRL instead of RSBot?


Wizzup said something about reflection being pretty well supported, and it seems to be. If what you guys mean as reflection being official meaning you have a working updater, and don't wanna get mixed up in that urself, go over to mopar and lick butts, 1 or da other. There's your official reflection.


TL;DR - If you want SRL to be popular, concentrate on relevant things. I'm pretty sure you guys have already pretty much let go of the color philosophy stuff, good. The end user DOES NOT care if that juicy stake didn't own much land, u know what I mean? If you can make solid scripts with color only that honestly can compete with RSBot and rsbots.net, then make some solid color scripts, pump a vid or 2 on YT, say that ur color only and it's in a mysterious way less detectable than reflection. If you want to really have working scripts, do what it takes to have ur "official" reflection, and make reflection scripts

NCDS

2010-10-13 00:20:11

From: n3ss3s
Now keep in mind that I have no idea how



______________________________________________________________



A MIRACLE!! That just summarized my whole miniature wall of text into one question! Now I'm of course assuming it to be (or will be) a massive include sort of thing that allows you to make (and includes) AIO scripts of some sort. o wait dats wat it stands for r0fl

Also, whoever asked how did I bring MSI into this completely missed my point. Does MSI include, or does it at the moment contribute to a script(s), that everyone wants? Don't think so, atleast last time I checked. (Please don't tell me about an excellent stable Draynor Willow Cutter, I'm afraid I don't have a counter argument if someone still manages to bomb that shit at me.) If there is one, is it so stable and efficient that people want to use SRL instead of RSBot?


Wizzup said something about reflection being pretty well supported, and it seems to be. If what you guys mean as reflection being official meaning you have a working updater, and don't wanna get mixed up in that urself, go over to mopar and lick butts, 1 or da other. There's your official reflection.


TL;DR - If you want SRL to be popular, concentrate on relevant things. I'm pretty sure you guys have already pretty much let go of the color philosophy stuff, good. The end user DOES NOT care if that juicy stake didn't own much land, u know what I mean? If you can make solid scripts with color only that honestly can compete with RSBot and rsbots.net, then make some solid color scripts, pump a vid or 2 on YT, say that ur color only and it's in a mysterious way less detectable than reflection. If you want to really have working scripts, do what it takes to have ur "official" reflection, and make reflection scripts


You have the most senseless argument. MSI is a script!. Why don't you read something before making accusations?

MSI supports multiple locations and multiple skills. The user simply inputs what they want their characters to do in DeclarePlayers in RunMe.Simba. It's in an include form for organization. MSI uses reflection for walking.

Get it?

Edit: There is another thread to post in as well..

Coh3n

2010-10-13 00:31:16

From: n3ss3s
A MIRACLE!! That just summarized my whole miniature wall of text into one question! Now I'm of course assuming it to be (or will be) a massive include sort of thing that allows you to make (and includes) AIO scripts of some sort. o wait dats wat it stands for r0fl

You just proved his point - you don't know what MSI is. You also made yourself look like an idiot trying to be a smartass about it.

From: n3ss3s

Also, whoever asked how did I bring MSI into this completely missed my point. Does MSI include, or does it at the moment contribute to a script(s), that everyone wants? Don't think so, atleast last time I checked. (Please don't tell me about an excellent stable Draynor Willow Cutter, I'm afraid I don't have a counter argument if someone still manages to bomb that shit at me.) If there is one, is it so stable and efficient that people want to use SRL instead of RSBot?

There's actually 3 skills and a total of 26 different locations the user can choose from. Who said anything about what EVERYONE wants? Name one thing that EVERYONE wants.

From: n3ss3s

TL;DR - If you want SRL to be popular, concentrate on relevant things. I'm pretty sure you guys have already pretty much let go of the color philosophy stuff, good. The end user DOES NOT care if that juicy stake didn't own much land, u know what I mean? If you can make solid scripts with color only that honestly can compete with RSBot and rsbots.net, then make some solid color scripts, pump a vid or 2 on YT, say that ur color only and it's in a mysterious way less detectable than reflection. If you want to really have working scripts, do what it takes to have ur "official" reflection, and make reflection scripts

I think it's safe to say that not many people here want to be like RSBot. It's not a competition, if it were, we'd be blown out of the water (by more than just RSBot). I don't think SRL is about being the best RS cheating community, it's more about learning (just my opinion anyway).

E: http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=742728#post742728

The Claw

2010-10-13 01:21:03

And again, its the people who are in MSI who are the ones talking it up.

From: NCDS
To be honest, The Claw and n3ss3s, do you even know what MSI is..?


