SRL Archive - Discussions & Debates

More people have abandoned their faith because of the problem of suffering than for any other reason. It is certainly the greatest test of faith, the greatest temptation to unbelief. And it's not just an intellectual objection. We feel it. We live it.

The problem can be stated very simply. If God is so good, why Is his world so bad? If an all-good, all-wise, all-loving, all-just, and all-powerful God is running the show, why does he seem to be doing such a miserable job of it? Why do bad things happen to good people?



Let's analyse some of the points.

1. God gives us free will. Whenever something bad happened, we have only ourselves to blame. For example a homeless fit young man has only himself to blame if he dies from starvation. An vocal unbeliever has only himself to blame if he loses his job due to religious employers. An AIDS victim has only himself to blame if he or she sleeps around without protection.

Many people find this unsatisfactory because there are many types of suffering which are nothing to do with your own free will. Natural disasters are examples of this and often cause people to question. The earthquake in Haiti which involved a country with over 80% Christianity having 300000 deaths many of them defenceless, blameless children, actually lead to a rise in the sales of new atheist literature like The God Delusion and God Is Not Great.
Also, in the example of a child born with birth defects, why should this child suffer because of his mother smoking in pregnancy. The mother should be punished, not the child. When an unfaithful married man gives AIDS to his wife, why should she suffer due to her adulterer husband?
Another example is the extremely powerful 1775 earthquake in Lisbon which took place on a Sunday morning when most people were at church and lead to the near destruction of the entire town. It made many people across Europe, such as Voltaire, to question the existence of God. Some argue it indirectly helped the development of the European enlightenment.
Another example evolution, an inherently wasteful processes. If you think about it, for you to evolve those beautiful eyes or intelligent brain millions of people had to die because their features were just not good enough. Why did God make it like this instead of perhaps creating us in 6 days like the creationists say?



2. Who are we to say that God should have done this or that, we are merely servants of God and have no authority to question our master. If God wanted to send an earthquake to kill the children of Haiti then that is entirely up to him.

This was the answer God gave to Job. After he allowed the Devil to torment in various ways the man he bragged on for being his "good and faithful" servant, just to win a bet, Job asked him why. His response was that he was God and who was Job to question him? That answer might satisfy you, but I find it inadequate, it makes it clear that God is the ultimate cosmic dictator and you worship him because he will make you suffer if you don't.



Ask yourself this: why did god create the tapeworm? Why did he create the HIV virus? Why did he create that wasp that lays its eggs in the body of a live caterpillar?

Seriously: ask yourself those questions.

tapeworm = dunno.
HIV = U.S Government Created.
Wasp = prevent over population?

From: ZaSz
tapeworm = dunno.
HIV = U.S Government Created.
Wasp = prevent over population?

Well he is doing a terribly bad job at stopping over population in that case.

last time i asked a christian this their answer was that the devil created it, not god, or god is testing their faith.
don't even try, you cant change their minds :p

If your ultimate goal is to have a happy and prosperous life here on earth, then it doesn't make much sense. However, if there is an eternal perspective, then there is no such paradox.

There are some that believe in what has been described as the "prosperity gospel", where God rewards your faith and good works with immediate blessings of peace, health, prosperity, etc. Some have suggested that this "prosperity gospel" played a part in the economic collapse of 2008, because this belief encouraged many people to make risky investments that they believed God would make pay off to reward them.

However, the story of Job directly contradicts this belief. One of his 3 friends that come to console him actually confronts Job and alleges that Job must have done something bad in order to cause all the suffering he went through. At the end of the story, Job remains true and faithful and is made whole, while his friends are rebuked and commanded to repent for making these false allegations.

In the New Testament, Jesus himself also talks about this. He mentions the Tower of Siloam, which collapsed and killed 18 people. He argues that God didn't round up the 18 most evil people in Jerusalem and put them into the tower in order to have it collapse and punish them. So, sometimes good people are simply caught up in a bad event like a tower collapse or an earthquake with everyone else. He also commands his followers to be kind to everyone as God does by having the sun rise on the good and the wicked, and by sending rain to the crops of both the good and the wicked.

As for a rationale for allowing bad things to happen, there are several very good reasons for it. First would be that without experiencing pain we cannot fully appreciate pleasure. Without suffering we cannot fully appreciate peace. Without sickness we cannot fully appreciate health. Without evil there cannot be good, in a relativistic sense.

The second would be that if God protected every faithful person from sickness or suffering, or punished every wicked person with pain or death, it would destroy faith. One essential component of faith is NOT to have a perfect knowledge. Faith is meant to be a risky endeavor. It is meant to force us to step beyond our own limited understanding and trust in "unproveable" or "unknowable" truths.

From: Yakman
More people have abandoned their faith because of the problem of suffering than for any other reason. It is certainly the greatest test of faith, the greatest temptation to unbelief. And it's not just an intellectual objection. We feel it. We live it.

The problem can be stated very simply. If God is so good, why Is his world so bad? If an all-good, all-wise, all-loving, all-just, and all-powerful God is running the show, why does he seem to be doing such a miserable job of it? Why do bad things happen to good people?



Let's analyse some of the points.

1. God gives us free will. Whenever something bad happened, we have only ourselves to blame. For example a homeless fit young man has only himself to blame if he dies from starvation. An vocal unbeliever has only himself to blame if he loses his job due to religious employers. An AIDS victim has only himself to blame if he or she sleeps around without protection.

Many people find this unsatisfactory because there are many types of suffering which are nothing to do with your own free will. Natural disasters are examples of this and often cause people to question. The earthquake in Haiti which involved a country with over 80% Christianity having 300000 deaths many of them defenceless, blameless children, actually lead to a rise in the sales of new atheist literature like The God Delusion and God Is Not Great.
Also, in the example of a child born with birth defects, why should this child suffer because of his mother smoking in pregnancy. The mother should be punished, not the child. When an unfaithful married man gives AIDS to his wife, why should she suffer due to her adulterer husband?
Another example is the extremely powerful 1775 earthquake in Lisbon which took place on a Sunday morning when most people were at church and lead to the near destruction of the entire town. It made many people across Europe, such as Voltaire, to question the existence of God. Some argue it indirectly helped the development of the European enlightenment.
Another example evolution, an inherently wasteful processes. If you think about it, for you to evolve those beautiful eyes or intelligent brain millions of people had to die because their features were just not good enough. Why did God make it like this instead of perhaps creating us in 6 days like the creationists say?



2. Who are we to say that God should have done this or that, we are merely servants of God and have no authority to question our master. If God wanted to send an earthquake to kill the children of Haiti then that is entirely up to him.

This was the answer God gave to Job. After he allowed the Devil to torment in various ways the man he bragged on for being his "good and faithful" servant, just to win a bet, Job asked him why. His response was that he was God and who was Job to question him? That answer might satisfy you, but I find it inadequate, it makes it clear that God is the ultimate cosmic dictator and you worship him because he will make you suffer if you don't.



Ask yourself this: why did god create the tapeworm? Why did he create the HIV virus? Why did he create that wasp that lays its eggs in the body of a live caterpillar?

Seriously: ask yourself those questions.

1. Your looking at the old christian point of view about god and religion?

2. I think the Haiti quake was man made :).

From: Yakman
The problem can be stated very simply. If God is so good, why Is his world so bad? If an all-good, all-wise, all-loving, all-just, and all-powerful God is running the show, why does he seem to be doing such a miserable job of it? Why do bad things happen to good people?

Everyone is biased by their own perceptions of the world. The mentalities and whatnot of today are nothing like that of thousands of years ago. If God knows everything then his way of thinking things would be absolute. So firstly there's the problem that people assume that God has the same moral code as they do. Slavery was fine and dandy way back when, and now its seen as a horrible thing. God's stance would have stayed the same through all that time so one of the time periods has people that are wrong.

The second problem is people think of God as a person. God is much more of an idea than an actual being. I find it very hard to explain, but people hold onto the idea of an all powerful, all knowing being and by everyone in a group thinking of the same thing when they think "god" it manifests itself as a "real" thing. In reality its just the idea of that being existing that really makes god exist. Such is why God would be seen differently by everyone, god being everyone's own image of what the perfect being would be.

This is all not including that an all knowing being cannot exist while free will exists.

So anyways, assuming that the idea of a god did make sense, words such as lousy, miserable, bad are all relative because people look out for themselves. They think that if things aren't perfect for them, then God isn't doing his job. You can't make everyone happy while having them all exist in the same place. As well as what I said before, what's lousy, miserable, and bad in your eyes isn't necessarily what would be bad in the eyes of people before us and be bad in the "eyes" of god.

From: tarajunky
As for a rationale for allowing bad things to happen, there are several very good reasons for it. First would be that without experiencing pain we cannot fully appreciate pleasure. Without suffering we cannot fully appreciate peace. Without sickness we cannot fully appreciate health. Without evil there cannot be good, in a relativistic sense.

How is it that God in his infinite wisdom and power is unable to create a universe where pleasure doesn't exist without pain?

Either God is all-powerful, in which case he could easily make a universe with pleasure only. OR he is not all-powerful which explains suffering, but then why even call him God?

From: tarajunky

The second would be that if God protected every faithful person from sickness or suffering, or punished every wicked person with pain or death, it would destroy faith. One essential component of faith is NOT to have a perfect knowledge. Faith is meant to be a risky endeavor. It is meant to force us to step beyond our own limited understanding and trust in "unproveable" or "unknowable" truths.

Faith is believing things that have no evidence (often in the teeth of evidence), if you do that then you could believe anything. A casual stroll through a mental hospital clearly shows that faith means nothing.

