SRL Archive - Discussions and Debates

CStrike


Bad Boy JH

2010-12-11 22:17:19

From: Cstrike
Hi Bay Boy JH and Shuttleu,

My time for SRL is over, and reflection as well. My advice is don't bother applying, I was told by admins of SRL and other reflection developers that my skills are non-existant and I shouldn't have Reflection developer status.

Therefore, I'm renouncing my developer status anyways and leaving. My advice to you guys is if you want to be a ref developer, you will need to basically know how to make your own updater, which takes ~a year of constantly learning java.
The community for me is pretty much dead now, I'm quite sad. I'll be heading over to tribot.

Decided to let you know this since you'll probably never see me again, and the apps on the boards for both of you guys (yes Shuttleu there is an app that I made for you as well, even though you don't know it) probably won't go through, too many no votes.

Goodbye, good luck. I wish you guys the best if we don't meet again.


I recieved this message from Cstike in the past 2 days, when I wasn't able to get to a computer. Now, if he IS being told that he shouldn't have Reflection developer status because he doesn't have his own updater, then I am thinking of leaving with him. He is a top scripter, far exceding most other SRL members and his development in randoms and other areas of reflection is impressive.
You have lost a brilliant developer because he doesn't want to spend a YEAR learning to create something that pryro already has.

The admins and other Reflection devs, if IS the case, then you are a bunch of F***ing morons.

MylesMadness

2010-12-11 22:26:45

A suitable 666 post…

3Garrett3

2010-12-11 22:32:36

From: Bad Boy JH
The admins and other Reflection devs, if IS the case, then you are a bunch of F***ing morons.


If this is the case, then yah, the ref devs really fucked up. I don't see how they could say that when he was the only one really contributing to reflection that was public about it.

If the other devs were actually contributing maybe you need to actually make it look like you care. The reflection section is fucking dead, so I don't see why you should be telling him that he's not doing a good job. CStrike is a good guy..

MylesMadness

2010-12-11 22:41:10

From: 3Garrett3
If this is the case, then yah, the ref devs really fucked up. I don't see how they could say that when he was the only one really contributing to reflection that was public about it.

If the other devs were actually contributing maybe you need to actually make it look like you care. The reflection section is fucking dead, so I don't see why you should be telling him that he's not doing a good job. CStrike is a good guy..
Now before we lose our hook updater, pyroryan has been pulling his weight for sure.

3Garrett3

2010-12-11 22:44:21

From: MylesMadness
Now before we lose our hook updater, pyroryan has been pulling his weight for sure.


He doesn't signify the reflection devs. I kinda wanna know if this is true or just CStrike overreacting to something.

Pyroryan is doing a lot, but he still shouldn't be saying that Cstrike sucks at scripting (paraphrasing the quote from CStrike) (also not saying that pyroryan is chirping him, just saying nobody should be allowed)

BenLand100

2010-12-11 22:57:07

Cstrike is just butthurt because I told him he didn't have any idea what he was doing when he kept asking me stupid questions. And yes, I don't think he should have reflection dev status if he can't even tell me how reflection works or what hooks are, and that is exactly what I said to him.

E: as for updaters, he's making that up, basically. he told me he was leaving because real life was calling him, so i guess he will just keep on playing the pity card whenever he can. tribot… lol, thats real life, right?

E2: He doesn't actually develop randoms any, he just uses other people's code from other projects. He just happens to know java well enough to mooch.

lordsaturn

2010-12-11 22:59:42

Cstrike. quit crying. come back and do your job as a reflection developer. Who cares if you are learning? You are(were) still doing a good job as a member of the community.

Even if benland doesn't thin you should be a developer, what does it matter? you are one. so do your damn job

traveler

2010-12-11 23:14:03

i saw the conversation that happened in irc with ben and cstrike, and to be honest benland you were a jerk to him. Yes, he might have asked some stupid questions and over reacted to other things, but thats no reason to tell him he is incapable of doing anything.

Also, dont you learn from asking question? even if they are stupid ones?

Harry

2010-12-11 23:25:32

Hopefully he was just having a rough day and will come back. He is better at scripting than most people in SRL Members for sure. You should be happy he is trying to learn more about how the internals of reflection work instead of telling him off. If you seriously think he is just mooching, then why don't you write some reflection anti-random code and commit it? Even if it's mooched (which I don't know nor really care), he is doing a better job with it than most people.

BenLand100

2010-12-11 23:31:23

From: Harry
Hopefully he was just having a rough day and will come back. He is better at scripting than most people in SRL Members for sure. You should be happy he is trying to learn more about how the internals of reflection work instead of telling him off. If you seriously think he is just mooching, then why don't you write some reflection anti-random code and commit it? Even if it's mooched (which I don't know nor really care), he is doing a better job with it than most people.

He expressed the he neither had the time nor the will to learn. Something a developer shouldn't do if they want to keep developing.

And the questions he asked made no sense, because he didn't understand how even the most basic parts of reflection. That's what happens when all one does is copy other people's code and use other peoples information, which is basically what he's been doing.

traveler

2010-12-11 23:36:38

From: BenLand100
That's what happens when all one does is copy other people's code and use other peoples information, which is basically what he's been doing.


He didnt copy code. All he got from others was ID numbers. Him and n1ke worked on the reflection randoms for a long time. So stop making stuff up and saying that he does not know how to code and what not. If you even looked at the reflection randoms code, you would know that they look nothing like the other bots code or any other person code for that matter.