Ah, of course WE'RE the ignorant ones, right? You guys didnt see the upper ranks before MSI and how work got done then. Basically MSI has been a thing for new people to say "yeah good omg amazing", do a bit of work, then get promoted, and pass off the work to others while trying to convince everyone else to do work, that the work done has been good, and that you guys are super scripters or something.

How many new users has MSI brought to SRL? Oh ok, none. Cool.
How many threads have there been where you guys circle jerk each other while criticising everyone else and while trying to convince everyone to join your ranks? Many.

How about, if you all think that the people agaisnt MSI dont know what it is, YOU tell US what it is. WE'VE all seen RM's post, RM's sig, RM's threads, everyone elses threads, and yet we're apparantly more misinformed than the people IN MSI? You guys keeping secrets from the public or something?

Whenever someone critiscises MSI - MSI - "omg do you even know what it is" Outsider: "Yes." MSI: "lol no you don't /thread" without actually telling us what you think MSI is.

Which begs the question: Do the people in MSI actually know what MSI is? I don't think they do - its just one of many hundreds if not thousands of scripts available. Its nothing special. Its not the saviour or some shit lol.

Prove me wrong. In before "no U prove ME wrong you dont even know what this is :unsure:" :spongebob:

Interested in hearing Sir R. Magician's take on this, or does defending MSI get delegated to the lower ranks just like everything else

Just to clear this up, I don't think MSI has been pointless or useless or anything, and what has been done is good. But you guys are all going nuts about it and thinking its the only thing thats important or worthy or something.

Coh3n

2010-10-13 02:17:58

From: The Claw
Ah, of course WE'RE the ignorant ones, right? You guys didnt see the upper ranks before MSI and how work got done then. Basically MSI has been a thing for new people to say "yeah good omg amazing", do a bit of work, then get promoted, and pass off the work to others while trying to convince everyone else to do work, that the work done has been good, and that you guys are super scripters or something.

Yep, I did a little work, got promoted to Dev, stopped working, got promoted to Mod and continued to not to anything. Have I ever said I think I'm an amazing scripter? Have I ever said I'm smarter than anyone? No. There have been several people that have done a little (some a lot of) work for MSI. Were they promoted? No. They received a cup, the same as if someone were to do something for SRL.

From: The Claw

How many new users has MSI brought to SRL? Oh ok, none. Cool.

How do you know that no one outside of SRL has heard of MSI and decided to come check it out? Have you talked to every new user we've had since MSI was publicly released?

From: The Claw

How many threads have there been where you guys circle jerk each other while criticising everyone else and while trying to convince everyone to join your ranks? Many.

Please, find some examples because I don't recall any. I've never (or recall another SL) criticized someone else's work, saying mine (or anyone else's) is better. I also don't remember convincing anyone to become a part of MSI. Aside from Zyt3x and 3Garrett3, anyone that's a part of MSI has been there from the beginning.

From: The Claw

How about, if you all think that the people agaisnt MSI dont know what it is, YOU tell US what it is. WE'VE all seen RM's post, RM's sig, RM's threads, everyone elses threads, and yet we're apparantly more misinformed than the people IN MSI? You guys keeping secrets from the public or something?

http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56614
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56279
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57911
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58881

I'm interested to know why you guys are against it, or don't like it? I haven't heard any negativity toward MSI until n3ss3s's post.

From: The Claw

Whenever someone critiscises MSI - MSI - "omg do you even know what it is" Outsider: "Yes." MSI: "lol no you don't /thread" without actually telling us what you think MSI is.

Which begs the question: Do the people in MSI actually know what MSI is? I don't think they do

See above links, it's explained well enough in the first link. There are a few others, but I can't be bothered to get them all right now.

From: The Claw

- its just one of many hundreds if not thousands of scripts available. Its nothing special. Its not the saviour or some shit lol.

Who said it was? And I don't recall there ever being that many scripts available here. Do I think it's one of the best scripts SRL has every had? Yes, at least as long as I've been here. In my mind, that's something special. If you don't think so, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, I'm not going to criticize you for it.

From: The Claw

Interested in hearing Sir R. Magician's take on this, or does defending MSI get delegated to the lower ranks just like everything else

Lower ranks? I'm the MSI Leader, I can't get any higher. I should be the one defending MSI, not RM. Since when do ranks matter when it comes to personal opinion anyway? Everyone's opinions should be taken into consideration whether it's from myself, RM, NCDS or a Registered User.

From: The Claw

Just to clear this up, I don't think MSI has been pointless or useless or anything, and what has been done is good. But you guys are all going nuts about it and thinking its the only thing thats important or worthy or something.

