SRL Archive - Senior News and General

An advice on the swearing subject


WT-Fakawi

2012-03-05 19:05:25

It is a difficult subject. It involves many aspects. Age, social background, cultural background, education, power. Why would one person be offended, while the other is not? Why would one person throw an infraction or warning, while the other does not? That is impossible to answer. Is it the proletarian youngster eager to enforce his powers? Or is it the I-dont-give-a-… youngster that is not used to thinking straight?

This subject has raised forum testosteron to a level rarely seen before. Though I solemnly believe in the earnestness of all participants this is not working at all at the moment and is splitting forces.

What need be done:

1. Testosteron level has to go down. Everybodies point has been heard. So cut the crap. Signal has been given. Communicate, but lower the drama, or I will lock all the threads related with a huge curse!

2. Rules are rules. This used not to be a problem back in 06 because we where a small group of active admins, devs and friends fooling around. Even I sweared both for the good and the bad. But this has changed whether you like it or not. More active users means stricter rules. And we really got stirred up these past few months but need to make sure we dont blow up. Why is there more swearing nowadays? Because we are 1000% more active! Thus 10 times more frustrated weirdos express their primitive anxiety. The increase of these streams has upset the community. In order for point 1 to work Let it be said that cursing/swearing is not allowed, only in the Pit. Positive cursing giving expression to one's joy I personally like very much, so I'd personally keep that, but read on.

3. Generation 15-25, 95% of what makes SRL, has an unusual view on privacy. I can say that because I am 48. You spend a large part of your social life exposing yourself, interacting silently, like deaf and dumb, rapidly clicking on the keys of whatever input device. This is the defacto way you communicate. And document yourselfs. You expose yourself way beyond my views on privacy. Which of course will lead you into trouble, if you have already typed bibles of text. And is published by each and everyone. In order to avoid any further stir in the privacy-pot, I propose a prohibition on IRC-chats or whatever view from whatever people from whatever other channels. If you have a problem with someones attitude on irc, go fight on irc and dont involve others here that do not wish/want/need to get involved.


From personal experience I can say: Yes, I swear. We are so liberal we even swear for fun in the Netherlands, ow no wait. Don't we all swear for fun?
It's too bad it has to go guys, and that we can't maintain our uber liberal Dutch views anymore, but this is the way it is now. Never thought religion would get me on my knees, goddammit.

weequ

2012-03-05 19:15:16

I feel like they are only complaining for the sake of complaining.

Coh3n

2012-03-05 19:16:42

Great post. I think it should be posted in public.

Kyle Undefined

2012-03-05 19:17:25

Awesome post WT! :)

BraK

2012-03-05 19:17:50

From: Coh3n
Great post. I think it should be posted in public.


I agree

From: weequ
I feel like they are only complaining for the sake of complaining.


Most probably are….

Bam Bam

2012-03-05 21:47:25

What do you mean by the prohibition on IRC chats?

-Bam Bam

NCDS

2012-03-05 22:03:08

From: Coh3n
Great post. I think it should be posted in public.


Agree'd.

Nice post Fakawi. I do think this is needed.

Gu3st...

2012-03-06 10:52:18

I disagree on being 100% prohibited at all times.

True, swearing can be avoided. True, swearing can be childish. True, swearing is against the Holy Bible. True, swearing is looked down on in most societies, but a lot of times, swearing can make one seem more serious, and more mature.

Look at all these Mafia movies, where people are saying stuff like "Who da fock do you think you are? Huh? I own this focking place. Now get the hell'a out of here!!!". It would just not be the same if they weren't allowed to swear.

The one and only fundamental reason for why swearing is swearing, and not just another word of our language, is because of religion.
A lot of our userbase say they do not belong to a religion, but the way religion is imbued in our society these days, it's pretty darn hard to not belong to one.