BenLand100

2010-12-12 00:18:32

I worked with N1ke for a long time, and I know exactly how the "develop" for reflection, thanks. If he wanted to make a point, this was not the way to do it. I called him out for not understanding what he was doing, and he decided to leave, instead of trying to learn. I'm not going to defend myself for having the opinion that developers should know what they are doing.

He just wants your sympathy/pity for the "big bad BenLand100" being mean to him. Its kind of pathetic. I reiterate — he does not even know what hooks are. That is unacceptable.

E: Furthermore, I did not suggest that he leave, nor did I say I was going to remove his developer status, in fact I said I was not going to as people can attest to. It was his own decision to step down and leave, so consider that.

traveler

2010-12-12 00:57:31

I did consider him stepping down and leaving. I also think there was a better way of calling out that he did not know what he was doing. Telling someone that they are can't do anything and that they don't know anything was not the way to do it. He really wanted to learn stuff, but when people like you just rag on them and tell them they can't do anything, you really think that those people want to stay around?

BenLand100

2010-12-12 01:20:31

From: traveler
I did consider him stepping down and leaving. I also think there was a better way of calling out that he did not know what he was doing. Telling someone that they are can't do anything and that they don't know anything was not the way to do it. He really wanted to learn stuff, but when people like you just rag on them and tell them they can't do anything, you really think that those people want to stay around?


He asked me to add a method to SMART that calculated the absolute position of interfaces. I told him that made no sense. It does not make sense. He did not understand what he was talking about. He proceeded to act like I was just trying to slow him down by not adding methods to smart, and blaming me for not putting things into smart, which isn't the issue — smart has all the methods it needs to do this, he just didn't know how to (and obviously neither do I or I would have helped, the interface system entered into the client after I stopped heavy client development, i'm not familiar with it). He then acted like I didn't know what I was doing or talking about and wasn't doing what I should to develop SMART, berated me for "not releasing source code" (whatever he meant by that, i don't know), and started throwing a tantrum. The problem here is he was completely and utterly clueless about what he was doing. Instead of placing all (or any) blame on me, consider that he came to me with an attitude and smarted off at me to start with. I hurt his pride, and he started his pity party, enough said.

E: If someone comes to me with the attitude that something is my fault and that I'm not doing enough, and the issue turns out to be their own ineptitude, I will call them out on it. Regardless of things he has "contributed," he doesn't (as he admitted) have even the most basic knowledge of reflection, and shouldn't be a dev for that reason. But I'm not active here, so I don't care if he is or isn't. If he wants to overreact about it and step down, that's his prerogative. My judgment about his lack of skill really is inconsequential except for hurting his pride. And its a valid question as to whether or not you want someone that reacts that way to be a developer.

Boreas

2010-12-12 01:25:26

When the term 'reflection dev' is being used, is this referring to writing pascal WalkToTile type stuff in the reflection include, or writing java updater type stuff, or both? Do you really need to know how hooks work to write WalkPath etc?

BenLand100

2010-12-12 01:39:45

From: Boreas
When the term 'reflection dev' is being used, is this referring to writing pascal WalkToTile type stuff in the reflection include, or writing java updater type stuff, or both? Do you really need to know how hooks work to write WalkPath etc?

See, thats just the thing. Its almost like no one here even knows what a hook/path is. They have nothing inherently to do with updaters, an updater is just a way of finding them between client revisions, in fact the act of writing an updater and maintaining it is a monumental task, and no, I do not expect all devs to know how to do that, and I never said I did (Once again, this is his exaggeration to pull sympathy). Usually, there are one or two people on a project that know how the updater works, etc. But basic knowledge like knowing how the paths from the hooks are used to find things in the client, basic knowledge on how the client functions, etc are required. I highly doubt anyone could ever write the methods to interact with the client world without this knowledge (and in fact, MOST of srl's methods came out of rsbot, i've helped N1ke convert them). Cstrike didn't even know how fields/objects/arrays worked in SMART's interface, claiming i had no way to interact with arrays or some crazy nonsense like that. (this was after the point where he started making fun of me for "not helping" so idk what he was serious about or not). He did not understand that hooks start from a static reference then move through fields recursively to find data, or that the data you are finding exists within java objects in the client. THIS KNOWLEDGE is key to development. Anything someone wrote without this knowledge was hacked together guesswork — just poking at something until it did what you wanted it to. You all at SRL wouldn't admit SRL Members that didn't know how to work with arrays or variables; a reflection dev needs to AT LEAST know how reflection gets data from the client. Cstrike didn't know this, and that is why he was unable to write original (and useful) code. My understanding of his random development was that he used reflection methods created by other people and created functions that used data provided by them to solve the randoms. this is not developer work, this is scripter work. he was not maintaining the reflection methods at all, and does not understand how to, he was using data gained from reflection to solve randoms, that is all.

Bad Boy JH

2010-12-12 02:37:01

Look at the stuff I have written, including the Withdrawing function, I have no knowledge of Java, and I have no knowledge of how hooks really work. I have gathered interface data from RSBot, and the one time I was unable to solve an issue, I checked RSBot's code, they didn't have decent solution to the problem, the other day I searched through and did a in-depth analysis of how the interfaces changed, and came up with a solution.
The Idea that a developer needs to know that, is quite clearly wrong. Clever and innovative code is key to any developer, no matter the task.

mormonman

2010-12-12 03:01:14

From: Bad Boy JH
The Idea that a developer needs to know that, is quite clearly wrong. Clever and innovative code is key to any developer, no matter the task.


