SRL Archive - Senior Discussions and Debates

First off, why the hell does Timer have a masters? http://villavu.com/forum/member.php?u=16829

Second, I would also like to address Dynamite's scripters cup. After looking through his essence miner (which looks like his latest script), I would say he's at a pretty average SRL Members level. Perhaps should have thought about just promoting him to members first? Not too worried about the cup in this case as I think he will be to a point of deserving it fairly soon if he keeps working like he has.

Masters is not what it used to be.

I have no faith in the masters cup anymore. Its inflated.

People granted it without actually asking.. look what happens when people over-ride and make hasty decisions.

I removed the master cup. Whoever gave him that cup needs his mouth washed. Dynamite doesn't really deserve it either.

Should be taken off from Dynamite too if he has it

From: marpis
Should be taken off from Dynamite too if he has it

Dynamite just has Scripters. Though he is a Registered User and surely should have been promoted to members before a scripters cup was even thought about.

From: marpis
Should be taken off from Dynamite too if he has it

No; even though I don't really agree; just removing it is harsh. I don't mind doing this @ Timer, but not for Dynamite.

I do agree he should be ++member though

From: Wizzup?
No; even though I don't really agree; just removing it is harsh. I don't mind doing this @ Timer, but not for Dynamite.

Oh I thought he had masters! :duh:

Timer is an asshole and an idiot. A brilliant programmer anyway.

From: Sir R. M8gic1an
Timer is an asshole and an idiot. A brilliant programmer anyway.

He's not really a good programmer; sorry. We have much more talented people here.

From: Wizzup?
He's not really a good programmer; sorry. We have much more talented people here.

my bad boss

Isn't Dynamite The Man?

Yes.

Isn't ferment MoB? -> yes

He is a member, why not the man?


Edit: that seemed a bit harsh after I posted it. I didn't mean it in a harsh way at all <3

From: Hobbit
Yes.

Isn't ferment MoB? -> yes

He is a member, why not the man?


Edit: that seemed a bit harsh after I posted it. I didn't mean it in a harsh way at all <3

I didn't take it that way. ;)

And the only reason I said that was because The Man was banned from the black market. I don't remember exactly why, but it's just something to think about. He made Dynamite shortly (I think) after he found out he wasn't going to be unbanned from the black market, so I think it's fair to say that's one of the reasons he made Dynamite in the first place.

Not saying he shouldn't be a member because obviously people change, but he was told he was never going to be unbanned from the market, and if he was made a member, technically he would be unbanned, and we may as well just unban The Man.

Definitely should remove promising newcomer though for the same reason I gave RM in the thread about Train being Timer, which I would say ended up being correct.

From: NCDS
Definitely should remove promising newcomer though for the same reason I gave RM in the thread about Train being Timer, which I would say ended up being correct.

Makes sense, but it is kind of mean to take cups away. :p

We can just set his custom permissions to remove his black market privs and he wouldn't even know because he wouldn't have the banned cup :p

From: Hobbit
We can just set his custom permissions to remove his black market privs and he wouldn't even know because he wouldn't have the banned cup :p

Lol possibly.

But if he started the new account so he could get into the black market, there's a slight chance he'd notice. ;)

From: Coh3n
Makes sense, but it is kind of mean to take cups away. :p

Kind of deceiving to have a 'Promising Newcomer' cup if you've been here for years though.

I honestly think we should somehow 'label' all returned banned users, but that's a long shot I guess.

From: NCDS
Kind of deceiving to have a 'Promising Newcomer' cup if you've been here for years though.

I honestly think we should somehow 'label' all returned banned users, but that's a long shot I guess.

Funny thing is, he's not even banned. =\

From: Coh3n
Funny thing is, he's not even banned. =\

Multiple accounts = broken rule = ban?

I say ban Dynamite. Right now it's like instead of trying to "re-earn" his reputation around here, he just made a new account and started neutral…which, IMO is by no means fair.

From: Coh3n
Funny thing is, he's not even banned. =\

Hmmm I didnt even realize that…


Why is he banned from the BM anyways?

