SRL Archive - Discussions & Debates

This happened on #srl today.

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Not the biggest botnet ever, a very small one actually (some might say pathetically shitty) but it got me thinking.


These bots are almost certainly running on a windows machine. Its not only flooding IRC channels they can do, but ddosing websites and sending spam email.

ZDNet, the technology newspaper, said in 2004 that 70% of spam email came from botnet-infected windows machines. source.
In 2007, slashdot claimed that 25% of all computers were connected to a botnet. It soberly suggests that the botnet battle is already lost. sourcesource.
Just last year The Register magazine reckoned that 85% of all spam email comes from just six botnets! source.


The highly publicsed Conficker botnet was apparently powerful enough to force entire countries off the internet. Some even said it could disrupt google.

PCPro magazine is one of many that agree with me and place the blame squarly at the feet of Microsoft. source.


Think about it, how can there be a stable internet if criminals can shut down virtually any site they like? How can there be a stable internet if criminals have this kind of terrible power?

The related community moparisthebest has had many problems with ddosing, I very much doubt its users thank Bill Gates.



If it wasnt for the Windows OS and its inherent insecurity, non of this would happen.




"It is only because Windows is so widespread" is a possible retort, these people claim that it is Window's popularity, not its insecurity which is the reason it is targetted by bot-herders. This is simply incorrect when you consider that Linux is a leader in the server market. Server machines which mostly run Linux are much more powerful then desktop machines which mostly run Windows. It is estimated that one server is equivalent to between 150 and 200 desktop machines.
If I was a bot-herder, I'd much rather control a server then a desktop. But bot-herders cant crack Linux in the numbers needed to make a good botnet, but they can crack Windows.


"Windows insecurity only affects Windows users, I use Linux or Apple, Why should I care?"
Spam affects everyone who has an email address. DDOS affects everyone who owns or uses a website.




Many have argued that windows causes anything but win, they think it should be renamed Woedows to better explain what it does. I for one agree with them.

I publicly call for the Windows operating system to be made illegal and everyone forced to change to Linux or Apple. It is a matter of international security!

Apple sucks.

Everything else about that story is true though :D

Also, inb4 people go "If everyone uses Linux, they would write over 9000 viruses for it!11". Wrong. The whole principle behind Linux is security. You can not just click on an .exe and then be infected. You must TRY (really hard, I may add) to get a virus on Linux.

Idiots who download sexipr0n.exe are a threat to the internet. I have never been, and probably never will be, part of a botnet, because I use my brain. It's more the Windows users' fault than the OS itself IMO.

From: bullzeye95
Idiots who download sexipr0n.exe are a threat to the internet. I have never been, and probably never will be, part of a botnet, because I use my brain. It's more the Windows users' fault than the OS itself IMO.

This. Some threats are unavoidable, but mostly it is a PEBCAK.

From: bullzeye95
Idiots who download sexipr0n.exe are a threat to the internet. I have never been, and probably never will be, part of a botnet, because I use my brain. It's more the Windows users' fault than the OS itself IMO.

+1

I've been running XP for years and never ran into a problem like that.

Some are quite sneaky, bullzeye, you forget that most viruses are not people simply running a file they think is safe. They usually get in other ways.

The thing is, you do not KNOW if you are compromised under Windows. No botnet master will ever make you think you are infected. Your computer will operate the same while infected. In fact, you can easily hide a program from the task manager. How unsecure is that, that you must rely on 3rd-party programs to kill programs? Often, you even need to erase a bad file through a Linux LiveCD because it is so nested into your Woe, that you do not even know where it is saved.

From: bullzeye95
Idiots who download sexipr0n.exe are a threat to the internet. I have never been, and probably never will be, part of a botnet, because I use my brain. It's more the Windows users' fault than the OS itself IMO.

No, that's why you send me virus infected files nub! :p

I blame the communists, but that might be my personal opinion.

Oh, and I'm one of those idiots who got his computer infected by viruses a lot of times.

Like I said, most viruses use a remote exploit to get it. Windows fails.

