SRL Archive - Discussions & Debates

Holocaust denial laws


Yakman

2009-12-11 13:46:43

There exist laws in Germany and Austria which make it illegal to publicly deny the holocaust.

This completely flies in the face of freedom of expression and freedom of press.


If you're not German or Austrian, would you like those laws to be implemented in your country?
In other words, do you think you're not grown-up enough to decide this for yourself and that the central government needs to decide for you what you can and can't hear or read.



To whom do you award to right to decide which speech is harmful or who is the harmful speaker? To who would you give the task of deciding what you can hear? Who has the knowledge to decide in advance what the bad consequences might be? To whom would you give this job.

Its a well known story about the man who has to read all the pornography to decide what can be published is the man most likely to become corrupted.

Nobody has the knowledge to make the decision of which speech is harmful, and one must suspect the motives of anyone who claims that they do.



If everybody is taught at school the sensitivities of the holocaust and the final solution, about which nothing was done by America or the UK while it was going on, but lets say as compensation everyone is made to learn an official and unalterable story now. If that's the case with everybody as it more or less is, and one person gets up and says "You know what, about this holocaust I'm not even sure it happened, In fact I'm fairly certain it didn't".

That person doesn't just have a right to speak, that persons right must be given extra protection. Because what he has to say, must have taken him some effort to come up with, might contain a grain of historical truth. In any case, it might cause people to think about why do they know what they think they know.
How do I know that I know this except that I've been taught it at school and never heard anything else?
It always worth establishing first principles. Its always worth saying, what would you do if you met a member of the flat-earth society.

Come to think of it, how can I prove the earth is round?

Am I sure about the theory of evolution? I know its supposed to be true, here's someone who says there's no such thing and its all intelligent design.
How sure am I of my own views?
Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus, and the feeling that whatever you think, you're bound to be okay because you're in the majority.



Germany and Austria have clearly shown they have the courage to face their past, and lock up people for no crime other then that of thought and writing. That's a scandal.



Never forget that as well as people having the freedom to deny the holocaust, us sensible people also have the freedom to tell them bluntly and explicitly exactly what we think of them.

noidea

2009-12-11 15:08:53

I would never oppose any law that says you're not allowed to deny the holocaust.

tarajunky

2009-12-11 15:28:02

I was surprised to learn about that law several years ago. Of course, I was also surprised that Germany makes their citizens choose a state approved religious affiliation and then sends tax dollars to the churches.

Crazy stuff…

Infantry001

2009-12-11 15:28:34

However, I totally understand your argument on censorship.

I was going to argue with you until I read the last statement lol =)

Bebe

2009-12-11 18:09:49

Holocaust never happened. Thank you bye.

Yakman

2009-12-11 20:29:36

I've researched some more and I just realised its not only Germany and Austria, but these countries too.

Austria, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Spain, Switzerland

I was quite surprised to see the Netherlands and Switzerland in there.


It seems to me Americans have a different attitude to freedom of expression then many Europeans do.

You guys have the First Amendment which protects against all this nastiness and I hope I've made you appreciate it a bit more.



From: Bebe
Holocaust never happened. Thank you bye.


I'm going to exercise my freedom of speech here…

Bebe is completely ignorant. Her disgusting beliefs fly in the face of the evidence.
Bebe personally makes me sick. It seems to me she has intentionally chosen to pull the wool over her head, to put scales on her eyes. Her beliefs goes against not only the facts of history, but the spirit of history.

If you look carefully at Bebe's arguments, you'll see she got any. She has simply asserted.

However I will defend your right to say that with all my energies.


Obviously I know Bebe is joking :p :)




I want to talk to noidea now

From: noidea
I would never oppose any law that says you're not allowed to deny the holocaust.


How can you support a law that makes it a crime to even think certain thoughts?

What if one day there comes along a law that makes it illegal to join the American Republican or Democrat party. What then? Since you've already given up your freedom of expression, how could you logically argue against this new law.

Its a slippery slope. By giving up your freedom of speech you have given up something very precious to you.

Method

2009-12-11 20:36:05

Are you really trying to make the conclusion that

inability to publicly deny horrible historical event x => loss of freedom of speech entirely

???

I'd hope that a democratic country's government would have enough sense to deny said legislation if it were to arise. Otherwise, we're doomed in more ways than being limited in speech.

noidea

2009-12-11 23:56:57

From: Yakman
I want to talk to noidea now

ohai


From: Yakman
How can you support a law that makes it a crime to even think certain thoughts?

Here is your answer:
From: Yakman
There exist laws in Germany and Austria which make it illegal to publicly deny the holocaust.

You said to publicly deny the holocaust. It doesn't prevent you from thinking it, but publicly displaying your denial.




From: Yakman
What if one day there comes along a law that makes it illegal to join the American Republican or Democrat party.


That is irrelevant. In that quote, you are alluding to modern day politics. Sure, the Democratic and Republic parties were existent even during WWII [and prior], but a law would never be passed similar to the one you are describing, today. A proposal would have to go through several branches of the government, and be voted on. The Republican and Democratic parties are the two largest parties, and a law can not simply be constructed to disallow you from voting for one.


From: Yakman
What then? Since you've already given up your freedom of expression, how could you logically argue against this new law.