Something about JAD's money guide..

But I think Dynamite should actually be banned. :| Multiple accounts is just ridiculous. He also acts as a different person.

Not cool.

From: Nava2
Something about JAD's money guide..

But I think Dynamite should actually be banned. :| Multiple accounts is just ridiculous. He also acts as a different person.

Not cool.

Could be worse. At least he's not using both accounts. I'm assuming he just wanted a fresh start.

Live and let die ppl.

Well lots of people have made new accounts and gotten away from it - can't just ban him now without banning everyone else too. Perhaps have what Sythe has and instead of a "Banned from Blackmarket" have a "Trade with Caution" cup or something. Let people judge for themselves if they wanna trade with him.

Maybe, if we can achieve consensus on this, it might be indeed possible to grant people a 'second chance' seeing there are a lot of members that show regrets and want to stay within the community.

A new usergroup maybe? But, this should not be an honorable title of course.


The main problem is: We cannot prevent people from returning. We can only ban til we drop, and I think that is no option.

Multiple accounts are only worth an infraction these days. As with returning from bans.
I think maybe a cup that denotes they've returned from a ban/multiple accounts?
If we don't want to make it too public can you make certain cups visible to only a certain group?
I dunno, I'm terrible at good ideas….someone will think of something much better :)

My personal policy on returning people has for a very long time been a 2 point permanent infraction.

This means that as soon as they get another one = temp ban.

If they misbehave too much it leads to perma ban.

I think that giving people two chances is fair, I'm not so sure I'd be happy about someone returning a third time, although I would consider a 4 point permanent infraction a possibility.

~RM

From: Sir R. M8gic1an
My personal policy on returning people has for a very long time been a 2 point permanent infraction.

This means that as soon as they get another one = temp ban.

If they misbehave too much it leads to perma ban.

I think that giving people two chances is fair, I'm not so sure I'd be happy about someone returning a third time, although I would consider a 4 point permanent infraction a possibility.

~RM

But 'The Man' isn't banned, though he still made 'Dynamite'. I know for a fact multiple accounts is against the rules and that one should be banned. Just happened not all too long ago with Sex/Da Owner.

Being banned from Black Market, IMO, should definitely result in a warning on any account he has/makes to other people that he may not be able to be trusted. Especially with free trade back.

Drags111/The[Cheese] also made 2 account with none being banned because he wanted a fresh start.

We should just merge the accounts IMO.

He's not using both accounts and he hasn't even applied for members. I'd say just leave him alone for now. He's not causing any harm.

If he does apply for members, his black market access can still be blocked (even without the banned cup)

And keep in mind that the reason he was banned was for plagiarizing JADs money making guide. Not for account stealing or anything.

~RM

From: Hobbit

We should just merge the accounts IMO.

How would that work?

From: Sir R. M8gic1an
He's not using both accounts and he hasn't even applied for members. I'd say just leave him alone for now. He's not causing any harm.

If he does apply for members, his black market access can still be blocked (even without the banned cup)

And keep in mind that the reason he was banned was for plagiarizing JADs money making guide. Not for account stealing or anything.

~RM

I guess you right, as no one should really be trading over SRL outside of the BM anyways. Although, I don't think who wrote the guide matters at all.

The fact is he broke the trust of another member of SRL and got a fresh start just because he wanted to. I could probably sit here and list a few RL instances to justify why this is wrong, but I won't get into that now as I'm not all too worried about it I guess…just bothers me.


I still think at the very least everyone should be informed when a banned user (no matter what for/from) creates a new account.

Everyone's record should be accessible.

@RM: I've also noticed Dynamite has no permanent 2 point infraction, unless you didn't intend it for him?

From: NCDS
@RM: I've also noticed Dynamite has no permanent 2 point infraction, unless you didn't intend it for him?

Dynamite wasn't banned on TheMan.

Please, lets come to a consensus on this. This has gone on for way too long. There have been tons of exceptions to the rule ``no multiple accounts''. Even worse the rule ``returning after a ban''.