From: Markus
No, that's why you send me virus infected files nub! :p

I blame Raym0nd :'<

EDIT: I traced it back to Glary Utilities, which I got from DOWNLOAD.COM. Fail much? Apparently I gave it to Ray too :\

From: bullzeye95
Idiots who download sexipr0n.exe are a threat to the internet. I have never been, and probably never will be, part of a botnet, because I use my brain. It's more the Windows users' fault than the OS itself IMO.

From: Torrent of Flame
This. Some threats are unavoidable, but mostly it is a PEBCAK.

That is simply wrong.

Many many botnets spread by vunerabilities in the windows operating system, things like buffer overflows.
Conficker, for instance could infect machines using this method. The user only has to be connected to the internet for this to work. Is this the users fault?

Conficker infected universities, government computers, large business and military machines. Do you seriously think those people got it by clicking porn.exe.
sourcesourcesource

In one case that could be funny if it wasnt so sad, the french airforce computers were infected and planes were forced to be grounded all because of Conficker.source

Conficker even managed to infect the UK houses of parlement!source



I'll say it again. These are professionals, not 12 year olds watching porn.



It would be too easy for there to appear a buffer overflow exploit in Internet Explorer that allowed infection. Somebody puts a script on their facebook page and everyone who visits gets infected. Is it your fault you visited facebook?

bullzeye95, you could be infected but you just dont know it. Bots like this dont draw attention to themselves.

Oh, another thing you must look at: most botnet owners are malicious. They will abuse your computer as soon as they want. Often, I have seen some make their nodes download and share illegal files, such as child pornography. How much would it suck to have the Police break down your door one day due to your ISP receiving a complaint about you sharing CP, then they see the files that YOU NEVER EVEN KNEW ABOUT on your HDD? Enjoy your 50 years-to-life in Prison, new-found paedophile. Or, if the owner is not that cruel, he will still abuse you to attack websites. The website masters will almost always track the IPs of who attack, and send reports to their ISP. Then your ISP gets word that you are attacking sites, and they cut off your Internets.

It is also sucky to end up on Spamhaus, and therefor not being able to send mail nor access a lot of sites, simply because you are a zombie, and you do not even know it. :norris:

I have been beaten.

I do not know enough about OS' to formulate any agrument. At all. I have been defeated ;)

Kudos Yakman.

From: IRC.
<yakman> We must have strong minds, ready to accept facts as they are.
<yakman> from his signature
<yakman> +1 i say

:)

true enough, Woedows indeed it is. Not enough software made for Linux though. To me Wine is not a viable excuse. Wine seems to be like Linux users arent quite happy with their OS if they have to import all of the Woedows programs.

From: Dan Cardin
true enough, Woedows indeed it is. Not enough software made for Linux though. To me Wine is not a viable excuse. Wine seems to be like Linux users arent quite happy with their OS if they have to import all of the Woedows programs.

The point is that you don't install all your Windows applications in WINE, but use the FOSS alternatives. Linux is not Windows. Don't expect it to be.

From: bullzeye95
Idiots who download sexipr0n.exe are a threat to the internet. I have never been, and probably never will be, part of a botnet, because I use my brain. It's more the Windows users' fault than the OS itself IMO.

I could not agree more. There are so many simple things you can do; For instance I run Windoze as a limited user, perform regular security scans, including one that compares the files that are there now to a known "clean" snapshot. Linux has a similar ability I believe.

Conficker infected universities, government computers, large business and military machines. Do you seriously think those people got it by clicking porn.exe.

Okay seriously Yakman, what planet are living on? Bored government employees surfing porn? Hell yes. Happens on a daily basis (I know I've worked with some of them). And horny college students surfing porn - Hard to imagine! Seriously there is a reason the porn industry makes way more $$$ than all of hollywood combined.

One thing I've always wondered is the true percentages. # infected / # total installations worldwide for each OS. I suspect the "other" would suddenly be much much higher. Thats the problem with any statistics they can be skewed any which way you want. Guess that's why politician's love polls.

It all comes down to the age old ease of use vs security issue. Ease of use usually wins 120% of the time.