Once again, a law like that would never be considered.
In fact (although you probably know), but when the english colonies in the US decided to break away from England, freedom of speech in the law was singly meant for politics. It was set up for the new Democracy to prevent punishment/execution for criticising the opposing party.


I still stick by my first post.

Coh3n

2009-12-12 00:36:19

Too be quite honest, I don't think there should be such a law, but I also don't think people should deny the holocaust. Obviously, that's just my opinion, and people are free to believe what they want (well, I guess not in a lot of countries in Europe for this particular historic event).

This is a true story that I got from my Mom. Years ago, there used to be an old German couple that lived near her. They were very open about their beliefs, no matter how much criticism they received. They were strong believers that the holocaust never happened. Sure, tons of people ask them "are you nuts", but it's their choice. If it helps them sleep at night, let it be. They're not hurting anyone.

From: Yakman
Never forget that as well as people having the freedom to deny the holocaust, us sensible people also have the freedom to tell them bluntly and explicitly exactly what we think of them.

You're absolutely right, but their beliefs aren't affecting how I live, so personally, I wouldn't bother saying anything. No matter your opinion on someone else's beliefs, I think it's always better to keep those opinions to yourself. Let people believe what they want. There's no need for needless criticism.

Just my two sense,

Coh3n

Bebe

2009-12-12 03:47:17

Love you too Yakman :p

mastaraymond

2009-12-12 08:00:12

Must be me but I think that this law is completely correct. Publicly denying the Holocaust means you indirectly state that those 6 million people did not die. That means you are literally 'offending' millions of people who lost their Family etc. Of course this argument is less applicable now, but it was back when it was introduced.

Also, as time progresses we have less and less connection with the whole Holocaust. Mustn't we fear that in the future 'educated' people might actually think that it never happened?

mixster

2009-12-12 12:24:41

The problem with freedom is it isn't connected to any responsibility. It shouldn't be a right, but a privilege much like most other things in this world. Sure, I think that on the ethical reasoning it's a bad thing to prevent people saying what they want, but isn't it just as bad if you give people the right to openly offend people regarding what is considered historical fact?

If we are doing this to reduce tension, why stop there - why not make it law that scientists can't suggest alternate theories to intelligent design, as it may offend religions?

Are they maybe doing this because it is a fact, then why not make it law that religions can't preach intelligent design, as it is commonly held as false?

The difference between the two? Neither of them are certainties. A law set in place that forbids people denying gravity - why not? Well, because by denying gravity they are not obviously offending a large group of people.

How about a law forbidding all forms of racism? A great idea until, as even you pointed out (on IRC), how can you accurately judge what is offensive and what isn't? Only the extremities can be easily classed, still then when you take into consideration upbringing and the society they live in, it may not.

How about a law that makes it illegal to deny 9/11 being caused by terrorists? I mean, it must hurt people when conspiracy theories are suggested. Well, I can't see a reason why not, apart from the US's strong belief in freedom of speech and the low number of deaths compared to the holocaust.

Dan Cardin

2009-12-12 19:38:30

In America we like to pretend all of those rights. And you technically do, but if push comes to shove, such things have been brushed aside for the greater good. So while its technically free by law, but its not really free (im not talking about the particular holocaust denial thing, just things in general.) which makes it look better, but isnt.

kingarabian

2009-12-12 20:56:50

Iran's president consistently denies the Holocaust right?

ruler

2009-12-12 21:42:44

I just started reading up on this after your post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

Seems to be a big thing in the EU.

In the US, holocaust and the final solution are covered extensively when I was in Public School years ago. But then again that was before 9-11.

Today I imagine they probably talk about how evil Christopher Columbus was, rich man guilt, post-colonial guilt, environmental guilt. Allied Bombing of Dresden, US Japanese atomic bombing guilt. They probably show videos of Obama apologizing to Europe, Turkey, Middle East, South America in classes.

Today they send my sister home with a Global Warming ideology and shes only in elementary school.

Nothing changes, at that same age 15 years ago they would tell us all about how the world is running out of Oil. I am talking Library presentation to every class in the school with graphs/ videos, i only recall this because It alarmed me. They are doing the same shit to kids just a different fear.

Probably 15 years before that it was the Soviet Union and Nuclear war.

I imagine the laws against holocaust denial, no matter how they are worded like as the wikipedia say its about genocide but i doubt their are any other genocides people deny all the time. Just like how they word spending laws around here they write like 15 requirements when its well known only 1 entity matches all the requirements for funding. Its sounds like its being used as a deterrent to politicians practicing denial. I am sure it has little affect on people that teach their world views to their family/children.

Is their a risk of the removal of the law allowing a political block to reform?

However deeming something illegal does promote it.

Brings be back to a scifi book where the human race colonizes the moon then the earth is destroyed and in a few generations people deny the Earth ever existed.

josh81193

2009-12-12 22:09:04

I think it's to cheat people out of their money, is it really that big of a deal? The police of any of those countries could set up sting operations and arrest loads of people if they really wanted to, even though it would be pretty low to do so.

tarajunky

2009-12-13 00:29:12

So what is the policy on a Holocaust agnostic?

If you publicly state that you're not sure whether or not it happened because you've never researched it for yourself, is that grounds for punishment?

It's not a "denial" per se, but it could "raise questions" or "suggest" that it may not be true.

As far as I'm concerned, any person has the right and obligation to find out for themselves. They should not be punished or shunned for not having a rock solid belief in something they know little about.