SRL Archive - Discussions and Debates

Hi, I am just making this friendly little thread to express some issues I have with the forum moderation team/staff.

1) Very little communication; it's such a pain to get in contact with a mod who isn't busy/is able to do something.

2) Increased strictness on rules that shouldn't even be enforced in this section; I made someone angry enough to go back over a week's old post, to report my non-offensive use of "cuss words". http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=941060#post941060 being the post. I have asked a few mods and all won't tell me/ignore me, so this ties into point #1. If I made you (the post reporter) angry in some way, tell it to my face instead of being so passive-aggressive. I'd bet 99% chance he wasn't offended or cared, he just wanted to get people in trouble for no reason.

How are we to find and work out problems if you all go hide in a hole? I have been a member of this forum for years and years, and I will admit I have had pretty shameful behavior in the past. I just do not like the new moderation techniques of warning people over such stupid stuff. Never have I heard of such things happening before. I thought most of those rules are set to make people look more friendly/stop kids from filling every post with the word "fuck" because it's the cool thing to do. And let's be honest, an hour of TV kids are exposed to much worse things than a "curse word". Also, it's against the rules for anyone under 13 to be here, and the same applies to any high school, even 20 seconds in the hallway they'll hear most obscene stuff than this entire forum database.

I understand you mods are probably busy with life and such, but that doesn't mean you should ignore messages when you're active. If you can't take dealing with people, then demote yourself from a position that requires such interaction.

This thread is not intended to be a flame, but rather a small spark that will hopefully increase communication between staff and the "lower members".

This isn't just about me, so please pay more attention to point #1 if you would. These cases are making me uncomfortable.

Thanks for listening to my wine, and I hope this comes out with good success. We are a community, not some lifeless Javabot site. INTERACT with the users and help make the community a better place, not just be an e-police over stuff that offends no one.

PS: let's keep members stuff in members. Again, this isn't a flame, and I expect all posts in this thread to be mature and ontopic, so I will be disappointed if this is moved to public bbq in the morning. Thanks!

I agree.

Last week I was infracted for dropping the f bomb on a thread I created because I was hacked. When I tried to get in contact with the person, I couldn't get a response.

I don't take anything personal, its just it would have been nice if I had direct contact.

Think some of the Mods take the cussing thing a little too far…..

I've had a mod tell me "damn" is breaking that rule.

To be honest, I believe we may need more active Moderators out there for villavu, I maybe wrong but that is the only solution I can suggest, but again I maybe wrong. Also the cursing I believe have been under-controlled and been taken care of?

Hey dude, it's nice to see you putting up a thread like this, and you do raise some good points.
1) I wouldn't know, I never pm them
2) It's just a warning, that no one can see besides you, so I don't see the big deal. However in the bigger picture of things, I personally have noticed you swearing (I even attempted to warn you once, but you are a mod so I can't) and then you used the defense of "doing it with taste/and/or not directed at anyone". I can tell you that:
A) Swearing offends me. I hear it a lot (actually not every day now which is nice [university>highschool]), and, I find it offensive and repulsive.
B) I will infract for it. Every time I see it.

I always think of my little brother, who is 10 now, who is starting to get into computers. I want to make this forum a place where he doesn't HAVE to learn about the horrors of the internet just because "he sees it every day"; He doesn't.

We all agreed to the rules of this forum when we signed up, and they have definitely kept us from crumbling like all the other forums we see appearing and then disintegrating around us.

From: cause
2) It's just a warning, that no one can see besides you, so I don't see the big deal. However in the bigger picture of things, I personally have noticed you swearing (I even attempted to warn you once, but you are a mod so I can't) and then you used the defense of "doing it with taste/and/or not directed at anyone". I can tell you that:
A) Swearing offends me. I hear it a lot (actually not every day now which is nice [university>highschool]), and, I find it offensive and repulsive.
B) I will infract for it. Every time I see it.

I always think of my little brother, who is 10 now, who is starting to get into computers. I want to make this forum a place where he doesn't HAVE to learn about the horrors of the internet just because "he sees it every day"; He doesn't.

We all agreed to the rules of this forum when we signed up, and they have definitely kept us from crumbling like all the other forums we see appearing and then disintegrating around us.

It's disappointing you're offended, and I don't understand how harmless words used in a non-derogatory manner could possibly offend someone. How do you justify a WORD to be "horror"? What kind of world are you living in that an English world is a horror?

I am not enough of a jerk to tell you how to raise your family or say you're doing anything wrong, but I believe that being "protective" like that will positively develop a child. Is he going to be homeschooled for the rest of his life? Is he not going to have any human interaction for the rest of his life? Being so shielding will make someone socially awkward. Sorry if I'm being distasteful about talking about your family, but you brought it into the discussion. If you don't want to see those "terrible words", (which he will see at school no matter how much you try), go and install a filter on your computer- I can give you some links if you'd like. And I'll just throw this out here: no one under 13 years old is allowed to register to these forums.

I fail to see how words are so horrible and that words used in a non-derogatory manner is going to make "the forums crumble". It's quite the opposite. Users who feel like they can't say what they want will crumble forums. Enforcing a rule that was intended to be used to just prevent kids from spamming that stuff around and not just using the words in a non-derogative manner, is just silly. This is life, cope with it. English is a beautiful language that should be used to its fullest, even if you don't like some of its uses.

I like you cause, I just think you're being a bit overzealous.

I've had non offensive posts edited in the past unless telling someone that an offer of 25M is too low for something worth +75M is a new curse word.


Harry well knows it costs 50M+ for the training and we all know YoHoJo gives me bulk pins for 15M. Brak finally apologized for it today, although over 2 weeks later. I am not mad at Brak, I am more upset at the _________ that reported that post for being offensive and then de-repped me and wrote "dick move .." on it.

This is more of an attitude problem than moderation, stupid moderation reports are not acceptable for non-public sections. I would at least expect JMembers, Members, and SMembers to be mature enough not to get offended when someone says no to them or anyone else. I am not going to sell something of mine for a price I don't agree with just to be nice and not make people cry. I am disappointed at the de-rep I got from that Junior/Member+ thread. SRL Members and the like are supposed to display good character and be friendly and helpful towards others and the community. Not call me "bitch" or write "dick move" on my de-reps. How can we claim a curse free forum when every single post as a tool with which to curse, bully, and offend people anonymously? Add report reputation option or stop claiming that this forum is a nice place where people don't offend because Markus as well as other members on this forums have seen the kind of reputations I get.

EDIT:

Boreas told me that if I ever reported another thread and it wasn't really "that" offensive, that he would infract me the next time on a warning pm he sent me. So now I don't ever report posts unless is a spam bot or an obvious offense because I can't be asked getting banned for stupid shizits. Yet I get warnings for reporting someone who was flaming me in my thread and people get away with stupids reports like the one above?

I can't remember ever getting an infraction, so I'm not sure how big the problem is. But what is the big pro of using curse words? I believe non. Of course when you're frustrated you might use a few, but overall it shouldn't happen a lot. Also is there at the moment any difference between:

Directed at nothing:

Finally a ten hour progress report!

Fuck Yeah!!!

Directed at a product or object:

Fuck windows, a blue screen again.

Directed at a company:

Fucking citroen doesn't know how to build cars!

Directed at a person:

Obama is even a bigger piece of shit than Bush.

Directed at a SRL user:

Fuck you masterBB, I need that yes vote to get srl member scripts.

I personally believe that the first two or three should be acceptable as long as it's not part of your average post. I don't see how that could harm or offend people.