From: Bixby Sayz
Okay seriously Yakman, what planet are living on? Bored government employees surfing porn? Hell yes. Happens on a daily basis (I know I've worked with some of them). And horny college students surfing porn - Hard to imagine! Seriously there is a reason the porn industry makes way more $$$ than all of hollywood combined.

>:/ Not every porn site would've given you the Conficker virus. They've probably been going to the same sites for ages, and I know for a fact that some have never had viruses. And if they did, then they're probably viruses made by idiots that would be easily fixed by a restart (if it's a school/government computer, they probably have some sort of deep freeze).

From: ian.
(if it's a school/government computer, they probably have some sort of deep freeze).

Again, unfortunately that is not the case. If that was the case, most of the numbers quoted in the original post would be lower. That is the case in some places, but not all. There is a constant usability/security/budget tug of war going on (in outside industry as well as government). Those who make the decisions often least understand the consequences of those decisions.

Well hm. I don't wanna argue because I'm distracted, but I agree that the numbers are probably wrong, but I'm 100% sure that not all of the infected computers were from downloading stupid things.

Oh sorry misread your response. Thought you were ruling out that any were the result of dumb users. And don't forgot once one idjit manages to infect their machine inside your network, it is free to attempt to propagate throughout your network.

http://www.ntinternals.org/

Always gives me a nice technical read. :)

From: Bixby Sayz
I could not agree more. There are so many simple things you can do; For instance I run Windoze as a limited user, perform regular security scans, including one that compares the files that are there now to a known "clean" snapshot. Linux has a similar ability I believe.

I agree that the user can do things to help, but theres some things the layman simply cannot protect against. How do you protect against buffer overflows in some windows service process. Or vunerabilities in the html rendering engine.
The responsibility lies with Microsoft to fix things as they turn up. However very often it takes months or years for patches to appear. I've posted some links as evidence.

http://blogs.channelinsider.com/secure_channel/content/windows_security/activex_patch_a_year_late_an_apology_short.html
http://www.securecomputing.net.au/News/149913,microsoft-responds-to-criticism-over-late-fix.aspx
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/operating_systems/microsoft_security_patch_slows_xp_systems.html
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/25/microsoft_emergency_patches/


It is obvious to me that Microsoft is incapable of maintaining a stable system. (Why would they be? Its not part of their business model, they lose money doing it)
This is why I call for governments to step in and regulate otherwise we all will suffer.

From: Bixby Sayz

Okay seriously Yakman, what planet are living on? Bored government employees surfing porn? Hell yes. Happens on a daily basis (I know I've worked with some of them). And horny college students surfing porn - Hard to imagine! Seriously there is a reason the porn industry makes way more $$$ than all of hollywood combined.

While you are correct you've missed my point.
That is that Conficker was not spread to those organisations I mentioned by porn. The sources I posted say they either spread by USB drives or by the buffer overflow which Conficker used.

From: Bixby Sayz

One thing I've always wondered is the true percentages. # infected / # total installations worldwide for each OS. I suspect the "other" would suddenly be much much higher. Thats the problem with any statistics they can be skewed any which way you want. Guess that's why politician's love polls.

Oh what a cop-out.
You're trying to cast doubt on my figures with absolutely no evidence. You've equated politicans polls with experts estimates.
The sources I posted often explain how they reach their numbers.

This website has a technical discussion on how they reached the number 8 million for the number of conficker infected machines.
http://www.f-secure.com/weblog/archives/00001584.html
(Downadup is another name for Conficker)

From: Bixby Sayz

It all comes down to the age old ease of use vs security issue. Ease of use usually wins 120% of the time.

It may win for now, but in the long run it could destroy the internet.
To take an extream example, slavery is easier then paid workers, but our moral zeitgeist now forbids it.

Windows may be easier, but for mostly technical reasons (moral reason too, giving power to criminals is bad) it should be regulated or made illegal by law.




But thats all beside the point.
Many of you have the idea that "As long as I dont get a worm on my machine, it doesnt matter. Ill let the idiots get infected, who cares". This is completely incorrect.
Infected "idiots" or laymen give so much power to criminal bot herders, they can use that power to fill up your email inbox, to ddos any website they like, to do a whole range of things that threaten the internet itself.

