SRL Archive - Senior News and General

I am sorry, but I feel the need to say something.

It seems like us SSRL members votes count for less than they should. Two examples of this would be with N1ke! and Richard. Both were around 50/50 poll results, and they got in, even though the percentages aren't supposed to be anywhere near there (Like 75 to 25 at least normally). For the record, I voted yes for both N1ke! and Richard for SSRL, so I am not upset about them getting here. I just do not think that it's fair that if about 50% of the people here do not think that a nominee is yet ready for SSRL that they be let in just because the admins/mods really wanted them to. N1ke! was polled recently, and then polled again like a week later even though the result was conclusive and not enough time was allotted for people's minds to change. Even though the yes percentages were not enough for him to get in, the staff must have thought he was ready, so they just let him in. I think that everyone should have waited a month, re-polled N1ke!, and then I am sure he would have got in. On the most recent poll, the people who originally voted no said "can we stop polling N1ke! for a little bit? Give us a little time to watch him and rethink our decision". He could have still gotten Dev status without SSRL right away (since they are 2 completely different groups now, not one leading to the other.) and waited a month or whatever for another poll to let him in.

Richard was let in on a 10 to 9 vote count I believe. Only polled once. He was let in even though the poll results showed that he shouldn't have. If Richard were polled in a month after that, some more people would have probably come around also after watching him for a little bit and he could have gotten in. Instead, he was let in even though about 50% of the people here did not think that he was ready yet.

Shuttleu had a 54% 46% vote count when I first nominated him. He did not get in though. Although according to the poll results of the last two, shouldn't this have been enough to let him in? I do not understand how he did not get in if we were to stay consistent with the last 2 decisions.


All I am saying is that this can be a true democracy only if decisions are based on poll results. There needs to be a consistency based on poll percentages. Once again, this is not a complaint against Richard and N1ke! being in SSRL (<3 you both), this is about the democratic process of the SSRL polls here. Maybe we could discuss a percentage right now and stick to it?

I agree 100%.

I was one of the people to turn n1ke away because he was polled to close to each other. If you would have polled him now, a month later? I would have said yes in his next poll. I do believe that if certain people want someone in here then they get in as long as other agree with them even if it isn't over majority.

This is a small and elite group of trusted and awesome members. If we want to keep it that way the majority need to want the next person here (75-80%+ possibly). If only 50% of us want someone here then that isn't good enough since we are such a small and elite group. Especially in some of those cases that JAD mentioned those polls all had 15-20 votes, pretty much all active SSRL. So if those polls aren't overwhelming towards yes and they are 50% they should not get in.

Just my thoughts.

People are flowing here way too fast nowadays (Nothing wrong with any of the applicants themselves), I think it should be like it used to be e.g you are kind of
when you get into SSRL…

N1ke got in through dev-ship. There's nothing undemocratic about it if he's voted in at a higher level.

So basically, I was let in on a 10-9 vote, so people obviously aren't too desperate to have me here. And Runescapian's poll is at 10-1 and its been going on for about 50 days?! Wow inconsistent much?

Richard how did you know that your poll did not got on for 50 days?


I agree with Hypersecret about 75%, I think a three-quarters majority sounds good.

Also, I'd like to bring up how important a secret ballot is, we shouldnt use open polls that show who voted for what.

Also, the flexible time limit for polls makes me uneasy. What do you think of making polls be open for 21 days (say) and then after that time, you either let the guy in, or close the thread. There wouldnt be any leaving it for longer, or letting the guy in early.
Something like, whoever posts the thread says "I've posted the thread on 21:00 GMT 1st January 2010, the votes will be counted on 21:00 GMT 22nd January 2010"

From: Yakman
Richard how did you know that your poll did not got on for 50 days?

Well I honestly don't know. But don't you think 10-1 is quite clear?

N1ke got in through Dev, and Devs get Auto-SSRL because both Dev + Mod > SSRL.

~RM

It's only democratic if enough people vote. Rather than setting percentages or time limits, seeing more people vote so that a reasonable answer can be determined would make more sense to me.

whats the current voter turnout?