From: masterBB
I can't remember ever getting an infraction, so I'm not sure how big the problem is. But what is the big pro of using curse words? I believe non. Of course when you're frustrated you might use a few, but overall it shouldn't happen a lot. Also is there at the moment any difference between:

.

I personally believe that the first two or three should be acceptable as long as it's not part of your average post. I don't see how that could harm or offend people.

I agree with you. I only use "bad words" in a classy manner, being the first few examples. None are ever meant to offend someone or attack them, but rather to be used as an extreme modifier in English.

All those on the list will be infracted by at least one mod though, which disapoints me. Context is important, not the actual words used. But the mods don't care about context of words for some reason, as cause said it offends him so he will be removing all he sees with any word in it even in the non-derogatory ways. Hopefully the rules get modified so either it's clear cut that we will be infracted for any "bad words", or reworded so it only defines "bad words" used against other people/being overused.

It's really unfair with the current system. Life's unfair yes, but it doesn't have to be like we are prisoners here. Mods are for keeping forums clean from spambots, not harmless words. Get a filter if you don't like it, and if it's really not allowed in all cases, use the vbulletin filter for it.

From: Harry
Get a filter if you don't like it, and if it's really not allowed in all cases, use the vbulletin filter for it.

^This is currently being discussed at the moment.

@Harry I reported that you wanted that warning reverse but it's up to the admins to determine if they want to reverse it. As I've stated before all Replies I get to any warnings and/or infractions get reported and added to the discussion on that infraction. I do this to allow others staff to decide for themselves what they wish to do. If a user find the f bomb offensive in all forms and reports it. When it is in direct violation of the rules in the first place. Would I be morally correct to ignore the report? The staff don't search the forums for every piece of inappropriate language. I did that once just to see and can tell you there are a lot. We only follow through on things we see or things that get reported. Most times it's the later that you have to worry about.

But you won't say who it was for some reason. What's that reasoning? I asked you a few times and you completely ignored me on that question. I'd like to know who was angry enough at me to browse week old posts just to report it, so I can avoid talking to them in the future. This joins onto point #1 of no communication, there needs to be more transparency between users. How are we to have a tight community of friends if we can't even be friends with our fellow users because they are passive-aggressive children who simply won't work out their differences?

From: Harry
And I'll just throw this out here: no one under 13 years old is allowed to register to these forums.

COPPA only applies to forums hosted within the United States. United States Federal Law has no jurisdiction outside of its federal territorial boundaries - get used to the fact that the United States don't run the world. Besides, there are no commercial profits for Villavu's leaders (excluding ads and donations).

IMHO, swearing should be kept down to an absolute minimum, and constant abusers hiding under the defence that "it wasn't directed at anyone" should be still be infracted imho regardless.

From: Harry
But you won't say who it was for some reason. What's that reasoning?

Have you ever heard of anonymity regarding such issues? There is no need for you to know who reported your post. All you need to know is that someone deemed it worthy to need to report the post, and that you should minimise what you conducted in that post to prevent any future mishaps.

From: Daniel
COPPA only applies to forums hosted within the United States. United States Federal Law has no jurisdiction outside of its federal territorial boundaries - get used to the fact that the United States don't run the world.

Lol, this is very incorrect. For one, villavu is on a .com which is a US-based TLD. And yes, the US does run the Internet. Every single DNS rootserver is hosted in the US.

From: http://www.ftc.gov/privacy/coppafaqs.shtm
Foreign-based websites must comply with COPPA and the Rule if they are directed to children in the United States, or if they knowingly collect personal information from children in the U.S. The definition of “operator” under both COPPA and the Rule includes foreign-based websites that are involved in commerce in the United States or its territories. As a related matter, U.S.-based websites that collect information from foreign children also are subject to COPPA and the Rule.

That's like saying copyright law doesn't apply to you because you don't live in the US.

Have you ever heard of anonymity regarding such issues? There is no need for you to know who reported your post. All you need to know is that someone deemed it worthy to need to report the post, and that you should minimise what you conducted in that post to prevent any future mishaps.

That's wrong and terrible logic to have. You live in the nanny state of Australia, so I can see why you think a good way to solve issues between people is to have someone intervene instead of two users getting past their differences. Just censor everything, that won't cause unrest! It will make everyone happy and all users will get along just fine! No.

Both the Netherlands as the US claim this site. All countries except for the US recognize this site as dutch.

From: masterBB
Both the Netherlands as the US claim this site. All countries except for the US recognize this site as dutch.

It's an English site that also accepts registrations from minors. It's not a big deal, I'm just saying there shouldn't be people here under the age of 13, and they have already seen worse in school or on TV probably. If they shouldn't be seeing these words they should install a filter on their own computer. Parent's fault, not mine. It's just arguing over schematics now.

For a personal note, I usually pm people instead of giving out infractions. I believe in a friendly warning. I know I have had raunchy language in the past - my hacked accounts/rsbuddy thread. I was lucky enough to only receive a warning for a horribly insulting post. I rectified the situation. Now I don't agree with infracting every post. It really depends on the persons situation. I would probably not infract someone if they were upset about just being hacked etc, unless they were directly insulting another forum member. These situations vary a lot.

So, basically your problem is:

• We don't have enough time to communicate.
• We don't always enforce the rules properly.

If you find instances on the latter, then just contact the staff member and ask him to explain his or her actions. We're only humans.

As for the first, it might be a good idea to get a few more moderators as the forum is seeing significant growth, but I don't think you can disapprove of the fact that we live our own lifes - lifes that have nothing to do with SRL or the internet.

It's more like you ask a moderator a question and they buzz off and ignore you. And I think the rules need a revision. So you're mostly right.

So what exactly changed in ~2011? Suddenly the mods turned strict and enforcing stuff that was never enforced before, as it wasn't a problem to anyone. No one cared if someone said "bad words", as long as they weren't spamming it or attacking another user. Just look through older posts, so many "bad words" said by higher users. Once the java bots rolled back in, suddenly we are uptight people who can't see a word posted in non-attacking manners without cutting themselves. It doesn't make the forums look more mature at all; it makes the forums look like it's moderated by children who get deeply offended over the littlest things. I don't say this to be mean, but that's honestly how it comes off as, for any user visiting here. Nice and friendly community unless I use a forbidden word!

PS: swagger aka dixienormus is just a big troll troll who tries to circumvent the rules with these excuses. He attacks users and uses them negatively. I am not. I just wish we can talk more freely and have more clear cut member communications. Transparency fixes problems.

From: Harry
And I think the rules need a revision.

Was released today. About 5 min ago.

This is interesting, I don't actually know where my position is on this topic, but the way I handled this on my clans forum (Was leader for 5 years, about 60 active members who posted on a daily basis)

I set up a filter to prevent the use of vulgar language, I pretty much kept it to words I wouldn't want children to hear. I allowed words like "damn, crap, stupid, idiot" As they were just not as offensive.

If someone avoided the filter I didn't warn them, I infracted 20% (100% = perm ban) This method worked VERY well, we never had a ban from vulgar language.

I disagree with how it's revised. It honestly should be more relaxed and allowed, if it's being used as a non-derogatory extreme noun/verb modifier.

I just don't see why it's suddenly become an issue in the past year. No one really cared at all about it until the Java bots broke and those people came over here. It just makes us look like elitist jerks / children who can't take harmless words.

I have good intentions for villavu, and I can honestly say language filtering for non-derogatory use is not a positive change to the forums. It isn't my forum, so Wizzup and whoever can do what they want, but I simply urge you to follow my ideas.