Faith is a perfect defence against disproof. If an idea is held with faith it cannot be disproved.

Large amounts of faith is considered a virtue (in others…) by salesmen, politicians and con artists.
Consider when you meet a salesman, they remind you how good it feels to take things on faith with a smile and a firm handshake, if you get suspicious they act very hurt.

Don't get me wrong, everyone has a little bit of faith in the same way every machine has a little bit of friction. But engineers try to reduce friction as much as they can and we should try to reduce faith as much as possible and live our lives based on evidence and reason.
This system where faith backs itself up is unreasonable. You need faith to believe in God, then you need faith to believe that God wants you to have faith. Its very convenient, and circular logic.

Faith has never moved a single mountain (disagree? send me the map references) but it has destroyed billions of lives. Wars have been made possible by faith, or made worse by it. A man not afraid to die is willing to fight in a way no rational man can. The man of faith will leap over the top to death and glory, or dive his aircraft into a building with the utter certainty of his place in paradise. Faith is a powerful form of belief that will override other ideas, including self preservation, that is why it is so dangerous. Only those who want to spread their own beliefs call faith a virtue.

From: kingarabian
1. Your looking at the old christian point of view about god and religion?

2. I think the Haiti quake was man made :).

1. I don't think so, Muslims also believe that Allah is all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful. This thread applies equally to Muslims.

2. Lets for a moment assume it is true.
The same logic also applies to all natural disasters where undeserving people died. How about the 2004 Tsunami which killed about 150000 people? Many of those were children or innocent adults who really didn't deserve it, yet Allah killed them in the early morning while they were sleeping. How could He do that if He is meant to be all-loving?

Perhaps I could come up with an example closer to you. Why does God allow those murderous Jews in Isreal to kill innocent Palestinian children? Thousands of good Muslims have died very painful deaths since Isreal was founded, where was Allah in all this?

From: Dan Cardin
Everyone is biased by their own perceptions of the world. The mentalities and whatnot of today are nothing like that of thousands of years ago. If God knows everything then his way of thinking things would be absolute. So firstly there's the problem that people assume that God has the same moral code as they do. Slavery was fine and dandy way back when, and now its seen as a horrible thing. God's stance would have stayed the same through all that time so one of the time periods has people that are wrong.

The second problem is people think of God as a person. God is much more of an idea than an actual being. I find it very hard to explain, but people hold onto the idea of an all powerful, all knowing being and by everyone in a group thinking of the same thing when they think "god" it manifests itself as a "real" thing. In reality its just the idea of that being existing that really makes god exist. Such is why God would be seen differently by everyone, god being everyone's own image of what the perfect being would be.

This is all not including that an all knowing being cannot exist while free will exists.

So anyways, assuming that the idea of a god did make sense, words such as lousy, miserable, bad are all relative because people look out for themselves. They think that if things aren't perfect for them, then God isn't doing his job. You can't make everyone happy while having them all exist in the same place. As well as what I said before, what's lousy, miserable, and bad in your eyes isn't necessarily what would be bad in the eyes of people before us and be bad in the "eyes" of god.

Sorry I didn't understand this post no matter how hard I tried. Could you clarify?
All pain and pleasure is relative, so some people feel pain while others feel pleasure in the same situation and this makes it okay for God to allow bad things to happen. Is that right?

If you gave your child a cheeseburger to eat for every meal of every day, they would eventually grow tired of them, even if cheeseburgers were their favorite food. Variety is the spice of life.

Likewise, if you told your child that all they have to do is X, Y, and Z to have a perfectly happy life, chances are that they would rebel and try A, B, C instead.

I can't explain why God chose to give living things free agency, but he did, and it is a very important part of his plan for us. In the scriptures it says that it is for a wise purpose.

If there was only 1 option, agency wouldn't exist. It doesn't matter how "good" it is, there would be no other choice. I believe that life is about learning to choose the good things God has offered us. Just like a parent trying to raise children with agency, trying to force them to do one thing is usually not successful, and stunts their own individual growth. It is much better to teach them true principles, and allow them to choose a good life for themselves.

From: ZaSz
tapeworm = dunno.
HIV = U.S Government Created.
Wasp = prevent over population?

No.

From: kingarabian
1. Your looking at the old christian point of view about god and religion?

2. I think the Haiti quake was man made :).

1. If God is so perfect, why is there a new version of it? And you can't say that "things change over time," because that is illogical. A god would know that times would change and be prepared for it. I'd like to know what you think. :) (Not trying to be insulting, I'm just curious.)

2. Again, no. Stop with all your ridiculous, nonsensical bullshit.

From: i luffs yeww
No.



1. If God is so perfect, why is there a new version of it? And you can't say that "things change over time," because that is illogical. A god would know that times would change and be prepared for it. I'd like to know what you think. :) (Not trying to be insulting, I'm just curious.)

2. Again, no. Stop with all your ridiculous, nonsensical bullshit.

1. Christians and Muslims worship the same god.

2. Why say such a defiant no? Thats what I think. From the research I did it all adds up.

3. umadbro?

From: kingarabian
1. Christians and Muslims worship the same god.

2. Why say such a defiant no? Thats what I think. From the research I did it all adds up.

3. umadbro?

1. That has nothing to do with my question.

2. Because it doesn't make any fucking sense. Why the fuck would anyone spontaneously conclude the following: "u no wut guize!? we shud maek teh earth quack!!11!!1212!!1@1eleven!! o and we shud onlee maek 1 spuhsifik indeveluhpd kuntree b hurt! YEAH!!!!!!314%@!#%2356g" ? Does that honestly make sense to you? Jesus fuck that's ridiculous.

3. Nah, brah. I just like talking with specific points in my argument. It dun tickle mah fancy. :3

Can this debate also work for. "Why do good things happen to bad people?"

That'd be a different thread.

well, first off, "good" and "bad" are opinions that differ between people and circumstances.

also, who ever said that good things would happen to good people? if good things happen to us all the time, when would we learn? we learn from the bad experiences we face. we learn how to build sturdy buildings from earthquakes and how to build appropriate basements from tornadoes. Even though some people consider these things "bad" they in actuality further the human understanding and knowledge, which i would consider "good".

EDIT:

From: Yakman
How is it that God in his infinite wisdom and power is unable to create a universe where pleasure doesn't exist without pain?

1: God is able to do anything.
2: Why would God take out pain? I simply do not understand why people believe that pain is a bad thing. Sure it might suck while one goes through the pain, but people learn soooooo much from painful situations. Living in bliss is nice and pleasurable, but how does that further us as humans? Pain has furthered us far more than pleasure ever has.

From: x[Warrior]x3500
1: God is able to do anything.
2: Why would God take out pain? I simply do not understand why people believe that pain is a bad thing. Sure it might suck while one goes through the pain, but people learn soooooo much from painful situations. Living in bliss is nice and pleasurable, but how does that further us as humans? Pain has furthered us far more than pleasure ever has.

1. God doesn't exist.

2. Pain also lead to the Holocaust which nobody learned much from. It even began the start of another world war.

From: i luffs yeww
1. That has nothing to do with my question.

2. Because it doesn't make any fucking sense. Why the fuck would anyone spontaneously conclude the following: "u no wut guize!? we shud maek teh earth quack!!11!!1212!!1@1eleven!! o and we shud onlee maek 1 spuhsifik indeveluhpd kuntree b hurt! YEAH!!!!!!314%@!#%2356g" ? Does that honestly make sense to you? Jesus fuck that's ridiculous.

3. Nah, brah. I just like talking with specific points in my argument. It dun tickle mah fancy. :3

1. Well untill you learn more about my religion, then I will be willing to take you more seriously.

2. Learn politics.

3. ermk.

From: i luffs yeww
1. God doesn't exist.

2. Pain also lead to the Holocaust which nobody learned much from. It even began the start of another world war.

1. OMFG THAT DOESNT MAKE SENSE OMFG AMG AMG /123452!!@#@er#@!@$!@#!@#!#!#!#

From: kingarabian
1. Well untill you learn more about my religion, then I will be willing to take you more seriously.

2. Learn politics.

3. ermk.



1. OMFG THAT DOESNT MAKE SENSE OMFG AMG AMG /123452!!@#@er#@!@$!@#!@#!#!#!#

1. What religion are you again? One that has a deity? One that has a set of rules? Maybe those rules are even in a book? Or on a piece of stone? Are there any offspring of your god? Are there any rules on how to live and how to practice your religion? Are there any rules saying that other religions are wrong? Are there any rules regarding women, men, people of power, racism, sexism, love, war, hate, pain? Is there some sort of building where people whom believe in the same deity, the same set of rules, as you? Do you do some sort of religious activity in said building? Oh, and back to the offspring, is there some sort of resurrection, rebirth, or anything of that sort that happens to your deity's child? Is his birthday on a specific holiday? Maybe even in late December? Do people cherish his birth and death by giving to others? Oh, and most importantly, does it also resemble religious beliefs that were common in Egypt when a few pyramids were built?

2. Why do you think I don't know politics?

3. Isn't it fun? ^^

1. I don't see how not. I don't see how a deity could exist, but I can see how life is livable without a deity.

From: i luffs yeww
1. What religion are you again? One that has a deity? One that has a set of rules? Maybe those rules are even in a book? Or on a piece of stone? Are there any offspring of your god? Are there any rules on how to live and how to practice your religion? Are there any rules saying that other religions are wrong? Are there any rules regarding women, men, people of power, racism, sexism, love, war, hate, pain? Is there some sort of building where people whom believe in the same deity, the same set of rules, as you? Do you do some sort of religious activity in said building? Oh, and back to the offspring, is there some sort of resurrection, rebirth, or anything of that sort that happens to your deity's child? Is his birthday on a specific holiday? Maybe even in late December? Do people cherish his birth and death by giving to others? Oh, and most importantly, does it also resemble religious beliefs that were common in Egypt when a few pyramids were built?

