SRL Archive - Senior News and General

This is a topic of discussion that came up on the ss23 thread. As that thread has gone back 'on topic', I thought I'd give it a clean fresh start.

I'm not forcing this on anyone, this is just an idea of why our hierarchy works.

Admins > Mods > SSRL
- This is a fact; We usually consider more strongly the higher ranked's opinion
(see ss23 thread as to reasons why)

And so Dan Cardin was arguing that all opinions should be weighted the same, regardless of rank. But there's a very easy way to make your opinions weigh more.

Go up the ranks. That simple; The step from SSRL -> Mods is pretty much just being able to see a bigger picture, and doing something about it - be it pointing out possible issues, suggesting solutions, or even just noticing things that could be improved and how.

The difference in "job" between SSRL and Mods is more or less this:
SSRL keeps everything running (cups being polled, members being brought in, immediate issues being dealt with) while Mods' is developing the community further.


If you start looking at the bigger picture then you will be more "productive" and therefore the staff is more likely to see you as a potential mod, which means that whether we agree with you or not we will still consider your opinion more carefully.

If you end up being right, all the better for everyone. If someone had a better solution or you worked a solution out with people we will still notice that you were the 'spark' that set off the solving or development of something.

Eventually, you'd make it up the ranks, which would mean you have a stronger say that you can take for granted.

So the more you look at the bigger picture, the more attention will be payed to you, on staff/community related issues.

As for the gap from Mods -> Admin I think that'll be a very personal one for everyone. For me it just happened when I needed it to continue 'developing' the community (judging JM #1, MSI, ..)



So this is my idea of why the hierarchy works well for our community. Help develop the community and you will have a bigger say on what happens.

This idea can of course have some flaws, but I don't see any immediate ones. :)

~RM

Yes, going up the ranks is oh so simple. My point is that what is the difference between a mod and I? They have been elected to be a mod. What is it that keeps most of the SSRL members from becoming a mod? My general answer would be time and timing. The amount of time that you've been in SSRL and the time about which you are there.

If I made two accounts a little while before the other and the both progressed to SSRL rank. They're both being controlled by me and therefor have the same-ish personality and largeness of picture (referring to bigger picture). Who is it that you're going to elect to modship? I would say that, in general,you would elect the first one and only the first one. The first one because he's been there longer and you've had a longer time to get to know this person. And not both because why elect an excess of mods that you don't need?

From this situation i take a couple of things. Both of the accounts are the same person. Why then, should the second account be taken less seriously or with less regard than the first? A mod is simply someone who was elected by the other mods/admins (i assume from all the other ranks) who were elected by the admins before them, who in turn were probably elected by Wizzup or the people were here originally. Who is Wizzup? he is a 20 year old (afaik) person in college. Ok. So that automatically makes him more apt to make decisions or have opinions that ought to be more highly regarded? He (or any other) could be a stupid twit (disregarding the assumption that staff wouldn't elect such a person), but because he's a mod his opinion is more valued.

As for largeness of view, how might a SSRL member show how well they can see the "big picture" if in fact they don't the "big picture". In my opinion, having more information on the forums because of being a mod+ does not give you a sense of the "big picture" its being able to see the effects that such information and other things might have on the community that i think is what matters. Just because you are a mod does not give it to you and just because you aren't one doesn't mean you don't have it.

Really the overall point i guess i mean is that you have no idea what anyone is actually like because you are seeing how they act on these forums. Because someone is helpful or good at scripting or is a good leader doesn't make them a good admin or mod nor does it mean that they are better in any way than someone else who is less fortunate and is not a mod. This is very similar to the thoughts i expressed (at least the first sentence in this paragraph) in the SSRL application of someone relatively recently (I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be saying names.).

I have to agree on Dan Cardin's argument. From what I get from it (and personal experiences/insight), because Mods/Admins/ higher ranking staff have more information on this 'big picture' they therefore have a better idea how to manage it no? Otherwise a very capable person that just registered could theoretically know how to manage the forum with all this information. So its more or less a paradox if you think about it enough.

