SRL Archive - Discussions & Debates

From: Richard Dawkins
Like computer viruses, successful mind viruses will tend to be hard for their victims to detect. If you are the victim of one, the chances are that you won't know it, and may even vigorously deny it.

there is no verifiable evidence supporting the existance of a god or gods.

if you believe in god, how do you justify your belief?

I Dont believe in God :)

T~M

I dont believe in God. If god was omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, why are there non-believers in the world?

I don't believe in God myself, but today I accidently really annoyed some who is very religious by saying "Christians believe God is everywhere, but its scientifically proven that 99.99% of everything is nothing).

I don't got proof he doesn't exist and I don't got proof God exists.
I believe in God, if you don't to bad, I would like to see that change.
Remember it's a religion, religion's don't have proof; else it isn't a religion.

Period(for me, though).

ERM. Where did you get the idea that religion doesnt need proof? Is that a defining factor for religions? That they do not have to have proof as to where they came from?

religion is for people who dont understand science.

dont believe in him
bad things have happened in my life and if he existed then they wouldnt have happened

~shut

Science doesn't break God, God invented science, and he is the best in it.

Science has to be perfect right?
Are you perfect?
If not how can you use science perfect?
You're not perfect you will not understand God, I still don't.

I don't believe in god either… It simply doesn't make sense, as there are too many contradictions. Sure, they can simply say that something was interpreted wrong, but it doesn't sound very convincing to me…. ^^

Lol @ hermen xD

From: Hermen
Science doesn't break God, God invented science, and he is the best in it.

Science has to be perfect right?
Are you perfect?
If not how can you use science perfect?
You're not perfect you will not understand God, I still don't.

1 + 1 = 2, so maths = correct, science works in conjunction with maths, which is correct, which means science is correct.

And like I said earlier, why are there so many non-believers if God is all-powerful? God cannot be perfect, for if he was perfect everyone would believe in him.


EDIT: Pure, how do you mean contradictions? I assume you mean that of the bible, and the bible states God exists, but you cannot base God existing on the bible.

Life is impossible so anything is possible.

I just had a big debate with my parents about this, and we came to a solid conclusion, if you are never going to know anything for sure, then always think it is possible.

Having faith means that theres something to look forward to after you die, which is something which makes me open to the idea of God (I think I'm somewhat agnostic).

From: jakeyboy29
religion is for people who dont understand science.

i suppose you think you understand science?
Science is not fact. if you ask ANY knowledgable scientist they will tell you science CAN NOT prove ANYTHING to be true or false.

From: Torrent of Flame
1 + 1 = 2, so maths = correct, science works in conjunction with maths, which is correct, which means science is correct.

that is retarded!!!! that's like me saying, 1+1 = 2. so math = correct. I work in conjunction with math when calculating the time it will take a bullet to reach my targets head. Therefore when i go on a killing spree it is correct. ;)

From: Richard
I just had a big debate with my parents about this, and we came to a solid conclusion, if you are never going to know anything for sure, then always think it is possible.

Having faith means that there's something to look forward to after you die, which is something which makes me open to the idea of God (I think I'm somewhat agnostic).

I completely agree with if you don't know, than just think it CAN be possible. I believe in Intelligent design for 1 simple reason…
where did the stuff to start the Big Bang come from? Or what did we "evolve" from? evolving doesn't mean nothing to something. it means something to something more…. thus where did this "something" come from to begin with?

No one can answer that. NO ONE. therefore there is a DEMAND for a higher power. or something more intellectually "knowing" then humans.
call the creator God, or asldf;asldgj, or w/e u want. i don't care. BUT there has to be a higher power. NO (human) can make something out of nothing.

From: footballjds
that is retarded!!!! that's like me saying, 1+1 = 2. so math = correct. I work in conjunction with math when calculating the time it will take a bullet to reach my targets head. Therefore when i go on a killing spree it is correct. ;)

No, what you said is retarded. I meant as in the theory of maths has been proven correct, and if the theory of science works in conjunction with maths, which has been proven correct, then science must be correct otherwise science wouldnt be working in conjunction with maths.

You completely missed my point, and fucked up your own point. What has knowing when a bullet reaches someone's head got to do with going on a killing spree? It would mean that if you worked out the theoretical amount of time the bullet should take, then went and shot someone and the two were in concurrence, then that would be correct, but your point had no relevance at all.

Science is not fact. if you ask ANY knowledgable scientist they will tell you science CAN NOT prove ANYTHING to be true or false.