2. Why do you think I don't know politics?

3. Isn't it fun? ^^

1. I don't see how not. I don't see how a deity could exist, but I can see how life is livable without a deity.

1. Yup. Learn the quran. Home of plenty of miracles. Learn the life of the Prophet Mohammad. Learn the life of his campanions. Read some hadeeths (aww shit you dont know what it means, google it). When you want to bash something, you must 1st know what it is. Islam isnt like any other religion my friend. :google::google::google::google:

2. Cause the reason I say its man made, is because its politial.

From: kingarabian
1. Yup. Learn the quran. Home of plenty of miracles. Learn the life of the Prophet Mohammad. Learn the life of his campanions. Read some hadeeths (aww shit you dont know what it means, google it). When you want to bash something, you must 1st know what it is. Islam isnt like any other religion my friend. :google::google::google::google:

2. Cause the reason I say its man made, is because its politial.

1. Hahahaha what? I just said all of those things which are true about every religion for a reason. You just agreed with me, and then contradicted yourself. GG noob.

2. It makes no political sense. Neither does it (and this is more important) make any geological sense.

From: i luffs yeww
1. Hahahaha what? I just said all of those things which are true about every religion for a reason. You just agreed with me, and then contradicted yourself. GG noob.

2. It makes no political sense. Neither does it (and this is more important) make any geological sense.

1. I said Islam is different? Different then every other religion?

2. k

Edit: My msn is [email]K.o.a.n.z.k.o.b.e.808@hotmail.com[/email] add me if you want to "debate" more.

From: i luffs yeww
1. What religion are you again? One that has a deity? One that has a set of rules? Maybe those rules are even in a book? Or on a piece of stone? Are there any offspring of your god? Are there any rules on how to live and how to practice your religion? Are there any rules saying that other religions are wrong? Are there any rules regarding women, men, people of power, racism, sexism, love, war, hate, pain? Is there some sort of building where people whom believe in the same deity, the same set of rules, as you? Do you do some sort of religious activity in said building? Oh, and back to the offspring, is there some sort of resurrection, rebirth, or anything of that sort that happens to your deity's child? Is his birthday on a specific holiday? Maybe even in late December? Do people cherish his birth and death by giving to others? Oh, and most importantly, does it also resemble religious beliefs that were common in Egypt when a few pyramids were built?

From: kingarabian
1. Yup. Learn the quran. Home of plenty of miracles. Learn the life of the Prophet Mohammad. Learn the life of his campanions. Read some hadeeths (aww shit you dont know what it means, google it). When you want to bash something, you must 1st know what it is. Islam isnt like any other religion my friend. :google::google::google::google:.

From: kingarabian
1. I said Islam is different? Different then every other religion?

Anyway.

From: i luffs yeww
Anyway.

I rest my case dawg. Islam aint like no other religion.

Do you not get it? I asked you a bunch of questions about your religion. You said they were true. Did you know that if I asked a Christian person those same questions, they'd still be truthful? And that goes for every other religion (excluding Buddhism, to some extent).

From: i luffs yeww
Do you not get it? I asked you a bunch of questions about your religion. You said they were true. Did you know that if I asked a Christian person those same questions, they'd still be truthful? And that goes for every other religion (excluding Buddhism, to some extent).

I asked you 1st, to explain my religion. Which you cant. Uneducated. You just go on this thread and firmly say there is no god. Thats why athiests get alot of negativity. Come in, start flaming religions, and say there is proof of micro evolution, so human beings came from evolution. Then you give me bad rep about my sig, whining its offensive.

Good job.

Dont YOU get it? Im asking YOU if you know anything about Islam. Which you obviously dont.

Well lemme get you started. The Quran was revealed to the prophet mohammad (pbh). Approx 1400 years ago,

It's a fact it has many miracles, and includes alot of things that science proved within the past 100 years.

http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

http://miraclesofthequran.com/historical_index.html

http://miraclesofthequran.com/predictions_index.html

http://miraclesofthequran.com/perfection_index.html

http://miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_index.html

Enlighten yourself.

From: kingarabian
If god didnt create us, and we came through evolution, then how come were all so different?

Thanks for pointing out why Evolution is indeed the answer. Because of evolution we are different.

Again, I'm saying that all religions are similar. Because they are. I don't see how you don't see that, but okay. Thanks for the links by the way. :3 I love reading about this stuff.

But for now, I'm going to be away. Thanks for talking. :)

From: Wizzup?
Thanks for pointing out why Evolution is indeed the answer. Because of evolution we are different.

No but were different then how the supposed monkeys are right? Arnt we all supposed to be the same because were all supposedly formed from the same genetics? Look at monkeys, look at fish?

Microevolution has been proven. Its even in the Quran. But evolution from where one major species goes on to create another, is a darwin theory, and will remain that way.

They say the big bang created all organisims. Yet the big bang theory was discovered in 1912. But it was in the Quran from nearly 1400 years ago.

@Luffs - anyttiime :).


Edit: Quran.

From: kingarabian
No but were different then how the supposed monkeys are right? Arnt we all supposed to be the same because were all supposedly formed from the same genetics? Look at monkeys, look at fish?

No… Read up on evolution. Richard Dawkins has written a few good books that explain evolution quite well.

From: kingarabian

Microevolution has been proven. Its even in the Quran. But evolution from where one major species goes on to create another, is a darwin theory, and will remain that way..

Microevolution is (as far as I can understand from the wiki page) just Evolution. Just slightly adjusted for specific cases…

So… The ``Darwin'' theory has been proven, it's even in the Quran? But it will always remain a ``Darwin'' theory.

The first single celled organisms which evolved in different places evolved differently, due to different conditions. It's not as if there was one type of life originally, there were probably millions. Of course they are going to evolve into different, seperate species.

From: Yakman
Sorry I didn't understand this post no matter how hard I tried. Could you clarify?
All pain and pleasure is relative, so some people feel pain while others feel pleasure in the same situation and this makes it okay for God to allow bad things to happen. Is that right?

Somewhat so. Except its more "this makes it okay for God to allow things to happen." If bad and good are relative, then what happens can't really be criticized without bias unless you don't want things to happen at all.

From: kingarabian
No but were different then how the supposed monkeys are right? Arnt we all supposed to be the same because were all supposedly formed from the same genetics? Look at monkeys, look at fish?

Actually, we're quite closely related to lemurs, which is quite interesting, in my opinion.

Anyway. Things evolve differently. I hope you'd know that, but I guess not. Maybe you could try looking into some proof of natural selection like vestigial structures. :) I think it's pretty cool. And you may not think at as any disproof of the Qur'an, which is fine, but I hope you'll see that that's no proof of a god. ;)

From: Yakman
How is it that God in his infinite wisdom and power is unable to create a universe where pleasure doesn't exist without pain?

how would we know what pleasure is without pain to compare it too


if everyone was happy all the time then we wouldnt call it pleasure it would jsut be normal

From: i luffs yeww
1. God doesn't exist.

2. Pain also lead to the Holocaust which nobody learned much from. It even began the start of another world war.

1: … what is your problem. the reason i said that "God can do anything" is because in the quote i had prior to that, it said that God can not. And that quote was in response to a belief that says God can do anything. so from the get-go, saying God can not do everything (in the quote) made no sense because it did not express the original idea that the quote was responding to. To debate, one should use the established beliefs of another to disprove themselves.
Now my problem with you is that you keep just randomly bantering about how "God doesnt exist", especially when this doesnt even pertain to the subject. There was no reason why that comment was thrown in there. The only reason i could think of is that your narrow mind got upset that i corrected yakman and decided to make a random comment expressing your beliefs of God.
Also, if you start saying that "yakman didnt need correction" read his quote again. he says "infinite wisdom and power" which implies that one can do ANYTHING. But right after that he says "unable". this is a contradiction.

2: i personally believe that we a society could and have learned a lot from the Holocaust. I also believe that we learn from World Wars. We learn from the Great Depression. and Americans are learning from the current economic crisis that we are going through. Sure they all are bad, but we as a society would not be this advanced if these things did not happen.

EDIT:

One example of something positive that came from World War 2: the United Nations. 192 Countries are a part of the peace keeping organization. This has helped prevent many "mini" wars between nations. Also, the UN has the World Health Organization, World Food Programme, and the United Nations Children's Fund which have definitely benefited society.

From: x[Warrior]x3500
1: Blah blah blah (not insulting, just don't wanna quote that much. :p)

2: tl;dr, you're agreeing with yourself. (which is fine, again, not insulting. :p)

EDIT:

Blah blah blah UN stuff blah blah blah. (^)

1. :p Sorry about the "God doesn't exist" thing. Honestly I just said it because I didn't want to get on the topic of God (which hasn't worked out too well x]). Hopefully that'll conclude that.

2. Yes, we did learn over time, and we will with everything. But how much pain is still worth the knowledge? WWI (this is debatable) caused WWII. Those wars were number one (WWII) and two (WWI) for most casualties in a war in documented history. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll and that's going off the numbers of the Spanish Flu, as well. I can explain why I included the Spanish Flu if you don't know why. :)) And along with that, it (again, this is debatable) caused (or helped cause) the Great Depression. And that's not to include how Germany was doing during and after WWI, or how many of the other European countries were doing. Oh, also WWII concluded with atomic warfare for the first time ever. And what did we learn after hundreds of millions of deaths, innocent people starving to death, being tortured, being worked to the bone, being considered less than human? We learned that we should make the UN? :/ I dunno, I don't think we learned much from the early 1900s.

