SRL Archive - Discussions and Debates

I will admit that I am relatively new, but I've seen a lot of general hating on reflection on these boards.

Between using iBot Nexus bots and scripts here, I can see how powerful and clean reflection can be versus color.

Does the hate stem from its past of not having updated hooks and not people being devs, then it's worthless or what?

I've seen comments that "its too easy". If you're really trying to program as a challenge then make a more in depth reflection script or actually use a real language, haha.

It just seems like Reflection has so many benefits and ease of use over conventional color that I would wonder why everyone doesn't use it.

in b4 "thats what makes our bot different than all the others"

i dont really hate it, i'll use it when i feel like it. it's just that color is usually just as good at walking/ object finding than reflection, except for some occasions.

From: Awkwardsaw
i dont really hate it, i'll use it when i feel like it. it's just that color is usually just as good at walking/ object finding than reflection, except for some occasions.

I don't know about 'just as good' but with Reflection, you use a lot less lines, need a lot less failsafes, and is more resistant to RS updates (unless it's like a total interface, ID change).

I had problems with color where the script would run fine until there was some random guy wearing the same color armor as the furnace, monster, etc and it would have to check him first each time, etc.

From: smurg
and is more resistant to RS updates

I literally laughed out loud.

First off I don't think many people hate reflection. If they do, I'd also like to hear their reasoning.

Reflection either works 100% or 0%, so it is both very reliable, and not reliable at all. Before your time, reflection was out for many months, while now it is out for a short period each week (see graph by Harry). You also missed 300+ hour progress reports from a color script. Granted, that was one script and the use of armies played a part (which weren't very common without free trade), but other scripts also got impressive reports. We still haven't seen that beaten by reflection, but hopefully one day we will with reflection and color.

All on-screen things reflection can do (Clicking objects, tabs, items), color can do

From: smurg
I don't know about 'just as good' but with Reflection, you use a lot less lines, need a lot less failsafes, and is more resistant to RS updates (unless it's like a total interface, ID change).

I had problems with color where the script would run fine until there was some random guy wearing the same color armor as the furnace, monster, etc and it would have to check him first each time, etc.

with the use of atpas, that wouldnt even matter, as for lines, all you need to do is copy and paste a single object finder function, a single walking function that you used in previous scripts(i've used the same object finder since my very first power cutter), the rest is just logic, practicly the same as reflection. it's also easier to get colors than it is to get ids and tiles

From: Zyt3x
All on-screen things reflection can do (Clicking objects, tabs, items), color can do

It just takes twice the lines and time?

What about withdrawing items from banks, from different tabs, for any item in runescape? Try making DTMs for all that.

From: TomTuff
I literally laughed out loud.

Kind of a stupid comment I made haha but maybe I was thinking like big updates instead of the every update hook updates.

I know they made lots of changes in respect in the coloring of different things and haven't seen any big interface or ID changes personally.

From: smurg
It just takes twice the lines and time?

What about withdrawing items from banks, from different tabs, for any item in runescape? Try making DTMs for all that.

openbankfast();
depositall;
deposit();
SearchBank();

From: Boreas
First off I don't think many people hate reflection. If they do, I'd also like to hear their reasoning.

Reflection either works 100% or 0%, so it is both very reliable, and not reliable at all. Before your time, reflection was out for many months, while now it is out for a short period each week (see graph by Harry). You also missed 300+ hour progress reports from a color script. Granted, that was one script and the use of armies played a part (which weren't very common without free trade), but other scripts also got impressive reports. We still haven't seen that beaten by reflection, but hopefully one day we will with reflection and color.

16 day proggie, 1 player:

From: smurg
16 day proggie, 1 player:

that's rsbots, not srl

From: Awkwardsaw
openbankfast();
depositall;
deposit();
SearchBank();

Lol @ banking using the search.

Zyt3x said color can do that without search. Which it "could", it would just take 5000 lines and 1 year to create all the DTMs.

And you still have to search for the item from there.

From: Awkwardsaw
that's rsbots, not srl

That's reflection, we're talking about reflection.

It matters what the extent of what reflection can do, not what it can do with our current development. Because not enough people dev for Reflection for whatever reason. On iBot, it's all reflection, and there's some notion of whats possible.

From: smurg
Lol @ banking using the search.

Zyt3x said color can do that without search. Which it "could", it would just take 5000 lines and 1 year to create all the DTMs.