They cannot prove anything to be true of false because we dont know how the universe started, so we cannot prove anything for certain, but if alot of things work in conjunciton with eachother, they cant all be wrong, otherwise the foundations of life wouldnt work. And dont say 'God created it all to work', otherwise I want some definate proof that God created it all to work. The universe works and how we live works in concurrence with Maths and Science, so we can assume that these are what make life work.

as ur point had no relevance. im glad you got my point!

From: Shuttleu
dont believe in him
bad things have happened in my life and if he existed then they wouldnt have happened

~shut

The idea is that God has given people free will. Do you think that living in a perfect world would be at all interesting? People have the the right to make mistakes. For freak accidents…usually there isnt a freak accident that isnt at all related to people or things with free will.

From: Torrent of Flame
1 + 1 = 2, so maths = correct, science works in conjunction with maths, which is correct, which means science is correct.

Science constantly changes, gets better, corrects mistakes, expands. Science is never and will never be completely correct.

From: Torrent of Flame
And like I said earlier, why are there so many non-believers if God is all-powerful? God cannot be perfect, for if he was perfect everyone would believe in him.

Back to free will.

As for the Yakmeister, the idea behind religion usually is based on faith. You are encouraged to believe something without having proof or a verifiable way to explain god. Do you have some problem with religion? You have made 3 or four of these threads. Each has started and ended with no agreement or helpful conclusion. My only idea for why you would care so much about other people's beliefs are that you yourself are somehow conflicted.

From: footballjds
as ur point had no relevance. im glad you got my point!

so if i test for oxygen or another simple experiment, i can never prove this right? are you stupid?

nope. Science can not prove anything ;)
go ahead and do the research, ;) google it, or anything ;)
you can make a LAW, that's the highest. but those aren't proven fact ;)

From: footballjds
nope. Science can not prove anything ;)
go ahead and do the research, ;) google it, or anything ;)
you can make a LAW, that's the highest. but those aren't proven fact ;)

They pretty much are, lets be honest.

We know that a squeaky pop == hydrogen in a flame test. we KNOW that..

and Dan Cardin, so if God has given us free will, why do we go to 'hell' if we abuse this free will? Surely if it was free then God would allow us to let us do what we want with it and not punish us?

From: Hermen
Science doesn't break God, God invented science, and he is the best in it.

Science has to be perfect right?
Are you perfect?
If not how can you use science perfect?
You're not perfect you will not understand God, I still don't.

i think you'll find the scientific method as we know it was invented by humans, it grew by a gradual, incremental process of continuous improvement.
it was not invented by god, and to my knowledge no scriptures give any details of any part of the scientific method.

no-one said science is perfect, this is a strawman fallecy.

From: Richard
if you are never going to know anything for sure, then always think it is possible.

you could use the same logic for fairies.

Do I have fairys at the bottom of my garden? I dont know, perhaps I do, perhaps I dont. Its possible.

with your logic, you should be an agnostic towards fairies at the bottom at your garden.

lucky for us, there exists a way called the scientific method which helps you sort out all these possibilities.
there is no evidence for fairies, that is why virtually everyone is athiest towards fairies instead of agnostic towards fairies.

From: Richard
Having faith means that theres something to look forward to after you die,

well dont you think this is incredibly mislead,
just because you believe in something doesnt mean its correct.

you having faith doesnt magic heaven into existance.


I think the issue here is that, X is comforting does not imply X is true.




I think this is one of the major problems with the delusion of god, it teaches people, "I dont need to do anything worthwhile in this life, as long as I go to church, I will get a second chance in the afterlife"

From: footballjds
I completely agree with if you don't know, than just think it CAN be possible. I believe in Intelligent design for 1 simple reason…
where did the stuff to start the Big Bang come from? Or what did we "evolve" from? evolving doesn't mean nothing to something. it means something to something more…. thus where did this "something" come from to begin with?

No one can answer that. NO ONE. therefore there is a DEMAND for a higher power. or something more intellectually "knowing" then humans.
call the creator God, or asldf;asldgj, or w/e u want. i don't care. BUT there has to be a higher power. NO (human) can make something out of nothing.

that could easily be turned against you by asking where did god come from?
god is something, and you've just asserted that something cannot come from nothing. So with your logic, there is a demand for a higher power then god.

but then you can ask, "what created this higher power then god", and it would have to be a higher power then the higher power that created god.

but what created that?

so as you can see, saying that god created it solves nothing.