Oohhh. Here's a great picture which is why I think humanity is disgusting.

http://i43.tinypic.com/t9v3h1.jpg

From: i luffs yeww

And along with that, it (again, this is debatable) caused (or helped cause) the Great Depression.

Well this part i would take a stance against you. War has shown to jump-start an economy, not lead it into the Great Depression. Some major reasons why the Great Depression happened: too many people put everything they had into stocks, then the stock market crashed; banks started failing (and most accounts were uninsured); Smoot-Hawley Tariff (little trade with other countries now). Those are some major reasons why the Great Depression happened. Notice how none of them pertain to war. :)

From: i luffs yeww
And that's not to include how Germany was doing during and after WWI

Actually i love this topic, and people hate my opinion. Germany was in such bad shape that they relied upon hope and desperation to save them. They turned to Hitler. Hitler was an amazing leader during this time because he was able to get them out of this super bad economic crisis (or at least helped make it better). The crisis in Germany was what led to Hitlers power. Today, even when we go through an economic crisis, we still remember about Hitler and are reluctant to give whomever we deem our saving leader too much power. This situation helps us be more cautious when choosing our leaders, even if times are bad. This helps prevent further Hitlers or mini-Hitlers from ever having power.

We lost a lot of lives, but we learned that even in a western society, a tyrant can take over if we are not careful. We learned the true power a leader can possess.

From: i luffs yeww
Oh, also WWII concluded with atomic warfare for the first time ever.

Yes it did, and because people were able to see the massive devastation it caused, the two leaders (of USSR and USA) did not engage in a war (i am referring to the Cold War). Both sides were going to send atomic weapons, but both knew (because of WWII) how destructive they were. I personally believe that if the bombings in Japan never happened, the Cold War would have turned into the Atomic War and WAY more ppl would have died.

Too lazy to reply specifically. :p But about Hitler, I think he did about as much or more good than like.. FDR. Except the whole Holocaust thing. :p Which wasn't good at all. But besides that, Hitler was a great leader.

And I woke up an hour ago (haha at 3:30 in the after noon. x]) so I'm too lazy to debate right now.

Have fun with whatever. ^^

From: i luffs yeww
Too lazy to reply specifically. :p But about Hitler, I think he did about as much or more good than like.. FDR. Except the whole Holocaust thing. :p Which wasn't good at all. But besides that, Hitler was a great leader.

YES!!!! YES YES YES. Finally someone that has looked beyond the holocaust incident and seen Hitler's good side. and when i referred to mini-Hitlers coming up, i just meant the bad side about him.

Ok but back to the subject, i do believe that the question itself is invalid due to the ideas of "good" and "bad" purely being opinions.

From: x[Warrior]x3500
YES!!!! YES YES YES. Finally someone that has looked beyond the holocaust incident and seen Hitler's good side. and when i referred to mini-Hitlers coming up, i just meant the bad side about him.

Ok but back to the subject, i do believe that the question itself is invalid due to the ideas of "good" and "bad" purely being opinions.

SERIOUSLY. I told my mom that I thought, disregarding the Holocaust, Hitler was a great leader and she didn't talk to me for a few days. >_>

And I know what you meant. ;)

Yeah, that's the hardest part about this topic. "Good" and "bad" are based on many things; culture, parents, friends, religion, faith, beliefs, politics, gender, race, age, etc., so it's not really possible to have a single "good" or a single "bad." :<

"There is no truth, only many truths." :3

(That's from a lecture about Nietzsche I have. There's a lot of philosophers who are spoken of in it. Good set of lectures. :p Oh, and I said that because I'm not sure if Nietzsche actually said that, or if he said something similar, or whatever. But yeah..)

From: i luffs yeww

That's from a lecture about Nietzsche I have. There's a lot of philosophers who are spoken of in it. Good set of lectures. :p Oh, and I said that because I'm not sure if Nietzsche actually said that, or if he said something similar, or whatever. But yeah..

actually i just finished reading Nietzsche's On The Genealogy of Morality. It is fascinating! highly recommend reading this work. he believes that morals are ever changing (evolving). and he believes that all knowledge is from a perspective (this would effect morals). very interesting book to read

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

Just had to throw out that quote, it's all I can think about whenever I see people talk for or against God. Not the point of my post, just needed to get that out of my system. Moving forward.

[QUOTE='x[Warrior]Hitler's good side

Yes! To those who aren't very good with their history, Germany did well during The Great Depression. Adolf Hitler helped unite Germany and pull the country ahead and out of the depression. He then proceeded to do some bad things, but that in turn pulled the others out of the depression with all the job and factories that were opened. There was ups and downs to it, not just all bad.

I've almost everything he's written. I <3 Nietzsche. ^^

And yeah, good quote, scuba. :3

From: scubajesus
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

Just had to throw out that quote, it's all I can think about whenever I see people talk for or against God. Not the point of my post, just needed to get that out of my system.

Wrong topic.

But since u brought up this quote, i have another quote from CS Lewis. I urge you to study Descartes' 4th meditation with this quote. (this quote addresses the bold words)

But in reality we have no experience of anyone liking badness just because it is bad. The nearest we can get to it is cruelty. But in real life people are cruel from one of two reasons - either because they are sadists, that is, because they have a sexual perversion which makes cruelty a cause of sensual pleasure to them, or else for the sake of something they are going to get out of it - money, or power, or safety. But pleasure, money, power, and safety are all, as far as they go, good things. The badness consists in pursuing them by the wrong method, or in the wrong way, or too much. I do not mean, of course, that the people who do this are not desperately wicked. I do mean that wickedness, when you examine it, turns out to be the pursuit of some good in the wrong way. You can be good for the mere sake of goodness: you cannot be bad for the mere sake of badness. You can do a kind action when you are not feeling kind and when it gives you no pleasure, simply because kindness is right; but no one ever did a cruel action simply because cruelty is wrong - only because cruelty was pleasant or useful to him. In other words badness cannot succeed even in being bad in the same way in which goodness is good. And there must be something good first before it can be spoiled.

Well since it's about quotes right now, I'd like to point you in the direction of one of my favorite quotes of all time.

Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

(Bolded for emphasis, according to wikipedia.)

From: i luffs yeww
Well since it's about quotes right now, I'd like to point you in the direction of one of my favorite quotes of all time.

Marxist i see.

:p I suppose you could say that. I don't read about him much, though.

On the topic of microevolution, check out endosymbiosis. Its a very interesting topic about how current day Eukaryotes came to be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endosymbiotic_theory

Evolution > Creationism. kthnxbai.

Opium is a natural chemical defense that the poppy plant uses to protect it from being eaten by various herbivores.

So, there is a clear Darwinistic, rational explanation for Opium existing in nature.

However, those who would denigrate religion as an "opium of the people" cannot provide a similar Darwinistic, rational explanation for why our human physiology is set up to respond to religious experiences.

Neurobiologists have studied religious experiences in the lab. They have been able to "re-create" them by stimulating various parts of the brain. And yet, there is no explanation for why such physiology exists in the first place.

I would argue that anyone that avoids or disregards religion is not fully human, since they refuse to embrace this integral part of our being.

From: i luffs yeww
Actually, we're quite closely related to lemurs, which is quite interesting, in my opinion.

Anyway. Things evolve differently. I hope you'd know that, but I guess not. Maybe you could try looking into some proof of natural selection like vestigial structures. :) I think it's pretty cool. And you may not think at as any disproof of the Qur'an, which is fine, but I hope you'll see that that's no proof of a god. ;)

No that does not make sense. The Quran has NO grammatical errors. Has all the miracles you could possibly want. The Quran was sent down to the prophet Mohammad (pbh). So obviously since the Quran IS real then Allah IS real. That is proof of god. The Quran. Its Allahs.

Goodness man your lack of knowledge about Islam is interesting.
Cmon man Islam is on the news 24/7!!

From: kingarabian
No that does not make sense. The Quran has NO grammatical errors. Has all the miracles you could possibly want. The Quran was sent down to the prophet Mohammad (pbh). So obviously since the Quran IS real then Allah IS real. That is proof of god. The Quran. Its Allahs.

Goodness man your lack of knowledge about Islam is interesting.
Cmon man Islam is on the news 24/7!!

Did you read any books by Richard Dawkins yet?
I can also write a book called ``Buran'' with ``Ali'' as a god, and invent a few miracles.. How the **** is that proof of anything?
So if I write down ``God does not exist'' then that is proof?

From: tarajunky
Opium is a natural chemical defense that the poppy plant uses to protect it from being eaten by various herbivores.

So, there is a clear Darwinistic, rational explanation for Opium existing in nature.

However, those who would denigrate religion as an "opium of the people" cannot provide a similar Darwinistic, rational explanation for why our human physiology is set up to respond to religious experiences.

Neurobiologists have studied religious experiences in the lab. They have been able to "re-create" them by stimulating various parts of the brain. And yet, there is no explanation for why such physiology exists in the first place.

I would argue that anyone that avoids or disregards religion is not fully human, since they refuse to embrace this integral part of our being.

The religious experiences you speak of can be achieved many ways - meditation, psychedelic drugs, praying (a form of meditation in most religions, where you get in a trance-like state and completely relenquish yourself to something, in this case a higher power). The common theme across all of them seems to be you let go of your ego and open yourself to love - meditation and psychedelic users say it's connecting as one with the energy of the universe, and expanding your awareness to it.

