SRL Archive - Senior News and General

Reflection is not working as of the update, as many of you might have noticed.
And no one is doing anything to fix it, it is dieing, as the reflection developers don't take into their hands.

Therefor, I find this change needed more then ever.


We already support reflection with a small somewhat hidden forum but atm reflection is hosted by googlecode while we all agreed on supporting it?, then I thought a good first change would be to host it right here on villavu.

Why? Simple, more organized to have everything in one place then spreading it out like crazy. Also, To have more control of it.



Then, As RM already suggested, not offically on a thread tho, That we get reflection a real forum. (A better one then the current somewhat hidden one).
With this forum, there should be a new rank.


Reflection Developer.

With the rank, comes a hidden forum, where they can talk about new reflection developers, methods, testing, sort of the same as the SRL Developer forum. Possibly a new cup, title or/and name color change.


The SVN.

Only Reflection Developers will have access, to make sure that it'll not get un-orginized again with everyone having access doing as they wish.

The current access list is rather painful to watch, as pretty much no one on that list is active. Therefor I got the idea of clearing it and only having the SRL developers that actually know something about reflection, mormonman and method to have the access at first. Then we'll add the people we feel are a good addition.

If you did have access before, then eaither you didn't do a anything or havn't done anything in ages. And if you plan to pick it up again, we'll spot you rather quickly and make sure you get the rank.

Note: Reflection developer was never a rank/title, it was just a list of people who could edit the include. Therefor, I'm not really taking anything away if this goes through.



Why is this needed?

To keep it organized and taken proper care off, with a forum and rank like SRL is. Imagine trying to developer something, being a bunch of people, and not being able to have a place to discuss with each other…

The SRL developers could just imagine developing SRL without our forum, would be one hell of a pain.

Isn't reflection broken because of everybody's updaters breaking?

Yeah, the RuneTek 5 or whatever engine broke people's updaters, a lot moved around in the client (I think Objects are now less of a pain in the pants than before for example). The reason it's been broken for so long is because Method is the only one that knows how to make the updater. Even RSBot is still down (unless it went back up in the last day or so)

It was never broken for long.

It took me 5 minutes to fix it with the hooks method have had for atleast 1-2 weeks now.

I'll fix the other stuff as time flies…

I am TileWalking as we speak :)

~RM

Nobody has the knowledge here to make updaters. I think we need more of them. Method has made a full one. I have made a partial one before. I'm not sure about everyone else.

From: Bobarkinator
Nobody has the knowledge here to make updaters. I think we need more of them. Method has made a full one. I have made a partial one before. I'm not sure about everyone else.

:redface: Method is actually faster then RsBot, so we can't complain on that matter. And don't you think reflection would fail sooner if the 1 person hook thing was that big of a problem..

I don't see why not. Why have such a great tool on our hands and keep it hidden away? We should be open about it, and should stop with the 'SRL does not officially support reflection'. N1ke's suggestions of a reflection rank along with a reflection forum (one public and one hidden) would be a good start.

+1.

*grumble grumble* damn n1ke.. *grumble grumble*

+1

Reflection deserves more attention.

From: Bobarkinator
Nobody has the knowledge here to make updaters. I think we need more of them. Method has made a full one. I have made a partial one before. I'm not sure about everyone else.

Method is working on an Open Source updater; so we can all work on it if we want.
Yakman and BenLand100 have also made updaters. So I think the knowledge would be no problem.

I'm all in for organizing Reflection; and I can only see advantages to giving it it's own sub forum on the all mighty SRL Forums. :)

EDIT: Stop the damn +1'ing?

From: Wizzup?
EDIT: Stop the damn +1'ing?

+1.

(neutral)

From: Wizzup?
Method is working on an Open Source updater; so we can all work on it if we want.
Yakman and BenLand100 have also made updaters. So I think the knowledge would be no problem.

I'm all in for organizing Reflection; and I can only see advantages to giving it it's own sub forum on the all mighty SRL Forums. :)

EDIT: Stop the damn +1'ing?