My point is this: I do not want this forum to turn into a communistic God praising place or whatever where everyone is afraid to do certain stuff because they have to take care of making sure no one will ever feel offended by anything they write; a task that is extremely difficult, if not impossible to complete.

What if some well respected script writer suddenly figures out he or she wants to leave the forum and figures he/she wants to do some extra damage before leaving, and updates all of his/her scripts with password stealing snippets. One can only imagine the reactions of the users when they log on the very next day, finding all their money and pixels gone.
I wont infract those poor people for saying stuff like "DAMNIT! This idiot stole my money!" or "FUCK! My account got stolen!" or whatever, it's just too stupid.

Next thing is Overtime or whoever starting to have stuff like "DISCLAIMER: It is not my intention to offend you in any of my posts. If you interpret it like that, then you have made a mistake and have to re-interpret my post." in their signature.

tl;dr: My opinion is this: Swearing should only be infractable if it's directed at people, and users feel offended by it.

Markus

2012-03-06 11:11:06

I don't completely agree with you Zytex, excessive swearing should remain infractable. But indeed, the guy whose account got stolen? You can't blame him (well, maybe you can for not posting in BBQ pit) that much.

What I think might be allowed/should be ignored:
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=952003
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=948353
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=947694 (relevant thread, too. Automation mods, though I don't like how he worded it at all).
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=945298
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=944942 (used to be 'fucking heard of')
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=935360 (shit twice, not directed at anyone)

The grey area (warning, if more posts infraction):
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=948572 (very grey, I'd give it).
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=950913 (annoying, middle finger, meme)
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=935707 (have no idea what to think of this one..)

Clear infraction:
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=945647 (racism)
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=939839 (excessive swearing)

Note: all these posts actually got infracted

Gu3st...

2012-03-06 11:20:16

Excessive swearing would also be infractable. Excessive swearing would fall in the "if it's directed at people, and users feel offended by it." (bolded) section

I think all posts containing swear words deserves a warning, and then those who are directed at other people and where people feel insulted or offended, deserves an infraction.

Kyle Undefined

2012-03-06 11:27:50

From: Markus
I don't completely agree with you Zytex, excessive swearing should remain infractable. But indeed, the guy whose account got stolen? You can't blame him (well, maybe you can for not posting in BBQ pit) that much.

What I think might be allowed/should be ignored:
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=952003
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=948353
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=947694 (relevant thread, too. Automation mods, though I don't like how he worded it at all).
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=945298
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=944942 (used to be 'fucking heard of')
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=935360 (shit twice, not directed at anyone)

The grey area (warning, if more posts infraction):
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=948572 (very grey, I'd give it).
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=950913 (annoying, middle finger, meme)
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=935707 (have no idea what to think of this one..)

Clear infraction:
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=945647 (racism)
http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=939839 (excessive swearing)

Note: all these posts actually got infracted


Not all of them are infractions, some are warnings, which I have no issue with dealing out. I give out warning 98% of the time, unless I see them still doing it after a previous warning.

I still don't see the need for it to happen. The thing is, everyone interprets the rules based on how they see fit. I know I'm not perfect, and if I sip up and get a warning or an infraction, then I'll just try harder not to do it next time.

Is it too much to ask for people to follow the rules, no matter how (And by that, I mean directed towards someone or not) the cursing is used?

Markus

2012-03-06 11:55:04

Prohibition in USA failed. You know why? It was way over the top, it went too far.
Same thing is happening here. Swagger's (bad example) and Harry's thread are just a few expressions of the gut feelings people have on the current interpretation.