Religions put a "higher power" spin on it, and say its evidence of a creator/whatever - which isnt suprising considering some of the things people see when they have these experiences. To someone unaware of the current scientific knowledge of today, like the founders of religions weren't thousands of years ago, it is no suprise they thought something mystical was giving them that vision, rather than them simply unlocking the full potential of their minds. I think its worth noting the most powerful psychedelic drugs known before LSD was discovered ~70 years ago, such as magic mushrooms, peyote, and ayahuasca, which produce these experiences, were used for thousands and thousands of years by ancient religions in initiation ceremonies, meditation sessions, and so on to produce these effects.

I think Timothy Leary's The Psychedelic Experience would be a very illuminating read for you, even if you've never done and never plan on doing drugs. If you get bored of the first part read "II. The Tibetan Book Of The Dead". Even if only to come back here and prove me wrong.

From: tarajunky
I would argue that anyone that avoids or disregards "religious"/mystical experiences obtained in the most logical, reliable, easiest, scientificly correct and plausible way (psychedelic drugs) is not fully human, since they refuse to embrace this integral part of our being.

Fix'd :rolleyes:

From: Wizzup?
Did you read any books by Richard Dawkins yet?
I can also write a book called ``Buran'' with ``Ali'' as a good, and invent a few miracles.. How the **** is that proof of anything?
So if I write down ``God does not exist'' then that is proof?

Sorry I cant read it about it now. Will look into it soon tho.

No you dont get it. The Quran was sent down from god. Revealed to an illiterate man (the prophet (pbh). The fact that the Quran was sent down 1400 years ago with ALL those miracles is proof. How else? Science advances didnt happen till 300-400 years ago? Allah sent it down 1400 years ago, he is all knowing.

Edit: Go ahead make your own "buran". Make it with perfect grammar, also give us a few miracles while your at it. Give us some true predictions. Also give us some scientific knowledge that science has never discovered yet.

I dont get that last sentence.

1. I don't think so, Muslims also believe that Allah is all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful. This thread applies equally to Muslims.

2. Lets for a moment assume it is true.
The same logic also applies to all natural disasters where undeserving people died. How about the 2004 Tsunami which killed about 150000 people? Many of those were children or innocent adults who really didn't deserve it, yet Allah killed them in the early morning while they were sleeping. How could He do that if He is meant to be all-loving?

Perhaps I could come up with an example closer to you. Why does God allow those murderous Jews in Isreal to kill innocent Palestinian children? Thousands of good Muslims have died very painful deaths since Isreal was founded, where was Allah in all this?

2. Allah "killed" them? Well those indoneasia has plenty of muslims, and when we die we know were gonna go to either heaven or hell. Sometimes this life is full of hate, people commit suicide. Just look at the suicide rate in Japan.

Muslims believe Allah put us in this world to test us to see if we would worship him. We all will come back to him eventually.

As for the Jews. There end is near. Except they will probably nuke all the arabs before they leave. My dad has 3 christian friends, who adopted children. They all moved to Iraq, getting ready to enter Palestine. (They told my dad this).

Jews are not a problem for us. Its the hypocrites in Egypt, Syria, the UAE, and even Saudia arabia who support the Jews.

The Quran says the Jews will cause mischief twice in this world. The 1st one was believed to be at the time of the babylons. The 2nd one should be at our time. Getting to political here.

Teehee.

From: kingarabian
Sorry I cant read it about it now. Will look into it soon tho.

No you dont get it. The Quran was sent down from god. Revealed to an illiterate man (the prophet (pbh). The fact that the Quran was sent down 1400 years ago with ALL those miracles is proof? How else? Science advances didnt happen till 300-400 years ago? Allah sent it down, he is all knowing.

Edit: Go ahead make your own "buran". Make it with perfect grammar, also give us a few miracles while your at it. Give us some true predictions. Also give us some scientific knowledge that science has never discovered yet.

I dont get that last sentence.

My last sentence meant to imply that your only proof is ``That it is written down.'' So I wrote down that God doesn't exist.

Anyway… What you just said about proof… It doesn't really prove anything by itself. You're saying the Quran is true because it was written 1400 years ago.

The fact that it was ``sent down by Allah'' is totally unprovable.
What miracles are you talking about? Previously thunder was seen as a miracle, a sign of a God. Now we all know different.
What predictions did the Quran do that came out?

PS: "How else?" points at strong indoctrination.

From: kingarabian

No you dont get it. The Quran was sent down from god. Revealed to an illiterate man (the prophet (pbh). The fact that the Quran was sent down 1400 years ago with ALL those miracles is proof. How else? Science advances didnt happen till 300-400 years ago? Allah sent it down 1400 years ago, he is all knowing.

see the only thing that you fail to recognize is that since Galileo, we as a society have become very reluctant to mix Science and Religion. To most people, religious evidence (like the Quran or miracles) should never be used within the scientific realm. So don't be surprised that most of the people here dont take your Quran to be true. And it doesnt help that you only are offering support that is from the Quran.

From: Wizzup?
My last sentence meant to imply that your only proof is ``That it is written down.'' So I wrote down that God doesn't exist.

Anyway… What you just said about proof… It doesn't really prove anything by itself. You're saying the Quran is true because it was written 1400 years ago.

The fact that it was ``sent down by Allah'' is totally unprovable.
What miracles are you talking about? Previously thunder was seen as a miracle, a sign of a God. Now we all know different.
What predictions did the Quran do that came out?

PS: "How else?" points at strong indoctrination.

When you read the miracles of the Quran you will be enlightened.

Edit: Quran.

2Edit:
http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

http://miraclesofthequran.com/historical_index.html

http://miraclesofthequran.com/predictions_index.html

http://miraclesofthequran.com/perfection_index.html

http://miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_index.html

Explain to me in detail how all these facts happened to be in the Quran 1400 years ago, without Allah sending it down.

From: kingarabian
When you read the miracles of the Quran you will be enlightened.

Edit: Quran.

2Edit:
http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

http://miraclesofthequran.com/historical_index.html

http://miraclesofthequran.com/predictions_index.html

http://miraclesofthequran.com/perfection_index.html

http://miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_index.html

are you ever gunna read my post? or r u just gunna keep posting this stuff even though it does nothing.

you are trying to debate a topic using religion when others are using science. when debating with atheists, you need to either argue with reason or science. religion is not accepted because religion is based upon faith, and faith can not be proven beyond all belief.

Edit:
Actually science is based on faith also, but everyone shares their faith in science.

I still don't see any proof. Your proof is that it's written in a book. There are also books written with perfect grammar that contradict the Qur'an.

From: x[Warrior]x3500
are you ever gunna read my post? or r u just gunna keep posting this stuff even though it does nothing.

you are trying to debate a topic using religion when others are using science. when debating with atheists, you need to either argue with reason or science. religion is not accepted because religion is based upon faith, and faith can not be proven beyond all belief.

I did. But look, these athiests want proof, and the Quran has all the Scientificproof.

From: i luffs yeww
I still don't see any proof. Your proof is that it's written in a book. There are also books written with perfect grammar that contradict the Qur'an.

Im proving to you that god is real because of the Quran, since it was sent down by him. But are there books with correct predictions of the future and scientific facts that science has not yet discovered?

Fuck it, not going to bother answering to you anymore bro.

From: kingarabian
I did. But look, these athiests want proof, and the Quran has all the Scientificproof.

all i see u posting are "miracle this, miracle that". sry, but miracles can not be proven scientifically. what scientific evidence does it have?

Warrior, I think he read your post. But that's not how he views it. He doesn't view religion as faith. He views it as reason and absolute truth.

Haha like.. triple ninjad. x]

Anyway, I don't think you see his point. :< Although not a scientifically valid one, it's still a point I guess. :p

He thinks that because there was a book awhile ago, and a bunch of people believe it, and it's all about very basic life and can be directly associated with non-religious facts as well, that it's (scientific) proof of god.

From: x[Warrior]x3500
all i see u posting are "miracle this, miracle that". sry, but miracles can not be proven scientifically. what scientific evidence does it have?

http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

http://miraclesofthequran.com/historical_index.html

http://miraclesofthequran.com/predictions_index.html

http://miraclesofthequran.com/perfection_index.html

http://miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_index.html

Read god damn it.

From: i luffs yeww
Warrior, I think he read your post. But that's not how he views it. He doesn't view religion as faith. He views it as reason and absolute truth.

Haha like.. triple ninjad. x]

Anyway, I don't think you see his point. :< Although not a scientifically valid one, it's still a point I guess. :p

He thinks that because there was a book awhile ago, and a bunch of people believe it, and it's all about very basic life and can be directly associated with non-religious facts as well, that it's (scientific) proof of god.

You dont know what I think so dont say "he thinks". That last paragraph was a pure insult.

1.The "book" still fricking exists.

2. 1.5 billion people believe in it to be exact.

3. No its not, its law, its science, and the way of life.

Good job on being arrogant.

… http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_68.html

Most of these ``miracles'' are simply facts that have been known for centuries.

I read about 5 of these, and they are incredible far fetched. Often the words that are highlighed from the Quran hardly have anything to do with the scientifical fact…

I read some of them. One of them was about leaving Earth and apparently that's proof? There were hopes and dreams to go to the sun and the moon long before there was the Qur'an. Cavemen undoubtedly dreamed of it. They most likely viewed the sun and the moon and the stars as gods and goddesses and angels and what not. Why wouldn't they? They had no idea what they were, and along with that, when they looked at the sun, it pained them. I know for sure that they'd thing it was something much more natural (a.k.a. supernatural) than they were, and treated it as such.

tl;dr, no proof.

