SRL Archive - Discussions & Debates

A while back I was watching this advert, advertising this "emergency contraception", and it got me thinking, is it technically contraception if the child has already been conceived?

I believe the second that a child is conceived, that killing it is murder, but what do other people think?

I don't think it's murder because the child can't think, see, hear, etc.

Yes but it would turn into a fully breathing, thinking, hearing, seeing human.

Here's something else interesting: In early Christian times, you were able to have an abortion up to 80 days after the child is conceived, from the point when it is "ensouled" (the point where it gains a soul), for boys this is 40 days, for girls 80 days.

2 things wrong wit that, back in those days, they couldn't tell gender, and why twice as long for girls, quite sexist…

From: Richard
Yes but it would turn into a fully breathing, thinking, hearing, seeing human.

Here's something else interesting: In early Christian times, you were able to have an abortion up to 80 days after the child is conceived, from the point when it is "ensouled" (the point where it gains a soul), for boys this is 40 days, for girls 80 days.

2 things wrong wit that, back in those days, they couldn't tell gender, and why twice as long for girls, quite sexist…

But there are billions of humans, if they let everyone of them live then there would be loads more, and i think that if there was no contraception the parents might not bring it up well.

If abortion is murder at the stage were it can't think/hear and so on, then guys, we're all going to hell.
Or just stop fapping?
Your choice, really ;)

From: Richard
Yes but it would turn into a fully breathing, thinking, hearing, seeing human.

So would one of the sperm cells if it wasn't intercepted by a condom. (If the timing is right, that is…)
So would any egg that a women loses during her period.

There are lots of movements regarding this matter.
Pro-life - People who think life is first.
Pro-choice - Its the choice of the mother.

In the U.K laws regard that a fetus is only considered a child after 24 weeks - when the baby is considered to survive on it's own. Of course prior to your point I believe that it should be the mothers choice, but abortion should be used if It harms the mother in any way (emotionally or physically).

From: NaumanAkhlaQ
There are lots of movements regarding this matter.
Pro-life - People who think life is first.
Pro-choice - Its the choice of the mother.

In the U.K laws regard that a fetus is only considered a child after 24 weeks - when the baby is considered to survive on it's own. Of course prior to your point I believe that it should be the mothers choice, but abortion should be used if It harms the mother in any way (emotionally or physically).

Pro-life is a Christian movement that uses the bible to back up its idea. Pro-choice use there own ideas (they aren't anywhere near as big).

Damn this RS exam is rubbing off on me.

for me, the issue of abortion is but a subissue of women's rights.

If we take the example of the USA, in the time of conservatives being in power in certain states, the laws of those states have gradually improved the rights of fetuses and gradually reduced the rights of women.


I would hazard a guess that in the conservative heartland of America, women are seen as factories for creating children, and the child is more important then the woman.

see this copypastia for more details

From: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/oct/27/health.genderissues

Most states now allow abortion only up to 13 weeks. Others compel clinics to be equipped as if they were fully-fledged hospitals, making it expensive for them to remain in operation, or have restricted access to chemically induced abortions. Some states have imposed mandatory waiting periods. Some have laws that require women under the age of 18 to get written parental assent, or appear before a judge to argue for an exemption. They also make it illegal for minors to seek an abortion in another state. In some states, women are required to undergo an information session during which they will be warned about the possible psychological damage they could suffer if they have an abortion, or told that the foetus might suffer pain. And in many US states, women have to pay for abortions themselves; most jurisdictions now prohibit insurance cover.

The statue of liberty must be weeping.

Wizzup, a sperm and an egg are potential for life, but an embryo or even foetus ARE life. They have diploid cells, not haploid cells like the gamates, so they are technically life.

I dont think it is murder if you use emergency contraception because it is just like 10 or 20 cells, but when it starts to look like a child, it is a child.

I'm Pro-Life, by the way.

If it's legal for abortion, and illegal to kill humans, I'm confused.

Edit: Technically, at that time, the baby is part of the women. So in a sense, she is only asking for surgery to remove a part of her, a large organ.

From: mrpickle
If it's legal for abortion, and illegal to kill humans, I'm confused.

Edit: Technically, at that time, the baby is part of the women. So in a sense, she is only asking for surgery to remove a part of her, a large organ.

It will not be an organ, not and organ system, but an organism. It has a brain, it is structured like a human.

From: Richard
It will not be an organ, not and organ system, but an organism. It has a brain, it is structured like a human.

it has a brain which is not capable of doing anything, it has a nervious system which is not captable of feeling pain.

(up until about 30 weeks of pregnancy)

then how about we remove the "a large organ" part? =D. I dunno how to refer to it.

From: Richard
It will not be an organ, not and organ system, but an organism. It has a brain, it is structured like a human.

So it's just a big human shaped parasite…

I'm not pro-choice or pro-life, but simply pro-"killing/removing"-fetuses
I find it to be much more simple

even if it is only 1 cell it is still a living organism

~shut

From: Yakman
it has a brain which is not capable of doing anything, it has a nervious system which is not captable of feeling pain.