(I suspect you're going to say that god is somehow outside the universe, but this cannot be since god is omnipresent, so if he is outside the universe then he is not god)

From: Dan Cardin
As for the Yakmeister, the idea behind religion usually is based on faith. You are encouraged to believe something without having proof or a verifiable way to explain god. Do you have some problem with religion?

yes, this is one of the biggest problems with religion.

It teaches you to be satisfied with not knowing, it teaches that it's a good thing when you dont understand something. Instead, it teaches that you must have faith.
in other words, religion teaches you to be stupid.

From: Dan Cardin
You have made 3 or four of these threads. Each has started and ended with no agreement or helpful conclusion. My only idea for why you would care so much about other people's beliefs are that you yourself are somehow conflicted.

other then this thread, I've made one thread about god and one thread about the bible.
not very much, surprisingly.

guess again, its not for that reason :p

From: footballjds

that is retarded!!!! that's like me saying, 1+1 = 2. so math = correct. I work in conjunction with math when calculating the time it will take a bullet to reach my targets head. Therefore when i go on a killing spree it is correct. ;)

I must say that's one hell of an analogy… xD
Personally I don't believe in god, i don't see how its possible to have some 'being' which nobody has ever seen or met who is apparently everywhere… makes no sense imo, but each to their own i spose :):rolleyes:

i NEVER said i can explain God, Yakman. If I could( or anyone could) that would make him not God. :D
;)
all im saying is there has to be a higher power. But i can't explain it :D. i don't know everything, :duh:

From: ritchmister
I must say that's one hell of an analogy… xD
Personally I don't believe in god, i don't see how its possible to have some 'being' which nobody has ever seen or met who is apparently everywhere… makes no sense imo, but each to their own i spose :):rolleyes:

No it wasnt. It was an awful analogy which made no point.

footballjds: I assume you adopt the 'design argument' to explain God? Why does there HAVE to be a higher power out 'there'. Where did God come from to make us, if you do adopt this argument. If he was always just 'there' why did he randomly decide to make us?

you just again admitted it made a point… ;)
it made the point that it was as absurd as urs ;)(no point ;) )

From: footballjds
you just again admitted it made a point… ;)
it made the point that it was as absurd as urs ;)(no point ;) )

My point was not absurd. It was worded awfully, but it had some idea behind it.

God = invented nub.

/Thread ?

From: Torrent of Flame
My point was not absurd. It was worded awfully, but it had some idea behind it.

i totally agree with the worded part!

Well i believe that there is something above us, Have you ever felt very sad or something, something terrible has happend in your life.. It would make me Well i don't know is this a very correct word for this "Pray" that everything would be Okay :)


~Home

yakman, why must you always start this? Different people believe in different things, it just happens that way.

If you think people that believe in God are controlling, then why do you try to "control" other peoples thoughts, when they read this thread. I think it is in people's nature to want others to believe the same way that they do.
I say let everyone believe in what they want, and in whomever they want, whenever they want, and where-ever they want. Hell, you could even believe in fairies, and I wouldn't care. That is why I live in the USA, and why my ancestors came to the Americas.

He isnt telling people their opinion is wrong, mormonman, he is just invoking intellectual discussion. AND LOL at your bit about the USA. Usa != Land of the free, but that is a different argument.

From: Torrent of Flame
He isnt telling people their opinion is wrong, mormonman, he is just invoking intellectual discussion. AND LOL at your bit about the USA. Usa != Land of the free, but that is a different argument.

He is trying to sway people's opinions by telling them that theirs is wrong and their is no way it can be right. Maybe not on purpose but it happens.

USA is as close as you can get to land of the free(for religions)… Even a marijuana church almost won a case in the court :o

From: mormonman
USA is as close as you can get to land of the free(for religions)… Even a marijuana church almost won a case in the court :o

lol :rolleyes:

From: footballjds
lol :rolleyes:

judge decision was 4-3… the leaders then got sent to jail :D

From: mormonman
He is trying to sway people's opinions by telling them that theirs is wrong and their is no way it can be right. Maybe not on purpose but it happens.

USA is as close as you can get to land of the free(for religions)… Even a marijuana church almost won a case in the court :o

Sorry, but I giggled at the USA part as well… Let's compare it to the Netherlands, shall we? (Or generally European countries)

From: Torrent of Flame
He isnt telling people their opinion is wrong, mormonman, he is just invoking intellectual discussion. AND LOL at your bit about the USA. Usa != Land of the free, but that is a different argument.