From: Wizzup?
… http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_68.html

Most of these ``miracles'' are simply facts that have been known for centuries.
Also, how can a miracle on that site be ``new''… Did someone just add a few words to the Quran again, based on new scientific researches?

I read about 5 of these, and they are incredible far fetched. Often the words that are highlighed from the Quran hardly have anything to do with the scientifical fact…

Known for 14 centuries?

Anyways it was very fun.

@Warrior dont bother with athiests that my advice.

@Yakman_ theres still hope <333

@Wizzup perhaps the best one on this thread <3333

@Tara have faith!

Done here.

From: kingarabian
Known for 14 centuries?

Sure…

From: Wizzup?
Sure…

Yes! Haha right there! At least your mind opened up :spot:

Btw if your planning to deny history, then ww1 didnt happen, ww2, didnt happen, the civil war didnt happen, and I can keep going on and on and on!

Is there any documented proof of any of the stuff in the Qur'an, other than the Qur'an? Oh, and again, many of these things are in EVERY SINGLE OTHER RELIGION THAT HAS EVER EXISTED.

Damn.

"And to Sulayman We gave the fiercely blowing wind, speeding at his command toward the land that We had blessed. And We had full knowledge of everything. (Qur'an, 21:81)

As the above verse relates, Allah placed the wind under Prophet Sulayman's (as) command and allowed him to use it as a vehicle. There is a strong possibility of an indication here that, as in Prophet Sulayman's (as) time, wind energy will also be used in the technology of the future."

wat

The verse in the Qur'an has absolutely nothing to do with airplanes. x]

Hahahhaaha

"The number 19 is the total of the numbers 9 and 10 to the power of 1. The difference between the numbers 9 and 10 to the power of 2 is again 19."

what? x] Is there only one way to get 19? There are innumerable ways to get 19.

Also, "Halley's Comet passes through the Solar System once every 76 years (19 x 4)." there are, again, more ways to get 76 than just using the number 19. -_- Any real number can be reached using the number 19. That goes for four, 27, 18, and one.

Another thing, do you think there's anything special about the number 19?

"And this is a Book We have sent down and blessed, so follow it and have fear of Allah so that hopefully you will gain mercy. (Qur'an, 6:155)"

Gah. That's the main reason I absolutely can't stand religious texts. Sure, believe that the world was created by some outside being, whatever. But the fact that all religious rules teach followers to not question, and to stay in fear of eternal damnation of some sort is terrible. (Which is why Nietzsche said that religion is nihilistic.)

"And horses, mules, and donkeys both to ride and for adornment. And He creates other things you do not know. (Qur'an, 16:8)

The above verse indicates that in addition to the animals mentioned here, people will have various unknown (to them) means of transport. The following verse points to the fact that there will be such mass modes of transport as ships:

A Sign for them is that We carried their families in the laden ship. And We have created for them the like of it, in which they sail. (Qur'an, 36:41-42)"

>_>.. How is that proof? For decades now we've portrayed alien spaceships and flying saucers. That doesn't mean that it's proof that we exist.

God left pot everywhere. He's paying the world back for smoking his stash.

/thread

From: kingarabian
Yes! Haha right there! At least your mind opened up :spot:

Btw if your planning to deny history, then ww1 didnt happen, ww2, didnt happen, the civil war didnt happen, and I can keep going on and on and on!

Wow, you are incredibly closed minded. Maybe when you're older you will see (I hope so). I will refer you back to my last post: http://villavu.com/forum/showpost.php?p=697340&postcount=51. I'm not suggesting you do psychadelics, as I get the sense at this stage in your life they would completely rip you apart mentally, but you're aware of the "clear light" - just you're wrong about what it is, where it comes from, and how to get there.

Claw, you are so focused on exploiting your religious physiology that you never woner WHY such a system exists in the first place. The natural stimulus for that system seems to be religious experience, and does not require drugs at all.

This would explain why every human culture develops religious traditions. Some do exploit/abuse that physiology as a short cut to getting high. But to me that seems unnatural and contrary to God/nature's intended purpose.

Since you're so interested in "expanding your mind", perhaps you can spend some time thinking about the WHY instead of just the HOW.

From: Yakman
More people have abandoned their faith because of the problem of suffering than for any other reason. It is certainly the greatest test of faith, the greatest temptation to unbelief. And it's not just an intellectual objection. We feel it. We live it.

The problem can be stated very simply. If God is so good, why Is his world so bad? If an all-good, all-wise, all-loving, all-just, and all-powerful God is running the show, why does he seem to be doing such a miserable job of it? Why do bad things happen to good people?


Ask yourself this: why did god create the tapeworm? Why did he create the HIV virus? Why did he create that wasp that lays its eggs in the body of a live caterpillar?

Seriously: ask yourself those questions.

Maybe God allowed them to happen for reasons of science? Everything can be applied to a question. Ask yourself why did God make something so pleasent then? Heaven is suppose to be a 'perfect' place where you can stay for an eternity, why would God want to make this earth without bad then and all good? Then Heaven wouldn't be as awesome when you get there. =p

One thing that I see A LOT of people overlook when something like this comes up is, that God SEEKS glory. He wants to be glorified and sometimes to get that glory bad things happen, call it selfish/cruel if you want but that is what I have come to realize. Sometimes it drives people away from God but in the end God seeks glory.

It is just like any other relationship you come across, if you don't 'glorify' the other party that other party will leave you or try to seek that glory.

Also it could have been perfect and pain-free, had stupid Adam not ate fruit from that stupid tree.

You really can't answer why, only God knows why.

Offtopic but here's a couple things to ease the evolution confusion. We did not come from monkeys (apes/lemurs/fish/w.e). This trips up people a lot. We and monkeys etc both came from the same species, which now has become extinct. Another thing is that people do not realize the vast amount of information in DNA, so when they read that apes and humans share 99.99% of DNA, they don't realize just how easily that 0.01% can account for the differences between apes and humans, and between humans themselves. Of course I could be wrong about that, because I read it in a book, and books are written by people, and people are wrong quite often (intentionally or not).

Along with what you said, Boreas, something like an average of 60% of 80% or something of all species' DNA is the same. Or something like that..

Haha basically I'm just saying that everything is very similar in genetic makeup. I'm high.

From: i luffs yeww
1. :p Sorry about the "God doesn't exist" thing. Honestly I just said it because I didn't want to get on the topic of God (which hasn't worked out too well x]). Hopefully that'll conclude that.

2. Yes, we did learn over time, and we will with everything. But how much pain is still worth the knowledge? WWI (this is debatable) caused WWII. Those wars were number one (WWII) and two (WWI) for most casualties in a war in documented history. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll and that's going off the numbers of the Spanish Flu, as well. I can explain why I included the Spanish Flu if you don't know why. :)) And along with that, it (again, this is debatable) caused (or helped cause) the Great Depression. And that's not to include how Germany was doing during and after WWI, or how many of the other European countries were doing. Oh, also WWII concluded with atomic warfare for the first time ever. And what did we learn after hundreds of millions of deaths, innocent people starving to death, being tortured, being worked to the bone, being considered less than human? We learned that we should make the UN? :/ I dunno, I don't think we learned much from the early 1900s.

Oohhh. Here's a great picture which is why I think humanity is disgusting.

http://i43.tinypic.com/t9v3h1.jpg

Just to clear things up for you, WW2 didn't start because of the Holocaust. In fact, every country wanted to stay out of Germany during the beginnings of the Holocaust in fear of another war.

WW2 started after Germany and Russia agreed to split Poland, then Germany took Poland over.

From: TViYH
Just to clear things up for you, WW2 didn't start because of the Holocaust. In fact, every country wanted to stay out of Germany during the beginnings of the Holocaust in fear of another war.

WW2 started after Germany and Russia agreed to split Poland, then Germany took Poland over.

wat

I said "WWI caused WWII."

From: The Claw
Wow, you are incredibly closed minded. Maybe when you're older you will see (I hope so). I will refer you back to my last post: http://villavu.com/forum/showpost.php?p=697340&postcount=51. I'm not suggesting you do psychadelics, as I get the sense at this stage in your life they would completely rip you apart mentally, but you're aware of the "clear light" - just you're wrong about what it is, where it comes from, and how to get there.

I second this. I was raised a Jehovah's Witness and was incredibly closed minded about everything and anything that could disprove my view of the world. When I got older things changed. After realizing the lengths my religion would go to in order to keep its followers from even researching or thinking about certain things (other religions, meditation, evolution ect.) I knew that I could not go on believing this.

I now consider myself agnostic, or essentially neutral in the aspects of the "why" question. Although I do not claim a religion, I still consider myself to be in a spiritual harmony with the world. This was solidified after I took psilocybin mushrooms for the first time. It was literally the most peaceful, spiritual day of my life. It really puts things into perspective. I recommend researching into them, the benefits are astounding.

But like Claw said, you don't have to go straight to a drug in order to gain perspective, but you need to be able to start to "look outside the box". At least open up your mind enough to understand that there might not be just one true religion, or one right answer. Maybe it is a little bit of everything… or maybe nothing that mankind has even thought of…

Saying that you know for certain that X happens only because Y says so is ignorant. Believe what you believe not because you were raised that way or because of what someone tells you to believe. Maybe you could read and spend time (sincerely) researching into something you normally wouldn't agree with. Then use your mind and draw your own conclusions. You were born free so live free.

From: kingarabian
Yes! Haha right there! At least your mind opened up :spot:

Btw if your planning to deny history, then ww1 didnt happen, ww2, didnt happen, the civil war didnt happen, and I can keep going on and on and on!

