SRL Archive - News and General

Recently, some people have been debating weather or not free services are allowed outside of the Black market. In the past, I've seen some get through, and people say aslong as it's free, it's allowed. While today, a Registered User had his thread locked because this wasn't allowed. Now I'm not critisizing any decisions, but I just want to make it clear for myself, and other members of the forum. Are free services permitted outside the Black market?

E: Here is the official rule regarding this. It makes no statement about free services however.

Buying and Selling:
Buying or selling of any scripts, services, real world goods, or virtual goods outside of the black market is prohibited. Please visit one of our friendly neighboring communities for anything related to real world money or Runescape related gold.

The black market is for anything not RS > RS related.
Outside has to be RS > RS

As you are not receiving anything from RS, just doing a service, it's not RS > RS.

So, no>

Poll Added. :)

No due to the fact that there is a higher risk of your account getting hijacked.

I believe this was just overlooked when the rules were created

I guess I should state my opinion:

At the moment, there is no statement in the rules saying free services are or are not allowed. So I say they should be allowed atm, but the rules should be changed to make it more clear.

I think yes actually. It is, of course, at your own risk though.
If you think you can trust the person, than go right ahead. And if it is Rs to Rs, then it can go in the RS Market-Dump.
This is just me, plus in its description…, but yea. Go right ahead at your own practiced caution.
~Rez

I vote no, because new people could be taken advantage of. We should keep all things that involve trust on the black market.

I think anything that is associated with risks (including giving your account info for a free service) should be kept in black market.

Having said that, i think the black market/jr criteria should be lowered, possibly to just like 1 month + 100 posts etc.
To prevent scams, if you don't trust the person, use a MM (SSRL+ etc).

If someone asked someone created a thread, asking for someone to complete the fire caves for them for free, someone could very easily just contact them very PMs, and then they are at exacting the same risk.

As there is no current rule stating against free services, you should be entirely allowed to offer them, contrary to what someone decided to remind me in a rather personal fashion earlier.

It's exactly the same as pretty much anything free in this world, you should enter it with caution and at your own risk. It's pretty obvious when something looks sketchy.

The thread that was initially created that caused this debate stated that he would not require a PIN, so he could barely gain anything from hijacking the account, and claiming back your RuneScape account is incredibly easy if you are the true owner.

In my opinion, should be allowed, it's the same risk as buying a service, just at no cost.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 13 (8 members and 5 guests)
Anyway, or you could just put all the burden on Markus :)

Also Footy, how come the Yes! is italicized but the No! isn't.

Whatever you chose is italicised. :p

No. Personal feeling on the subject, no real justification. I personally don't trust people enough to let them on my account unless they have earned some sort of respected from the community (like Junior member or full SRL member or higher).

i think it should be allowed at the moment because the rule doesn't state it as being wrong. I think the mods should look at this though and fix the rule according to what they believe though.

So the rules should be changed accordingly at this point in time.

No threads should be closed and then edited the main post unless you can cite rules, otherwise you are giving a negative reputation to the original OP.

In future I think all rules should be cited when closing a thread, to help users learn in future, rather than the rather useless "Closed." post.

From: Footy
Whatever you chose is italicised. :p

Im dumb…don't hate me :)

Anything involved trusting should be kept in the black market.

There is always a catch, very very rarely would anyone do anything for free for anyone, why would they waste their own time without getting something in return. No i dont think it should be allowed, its too risky, too sketchy, and it will just bring scammers here, or bring out the scammer inside of some people.

From: Silentcore
Anything involved trusting should be kept in the black market.

You mean like running a script that has your username, password, and often your bank PIN typed in?

From: stuartroad
There is always a catch, very very rarely would anyone do anything for free for anyone, why would they waste their own time without getting something in return. No i dont think it should be allowed, its too risky, too sketchy, and it will just bring scammers here, or bring out the scammer inside of some people.

Good point. This is why i've never used a single script here (and only used premium scripts from some premium bot clients). I mean, why would people spend days scripting for no return at all? Definitely suspicious. :rolleyes:

There is no meaning to contributing selflessly; even if it is something that you enjoy, and any such acts must have ulterior motive.
[/sarcasm]

I think there could be very safe ways to do it, like letting him do it over teamviewer? That would make it impossible to do any harm to your acct.

Again, I still say yes. If the service involves giving your account for some time, then it is up to the rest to decide if the servicer(?) is trustworthy or not.
At max, there should be a rank limit, like maybe lessers or above, that can only do this.
This way, we would probably cut down on the 1 posting hackers, as well as the mass amount of upcoming threads ;)

It really depends on who on ScapeRune would trust someone to use their account for free. As the saying goes… Nothing is free in this world.