Ye i agree with TfF, because that your USA stuff, no i don't blame everyone, but why the heck always USA is the best ?
That's my question, every country has their faults, but like USA = Land of freedom Should be USA = Land of US ( We own everything)

~Home

From: footballjds
lol :rolleyes:

ahah.

mormonman, erm. no. there is alot of multi-cultural places. the UK has plently of accepted, mainstream religions.

He isnt telling people their opinion is wrong, mormonman, he is just invoking intellectual discussion. AND LOL at your bit about the USA. Usa != Land of the free, but that is a different argument.

http://www.villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?p=571273

From: Torrent of Flame
ahah.

mormonman, erm. no. there is alot of multi-cultural places. the UK has plently of accepted, mainstream religions.

exactly…

regarding america being the land of religious freedom.

why do american athiests care about religion?

1. Because the constitutions of seven states–Arkansas, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Texas–contain provisions prohibiting atheists from holding public office or testifying in court.

2. Atheist boys cannot be members of the Boy Scouts even though the Boy Scouts commonly receive public funds and special consideration in the use of public lands.

3. Politicians like President Bush Sr. feel free to say: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

4. "Blue laws" in many states restrict what can be sold on Sundays based on religious considerations.

5. The phrase "under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954.

6. The phrase "In god we trust" was added to U.S. coins in 1864 and to dollar bills in 1957.

7. The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation, yet I see some Christians seriously attempting to make it so.

8. Those professing religious beliefs are attempting to control what is taught in public schools so as to conform to, or at least not conflict with, their dogma. They seek, for instance, to have creationism or intelligent design passed off as science in public schools.

9. National, state, and local policy decisions are being decided based not on rational thought and discourse, but religious belief and fervor.

10. Atheists are the least trusted minority in the U.S. simply because they have no belief in god(s).

These are drawn from a YouTube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4fQA9mt-Mg



Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.


this is a Discussion and Debates section, I'm contributing, no-one is forcing you to read this thread or post in it.

From: footballjds
exactly…

Yes, the USA are extremely cool to the Koran and Muslims, aren't they?
("Let's not vote for Obama! He is a muslim, he must be a terrorist!")

Yakman, your replies are always of epic proportions.

From: yakman

this is a Discussion and Debates section, I'm contributing, no-one is forcing you to read this thread or post in it.

agreed…

From: Wizzup?

Yes, the USA are extremely cool to the Koran and Muslims, aren't they?
("Let's not vote for Obama! He is a muslim, he must be a terrorist!")

He got elected… by majority? hmm…

From: mormonman
agreed…



He got elected… by majority? hmm…

That doesn't indicate that 49% of the USA can't be against Muslims.

apparently i am useless.

From: footballjds
all im saying is there has to be a higher power. But i can't explain it :D. i don't know everything, :duh:

well in my last post, i just showed you that the proposed solution of a "higher power" comes up to the very same problems it tries to solve.

its clear that the high power hypothesis is flawed, it cant be the right answer.

From: Torrent of Flame
And Dan Cardin, so if God has given us free will, why do we go to 'hell' if we abuse this free will? Surely if it was free then God would allow us to let us do what we want with it and not punish us?

I R nawt Dan Cardin, but I want to answer that. It is not that God "Punishes" us, it is that God does not allow any sin into heaven. Which is why we need Jesus.

From: Yakman
i think you'll find the scientific method as we know it was invented by humans, it grew by a gradual, incremental process of continuous improvement.
it was not invented by god, and to my knowledge no scriptures give any details of any part of the scientific method.

no-one said science is perfect, this is a strawman fallecy.

I believe by "Science" he more or less meant nature, and the study of it. God wanted us to observe his creation and see its marvelous features.

If humanity is imperfect, and it creates something, that something can not be perfect. Hence, the scientific method "as we know it" is flawed.

From: Yakman
I think this is one of the major problems with the delusion of god, it teaches people, "I dont need to do anything worthwhile in this life, as long as I go to church, I will get a second chance in the afterlife"

False. At least Christianity, does not teach that. Christianity teaches people to be good to each other, and spread God's word. Generally people do not just become Christians and quit, some do, but people who have a relationship with God feel a need to spread their beliefs with other people, and share the joy He has imparted onto them.

From: Yakman
that could easily be turned against you by asking where did god come from?
god is something, and you've just asserted that something cannot come from nothing. So with your logic, there is a demand for a higher power then god.

but then you can ask, "what created this higher power then god", and it would have to be a higher power then the higher power that created god.

but what created that?

so as you can see, saying that god created it solves nothing.