Dude, what is up with your sig?

From: tarajunky
Claw, you are so focused on exploiting your religious physiology that you never woner WHY such a system exists in the first place. The natural stimulus for that system seems to be religious experience, and does not require drugs at all.

This would explain why every human culture develops religious traditions. Some do exploit/abuse that physiology as a short cut to getting high. But to me that seems unnatural and contrary to God/nature's intended purpose.

Since you're so interested in "expanding your mind", perhaps you can spend some time thinking about the WHY instead of just the HOW.

Actually, I have spent a LOT of time wondering why this religious physiology exists. It is clearly extremely beneficial on both a personal and evolutionary level, and directs people to the correct way of living - that is, living in love and harmony with the world and people/creatures around them. That's the whole reason behind religious cultures, and the whole reason behind psychedelic cultures. Contrary to what you think, it's not just junkie teenagers looking for an easy way to get high who take these drugs - many of the visionaries of recent and current times were and are avid psychedelic users. A shortcut to getting high? If people just wanted to get high, they'd smoke some weed. Psychedelics can be used in a party setting (as in just to get high) by the experienced, but first and foremost they are NOT a party drug - they are a very powerful spiritual tool. Your ignorance is showing, you are clearly un/mis-informed.

Edit - Psychedelic's don't act like normal drugs in that they have predictable effects, they act as chemical keys to unlock certain areas/doors in your conciousness - having a profound experience is still very much up to the individual's mindset and location as is whether or not a trip will be good or bad. The effects can be generalised, though. Other ways of unlocking these areas or functions of conciousness are explained in my other posts.

I've got some WHY's for you -
- If a god created created everything down to the finest detail, why did it create us to have these profound reactions to certain chemicals?
- If a god created the basic ingredients and let evolution take its course, which is what most religions are changing their stories to now, why did we evolve to have these certain reactions to these chemicals? People have been inducing religious experiences from common psychedelic drugs since before religions existed - if there was an evolutionary disadvantage to taking psychedelics, why are we still able to take them? (I say since before religons existed because Occam's Razor suggests a caveman wandered across some psychedelic mushrooms, ate them, had a religious experience and then showed his friends and then tried to emulate the experience before we had evolved enough to communicate, read, write, and then invent a whole religion (which would take quite a while and a significant amount of intelligence))
- Why do you think during the crusades the church outlawed psychedelics on pain of death and destroyed as much as they could of them? (protip: the answer is because in order to gain more power, control and followers they had to convince people that becoming indoctrinated, following arbitrary rules and giving total control over themselves (as in, become religious) was the only way to get these experiences).

Two nights ago I ingested 7 grams of shrooms, and experienced death - my ego died, my body was in complete ecstasy. I literally witnessed the death of my old self. It was the most amazing experience ever, words cannot do it justice. Even sex doesn't compare, at all. The Tibetans call this experience the "Clear Light", saints and mystics of the west call it "Illumination". It was on par with the most intense religious experiences I have read about, and greater than others - most buddhas, monks, priests, etc who dedicate their whole lives to their religion never even come close to what I and millions of others have experienced through drugs and meditation. I find it sad that people's preconcieved notions, incorrect knowledge about drugs and their fear of breaking tradition/going agaisnt their parent's views about life/fear of going to hell (do you guys still believe in that? not sure if science has disproven it yet) or disobeying their religion prevents them from ever achieving something people have been striving to achieve for as long as humanity has existed.

From: gerauchert
I second this. I was raised a Jehovah's Witness and was incredibly closed minded about everything and anything that could disprove my view of the world. When I got older things changed. After realizing the lengths my religion would go to in order to keep its followers from even researching or thinking about certain things (other religions, meditation, evolution ect.) I knew that I could not go on believing this.

I now consider myself agnostic, or essentially neutral in the aspects of the "why" question. Although I do not claim a religion, I still consider myself to be in a spiritual harmony with the world. This was solidified after I took psilocybin mushrooms for the first time. It was literally the most peaceful, spiritual day of my life. It really puts things into perspective. I recommend researching into them, the benefits are astounding.

But like Claw said, you don't have to go straight to a drug in order to gain perspective, but you need to be able to start to "look outside the box". At least open up your mind enough to understand that there might not be just one true religion, or one right answer. Maybe it is a little bit of everything… or maybe nothing that mankind has even thought of…

Saying that you know for certain that X happens only because Y says so is ignorant. Believe what you believe not because you were raised that way or because of what someone tells you to believe. Maybe you could read and spend time (sincerely) researching into something you normally wouldn't agree with. Then use your mind and draw your own conclusions. You were born free so live free.

Dude, thats a massive transformation. Epic congrats. I was rasied agnostic so it wasn't much of a big deal for me to decide to experiment with psychedelics, but for you it must have been quite the step.

:o gerauchert, when'd you question your religion? I was raised Catholic from birth until about age five, then I was raised Mormon until ten and then I had some Christian views pushed on me until a year or two ago, which was the first time I really got my atheistic views.

And Claw.. <3. :)

there is no such thing as a good person

From: i luffs yeww
wat

I said "WWI caused WWII."

No, you said that the Holocaust started WW2

EDIT: Oh, I see. Must have edited it out.

I actually haven't edited that post.

The problem with hijacking your religious physiology is that you remove context. It is naturally activated during religious experiences. That provides a teachable moment.

It's like having sex with your wife is different than having sex with a prostitute or your mom. Physiologically the experience may be very similar, but contextually they are not in any way the same.

I believe that our physiology has been purposely designed to respond to religious experiences to allow us to learn and grow, and to teach us which behaviors are good and fulfilling. Hijacking it by taking drugs removes all of that natural context, and all of the value.

Some people might prefer prostitutes. They might never want a committed relationship. They might even try to convince you how great it is and that you're missing out. But that's their loss.

So, tara, if someone who wasn't raised religious, isn't religious, and never had any knowledge of religion even existing, are you saying that they can't thrive and be successful? Religion is just the scapegoat of life. And it "teaches" "life lessons," which are really just commonly known life facts. For example, in Christianity, gluttony and sloth-like behaviors are shunned. However, those are quite obvious, as you should know, by looking at humans from a medical view.

From: i luffs yeww
So, tara, if someone who wasn't raised religious, isn't religious, and never had any knowledge of religion even existing, are you saying that they can't thrive and be successful? Religion is just the scapegoat of life. And it "teaches" "life lessons," which are really just commonly known life facts. For example, in Christianity, gluttony and sloth-like behaviors are shunned. However, those are quite obvious, as you should know, by looking at humans from a medical view.

Usually the non-religious are the lost ones.

And where do you get that from?

From: i luffs yeww
And where do you get that from?

Depends on how your gonna look at it.
(Btw this excludes those cronic priests and baptists who had that sex scandal with them kids lmao.)

So then how can you say that it's true at all?

From: i luffs yeww
So then how can you say that it's true at all?

Didnt. Happens most to those who are from a religious family.

Wait what? Haha I still don't see why you think that because I'm an atheist I'm lost in life..

Religion itself is not the end goal, but it can be a path to truth and a relationship with God.

There are plenty of people that were raised "non-religious" or worse, but decided that they wanted to explore it for themselves.

If you look back at Abraham, his father was an idol worshipper. But that didn't stop Abraham from seeking and finding God.

My grandparents ran a grocery store. My dad caught worms for a living. But I developed an interest in science and became a PhD. Only one of my other sibling even graduated from college, and it was in theater. Perhaps being raised in a "non-science" family made it more difficult for me to follow that path, but everyone ultimately has their own free will about what's important to them, and worth their time and effort.

I didn't learn about science by doing it all on my own, I learned from books and from teachers and from people that were experienced in it. I think approaching religion/spirituality in the same way makes perfect sense. Read the books that have been written (Scriptures), go listen to some teachers (missionaries), follow the example and advice of spiritual people you respect.

I believe that anyone that makes an honest effort will receive God's help and guidance in this pursuit, so that in the end you will end up where he wants you to be.

From: i luffs yeww
Wait what? Haha I still don't see why you think that because I'm an atheist I'm lost in life..

I wouldnt say most atheists are lost. Actually most of them know the world around them, but they are raised without a goal.

From: tarajunky

I believe that anyone that makes an honest effort will receive God's help and guidance in this pursuit, so that in the end you will end up where he wants you to be.

100% true. If god destined for you to be an atheist and a non-believer then be it.

Dude on CNN said it all:

If you don't believe in God, you don't believe in ultimate accountability, you don't believe in anything higher than the human (male) ego – and there's the end of your moral compass. The only reason the term "moral compass" still has any meaning whatsoever is because of all the people around you who do believe, and who do, by and large, practice what they preach.

It's like with vaccines. Enough people get them that the people who don't are also protected. Same thing. Atheists are always a minority – for a good reason. The day that changes, society will indeed collapse into anarchy & mayhem.

Not trying to be offensive!

From: kingarabian
I wouldnt say most atheists are lost. Actually most of them know the world around them, but they are raised without a goal.

I'd say it's the opposite. But that's probably because I strongly believe that all religions are nihilistic. I'd consider you quite nihilistic.

From: tarajunky
The problem with hijacking your religious physiology is that you remove context. It is naturally activated during religious experiences. That provides a teachable moment.

It's like having sex with your wife is different than having sex with a prostitute or your mom. Physiologically the experience may be very similar, but contextually they are not in any way the same.

I believe that our physiology has been purposely designed to respond to religious experiences to allow us to learn and grow, and to teach us which behaviors are good and fulfilling. Hijacking it by taking drugs removes all of that natural context, and all of the value.