From: Yakman
But thats all beside the point.
Many of you have the idea that "As long as I dont get a worm on my machine, it doesnt matter. Ill let the idiots get infected, who cares". This is completely incorrect.
Infected "idiots" or laymen give so much power to criminal bot herders, they can use that power to fill up your email inbox, to ddos any website they like, to do a whole range of things that threaten the internet itself.

I could not agree with you more. But you are missing a hugely important point:

You are talking about a symptom, not the cause of the problem. The underlying problem: People want the "Easy Button". The symptom (effect) of that is the world wide dominance of Windows. Which opens up the opportunity for malicious people to mass exploit vulnerabilities in Windows.

It does bother me when the zealots lie/are misinformed and state that Linux has no vulnerabilities. Excuse me? No OS is perfect. Can we at least agree on that?

Bottom line: (Yes I'm being a bit sarcastic) People are idiots. Windows is easier to use the Linux. Linux zealots turn Windows users off making the problem worse. Windows is here to stay. Deal with it.

BTW you misunderstood me a bit on the statistics. I was not trying to explain them away. I was musing outloud that I have always been curious what the percentage of TOTAL windows installations are infected, what percentage of TOTAL linux installations are infected, etc. I was hoping someone might know of such a study and point me to it.

<ponder>Wonder what I can say next to get the zealots frothing at the mouth. It's not like it takes much…</ponder>

Edit: Thank you btw, I haven't had this much fun in a while.

From: Bixby Sayz
You are talking about a symptom, not the cause of the problem. The underlying problem: People want the "Easy Button". The symptom (effect) of that is the world wide dominance of Windows. Which opens up the opportunity for malicious people to mass exploit vulnerabilities in Windows.

I disagree with you there. Windows is not really an "Easy Button". If I gave a person who's either 8 or has never used a computer before Windows Vista and K/Ubuntu, I'm sure they'd be able to do more with their Linux machine within the first hour, day, and month. People choose Windows because of the brand name, and because they're told that Apple's products are too expensive (though I personally believe the hardware lives up to the price). It's hard convincing someone that there's something better than Windows if they believe Windows to part of thier computer and unremovable :<

I've deleted your double-post if thats alright.

From: Bixby Sayz
It does bother me when the zealots lie/are misinformed and state that Linux has no vulnerabilities. Excuse me? No OS is perfect. Can we at least agree on that?

Who has said Linux has no vulnerabilities? link me to their post on this thread.

What I am claiming (and I have evidence to back up) is that Linux is diverse enough, and has few enough vulnerabilities such that if it were to get popular in the desktop market, worms would not be a problem.



I really fail to see how I'm a zealot.

I personally actually don't believe Windows is here to stay. At least not in it's current shape/state. And Windows 7 will make no difference.

From: Wizzup?
The point is that you don't install all your Windows applications in WINE, but use the FOSS alternatives. Linux is not Windows. Don't expect it to be.

The point of my post being that there is sometimes if not often programs/games that have no alternative that is sufficient. You can indeed sometimes find alternatives in Linux, but an alternative is almost never what I would be looking for.

From: Dan Cardin
The point of my post being that there is sometimes if not often programs/games that have no alternative that is sufficient. You can indeed sometimes find alternatives in Linux, but an alternative is almost never what I would be looking for.

All the games I used to play work fine in WINE. I tested every one of them.

From: Dan Cardin
The point of my post being that there is sometimes if not often programs/games that have no alternative that is sufficient. You can indeed sometimes find alternatives in Linux, but an alternative is almost never what I would be looking for.

:/ That's also pretty irrelevant to the thread. It's completely true (I think), but I don't think you should chose an OS based on what games you can play on it.. Get an Xbox/PS3/whatever you want.

From: Yakman
Who has said Linux has no vulnerabilities? link me to their post on this thread.

By admitting this, you are saying that Linux should be regulated also, am I right?

From: ian.
:/ That's also pretty irrelevant to the thread. It's completely true (I think), but I don't think you should chose an OS based on what games you can play on it.. Get an Xbox/PS3/whatever you want.