Well, it varies - usually 10 to 15. Comparing that to the total number of dev's upwards as well as SSRL and it seems like quite a low turnout. I suppose if you were to only count recently active, then it may seem more reasonable, but without going through them all, it isn't easy to accurately see how many are active for me.

I like yakmans idea, slap a time limit on the polls like SRL Member apps.

From: JAD
I just do not think that it's fair that if about 50% of the people here do not think that a nominee is yet ready for SSRL that they be let in just because the admins/mods really wanted them to

As said above, he was voted in by his peers not chosen by the staff.

I agree with all of this.

I think that voting needs to be taken into consideration.

Also, why don't we just set the close date for polls? Might just be a pain to remember for awhile.

From: Rasta Magician
N1ke got in through Dev, and Devs get Auto-SSRL because both Dev + Mod > SSRL.

~RM

If your gonna say that then, shouldn't he have to pass in as SSRL first then before he can get Developer? You guys wanted him as a developer more than we thought he was fit for SSRL (no offense n1ke), so give him Dev and not SSRL.

That is like a Mayor of a city running for president because he was seen not fit to be the Governor of the State. Governors of State run for the President not the Mayor of cities. You just don't skip ranks when one doesn't see you to be quite fit enough yet.

I know that is a huge scale but the same concept if you are saying SSRL is below Developer and gets auto-SSRL with developer then he should be wanted in SSRL vastly before he is given developer or make it so that Developer doesn't get auto-SSRL.

From: mixster
N1ke got in through dev-ship. There's nothing undemocratic about it if he's voted in at a higher level.

From: Rasta Magician
N1ke got in through Dev, and Devs get Auto-SSRL because both Dev + Mod > SSRL.

~RM

Can you really say that Dev is greater then mod now? When we started this group it was definitely that way, but now I don't think that you can compare the two. It is the SRL Developers job to develop the SRL include by solving randoms, fixing/creating new functions/procedures…etc. It is an SSRL members job to make important decisions facing the community and help out the staff (mainly through polls) such as suggesting cups, nominating people for auto SRL memberization, and giving out infractions and warnings to help keep spammers out of Jr. members, stop insulting of other members/cursing…etc.

I just don't think that today you can clearly state that one is greater than the other. It's just like saying Dev > Mod or Mod > Dev; apples and oranges.

From: Richard
So basically, I was let in on a 10-9 vote, so people obviously aren't too desperate to have me here. And Runescapian's poll is at 10-1 and its been going on for about 50 days?! Wow inconsistent much?

Like I said Richard, I am sure after a month (like now), most people would have voted yes. The poll was actually going perfect (5-0) until I brought up the inconsistencies in nominations. I mentioned that Nava2 and LordSaturn both had been recently been denied from SSRL, even though their SCAR scripting ability was higher than yours (no offense, I'll admit, they are WAY better than me), and they were also mature, helpful…etc. Why would we put you in over them? Once I brought that up, some people agreed with that and changed their votes. I still don't see how LordSaturn and Nava2 did not get in here, but the main reason it was so close was comparing your poll to theirs, not the normal standards (which you definitely would have gotten in by).

From: mixster
It's only democratic if enough people vote. Rather than setting percentages or time limits, seeing more people vote so that a reasonable answer can be determined would make more sense to me.

Probably about half of SSRL are active (so like 18), 4 devs, 5 mods, and 3 admins (that sound about right?). So that makes about 30 people. If two thirds of all the active people here voted each time, then we should be getting 20 votes in each poll. We are here to make decisions on cup promotions/member promotions, and choosing other members for SSRL, so why can't 2/3 of the active members take 5 minutes to look through the polls even just once a week.

From: HyperSecret
If your gonna say that then, shouldn't he have to pass in as SSRL first then before he can get Developer? You guys wanted him as a developer more than we thought he was fit for SSRL (no offense n1ke), so give him Dev and not SSRL.

That is like a Mayor of a city running for president because he was seen not fit to be the Governor of the State. Governors of State run for the President not the Mayor of cities. You just don't skip ranks when one doesn't see you to be quite fit enough yet.