How exactly should I distribute the updater? If we're moving from Google Code to here, I presume that I probably shouldn't start a new project there.

+1


I agree and also agree with getting a new rank for it.
For the svn side of it, we should host it as an independent SVN so they it can be updated on its own when reflection hooks are updated rather than the entire SRL repository.

For a rank they could be purple names since everyone wanted purple so bad when we were making the BM. :p Any maybe the cup be cogs turning in the reflection of a mirror? That'd be cool lol. Then have a couple of devs who are proficient in reflection deving become hybrid devs to help organize it and get it taken off like it should be.

Agreed.

Anyone that disagrees post your reasons within 48 hours.

From: Method
How exactly should I distribute the updater? If we're moving from Google Code to here, I presume that I probably shouldn't start a new project there.

I think that for hosting the actual project code, google code is not a bad idea.
E: But I don't mind hosting one on villavu either.

From: Wizzup?
I think that for hosting the actual project code, google code is not a bad idea.
E: But I don't mind hosting one on villavu either.

If you don't mind, please host it on villavu.
A lot easier then having different links, a lot easier to keep track on and so on.. ;)

I am for organizing reflection, but against a hidden forum with a new rank. I am for a new subforum (something like public SVN) in the SRL members section (refl. developers could be given moderator rights).

But the reflection developers would still need a place to talk..?, alone, that is.

Make another forum for Reflection Devs and regular devs? Idk, hybrid might work, and can we hide sub forums?

Might get conffusing though..

From: nielsie95
I am for organizing reflection, but against a hidden forum with a new rank. I am for a new subforum (something like public SVN) in the SRL members section (refl. developers could be given moderator rights).

That. ^

Oh, and N1ke… Why do reflection devs need to talk alone?

Same reason SRL developers need to talk alone.

To plan things, poll stuff, work together ect..
It's hard to do this over msn. AND without the hidden forum, or a place to talk, the whole thing is worthless. It'll just end up the same way as it is now.

Imagine developing SRL without the developers forum?, hard? ERhm, Hell yeah.

From: Wizzup?


Oh, and N1ke… Why do reflection devs need to talk alone?

If you are going to "officially support" reflection then I think you would need to give the same rights to those devs as you do to the SRL devs as it is it's own include.

From: Bobarkinator
If you are going to "officially support" reflection then I think you would need to give the same rights to those devs as you do to the SRL devs as it is it's own include.

We are not going to officially support Reflection.

From: N1ke!
Same reason SRL developers need to talk alone.

To plan things, poll stuff, work together ect..
It's hard to do this over msn. AND without the hidden forum, or a place to talk, the whole thing is worthless. It'll just end up the same way as it is now.

Imagine developing SRL without the developers forum?, hard? ERhm, Hell yeah.

Plain bullshit, and you know it. Why does it have to be hidden? I don't feel a lot for a shiny "SRL Reflection Dev" rank, nor for a secret forum.

SRL Developers forum serves more purposes than just a place to discuss SRL.

E:
OK, perhaps the subforum is an "ok" idea… I'll have to ponder about it.
And Bob, SRL doesn't support reflection in the way that I really don't want it integrated in SRL. But as an extension, I think it should be supported.

From: Wizzup?
We are not going to officially support Reflection.



Plain bullshit, and you know it. Why does it have to be hidden? I don't feel a lot for a shiny "SRL Reflection Dev" rank, nor for a secret forum.

SRL Developers forum serves more purposes than just a place to discuss SRL.

E:
OK, perhaps the subforum is an "ok" idea… I'll have to ponder about it.
And Bob, SRL doesn't support reflection in the way that I really don't want it integrated in SRL. But as an extension, I think it should be supported.

We both agree on having it supported as an extension.
Without SRL, reflection is nothing.

There is already a reflection sub forum - http://www.villavu.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=205

As for now, I've only seen comments on that you don't like the rank, or the hidden (NOTE: Not secret) forum. I don't see why not to have it.
If we are going to support it as an extension then why not?


Edit: Also, saying that my post was bullshit, claims to say that everyone agreeing to this means bullshit?