It should certainly be a factor. If you like gaming (as I do, with a mouse only), then why is choosing the OS that fully supports better games* an "invalid reason"?

*Since ATI sucks at Linux drivers, I can't seem to get any Windows game to work right…

From: bullzeye95
By admitting this, you are saying that Linux should be regulated also, am I right?

run that by me again I didnt quite get it.

From: bullzeye95
It should certainly be a factor. If you like gaming (as I do, with a mouse only), then why is choosing the OS that fully supports better games* an "invalid reason"?

*Since ATI sucks at Linux drivers, I can't seem to get any Windows game to work right…

It should be a factor, but I'd much rather choose an OS that's faster, better, and safer, but can't play every game on the market, than one that's slow, unsafe, and lame (:D), but can play every game. The games will be compatible some time. :)

From: Yakman
run that by me again I didnt quite get it.

Earlier you said something to the effect of: because Windows has so many vulnerabilities, governments should regulate or ban it. Since you also admitted that Linux has vulnerabilities, are you not suggesting that it, too, should be regulated?

EDIT: Missed your post, ian.

From: ian.
It should be a factor, but I'd much rather choose an OS that's faster, better, and safer, but can't play every game on the market, than one that's slow, unsafe, and lame (:D), but can play every game. The games will be compatible some time. :)

Linux is not (in the cases I've seen) faster than Windows when it comes to gaming, which is usually the only thing I need as much speed as possible on. You didn't really specify what you meant by "better" and "lame," so I'll skip those. In terms of safety, I agree that Linux is safer overall than Windows. However, I have done more harm to my computer through Linux than a virus has ever come close to doing to my computer. I know, "you're an idiot," but does being an idiot not lead to the same thing on any OS you use: breaking something? On Linux, you have too much power, and new users really don't know what they're doing, and end up breaking something. In Windows, you download pr0n.exe, which breaks something. Same main cause, same main effect, amirite?

From: Wizzup?
All the games I used to play work fine in WINE. I tested every one of them.

that was my point.

From: ian.
:/ That's also pretty irrelevant to the thread. It's completely true (I think), but I don't think you should chose an OS based on what games you can play on it.. Get an Xbox/PS3/whatever you want.

i did say programs/games did i not?

From: bullzeye95
By admitting this, you are saying that Linux should be regulated also, am I right?

I'm with Yakman on this…Huh?

Before I go any further, guys calm down I was yanking yer chain a bit cuz I was bored at work, in silly mood, and you are sooo easy to get going. :)

I personally actually don't believe Windows is here to stay. At least not in it's current shape/state. And Windows 7 will make no difference.

Actually I'm on the fence on this. Vista sucks and 7 doesn't seem much better. But those that like it like just as fervently as those that like linux. will be interesting to see if Micro$oft has made a misstep again and whether it actually results in any gains for it's competitors.

People choose Windows because of the brand name, and because they're told that Apple's products are too expensive (though I personally believe the hardware lives up to the price). It's hard convincing someone that there's something better than Windows if they believe Windows to part of thier computer and unremovable :<

Amen, brother, Amen. In the business world (where MS makes billions) the managers that decide such things have no clue how things actually work technically. It is all marketing and hype and fear of the unknown. You would not believe how ingrained Open Source = EVIL is into their consciousness. I've ran into this wall over and over again throughout my career. (And admittedly many techs couldn't communicate their way out of wet paper bag, so that doesn't help matters much)

This is why I call for governments to step in and regulate otherwise we all will suffer.

Um, hello? Governments are the WORST offenders for stuck on the Windoze bandwagon. Although that seems to be shifting overseas, but they are always light years ahead of us anyway.

The point of my post being that there is sometimes if not often programs/games that have no alternative that is sufficient. You can indeed sometimes find alternatives in Linux, but an alternative is almost never what I would be looking for.

Sorry Wizzup? I'm with Dan on this one. When I first tried Linux years ago one of my first questions was "How do play my existing library of music/video encoded in windows media format?" The answer I got: Use ogg you f**king moron, wma format sucks. That wasn't my question. And is typical of the response you get on linux forums.