That is exactly what a developer needs to know. I'm on Benland's side. CStrike has been working on the randoms, but that doesn't deserve "developer" status in my opinion. Or maybe we need to re-define what a "developer" is…

kingarabian

2010-12-12 03:36:55

Guys we really don't need drama. We want everyone here to stay here. SRL really needs every single user right now…

Anyway Cstrike I think you over reacted a bit. Your a good person and its not always a bad thing to be told "that you suck" or w/e. Use those comments to make you an even better scripter. Also not to suck up, but if BenLand put you down then he is probably right, niggah knows what hes doing.

Bad Boy JH

2010-12-12 04:08:02

A developer is those who have the contribution rights, is an excelent scripter, and is responsible enough to be trusted with SVN commit rights. something which IMO Cstrike was

mormonman

2010-12-12 04:10:26

From: Bad Boy JH
A developer is those who have the contribution rights, is an excelent scripter, and is responsible enough to be trusted with SVN commit rights. something which IMO Cstrike was


Maybe for an SRL developer, but reflection and srl are extremely different when it comes to developing.

Bad Boy JH

2010-12-12 06:30:23

if its neccessary to know reflection, then I suppose my help solving the pinball random, and the lunchlady random, and my withdrawer, and the bit of gametab stuff I found, which was thought impossible, because the interfaces were always visible.

Shuttleu

2010-12-12 07:48:40

im sorry but i have no idea how the client works, no idea what hooks are or anything
but even though i dont know how anything works, i still managed to create a couple of things for reflection

what im saying is that someone doesnt need to know how the client or hooks work in order to develop reflection code

~shut

Wizzup?

2010-12-12 08:19:24

So ``admins of SRL'' is BenLand100, because I haven't really spoken to cstrike?

Sir R. M8gic1an

2010-12-12 08:56:36

Man what a drama snowball.

Ben, you could've been nicer by telling him straight away that you no longer know the RS Client like you used to. Cstrike is new to the community and does not know that you're a helpful person and I guess that when you told him it could be done if you knew how to he assumed you knew how to do it but just didn't feel like it.

Which is not true. If you got down to it you would end up figuring out how to do it (cus you're pro) but you don't know how to do it. (you don't know shit :p)


But yeh…. cstrike, you caused a lot of drama over one conversation.

When I got that PM directed at me and Coh3n saying that the IRC Admins said you weren't worthy as a dev, my first thought was 'what the hell do the IRC Ops have to do with reflection' ?

And so on. Lot's of drama

~RM

Markus

2010-12-12 10:14:36

Just regular drama queen stuff of some insecure guy. If he had some balls he wouldn't care.
Oh and SMART does work with arrays just fine? Last time I did something on reflection (which was when I wrote the first NPC stuff) it worked.

Edit: disregard that, that wasn't meant to be posted here.

BenLand100

2010-12-12 12:16:07

From: Shuttleu
im sorry but i have no idea how the client works, no idea what hooks are or anything
but even though i dont know how anything works, i still managed to create a couple of things for reflection

what im saying is that someone doesnt need to know how the client or hooks work in order to develop reflection code

~shut


You can write code that uses existing reflection methods. This is akin to saying that you don't need to know how bitmaps work because someone already made bitmaps and made a withdraw('itemname') function from the bank, and you claim that by using those functions you are a 'bitmap developer'. Which is just silly. If you don't understand how the basics work, you can't develop for reflection, just use existing code that does the hard part for you. SRL wouldn't want developers that don't understand bitmaps, dtms, and tpointarray stuff, and reflection shouldn't want developers that don't understand hooks. Its as simple as that. Granted it is possible NO ONE HERE that is a refection dev understands these things, but whatever. Thats why I didn't say I was going to demote him, because it wouldn't help matters.

From: Sir R. Magician

[…]
Ben, you could've been nicer by telling him straight away that you no longer know the RS Client like you used to. Cstrike is new to the community and does not know that you're a helpful person and I guess that when you told him it could be done if you knew how to he assumed you knew how to do it but just didn't feel like it.
[…]
Which is not true. If you got down to it you would end up figuring out how to do it (cus you're pro) but you don't know how to do it. (you don't know shit :p)
[…]
When I got that PM directed at me and Coh3n saying that the IRC Admins said you weren't worthy as a dev, my first thought was 'what the hell do the IRC Ops have to do with reflection' ?

The problem here, that you didn't address, is that he doesn't understand what he is doing well enough to realize his question made no sense, and couldn't comprehend what I was trying to tell him about the functionality being there to do what he wanted because he didn't know what functionality even existed. This is like a SRL Dev not being familiar with the various procedures for searching for colors on the screen, and asking Wizzup to add a method to simba that found where trees are on the screen. Its complete nonsense.

And I do know shit, thank you very much, but I am not familiar with the new interface structure. I have a general idea, at least. He doesn't even know what the term 'interface structure' could refer to, however. There is a stark difference in basic background knowledge here.

Finally, the idea of saying IRC Admins and SRL Admins is SIMPLY a ploy by Cstrike to stir up sympathy/pity/whatever, because it was *just* me. This sort of behavior is common when people realize they are completely wrong and think they can only save their reputation by going out with a bang.