The only thing that comes into play is seniority - who was here first, longest, most active (as Dan Cardin explained).

From: Dan Cardin
Really the overall point i guess i mean is that you have no idea what anyone is actually like because you are seeing how they act on these forums. Because someone is helpful or good at scripting or is a good leader doesn't make them a good admin or mod nor does it mean that they are better in any way than someone else who is less fortunate and is not a mod. This is very similar to the thoughts i expressed (at least the first sentence in this paragraph) in the SSRL application of someone relatively recently (I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be saying names.).

+1.

Longevity is important but only to a certain extent. This is because one must prove themselves over a period of time. Everyone has mature posts, and may even maintain them for months. However, a lot of people slip up when a situation arises. I'd say when someone makes a leap into the next "interval" of the hierarchy, the timer resets so-to-speak. They must prove that they can continue to uphold the respect that the community has given them with such a rank.

I think you guys are looking at longevity in the wrong light.


Also, I read the other thread after posting here. I was unaware of said predicament and my post seems a little off-track now that I'm aware of this big argument.

Hahaha, this made me laugh.

What do you guys think exists in mods+ ? A "Big Picture Thread" ??

We do not see the bigger picture because we are staff, We are staff because we see the big picture.

Big picture first, staff second. Otherwise how would anyone ever be promoted to mod?

Dan Cardin, your hypothetical case…
Markus has been around SRL much longer than I have. He was SSRL wayyyy before me. I still became mod first.

And Dan, I'm not sure if you know what you're talking about.
A good leader is someone who can see the big picture, has vision and has a lot of knowledge on the environment at hand. (This is what you learn in business & leadership seminars).

An admin is not a leader, but a leader will most likely be an admin.

You have your thoughts wrong. Its not admin first, leader later:

1. Leader
2. As a leader you aim to learn -> SRL Members
3. As a leader you'll think thngs through well (&etc) -> SSRL
4. As a leader you'll have a vision for the future, and do something about it -> Mods
5. As a leader you are completely committed to your cause -> Admin

——
Also, it is not a question of longevity. I went through the ranks somewhat fast.. but I remember the claw and nielsie going much faster!

—
As I've said before, you're staff because you see the big picture, you don't see the big picture because you are staff. We have no 'special' information in our forums. The 'special' information on there is what we create. Do you think the current concept of MSI was just something that was laying around on some "Big Picture" thread in staff's forums?

So how can an SSRL member show he sees the big picture? By seeing it.
How will you see it? By trying harder.
And right now you're arguing too hard to see anything beyond your nose.


Finally, whoever Fawki and Wizzup are, don't be an idiot. These forums have been here for nearly 4 years. That's longer than most companies survive. Whoever they might be, they are not that random and have made SRL prosper for long.

Also, remember that age and experience gives you a lot of knowledge. Fawki is 40+, as he was when he started these forums (maybe very late thirties, no offense :p) and you can definitely see he is someone who is older and has a much bigger picture than most of us. He then taught a lot of people through his actions. And we've survived.

Not so random.

~RM

And I'll repeat one last time:
We do not see the bigger picture because we are staff, we are staff because we see the bigger picture.

To longevity…

If someone has just joined the forums and appears very mature, wise, polite and clever in every way, he might still be just acting to gain some possible "special treats". However, it is very unlikely that someone who's shown that kind of personality for a long time, is faking it for these special things, because he would then know after the long time he has waited that there will be no treats. The cake is a lie. The longer the person has been on the forums, the more we can trust that he is what he says he is. That's why we should elect from 2 "identical" applicants the one who's been around longer. Nore: purely hypothetical, there are never 2 identical applicants.

I think if someone hasn't what it takes to be a good moderator, he most likely never won't. After all, moderator is the person who keeps the discussion and topics clean on the forums, which requires natural maturity, empathy, and understanding of things.

If someone is to go up the ranks, he eventually will. SRL is not so big community that talents and potential future mods/admins wouldn't be seen.