I probably overreacted, but I never said (or meant to say) it's the only thing important. If someone were to make a Reflection Varrock East Miner that worked much better than MSI, I wouldn't advise them to use something that's inferior. I'm not like that. I would ask them for feedback as to what would bring MSI up to the next level, but never say MSI is better if it's clearly not.

What angered me is the unnecessary bashing of MSI. n3ss3s, no offense, but there was absolutely no reason for you to criticize MSI to get your point across. I'm interested to know if you would have said the same thing if MSI was 100% reflection.

@The Claw: I think this whole thing started when you said:
From: The Claw
I think its interesting how pretty much the only people continually pushing MSI and who are agaisnt reflection are the people with the big shiny (annoying and distracting) flying bird cups and special titles

I took offense to that (as you read in the other thread). I apologize for that, it was unnecessary. I may have read too much into it, but it seemed like you were saying that the people pushing MSI are also against reflection. I'm not sure if you knew we used reflection or not, but we heavily rely on it for 99% of our locations.

I'm not against reflection. I actually started making a Herb & Flower Farmer in reflection before it broke (a year+ ago). It's easy, reliable and there's not much you can't do with it. I have nothing against it, other than there's the chance it could go outdated for long periods of time. Is it likely to happen again anytime soon? Probably not, but you never know.

I'm not going to lie, if I wasn't part of MSI, I would probably have tried to develop reflection further (like Naike is now) back when Drags/j_pizzle/Benland and whoever else fixed it.

When RM first restarted MSI, we discussed Reflection vs. Color and which would be better. I think one of the main points was that we wanted to prove that great scripts could be made in color. At the time, walking was easily doable. It's still doable now, but when the minimap was updated, it made things significantly more difficult and no one really had the time properly develop 1000 color walking paths.

Sometimes our hooks are outdated for a few minutes, sometimes a few days. We wanted our users to still be able to use some scripts (Powerchopper, Powerminer, Powerfisher and some walking scripts that require only a few points) during that downtime. I just wanted to clear up why we use color and that we're not against reflection.

BraK

2010-10-13 03:39:00

From: The Claw

How many new users has MSI brought to SRL? Oh ok, none. Cool.
How many threads have there been where you guys circle jerk each other while criticising everyone else and while trying to convince everyone to join your ranks? Many.


Please try to be civil and keep the offensive statements out of the forum. Also can we get the Thread Back on topic. You guys are High jacking Naike's Thread for a discussion that has nothing to do with the original Topic.

From: Naike
Why don't we start supporting reflection now that SMART is open source? :)

If we care, and don't push it out at every end of the forum, people would actually help out.. (As in, people with updaters)

Thoughts?


Reflection is making good progress at the moment. Looks like you've gathered some support of a few people that are interested in making it better.

~BraK

The Claw

2010-10-13 03:50:46

I also didn't mean to offend anyone, sorry if I did. I think you guys are taking this as personal attacks when I'm just trying to point something out.

I'm not saying that you guys are all "agaisnt" reflection, it just seems that the general attitude now is that MSI is the be-all end-all of RS cheating and that we literally don't need to do anything else. Sure, its a great concept. But when Wizzup was making Simba for example, you didn't see him making 1 million threads asking for help and pushing his ideas, he just made a seperate forum and hardly talked about it anywhere else apart from 1 or 2 threads, then Simba came out and it wasn't pushed or anything - just talked about when relevant. Simba developers don't even have a rank, Simba has done a LOT more for SRL than MSI will, required a LOT more work and team-work, and yet theres not even anything close to a Simba-Developer cup. Yet theres all this hype about a simple concept script which isn't even finished.

It's not about a negative attack on MSI because obviously a do-everything script would be sweet, in fact the current MSI is largely built off mine and Boreas's ideas that we posted in SSRL a few months ago but didn't have the time to proceed with. So I'm obviously not agaisnt the main idea behind MSI. RM basically merged the existing MSI, my idea, Boreas's idea, and his idea. It's more about the attitude that seems to go with the MSI…this one:

From: Coh3n
I'm not going to lie, if I wasn't part of MSI, I would probably have tried to develop reflection further (like Naike is now) back when Drags/j_pizzle/Benland and whoever else fixed it.


From: NCDS
MSI uses Reflection for walking and it works great. Is there really any other need for it?


We don't NEED a big script, it would be cool, but big deal if we have it. The framework is more important. SRL itself is in a poor state and Reflection is as close to being eradicated as always, since theres not many people active who know what theyre doing and theres no tutorials. And including Reflection in SRL does no harm whatsoever.