From: Bad Boy JH
Look at the stuff I have written, including the Withdrawing function, I have no knowledge of Java, and I have no knowledge of how hooks really work. I have gathered interface data from RSBot, and the one time I was unable to solve an issue, I checked RSBot's code, they didn't have decent solution to the problem, the other day I searched through and did a in-depth analysis of how the interfaces changed, and came up with a solution.
The Idea that a developer needs to know that, is quite clearly wrong. Clever and innovative code is key to any developer, no matter the task.

You can't make clever and innovative code without SOME knowledge of how the code works. And clever/innovative code has not been the qualification to get you SRL Devship, but rather deep knowledge about how the methods work, programming ability, understanding of the basics, ability to form algorithms, the ability to act maturely, and INTEREST in what you do are defining points. Its fine if you don't understand, but Cstrike was very clear when he said he had no time or initiative to learn how hooks work. If you are a "developer" and say you don't want to learn the basics, well, I say you shouldn't be a developer.

n3ss3s

2010-12-12 12:43:48

It's driving me insane that I can't remember what was the problem with getting the parent coordinates of an interface, I might be just saying random shit but could've been something like that they don't have global vars or w/e for them in the class so u have to probe it around with bcel or something… Might get started on that again sometime..

traveler

2010-12-12 12:44:05

his question does make sense. he asked could you add the ability to find absolutex/y for interfaces. this means could you add a way to find the position of a given interface on the screen.

n3ss3s

2010-12-12 12:45:25

From: traveler
his question does make sense. he asked could you add the ability to find absolutex/y for interfaces. this means could you add a way to find the position of a given interface on the screen.


From what I understood Ben got bitched out for not doing it, followed by immediate butthurtness on cstrike's side.

BenLand100

2010-12-12 12:48:28

From: traveler
his question does make sense. he asked could you add the ability to find absolutex/y for interfaces. this means could you add a way to find the position of a given interface on the screen.

It does not make sense because that is what it means — did you not read my example? This is like asking Wizzup to add a method to Simba to find trees on the screen. I MEAN SURE if you want to be a literal asshole about it, then his question "makes sense" in the way that I know what he is asking, but it does NOT "make sense" in the way that it is a valid question to ask — this is not how reflection works. IF he knew this, he wouldn't have asked it, and surely wouldn't have made it out to be as if I was trying to purposely slow him down and treat me like I don't know what I am doing.

E: and then he said something about adding arrays to smart… ANY reflection developer should know how reflection works with arrays pure and simple. This was the ultimate reason I said he shouldn't be a dev.

n3ss3s

2010-12-12 12:56:06

From: BenLand100
It does not make sense because that is what it means — did you not read my example? This is like asking Wizzup to add a method to Simba to find trees on the screen. I MEAN SURE if you want to be a literal asshole about it, then his question "makes sense" in the way that I know what he is asking, but it does NOT "make sense" in the way that it is a valid question to ask — this is not how reflection works. IF he knew this, he wouldn't have asked it, and surely wouldn't have made it out to be as if I was trying to purposely slow him down and treat me like I don't know what I am doing.

E: and then he said something about adding arrays to smart… ANY reflection developer should know how reflection works with arrays pure and simple. This was the ultimate reason I said he shouldn't be a dev.



I don't know what does he mean by adding arrays to smart as being able to reflect array data has been there since day one pretty much…

traveler

2010-12-12 12:58:31

if that not how reflection works, then answer this. why do all the other reflection style bots do it?

mormonman

2010-12-12 13:25:51

From: traveler
if that not how reflection works, then answer this. why do all the other reflection style bots do it?


Which ones are you talking about?

n3ss3s

2010-12-12 13:28:21

if that not how reflection works, then answer this. why do all the other reflection style bots do it?


A major flaw in your argument is that they don't, injection bots do.

MylesMadness

2010-12-12 13:29:49

I think we're the only Reflection bot… Maybe nexus is, I don't remember nor been there in ages

BenLand100

2010-12-12 13:30:17

From: traveler
if that not how reflection works, then answer this. why do all the other reflection style bots do it?

Traveler, I am going to ask this as sensitively as possible — do you know what you are talking about or are you just arguing because you don't want me to be right / you to be wrong?

HERE IS A BASIC REFLECTION NEED-TO-KNOW TUTORIAL:
SMART provides an interface to access fields inside the RS client.

What do I mean by fields? A field is a slot in a java class (known as a static field) or object (known as a instance field) that is akin to a "variable" in pascal. Fields are components of OOP (Object Oriented Programming) in the way that they are associated with the life of objects. Objects are instances of classes. So, all objects have their own copy of their instance fields, and all Classes have their own static fields. You can think of Objects/Classes as pascal records. Fields in Java have a type, just as in pascal. The important types are the primitive types (int, long, float, double, boolean) and object types (Any descendant of the java.lang.Object class, arrays, and enums (l2objectorientedprogramming)). Note that arrays are considered objects, but they are special in that they have numbered ordered slots of the type they are of. Multidimensional arrays in java are just arrays of array types.

How does SMART access fields? This is done with a 'path' which is sometimes loosely called a 'hook' although the process of 'hooking' is the process the updater uses to find the field in question. All of SMART's reflection methods provide at least two arguments, the 'parent' and the 'path'. A parent can be an object reference, or zero. All basic hooks use zero as the parent, and this means that the path starts from the static domain. If the parent is nonzero (i.e. an object reference) then the path starts from inside that object's domain.