And let's be frank, a user saying "frick" instead of "the f word", "crap" instead of "the s word"… are these ANY less offensive? NO! In your head you will instantly associate each with another. Should we start dishing out warnings for those? It's such a silly rule!

From: Harry
I disagree with how it's revised.

Well the staff went through multiple revisions of it and this is what we have decided on as a whole.

That's lovely, then hopefully this thread and my posts would make you change your minds.

I don't really care about context but using curse words to get a point across seems unprofessional/not-classy.

But I don't really mind them, don't use them myself, and don't think differently of people who do (unless you spam them).

I don't understand why it is such a big deal for you to not swear Harry (and others), even in your "classy" way. It's against the rules, always has been, and still remains, so I don't understand why you are digging in your heels so hard about something that is already set in stone.
And your argument of saying my brother will hear those words at school and in life anyways, so why not get him started young, is total rubbish.

From: cause
I don't understand why it is such a big deal for you to not swear Harry (and others), even in your "classy" way. It's against the rules, always has been, and still remains, so I don't understand why you are digging in your heels so hard about something that is already set in stone.
And your argument of saying my brother will hear those words at school and in life anyways, so why not get him started young, is total rubbish.

It was never enforced until recently, so what changed? It was fine being a non-concern, so what made it become so strictly enforced?

And no, I never said you should "start young", just that it shouldn't be a major concern to you.

And for what it's worth, the built in smiles (and are displayed as default) are a lot more offensive than any word that could possibly be said here, for example:
:f::sasmokin:

BTW @ Daniel: http://villavu.com/index.php?pageid=pstatement - villavu says it follows COPPA there.

my opinion - I think bad language should be allowed if its said jokingly or directed at no one on the forums. if we're trying to stop like under 13's from becoming exploited with bad language ect then I think what harry said earlier about parents filtering would be a better option.

From: Harry
That's lovely, then hopefully this thread and my posts would make you change your minds.

Don't count on it, it was discussed at length, and that's what we decided on. There's really no reason to swear at all, no matter who/what it's directed it. I don't see how it's such a problem for you.

I can't comment on replying to PM's and such as no one has ever PM'd me for said reasons, but I do reply to all PM's sent to me.

Thing is, I remember in 07 through late 08, no one ever infracted/warned you if you used a 'bad' word, as long as you're not insulting anyone. The admins back then we're pretty chill
(Wizzup, Sumillion, Boreas, RAM, Tara, The Claw, Hobbit, and some others…) Hell even Fawki used to have some 'bad' words in his posts. No one cared, no one was bothered, because nobody insulted anybody.

I think the complaint here is that these infractions are going over board. I'm not saying we should allow posts that go like "FUCK FUCKTY FUCK FUCK", but simple posts like "Oh shit man that sucks", "God damn!", "I can't believe I f*cking forgot :p", shouldn't result in infractions.

I understand the staff changed, but this is a mature forum, with matured users.
The claim that we will turn into the next Rsbot if we allow swear words is really weak because we've been using these words for so long and we're still the cleanest forum around.

From: kingarabian
Thing is, I remember in 07 through late 08, no one ever infracted/warned you if you used a 'bad' word, as long as you're not insulting anyone. The admins back then we're pretty chill
(Wizzup, Sumillion, Boreas, RAM, Tara, The Claw, Hobbit, and some others…) Hell even Fawki used to have some 'bad' words in his posts. No one cared, no one was bothered, because nobody insulted anybody.

I think the complaint here is that these infractions are going over board. I'm not saying we should allow posts that go like "FUCK FUCKTY FUCK FUCK", but simple posts like "Oh shit man that sucks", "God damn!", "I can't believe I f*cking forgot :p", shouldn't result in infractions.

I understand the staff changed, but this is a mature forum, with matured users.
The claim that we will turn into the next Rsbot if we allow swear words is really weak because we've been using these words for so long and we're still the cleanest forum around.

A mature forum shouldn't need to swear at all. Your examples aren't directed at anyone, but would make the exact same point if you left out the "bad" words. "God damn" may offend someone who's religious, I don't know.

The point is, there's really no need to swear. You can make your point without swearing. You don't like the infractions given? Don't swear. It's not a hard concept to grasp. The staff discussed the new rules and the majority agreed. If you don't like the new rules, leave.

From: Coh3n
A mature forum shouldn't need to swear at all. Your examples aren't directed at anyone, but would make the exact same point if you left out the "bad" words. "God damn" may offend someone who's religious, I don't know.

The point is, there's really no need to swear. You can make your point without swearing. You don't like the infractions given? Don't swear. It's not a hard concept to grasp. The staff discussed the new rules and the majority agreed. If you don't like the new rules, leave.

the point is, if you live your entire life in fear of offending someone, you still will.
You just wasted your entire life and you STILL offended someone.

If ppl aren't steadfast in their religion and get offended by that, they don't believe in their religion. Seriously, why should we be concerned?

From: footballjds
the point is, if you live your entire life in fear of offending someone, you still will.
You just wasted your entire life and you STILL offended someone.

If ppl aren't steadfast in their religion and get offended by that, they don't believe in their religion. Seriously, why should we be concerned?

I don't live in fear of offending someone, I was just saying it may offend someone.

My point is there's no reason to swear, it doesn't strengthen any argument, so why bother, especially if it's against the rules? It's not difficult to understand.

From: Coh3n
I don't live in fear of offending someone, I was just saying it may offend someone.

My point is there's no reason to swear, it doesn't strengthen any argument, so why bother, especially if it's against the rules? It's not difficult to understand.

i understand why we don't swear, because it's against the rules.

I don't understand why a rule was made to protect someone's fragile self-esteem…

Swearing to get your point across does nothing to that affect, it actually does the opposite. It's childish and immature.

Why swear just because you can? Why push the limits?

Can we throw the entire because it's in the rules argument in front of a train please? It's a meaningless one. Sounds like anti gay-marriage arguments: don't allow it because it's not a real marriage.

From: Markus
Can we throw the entire because it's in the rules argument in front of a train please? It's a meaningless one. Sounds like anti gay-marriage arguments: don't allow it because it's not a real marriage.

lol?

"because it's in the rules" is the ONLY reason i don't swear.

From: footballjds
i understand why we don't swear, because it's against the rules.

I don't understand why a rule was made to protect someone's fragile self-esteem…

That's not the reason it was made. Well, I mean, it's part of it.

Yeah, swearing offends some people while others couldn't care less, but the way I look at it, is in real life swearing isn't encouraged, so why should it here (not that removing the rule would encourage it, but I'm sure you know what I mean). We just feel that there's no need to swear to help someone with a scripting problem, or give them advise on how to bot.

Whether it offends someone or not, it's not necessary. That's why we have the rule. Obviously, there's going to be people who disagree with the rules, it's like that everywhere. We (the staff) can't see every post, so we have to trust each others judgement to give infractions and warnings. Sure, I may give an infraction that Hobbit completely disagrees with, at which point it's handled in the higher boards.

There's always going to be people who disagree with community leaders, but that doesn't mean they automatically have the right to break the policies laid out for them.

From: Coh3n
A mature forum shouldn't need to swear at all. Your examples aren't directed at anyone, but would make the exact same point if you left out the "bad" words. "God damn" may offend someone who's religious, I don't know.

The point is, there's really no need to swear. You can make your point without swearing. You don't like the infractions given? Don't swear. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

Look we aren't in Elementary school anymore to the point where we should not be able to swear. Is this how you guys are IRL? When someone says "haha fuck off Cohen" in a joking way, do you get mad? You guys now appear to be socially challenged.