Everyone in MSI is just like "MSI MSI MSI" and forgets about everything else. I can't really talk about activity since I'm not very active these days (no time) but if you're going to put in effort, put it where it's needed…not on some pipe-dream that won't achieve much at all.

The two best scripts ever: Wizzups Essence, and Sudoku. They didn't need MSI and MSI will never beat what those scripts did for us and SRL, regardless of if MSI has more hours use or whatever.

And do you really think new members want to read through a whole heap of stuff, learn all the acronyms, how to set up MSI, what MSI actually is, be continually bombarded with "YOU CAN ALWAYS CONTRIBUTE TO MSI" etc. No, they want to download a program, press run, and auto. It's not like the people agaisnt MSI havent been paying attention, we all know whats going on, and yet you guys all still say we dont understand it properly. If the very developers of SRL can't fully gather whats going on then I don't think its very user-friendly.

And how would you advertise it - "Hey we have a BIG SCRIPT!". The response to that is "so what, I can download singular, simple, flawless scripts from RSBots or anywhere else and run them in 2 minutes".

I guess my main point is that MSI is a pipe-dream and alot of people are getting caught up in it while the backbones of SRL and reflection get neglected. Because of "omg super script".

PS:

From: Coh3n
What angered me is the unnecessary bashing of MSI. n3ss3s, no offense, but there was absolutely no reason for you to criticize MSI to get your point across. I'm interested to know if you would have said the same thing if MSI was 100% reflection.


I think if MSI was really as good as you all say it is then you wouldn't of been angered or offended by n3ss3s, me, or anyone else. For example if solarwind came back and told Benland that reflection is rubbish, I don't think he'd really care.

Edit - sorry for long post lol

WT-Fakawi

2010-10-13 09:00:29

You are all doing better than most World Leaders! Good words.

NCDS

2010-10-13 12:58:22

I can't seem to see the "shitty attitude" of MSI?
From: The Claw

Everyone in MSI is just like "MSI MSI MSI" and forgets about everything else. I can't really talk about activity since I'm not very active these days (no time) but if you're going to put in effort, put it where it's needed…not on some pipe-dream that won't achieve much at all.

When was the last time you looked in the Public SVN forum? You should probably do that..

Also, who would want to come to an RS cheating community that has < 5 working scripts?

From: The Claw

The two best scripts ever: Wizzups Essence, and Sudoku. They didn't need MSI and MSI will never beat what those scripts did for us and SRL, regardless of if MSI has more hours use or whatever.

You don't know that as more thing's have yet to be added, and it still seems like you don't really know what MSI is..

From: The Claw

And do you really think new members want to read through a whole heap of stuff, learn all the acronyms, how to set up MSI, what MSI actually is, be continually bombarded with "YOU CAN ALWAYS CONTRIBUTE TO MSI" etc. No, they want to download a program, press run, and auto. It's not like the people agaisnt MSI havent been paying attention, we all know whats going on, and yet you guys all still say we dont understand it properly. If the very developers of SRL can't fully gather whats going on then I don't think its very user-friendly.

If you paid as much attention as you claim to you would have seen the thread about MSI_SetupPlayer and how it is being reorganized to make it more simple.

From: The Claw

And how would you advertise it - "Hey we have a BIG SCRIPT!". The response to that is "so what, I can download singular, simple, flawless scripts from RSBots or anywhere else and run them in 2 minutes".

It's an AIO script. What is so hard to understand about that?

From: The Claw

I guess my main point is that MSI is a pipe-dream and alot of people are getting caught up in it while the backbones of SRL and reflection get neglected. Because of "omg super script".

Again, perhaps you should read over the forums a bit before coming at us with such an uneducated argument. MSI is a script, would you be saying the same thing to someone who had just released a number of working scripts?

From: The Claw

I think if MSI was really as good as you all say it is then you wouldn't of been angered or offended by n3ss3s, me, or anyone else. For example if solarwind came back and told Benland that reflection is rubbish, I don't think he'd really care.

I don't get offended by people not liking, or not using MSI. I get offended when people try and down talk MSI by making senseless points that really just prove they don't know what they're talking about.

Boreas

2010-10-13 13:45:24

So would this summary be correct?

Everyone agrees:
- More effort into SRL include is good
- More activity on SRL forum in general is good (more scripts, more users, more testing, more learning)
- More effort into Reflection include is good

Some people argue that:
- If less effort was put into MSI, more effort would be put into SRL/Reflection include

Some people argue that:
- Effort put into MSI is justified

Naike

2010-10-13 16:59:23

Seems like this is a sensitive spot still..
I'm not going to give my opinion, as I have none and will just simply stay with developing the includes.. you can do all the talking, but as-long as you don't release scripts/develop then I don't really think you have the right to complain about the stuff being broken ect..

