crackkilzu
2007-04-18 21:36:48
———-
Andrew
Jagex Mod
03-Jan-2007 14:43:22
Actually we ban about 8000 accounts a week for macroing.
It's next to impossible to get away with these days. That doesn't mean they don't keep trying, (making new accounts and trying again), but they're not getting away with it. Why do you think the vast majority of the accounts you see these days are only level-3? It's because they've only just made them!
The only problem now is in the time between them creating the account and us catching them (And we do catch them!) We're working on further measures to reduces even that small window.
———-
Andrew
Jagex Mod
03-Jan-2007 15:40:28
-We already do IP banning. It's not massively effective because many people can change IP, but it does help a bit.
-We also already have ways of finding and banning their mains/mules, and regularly do. We have a team of people doing just that to make sure they don't get away with it.
Don't worry we are working on the problem, and we are banning people. There are also more updates planned to hit them even harder, and cut the problem further. We just don't normally announce such updates these days. It used to be a 'mass ban of 10,000 players' would make the news on the front page, wheras we now ban that many every week so don't even mention it. Which goes to show how far we've progressed in this.
———-
Since these posts are a few months old, and we're always improving our detection systems, the figures Andrew quotes are now on the low side. But the principle remains sound. So if you would rant that we don't do anything, you'd actually be incorrect.
* Ranting about other players' behaviour is against the Forum Code of Conduct.
Rants about other players often lead to specific players being named and accused of rulebreaking. Since it's not possible for the accuser to give evidence for their claims, other Forum users have no way to know whether the accusation is genuine.
It's therefore against the Forum Code of Conduct to make accusations against others on the Forums. This prevents the possibility of innocent players being unfairly harassed in-game as a result of false accusations against them in public. It also pre-emptively lessens the chance of unpleasant arguments and flamewars.
If you genuinely believe you've found someone actively breaking the rules, the very best way to help is to use the Report Abuse button immediately. This sends evidence to our investigative team, who can then use it to take any necessary action. Don't make public allegations that you can't support, no matter how sure you are.
* These rants don't actually help to solve the problem.
The Rants Forum is for feedback about game content that players believe need to be improved. When players rant about game features, we read those rants and use them as feedback to make any necessary changes.
An example is the tweak we made to Olaf's Bridge recently; players let us know that it was unfairly hard, we listened, so we made it fairer.
Ranting about other players' behaviour, on the other hand, solves nothing. Game content is directly under our control, so if something's wrong, we can fix it. But unfortunately, we can't just push a button and solve the problem of people wanting something for nothing. What we can do, and what we already are doing, is to keep banning them until they eventually realise they're just not going to get away with it.
* Forum space is limited and these rants take up space that could be used for other, valid topics.
Every time you make a new thread, someone else's thread is pushed off the bottom of page 50, losing it for ever. It's therefore very wasteful to keep making rants that aren't even allowed (as detailed above.)
I'd like to finish by saying we do appreciate that it's frustrating to feel like your own dedication and hard work is being cheapened or diminished by rulebreakers.
We'd just like you to understand why ranting about it on the Forums is not the answer.
Many thanks.
-Mod Jon H
RuneScape Forum Support
Mod Jon H
Jagex Mod
17-Apr-2007 19:30:30
Last edited on 17-Apr-2007 21:21:54 by Mod Jon H
A few follow-up points that didn't quite fit into the first post:
* Limitations of the Abuse Reporting System
Once you report someone, there's a 60-second delay before you can make another report. Some players have complained that this makes it too difficult to report groups of suspected rulebreakers.
I'm not a Content Development Team member, so I can't comment on whether/when this may be changed, but I can say that since we're already aware that some players would like the delay to be shortened, there's really no need to complain about this issue any more.
As a work-around, if you really feel strongly about wanting to report as many suspected rulebreakers as possible, you can always write down the names and use the "Comment on our Service" link from the main RuneScape homepage to send us the list in a private message.
This isn't ideal - Abuse Reports are still much stronger evidence - but equally, we understand that you'll want to get on with your own gameplay rather than feeling like you have to stand around waiting for minutes on end for the Report Abuse system to catch up with you.
* Macro hunts / report fests
Players sometimes post threads like "There are loads of level 3 players cutting yews at […], come with me to report them all!"
We don't allow these because they increase the likelihood of mistaken reports being made against innocent players. It's perfectly possible (in fact it's very common) for 'skillers' to train their woodcutting legitimately until they can cut yews, even magics. Combat level isn't the only indicator of a player's dedication and experience.
Similarly, just because someone doesn't reply when you talk to them, it doesn't mean that they're cheating. Some players choose to train with public chat turned off, particularly if they're holding a private conversation with friends, so they may not even realise you're talking to them at all.
We don't punish anyone without strong evidence against them, so innocent players don't have anything to fear even if they get reported falsely. However, false reports do waste time for our investigative staff, meaning that they have less time to spend tracking down the real rulebreakers.
* I have a great idea for how you can catch more macroers!
Unfortunately, rulebreakers read the Forums too. If we allowed discussion of ways to catch macroers, they would use the information to get more stealthy. Ironically, this could actually make it harder to catch them, not easier.
That's why Jagex doesn't give out more specific information about what we do to catch these people, incidentally. We understand that some people take this "radio silence" to mean we do nothing, but as explained above, this isn't true. We already catch and ban the vast majority of Rule 7 breakers.
The real improvements in future will be in catching them even more quickly than we do already, and we're achieving that by continually refining our internal systems and procedures.