If you actually cared about someones feelings being hurt because of religious reasons, then take a visit to the debate's section. Lot's of nasty stuff there.

The staff discussed the new rules and the majority agreed.

No, this is what you call a dictatorship. A few group of people that hold power are now imposing it on others to make sure they follow their own made up rules. If you actually put out a poll for all the members to vote, then you would get a different result.

If you don't like the new rules, leave.

Don't stoop this low to tell me to leave. I find it really childish for you to tell someone to leave because you are being challenged. If you can't stand being challenged then you shouldn't be an admin.

From: Coh3n
That's not the reason it was made. Well, I mean, it's part of it.

Yeah, swearing offends some people while others couldn't care less, but the way I look at it, is in real life swearing isn't encouraged, so why should it here (not that removing the rule would encourage it, but I'm sure you know what I mean). We just feel that there's no need to swear to help someone with a scripting problem, or give them advise on how to bot.

…

There's always going to be people who disagree with community leaders, but that doesn't mean they automatically have the right to break the policies laid out for them.

Swearing isn't discouraged irl where i live… My workplace(I'll refrain from posting company name, but it's computer consulting mainly) is full of people who swear. I'd say this is real life…

commas aren't required in a sentence but it sure helps…

I don't agree with the community leaders, but I'm not going to break the rules or "policies" as you've called them.

From: kingarabian
Don't stoop this low to tell me to leave. I find it really childish for you to tell someone to leave because you are being challenged. If you can't stand being challenged then you shouldn't be an admin.

I wasn't actually telling you to leave. I should have worded it differently to be more clear.

No one is forcing you to be here. If you feel that strongly about it, you have the option to leave.

From: Coh3n
I wasn't actually telling you to leave. I should have worded it differently to be more clear.

No one is forcing you to be here. If you feel that strongly about it, you can leave.

^ You're still wording it wrong, because now you're telling me to leave.

From: kingarabian
^ You're still wording it wrong, because now you're telling me to leave.

no, he's telling you what you already know. If you feel that strongly about it you can leave.

can
-Be able to: "they can run fast";

can doesn't mean, "THEY MUST RUN FASTER OMGGGG"

From: kingarabian
^ You're still wording it wrong, because now you're telling me to leave.

No, I'm saying you have the option to leave.

From: footballjds
commas aren't required in a sentence but it sure helps…

Lol, are you insulting my punctuation?

From: kingarabian
Thing is, I remember in 07 through late 08, no one ever infracted/warned you if you used a 'bad' word, as long as you're not insulting anyone. The admins back then we're pretty chill
(Wizzup, Sumillion, Boreas, RAM, Tara, The Claw, Hobbit, and some others…) Hell even Fawki used to have some 'bad' words in his posts. No one cared, no one was bothered, because nobody insulted anybody.

I think the complaint here is that these infractions are going over board. I'm not saying we should allow posts that go like "FUCK FUCKTY FUCK FUCK", but simple posts like "Oh shit man that sucks", "God damn!", "I can't believe I f*cking forgot :p", shouldn't result in infractions.

I understand the staff changed, but this is a mature forum, with matured users.
The claim that we will turn into the next Rsbot if we allow swear words is really weak because we've been using these words for so long and we're still the cleanest forum around.

'back then' I got infracted for using some abusive language, lol.

From: Coh3n
No, I'm saying you have the option to leave.

So if I disagree about a rule I should leave? Like even if I spent the 5 years here and been through everything? /Facepalm.

First off, a dictatorship is supreme rule by one person. A small group with supreme rule is an oligarchy.

Second, this is not a democracy so putting it to public vote is irrelevant. This have always been in the rules, there is no difference between then and now. Sure, we were a little more lenient in the past, but that is because the community handled it maturely and did not take our leniency and graciousness for granted. That is not the case anymore. You take our leniency and graciousness as a right and demand it of us. We owe you nothing, you do not have the authority to demand anything.

If one day they community as a majority because mature enough to respect our leniency then we maybe will one day give it again. But as soon as you take it for granted, do not expect it to continue.

From: Coh3n
No, I'm saying you have the option to leave.

Lol, are you insulting my punctuation?

no, i was referencing your tidbit about(I'm not directly quoting, going of my memory) "swear words aren't required to help someone script"

no, they aren't required to help someone script

From: Coh3n
Lol, are you insulting my punctuation?

No, he was comparing commas to curse words.

Also would a poll, maybe members+, be a big problem. That would be a good test to see how the average user looks at this rule.

Nope, a poll would not be a big problem.

I agree with you Harry about not being able to contact mods, but I don't see why not swearing is a big deal. You might think the rule is stupid, but when it comes down to it I think it just makes the forums as a whole look less intelligent.

From: masterBB
No, he was comparing commas to curse words.

Also would a poll, maybe members+, be a big problem. That would be a good test to see how the average user looks at this rule.

this^^

and i'd be content with swearing allowed in upper boards(as long as it's not up above me. haha)

From: Hobbit
First off, a dictatorship is supreme rule by one person. A small group with supreme rule is an oligarchy.

Second, this is not a democracy so putting it to public vote is irrelevant. This have always been in the rules, there is no difference between then and now. Sure, we were a little more lenient in the past, but that is because the community handled it maturely and did not take our leniency and graciousness for granted. That is not the case anymore. You take our leniency and graciousness as a right and demand it of us. We owe you nothing, you do not have the authority to demand anything.

If one day they community as a majority because mature enough to respect our leniency then we maybe will one day give it again. But as soon as you take it for granted, do not expect it to continue.

You know if it aint broke then there is no need to fix. Back then little warnings/infractions were given out and everyone was happy. Now for some reason yall decide to change and the results are agitated members. I don't get the logic behind all this.

From: kingarabian
So if I disagree about a rule I should leave? Like even if I spent the 5 years here and been through everything? /Facepalm.

I said if you want to, you can leave. Not that you should leave or that I want you to leave.

From: footballjds
no, i was referencing your tidbit about(I'm not directly quoting, going of my memory) "swear words aren't required to help someone script"

no, they aren't required to help someone script

Completely misunderstood that. :p It was just an example. My point was for the purpose of these forums, there's no need to swear.

From: Coh3n
A mature forum shouldn't need to swear at all. Your examples aren't directed at anyone, but would make the exact same point if you left out the "bad" words. "God damn" may offend someone who's religious, I don't know.

There is a massive difference between "Oh shit, yeah"
& "fuck off you twat"

I agree the second should get an infraction as its just simply immature and brings the tone of the forums down.

I got a infraction for

From: jakeyboy29
Shit server, no one here gives a Two Cents.

But not for my display picture?


I would like it if i didnt get an infraction for this debate.

From: kingarabian
You know if it aint broke then there is no need to fix. Back then little warnings/infractions were given out and everyone was happy. Now for some reason yall decide to change and the results are agitated members. I don't get the logic behind all this.

We changed as you (meaning the community) changed. Yes, there was a much more harmonious time in the past, but the past is the past. And until you (the community) returns to the more mature state it was in, we cannot. As SRL Members you are suppose to be the role models of the community.

From: Hobbit
We changed as you (meaning the community) changed. Yes, there was a much more harmonious time in the past, but the past is the past. And until you (the community) returns to the more mature state it was in, we cannot. As SRL Members you are suppose to be the role models of the community.

And we are still awesome role models just like how we were in the past. Maybe go into full detail on how we have become immature in you're eyes? If anything, a lot of us are now grown up and much more mature.