I've recently run into another nasty one: I switch between Windoze and Linux depending on where I am/what machine I am on. I don't have a choice in this. If I edit a contact while logged into msn on windows, the alternatives on linux don't see the change. The FOSS alternatives often do not provide full functionality.

I stand by my stance: Free does not justify lack of functionality/stability: "What do you expect, its free?" is a COP OUT. I hear this phrase again and again and again from various sources to the point I get nauseous when I hear it.

And why is not valid for me to ask "Why don't the competing applications get together and come up with one that actually has full functionality?" I get shouted down whenever I ask this question.

Last post on this by me (I think). Its one of those topics you can go around and around and around without any resolution. And to fully comment on all the points raised so far my post would be like 10 pages long.

Remind me to someday tell you privately the true horror story of what really goes on behind the scenes in government and big business. Windoze isn't going away anytime soon. Trust me on this.

I didn't mean faster for games. :) I meant faster for opening FireFox/browsing the Internet/blah blah blah. I don't mean to say Windows is terrible, I think that for what it does, it does it fine, but it has too many flaws, in my mind. I'm not going to try to convert you to Linux or anything, because what you prefer is what you prefer. :) I never had any problems with Windows, I just prefer my new OS over it is all. :)

From: bullzeye95
*Since ATI sucks at Linux drivers, I can't seem to get any Windows game to work right…

I have no problems with the ATI FOSS drivers. I am soon getting a new ATI card, (4670 HD), and that may give problems, but I'll keep you informed. I actually keep up to date with X drivers news a lot, so if you can tell me what card you have, I may be able to help.

Bixby: About "typical" response: I've never seen a response like that on Ubuntu Forums, or generally any others.
Lots of FOSS Applications have full functionality.

I am interested in the Horror Story in Businesses with Windows - please make a seperate thread about it? (Or PM)

From: ian.
I didn't mean faster for games. :) I meant faster for opening FireFox/browsing the Internet/blah blah blah. I don't mean to say Windows is terrible, I think that for what it does, it does it fine, but it has too many flaws, in my mind. I'm not going to try to convert you to Linux or anything, because what you prefer is what you prefer. :) I never had any problems with Windows, I just prefer my new OS over it is all. :)

I use both Windows and Linux already, so I can't really be converted.
I think FireFox is faster on Windows. It always feels a bit sluggish on Linux, maybe because of the compiler?

The only two reasons I use Windows more than Linux are, 1. I play games (mostly CS:S) a lot, and 2. It crashes a lot, I think because of the graphics card drivers.

EDIT: @Wizzup, it may just be the card I have, or maybe it's the whole Radeon series, I have no idea, but neither the proprietary nor the FOSS drivers will get rid of the crashes.. but please do tell me if you have any problems and if you fix them.

http://windows7sins.org/

From: bullzeye95
*Since ATI sucks at Linux drivers, I can't seem to get any Windows game to work right…

[OFFTOPIC]ATI Just sucks at drivers period. I used to be a huge ATI fan, but I got sick and tired of "yet another buggy driver release" time after time. If their windows drivers are that bad I can't image what their linux drivers are like. Some vendors have been very slow to adopt linux.[/OFFTOPIC]

From: Bixby Sayz
I've recently run into another nasty one: I switch between Windoze and Linux depending on where I am/what machine I am on. I don't have a choice in this. If I edit a contact while logged into msn on windows, the alternatives on linux don't see the change. The FOSS alternatives often do not provide full functionality.

I stand by my stance: Free does not justify lack of functionality/stability: "What do you expect, its free?" is a COP OUT. I hear this phrase again and again and again from various sources to the point I get nauseous when I hear it.

I agree on your second point, but not the first. Developers are pretty much reinventing the wheel multiple times due to closed sauce people not sharing. Look at original applications designed for Linux without trying to be copies and those with openly available sauce - compiz-fusion is a stunning piece of visually stuff (I fell in love with it today) that has superb functionality and is very stable to my knowledge (though it does have a collection of less supported plugins that may reduce its stability).