I think SRL hierarchy works great mainly because you don't get any special cakes at upper ranks. In some other communities (sythe) you can buy your rank and get lots of bonuses and things, which makes the rank system irrelevant.

From: Wizzup?
People with a higher rank usually see the bigger picture, as they also have more information.

My point was to say that just because you are a mod, doesn't mean your ability to see the bigger picture is greater than that of someone who is not a mod.

Markus has been around SRL much longer than I have. He was SSRL wayyyy before me. I still became mod first.

That's not really applicable. You aren't the same person. You make very different posts that make distinctions between the two of you. You weren't necessarily both able to show that you have mod qualities. My point there was to "prove" that in a contest between two people that have the same qualities and abilities that would make them mod, the one with more longevity will more likely win. And people with more longevity therefor will stand out more as people that you will want to elect.

One can appear to be able to see the "big picture" by the way you act. Feigning such things while actually being ignorant is doable, aswell as the staff may see in you want you not actually are and they might not see in you what you are. In other words, to the staff you may appear to be wise and mod-worthy, while you are in fact not and they might see you as someone not so wise and mod-worthy when you in fact are able to see the "big picture" and whatnot.

I also don't think it depends primarily one's ability. Were freddy to come back (an he displayed the proper properties of modship (this is an example, take it as such and not as a specific thing)) i doubt he would be allowed in because some of you have biases against him and wouldn't be able to see past that. (This was meant to fit into a larger argument that i forgot whist away…sorry if its a bit disjointed)

And right now you're arguing too hard to see anything beyond your nose.

That's all a matter of perspective. From my point of view you're the one that is doing the same thing. My view of the consequences of the actions taken on the forum could be very different from your own, but that makes neither necessarily incorrect.

As for Wizzup, I'm not saying he is doing a bad job, because even people randomly chosen for something can be good at it. Not that I said he was random. I said that he is just another person. One of many people that had they been in the same circumstances that lead to him being an admin could have been one and done just as well a job, if not better. So to judge one's opinion or amount of attention paid to you by your rank is silly.

Meh, if your main point is that people can feign an attitude, ..

As long as they feign it long enough, it is still to our benefit :rolleyes: And you can hardly feign 'smartness'. Feign maturity? Sure. But smartness?

And were freddy to come back, the most likely reason for him to not make it to mod is his inability to live without drama, which would make him unsuitable as mod, rather than any personal biases.

~RM

You're taking everything I'm saying literally. You'd have to be smart to consider trying to feign anything. Its more feigning that you care about the forums and are have mod-like qualities. But that wasn't the point of that part. I was trying to illustrate that just because one appears to be more mature than another doesn't mean that they are. Its all about appearances. That in turn is going towards my overall point that simply because someone isn't a mod doesn't mean that they oughtn't to be a mod or that they don't have more right to be one than someone who is. Which goes to show that everyone's opinions should be equal despite rank.

As for Freddy, as I said, the example was not meant for Freddy specifically but since he was someone that I knew some of the upper class had biases against. To make it more general, if a person had many mods+ that didn't like him for one reason or another, but he would make a really good mod, I wouldn't expect him to become one.

If SSRL members are prospective mods/devs, wouldn't make sense to afford them the same amount of consideration as yourselves?

From: Dan Cardin
You're taking everything I'm saying literally. You'd have to be smart to consider trying to feign anything. Its more feigning that you care about the forums and are have mod-like qualities. But that wasn't the point of that part.

Well..
1. For you to feign seeing the 'bigger picture' you'd actually have to see a bigger picture. Otherwise everyone will realize your arguments and thoughts are too small in scope.

2. If you can feign seeing a bigger picture then you CAN see a bigger picture, or your arguments will go unfounded, therefore 'killing' your feign.
(Do notice that we do give our arguments for our decisions / visions)

I was trying to illustrate that just because one appears to be more mature than another doesn't mean that they are. Its all about appearances. That in turn is going towards my overall point that simply because someone isn't a mod doesn't mean that they oughtn't to be a mod or that they don't have more right to be one than someone who is.