From: Swifte
It really depends on who on ScapeRune would trust someone to use their account for free. As the saying goes… Nothing is free in this world.

Except my love <3 (No homo, cept Vin)
Um, and yea…I am still sticking with yes, to the OP.

Yes, Because its free, everyone should enjoy it. People should know by now who to trust.
especially if their not paying for it.

As I am am the "Registered user" who get his thread locked I am going to post what I pm'd Markus and what response I got as I think he had a very valid point and cleared everything up for me!

My message:

Hello Markus

This is not going to be rude but I would like a full explanation as to why my post is disallowed, yes it is a service but it is not a charged service and nor is it asking for any form of reputation in exchange so there is no trading involved and therefore technically has no place on a "market". Please do not take this as me trying to be rude as it's not

I just want to know why a post count is required for me to be able to do something nice for members of the community, I am aware it's because having more posts apparently makes me a more trust worthy person (although I believe the quality of someone's posts should be taken into account opposed the number of them as this to me encourages spam, although I am sure your staff caters for this correctly.) also is there any actual direct post that states that free "services" HAVE to be within the blackmarket.

Thanks and I hope you can clear things up for me as I am just trying to assist the community a little!

His reply:

Hey Albi,

The reason for the black market rule is to cut down on scammers, look at what Sythe is. It took a lot of persuading of the other staff members to get something like a black market there in the first place and they wanted some protection against scammers, which is why the 300 post/6 months (or SRL Members) rule was chosen as a prerequisite to accessing the black market. This is a rule no exceptions will be made for, for obvious slippery slope reasons. Determining 'quality posts' is a bit of a soft metric, something that would never be agreed upon and there would always be people complaining they are higher quality than others.

Though you are right it is not specifically said in the rules you are banned from offering services for free outside of the black market, I don't really like to see it outside of it: There were a couple of cases where there were actual scammers offering their 'services' for free, with the end result being a broke account and angry people complaining at the staff. Yes, bank PINs can mitigate the risk but there is always someone who forgets to set his/her PIN and who are you going to blame then, the scammer or the user?
That's my main reason for not allowing it outside of the black market.

I would like to ask for your understanding on this case, and of course you are free to offer your free/paid services later when you have received access

Best regards,

Markus

From: Albi
As I am am the "Registered user" who get his thread locked I am going to post what I pm'd Markus and what response I got as I think he had a very valid point and cleared everything up for me!

My message:


His reply:

And that's why the staff at Villavu are awesome. Given a detailed response.

From: [J]ustin
And that's why the staff at Villavu are awesome. Given a detailed response.

:( What about me! I asked a detail question and was polite even though he locked my thread ;)!

Nah I am messing, I was happy with the answer and felt it got cleared up for me. So I will have to work on 300 posts so I can get that JNR member status ;)!

I do like the way the black market is setup and I completely agree with Markus' response. If you want to offer a service and you are trustworthy there should be no issue in hanging around and staying active for 6months. Be nice to get to know you :)

I think that the regulations are correct, even though it is annoying if you are a legit provider. If you have to work for 6 months + get that post count I feel that it would be a massive waste of time to throw it away for a very little return.

I think it's better to keep the services whether they be free or not inside the black market. It provides more security and the requirements decrease the chance of someone untrustworthy coming along and hijacking a bunch of accounts.

From: -Benny
I think that the regulations are correct, even though it is annoying if you are a legit provider. If you have to work for 6 months + get that post count I feel that it would be a massive waste of time to throw it away for a very little return.

That is how I felt a little bit but I have to respect Markus' response and keep to the rules I guess :) I have the time requirements now to get the post count ;)!

From: stuartroad
There is always a catch, very very rarely would anyone do anything for free for anyone, why would they waste their own time without getting something in return. No i dont think it should be allowed, its too risky, too sketchy, and it will just bring scammers here, or bring out the scammer inside of some people.

I agree with you mate and also wanted to point out that a lot of new people who want to gain reputation fast and easy do free things, it's not always scam, but there is always the doubt…

From: Albi
That is how I felt a little bit but I have to respect Markus' response and keep to the rules I guess :) I have the time requirements now to get the post count ;)!

Go for it! A couple of well detailed posts each day will help you.

I'm sure it's easily attainable but with RS there is such a problem with people taking virtual goods it's a bit of a shame.

Offtopic: do you play Rs yourself?

From: -Benny
Go for it! A couple of well detailed posts each day will help you.