And you still have to search for the item from there.

whats wrong with searching?

pseudo code:

procedure bank;
begin
  if not openbankfast(Bank_EV) then exit;
  depositall;
  if not WithdrawEx(0, 0, 1, ['item name']) then
  begin
    SearchBank('item name');
    if not WithdrawEx(0, 0, 1, ['item name']) then
      exit;
    mousebox(x1, y1, x2, y2, 3);
    getmousepos(x, y);
    dragmouse(x, y, 0, 0, x, y, 0, 0);
    banktab(1);
  end;
  CloseBank;
end;  

From: Awkwardsaw
whats wrong with searching?

pseudo code:
Simba Code:
[LEFT]procedure bank;
begin
if not openbankfast(Bank_EV) then exit;
depositall;
if not WithdrawEx(0, 0, 1, ['item name']) then
begin
SearchBank('item name');
if not WithdrawEx(0, 0, 1, ['item name']) then
exit;
mousebox(x1, y1, x2, y2, 3);
getmousepos(x, y);
dragmouse(x, y, 0, 0, x, y, 0, 0);
banktab(1);
end;
CloseBank;
end;
[/LEFT]

Well Color's whole pitch is that it's less detectable and searching for every item would take an excessive amount of time and would be very non-human.

Especially when you have a Reflection function that can do it in a fraction of the time and switches tabs, etc.

Bank/items are not a problem with color. Nielsie made an auto updating/creating color system for all items ages ago. Anyone is welcome to use it, or use reflection, or use another color method.

From: smurg
Well Color's whole pitch is that it's less detectable and searching for every item would take an excessive amount of time and would be very non-human.

Especially when you have a Reflection function that can do it in a fraction of the time and switches tabs, etc.

so what your saying is, if you need an item in your bank, and have no idea where it is, you scroll through the bank? searching saves time. and even then, if the player set it up correctly, it doesnt even need to search

From: Boreas
Bank/items are not a problem with color. Nielsie made an auto updating/creating color system for all items ages ago. Anyone is welcome to use it, or use reflection, or use another color method.

What include is this?

From: Awkwardsaw
so what your saying is, if you need an item in your bank, and have no idea where it is, you scroll through the bank? searching saves time. and even then, if the player set it up correctly, it doesnt even need to search

I know where my items are, I organize my bank.

Anyways why go through all that when a few reflection functions can do all that MUCH easier.

From: TomTuff
I literally laughed out loud.

Why? Having to update field names each client build doesn't break or make the methods used to gather data any less efficient. It's essentially the same as having to update a color if it changes in-game - your color finding algorithms still work, but you had to change a color to make them work with the current game.

From: smurg
What include is this?



I know where my items are, I organize my bank.

ok, but a lot of people still don't. your missing my point, if your bank isnt organized(setup how its suposed to), its much much faster and human like to just search, instead of scrolling through your bank

From: Awkwardsaw
ok, but a lot of people still don't. your missing my point, if your bank isnt organized(setup how its suposed to), its much much faster and human like to just search, instead of scrolling through your bank

The reflection functions don't scroll, they know which tab it's located on and goes there directly.

Also there is a reflection search function as well. But searching for every single item you need, really? haha. And thats only 1 area compared to finding items on the ground, etc.

I've used lots of color fighters here and item drops was like 10% effective.

From: smurg
The reflection functions don't scroll, they know which tab it's located on and goes there directly.

Also there is a reflection search function as well. But searching for every single item you need, really? haha. And thats only 1 area compared to finding items on the ground, etc.

I've used lots of color fighters here and item drops was like 10% effective.

how many scripts are there that require to withdraw more than one item? it's not that bad.

honestly, auto fighting is the only thing that reflection can significantly do better than color

From: Awkwardsaw
how many scripts are there that require to withdraw more than one item? it's not that bad.

honestly, auto fighting is the only thing that reflection can significantly do better than color

I have Perfect Slayer, and it's on Nexus, and I would love to see color do what it can do.

I've used lots of powerful reflection scripts and want to see it grow here.

From: smurg
I have Perfect Slayer, and it's on Nexus, and I would love to see color do what it can do.

I've used lots of powerful reflection scripts and want to see it grow here.

slaying is an autofighter, choose an other script

From: Awkwardsaw
slaying is an autofighter, choose an other script

It includes the whole bank sorting, web walking, fighting, lots of things.

It doesn't even matter if color 'can' do it, it will take longer to script, is less stable on average.

Reflection is alot more reliable than color on figuring out stats, xp, levels, and it doesn't even have to check the tab.

From: Awkwardsaw
slaying is an autofighter, choose an other script

Dungeoneering (somewhat fighterish), Puro, and vinesweeper.
Note that I do like the use of NPC chatting using OCR and other stuff like that.
Honestly both have advantages and disadvantages.

From: pyroryan
Dungeoneering (somewhat fighterish), Puro, and vinesweeper.
Note that I do like the use of NPC chatting using OCR and other stuff like that.
Honestly both have advantages and disadvantages.