I know that is a huge scale but the same concept if you are saying SSRL is below Developer and gets auto-SSRL with developer then he should be wanted in SSRL vastly before he is given developer or make it so that Developer doesn't get auto-SSRL.

errr… Nava2, LordSaturn and likely other had the exact same ride. Why was that not a huge drama back then?


And JAD, i don't think Dev was ever grater than mod or the other way around, as most mods would be devs, but not all devs would be mods. Yet someone who is just mod can't access dev forums and therefore you can't say mod > dev.

If someone is resposible and able enough to edit the include, i'd say they most definitely are able to make decisions for a few cups.

~RM

Devs and mods have just about equal rights, but just in different areas.

In cases like this one (really close polls) it are the admins who take the decisions.

From: Rasta Magician
errr… Nava2, LordSaturn and likely other had the exact same ride. Why was that not a huge drama back then?


And JAD, i don't think Dev was ever grater than mod or the other way around, as most mods would be devs, but not all devs would be mods. Yet someone who is just mod can't access dev forums and therefore you can't say mod > dev.

If someone is resposible and able enough to edit the include, i'd say they most definitely are able to make decisions for a few cups.

~RM

That is why this poll was made. It has happened more than just once now and someone felt like it should be brought to attention. JAD and I talked on MSN and thought it was a big enough issue to be brought up now. And as far as I know Nava2 and LordSaturn weren't as big of issues with some people as some of the recent people. Nava2 and LordSaturn we thought just could use a little growth here or there.

From: Markus
In cases like this one (really close polls) it are the admins who take the decisions.

But that is what we are trying to say, it should NOT be the admins/staff decision. If it is a close poll and admins/staff don't like that person and a majority of SSRL Members do, it is a NO. If is is a close poll and the admins/staff like the person and a majority of SSRL don't, its a YES. Admins might as well make the decision then on who is and who isn't SSRL…no reason for a poll.

Just a reminder: staff is still higher ranked than SSRL.

From: Markus
Just a reminder: staff is still higher ranked than SSRL.

Was there any doubt that this was the case?

From: Markus
Just a reminder: staff is still higher ranked than SSRL.

I am aware of this. Should higher ranked people's votes count as more though? Why not just allow staff to vote twice on each app and us only once then?

@RM, LordSaturn was SSRL before he was Dev I am about 95% sure. And I really have no idea why Nava was denied in the first place. It's not a "big drama" that Richard and N1ke! got SSRL without majority being ready yet, it is just unfair. Shuttleu should be in here then right now.

From: JAD
I am aware of this. Should higher ranked people's votes count as more though? Why not just allow staff to vote twice on each app and us only once then?

@RM, LordSaturn was SSRL before he was Dev I am about 95% sure. And I really have no idea why Nava was denied in the first place. It's not a "big drama" that Richard and N1ke! got SSRL without majority being ready yet, it is just unfair. Shuttleu should be in here then right now.

Shuttleu is a different case.

From: Wizzup?
Shuttleu is a different case.

How is Shuttleu any different?

If you are referring to him and lard master, this wasn't even an issue in the first poll and nobody had even brought it to attention. It wasn't until the second poll that Richard, who wasn't even here at the time of the "incident", brought it up. Shuttleu was not let in during the first poll even though it had similar results to Richard and N1ke!'s and no one had accused him of being at fault for the incident yet.

From: JAD
How is Shuttleu any different?

If you are referring to him and lard master, this wasn't even an issue in the first poll and nobody had even brought it to attention. It wasn't until the second poll that Richard, who wasn't even here at the time of the "incident", brought it up. Shuttleu was not let in during the first poll even though it had similar results to Richard and N1ke!'s and no one had accused him of being at fault for the incident yet.

Shuttleu was different. He was put awaybecause he is imature etc. Then the accusations came up.

By the way, I created a similar thread to this in developers. I'm going to move it here for ssrl to see.

Also going to close it, just post here.
http://www.villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47702

I never for a second thought SSRL was here to make the decisions and instead provide input and feedback for mods and admins to help them make a decision. I understand that admins and mods have been making these decisions and will continue making these decisions - if they wanted me to make that decision, then they would give me the same powers as they, but they have not so the best I can do is give them my point of view.