Edit:

From: Coh3n
Sometimes our hooks are outdated for a few minutes, sometimes a few days. We wanted our users to still be able to use some scripts (Powerchopper, Powerminer, Powerfisher and some walking scripts that require only a few points) during that downtime. I just wanted to clear up why we use color and that we're not against reflection.


Btw, does days are over now :)
We work hard at each update (has been two? three? updates?) and the core was done way before RsBot or any other bot was.

Sir R. M8gic1an

2010-10-14 19:21:40

This made for a very interesting read.

Very interesting indeed.

Why does MSI go around each other in ego brushing circles?
Because there's enough work to brush our egos with.
Because when we brush our egos more people might want to join in.
And because those egos do deserve some brushing.

Claw, have a read through this:

Function MSI_FindObjectsTPA(Var Objs: TPointArray; ObjID: integer; SearchBox: TBox): Boolean;
Var
TPA, TempTPA: TPointArray;
ATPA: T2DPointArray;
I, II, CTS, TMP, H: Integer;
Box: TBox;
Boxes: TBoxArray;
Animating2: TBooleanArray;
BadPoint: Boolean;
Begin
If (Not LoggedIn) Then Exit;

CTS := GetColorToleranceSpeed;
ColorToleranceSpeed(2);
SetColorSpeed2Modifiers(MSI_Objects[objID].Hue, MSI_Objects[objID].Sat);
Box := IntToBox(228, 150, 275, 200);

H := High(MSI_Objects[objID].Colors);
SetLength(ATPA, H + 1);

For I := 0 To H Do
FindColorsSpiralTolerance(MSCX, MSCY, ATPA[I], MSI_Objects[objID].Colors[I], SearchBox.X1, SearchBox.Y1, SearchBox.X2, SearchBox.Y2, MSI_Objects[objID].Tol);

ColorToleranceSpeed(CTS);
SetColorSpeed2Modifiers(0.2, 0.2);

{ Check if some of the colors was not on MS. }
If MSI_Objects[objID].FindAllColors Then
For I := 0 To H Do
If (Length(ATPA) < 1) Then
Begin
MSI_SubDebug('MSI_FindObjectsTPA: All colors weren''t found!');
Objs := [];
Exit;
End;

{ Check if we have enough pixels on MS. }
TPA := MergeATPA(ATPA);

If (Length(TPA) < MSI_Objects[objID].Accuracy) Then
Begin
MSI_SubDebug('MSI_FindObjectsTPA: No colors found!');
Objs := [];
Exit;
End;

ATPA := TPAtoATPAEx(TPA, MSI_Objects[objID].W, MSI_Objects[objID].H);
SortATPAFrom(ATPA, Point(MSCX, MSCY));
H := High(ATPA);
SetLength(TPA, H + 1);

if DEBUG_SMART then
DrawDotsMulti(true, ATPA);

For I := 0 To H Do
TPA[I] := MiddleTPA(ATPA[I]);

H := High(TPA);
SetLength(Boxes, H + 1);

For I := 0 To H Do
Begin
Boxes[I].X1 := TPA[I].X - (MSI_Objects[objID].W / 2);
Boxes[I].Y1 := TPA[I].Y - (MSI_Objects[objID].H / 2);
Boxes[I].X2 := TPA[I].X + (MSI_Objects[objID].W / 2);
Boxes[I].Y2 := TPA[I].Y + (MSI_Objects[objID].H / 2);
End;

If MSI_Objects[objID].Anim Then
Animating2 := AnimatingMulti(Boxes, 100, 1);

For I := 0 To High(TPA) Do
Begin
BadPoint := False;
//DrawBox(Boxes[I], 200);

{ Animation }
If (Not BadPoint) Then
If MSI_Objects[objID].Anim Then
If (Not Animating2[I]) Then
Begin
MSI_SubDebug('MSI_FindObjectsTPA: Not animating!');
BadPoint := True;
End;

{ Exclude own character }
If (Not BadPoint) Then
If MSI_Objects[objID].ExcludeSelf Then
If PointInBox(TPA[I], Box) Then
Begin
MSI_SubDebug('MSI_FindObjectsTPA: Own character!');
BadPoint := True;
End;

{ Invalid point }
If (Not BadPoint) Then
If ((TPA[I].X + TPA[I].Y) < 1) Then
Begin
MSI_SubDebug('MSI_FindObjectsTPA: Invalid point!');
BadPoint := True;
End;

{ Accuracy }
If (Not BadPoint) Then
If (Length(ATPA[I]) < MSI_Objects[objID].Accuracy) Then
Begin
MSI_SubDebug('MSI_FindObjectsTPA: Not enough points!');
BadPoint := True;
End;