I'm sure it's easily attainable but with RS there is such a problem with people taking virtual goods it's a bit of a shame.

Offtopic: do you play Rs yourself?

I intend to try and contribute a little! And hopefully start learning some Pascal so I can apply for members status :P

I think the major problem with free services is the fact that no one can REALLY be trusted over the internet at the end of the day, someone can have 3000+ vouches and one day turn around and steal 2b for no real reason.

Offtopic: Yes :) Pm me or msg me on irc if you wanna chat ^_^

From: Albi
I intend to try and contribute a little! And hopefully start learning some Pascal so I can apply for members status :P

I think the major problem with free services is the fact that no one can REALLY be trusted over the internet at the end of the day, someone can have 3000+ vouches and one day turn around and steal 2b for no real reason.

Offtopic: Yes :) Pm me or msg me on irc if you wanna chat ^_^

:) I completely agree to what you're saying. :)

Will do !

Also I feel you should change the poll question to "Should free services be allowed outside of the black market" as your current question is a bit misleading to people who are to lazy to read ^_^!

People are forgetting that it's not just the provider that misses out here. To force someone to have 300 posts and be registered for 6 months to be able to receive a free service is outrageous.

This is a very poorly reasoned response. A clear concise rule change is necessary, all this grey area stuff is always causing debates

From: Richard
People are forgetting that it's not just the provider that misses out here. To force someone to have 300 posts and be registered for 6 months to be able to receive a free service is outrageous.

This is a very poorly reasoned response. A clear concise rule change is necessary, all this grey area stuff is always causing debates

I did actually point this out to Markus but I do understand from one perspective… But then being the user who had his thread closed due to this issue it irritates me.

From: Albi
I did actually point this out to Markus but I do understand from one perspective… But then being the user who had his thread closed due to this issue it irritates me.

I understand completely but you'll be there in no time. :)

Just stick it out

I think this is just another one of the standard issues of this forum being far too elitist.

From: Richard
I think this is just another one of the standard issues of this forum being far too elitist.

I don't think it's elitism I just think that it's a security measure that doesn't have a huge amount of logic behind it but makes sense slightly.

Personally I say… No because no matter what you say people will be dumb and get scammed then we will have people moaning on the forums about getting hacked/scammed etc etc

Wow, 13-13… :o

Would like to say I trusted albi with my account details (including pin, but has no valuables atm.)
^ He started the service BEFORE we were told that it wasn't allowed :/

Somebody offering free services doesn't have to make a thread, it can be sorted out through PMs. They just need to say it in their sig. So, nope.

From: litoris
Somebody offering free services doesn't have to make a thread, it can be sorted out through PMs. They just need to say it in their sig. So, nope.

Isn't having it in your sig essentially the same thing?

From: Albi
Isn't having it in your sig essentially the same thing?

Yes… except you don't need a thread/organization/jr members for it.

From: litoris
Yes… except you don't need a thread/organization/jr members for it.

No but my point is that it kind of defeats the object of keeping it inside the market :P

As Albi already posted my response I don't have a lot to add to this thread.
The 300 post/6 month logic may seem a bit flawed but is like this: the black market was originally SRL members only. but to accomodate some more active, less scripting type of people, it was decided upon jr. members are now admitted too. For this the requirements were lifted a bit from 7 days/10 posts to 6 months/300 posts, as the only use of it was allowing black market, not anymore to the script section.
SRL's main focus is scripting, the market is just an added extra for the few active people who want to trade among themselves. For something real you are always welcome at Sythe, Powerbot and whatever, our friendly neighbours, who afaik admit anyone without requirements.
Oh, the effectiveness of this measure could be doubted, but I'll let the figures speak for itself: since the start of the market in august 2009, we banned exactly 4 people for scamming.

Richard: what about the new guy claiming that for example I robbed his entire bank? He even has a pic of my IP (of course, as I defeated Jad for him). Who should be trusted then, him, with few days of registration time and a couple of posts, or me?

From: Markus
As Albi already posted my response I don't have a lot to add to this thread.
The 300 post/6 month logic may seem a bit flawed but is like this: the black market was originally SRL members only. but to accomodate some more active, less scripting type of people, it was decided upon jr. members are now admitted too. For this the requirements were lifted a bit from 7 days/10 posts to 6 months/300 posts, as the only use of it was allowing black market, not anymore to the script section.
SRL's main focus is scripting, the market is just an added extra for the few active people who want to trade among themselves. For something real you are always welcome at Sythe, Powerbot and whatever, our friendly neighbours, who afaik admit anyone without requirements.
Oh, the effectiveness of this measure could be doubted, but I'll let the figures speak for itself: since the start of the market in august 2009, we banned exactly 4 people for scamming.

