SRL Archive - Discussions & Debates

In the book The Hero: A Study in Tradition, Myth and Drama, Lord Raglan presents the stories of various heroes which have risen and fallen in popularity throughout the ages. He analyses these legends for similarities, and lists the 22 most common characteristics that they share. His list is as follows.

1. The hero's mother is a royal virgin;
2. His father is a king, and
3. Often a near relative of his mother, but
4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grandfather, to kill him, but
7. He is spirited away, and
8. Reared by foster parents in a far country.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. On reaching manhood he returns to go to his future kingdom.
11. After a victory over the king, and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor, and
13. Becomes king.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully, and
15. Prescribes laws, but
16. Later loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which
18. He meets a mysterious death,
19. Often at the top of a hill.
20. His children, if any, do not succeed him.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22. He has one or more holy sepulchers.

Some of the characters to which Raglan applies these attributes are: Oedipus (21), Theseus (20), Romulus (18), Heracles (17), Perseus (18), Bellerophon (16), Pelops (13), Asclepios (12), Dionysos (19), Apollo (11), Zeus (15), Joseph (12), Moses (20), Elijah (9), Watu Gunung (18), Nyikang (14), Siegfried (11), Llew Llewgyffes (17), King Aurthur (19), and Robin Hood (13). The story of Jesus of Nazareth fits into the hero pattern in the following way.

Jesus is born from the virgin Mary (1), and is the son of Joseph, a descendant of King David (2). It is reported that Jesus was not actually Joseph's son, however, and that he was the son of God [who is also referred to as a king] (2&5) who impregnated Mary via the power of the holy ghost (4). When he is born, King Herod attempts to kill him (6), but he is spirited away to the land of Egypt (7) where his mother and foster father Joseph raise him until it is safe to return (8). The gospels relate very little information about his childhood (9), but he returns to Israel (10) and becomes a preacher who prescribes moral teachings to his followers (15). He goes to Jerusalem during the passover, and is initially greeted warmly by the people, but later loses favor with them (16), and is taken out of the city to stand trial before Pilate (17). He sentenced to crucifixion, and is killed (18&19). He is raised from the dead (21), but has a holy sepulcher in Jerusalem (22). He is not reported as having any children (20). It is believed that when he returns, he will defeat the devil, who is often portrait as a dragon (11), and will become the king who reins uneventfully for 1,000 years (13&14).

Other then numbers 3 and 12, Jesus scored 20/22 of the points of the mythic hero archetype. With so many traits of his being shared with mythical heroes who nobody claims existed anymore, why should we believe that Jesus existed at all?

This is silly and nothing new. Of course the story of the Bible is extremely similar to past stories. And by the way, these are all Greek tragedies. Just a little writing style you may want to know in case you argue to anyone about religion.

Some of the dates are even exactly the same as Ancient Egyptian stories, along with many Greek mythologies. Yet humans say Ancient Egyptian stories are simply stories, and Greek mythology is simply mythology, while all religious texts are supernatural, spiritually correct, and valid.

Most religions today came from paganism, or at least parts.

But still, there is no point in arguing religion. Why do it? To make one's life worthless? Then you're a horrible person. If they believe that their life is better of, let them be better off. Whatever makes them feel like life is worth living, let them be.

Also, you are no different. You feel strongly towards atheism and that religions are flawed, yet they feel strongly towards theism and that atheism is flawed.

It's fine to debate religion, if you've a purpose. But, I see no purpose here.

This isn't a theism vs. atheism debate thread; it's a thread to debate the historicity of Jesus. Being irreligious doesn't "make one's life worthless," rather is is liberating, freeing one up to pursue genuine learning and happiness. If somebody doesn't want to know the truth, I'm not going to force it on them, but I do want it to be presented to everybody so that they can make an informed decision regarding their beliefs.

I'm an atheist. Religion is silly. But if you're only talking about the Christian Jesus, why? Why specifically target that?

And it's not like nobody knows about this information.. It's just that most religious people can simply deem things like this a test or an obstacle to test their faith, or that Jesus/God (could be either) made things like this similar to teach people the story of Jesus Christ in different ways to try to spread his love or whatever.

I believe that religion is nihilistic. I think nihilism is terrible.

Information does not need to be correct for it to be right. There is no truth; there are only many truths. You seem to have your priorities a little out of place, unless this is for school or something, in which case I'd love to present counter arguments and debate with you. :)

Its a shame pwnaz0r doesn't hang around here anymore.

pwnaz0r taught me a lot of scripting stuff. :<