What is a 'path'? It is basically a roadmap to a field. The path is delimited by a period, and each element is the name of SOMETHING in the RS client (the meaning of that something can change periodically). When in the Static Domain, the first element of the path is a class name, i.e. the class to start in. The following element is the name of some static field in that class. Static Domain paths must always have these two elements. Any following elements in the path are applied sequentially in depth to the current object by accessing a field in that object. For instance the path "lol.hai.wat.win" will get the object out of class lol in the static field hai, then get the object from inside hai in the field wat, then get the value of the field win in the object that was in wat. The values of the fields must be objects if there are more elements remaining in the path, otherwise an error value will be returned because only objects have fields.

What about the non static domain? If the 'parent' is nonzero then the path starts in the current object. This was made so that the reflection methods can cache objects and access their values more quickly/efficiently. In this domain, all of the elements of the path are sequential-depth fields pulling a value out of the field of the current object. So if the parent was an object reference (It must be, otherwise it might crash SMART), and the path is "whatsup" then SMART will return the value of the field whatsup in the object. The path "whatsup.nuthin" will return the value of the field nuthin in the object in the field whatsup in the parent reference. You see?

If you're interested, this code is open source in my repository and is how SMART accomplishes this:
public Object findObjectFromPath(Object o, String path) throws Exception {
String[] parts = path.split("\\.");
Stack<String> stack = new Stack<String>();
Field field;
if (o == null) {
Class c = gameLoader.loadClass(parts[0]);
for (int i = parts.length - 1; i > 0; i--) {
stack.push(parts[i]);
}
field = c.getDeclaredField(stack.pop());
field.setAccessible(true);
o = field.get(null);
} else {
for (int i = parts.length - 1; i >= 0; i--) {
stack.push(parts[i]);
}
}
if (!stack.empty()) {
while (!stack.empty()) {
String theField = stack.pop();
Class theClass = o.getClass();
field = null;
while (field == null && theClass != Object.class) {
try {
field = theClass.getDeclaredField(theField);
} catch (Exception e) {
try {
theClass = theClass.getSuperclass();
} catch (Exception x) {
break;
}
}
}
field.setAccessible(true);
o = field.get(o);
}
}
return o;
}
Why so many different methods? Well, the path and parent procedure is the same for all methods (the one above), but since fields can be of many different type, I needed to include a method for each different possible return type. Use the right ones. I also included convenience methods related to arrays that allow you to automatically access their indexes and return the value at that point.

What should I watch out for? Objects. The damn things can leak memory if you don't free them. Any SMART method that returns an object reference REQUIRES that the reference be freed. There also appears to be a bug in the JVM that makes it unable to access many objects very quickly without crashing. This only seems to happen when objects are used VERY quickly, though, and has nothing to do with the number used over a long period of time. Also, invalid object references passed to SMART can cause the JVM to crash. Be sure, as well, to use the appropriate return type method for the value of the field/arrayindex you want to return.

…

So, traveler, to answer your question, this is not how all other reflection style bots do it. The same algorithms can be applied, but the ALGORITHMS for doing stuff are written in pascal and use the above interface to access data in the client. Cstrike did not understand this, and now, hopefully, you can see why adding a "method to find interfaces x/y coords" makes no sense. That should be written in pascal / whatever else uses SMART's interface.

E: I posted this in a thread in the reflection section as well. If you have questions/comments ask them there.

traveler

2010-12-12 13:42:35

i was aware that tribot did it, but i have just been told otherwise. sorry ill admit i was wrong. And i was not trying to pick a right to make you look wrong, i just thought that tribot and others did it a different way. I was misinformed.

Bobzilla69

2010-12-12 13:45:51

From: BenLand100

HERE IS A BASIC REFLECTION NEED-TO-KNOW TUTORIAL:
SMART provides an interface to access fields inside the RS client.
…
…
…

E: I posted this in a thread in the reflection section as well. If you have questions/comments ask them there.


That was one hell of a read, and i understood some of it, but not really i have only done basic programs in Java, C++ and C#

all i can say is well done for knowing all of this.

Gu3st...

2010-12-12 13:50:02

From: bobzilla69
all i can say is well done for knowing all of this.
That's just basics ;)

tarajunky

2010-12-12 13:50:56

Personally, I think Benland is out of line.

It sounds like cstrike was asking simple questions in IRC, and since Ben didn't know the answer he decided to humiliate cstrike instead of looking foolish himself.

Ben didn't make cstrike a Reflection Dev in the first place, so he really has no place to say whether cstrike should be one or not.

And as to having an intimate understanding of everything to do with Reflection, Ben admitted that SMART shouldn't even work, and he's not even sure why it does work as well as it does. Since Ben hasn't spent the last 2 years doggedly searching the the answer to that, does that mean he's not intellectually curious enough to be in charge of SMART anymore?

People need to stop with the attitude and respect others' contributions.

BenLand100

2010-12-12 14:12:37

From: tarajunky
Personally, I think Benland is out of line.

It sounds like cstrike was asking simple questions in IRC, and since Ben didn't know the answer he decided to humiliate cstrike instead of looking foolish himself.

Ben didn't make cstrike a Reflection Dev in the first place, so he really has no place to say whether cstrike should be one or not.

And as to having an intimate understanding of everything to do with Reflection, Ben admitted that SMART shouldn't even work, and he's not even sure why it does work as well as it does. Since Ben hasn't spent the last 2 years doggedly searching the the answer to that, does that mean he's not intellectually curious enough to be in charge of SMART anymore?