Thanks
-Mod Jon H
Andrew
Jagex Mod
03-Jan-2007 14:43:22
Actually we ban about 8000 accounts a week for macroing.
It's next to impossible to get away with these days. That doesn't mean they don't keep trying, (making new accounts and trying again), but they're not getting away with it. Why do you think the vast majority of the accounts you see these days are only level-3? It's because they've only just made them!
The only problem now is in the time between them creating the account and us catching them (And we do catch them!) We're working on further measures to reduces even that small window.
———-
Andrew
Jagex Mod
03-Jan-2007 15:40:28
-We already do IP banning. It's not massively effective because many people can change IP, but it does help a bit.
-We also already have ways of finding and banning their mains/mules, and regularly do. We have a team of people doing just that to make sure they don't get away with it.
Don't worry we are working on the problem, and we are banning people. There are also more updates planned to hit them even harder, and cut the problem further. We just don't normally announce such updates these days. It used to be a 'mass ban of 10,000 players' would make the news on the front page, wheras we now ban that many every week so don't even mention it. Which goes to show how far we've progressed in this.
———-
Since these posts are a few months old, and we're always improving our detection systems, the figures Andrew quotes are now on the low side. But the principle remains sound. So if you would rant that we don't do anything, you'd actually be incorrect.
* Ranting about other players' behaviour is against the Forum Code of Conduct.
Rants about other players often lead to specific players being named and accused of rulebreaking. Since it's not possible for the accuser to give evidence for their claims, other Forum users have no way to know whether the accusation is genuine.
It's therefore against the Forum Code of Conduct to make accusations against others on the Forums. This prevents the possibility of innocent players being unfairly harassed in-game as a result of false accusations against them in public. It also pre-emptively lessens the chance of unpleasant arguments and flamewars.
If you genuinely believe you've found someone actively breaking the rules, the very best way to help is to use the Report Abuse button immediately. This sends evidence to our investigative team, who can then use it to take any necessary action. Don't make public allegations that you can't support, no matter how sure you are.
* These rants don't actually help to solve the problem.
The Rants Forum is for feedback about game content that players believe need to be improved. When players rant about game features, we read those rants and use them as feedback to make any necessary changes.
An example is the tweak we made to Olaf's Bridge recently; players let us know that it was unfairly hard, we listened, so we made it fairer.
Ranting about other players' behaviour, on the other hand, solves nothing. Game content is directly under our control, so if something's wrong, we can fix it. But unfortunately, we can't just push a button and solve the problem of people wanting something for nothing. What we can do, and what we already are doing, is to keep banning them until they eventually realise they're just not going to get away with it.
* Forum space is limited and these rants take up space that could be used for other, valid topics.
Every time you make a new thread, someone else's thread is pushed off the bottom of page 50, losing it for ever. It's therefore very wasteful to keep making rants that aren't even allowed (as detailed above.)
I'd like to finish by saying we do appreciate that it's frustrating to feel like your own dedication and hard work is being cheapened or diminished by rulebreakers.
We'd just like you to understand why ranting about it on the Forums is not the answer.
Many thanks.
-Mod Jon H
RuneScape Forum Support
Mod Jon H
Jagex Mod
17-Apr-2007 19:30:30
Last edited on 17-Apr-2007 21:21:54 by Mod Jon H
A few follow-up points that didn't quite fit into the first post:
* Limitations of the Abuse Reporting System
Once you report someone, there's a 60-second delay before you can make another report. Some players have complained that this makes it too difficult to report groups of suspected rulebreakers.
I'm not a Content Development Team member, so I can't comment on whether/when this may be changed, but I can say that since we're already aware that some players would like the delay to be shortened, there's really no need to complain about this issue any more.
As a work-around, if you really feel strongly about wanting to report as many suspected rulebreakers as possible, you can always write down the names and use the "Comment on our Service" link from the main RuneScape homepage to send us the list in a private message.
This isn't ideal - Abuse Reports are still much stronger evidence - but equally, we understand that you'll want to get on with your own gameplay rather than feeling like you have to stand around waiting for minutes on end for the Report Abuse system to catch up with you.
* Macro hunts / report fests
Players sometimes post threads like "There are loads of level 3 players cutting yews at […], come with me to report them all!"
We don't allow these because they increase the likelihood of mistaken reports being made against innocent players. It's perfectly possible (in fact it's very common) for 'skillers' to train their woodcutting legitimately until they can cut yews, even magics. Combat level isn't the only indicator of a player's dedication and experience.
Similarly, just because someone doesn't reply when you talk to them, it doesn't mean that they're cheating. Some players choose to train with public chat turned off, particularly if they're holding a private conversation with friends, so they may not even realise you're talking to them at all.
We don't punish anyone without strong evidence against them, so innocent players don't have anything to fear even if they get reported falsely. However, false reports do waste time for our investigative staff, meaning that they have less time to spend tracking down the real rulebreakers.
* I have a great idea for how you can catch more macroers!
Unfortunately, rulebreakers read the Forums too. If we allowed discussion of ways to catch macroers, they would use the information to get more stealthy. Ironically, this could actually make it harder to catch them, not easier.
That's why Jagex doesn't give out more specific information about what we do to catch these people, incidentally. We understand that some people take this "radio silence" to mean we do nothing, but as explained above, this isn't true. We already catch and ban the vast majority of Rule 7 breakers.
The real improvements in future will be in catching them even more quickly than we do already, and we're achieving that by continually refining our internal systems and procedures.
Thanks
-Mod Jon H