On these forums I am an admin, who runs certain projects and shows a certain personality. In real life I'm a stoner who goes to a great college and loves fucking and innapropriate jokes. But how many of those do you see posted by me?

It's an attitude. As long as the attitude is right, what do you care about who they 'really' are?
Of course that some attitudes show maturity or imaturity.

And maybe, if someone ought to be a mod, someone ought to show mod attitude (whatever that may be).

And it goes come back to your argument about time & timing. Staff needs to spend quite a bit of time on the forums; Someone who isn't active isn't really going to be made mod.

As for timing, a long time ago, quite a few people were made mods mostly due to there being a lack of mods.

Right now there is not a lack of staff, which is not to say that if someone showed this 'mod attitude' they wouldn't be made mods.

Which goes to show that everyone's opinions should be equal despite rank.

Then why are we discussing this in SSRL, rather than the public forums?

As for Freddy, as I said, the example was not meant for Freddy specifically but since he was someone that I knew some of the upper class had biases against. To make it more general, if a person had many mods+ that didn't like him for one reason or another, but he would make a really good mod, I wouldn't expect him to become one.

Then you'd ask yourself why doesn't the staff like person X ?

~RM

From: Rasta Magician
Then why are we discussing this in SSRL, rather than the public forums?

Because you made the thread here? :sasmokin:

In any case I'm so glad RM and Dan can argue back and forth for so long its amazing… This thread is really turning into a half-flame thread to be honest. Your just going back and forth with no end in sight.

The system has worked for 4 years, I think it would be a waste to try to change something now that has arbitrarily been working every since the internet started.

Every system has flaws. In the end, the staff is responsible for the forums, so it is only fair we get to say more. Yes, SSRL members are members with potential, but that doesn't make you staff (yet). If an SSRL poll does not have a clear outcome, don't you think it's better to be safe than sorry? If the new person goes on a rampage and bans everyone on his path, the staff is to blame. We were the ones to give him that power. We are also the ones to take that power away from him. Who would you be to ban him? He is an SSRL member too. You are right, just because we are staff doesn't necessarily mean we make better decisions, but we are the ones running this joint and we're doing that according to what we think is right.

Potential moderator does not make you a moderator, just like recruits in their final year at the police academy aren't police officers yet and police officers aren't detectives yet.

There has to be a difference. We do what we think is right and there is no way to guarantee that we do the right thing, but it has worked for over four years now..

ahhh RM. :(

nielsie95 - I know SSRL are not yet staff nor are they guaranteed staffship since its more often the SSRL members doing the voting and the staff doing the promotioning. But the topic at the moment isn't really on the case of ss23 in my eyes. Nor does it have to do with the decision you made. For me its much more the attitude that staff's opinions automatically matter more at least in the case of RM.

I just don't how that is justified. I might see it slightly more were we talking staff vs someone with no posts, but even then only slightly. If that person makes a good point then there isn't a reason for it to be so. Then when you get to SSRL, its the people that have been generally deemed more _____ and have in some way proven themselves and that the staff themselves have invited into the group more or less. After having elected someone to go into a higher rank, one that I would consider generally next in line to mod, why then would you still think less of their opinion? It's like saying during the time you were SSRL before you were elected to mod you were less capable of forming good opinions when in fact you haven't changed.

When you're saying it like that, you make it sound like we don't really care about your opinions, but we do! It's just that, when SSRL cannot come to a real conclusion, we'll take the problem to the people leading the forum. When there are 8 out of 14 SSRL members for a decision, there are still 6 against. Just because you are SSRL, we will take this seriously. If the staff can come to a conclusion, it is only logical we go with that.

I think the situation is being over-analyzed by both sides. The admins/mods felt that ss23 was getting in based on the fact he was close friends with a lot of the SSRL members. He didn't meet the requirements and was therefore denied. The application didn't say much about his skill.

If I remember correctly (which I do,) when we decided to setup an SSRL forum it was the step between SRL Member and Developer. I don't see any progress of ss23 towards developer status, therefore why grant him SSRL?