The community has not changed really… It's the staff.

The amount of vilgarities was much less, the context of the vulgarity was much different. There was much less flaming and attacking.

How has the community not changed? We have had thousands of new users in the last couple months, that is a pretty big change. And don't say "we are the same", you do not make up the community. There are only around 500 SRL members total out of over 80,000 registers users. Far less than 500 that are active. You make up less than a drop in the bucket of this community. And the rules are for the whole community, not just a portion of it.

From: Hobbit
The amount of vilgarities was much less, the context of the vulgarity was much different. There was much less flaming and attacking.

How has the community not changed? We have had thousands of new users in the last couple months, that is a pretty big change. And don't say "we are the same", you do not make up the community. There are only around 500 SRL members total out of over 80,000 registers users. Far less than 500 that are active. You make up less than a drop in the bucket of this community. And the rules are for the whole community, not just a portion of it.

It's just overreacting on you're guys part. Simple as that. 2007 we had more active members than we did now and everything was fine and dandy.

Like I said it's the staff changes.

Because we go through staff much faster than users join the community…

A new admin comes along once, maybe twice a year in rare occasions. Mods probably once a year. Fact is, the rules have stayed constant, I did the rewrite and I can tell you 99% of the rules are the same. They have merely been reworded to make them more clear and understandable. The staff really has not changed much.

From: Coh3n
A mature forum shouldn't need to swear at all. Your examples aren't directed at anyone, but would make the exact same point if you left out the "bad" words. "God damn" may offend someone who's religious, I don't know.

The point is, there's really no need to swear. You can make your point without swearing. You don't like the infractions given? Don't swear. It's not a hard concept to grasp. The staff discussed the new rules and the majority agreed. If you don't like the new rules, leave.

Why are so many people so concerned about offending people now of days? It's so inane to worry about offending people or not. If someone gets offended, so what? They can be offended all they damn well please. It doesn't mean they gain any rights simply over their offense. If I don't like someone saying "bot" on this forum, I install a filter that will replace all cases of "bot" with "macro". Anyone who takes offense can do the same thing.

If you are so afraid of offending someone, or if you have gotten offended over something, then why don't you just ignore them and move on? I've used the Internet since I was about 6 years old, and it's the same thing every day, except people are suddenly offended over routine stuff all of the sudden. People need to stop worrying about others crying over WORDS that aren't intended to defame or attack someone else.

Anyways, about the ridiculous argument "it makes you look immature to say these words", SO WHAT?! I don't give a damn if someone thinks I behave like a 12 year old online. You guys shouldn't care either! It's the most inane thing ever to care about what others think about someone else's behaviour, especially when the person is well aware of what they are doing.

From: Hobbit
Because we go through staff much faster than users join the community…

A new admin comes along once, maybe twice a year in rare occasions. Mods probably once a year. Fact is, the rules have stayed constant, I did the rewrite and I can tell you 99% of the rules are the same. They have merely been reworded to make them more clear and understandable. The staff really has not changed much.

I don't have problems with the rules at all. It's just how they are enforced that are bothering a lot of people. A lot of overreacting…

From: kingarabian
Look we aren't in Elementary school anymore to the point where we should not be able to swear. Is this how you guys are IRL? When someone says "haha fuck off Cohen" in a joking way, do you get mad? You guys now appear to be socially challenged.

There's a time and place for everything. You wouldn't want to say "fuck off" in front of your grandmother now would you? If someone said that to me in a joking matter, I wouldn't care, unless it was around people who I wouldn't want to hear it. (My lil bro, young cousins/nieces/nephews, etc). How do people who are against swearing on the forums appear socially challenged?

From: footballjds
My workplace(I'll refrain from posting company name, but it's computer consulting mainly) is full of people who swear. I'd say this is real life….

Same here, my coworkers swear, but it doesn't bother me. It's also not in every sentence said, or paragraph. When I get pissed at the code I'm writing, a "what the fuck" slips out but that's about it. It happens, people swear, but it shouldn't be allowed. Also, my coworkers only swear around good company.

From: Griff
but I don't see why not swearing is a big deal. You might think the rule is stupid, but when it comes down to it I think it just makes the forums as a whole look less intelligent.

This. I honestly don't have an issue with swearing. It just makes the community look less mature.

From: kingarabian
I don't have problems with the rules at all. It's just how they are enforced that are bothering a lot of people. A lot of overreacting…

Before I took my 2 year break, the forums weren't nearly as active as they are now. Why? Because everyone was at the other cheating communities. I can't stand them, nothing but trolling, swearing, and stupidity fills them. Now, everyone is coming here. With an influx of users, rules that were less strict when there was less users are going to be enforced more, especially when the new users are coming from said communities.

From: Kyle Undefined
There's a time and place for everything. You wouldn't want to say "fuck off" in front of your grandmother now would you? If someone said that to me in a joking matter, I wouldn't care, unless it was around people who I wouldn't want to hear it. (My lil bro, young cousins/nieces/nephews, etc). How do people who are against swearing on the forums appear socially challenged?

You wouldn't say fuck off infront of your grandma because it would be an insult, lack of respect. But here, we're all here to mess around with RS and have a good time.

They appear to be socially challenged if they can't handle swearing that's not directed at anyone…

From: kingarabian
You wouldn't say fuck off infront of your grandma because it would be an insult, lack of respect. But here, we're all here to mess around with RS and have a good time.

They appear to be socially challenged if they can't handle swearing that's not directed at anyone…

I'm not saying you were directing it toward her, but just in ear shot where she could hear you say it.

What if you said "What the fuck" in front of her? It's not directed towards anyone, so it should be fine to say, no?

If cursing were allowed it would often be too hard to say when it's directed at someone and people would still complain.

From: Kyle Undefined
I'm not saying you were directing it toward her, but just in ear shot where she could hear you say it.

What if you said "What the fuck" in front of her? It's not directed towards anyone, so it should be fine to say, no?

No there is a difference. If we indeed had politicians, grannys, parents, and all these important people that require respect, no one would be swearing. But in reality we are a group of members that consist of teenagers thru young adults, and we are all here having fun.

From: kingarabian
No there is a difference. If we indeed had politicians, grannys, parents, and all these important people that require respect, no one would be swearing. But in reality we are a group of members that consist of teenagers thru young adults, and we are all here having fun.

How is there a difference? Everyone deserves that respect. Not just people who are "above" you.

From: kingarabian
No there is a difference. If we indeed had politicians, grannys, parents, and all these important people that require respect, no one would be swearing. But in reality we are a group of members that consist of teenagers thru young adults, and we are all here having fun.

Why do you need to curse to have fun? I think seeing cursewords all around is not so fun.

From: Kyle Undefined
How is there a difference? Everyone deserves that respect. Not just people who are "above" you.

Aite then, so what if I told you to change you're scripts name because it's 'offensive'. Won't you be like "God this kingarabian is overreacting… Im just joking around".

If you honestly found it offensive, then yes, I'd change it.

When did swearing become the norm; that "people" are required to swear to fit in (Social norm statement). Why this sudden change, this community has children and adults who just would rather not see swears if they weren't forced to.

I just don't see validity here, there are plenty of other ways to express something instead of swearing.

From: kingarabian
If we indeed had politicians, grannys, parents, and all these important people that require respect, no one would be swearing.

How do you know we do not? I know for a fact that members on here are parents. Brak is a parent, Fakawi is a parent (to Wizzup), there are many parents on here. We have both military officers and high ranked non-commissioned members. I wouldn't be surprised if out of our 80,000+ members we have a couple people involved in politics, or even lawyers.