And why is not valid for me to ask "Why don't the competing applications get together and come up with one that actually has full functionality?" I get shouted down whenever I ask this question.

Why do not all of SRL come together and make a super amazing script? With SRL, you get the includes and with Linux the OS and basic apps that go with it, which work well. For every reason you can think of why SRL doesn't go for a super duper script, it should also be valid for your question.

Not only that, but diversity in programs is what makes Linux so stable - the more diverse the usage, the less effective bug abusing is. If the standard MSN had a bug in it that allowed email addresses and passwords to be stolen, think of the tens of millions of email accounts would be compromised due to them all using one application. At least other IM software is around to give MSN some competition (and you can see how much that leads to MSN's furthering compared to other areas).

From: Dan Cardin
The point of my post being that there is sometimes if not often programs/games that have no alternative that is sufficient. You can indeed sometimes find alternatives in Linux, but an alternative is almost never what I would be looking for.

Kind of links heavily to top of post. Linux is not a Woedows clone - programmers are providing alternatives to try and make life easier, but they can't be perfect when they're trying to reinvent it.

From: mixster
I agree on your second point, but not the first. Developers are pretty much reinventing the wheel multiple times due to closed sauce people not sharing. Look at original applications designed for Linux without trying to be copies and those with openly available sauce - compiz-fusion is a stunning piece of visually stuff (I fell in love with it today) that has superb functionality and is very stable to my knowledge (though it does have a collection of less supported plugins that may reduce its stability).

just saying, reinventing the wheel can sometimes be good.

From: mixster
Kind of links heavily to top of post. Linux is not a Woedows clone - programmers are providing alternatives to try and make life easier, but they can't be perfect when they're trying to reinvent it.

Not what i meant. my alternatives bit was saying just because IE is a firefox alternative doesnt mean it does as good of a job or does it in a way that i like. I dont want clones of programs. I want the actual programs just where the programmers make the linux linux version too. But since they dont for whatever reason, It would leave me with the choice of settling for a clone, or Wine. Which is what i started with.

If companies found more pressure to release Linux versions of their applications, then there would be official Linux applications instead of clones - the Linux market is growing so they can't ignore us forever. Some things probably won't be on Linux until/if Woedows collapses, but other stuff may be.

I have to agree with mixster, and everyone else here talking common sense :p. My choice is ubuntu, i have been able to play games/surf the web literally do anything i normally do on windows. Linux is safer and more secure to use than a windows computer, so i choose linux. I can do everything i do on windows with a better interface, better security, and its free!! < – Nothing gets better than that lol.

Plus, if windows wasn't as popular or THE most used operating system, most companies would be releasing applications/ hardware that are 100% linux compatible. Windows is raping the market, but not for long….

Somehow i doubt it. Aswell as you all acting like Windows will die soon. It wont. There will always be a market for it imo. Them getting paid for their software should mean that they put more effort into safety and security. While it may not be perfect, if it were seen that Windows was starting to lose, then they would surely become not suck, rather than perish.

The revolution of the internet has allowed Linux to flourish and it is building up more momentum. As the public at large become more aware and just a bit more tech savvy, they learn that the only reason to keep MS is for gaming.

Between Open Office, Pidgin and Firefox, you have the average users use of a computer - bit of general work and internet surfing with MSN, Yahoo and a lot more.

Possibly include Evolution/mail and a media player as well, for which there are multiple and good applications for both and you have the average office workers computer usage.

Possibly include a compiler and/or IDE for C or Java and interpreters for Python, Perl, Ruby or one of the other major languages and you have the computer use of a common programmer - it even has FreePascal & Lazarus to compete with Delphi and while a little unstable at times and somewhat lacking some of the newer Delphi stuff, it is pretty good.

Like I said, it's really only gaming and for that you get the latest Wine releases and a lot of games will run through it fine or with minimal bugs, which is pretty impressive when you think that Woedows takes up a couple of gb's while Wine only takes a few hundred mb.

FPC and Lazarus don't compete with Delphi. Delphi is obsolete already.

Indeedio, but syntax and general functions/procedures are common enough to easily work for both Lazarus and Delphi, with that being my main point :)