People need to stop with the attitude and respect others' contributions.

What the… Fuck?
1) His question made no sense, thanks for reading and understanding the situation. I knew exactly what he was asking and the answer was "don't do it that way, you don't know what you are talking about"
2) Yea, I didn't create reflection or anything. Furthermore, I have said over and over that I was NOT going to do anything about his dev-ship (I told him that too) because I am not heavily involved.
3) What in the world does that even mean? "Ben admitted that SMART shouldn't even work" what? "he's not even sure why it does work as well as it does" what? "Ben hasn't spent the last 2 years doggedly searching the the answer to that" what? "does that mean he's not intellectually curious enough to be in charge of SMART anymore?" what?

Are you high or trolling? Or do you just not like me so you think its cool to ignore all the facts and just assume that I'm at fault here? Really, I am in no danger of looking foolish for not knowing the answer to a question, that's just absurd. Furthermore the stuff he was asking to do is NOT simple at all, and I admitted I didn't know how to find the x/y coords of interfaces. The problem is he doesn't know enough about it to even ask a proper question, much less create his own reflection based code using the SMART interface, which is what he was trying to do. If you're going to make stuff up, at least make it believable.

Wizzup?

2010-12-12 14:15:27

This:

It sounds like cstrike was asking simple questions in IRC, and since Ben didn't know the answer he decided to humiliate cstrike instead of looking foolish himself.


Is not quite right. If we can assume BenLand100's story is correct, then it was cstrike who went out of line, and Ben just took the bait.

P1nky

2010-12-12 14:20:00

lmfao this is hilarious , sounded like a suicidal letter. Seriously, Man up kid , when i use to work for a restaurant my manager always would tell me : "Your a slow ass cook!" lmfao.. i didn't give a F… so wipe those tears man up fellah…

Cheerz <3 i sound harsh but its the truth, and don't be a bandwagon bad boy

mormonman

2010-12-12 14:21:10

I've asked Ben pretty of dumb questions and even bothered him on facebook and he never tried to humiliate me or anything even though(and he said so) he honestly doesn't know the client like he used to. I doubt that he started anything.

tarajunky

2010-12-12 15:37:17

How it Works

SMART is a conglomeration of a lot of things that probably should not work, but do, and have been exploited to their fullest potential. If you want a detailed explanation, you are out of luck, otherwise, you can get the general idea here. Check out the source in the repository if you think you're good enough to figure it out.


Not exactly the sort of description I would expect from an expert with intimate knowledge of how and why code they wrote works. And it also doesn't suggest any sort of "intellectual drive" to code SMART in the best way possible.

Again, I just think people need to respect others' contributions. There are probably coders out there that would look at SMART and call it garbage, and I would tell them the same thing I'm telling you.

BenLand100

2010-12-12 15:55:55

From: tarajunky
Not exactly the sort of description I would expect from an expert with intimate knowledge of how and why code they wrote works. And it also doesn't suggest any sort of "intellectual drive" to code SMART in the best way possible.

Again, I just think people need to respect others' contributions. There are probably coders out there that would look at SMART and call it garbage, and I would tell them the same thing I'm telling you.

Actually, it sounds more like an asshole who is too busy to bother explaining it to people he doesn't think will understand anyway (which is pretty accurate, imho). When I say "probably should not work" I mean I used aspects of the language that shouldn't be used that way, but I understood them well enough to use them to my advantage. I know exactly how and why it works, one can't just bullshit good code together. If you think its garbage, go ahead and make a better one, I'd love to see it. If you HONESTLY think I don't know how my own program works, you, sir, are deluded. SMART is coded in a the best way possible, evidenced by the (not so well known) fact that groups of people (and one group of SRL higher-ups) have attempted to clone it and failed miserably, previous to my releasing the source code. The source code is now public, and no one here has many any improvements to the core, so please just stop making stuff up. I did things with the JVM and JNI that most java developers would say is impossible or impracticable, including the core of transferring the image efficiently. If you want to poke at someone for not knowing what they are doing, you're barking up the wrong tree. You will not find tutorials for the things I did in SMART, you will not understand most of the things I did in SMART because a lot of it hinges on undocumented components of the java api that is NEVER used by sane developers and hence you would NOT know about unless you did original research into the deepest most hidden parts of java. SMART is one of the most original and genuine programs out there, so please, don't even try to tell me I don't know what I am doing. You will make yourself look very silly.

P.S. tarajunky, I don't want to shit on your parade or anything, but you do realize I was the first person to think of using java's reflection api in this way, right? And you do know I am the only person that has ever gotte a working, stable, noob friendly, and efficient client for use in SCAR/Simba minimizing, right? I'm not sure where this opinion of yours that I don't know what I am doing is coming from, but it is completely illogical.

Naike

2010-12-12 16:19:10

From: 3Garrett3
If this is the case, then yah, the ref devs really fucked up. I don't see how they could say that when he was the only one really contributing to reflection that was public about it.

If the other devs were actually contributing maybe you need to actually make it look like you care. The reflection section is fucking dead, so I don't see why you should be telling him that he's not doing a good job. CStrike is a good guy..


I hardly ever rage at people, but if you really think he was the only active one, then go fuck yourself. I did so much work for this to work, talked with so many people, tried my best. If you think CStrike was the only thing holding this boat up, then seriously, pull the trigger.