The fact is, you don't know what type of people frequent these forums. You don't know who may read your post now, or 5 years from now.

I still don't think "damn" is a bad word….

From: Hobbit
How do you know we do not? I know for a fact that members on here are parents. Brak is a parent, Fakawi is a parent (to Wizzup), there are many parents on here. We have both military officers and high ranked non-commissioned members. I wouldn't be surprised if out of our 80,000+ members we have a couple people involved in politics, or even lawyers.

The fact is, you don't know what type of people frequent these forums. You don't know who may read your post now, or 5 years from now.

I think it's pretty safe to say we have 20+ officers from at least 7 different countries and about 30+ non-comissioned officers from 10 countries. The amount of parents on here is probably 200+ and most of us love this community and would one day like to involve our children in this community.

Why is swearing so immature?

Swearing is just unprofessional (unless you're a rapper; then you're just "unprofessional" anyways).

We're differentiating ourselves from other communities by not acting childish. I don't get how it's that hard to understand or why someone would want to be able to swear enough to complain about it. There's more grey-area added when some situations are allowed and it would lead to a heavier burden on moderation.

You say that swearing is an excellent way to strengthen your argument, yet you do not use it when arguing here? Because you know that swearing will just lower your point because it's unnecessary and unprofessional.

First off swearing is unprofessional? Who in the world said that? You might want to see a psychologist on that one. It is entirely false. I have 7 Mech. Engineering Profs that swear and will offend you. Why? because engineers swear in real life. Doesn't matter when or how, they all do it. If putting their hands in a machine and pulling your hair out to save your life while swearing because it hurts like hell isn't professional then that's your opinion LOL. I've been in the field long enough. Programmers don't swear? You gotta be kidding me.. Piss them off and see what comes outta their mouths. Yet I know a ton of programmers that are professionals and still swear when a nasty memory leak puts them in a repetitive bsod reboot.

Good luck arguing that Swearing is unprofessional.

Stupid rules imo.. can infract me for saying it..

1:
The SRL Staff retains the right to ban any user at any time for any reason and without question.

That's one of the reasons IceFire left.. Dumbest rule of all.. For any reason and without question.. hahaha that a joke? Power hungry much?

2:
Scripts posted on the SRL forums must not contain any obfuscated. Obviously not malicious.. but stupid.
I personally love digging into security as shown in a shitload of my previous posts.. that right there is the most ridiculous bannable rule I have ever read. AFAIK I can script anything and make the script how I want as long as I'm not going to compromise the accounts of others.

3:
It is not allowed to post in any section outside the off-topic category when intoxicated or under severe influence of drugs.

Not only has this rule been broken by staff so many times that it's ridiculous.. Not a single person who is under the influence will obey this rule or even remember this when they're posting.. Not that I will be because when i'm drunk I'm never near a comp or a phone so meh.. but stupid rule is stupid if it's going to be broken by our own staff and members aren't going to obey it under the influence..

4:
You have no rights and are entitled to nothing. Not a rule but saying that alone makes me feel like I shouldn't even be here if I'm going to belong in a communist environment.. Might as well go to scar where I can talk like a human being and voice myself because after all I am ENTITLED to an opinion whether you like it or not.

5: No Leeching.. Stupid rule because new members will never obey it.. what is the point of having it there? They come here because a friend invited them or because they watched a 5 minute video on youtube redirecting them here telling them to download the working "Simba bot 2012". Use the leechers to make your script better instead of driving them away.. Get them to report bugs.. that is all that is required IMO to be a member of this community. Sorry. They are contributing and getting people to come here.

6: Spam Advertisements Not a stupid rule at all.. but staff do nothing to stop spam bots.. A VPN gets around this, a simple simba script with google chrome destroys the captchas on the register page. How do I know? Because I posted that script on the last thread asking for ideas on how to stop them.. already reported that Chrome bug.

From: ggzz
First off swearing is unprofessional? Who in the world said that? You might want to see a psychologist on that one. It is entirely false. I have 7 Mech. Engineering Profs that swear and will offend you. Why? because engineers swear in real life. Doesn't matter when or how, they all do it. If putting their hands in a machine and pulling your hair out to save your life while swearing because it hurts like hell isn't professional then that's your opinion LOL. I've been in the field long enough. Programmers don't swear? You gotta be kidding me.. Piss them off and see what comes outta their mouths. Yet I know a ton of programmers that are professionals and still swear when a nasty memory leak puts them in a repetitive bsod reboot.

Good luck arguing that Swearing is unprofessional.

Stupid rules imo.. can infract me for saying it..

1:
The SRL Staff retains the right to ban any user at any time for any reason and without question.

That's one of the reasons IceFire left.. Dumbest rule of all.. For any reason and without question.. hahaha that a joke? Power hungry much?

2:
Scripts posted on the SRL forums must not contain any obfuscated. Obviously not malicious.. but stupid.
I personally love digging into security as shown in a shitload of my previous posts.. that right there is the most ridiculous bannable rule I have ever read. AFAIK I can script anything and make the script how I want as long as I'm not going to compromise the accounts of others.

3:
It is not allowed to post in any section outside the off-topic category when intoxicated or under severe influence of drugs.

Not only has this rule been broken by staff so many times that it's ridiculous.. Not a single person who is under the influence will obey this rule or even remember this when they're posting.. Not that I will be because when i'm drunk I'm never near a comp or a phone so meh.. but stupid rule is stupid if it's going to be broken by our own staff and members aren't going to obey it under the influence..

4:
You have no rights and are entitled to nothing. Not a rule but saying that alone makes me feel like I shouldn't even be here if I'm going to belong in a communist environment.. Might as well go to scar where I can talk like a human being and voice myself because after all I am ENTITLED to an opinion whether you like it or not.

5: No Leeching.. Stupid rule because new members will never obey it.. what is the point of having it there? They come here because a friend invited them or because they watched a 5 minute video on youtube redirecting them here telling them to download the working "Simba bot 2012". Use the leechers to make your script better instead of driving them away.. Get them to report bugs.. that is all that is required IMO to be a member of this community. Sorry. They are contributing and getting people to come here.

6: Spam Advertisements Not a stupid rule at all.. but staff do nothing to stop spam bots.. A VPN gets around this, a simple simba script with google chrome destroys the captchas on the register page. How do I know? Because I posted that script on the last thread asking for ideas on how to stop them.. already reported that Chrome bug.

First of all, you're putting words in peoples mouths, your first paragraph is full of it. Not once did someone say that "programmers don't swear", and not all engineers swear. THAT is just your opinion, and isn't factual in any way.

Also, your scenario makes no sense, what so ever. This isn't about who swears, but swearing on these forums. Swearing is unprofessional. Tell me this, since swearing is so professional, then why doesn't politicians, news reporters, company execs, etc swear every chance they get when they are debating, reporting, business meetings, etc? Yes, people swear when they're around the ones they know and have a good relationship with. Would you walk into a meeting with a client you've never meet and just start swearing while you're talking? If so, you honestly don't know what professionalism is.

I have a mouth like a sailor, and yes, I slip up from time to time, but I control it when it's not needed. I get absolutely livid when I spend a few hours writing code and someone tells me that they changed the idea and I have to redo all of it again. Bugs piss me off, and I let a "Oh what the fuck" out while at the office. Swearing doesn't offend me, there's just a time and place for it.

I think your confusing swearing in general with swearing where it's not needed, that what this debate is actually about, no?