For the no multiple accounts rule: If a second account is created, the second account shall be permanently banned and put to death. As a result, one infraction will be administered to the first account. If a third account is created, the user will be permanently banned across all accounts and not allowed to return.

For the return after a ban rule: If you were banned once and returned, you obviously did not understand the purpose of the ban and need be punished tenfold for your ignorance. However I do believe an appeal process should be made, in which an SRL member makes a post on behalf of the banned member, and polls the community for the banned member's return. If allowed to return, the now unbanned user should receive a permanent infraction and be brandished with a negative usergroup/cup.

Whatever the result of this, we must enforce the rules we create. We cannot allow the back-stabbing ban-evading pixel-scamming scumbags of the internet to take advantage of SRL's generosity any longer.

Unfortunately there is no real way for us to track banned users comming back. Be it dynamic ips, proxies, or various other form of avasion there is no sure fire way for us to prevent it. The best we can do is learn who they are again and monitor them.



I do very much like your idea of appeals, we could make an appeal form only viewable to banned users, kind if like the Srl member form. Then make it post in an appeals section, or maybe even the general section as it most likely would be too often.

I think it's pointless to set down such a strict rule.

More often than not I'm happier to see the banned users back, although I still expect them to misbehave. And the better they do the happier it makes me.

I say it needs punishment but it needs to be more lenient.

I say that in a week we smack The Man with 2 permanent infraction points and catch his identity out in public. Make an example of him and see what he says.

~RM

I think what frustrates people is that we do know who some people are and what they're doing. Some people can't hide who they are (like Ian., I'm sure everyone knew luffs was Ian. almost instantly).

Even though we can't track it, we do end up recognizing many people since we are aware.

From: Sir R. M8gic1an
I think it's pointless to set down such a strict rule.

More often than not I'm happier to see the banned users back, although I still expect them to misbehave. And the better they do the happier it makes me.

I say it needs punishment but it needs to be more lenient.

I say that in a week we smack The Man with 2 permanent infraction points and catch his identity out in public. Make an example of him and see what he says.

~RM

Dynamite should receive the same perm infraction points.

TBH, I agree 100% with lordsaturn.

From: Brain
I think what frustrates people is that we do know who some people are and what they're doing. Some people can't hide who they are (like Ian., I'm sure everyone knew luffs was Ian. almost instantly).

Even though we can't track it, we do end up recognizing many people since we are aware.

^this

I also agree with Lordsaturn

~BraK

well imo in a week I'd give the man a permanent infraction. If anyone wants to give him a permanent infraction in the meantime go ahead.

but no one better go crazy cus bullshit infractions jsut cus he's the man won't fly. I actually haven't seen him misbehave since he got back

From: Sir R. M8gic1an
well imo in a week I'd give the man a permanent infraction. If anyone wants to give him a permanent infraction in the meantime go ahead.

but no one better go crazy cus bullshit infractions jsut cus he's the man won't fly. I actually haven't seen him misbehave since he got back

I never saw him misbehave when he was using The Man. He just had the banned from BM cup.

IMO it should hav been a temp BM ban anyways

From: Sir R. M8gic1an
well imo in a week I'd give the man a permanent infraction. If anyone wants to give him a permanent infraction in the meantime go ahead.

but no one better go crazy cus bullshit infractions jsut cus he's the man won't fly. I actually haven't seen him misbehave since he got back

What difference does it make if he doesn't use 'The Man' anymore though?

I would really just like to know how to handle the current rules as I'm not trying to infract/ban if someone has already stated not to for a reason, even though it would just be me enforcing the rules I was aware of.

The rules are there, how you choose to interpret them is up to you.

that's why the christians went on crusades, they rea the bible wrong… not the bible's fault tho.

Dunno the man is a kid (imo) and is harmless in most scenarios. just leave him alone..
I don't really care, but I see no real reason to even move a finger about it.

We know who he is, we know why he's here and he's just fine.

If something isn't broken, don't fix it.

~RM

From: Sir R. M8gic1an
If something isn't broken, don't fix it.