Don't even try to tell me nothing, when you don't have a clue about anything at all. And if you're going to complain, at least be in the position where your argument helps, if not, stay quite.

TomTuff

2010-12-12 16:24:16

Been might have been a little harsh about it, but he's right =\

[off topic] why is Shuttleu's name green? [/off topic]

NCDS

2010-12-12 16:25:19

This really should be closed if it's just going to be a big flame fest. Not one bit of good has come from this.

Ultimately, if Cstrike is gone, then he is gone. Nothing anyone post's here is going to change that.

Anything that actually needs to be discussed at this point can be done in the other forum/thread.

Naike

2010-12-12 16:35:56

Oh, btw.. Ben is right, We really have no idea what we're doing :)
But I still try to manage!

Gu3st...

2010-12-12 16:52:50

I lol'd at Benland's facebook status update ;)

BenLand100

2010-12-12 17:04:36

From: Zyt3x
I lol'd at Benland's facebook status update ;)

Hey, that was completely unrelated status update. Its a song, lol, and its about love.

Gu3st...

2010-12-12 17:06:24

From: BenLand100
Hey, that was completely unrelated status update. Its a song, lol, and its about love.
Hahaha it would have been funnier if it was about this ;)
EDIT: It was funnier when I thought it was about this*

tarajunky

2010-12-12 18:21:56

So you admit that SMART is undocumented, and uses techniques that are not common. SMART was also closed source for most of its existence, so that people here at SRL had to work around it rather than work with it. Adding a feature to SMART was never a possibility to Reflection Devs up until recently. And even those that have tried to go through the SMART code have a difficult time for the reasons mentioned before. Even someone with a decent knowledge of Java could struggle.

So if someone doesn't want to wade through all of that, according to you they can't be a Reflection Dev, and deserve to be insulted and humiliated. I think that's overkill.

I've got no beef with you Ben, but for all your coding skill, I still have to Enable/Disable SMART 3-5 times if I ever want to input keystrokes. Since you haven't tracked down this bug that's been there from the beginning, does that mean you lack intellectual curiosity, or can't develop SMART because you don't understand it?

Come on now.

BenLand100

2010-12-12 18:39:36

From: tarajunky
So you admit that SMART is undocumented, and uses techniques that are not common. SMART was also closed source for most of its existence, so that people here at SRL had to work around it rather than work with it. Adding a feature to SMART was never a possibility to Reflection Devs up until recently. And even those that have tried to go through the SMART code have a difficult time for the reasons mentioned before. Even someone with a decent knowledge of Java could struggle.

So if someone doesn't want to wade through all of that, according to you they can't be a Reflection Dev, and deserve to be insulted and humiliated. I think that's overkill.

I've got no beef with you Ben, but for all your coding skill, I still have to Enable/Disable SMART 3-5 times if I ever want to input keystrokes. Since you haven't tracked down this bug that's been there from the beginning, does that mean you lack intellectual curiosity, or can't develop SMART because you don't understand it?

Come on now.

Regardless of what spin you put on this, the premise of his question was wrong, so answering it would get us nowhere. There is no need to add something to smart — you don't seem to understand this either. In addition, you don't have to have any understanding of SMART to do reflection, I never said you had to. I said you need to understand how reflection works and how to use SMART's interface. STOP making things up, please. AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD know what you are talking about before you try to make a point with it. The Enable/Disable thing is an UNAVOIDABLE consequence of having SMART's input routines 100% safe and sane. True, it is an inconvenience, but I know exactly why it happens, and I also know why it sometimes hangs on keys, but 'fixing it' is not worth the losses that will be experienced on the undetectable front. It works that way for a reason, just because you don't understand it doesn't mean I do not. Just because you don't know why something is the way it is does not mean I do not know why it is that way. Unless you want to do something about it, please go away. If I am "can't develop SMART because I don't understand it" you surely have no standing for saying such a thing, because you neither have the drive, ability, nor interest to do anything productive.

Let me clue you in on something. Do you know what a logical fallacy is? Do you know the specifics of a "false dilemma"? Well, this is one: "Since you haven't tracked down this bug that's been there from the beginning, does that mean you lack intellectual curiosity, or can't develop SMART because you don't understand it?" IN FACT it doesn't mean either of those things. The reason I haven't "tracked down this bug" is because its not a bug, its the way the code works. It works that way for security. Sure, it is inconvenient, but thats tough. Perhaps if I had time (something I don't have much of) I could come up with a better solution. But it works, and it serves its purpose well. Now, I'm completely serious about this: stop telling me I don't understand how SMART works. That is undeservedly insulting. I have put hundreds of hours into this program that is quite widely used, and released the source code for ungrateful people to profit from, all without asking a single thing in return. The least you can do is not insult my intelligence by saying I do not understand the program I wrote. Reflection, after all, would not even exist without my contributions, and you would all have to have your computers locked down while autoing if I had not written SMART. So, please, just stop.

Edit: tarajunky, I appreciate your vendetta, but this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. you're floundering to find fault with me to justify your position. its time to stop. also, do you even have any real knowledge of reflection, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? because if you don't understand the nature of the problem, i don't see how you can contribute anything productive to the discussion.

Gu3st...

2010-12-12 18:57:00

I agree with NCDS…

Bad Boy JH

2010-12-12 21:00:28

On a more interesting note, why is Shuttleu a registered user?

BenLand100

2010-12-12 21:08:46

From: Bad Boy JH
On a more interesting note, why is Shuttleu a registered user?