I agree. I think all of these things combined could only create more activity and efficiency in reflection development.

A new rank/hidden forum/cup would encourage more people to develop reflection as well.

But, as you said yourself, reflection (if structured well) needs less developing and more updating of the hooks. And if you want a thread where only developers can post, in the worst case scenario you could close the thread so only mods (developers) can post.

I don't think the polls will be spammed, there'll also be good suggestions. And don't forget, the people who use it should have some input too.

From: nielsie95
But, as you said yourself, reflection (if structured well) needs less developing and more updating of the hooks. And if you want a thread were only developers can post, in the worst case scenario you could close the thread so only mods (developers) can post.

I don't think the polls will be spammed, there'll also be good suggestions. And don't forget, the people who use it should have some input too.

It sounds as if the SRL development forums could be opened up to the public for all the same reasons to be honest.

reflection change, and break..
When it does, a lot of stuff needs updating. (For now example).

Also bigger reflection projects could be done in this forum, such as an all around walker which could be implanted to the include itself. If new hooks are found they can be used to make a new include, which is a lot easier with a forum.
When we are to bring a new member into the reflection team, there needs to be a way to poll? Not the current count by msn bullshit.

I never said the forum had to be big, or fancy.. just a little place..

(Still nothing against the usergroup, Reflection Developer?)

From: JAD
It sounds as if the SRL development forums could be opened up to the public for all the same reasons to be honest.

That's true, but we agreed on not making it public because people posted things there thinking that they were posting in a private section.

From: N1ke!
reflection change, and break..
When it does, a lot of stuff needs updating. (For now example).

Also bigger reflection projects could be done in this forum, such as an all around walker which could be implanted to the include itself. If new hooks are found they can be used to make a new include, which is a lot easier with a forum.
When we are to bring a new member into the reflection team, there needs to be a way to poll? Not the current count by msn bullshit.

I never said the forum had to be big, or fancy.. just a little place..

(Still nothing against the usergroup, Reflection Developer?)

The projects could just as well be posted/developed in a public forum. I agree with you though, the polling could become a problem.

From: Wizzup?
I can only see advantages to giving it it's own sub forum on the all mighty SRL Forums. :)

From: Wizzup?
OK, perhaps the subforum is an "ok" idea… I'll have to ponder about it.

So DO you or DON'T you support this idea?

Sure, being open with development is a good thing, but having it completely exposed to everyone else isn't a good idea imo. If we want new ideas to be discussed and developed without all the interruptions from the public we need a separate forum.

If we want Reflection to be successful we need to support it at SRL. A new rank and a new subforum given to a person encourages them to continue developing as they feel an obligation to as part of their job. They also get some recognition from the community and therefore are happier to develop and keep things updated.

EDIT: Oh wow, I got ninja'd like 5 times.

I just want to add in, that last night when Wizzup told me that he agreed on it..
Me and Method made up a somewhat plan.

http://pii.pastebin.com/m4d74acd

I still don't agree on how this could hurt…

From: ZephyrsFury
So DO you or DON'T you support this idea?

Sure, being open with development is a good thing, but having it completely exposed to everyone else isn't a good idea imo. If we want new ideas to be discussed and developed without all the interruptions from the public we need a separate forum.

If we want Reflection to be successful we need to support it at SRL. A new rank and a new subforum given to a person encourages them to continue developing as they feel an obligation to as part of their job. They also get some recognition from the community and therefore are happier to develop and keep things updated.

EDIT: Oh wow, I got ninja'd like 5 times.

You know just as I do that you won't be "interrupted".
Perhaps Reflection should be supported a bit more, but certainly not like N1ke's suggestions. The only "support" Reflection get's in his idea, is a private forum for 8 members. (Private Scripts, wtf?)
E: If anyone is to get a purple name, then it should be me. :D

From: N1ke!
reflection change, and break..
When it does, a lot of stuff needs updating. (For now example).

Also bigger reflection projects could be done in this forum, such as an all around walker which could be implanted to the include itself. If new hooks are found they can be used to make a new include, which is a lot easier with a forum.
When we are to bring a new member into the reflection team, there needs to be a way to poll? Not the current count by msn bullshit.