You might overestimate the difference between warnings and infractions, especially when coming from SSRL. They both show up on your profile, get a thread made in staff and you get an official looking PM from vB. A small point is actually the only difference between them.
Respect is something you have to earn. I don't want to attack you personally at all, but you have been SSRL only recently but already know the way to the infract user button well. Yes, it's a fun button to use but don't underestimate the feelings of the person getting the infraction!
Remember that nerd in class, who had to answer 'yes' when the teacher asked if there was any homework and everyone was denying? He didn't break the rules, but he also lost a lot of respect, if he had any left at all.
Please, don't be that guy.

cause

2012-03-06 12:58:00

I think I could count on 1 hand the people that are fighting for the "right" to swear.
footballjds, kingarabian (both who have had a ton of warnings on the subject), Harry, and maybe Sin? or Toxin? Other than that, everyone else seems agree that it doesn't have a place on the forum.

Markus

2012-03-06 13:15:19

The others aren't saying what their opinion is, so technically you can't tell if they are pro or contra.

cause

2012-03-06 13:25:00

Just like voters who don't vote.

Bam Bam

2012-03-06 17:30:15

From: cause
Just like voters who don't vote.

I'm biased in the sense that the only person I'd infract for it at this point is Sin.

Edit: Cause, I do think I see a few too many infractions from you for swearing :/
Edit: And Markus when I'll admit it that I shouldn't have left either of those. I've been sending PMs to people off the "record" for some stuff instead of infracting (especially on the trolling beginners issue)

Kyle Undefined

2012-03-06 19:50:26

From: Markus
Prohibition in USA failed. You know why? It was way over the top, it went too far.
Same thing is happening here. Swagger's (bad example) and Harry's thread are just a few expressions of the gut feelings people have on the current interpretation.

You might overestimate the difference between warnings and infractions, especially when coming from SSRL. They both show up on your profile, get a thread made in staff and you get an official looking PM from vB. A small point is actually the only difference between them.
Respect is something you have to earn. I don't want to attack you personally at all, but you have been SSRL only recently but already know the way to the infract user button well. Yes, it's a fun button to use but don't underestimate the feelings of the person getting the infraction!
Remember that nerd in class, who had to answer 'yes' when the teacher asked if there was any homework and everyone was denying? He didn't break the rules, but he also lost a lot of respect, if he had any left at all.
Please, don't be that guy.


I understand that, but why have a warning system if there's no difference between that and an infraction, besides a point. To me, I see the warning system as a tracking system as well. If a user has been acting up, and hasn't been warned, then a warning is deserved. However, if the user is still acting up and someone checks to see if they've been warned, then they can make the decision to either let it go or give an infraction. If there's no history for a user, how do people know when to take appropriate action if needed if everything is "off the books" so to speak?

Maybe I'm just looking in too deep for the system, but that's how it appears it should be used. I might be mistaken, and if so, I'll happily follow the work flow and change my process.

Yes, respect is something that has to be earned. I don't think I'd be were I'm at now if it wasn't for that, right? I don't see your comments as an attack, so no worries there. I'm just trying to help keep the boards clean, and if I'm going too far, please tell me as I don't want to offend anyone by what I'm doing. I always try to send a friendly message when either it's a warning or an infraction, I don't always do it and I know I should, but I try. I would hate to get an infraction, because to me it would feel as if I was an idiot, so I try to keep the messages as positive as possible, especially when it's a warning. So as far as the person who's feelings might be hurt, I try and not upset them.

How would I be that guy? (I know you're not just singling me out, but more of a general area) If following the rules makes me that guy, then I'm sorry but I'll have to admit that I'm him. Aren't rules put in place to be followed, and not broken or pushed to their limits?

I honestly believe that if everyone would just stay in the guidelines, and not try to push or take advantage of the your (the staffs) leniency/laid backness (I know it's not a word :p)/etc, then you all would be more lenient like it was several years ago, no?

cause

2012-03-07 00:14:53

Edit: Cause, I do think I see a few too many infractions from you for swearing :/


Sorry to be a bother but do you mind linking to the one/s in mind?

Boreas

2012-03-07 17:13:23

Cut swearing, religion, and politics from all but the pit. This is a learning/technology forum, not a haxor forum or sythe*. I have the freedom of speech to order lobster at mcdonalds, but I don't, there's a time and place for everything.