If an SRL Member application came through because a lot of the members were close to a junior member from outside the forum, what would happen? I have a good feeling the SSRL members would not be happy about that, and the "democratic vote" would be overruled.


2 cents.

From: nielsie95
When you're saying it like that, you make it sound like we don't really care about your opinions, but we do! It's just that, when SSRL cannot come to a real conclusion, we'll take the problem to the people leading the forum. When there are 8 out of 14 SSRL members for a decision, there are still 6 against. Just because you are SSRL, we will take this seriously. If the staff can come to a conclusion, it is only logical we go with that.

Indeed.

If I remember correctly (which I do,)

yes :)!

EDIT: still disagrees with RM's notion, but it is indeed only a notion. Silly of me to try to change someone's mind over such a small thing.

Guys, it's an online forum…

The whole SRL Members thing is the 'reason' it works. People come here leechers, sometimes completely stupid… then leave knowing at least fundamental programming and some direction in their life from what started as pixel hunger.

In fact, if you ask me. The "SRL Hierarchy" IS the problem.

But, like I said, who gives a shit? It's an online forum =/

For cheesehunk, check this out.
As for the rest… tl;dr

Narcle, you say it as if we are being 'aggressive' towards each other.. I didn't get that impression, we're just finding 'flaws' in each other's chain of thought. If anything I was finding this mutually beneficial. :)

I think nielsie really managed to make the most sense out of this whole thing.

And Dan, I care about your opinions as well :) That's why I bother to post here; Hopefully you didn't get the wrong impression ;)

~RM

I don't see any problem with it, tbh. I don't understand why the Hierarchy issue here is being discussed when everyone that can see this thread is apart of said Hierarchy.

We are SSRL, we have certain priviledges that SRL Members don't. If we didn't have this Hierarchy then there would be no structure to the forums. The Hierarchy has to start and end somewhere and people have to fill the ranks between. You can't give all SRL Member the power to infract people. The Hierarchy comes down to things like that, who can the people who originally started trust and so forth fill the ranks.

I agree 100% that the higher up you get the more 'say' your say should have. It is how the real world works my friends (for those of you who don't know). I can suggest some shit at work and honestly, if my boss doesn't like it then it doesn't go. But if they suggest something and I don't like it then it still goes. People that are higher than you just have more power, that is how it is. Be it here on the forums or in real life.

Just like I feel as being in SSRL, my opinion should be valued more highly to this forum, about things at this forum, compared to that of anyone below SSRL. And like the Developers opinion should be valued more with respect to the where the include should go and how it should work more than anyone that isn't a Developer. Everyone has there rank and for a reason.

For the people that can't face this fact and live with it, you are going to have some rough times ahead of you.

I honestly don't see the point in arguing this…

From: Rasta Magician
Narcle, you say it as if we are being 'aggressive' towards each other.. I didn't get that impression, we're just finding 'flaws' in each other's chain of thought. If anything I was finding this mutually beneficial. :)

I think nielsie really managed to make the most sense out of this whole thing.

And Dan, I care about your opinions as well :) That's why I bother to post here; Hopefully you didn't get the wrong impression ;)

~RM

agrees with your entire post :). Except for your caring about my opinion, because that's yours to decide not me :)!

@Hypersecret - But if a random guy walks up to an engineer and says "hey man, i found a fatal flaw in your design! The whole thing is going to break if you build it this way!". Do you think that the engineer should listen to him or blow him off because he's not an engineer and can't possibly be right?

I think that's blowing it out of proportion Dan :p

It's not like if anyone PMs us with a problem we won't respond :rolleyes:

Take that to discussions and debates, if you wish to ;)

~RM

Oh i just thought we were giving examples. Real life examples are something i don't generally see as fitting well to this situation. He left one and I left a rebuttal even though they both don't particularly fit too well.

I actually agreed with nielsie95 before, but i only see this as a company in that you're working towards producing a product. Most of the time the way its run is too forward and opinion open to be much like a company. Its only in instances such as these that the inconsistency (in my eyes) comes up; unless it happens more often and we just don't realize it.