Some people might prefer prostitutes. They might never want a committed relationship. They might even try to convince you how great it is and that you're missing out. But that's their loss.

And I believe our religious physiology was designed explicitly to be activated by whatever it could - like I said, why would a god have allowed it to be activated by drugs if it didnt want it to? Why would we have evolved to allow this to be the case? It is natually activated by what you call religous experiences (basically giving up of the ego to a higher power and allowing yourself to be filled with love and happiness), and it is naturally activated by naturally occuring drugs and chemicals. And it is naturally activated by natural actions such as meditation and sensory deprivation.

Discriminating between which is the "correct" way to activate it based off social stigma/things you have been told/forced to believe makes no sense at all. Once you get there, everything else is irrelevant. Context makes no difference. It only matters that you got there, the teachings and insights are the same regardless of the method. This is different from sex, I understand and agree with your point, but this experience is so powerful it overrides everything else (the way you feel about the method you used to get there, for example).

There are also alot of trippers who are devoutly religious - George Harrison for one. He was raised religious, found psychedelic drugs, became one of the most enlightened people around, and died still believing in a god.

As I said from the beginning, there is no rational explanation for humans to develop a sensitivity to psychedelics that already exist in nature. One could devise a logical explanation for psychedelics arising as a chemical defense against being eaten, but not the other way around.

To even suggest that our physiology was "designed explicitly to be activated by whatever it could" means that there must be a "designer" that made it that way, which you reject.

From: tarajunky
As I said from the beginning, there is no rational explanation for humans to develop a sensitivity to psychedelics that already exist in nature. One could devise a logical explanation for psychedelics arising as a chemical defense against being eaten, but not the other way around.

To even suggest that our physiology was "designed explicitly to be activated by whatever it could" means that there must be a "designer" that made it that way, which you reject.

Or that its evolutionary advantageous, which it clearly is.

My personal beliefs have nothing to do with this. You keep dancing around the questions I ask and turning them back onto me or picking on semantics.

Again - you accept the idea of a creator, why do you think it gave us so many different ways to activate this physiology? Why, as this physiology was developing in evolution (if you take the evolution look), did it develop to be triggered in so many different ways? If there was only one "right" way to activate it, as you claim there is, wouldnt the other ways be not as meaningful/profound (which they are), and why would the church do everything they could to discredit and ban them if they're not useful and harmless?

My main point is theres absolutely no reason to follow all the rules and laws of a religion if you want to have a religious experience and become illuminated for a while. Religions do more harm than good in a spiritual sense, too - they propagate the idea that human impulses are bad and strict guidelines should be followed (no sex before marriage, anti gay/anal sex, etc), that you are constantly in sin (having confessions where you think about all the "bad" you've done lately are encouraged, but this doesnt help people- they feel good after it only due to a belief that a great judge is approving of them - having a NEED and being in fear to please something you think could make you suffer eternally like that is no way at all to live a good life), and generally have you living in constant fear of doing something "wrong". That's not to say they dont do good things for people in need but for most people having a dependence like this is just fucked. Its the ultimate violent dad and judgemental mother.

Under these conditions, most people would never have a religious experience because they are too far stuck inside their own heads and worrying about doing the right thing that they can never progress past their ego. The very act of wanting to be dependant to a creator/higher power is so much of an ego trip that right from the start its already much harder.

From: i luffs yeww
:o gerauchert, when'd you question your religion? I was raised Catholic from birth until about age five, then I was raised Mormon until ten and then I had some Christian views pushed on me until a year or two ago, which was the first time I really got my atheistic views.

And Claw.. <3. :)

Ironically, it was when my ex-girlfriend was trying to "convert" me from Jehovah's Witness ways to "non-denominational" Christian ways. She really helped me see how similar it was to a cult (mostly how the leadership is set up, and how they "dis-fellowship" if you disobey). However, after trying to assimilate into another religion I just saw myself going down the same road without stopping to really think about it. I was about 17 or 18 at the time, and I just said to hell with it all. I have never said "God doesn't exist" or anything like that, so I don't consider myself an atheist. I just know that man is flawed and man's view of what ever it is that connects us spiritually is flawed (even if it has good intention).

I believe that it should be to each his own. If you are able to practice religion without doing harm to others, then do it. If you are able to live a peaceful and fulfilling life without anything spiritual, then go for it. Every person deserves that choice. The moment you use coercion to impose your beliefs is when you no longer deserve the choice.

I still think that the act of following any rule blindly and without the slightest means of questioning is one of the biggest problems in our world. Ignorance is a disease which holds back progress tenfold.

… :D I completely agree. But I shan't go into details. :p

I think I can offer reasons why a religious mindset developed in humanity.


Young children are very good at accepting things adults tell them. If your mum tells you not to touch the fire because its hot, the scientific evidence-based way of doing the experiment yourself will probably burn your hand off. There is an evolutionary pressure for kids to accept without thinking.

The problem with this is the young inexperianced mind cannot tell between good and bad advice, it will take in everything it hears.

The willingness of children to accept Santa Clause testifis to the universal susceptibility of the childs mind to suggestion, especially by its parents, and its inability to distinguish between a comfortable fantisy and reality.

For those of you who doubt the effect you can have on a young childs mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxHBlSziBhw

Get a child of formative age and you can get them to believe anything, simply by pushing the right psychological buttons.



Second is the tendancy for people to look for agents in everything. It seems that people have evolved a way of thinking where everything has an intention. Its useful because we can think in terms of protecting ourselves from dangers.

The wind is trying to freeze me to death, I'll thwart it by wrapping up warm!
This tiger is trying to eat me, I'll run away!
The river is trying to carry me away, I need to hold to rope tightly to stop it.
The bush may be trying to hide a lion, I should be careful.

It should be clear how making everything seem agent-like is useful for early humans.

If you look at poetry and literature, it often happens that the most beautiful descriptions are those where inanimate objects become person-like, capable of having intentions.
The sun is smiling and send us warm rays. The clouds are sad and start to cry. The sea is angry today and is stormy.


From this, its easy to make the jump to a father figure that watches over us wherever we go, somebody who we can thank when we get a stroke of luck.

But we are not hunter-gatherers anymore. Yes we inhertited their genes but we now life in a modern world very different to the plains of Mesopotamia. We need to look at things in terms of evidence rather then faith. The rise of creationism, religious wars, terrorism and sectarianism clearly show why religion is undesirable in todays society.


Religions evolve in the way that cars and aircraft design evolves through the years, around the beginning there were simple religions of paganism and ancestor-worship. Hopefully it should be easy to imagine these evolving into more complex and elaborate systems like Christianity and Islam.

From: kingarabian
I wouldnt say most atheists are lost. Actually most of them know the world around them, but they are raised without a goal.

My goal, as an atheist who understands that this is my one and only chance at life, is to have the best life I possibly can.

From: kingarabian

From: CNN
If you don't believe in God, you don't believe in ultimate accountability, you don't believe in anything higher than the human (male) ego

I don't, and I do not see how that is bad.

What about the priests raping children then? Why didn't God stop them?

From: kingarabian

From: CNN
If you don't believe in God, you don't believe in ultimate accountability, you don't believe in anything higher than the human (male) ego

I don't, and I do not see how that is bad.

kingarabian is suggesting that because nonbelievers are not accountable to a god, they would do bad things and become immoral.
That is flawed because anyone can see that its worth being good because society is a nicer place when everyone is good.

Can you name one moral action that an atheist is incapable of performing or understanding?
Now, can you name an immoral action that has been done in the name of religion?

Did people not know it was wrong to murder and steal before Moses told them?

From: Zyt3x
What about the priests raping children then? Why didn't God stop them?

Oh, that doesn't apply here because those aren't Islamic people. So it doesn't matter/is fine.

From: kingarabian

If you don't believe in God, you don't believe in ultimate accountability, you don't believe in anything higher than the human (male) ego – and there's the end of your moral compass. The only reason the term "moral compass" still has any meaning whatsoever is because of all the people around you who do believe, and who do, by and large, practice what they preach.

It's like with vaccines. Enough people get them that the people who don't are also protected. Same thing. Atheists are always a minority – for a good reason. The day that changes, society will indeed collapse into anarchy & mayhem.

Hurr durr. So people who believe this is the only life we get are more likely to go around raping and killing than people who believe they will live forever? Now you'll say they won't because they'll go to hell, but as these "holy books" can be interpreted in so many ways it seems that especially with "radical islam" people seem to have gotten (or more likely been given) the idea that they're doing gods work if they blow themselves up or kill a bunch of people in some other way, and that they are heroes and will go to heaven for it..

I don't understand the logic on how someone who believes that when we die we actually die is a bigger danger than someone who thinks he will get an eternal life in paradise for flying an airplane to a building. That's obviously not what all muslims believe, and there are radical and violent people for all religions (muslims just have gotten more attention lately because of 9/11 and american media), but when we are talking about who will make society "collapse in anarchy & mayhem" I think the radical religious people who believe they will get eternal life in paradise for doing horrible things are more dangerous than atheists/agnostics etc..

E: Kind of rambly post as I had to write this in a hurry.

It made sense though, GoF. :) And thank you.

Life is much more valuable and true if you accept that all that you know about after lifes is nothing, as you can't know until you die, and this reality and this world and this life is all you can possibly know.

Think about it. :3

And I don't care if I change your ways or anything, I just haven't seen one spec of evidence that you've looked at things from my side of the argument, while I really have read a lot about the Qur'an since you posted those things.

d-d-d-double post.

I know there's no god because I've been praying to die in my sleep since I was like 5, so I figured it should have happened by now.

^ Not actual proof, because you could still die.