I never said the forum had to be big, or fancy.. just a little place..

(Still nothing against the usergroup, Reflection Developer?)

I can think of countless things that won't hurt. Reflection is just one of them.

The fact is that a "SRL Reflection Developer" rank doesn't really add anything to your idea, except for epenis-size++ for the few ones that seem to be developers of Reflection… Judging from this:

Reflection (Dev one)
- Inside news [SubTitle - Developer notes…]
- Reflection commits [SubTitle - Discuss your commits here…]
- Research & Development [SubTitle - Future development ect..]
- Private scripts (Pretty please?) [SubTitle - For the lucky few]
- Reflection Bugs [SubTitle - A place to point out bugs, and possible fixes]
- …had requested to join [SubTitle - New Aplliances…]

What the…?
A hidden forum for bugs?
Private Scripts???

If you want this, I suggest you go and make your own forum.

From: N1ke!
I just want to add in, that last night when Wizzup told me that he agreed on it..
Me and Method made up a somewhat plan.

http://pii.pastebin.com/m4d74acd

I still don't agree on how this could hurt…

When Wizzup said he agreed…?
I merely agreed to create a subforum of some kind, (public!), plus a repository for hosting.

So how much work does Reflection really need except for updating hooks?
I don't see what other hard work there is to do.


Once again I strongly agree with nielsie.

We are talking about 8 people here? Only 1 that's not SSRL. You could even use SSRL to poll new members ;)

It could hurt in the way that it can cause confusion. It is, in my opinion, just not a good idea to have 2 official includes hosted with separate (or not so separate) developers.

Without SRL, reflection is nothing.

Well, infact not, which poses some problems…

How about converting the unused Members reflection forum into the "dev" one?

From: JAD
It sounds as if the SRL development forums could be opened up to the public for all the same reasons to be honest.

As I have previously mentioned, the SRL Developers forum differs a lot.
SRL Developers forum is a place that used to be the place to place your ideas; where there was no such thing as SSRL. (I would nearly say Good old times…)
The Developers forum is also actively used to share accounts, so we can solve randoms, and other stuff. A lot of the ideas and generally just threads there are not to be public. It's like opening up all polls in SSRL, and the entire SSRL subforum.

I do see the general point of the people who use Reflection that is should be more `supported'; but over an over the same decision is taken. SRL will not support Reflection in a way that it will be incorporated in SRL (the library) at some point. Yet, every time, over and over the same discussion is raised.

I can see the use of a more detailed and expanded subforum about and for Reflection; but this rank + "hidden/private" forum is really bothering me.
To put it plainly, it looks like a rip-off of the real Developers forum. The rank seems utterly useless to me, as I have pointed out before. I could go on, but I think it's better if I stop here.

~Wizz.

SRL's official support to reflection would also obviously turn attention away from SRL itself and drive on the development of reflection (which pretty much equals generic functions)…

I concur that the private forum really isn't needed nor the ranks. Some recognition would be nice but shouldn't be required. People will know who the reflection devs are its all over in the repository. And yes if voting is required for some higher purpose say a new reflection dev to have SVN privilages then just poll it in SSRL. Also the way I handled it was if a person came to me that wanted privilages I first asked to see their worked, discussed it with the other major leaders (Method etc.) to see if they should be allowed.

Of course I agree more development would happen if people acquired titles for developing reflection. In any case we will still come back to the problem: "if SRL dies then reflection goes with it."

I strongly support moving the reflection forum out of smart's subforum and have development etc. subforums placed in it though. This will increase its activity and hopefully some movement of more organized developing will come about.

Edit:
@n3s I was thinking that too.

Okay, since I only posted to ease N1ke's harassment of myself, I will post my real opinions.