(up until about 30 weeks of pregnancy)

From: Shuttleu
even if it is only 1 cell it is still a living organism

~shut

True definition of an organism:

a living thing that has (or can develop) the ability to act or function independently

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

EDIT: Sorry yakman, not sure why it quoted yours…

From: Torrent of Flame
Wizzup, a sperm and an egg are potential for life, but an embryo or even foetus ARE life. They have diploid cells, not haploid cells like the gamates, so they are technically life.

Yes, but do they actually function? Are they more than just cells relying on someone else?

I dont think it is murder if you use emergency contraception because it is just like 10 or 20 cells, but when it starts to look like a child, it is a child.

Which is worse though, a child born into a hellish world, ruining both theirs and the mothers life, or saving someone's life based on the stem cells harvested?

[Pro-Choice]

From: Richard
True definition of an organism:



wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

EDIT: Sorry yakman, not sure why it quoted yours…

but it can develop the function to act dependantly

~shut

I dont feel sorry for Killing flies, or fly larvas, which is an organism, and have developed or can develop the function to act independently. I killed them because they are a nuisance to me.

So I am pro-choice. Why would we want to keep something, or go through the trouble of ensuring that something's safety, if we feel that something is a nuisance?

im stuck in between pro-choice and pro-life
i cant really decide whether it is cruel to kill something that could have a chance to have a good life or whether its better to kill it as it can cause problems
but i think abortion should be a last resort

~shut

An embryo might be an living organism, but is it self-aware? can it think? feel?

We kill animals all the time and not care about it because they are not logical beings like humans. So why is it so wrong to kill someone that is not even aware of its own existence.

Thats just my two cents on this subject. Please don't flame lol.

From: run_itsa_charlie
An embryo might be an living organism, but is it self-aware? can it think? feel?

We kill animals all the time and not care about it because they are not logical beings like humans. So why is it so wrong to kill someone that is not even aware of its own existence.

Thats just my two cents on this subject. Please don't flame lol.

lolwut?

Anyway on topic, I believe abortion is fine as long as the brain has not developed enough.

But then again I believe in freedom so.

From: Capricorn
lolwut?

Anyway on topic, I believe abortion is fine as long as the brain has not developed enough.

But then again I believe in freedom so.

I was talking about abortion.

Its fine to abort a baby because its not "alive" in the sense that its a logical and thinking individual. I compared an unborn child to an animal because they both are not exactly logical nor self-aware.

From: run_itsa_charlie
I was talking about abortion.

Its fine to abort a baby because its not "alive" in the sense that its a logical and thinking individual. I compared an unborn child to an animal because they both are not exactly logical nor self-aware.

…

The fact that you can justify killing a animal because they may or may not be "logical"(whatever you mean by that) or self-aware makes me sick. Let me tell you a shocker - PEOPLE DO CARE WHEN ANIMALS ARE KILLED NEEDLESSLY.

There is a huge difference in a collection of cells, and ANY organism that has a functioning and capable brain.

And just for your information, there ARE animals that ARE self aware.

From: Capricorn
…

The fact that you can justify killing a animal because they may or may not be "logical"(whatever you mean by that) or self-aware makes me sick. Let me tell you a shocker - PEOPLE DO CARE WHEN ANIMALS ARE KILLED NEEDLESSLY.

There is a huge difference in a collection of cells, and ANY organism that has a functioning and capable brain.

And just for your information, there ARE animals that ARE self aware.

I never said that it was okay to kill animals because they are not logical beings. Try to understand what I'm saying before you get all angry about it.

So you say that people in general care about animals. Okay then, I presume that you are vegetarian and do not enjoy eating meat, huh?

How many people have you seen get charged with murder for killing an animal?

I wasn't implying that killing animals is okay because they are illogical. I am saying that people generally don't care about animals BECAUSE they are illogical and not self-aware.

Answer is, if you dont want to get pregnant, use contraception. Fair enough if it fails, but it doesn't alot.

And Yakman, a foetus is capable at surviving outside of the womb at about 24 weeks at the moment, which is why the limit is set at that in the UK.

It's all for money or power.

the abortion issue is about anti-women sexism, as i elaborated in one of my last posts which noone has responded to.

Ok, but why are they discriminating? Power over something.

maybe because their religion teaches them to do that

Dont start w/ religion!

From: mrpickle
I dont feel sorry for Killing flies, or fly larvas, which is an organism, and have developed or can develop the function to act independently. I killed them because they are a nuisance to me.

So I am pro-choice. Why would we want to keep something, or go through the trouble of ensuring that something's safety, if we feel that something is a nuisance?

agreed.

Just to let you all know, pro life and pro choice aren't things which you are/aren't, they are anti-abortion movements that try and persuade the mother to not have an abortion. Pro-life use the bible to back up their ideas, while the pro-choice movement try and use their own non-religious ideas to persuade you against abortion.

Neither of them are opinions which you just have, they are both campaigners.

From: Richard
Pro-life is a Christian movement that uses the bible to back up its idea. Pro-choice use there own ideas (they aren't anywhere near as big).

Damn this RS exam is rubbing off on me.