Ya but the disadvantages for Reflection are only in its development and hook updating afaik,

From: smurg
Ya but the disadvantages for Reflection are only in its development and hook updating afaik,

Both of which are significant disadvantages. The lack of people who understand the client is probably the biggest. The future I see is in OCR and OpenGL/DirectX hooking. Not color, bytecode injection, nor reflection.

From: pyroryan
Both of which are significant disadvantages. The lack of people who understand the client is probably the biggest. The future I see is in OCR and OpenGL/DirectX hooking. Not color, bytecode injection, nor reflection.

Are we the first community to take advantage of OpenGl/DirectX?

From: kingarabian
Are we the first community to take advantage of OpenGl/DirectX?

yes, i think so

From: kingarabian
Are we the first community to take advantage of OpenGl/DirectX?

No. In RuneScape macroing, probably.

A lot of the statements in this thread are boundless generalizations that are not true at all, and are either different on a case to case basis and/or just false based on assumptions or lack of a wide enough verity of viewpoints and related knowledge.

People do not hate reflection, people hate bad, detectable, poorly made, or inefficiently coded/performing bots that give botting a bad name. A poorly made reflection script could out perform a semi-good color script on the premise that reflection does indeed make it easier for someone to throw together a script that is not well thought out. I do not like the idea of poorly made reflection scripts being made and people using them thinking they are good simply because they "work good". I base scripts and bots on their philosophy, coding, reliability, and performance as a whole. For me to think it's good it has to have an acceptable amount of all of those for it to be respectable, and reflection can be abused to allow performance to be mocked with little to no effort. Reflection it self can be used in ways you'd have to be crazy to hate. There was a small group of individuals that did actually hate reflection out of illogical rage, but that is pretty non existent modern day, and has been heading that direction for years. I really really, do not understand why the threads keep popping up, but I will continue to try and debunk them until enough people understand.

I'll probably come through again tomorrow and touch up the facts on a lot points that were people made here with some informative things, like the game tabs.

From: IceFire908
A lot of the statements in this thread are boundless generalizations that are not true at all, and are either different on a case to case basis and/or just false based on assumptions or lack of a wide enough verity of viewpoints and related knowledge.

People do not hate reflection, people hate bad, detectable, poorly made, or inefficiently coded/performing bots that give botting a bad name. A poorly made reflection script could out perform a semi-good color script on the premise that reflection does indeed make it easier for someone to throw together a script that is not well thought out. I do not like the idea of poorly made reflection scripts being made and people using them thinking they are good simply because they "work good". I base scripts and bots on their philosophy, coding, reliability, and performance as a whole. For me to think it's good it has to have an acceptable amount of all of those for it to be respectable, and reflection can be abused to allow performance to be mocked with little to no effort. Reflection it self can be used in ways you'd have to be crazy to hate. There was a small group of individuals that did actually hate reflection out of illogical rage, but that is pretty non existent modern day, and has been heading that direction for years. I really really, do not understand why the threads keep popping up, but I will continue to try and debunk them until enough people understand.

I'll probably come through again tomorrow and touch up the facts on a lot points that were people made here with some informative things, like the game tabs.

Why does it matter if you can make a decent script with little effort? Sure the author doesn't have to know too much but if I was doing this to learn programming, I'd be playing with C, etc.

I've seen people go out of their way to not use it because "its to easy" or their like color supremacist or something.

And these are my casual observations with some of the things I said pretty broad; with maybe a certain mindset in place that I didn't communicate.

From: smurg
Why does it matter if you can make a decent script with little effort? Sure the author doesn't have to know too much but if I was doing this to learn programming, I'd be playing with C, etc.

I've seen people go out of their way to not use it because "its to easy" or their like color supremacist or something.

And these are my casual observations with some of the things I said pretty broad; with maybe a certain mindset in place that I didn't communicate.

The problem is that they are not decent scripts, instead they are messily thrown together lines of code that produce performance that does not reflect its true quality. There are many scripts that utilize reflection in a good way, and there are many that don't. Reflection is not that where the hate is directed.

It is easy to interpret what I have said differently than the way I meant for it to be interpreted as.

Basically a script is good or bad because it was coded that way, and it is hated or loved because of what it is, not because of reflection.

I personally enjoy scripting in color more because it is a better display of skill in scripting than using reflection.

I think its easier to show skill when you use color, and is generally more impressive. But that's not to say it isn't possible to make a more impressive reflection version of the same script, just that it would be more challenging to show more impressive innovations.

From: TomTuff
I personally enjoy scripting in color more because it is a better display of skill in scripting than using reflection.

I script for functionality.