Richard: what about the new guy claiming that for example I robbed his entire bank? He even has a pic of my IP (of course, as I defeated Jad for him). Who should be trusted then, him, with few days of registration time and a couple of posts, or me?

Just taking the last part of your post, although he may of been registered for a few days and I think it's an unfair assumption that newer users have the soul intent to scam :P I think that's a bit of a generalisation implied.

But as I previously said, I know what you mean and where you are coming from past experience.

From: Markus
Richard: what about the new guy claiming that for example I robbed his entire bank? He even has a pic of my IP (of course, as I defeated Jad for him). Who should be trusted then, him, with few days of registration time and a couple of posts, or me?

Personally I would have gone to the extent to spoof my IP, so that a random guy on the internet couldn't get hold of it, but obviously that's a different issue.

Like I stated earlier, though, it's the same risk as putting in your password into a script that anyone can upload. Actually, even worse, someone can upload a script without having to be a junior member, literally anyone could upload a script that could steal your information. Yes, I know that someone could easily read the code and find any dodgey code, but how many people go to the extent to do that?

In a way, not allowing free services is taking away the spirit of kindness, this guy was clearly just trying to be helpful to the community, become a part of it, and now he probably is upset that he was shot down in his attempt to be nice, which isn't exactly the sort of image we want to paint for our community, is it?

Anyway, I'm not staff, and you people are probably far more aware of the risks, so I'll leave the decisions down to the people with experience.

From: Richard
Personally I would have gone to the extent to spoof my IP, so that a random guy on the internet couldn't get hold of it, but obviously that's a different issue.

Like I stated earlier, though, it's the same risk as putting in your password into a script that anyone can upload. Actually, even worse, someone can upload a script without having to be a junior member, literally anyone could upload a script that could steal your information. Yes, I know that someone could easily read the code and find any dodgey code, but how many people go to the extent to do that?

In a way, not allowing free services is taking away the spirit of kindness, this guy was clearly just trying to be helpful to the community, become a part of it, and now he probably is upset that he was shot down in his attempt to be nice, which isn't exactly the sort of image we want to paint for our community, is it?

Anyway, I'm not staff, and you people are probably far more aware of the risks, so I'll leave the decisions down to the people with experience.

I am far from shotdown ^_^ I just have to post more before I can be kind again ;)! I will be taking up scripting in the mean time.

From: Richard
Actually, even worse, someone can upload a script without having to be a junior member, literally anyone could upload a script that could steal your information. Yes, I know that someone could easily read the code and find any dodgey code, but how many people go to the extent to do that?

Actually whenever I see a new script I download it, just to have a look at it, im pretty sure alot of other people do.

Perhaps in all of the tutorials for setting up simba, where it talks about setting up the extensions, the tut writer should also say to enable security.sex, because right now it's just a recommendation. That being said, how many times have people uploaded password stealing scripts that were actually in simba code? the only password stealer I remember was when someone came here with "the first simba dung bot" in as a rar:p. And that was obvious, and the link was gone in minutes.

From: BMWxi
Perhaps in all of the tutorials for setting up simba, where it talks about setting up the extensions, the tut writer should also say to enable security.sex, because right now it's just a recommendation. That being said, how many times have people uploaded password stealing scripts that were actually in simba code? the only password stealer I remember was when someone came here with "the first simba dung bot" in as a rar:p. And that was obvious, and the link was gone in minutes.

You would be suprised, I wouldn't imagine it would be hard to put a password stealer within a script if you were sneaky enough about it!

I think it free services should be allowed in the black market. Markus actually got me my first 2 fire capes for free. Only if he did the new cape for free… :P

Oh man, If only i was a jr member… Got to wave 53 last night, and got 3 hit by the 180 :C
And my membership runs out tonight. Oh well

From: Runescape Pro
I think it free services should be allowed in the black market. Markus actually got me my first 2 fire capes for free. Only if he did the new cape for free… :P

I plan on opening up a free kiln service once I hit JNR member :)

I like the competition Free Services adds to Paid Services because then Paid Services would need to offer more in some fashion to make profit.

Also, Free Service vs. Paid Service here would be same idea; your account is at the same risk, with exception of trust in User offering service.

Ex, Free = gain experience/practice in skill && Paid = gain money += Free

From: Albi
You would be suprised, I wouldn't imagine it would be hard to put a password stealer within a script if you were sneaky enough about it!

You'd need it to connect it to the internet, and then security.sex would block it and alert you.