{ Bad colors }
If (Not BadPoint) Then
For II := 0 To High(MSI_Objects[objID].BadColors) Do
Begin
MSI_SubDebug('MSI_FindObjectsTPA: Looking for bad color: '+IntToStr(MSI_Objects[objID].BadColors[II]));
If FindColorSpiralTolerance(TMP, TMP, MSI_Objects[objID].BadColors[II], TPA[I].X - (MSI_Objects[objID].W / 2), TPA[I].Y - (MSI_Objects[objID].H / 2), TPA[I].X + (MSI_Objects[objID].W / 2), TPA[I].Y + (MSI_Objects[objID].H / 2), MSI_Objects[objID].BadColorTolerance) Then
Begin
MSI_SubDebug('MSI_FindObjectsTPA: Bad color found!');
BadPoint := True;
Break;
End;
End;

{ FindAllColors }
If (Not BadPoint) Then
If MSI_Objects[objID].FindAllColors Then
For II := 0 To H Do
Begin
TempTPA := MSI_ReturnPointsInBox(ATPA[II], IntToBox(TPA[I].X - (MSI_Objects[objID].W / 2), TPA[I].Y - (MSI_Objects[objID].H / 2), TPA[I].X + (MSI_Objects[objID].W / 2), TPA[I].Y + (MSI_Objects[objID].H / 2)));
If (Length(TempTPA) < 1) Then
Begin
MSI_SubDebug('MSI_FindObjectsTPA: All colors weren''t found!');
BadPoint := True;
Break;
End;
End;

{ Valid point! }
If (Not BadPoint) Then
Begin
SetLength(Objs, Length(Objs) + 1);
Objs[High(Objs)] := TPA[I];
End;
End;

Result := (Length(Objs) > 0);
End;

Now, to Keep It Simply Stupid, this is an object finder. A bit more advanced than FindObjTPA and FindObjCustom.

This object finder is used in all 26 MSI Scripts. Therefore all 26 scripts have better object finding than any script using SRL's Object finders.

Now, as you are most likely aware, I have talked of getting MSI code included into SRL.
Why?
- It is new & fresh
- It is of High Quality

MSI was founded as a development ground. And develop it has.

Oh, btw, I loved your LWSM. Did you get enough of an ego boost there?
Imagine how much ego there is to brush when you were involved in creating 26 scripts.

How many scripts have you created? 10? After… 3 years?

Have you perhaps looked into one of the latest threads in MSI?

From: Sir R. Magician
[php]
{$IFDEF ALPHA_WORLD_WALKER}
//WorldWalker.simba
{$ENDIF}

//for Alpha -> Beta!
{$IFDEF BETA_WORLD_WALKER}
{$DEFINE ALPHA_WORLD_WALKER}
{$ENDIF}
/* this will avoid you muddling through the include to find the defines. It'll also allow you to easily separate Alpha from Beta & Release. */

//AlphaDevelopments.simba
{$DEFINE ALPHA_WORLD_WALKER}
{$DEFINE ALPHA_SKILL_MAGIC}
{$DEFINE ALPHA_AUTO_RESPONDER}
{$DEFINE ALPHA_VWM_COLORWALK}
[/php]

Any code that runs can be put into MSI in this way. Way to appeal the crowds?

Don't want to use something that you don't trust too much or like too much? Remove the define!

I'll let you guys post this.

~RM


OMG, what is this all about?
Generating more activity. More development. More Opportunities.

MSI gives people an aim. Our aim is no longer to 'get banking working'. It's to 'prioritize our mining'.

MSI has every script building off of its core. We don't repeat our code. We generalize it.
And so we don't have to write 10 object finders like you did. We wrote one. And with the rest of our time got other things into place.

Now, I don't know what idea of yours you are talking about. And if you're also talking about Boreas' barebones, you are wrong. That's an idea I'd like to see happen and have been bringing up every now and then, but MSI has nothing to do with it.

Furthermore, MSI is not against reflection. MSI uses it. So lets just ignore that one.

Next, 'MSI is all MSI MSI MSI'. Well.. no. It's just that MSI is large, so you see a lot of it. Be a bit more active and you may notice our contributions in other threads.

Or maybe MSI is the one last thing that keeps us active. If MSI is keeping someone around SRL, I see nothing wrong with it.

Do people come to SRL because of MSI? How many people come to SRL? How many of those people use MSI?

I've got no clue. But MSI is the third most used Script. Possibly the most used script from the active scripts.