That aphorism has no place here, why would you attempt to end the conversation in this thread with such a thoughtless statement as that? What's broken is the rules we have in place. We, the staff, the SRL community, are consistently breaking the rules we have set in place; by allowing others to break them. Something needs to be done to fix it.

LS, countless times we've said we'd rather keep an eye on returners rather than always being on the lookout for them.

I then suggested giving out more newcomers cup to catch returners more easily because they would definitely stand out.

This is developing a method to catch returners. Before we even consider what we do with them we have to be able to identify them on a consistent basis rather than on word of mouth and shit like that, so that we dont get more threads of the kind 'oh hey, I'm iroki'.

Finally, imo the man is causing no harm, so I couldn't give a shit about this case, as I see things on a case-to-case basis.

From: Sir R. M8gic1an
LS, countless times we've said we'd rather keep an eye on returners rather than always being on the lookout for them.

I then suggested giving out more newcomers cup to catch returners more easily because they would definitely stand out.

This is developing a method to catch returners. Before we even consider what we do with them we have to be able to identify them on a consistent basis rather than on word of mouth and shit like that, so that we dont get more threads of the kind 'oh hey, I'm iroki'.

Finally, imo the man is causing no harm, so I couldn't give a shit about this case, as I see things on a case-to-case basis.

I understand your approach on a case-by-case basis. What I'm saying is that the case-by-case basis is normally still based around a guideline. And the past 5 or 6 cases we have had, the results do not follow the guidelines we have set. So I opt that we change the guidelines to better support our decision making in the future.

The guideline is let them be and know who they are lol

From: Sir R. M8gic1an
LS, countless times we've said we'd rather keep an eye on returners rather than always being on the lookout for them.

I then suggested giving out more newcomers cup to catch returners more easily because they would definitely stand out.

This is developing a method to catch returners. Before we even consider what we do with them we have to be able to identify them on a consistent basis rather than on word of mouth and shit like that, so that we dont get more threads of the kind 'oh hey, I'm iroki'.

May as well re-name the cup 'Returning (Banned) Member' or something then instead of rewarding someone for making a new account here.

Was thinking about this at work today.

Returning users who were banned for item/gold scamming:
- Immediate "Banned from Black Market cup" and a ban from Black Market
- Note on users profile labelling them as a scammer, with their old username
- Assuming we ban the people who scam.

Returning users who were banned for password stealing scripts/malicious computer activity:
- Banned from black market + cup
- User profile note
- A cup "Run code with caution" or something to that effect, which warns people agaisnt running scripts from that person without checking through it for malicious stuff first.

I think scamming won't be done as often if we can make a "big enough deal" of it, as in, make the users reputation look really really bad, make sure everyone knows not to trust them, etc.

ATM it works like this: Scam, scammer gets banned, makes a new account, behaves nice, once everyone likes them they say who they really are and no one wants to ban them because its like theyre banning a friend rather than a scammer. And the way it works now, those people who reveal themselves know that the staff know who they are. Doesnt matter if we're "watching in secret" or whatever, if these people are fully open about it.

If we seriously impede the scammer's accounts, make it completely obvious that theyre scammers, regardless of if they come back with a new account or not (do it to their new accounts too when we find them, which is usually always), then the only real risk would be from returning scammers with low post counts - which usually arent trusted enough by the community for them to pull off any big scam.

I also suggest we write up some account safety rules, trading safety rules, and so on, because there are a lot of noobs who can get scammed easily and there will be even more soon.

tl;dr - Change the non-working strategy of "watch the scammers make new accounts and make friends again even though they've proven themselves untrustworthy, and give them cups and accolades so they look like normal users again so people actually trust them mistakenly" to "make examples of the 5 or 6 actual scammers we currently have in our community as shown above, and have a hard-ass policy that humiliates the scammers and ruins their rep, so less people will be inclined to scam and so people know who the scammers are, and can trade and run scripts in more confidence, and to cut down on the risk that a so called 'former-scammer' will scam again with their new, shiny, good reputation account".