From: mixster
I never for a second thought SSRL was here to make the decisions and instead provide input and feedback for mods and admins to help them make a decision. I understand that admins and mods have been making these decisions and will continue making these decisions - if they wanted me to make that decision, then they would give me the same powers as they, but they have not so the best I can do is give them my point of view.

This, imo.

I'm amazed at all the drama I've created…
I might aswell give my 2 cents, as this is partly my fault…

If there's a 50/50 vote, than why shouldn't a admin decide?, After all
they're admins for a reason.. not becuase of their stupidity(sarcasm).
I'm more than certain that they can make a right decision when it comes to 50/50,
as they are admins…

On the auto-SSRL part when you gain developer, I always thought SSRL was inbetween
member and dev/mod?. So being developer without being SSRL would'nt make sense.
And if you can't trust our dear developers in granding me developer then
are you not trusting their judgement?, or is it me gaining SSRL without being
accept by a poll in SSRL?.
If so, then the SRL members could make drama each time someone got instant
member-ized as they didn't accept him, someone else did.

And again, I'm sorry for the "drama" I've created..

May as well point out that N1ke's dev poll was 12-1.

From: Wizzup?
May as well point out that N1ke's dev poll was 12-1.

Game. No reason to bitch about it, normally you become SSRL from where you move to Dev, but naturally if you go to Dev straight on, especially which such a nice poll, there is no reason not to give SSRL aswell…

From: N1ke!
I'm amazed at all the drama I've created…
I might aswell give my 2 cents, as this is partly my fault…

If there's a 50/50 vote, than why shouldn't a admin decide?, After all
they're admins for a reason.. not becuase of their stupidity(sarcasm).
I'm more than certain that they can make a right decision when it comes to 50/50,
as they are admins…

On the auto-SSRL part when you gain developer, I always thought SSRL was inbetween
member and dev/mod?. So being developer without being SSRL would'nt make sense.
And if you can't trust our dear developers in granding me developer then
are you not trusting their judgement?, or is it me gaining SSRL without being
accept by a poll in SSRL?.
If so, then the SRL members could make drama each time someone got instant
member-ized as they didn't accept him, someone else did.

And again, I'm sorry for the "drama" I've created..

There is no reason for you to be sorry. Not your fault.

:)



I also believed SSRL was a way to have opinions and have a say.

From: mixster
I never for a second thought SSRL was here to make the decisions and instead provide input and feedback for mods and admins to help them make a decision. I understand that admins and mods have been making these decisions and will continue making these decisions - if they wanted me to make that decision, then they would give me the same powers as they, but they have not so the best I can do is give them my point of view.

We aren't saying anything different either and it is not like we are argueing over something that they decided to do to the forum or anything like that. We are simply argueing the point that why do some people get in on 50/50 and others don't, just because a staff likes/knows the one more than the other? And if we have a split feedback on accepting someone to what is 'our' group of the elite and they accept that person without having overwhelming support, then aren't they just making the decision regardless of our feedback?

btw, mixster most of your feedback has some type of sexually twisted response :rolleyes:, j/k

From: N1ke!
I'm amazed at all the drama I've created…
I might aswell give my 2 cents, as this is partly my fault…

If there's a 50/50 vote, than why shouldn't a admin decide?, After all
they're admins for a reason.. not becuase of their stupidity(sarcasm).
I'm more than certain that they can make a right decision when it comes to 50/50,
as they are admins…

On the auto-SSRL part when you gain developer, I always thought SSRL was inbetween
member and dev/mod?. So being developer without being SSRL would'nt make sense.
And if you can't trust our dear developers in granding me developer then
are you not trusting their judgement?, or is it me gaining SSRL without being
accept by a poll in SSRL?.
If so, then the SRL members could make drama each time someone got instant
member-ized as they didn't accept him, someone else did.

And again, I'm sorry for the "drama" I've created..

It is nothing against you and no 'drama' it is simply a discussion. We aren't questioning their judgement at all, at least I completely trust their judgement. It is just the way it was done, all of a sudden after a big controversy in polls you were accepted after a pretty split vote, IIRC.