If by interesting you mean off-topic, I have no idea. It has nothing to do with this.

Bad Boy JH

2010-12-12 21:22:14

I didn't say you did, any chance we could have an IP check on Cstrike? just out of interest, we have had a spade of hackers screwing with us.

3Garrett3

2010-12-12 21:46:35

From: Naike
I hardly ever rage at people, but if you really think he was the only active one, then go fuck yourself. I did so much work for this to work, talked with so many people, tried my best. If you think CStrike was the only thing holding this boat up, then seriously, pull the trigger.

Don't even try to tell me nothing, when you don't have a clue about anything at all. And if you're going to complain, at least be in the position where your argument helps, if not, stay quite.


I did post a very valid point:


If this is the case, then yah, the ref devs really fucked up. I don't see how they could say that when he was the only one really contributing to reflection that was public about it.

If the other devs were actually contributing maybe you need to actually make it look like you care. The reflection section is fucking dead, so I don't see why you should be telling him that he's not doing a good job. CStrike is a good guy..


You made it seem like I said that nobody is doing anything about reflection except CStrike. I said that he was the only one posting much about the development of reflection. I just looked through the Reflection section, and it's pretty much dead. So from the public point of view, the only development most people will notice is from those forums. When looking through at a glance, a large portion of the posts and threads are from CStrike, which is why my quote was:

he was the only one really contributing to reflection that was public about it.

I never said that the other devs weren't contributing. I said that they weren't making it public what they were adding and working on. If I had thought that the other devs were doing nothing, I would have said that they were rather than saying what I did.

Maybe I don't have a clue about how many things are being added. I'm not monitoring the reflection SVN every day, I have better things to do. Maybe if you wanted people to know that you're committing this and you're putting a lot of work into this, you could post about the new features that are being added to Reflection in the forums, where people will see. It might seem like an egotistical thing to do, but if you're gonna flip shit when I say that I haven't noticed the dev team posting much of their work other than CStrike then maybe you should get to work telling people about what you've done.

If you were pissed off at the second part of the quote, allow me to explain it again. If you are doing work, make it look like it. Like I said, the reflection section in the forums is generally dead except for the "Help" section, which seems to be used a little bit at least. There are something like 4 threads that have been posted in, in the last 4 days, just from a quick scan. This leads me to say that you should either realize that from a public point of view it looks like not much is happening from the reflection dev team, and suck it up when someone mentions this, or actually do something about it and tell us what you're doing, so that when someone doesn't know that you're doing much, you can say they should look at the reflection forum and not look like an idiot.

And next time you tell me to fuck myself, have a legit reason. Don't take my quote completely out of context to flame me based on something that wasn't said.

The Claw

2010-12-12 21:54:41

Hey guys I just thought I'd -


Everyone take one, quick

n3ss3s

2010-12-12 23:38:17

From: The Claw
Hey guys I just thought I'd -


Everyone take one, quick


Have any 9000 mg ones?

Wanted

2010-12-13 00:19:05

If you ask someone a question about something that you don't know much or anything at all about and someone answers you with something like "that doesn't make sense" i.e. 'i don't get what you're asking' or "it can't be done" chances are you need to look more into what you said.

My bet is cstrike is mad because a couple of people may have made comments about him being inexperienced, though he believes he's put forth a valiant effort. So he feels unimportant or unappreciated. Well honestly cstrike I can't sympathize with you because people are always going to give other people 'criticism' /insults your entire life, whether they be out of line or not it's not because anyone is fundamentally incapable of achieving something, but rather more it takes time. I can't say how many of the people you see around you were at one point less talented than you and became big-time developers, but it isn't the type of thing that they just picked up in a few months. Most of the time people like that receive mountains of negativity and years of hard work before they get somewhere.

People are always going to give you a hard time, but the perspective you look at it can choose to use it to your advantage or greatly damage the effort you've put forth so far. Deciding to announce to everyone that you are going to leave and denounce yourself is never a way to help yourself.

Quite honestly, if someone says you shouldn't be where you are then you work to prove them wrong.

Sure Ben can be difficult, but that isn't a reason to do the things you did.

P1nky

2010-12-13 00:25:25

[offtopic] i love how this is like 1 of the only thread that has like literally 3+ visits everytime i visit, reminds me of the old days <3 [/offtopic]

The Claw

2010-12-13 06:24:53

Kinda sad when the most discussion we have here is an arguement :p

1. Post stuff thats not inflammatory
2. Someone else posts stuff
3. ????
4. Everyones happy

Sorry n3ss3s, only got >9000 mg :(

Shuttleu

2010-12-13 06:48:49

From: n3ss3s
Have any 9000 mg ones?


i have a 9001mg if thats ok

~shut

Bad Boy JH

2010-12-13 06:58:21

Hey shut, how can you show up as a registered user, and still access these forums…its driving me nuts

Shuttleu

2010-12-13 06:58:57

From: Bad Boy JH
Hey shut, how can you show up as a registered user, and still access these forums…its driving me nuts


im special of course :D

~shut

Harry

2010-12-13 11:17:31

From: Shuttleu
im special of course :D

Verify your email.

Shuttleu

2010-12-13 11:55:36

From: Harry
Verify your email.


NO!
i don wanna

~shut

Sir R. M8gic1an

2010-12-13 17:45:46

I think this thread has gone on long enough. Enough drama, take a chill pill.