*And yes, I know swearing is not exclusive or inclusive to either category, but think of it from a 5,000 foot perspective, like a judge would.

WT-Fakawi

2012-03-07 18:12:28

From: Boreas
Cut swearing, religion, and politics from all but the pit. This is a learning/technology forum, not a haxor forum or sythe*. I have the freedom of speech to order lobster at mcdonalds, but I don't, there's a time and place for everything.

*And yes, I know swearing is not exclusive or inclusive to either category, but think of it from a 5,000 foot perspective, like a judge would.


I like that. Thanks.

noidea

2012-03-07 23:06:17

From: cause
Just like voters who don't vote.


Look mate, I'm actually getting upset over this. This religious method of infracting for any unsavoury language at any time is not right. You obviously have a religious back round - most of us don't. Don't inflict your beliefs on others. At this point, you're just using a previously unenforced forum rule as your support.

Yes, theres a time and place for everything. I am annoyed by the constant memes and trolling. But if some guy wakes up in the morning with his cash stack wiped, I refuse to infract him. I don't even believe that a post with a 'swear word' should receive a warning, unless deserved beyond a reasonable doubt.

But Christ mate, this is ridiculous.

Cause, don't take it as a blow against your character. Its not meant to be unless you interpret it to be. It's just my opinion on a subject.

cause

2012-03-08 01:42:33

I apologize you are getting upset about this, and I have 2 (more lol) points to make:
A. I have started to pm instead of even warning, someone had mentioned that even a warning can be too much for a newcomer, and I've had only good results BUT
B. I want to make SRL somewhere where someone from ANY background can be here without being offended.

As I said, I have started PM'ing, but the people I have the most problem with are repeat offenders, especially SRL members.

Also, noidea if you think I come from a religious background, why would you say "Christ mate, this is ridiculous"?

WT-Fakawi

2012-03-08 01:57:14

From: cause
I apologize you are getting upset about this, and I have 2 (more lol) points to make:
A. I have started to pm instead of even warning, someone had mentioned that even a warning can be too much for a newcomer, and I've had only good results BUT
That's what I always do if I see stuff I dont like, (as many of you have noticed)

From: cause
B. I want to make SRL somewhere where someone from ANY background can be here without being offended.
That will not be possible. People are easily offended. But, no bad in trying.

From: noidea
..if some guy wakes up in the morning with his cash stack wiped, I refuse to infract him…
Have to agreed on this too. My day would be ruined. I'd express that in the loudest words I can think of. Hell, I'd even go punish random people here.

Gu3st...

2012-03-08 02:32:43

From: WT-Fakawi
Have to agreed on this too. My day would be ruined. I'd express that in the loudest words I can think of. Hell, I'd even go punish random people here.
One time you're saying swear words is bad, the other it's okay, and you'd even do it yourself.

What exactly is your opinion? As much as I'd like us to all to agree, it's kind of hard to do so when it's hard to grasp what opinions other people have.. :o

HyperSecret

2012-03-08 11:32:07

From: WT-Fakawi
In order for point 1 to work Let it be said that cursing/swearing is not allowed, only in the Pit. Positive cursing giving expression to one's joy I personally like very much, so I'd personally keep that, but read on.


From: WT-Fakawi
I like that. Thanks.


From: Zyt3x
One time you're saying swear words is bad, the other it's okay, and you'd even do it yourself.

What exactly is your opinion? As much as I'd like us to all to agree, it's kind of hard to do so when it's hard to grasp what opinions other people have.. :o


He didn't express where he would make his post at…(he said it is fine in the Pit)

I really don't see why there is being so much discussion about this, tbh. I agree 100% with Boreas on this one. There is a time and place for swearing and the Pit is the only place it should be allowed on these forums. I don't go into my work/school setting swearing (I know these forums aren't work) or even on a regular basis in life. Why not, right? Because, we all know the majority of swearing makes a person look childish/foolish/immature. That is always one thing that has kept me at SRL, is the sole fact that we are more mature than any other botting/rs community out there. You allow swearing in places other than the Pit, then you are just making this community look childish and immature.