I don't see how it's a better display of skill. Sure it's a lot easier to do certain tasks, but you could definitely branch out of the realm of 'normal' scripts using Reflection and add loads of functionality.

Why would you accept more functionality to show off 'skill'?

Code in machine language or binary and then we can marvel at skillz.

HelloWorld in ASM isn't skill. An infinite loop in any language is always bad. Languages (color and reflection could be considered dialects) are just tools, it's how you use them that counts. Using color or reflection does not automatically make something better or worse.

I think it all comes down the the scripter's preference. I, for example, prefer color, simply because 80% of the time I spent scripting, that's all there was. Reflection was broken. Now color is what I'm used to, and I'm confident I could write a color script that's just as good as a reflection script (given some boundaries, of course, because yes, there are things reflection can do that color simply can't).

But in the end, it's up to the scripter. And I know it's been said already, but I don't know one person who hates reflection. I just know people who prefer color.

From: Coh3n
I think it all comes down the the scripter's preference. I, for example, prefer color, simply because 80% of the time I spent scripting, that's all there was. Reflection was broken. Now color is what I'm used to, and I'm confident I could write a color script that's just as good as a reflection script (given some boundaries, of course, because yes, there are things reflection can do that color simply can't).

But in the end, it's up to the scripter. And I know it's been said already, but I don't know one person who hates reflection. I just know people who prefer color.

my thoughts exactly^^

i prefer color because thats what I've used and i feel my competence is superior in color over reflection.

also, hooks is the main reason i don't like reflection.

From: smurg
And thats only 1 area compared to finding items on the ground, etc.

I've used lots of color fighters here and item drops was like 10% effective.

Worked for 342 Hours, 11 Minutes and 39 Seconds
Picked up feathers 79930 times.
Killed 183765 chickens at a rate of 537 per hour

Geez, picked up 80k times, just think if it would have picked up 100%. Oh wait, this script was able to pick up 100% (I never seen it miss at least).

Color CAN do it, you might just need to think instead of just simply doing FindObject(ID);


I am not against reflection at all, I personally like the advantages it can give to our community. BUT it does annoy me when people rant against us not using it more, like it's impossible to get anything achieved without using it…

From: HyperSecret

Worked for 342 Hours, 11 Minutes and 39 Seconds
Picked up feathers 79930 times.
Killed 183765 chickens at a rate of 537 per hour

Geez, picked up 80k times, just think if it would have picked up 100%. Oh wait, this script was able to pick up 100% (I never seen it miss at least).

Color CAN do it, you might just need to think instead of just simply doing FindObject(ID);


I am not against reflection at all, I personally like the advantages it can give to our community. BUT it does annoy me when people rant against us not using it more, like it's impossible to get anything achieved without using it…

What script is this from? I mentioned that color can do a lot of the same stuff, it just takes more work for the same result (and possibly more time in game).

From: smurg
What script is this from? I mentioned that color can do a lot of the same stuff, it just takes more work for the same result (and possibly more time in game).

That's a chickenkiller. Most likely tarajunky's but perhaps munk's

From: HyperSecret

Worked for 342 Hours, 11 Minutes and 39 Seconds
Picked up feathers 79930 times.
Killed 183765 chickens at a rate of 537 per hour

Geez, picked up 80k times, just think if it would have picked up 100%. Oh wait, this script was able to pick up 100% (I never seen it miss at least).

Color CAN do it, you might just need to think instead of just simply doing FindObject(ID);


I am not against reflection at all, I personally like the advantages it can give to our community. BUT it does annoy me when people rant against us not using it more, like it's impossible to get anything achieved without using it…

I agree 100%

Rofl. I just saw a post in some scripting help thread for a smelter.

He said he would use reflection for walking, but he didn't want to because he would get turned down for members then.

If there isn't even merit to that statement, it's the general atmosphere that perpetrated by posts I see. That it doesn't matter what any of his script looks like but if you use reflection to do certain things, then it's shunned.

(Although I did get in on pure Reflection, so I'm sure that's only a minority of voters.)

From: smurg
Rofl. I just saw a post in some scripting help thread for a smelter.

He said he would use reflection for walking, but he didn't want to because he would get turned down for members then.

If there isn't even merit to that statement, it's the general atmosphere that perpetrated by posts I see. That it doesn't matter what any of his script looks like but if you use reflection to do certain things, then it's shunned.

(Although I did get in on pure Reflection, so I'm sure that's only a minority of voters.)

For a while people would vote no based on use of Reflection because it's not part of SRL, and your applying for SRL Members. That's pretty much gone now, but like you said, there may be a very small amount of people who still do it. Most people just vote off logic and efficiency, not what you use these days.