So I'd guess a large proportion of SRL or of the big autoers use it. Go figure.

Finally, I find this bash of yours on MSI as mis-informed as the last.
You seem to think MSI is a compilation of 26 different scripts. You're wrong.

MSI is a very strong core with a few skills files.
Each script is only about 10 lines long, compared to 1000+ lines of code, in the whole of MSI.

Furthermore, MSI encourages development. Color and Reflection.
MSI relies on synergy. The strength of teams.
MSI takes strength from the past. It doesn't recycle code.
MSI passes knowledge down.

————
And to answer your Simba points.

MSI has generated 1 extension for Simba so far.
MSI was one of the first scripts to use Simba.
MSI is one of the few Simba Scripts.

Simba does have a rank. Now it even has a cup.

And why didn't it before? Because one was never implemented. Why? Go figure.

Btw, have you heard that MSI can be downloaded through Simba, fill in declare players and boom, you have 26 scripts at your disposal?

Holy shit, is that easier than muddling through RS Bot to find a properly working script?

Man yeah, Wizzup's essence miner was great. Shame no one kept it up to date.
Guess what? If people still used it, and a team of people were there to keep it up to date, then maybe it'd still be alive.

And finally, MSI is a development ground. And as it is the third most used script, it is also a perfect place to test anything SRL might need tested.

Because it actually has testers!

So guess what? MSI is a perfectly well suited place to implement things that need testing, such as random solvers!

And then write a system that'll send the logs of the (possibly failed) random solver to a server and voila, you now know where the randoms are failing. You can also take the chance to gather data.

Honestly Claw, I think you're an idiot for not realizing MSI is generating a lot of development around SRL. Maybe you're just clueless.

I really tried hard to open your eyes with my threads and signatures and cups, but you're too goddamn stuck in your lil life to consider something new.

You're like that old man that still believes you shouldn't have sex before getting married, you know what I mean?

~RM

The Claw

2010-10-14 20:13:39

No, you're too stuck in your own "lil life" to see what I mean. Resulting in more ad hominems. I see exactly what you're doing, even if you don't yet. Again you missed my point. And again I didn't mean it as a personal attack so I don't see why you would get angsty and abuse me. Just don't worry about it, but pay attention to Boreas's post a few posts above.

n3ss3s

2010-10-14 23:40:06

You have the most senseless argument. MSI is a script!. Why don't you read something before making accusations?


A MIRACLE!! That just summarized my whole miniature wall of text into one question! Now I'm of course assuming it to be (or will be) a massive include sort of thing that allows you to make (and includes) AIO scripts of some sort. o wait dats wat it stands for r0fl


Oh oops lol ur the one who didnt read rofl its ok, MSI is a script, and an include, idk if its just a coincidence that it's also an abbreviation of Multi Script Include…

Now also, let's put aside the fact that you scored over 9k on your SRI and thus a valid argument to

Now keep in mind that I have no idea how

From: The Claw
Hang on…..this argument again? Really? lol


is

Who said anything about what EVERYONE wants?



Also, one thing that everyone wants uhm lemme think… Mega XP + GP? ( aka p2p scripts, since botting with armies and xfering is long gone, doing sweet overnight iron mine rapes isn't much use) Nobody cares if it's in the form of an awesome project which you can pick 3 skills from by opening just one file :O

Sir R. M8gic1an

2010-10-15 06:00:06

I think you make us miss your point by arguing against MSI too much;
We've worked hard to build it and so will of course defend it, no one likes to be told they were wasting time, when it obviously yield results.

From: The Claw
We don't NEED a big script, it would be cool, but big deal if we have it. The framework is more important. SRL itself is in a poor state and Reflection is as close to being eradicated as always, since theres not many people active who know what theyre doing and theres no tutorials. And including Reflection in SRL does no harm whatsoever.


This is probably the essential point.

Now to answer that point:
Many people contribute many things to SRL.
But Naum took a few months to gather all the information he needed for his maze solver.

MSI is here to work with SRL. That's why 'MSI is a community script' gets repeated a million times.

MSI allows for group scripting and for people to build on each other's code.

Yes, some parts of the include need cleaning up.

MSI uses SRL and has an extensive debugging system. You want to find out what isn't working in SRL?

Make MSI use that part of SRL, someone will run MSI, and you get bug reports. You get suggestions. You get feedback. And then you can fix/improve SRL with this feedback.

Do you know if magic.scar is up to date? Not really, but since MSI uses magic.scar someone will let you know through MSI that the spell selection is no longer working properly.

Are you working on a random solver? What information do you need to gather?
Use MSI. It's the most actively run script, therefore it'll get the most accounts in randoms, therefore you can gather information through that.