I think you may be stereotypical exclaiming is as a Christian movement. What I wrote is much more general.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolife

Pro-life use the bible to back up their ideas,

Just The Bible?????

Damn this RS exam is rubbing off on me.

[Offtopic] What board are you with, assuming you choose RS for humanities [/offtopic]

Why would their religion tell them to do this? For power (the religions' power, of course).

From: NaumanAkhlaQ
Just The Bible?????

And their own ideas, but its a Christian movement so they are generally going to use the bible :p

[Offtopic] What board are you with, assuming you choose RS for humanities [/offtopic]

Its only the short course, and OCR.

Richard, Pro-Choice and Pro-Life is really an opinion. So you are Pro-Choice if you are following the idea's of the Pro-Choice movement.

I also think it is very ignorant of you to say that Pro-Life is only for christian people. Myself and my friend are both very Pro-Life, but both hate and condemn religion. I think alot of people are as such. In RS, obviously they have only taught you the religious arguments behind Pro-Life, not the other non-bullshizzle(<– no flame war, my opinion) arguments. If Pro-Life started as a christian movement, it doesn't mean anyone who follows it is Christian.

From: Wikipedia
Secular
Yet another breed of pro-life individuals hold no religious convictions, and rely upon non-religious sources to base their arguments. One of the more prominent secular pro-life advocates is Nat Hentoff of the Village Voice.

Some of those who are religious have used non-religious justifications when making public policy arguments, including some prominent pro-life politicians (for example, U.S. Presidents Ronald Reagan[42] and George W. Bush,[43] and U.S. Senator Sam Brownback).[44]

From: Torrent of Flame
Richard, Pro-Choice and Pro-Life is really an opinion. So you are Pro-Choice if you are following the idea's of the Pro-Choice movement.

I also think it is very ignorant of you to say that Pro-Life is only for christian people. Myself and my friend are both very Pro-Life, but both hate and condemn religion. I think alot of people are as such. In RS, obviously they have only taught you the religious arguments behind Pro-Life, not the other non-bullshizzle(<– no flame war, my opinion) arguments. If Pro-Life started as a christian movement, it doesn't mean anyone who follows it is Christian.

Yes, it is an opinion, but the people who have this opinion join the campaigners and get big signs and make protests outside abortion clinics, do you do this?

Aren't those pro-lifers the same people who think that if a girl gets raped and in result ends up being pregnant she should keep the baby because it'd be immoral to get rid of it?

Also saying "It's the same thing as if your parents got tired of you and just killed you" is pretty retarded, as if we compare a fetus (or w/e the word is, correct me if im wrong) to a grown up human we might see some differences like:

1. Fetuses cant think.
2. Fetuses aren't really able to do anything.
3. Fetuses don't have any social connections, hopes, dreams and whatnot.

And so on, and so on.. So it's nothing like killing an "actual human", and I think it makes more sense to get rid of the baby before it can even suffer than to keep it even though you're aware it'll most likely have a miserable life.

From: Richard
Yes, it is an opinion, but the people who have this opinion join the campaigners and get big signs and make protests outside abortion clinics, do you do this?

You do not have to do as such to follow said opinion. You are being very ignorant, again, my dear Richard. So your telling me, being pro-choice as you obviousley are, that you go to get babies aborted and picket for the right to abort children?

From: Torrent of Flame
You do not have to do as such to follow said opinion. You are being very ignorant, again, my dear Richard. So your telling me, being pro-choice as you obviousley are, that you go to get babies aborted and picket for the right to abort children?

we dont picket so much, we use petitions, signatures, lobby groups, newspaper articles, blogs and elect pro-choice politicians.
In other words, a proper democratic process that is used in all liberal democracies.

Pro-lifers do all those things too, but some of them do much more,


We do not stand outside clinics throwing rocks at pregnant women, we do not shoot doctors.

There is no difference between some pro-lifers and the Taliban apart from the fact that the Taliban are too civilised to murder someone in a church or a mosque.

From: Yakman
we dont picket so much, we use petitions, signatures, lobby groups, newspaper articles, blogs and elect pro-choice politicians.
In other words, a proper democratic process that is used in all liberal democracies.

Pro-lifers do all those things too, but some of them do much more,


We do not stand outside clinics throwing rocks at pregnant women, we do not shoot doctors.

There is no difference between some pro-lifers and the Taliban apart from the fact that the Taliban are too civilised to murder someone in a church or a mosque.

There are extremists in every cult following. Alot of Pro-Lifers are normal people who just dont agree with the whole abortion issue. It does not mean that all pro-lifers do what you have stated above. You seem to be tying in all of us with one brush. Its like saying all Muslim people are terrorists because it is extremists of said religion who are terrorists.

I can't see how you can tie us all in under one roof.

where are the pro choice extreamists?

I put that phrase into google and only found pro-life propaganda websites.


by extreamists I mean people who kill other people because of their beliefs.


EDIT: I should probably invite you all to respond to my acusation of sexism by the anti-choice movement, but I'm losing hope and I suspect you dont really care if you're sexist or not.

I see what you are saying, but none-the-less, you are still tying in all of us with one stereotype.

Stereotypes exist because they work.