There's my argument for why swearing is unprofessional. Here's my take on your "points"

1. You've been here what, a little over a year? There is A LOT of back history that you probably don't know about. IceFire is a great scripter, but his attitude is what lead to his demise. He was obviously not happy here, so I honestly don't know why he didn't do the professional and mature thing and just leave peacefully. So no, that rule is NOT why he left. The staff was fed up with the way he was acting, warned him several times through out the whole dilemma, were lenient with allowing him to stay, he pushed the last straw and had to suffer the consequences.

2. This rule is in place for people who are the total opposite of you. It protects the leechers or the ones who can't/don't want to read code and keeps them from complaining if their account does get wiped. Also, how can someone learn from obfuscated scripts? This is a learning community first, so obfuscating public scripts stops that. I learned how to script by looking at what others have done, combing through their code to see how it all worked. That would not of been possible if they were obfuscated.

3. The posts made by the people under the influence were before this rule was added, iirc. You can't call people out for doing something if a rule didn't exist at the time it happened.

4. You're entitled to an opinion, but the staff, villavu, or it's users owe you nothing. After all, this is their forum and community.

5. I can understand where you're coming from on this one, to me it doesn't make any sense. Getting them to report bugs, or progress reports is very hard. Most of the new users don't even post anything until something is broken and give little to no information as to why. There's not much that can be done to be honest.

6. Staff has done something to stop it, and how often do you see a spam bot post now? Hardly ever, and yes, some get through, but that is what comes from running an online community.

From: Daniel
You say that swearing is an excellent way to strengthen your argument, yet you do not use it when arguing here? Because you know that swearing will just lower your point because it's unnecessary and unprofessional.

Obviously because I don't want to be infracted. Don't try to be a smartass, please.

From: ggzz
1:
The SRL Staff retains the right to ban any user at any time for any reason and without question.

That's one of the reasons IceFire left.. Dumbest rule of all.. For any reason and without question.. hahaha that a joke? Power hungry much?

2:
Scripts posted on the SRL forums must not contain any obfuscated. Obviously not malicious.. but stupid.
I personally love digging into security as shown in a shitload of my previous posts.. that right there is the most ridiculous bannable rule I have ever read. AFAIK I can script anything and make the script how I want as long as I'm not going to compromise the accounts of others.

3:
It is not allowed to post in any section outside the off-topic category when intoxicated or under severe influence of drugs.

Not only has this rule been broken by staff so many times that it's ridiculous.. Not a single person who is under the influence will obey this rule or even remember this when they're posting.. Not that I will be because when i'm drunk I'm never near a comp or a phone so meh.. but stupid rule is stupid if it's going to be broken by our own staff and members aren't going to obey it under the influence..

4:
You have no rights and are entitled to nothing. Not a rule but saying that alone makes me feel like I shouldn't even be here if I'm going to belong in a communist environment.. Might as well go to scar where I can talk like a human being and voice myself because after all I am ENTITLED to an opinion whether you like it or not.

5: No Leeching.. Stupid rule because new members will never obey it.. what is the point of having it there? They come here because a friend invited them or because they watched a 5 minute video on youtube redirecting them here telling them to download the working "Simba bot 2012". Use the leechers to make your script better instead of driving them away.. Get them to report bugs.. that is all that is required IMO to be a member of this community. Sorry. They are contributing and getting people to come here.

6: Spam Advertisements Not a stupid rule at all.. but staff do nothing to stop spam bots.. A VPN gets around this, a simple simba script with google chrome destroys the captchas on the register page. How do I know? Because I posted that script on the last thread asking for ideas on how to stop them.. already reported that Chrome bug.

As Kyle said, you have not been here long enough to understand the point of these rules.

1. Has always been there, obviously didn't read the ToS/Privacy Policy when you signed up. Almost any community/website has that policy. Almost anything has that policy.

2. We used to allowed obfuscated code, but there were password stealing scripts left right and center. Sure, make the script however you want, just make sure its not obfuscated. This rule was in place before you even joined this community.

3. Again, as Kyle stated, this rule came into effect after the instances you are talking about and because of those instances.

4. We don't provide you of your opinion so really you saying "I'm entitled to my opinion" is pointless. What that statement is saying is, we owe you nothing. We are not paid, we do not profit from this community. We do this out of our free time and our generosity. Thus, it is outrageous when people demand things of us. Hence the statement that you are entitled to nothing, as you are not.

5. Stupid or not, its there and always has been.

6. Do not accuse us of doing nothing about it. The staff, and myself personally, have worked our butts off improving this problem. I have spent hours researching the best solution. We have spent weeks trying new ways and tweaking things trying to get it just right. How dare you accuse us of "do[ing] nothing to stop spam bots". Crap like this is what makes us need to include the statement of you are entitled to nothing.

From: Harry
Obviously because I don't want to be infracted. Don't try to be a smartass, please.

Uh huh…

That's why none of your script OP's have swear words in them? That's why none of your discussion threads have any in them to strengthen your point of view (recent one I found, http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62784 )? Do explain.

How about I will for you? BECAUSE YOU KNOW BETTER!

EDIT: Also, for your argument that kids are exposed to this type of swearing in school: would you swear to your teacher/or right in front of one? I seriously doubt it.. The same rules apply here. Just like a school that has rules which has a major population of young kids and teenagers, VillaVu has similar rules too.

From: ggzz
First off swearing is unprofessional? Who in the world said that? You might want to see a psychologist on that one. It is entirely false. I have 7 Mech. Engineering Profs that swear and will offend you. Why? because engineers swear in real life. Doesn't matter when or how, they all do it. If putting their hands in a machine and pulling your hair out to save your life while swearing because it hurts like hell isn't professional then that's your opinion LOL. I've been in the field long enough. Programmers don't swear? You gotta be kidding me.. Piss them off and see what comes outta their mouths. Yet I know a ton of programmers that are professionals and still swear when a nasty memory leak puts them in a repetitive bsod reboot.

Good luck arguing that Swearing is unprofessional.

Lol @ citing that your engineering professors swearing at you makes swearing professional.

Let me ask you some questions. Why do you think they don't allow swearing on air TV, why don't news reporters just drop F-bombs when reporting to make their stories oh so much more interesting, did you hear Steve Jobs swear during presentations to at conferences introducing a product? Does Warren Buffet swear in his annual letter to shareholders?

Sure, someone may drop some words in a personal exchange, but when people are in the spotlight of their peers and held to scrutiny, I don't see it often.

From: Daniel
That's why none of your script OP's have swear words in them? That's why none of your discussion threads have any in them to strengthen your point of view (recent one I found, http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62784 )? Do explain.

How about I will for you? BECAUSE YOU KNOW BETTER!

Stop acting stupid. You understand I only use it rarely and in extreme cases when it's "needed". That's the whole point of this thread. If you don't understand this, I have some bad news for you.

From: ggzz
engineers swear in real life.

Just gonna point out because this part kind of annoyed me. I'm an engineer and I don't swear…
I don't have any particular issues with others swearing though I just try not to myself.

What are swears really? Words that people have deemed offensive would be my guess. Much in the same way that you can use the word bear to mean two completely different things, I think that a "swear" used in two different contexts can mean two completely different things. Personally, I would take it like that, but I can't speak for everyone

The higher you are up in the ranks, I would become less and less lenient (much like everyone would freak out if the president said a swear regardless of context), but I would tend to agree that a lot of the reactions here are over reactions on both sides.