Honestly, I don't want to be a part of a immature and childish feeling/looking community.

And about it being OK for celebrating/being really pissed and outside of the Pit, then so be it. The poster should recognize the fact that if they do such a thing they risk a warning/infraction. I personally, at least, give a warning whenever I see swearing outside the Pit, if I see it excessively then I infract.

WT-Fakawi

2012-03-08 17:06:08

From: Zyt3x
One time you're saying swear words is bad, the other it's okay, and you'd even do it yourself.

What exactly is your opinion? As much as I'd like us to all to agree, it's kind of hard to do so when it's hard to grasp what opinions other people have.. :o
You gotta know me by now :smile:
I listen to all parties, I give it a lot of thought and then I give my opinion. The answers are here and all of you provided them.

Zytex:

Excessive swearing would also be infractable. Excessive swearing would fall in the "if it's directed at people, and users feel offended by it." (bolded) section. I think all posts containing swear words deserves a warning, and then those who are directed at other people and where people feel insulted or offended, deserves an infraction.


Combined with Boreas:

Cut swearing, religion, and politics from all but the pit.


and Hypersecret:

And about it being OK for celebrating/being really pissed and outside of the Pit, then so be it. The poster should recognize the fact that if they do such a thing they risk a warning/infraction. I personally, at least, give a warning whenever I see swearing outside the Pit, if I see it excessively then I infract.


and all others that have given valuable input, we now have a set of rules to work with.

  1. No swearing outside the Pit.
  2. People swearing outside the Pit not directed towards others may recieve a warning.
  3. People swearing outside the Pit directed towards others will recieve an infraction.
  4. Religion and politics all but the Pit and Discussion and Debate.

About the may: We are from all over the world, from all ages, all races and all religions, an all have fundamentally different views on life; what one SSRL regards as offensive, may be appreciated by another SSRL. But nevertheles we respect each other, act responsible and stay positive and open-minded. Try to avoid trouble. That as much can ask from you.

Should there be more to add?

EDIT: How about publishing convos/PM's/IRC's etc? I am thinking I am alone in this. You guys are silenty rewriting privacy.

Kyle Undefined

2012-03-08 17:18:44

I can agree on all those points, and it makes total sense. What about posts like these? It's in the Pit, and it's not directed towards anyone, and he is following the rules.

From: footballjds
…

oh, and the rules officially changed so it's officially within the rules to swear here if it's not aimed at someone

FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK YEAHHH :spot::spot::spot::spot:


I find it disrespectful to be honest, it adds nothing to the post and is just taking advantage of a rule.

I'm just trying to be clear, for posts like this in the future, as I'm sure it will happen again.

WT-Fakawi

2012-03-08 17:19:51

From: Kyle Undefined
I can agree on all those points, and it makes total sense. What about posts like these? It's in the Pit, and it's not directed towards anyone, and he is following the rules.



I find it disrespectful to be honest, it adds nothing to the post and is just taking advantage of a rule.

I'm just trying to be clear, for posts like this in the future, as I'm sure it will happen again.

This is where you show you're worth it.

Coh3n

2012-03-08 17:43:00

He should be infracted for that. But I can guarantee you shit will hit the fan if he gets one. He'll make another thread. I wouldn't be upset if he just got banned. :p

Markus

2012-03-08 17:50:37

He's provoking us. Just ignore, don't bite.

cause

2012-03-08 21:41:27

EDIT: retracted comment
EDIT2: Sound good WT

Gu3st...

2012-03-09 03:55:15

I like it WT-Fakawi, absolutely agreeable.

BraK

2012-03-09 04:16:41

I like it considering it about the same thing as we've always had ;)