Reflection Rank:
Not a good idea, not a bad. I see this as a way to push people towards developing which is far from a bad idea. But, I think it also encourages them for the wrong reasons.
While we may see this as an opportunity, others will see it as an easy way of gaining rank and fame. In my opinion a rank is not necessary. I do believe the cup is a good idea though. It shows some recognition for the many hours of work it takes to work on that include and why not return the favour a bit?
(I like the gears in the mirror idea btw)

Reflection Dev Forums
Maybe.. I don't think it needs things like scripts etc. But possibly a place to post new and interesting ideas without having people jumping in the air freaking out about how good/bad things are. This is why we have the SRL Developers forums, why not have the Reflection Dev forum. Just keep it rather minimalistic, keep the core essentials etc.

Reflection Public Forums
YES. I think this needs to happen, move them out of the hole they currently reside in and place them into plain view. People should know whats going on and deserve to. Create a Public SvN section etc as well. Its useful, and it does let us spot more talent.

New Reflection Developers
Poll them in SSRL, if the hidden forums are created, do it that way. I think that reflection developers should be nominated rather than applied for. Especially when most people don't know that Developers is actually an application rather than a nomination. (I had no idea until after-the-fact).

Anyways, for those who see this as tl;dr…

Rank: Nah
Cup: Yeah, its nice incentive
Reflection Dev Forums: On the fence, good but is it necessary?
Reflection Forum Move: YES

Just my… large amount of text..

~n2

Nava did it very nicely. Agree with everything he said or

@Nava
+1 :sasmokin:

I've been thinking (It happens :eek: ).

The rank itself was to represent the reflection developers, which can be solved with a cup just as nicely. So scratch the Rank.

Next for the hidden forums, I'm still not totally convinced that not having one is a 100% good idea. However, having a sub-forum in SRL Members where we could discuss? Or possibly even higher, here at SSRL. If not, then I rest my case and I'll just live with the JR.members opinions.

Hopefully, the cup, and a move of reflection can be made?
The sub-forum in SRL or SSRL I could live without.

Then again, what's the use of the cup? :rolleyes:

From: Wizzup?
Then again, what's the use of the cup? :rolleyes:

The point of this cup is the same as any other cup's point - to recognize a user for their contribution to some aspect of SRL (scripting, creating random events, making good posts, helping out, etc.).

Is this cup opposed simply because the idea behind it (reflection) isn't officially supported by SRL?

From: Wizzup?
Then again, what's the use of the cup? :rolleyes:

I agree. It's not needed nor the hidden forum. If you want a place to talk with other developers why not use the SRL members one? Or make a forum that is locked to anyone except the devs(and the staff). So there you can see what developers are planning or discussing about :) Just my opinion.

From: Method
Is this cup opposed simply because the idea behind it (reflection) isn't officially supported by SRL?

One could state this, yes. I don't think we should exclude the idea of a Reflection cup - but it definitely shouldn't belong to the core of this idea.

Also, Nielsie and I have generally gotten a plan ready now. So there's no need for further arguing. :p

Thanks for actively working on this and formulating a plan. It's nice to see a quick response to this.

From: Wizzup?
One could state this, yes. I don't think we should exclude the idea of a Reflection cup - but it definitely shouldn't belong to the core of this idea.

Also, Nielsie and I have generally gotten a plan ready now. So there's no need for further arguing. :p

I'd rather like to see this plan…

Cup -
Yes, for the reasons method mentioned. All kinds of developers like to epenis++ anyway, otherwise there's no real need to have an orangy name and a cup is there? We could just use a sticky for a list of names.

Forums -
I believe that one category with two subforums would suffice; One for general (which would also include polls) and one for any script related things; No need to start big and wide. However, I do find the idea of using SSRL forums impractical, as not all SSRL are Ref Devs. Also, people do need a place where to discuss their ideas, unflooded by others.
Considering that a place to poll new ref devs would be needed, it would be a good idea to have that part hidden; However, any scripting related thing should be viewable. Or all should be hidden.

Reflection SVN Public -
No. Instead, we could add a and [Ref] prefix to the current Public SVN Forums. I believe this would be a much more practical idea.

Finally, I do agree that a reform to most of the smart/ref forums is needed.

~RM

From: Rasta Magician

Reflection SVN Public -
No. Instead, we could add a and [Ref] prefix to the current Public SVN Forums. I believe this would be a much more practical idea.