I would suggest to the people with the power - if context is not going to play a part in whether or not people get infracted (i haven't looked at the evidence, so I don't know if that is the case one way or the other), then you might as well install a vBulletin addon to bleep out swears to save yourselves the trouble.

I would suggest to the people without the power - if you really care all that much about infractions and rep and whatnot, then you might want to not "swear" since it really isnt that hard not to.

Actually these politicians u speak of that don't swear.. That's bs.. When they do, they just apologize that's all. They still do though.. Its not unprofessional at all unless of course u abuse the words 24/7.. The reason they even apologize is because their uppers pressure them.. As for using longevity on me.. Dead wrong.. I've been around srl since 06-07 something like that.. Triumphost was my name on scar-divi.. Don't judge my longevity by my age on Villavu.. When srl-forums got taken down I simply left.. Don't remember that username so I made this account.. And because I was quiet before doesn't mean I wasn't around..

And that influence rule was there since time.. When I made this account it was there so don't bs me about it being new..

Lemmie know when last the php script in the db for spam bots has been updated.. It's the same thing from google with exactly 30 different images.. So it is correct that nothing had changed but the rules

Edit: Cannot reply to everything since i'm on my phone..

Obviously you didn't read the rules when you joined as it was put in place after the fact.

We have gone through a lot more drastic attempts than the captcha for spam bots.

From: Hobbit
Obviously you didn't read the rules when you joined as it was put in place after the fact.

We have gone through a lot more drastic attempts than the captcha for spam bots.

Is that so? Your a higher up. Check my account and see how many times i've read the rules and check how many times i've been in an argument over them.. then tell me that I haven't read it before the new ones were added.

Yes there were additions to the rules and I did notice them but saying that the influence rules wasn't there before is total bs to defend the staff. I've seen the rules there long before the change.

If you seriously wanna argue what was there and what wasn't I'll gladly link you to a thread that has moved from being outside of the NOTA while it was a drunk post.. and it was dated 01/22/12.. which is long before the change in rules. Even google cache has copies of the threads.. AND it broke two rules at once which was argued the last time another user got a warning.

From: ggzz
If you seriously wanna argue what was there and what wasn't I'll gladly link you to a thread that has moved from being outside of the NOTA while it was a drunk post.. and it was dated 01/22/12.. which is long before the change in rules. Even google cache has copies of the threads.. AND it broke two rules at once which was argued the last time another user got a warning.

I believe you refer to this post: http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72921

iirc it was not posted in nota, but I in news. Not sure though, was some time ago.

From: ggzz
If you seriously wanna argue what was there and what wasn't I'll gladly link you to a thread that has moved from being outside of the NOTA while it was a drunk post.. and it was dated 01/22/12.. which is long before the change in rules. Even google cache has copies of the threads.. AND it broke two rules at once which was argued the last time another user got a warning.

The influence rule wasn't added a couple days ago. That's not what Hobbit said. The rule wasn't there a few years ago and was added because of "under the influence" threads.

The way I see it is you're making a pointless argument. We don't get paid for anything we do, so like Hobbit said, we don't owe you anything. We laid out these rules because we thought they would be better for the community (and like Hobbit said, they're almost exactly the same as before, they're just clearer). I see a lot of people post about how this is the friendliest community they've been a part of, but I guess that's because we (the staff) don't do our jobs properly, right? Clearly, we must be doing something right if so many people feel that way.

If you're really pissed off about the rules that much, deal with it. There's always people who disagree, you're just making a huge deal out of it, and it's going no where.

Most of this thread is just bickering back and forth about issues that have nothing to do with Harry's topic. It would be nice if everyone could just accept the rules the way they are and move along. You claim you've read the rules many times in the past, yet you bring up all these points now? The revised rules are 95% exactly the same as before, and like we've said, they're just reworded to be more clear.

From: ggzz
Yes there were additions to the rules and I did notice them but saying that the influence rules wasn't there before is total bs to defend the staff. I've seen the rules there long before the change.

Here's a link to the rules after the switch to villavu, no mention of the influence rule anywhere. http://web.archive.org/web/20090328091631/http://www.villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6964

Here's a thread from 2006, still no mention about that rule. http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1164

And here's another one, and still no mention, http://villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=162

That's all the digging I'm going to do, took me 10 minutes to find these. Please post your threads or proof of this rule.

From: ggzz
Actually these politicians u speak of that don't swear.. That's bs.. When they do, they just apologize that's all. They still do though..

Find me a video of Obama swearing. It is the general expectation that the higher your position is, the more professional and reserved you are supposed to act.

I totally agree with the ability to swear on these forums because it really doesnt make that big of a difference, but I wouldn't say that the admins should go one way or the other because it's their choice. I just think that there should be a clear ruling one way or the other. If its going to make that big of a ruckus to allow swearing in any form, then compile a list of banned words and get a VB addon to block them. Even then though the intent behind the words is still there, so I feel like it makes more sense to rule based on intent than content.

From: Dan Cardin
Find me a video of Obama swearing. It is the general expectation that the higher your position is, the more professional and reserved you are supposed to act.

I totally agree with the ability to swear on these forums because it really doesnt make that big of a difference, but I wouldn't say that the admins should go one way or the other because it's their choice. I just think that there should be a clear ruling one way or the other. If its going to make that big of a ruckus to allow swearing in any form, then compile a list of banned words and get a VB addon to block them. Even then though the intent behind the words is still there, so I feel like it makes more sense to rule based on intent than content.

Obama called Kanye West a Jackass once.

Point is: Stop over reacting over small cuss words. As long as we're not going "fuck fuckty dick lips" all over the place, it should be fine. Of course if you catch someone cussing in 5 posts on the very same day you could give out a warning. Just be lenient.

@Hobbit: Oligarchy's, and all similar powers that can relate to a dictatorship end up failing. It's not the members becoming immature it's the new staff.

I think, this has somewhat gone past the point of the thread, why are we on about others now, let's keep our focus on just members of SRL, not members of congress, they're all assholes we know it.

I haven't really run into any issues like this yet… personally. I kind of like what the admins/mods are doing around with users and how they are dealing with certain situations.

From: kingarabian
Point is: Stop over reacting over small cuss words. As long as we're not going "fuck fuckty dick lips" all over the place, it should be fine. Of course if you catch someone cussing in 5 posts on the very same day you could give out a warning. Just be lenient.

Just because you think it "should be fine" does not mean that it is fine. We have decided that it is not fine. That is our decision, that is what is going to happen. The only place you may swear (But not in excess) is the BBQ Pit. WT-Fakawi has spoke on this matter in higher boards, and this is what it will be. As said before, no one is forcing you to stay here, but if you choose to, you will obey the rules.

From: kingarabian
It's not the members becoming immature it's the new staff.

What new staff? Brak? Cohen? Nava? Zyt3x?

They all do a phenomenal job.

From: Hobbit
What new staff? Brak? Cohen? Nava? Zyt3x?

They all do a phenomenal job.

Thanks Hobbit :)


Although we all try to respond the way the community wants us to do (or in some cases, expect us to), sometimes those feelings are not the way Staff should respond.

I believe in morality instead of iniquity, but if there is something you feel I could have done something differently then please, send me a PM and we can discuss the matter in an open, mature and friendly manner. Building up negative energy about a person/persons will only do harm. Think of it as an earthquake; many tiny ones does no evil, but one huge one does no good.

From: Hobbit
What new staff? Brak? Cohen? Nava? Zyt3x?

They all do a phenomenal job.

I think he is referring to members with staff-level abilities, namely SSRL members.