Also, if we can show that we catch the returning scammers, and that so far every scammer here has been caught (+their returning accounts), along with fucking over their rep, it will be an impediment to other people's want to scam. If you can just scam, come back, get cups more easier than actual new members, new friends, all that shit (which it currently is like), then no wonder people try to scam here, we're soft as melted ice cream.

Ok, I wonder how the hell did that guy get scammed by naike?

Has naike been on msn?

Why doesn't naike post?

Where is naike?

Much of this smells like shit to me.

~RM

I like The Claw's suggestion. Sitting around doing nothing but watching does nothing to anyone and shows that we don't enforce the rules. The way it is now is misleading and in the opposite direction we want to go.

~BraK

From: Sir R. M8gic1an
Ok, I wonder how the hell did that guy get scammed by naike?

Has naike been on msn?

Why doesn't naike post?

Where is naike?

Much of this smells like shit to me.

~RM

Nike has done it before, and YOU let it go.

@The Claw: I think that would work, but I think there should be some way for the person to lose the "scammer" status. I mean, take Frement for example. I never new him when he was MoB and I've talked to him A LOT, I've even trusted him with some accounts. He's an example of someone (IMO) that should be known as a trusted member.

Well I think we should do a system like mentioned a page or two ago.

Have like a probation board. Make a form like the Srl members application but make it viewable only to the banned usergroups. After a minimum 3-6 months of staying off the forums (if perm ban) they may submit a probation request. We then do what the claw suggested and slap them with bandishing cups. This will hopefully reduce new accounts being made, the reputaion will stick with the old name, still allow us to track them and also give those who really do change a second chnace.

What do you think?

The problem is that if we're going to publicly mark people who return from bans, they will make sure we do not find them. They start over because they want a clean reputation. If we publicly mark them, they'll just start over again with a proxy (making it harder for us to find them).

We wont let them become member that easily, though. Which makes it hard for them to gain trust and get access to the black market. In other words, I don't think we need to handle it very differently.

Frement - Mage of Begu
Sex - Da 0wner
Dervish - Aeon_C
manfromczech - Iroki
i luffs yew - ian.
Dynamite - The Man
Train - Timer

who else?

From: nielsie95
The problem is that if we're going to publicly mark people who return from bans, they will make sure we do not find them. They start over because they want a clean reputation. If we publicly mark them, they'll just start over again with a proxy (making it harder for us to find them).

We wont let them become member that easily, though. Which makes it hard for them to gain trust and get access to the black market. In other words, I don't think we need to handle it very differently.

+1

Have any returning people under watch committed further crimes so far?

possibility of a cup that only ssrl+ can see stating previously banned and name?

From: Brain
possibility of a cup that only ssrl+ can see stating previously banned and name?

Newcomer cup pretty much points them out and LS just posted a list. ;)

If people weren't so fixed on the meaning of cups you'd realize that newcomer actually makes perfect sense.

People who return from bans will always stand out as scripters. Staff can also post user notes, not sure if SSRL can see them tho

~RM

Minor gravedig here, but a view opinions/ideas to share.

- As WT-Fakawi has stated, it's impossible to completely prevent people from returning from bans, so we allow them to stay as jnr members once everyone has found out about them. Fair enough. What about people who are completely unaware that these may not be trustworthy people? Until recently, I didn't know Sex was Da 0wner, and I'm not on the best of terms with him since his betrayal… Anyway, I think that there should be some kind of way of showing how they're an untrustworthy user, similar to the banned black market cup, something that allows all users to see that they are a threat (and they always will be, it's like having a criminal record).

- In additional, or instead of the above, changing their name back to their original would allow those effected, or present at the time of the offence, to know exactly who they are, and thus be cautious of them. Obviously this doesn't cater for users who are unaware of this user committing any malicious acts, so combining it with the previous could be beneficial.

- If there was a way in which we could see which users are a threat, some form of sticky in a public area, then everyone would be able to see who was a threat. Similar to the banned user section, except for users who aren't banned. This does mean that the user doesn't have to carry around a sort of "tag" which flaunts how dangerous they are (not that they deserve such benefits…).

- Ban users when we find out who they really are, show them we aren't soft.