No. It would cause way too much clutter.

Just bad idea…

From: Rasta Magician
Reflection SVN Public -
No. Instead, we could add a and [Ref] prefix to the current Public SVN Forums. I believe this would be a much more practical idea.

If we have the [Ref] prefix where will the other prefix for the script go? (Fighting, WCing etc.) Its a good idea but would also make the other prefix's pointless for reflection scripts. I think as long as people put in their title the script is reflection based its fine w/o.

We can always add things as it comes along. Moving ref forum is the first step.

From: Narcle
If we have the [Ref] prefix where will the other prefix for the script go? (Fighting, WCing etc.) Its a good idea but would also make the other prefix's pointless for reflection scripts. I think as long as people put in their title the script is reflection based its fine w/o.

We can always add things as it comes along. Moving ref forum is the first step.

I don't think he mentioned tagging scripts with a reflection prefix.

From: Method
I don't think he mentioned tagging scripts with a reflection prefix.

Indeed you are right, it was just intended for the Public SVN forums.

~RM

From: Rasta Magician
I'd rather like to see this plan…

Cup -
Yes, for the reasons method mentioned. All kinds of developers like to epenis++ anyway, otherwise there's no real need to have an orangy name and a cup is there? We could just use a sticky for a list of names.

Forums -
I believe that one category with two subforums would suffice; One for general (which would also include polls) and one for any script related things; No need to start big and wide. However, I do find the idea of using SSRL forums impractical, as not all SSRL are Ref Devs. Also, people do need a place where to discuss their ideas, unflooded by others.
Considering that a place to poll new ref devs would be needed, it wouldn't be a good idea to have that part hidden; However, any scripting related thing should be viewable. Or all should be hidden.

Reflection SVN Public -
No. Instead, we could add a and [Ref] prefix to the current Public SVN Forums. I believe this would be a much more practical idea.

Finally, I do agree that a reform to most of the smart/ref forums is needed.

~RM

You're basically just naming N1ked old idea all over again (except for no public(???)); and we just decided it wasn't practical.

A Reflection Developer is not the same as a SRL Developer.
Stop comparing them!

I'm in for Reflection tags, and possibly mixing them with normal scripts, but I still believe Reflection as a whole needs a more organized Discussion forum, with a section for development. (This doesn't imply that it will be private.)

I'll get to it tomorrow. I'll move the forums out of the SMART section, add a cup and one hidden forum.

Any (concrete) ideas for the cup?

Gears in the mirror ;)

Where can I find that one? :hypocrite:

sudo apt-get install gimp

From: Narcle
If we have the [Ref] prefix where will the other prefix for the script go? (Fighting, WCing etc.) Its a good idea but would also make the other prefix's pointless for reflection scripts. I think as long as people put in their title the script is reflection based its fine w/o.

We can always add things as it comes along. Moving ref forum is the first step.

Sorry to hijack this but imo get rid of skill prefixes, that's what the subforums are for. Replace them with /[Ref]

From: lordsaturn
Sorry to hijack this but imo get rid of skill prefixes, that's what the subforums are for. Replace them with /[Ref]

the subforums are going to disappear.

~RM

From: Nava2
Gears in the mirror ;)

…

From: Wizzup?
A Reflection Developer is not the same as a SRL Developer.
Stop comparing them!)

From: Wizzup?
…

I just thought it was a cool idea :)

I think a mirror with a glinting reflection would look cool for a cup in cartoon style.

No cup means no forum and I can't find a good cup =\.

Best I could find.

I can resize and make it transparent if you like.

From: Nava2

Best I could find.

I can resize and make it transparent if you like.

I was still hoping for something 3d-ish. I can probably make it in the next few days.

From: Wizzup?
I was still hoping for something 3d-ish. I can probably make it in the next few days.

Ya on a slight angle… probably thinking the same thing I am.

I think someone posted a good mirror in that big cup suggestions topic we had a while back

how about gears in the mirror, but the gears suddenly break and take a long time to reform themselves.
:p