From: Wizzup?
May as well point out that N1ke's dev poll was 12-1.

May as well point out that N1ke's SSRL poll was close to split…

I would have voted him Dev in a heart beat also, imo there was no question about wether or not his scripting skills were ready for SSRL and Dev standards. There were other issues and you know that.


All I am saying is it was kind of annoying that we were very undecided on this matter and yet it seems like no one really gave a SHIT about what we thought here in SSRL and just brought someone in cause they felt like it. I have nothing against N1ke, I would have voted yes on his next app, even though I voted no on his first two. He was just polled to close to each other the first two times.

The fact of the matter is the SRL Developers voted overwhelming yes to N1ke becoming a developer. SSRL is a step between SRL Members and Devs and Mods and therefore N1ke must also become SSRL.

The opinion of SSRL members is welcomed and considered but ultimately the admins will decide whether to grant someone permission to view a forum. This situation is rather similar to that of the SRL members apps. Someone's application may be rejected by SRL members but the SSRL can still nominate for auto-memberisation.

From: HyperSecret
We aren't saying anything different either and it is not like we are argueing over something that they decided to do to the forum or anything like that. We are simply argueing the point that why do some people get in on 50/50 and others don't, just because a staff likes/knows the one more than the other? And if we have a split feedback on accepting someone to what is 'our' group of the elite and they accept that person without having overwhelming support, then aren't they just making the decision regardless of our feedback?

btw, mixster most of your feedback has some type of sexually twisted response :rolleyes:, j/k

Well, you are arguing against my point. An admin is the person who interprets the results of a poll and uses them as part of their evaluation before making a decision, but the polls aren't the sole reason. Just as we have ours, devs, mods and admins have their own and, to put it bluntly, their decisions are worth more than ours.

Also, penis.

From: mixster
Just as we have ours, devs, mods and admins have their own and, to put it bluntly, their decisions are worth more than ours.

Also, penis.

I know their decisions are worth more than ours on this forum.

From: Nava2
Shuttleu was different. He was put awaybecause he is imature etc. Then the accusations came up.

It isn't 100% agreed upon that Shuttleu is immature; that is why he was about a 50 50 too. I really am not trying to create drama guys, and I don't know where you are getting that word from. It's just a discussion…

If we want to keep who gets in here fair, we really should decide on a set percentage (65% yes? 75%?) and after a few weeks, if they have enough yes/no ratio, they get in. If the admins/mods think that their opinion should count for more than ours on the matter of who gets SSRL, then they should be able to vote twice.

Why can't we do that?

Voting twice wouldn't really solve this "issue", though. Sure, their votes might weigh more, but what really matters is that they have the final say. If you'd like an analogy I guess you could equate SSRL to advisors and the staff to the people in charge. We may help guide their decision and offer new insights, but ultimately they have the final say.

From: N1ke!
I'm amazed at all the drama I've created…

Sounds like a joint effort between the 2 of us to me…

From: JAD
It isn't 100% agreed upon that Shuttleu is immature; that is why he was about a 50 50 too. I really am not trying to create drama guys, and I don't know where you are getting that word from. It's just a discussion…

Nothing was concluded about the Shuttleu and lardmaster case, but I believe lardmaster to be more trustworthy, as he obviously care much more about defending the fact he is to be trustworthy, while Shuttleu seemed almost relieved to have escaped bans.


I think that all staff should have a set of rules and stick by them, no exceptions. For example, with the whole iroki/manfromczech incident, instead of instantly banning him from SRL once again, you let him back in, but without ever being able to gain a higher position. I know you may say that he did what he did with randoms and everything to prove his was truly sorry, but how do we know he wouldn't just regain SRL Membership (or climb even higher) and do that same thing again. This is the same with the HeyHey321 thing. I'm sorry if this may piss off staff, but don't be so forgiving. Sorry.

The Iroki & etc case has been discussed a million times, and i have no difficulties whatsoever agreeing with what fawk said about it.

"Why ban him and have him come back again after a different name and regain status, while we can just de-rank and keep an eye on him? This way we know what he's up to, otherwise we're in the dark" –> not an exact quote.