SRL Devs have access to MSI's inner forums. Use this to your advantage.

MSI has a success tracker. Want to know how well your random solver is running?

Do you understand my point of MSI being a test platform for SRL?

MSI is aiming to cover all skills / scripts. It could cover sudoku as well.

If SRL has this community project which allows you to auto all skills with a high quality script and full of user-contributed features, don't you think that's something quite comparable to RS Bot?



MSI uses Simba. Want to test some of Simba's functionality?

MSI can be a testing platform.

Things developed in MSI can be put into SRL.

Not sure just how well something works? Put it in MSI, find out, debug it, and you will know.

Get your results and it can be put into SRL.

MSI's Magic.simba contributed to SRL's magic.scar.

MSI is not here to take over the world. MSI is here to help SRL take over the world.

~RM

n3ss3s

2010-10-15 17:45:29

what the shit is this, did i just wait almost 24h hours without nobody getting majorly butthurt by my post :S


Now RM please read the following in some friendly tone idk adam sandler or w/e I'm not trying to attack u

This object finder is used in all 26 MSI Scripts. Therefore all 26 scripts have better object finding than any script using SRL's Object finders.

Now, as you are most likely aware, I have talked of getting MSI code included into SRL.
Why?
- It is new & fresh
- It is of High Quality


Now, what does "getting MSI code included into SRL." mean?

The whole scenario of having to do that is absurd, MSI uses the SRL Library, if MSI's core has a well working function that is not yet in SRL, why wouldn't it be straight away put into SRL which is included?

Also some tips for the object finder.

If MSI_Objects[objID].FindAllColors Then
For I := 0 To H Do
If (Length(ATPA) < 1) Then
Begin
MSI_SubDebug('MSI_FindObjectsTPA: All colors weren''t found!');
Objs := [];
Exit;
End;

You wanna have ATPA there (atm the loop is useless), and remove FindAllColors from the bottom. Then what you wanna do is move the animation check out of the loop since it isnt relative to the looped var in any way. Then, since we do not care which specific bad color an object includes, what you might wanna do is just run a FindColorsSpiralTolMulti or w/e in the beginning for the bad color and then just use NearbyPointInArray to check in the loop if your obj has a bad colour, I'm suspecting it will be faster but not promising anything on this one…

Coh3n

2010-10-15 18:11:05

From: n3ss3s
Oh oops lol ur the one who didnt read rofl its ok, MSI is a script, and an include, idk if its just a coincidence that it's also an abbreviation of Multi Script Include…

*Multiple Script Integration.

From: n3ss3s

Nobody cares if it's in the form of an awesome project which you can pick 3 skills from by opening just one file :O

I'd say that's much more convenient than downloading several scripts for each skill. May just be me though.

n3ss3s

2010-10-15 19:31:55

*Multiple Script Integration.



NCDS

2010-10-15 21:03:06

From: n3ss3s


It was changed sort of mid way through writing the core.

n3ss3s

2010-10-15 21:08:45

It can still be included without running a script though…

The Claw

2010-10-16 00:48:56

From: n3ss3s


Lo- ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD

Coh3n

2010-10-16 01:46:40

From: n3ss3s

http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56614

It was Multiple Script Include originally. I guess RM never got around or just forgot to change it.

Boreas

2010-10-16 16:28:42

Back to the real issues please.

n3ss3s

2010-10-16 18:26:32

Conclusion: Reflection is official but supposedly poorly maintained, if anyone feels that SRL needs people with dem hooks knowledge, you can go try and invite someone over, doesn't have to be Wizzup who does it…

Naike

2010-10-16 18:54:43

From: n3ss3s
Conclusion: Reflection is official but supposedly poorly maintained, if anyone feels that SRL needs people with dem hooks knowledge, you can go try and invite someone over, doesn't have to be Wizzup who does it…


I'm trying..
And Reflection is maintained nowadays.

n3ss3s

2010-10-16 23:27:53

wats this thread for den l0l nike <3

Coh3n

2010-10-17 01:42:58

From: n3ss3s
wats this thread for den l0l nike <3

It was made before he started properly maintaining it I think.

Naike

2010-10-17 04:45:25

To be honest, this thread was a horrible mistake.
Created more bad than good.

Reflection will live on now, as an add-on to SRL.

End of story.

Sir R. M8gic1an

2010-10-17 07:32:59

n3ss3s: I'm glad you found something that could be better done in MSI and contributed by telling us.

And what I meant was exactly what you suggested. If MSI has a good object finder, it could indeed be put into SRL. I couldn't agree with you more.

e: All those you PMed me now have the ref cup.

~RM