And you call these polls "unfair". As far as i've seen, no one was ever brough in with an overwhelming amount of nos compared to yes, nor has anyone ever been denied with a clearly positive poll.

The ones on the edge are really up to the admins' decisions. No admin felt strongly enough about bringing Shuttleu in, and therefore they didn't.

Also, this case blew over with n1ke's poll. What you have to understand is that the SSRL poll was irrelevant in this case, as it was up in devs that he was voted in. N1ke did not get ssrl, he got dev, which has ssrl included into it.

Therefore the case between n1ke and shuttleu is imcomparable.

Finally, some say that if he's good enough for dev the person should've been in ssrl for long. But how can they, when people don't think about that when voting?

There have been a few discussions on WHAT is ssrl.
A place between members and Dev + Mod. What does that mean?

All mods need to be mature, active, imparcial, etc? to get the position.
All devs need to be mature, active, good scripters, etc? to get the position.

Notice what coincides? Mature, active.

Or better, should we perhaps go an look in JAD's thread for "what should we look for in future ssrls" ?

From: JAD

# A good attitude/nice personality.

# Help the community whenever they can.

# Great scripting abilities.

# Some good tutorials (Just a bonus).

# Some longtivity to make sure they know a lot about the forums.

# Good activity in this forums

# A pretty good post count. I know post count isn't important, but that's how people get to know you and that's how you help people of this community.

# Have at least 1 cup.

# Be liked, or at least not hated by a lot of people from this community.

# Help people 1 on 1 over msn, and help newer people fix there scripts.

Now have a look at that list and tell me 3 good reasons for n1ke's poll to have been so even?

To finalize, it is logical that devs get ssrl. As has been said, devs and mods have about the same level of influence, just over different areas. But a dev still has the responsibility of updating the include, making sure they don't screw it up, as it would affect all SRLer's. They also have the responsibility of modding the Public SVN forums, meaning that they will very likely spot the next scripters/masters/aristocrat/dev there, making them a very good asset when nominating people for cups.

Adding to that, if you are able to handle all those resposibilities, you should also be able to handle the responsibilities of ssrl. And don't forget that the devs actually share quite a few things here with you guys.

~RM

From: Markus
In cases like this one (really close polls) it are the admins who take the decisions.

Then the admins should stfu and gtfo.


EDIT: SSRL is a cirlce-jerk to make people feel wanted.

From: Rasta Magician
And you call these polls "unfair". As far as i've seen, no one was ever brough in with an overwhelming amount of nos compared to yes, nor has anyone ever been denied with a clearly positive poll.

Is an overwhelming amount of no's around 50%?

The ones on the edge are really up to the admins' decisions. No admin felt strongly enough about bringing Shuttleu in, and therefore they didn't.

From: nielsie95
Yes from me.

From: WT-Fakawi
Shut = ok. Yes.

From: Wizzup?
I won't vote, but he already has 6 no's.

Wizzup? didn't vote because 6 no's is usually too many no's to get in. There were no serious objections in this poll though.

Finally, some say that if he's good enough for dev the person should've been in ssrl for long. But how can they, when people don't think about that when voting?

There have been a few discussions on WHAT is ssrl.
A place between members and Dev + Mod. What does that mean?

All mods need to be mature, active, imparcial, etc? to get the position.
All devs need to be mature, active, good scripters, etc? to get the position.

Notice what coincides? Mature, active.

Or better, should we perhaps go an look in JAD's thread for "what should we look for in future ssrls" ?

Like I said, I voted yes for both N1ke! and Richard. I have no idea why people here are so strict. The main reason I am confused is because No admin had objections to Shuttleu, he had about the same percentages as some people who have gotten in, but he is still SRL member.

Now have a look at that list and tell me 3 good reasons for n1ke's poll to have been so even?

I couldn't, or else I wouldn't have voted no.




Anyways, I see why Dev gets auto SSRL now. The only thing I am still confused about is why Shuttleu isn't in here still because nobody has given me a reason that was true yet.

I'm done supposedly "creating drama" though.