Not quite, as God is not limited to having to be made. You might want to duct tape your head as this next comment might make it explode. We dont need to understand how or why He didnt need to be made, rather that his existance always has been and always will be.

From: Yakman

yes, this is one of the biggest problems with religion.

It teaches you to be satisfied with not knowing, it teaches that it's a good thing when you dont understand something. Instead, it teaches that you must have faith.
in other words, religion teaches you to be stupid.

It teaches you that we cannot begin to understand an infinite being. There is a very large difference, an "infinite" one, if you will. [/pun]

From: Yakman
regarding america being the land of religious freedom.

why do american athiests care about religion?

1. Because the constitutions of seven states–Arkansas, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Texas–contain provisions prohibiting atheists from holding public office or testifying in court.

Those provisions can only come to fruition if someone publicly announces they do not believe in a God, not to mention people are not forced to say if the do or do not believe

From: Yakman

2. Atheist boys cannot be members of the Boy Scouts even though the Boy Scouts commonly receive public funds and special consideration in the use of public lands.

The Boy Scouts only requires you to acknowledge some kind of God, even being, yourself.

From: Yakman

3. Politicians like President Bush Sr. feel free to say: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

Double negative?

From: Yakman
4. "Blue laws" in many states restrict what can be sold on Sundays based on religious considerations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law

From: Yakman
5. The phrase "under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954.

And?

From: Yakman
6. The phrase "In god we trust" was added to U.S. coins in 1864 and to dollar bills in 1957.

Neither of these statements hold any debating value, they are simply random statements.

From: Yakman
7. The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation, yet I see some Christians seriously attempting to make it so.

In the Declaration of Independence, which stated our nation was independent from Great Britain, says,

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

From: Yakman

8. Those professing religious beliefs are attempting to control what is taught in public schools so as to conform to, or at least not conflict with, their dogma. They seek, for instance, to have creationism or intelligent design passed off as science in public schools.

Quite funny, that you would bring that up (or rather the video dude). Am I the only one who does not believe it to be right that only evolution is being taught in schools when there are alternatives. Not even to explicitly teach creationism, but maybe, teach what is wrong with the theory of evolution.

From: Yakman
9. National, state, and local policy decisions are being decided based not on rational thought and discourse, but religious belief and fervor.

Religion shapes people's beliefs, politicians do not quote scripture in congress in regards to, gay marriage, abortion, and other hot-button issues. They argue what they believe based on certain scriptures, but lots of people who are not Christians are against abortion and gay marriage.

From: Yakman
10. Atheists are the least trusted minority in the U.S. simply because they have no belief in god(s).

That is quite sad to me, but there is no proof that it is because they do not believe in a God or gods.

From: Yakman
Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.

If you consider your no-religion a religion I suppose…

From: footballjds
i NEVER said i can explain God, Yakman. If I could( or anyone could) that would make him not God. :D
;)
all im saying is there has to be a higher power. But i can't explain it :D. i don't know everything, :duh:

agreed. I dont believe in God persay, but I believe in a higher power.

If you close your eyes whilst travelling in a car, you cannot tell which direction you are traveling in, or if your travelling at all. However, you know, even though you cant see, smell, hear, or feel the car moving (although you might feel a few "bumps" along the way), it is. The same goes with "a higher power", you might not feel it, smell it , hear it or even know its there, but it is.

Ive been in two car accidents in my life, one which I probably should have died, yet I came out without a scratch (besides my two front teeth ;)). The second I nearly killed a girl but swerved and hit aprox. 6 inches from the driver door, and we both, including 5 passengers in my Truck and the two in her van, walked away with a couple of bruises and thats it, while both vehicles were totalled. Call it what you want, but to me thats a sign that somebody/something wants to keep me alive.

Now then disprove me, show me some statistics and tell me I'm completely wrong, but you cant change my believe in the same way I cant change yours. But think about your life, all the priveledges you have, and think of the priveleges you might not have had. Call it fate if you will. You were one in six billion to live your life, the only one that ever will. You were the faster sperm out of trillions (XD) and you were born into an affluent (or affluent enough to own a computer) family, when you could easily be living in Africa starving, or Iraq and living every day in fear.

I don't necessarily believe in God, but like Blumblebee, a higher power that nobody can explain. And for everyone that doesn't believe in God, what do you say happens when you die?

Also, let's say God doesn't exist for a second. Should we not still abide by his 10 commandments? Isn't it still good to not kill, swear, steal, commit adultery, ect.

From: sirlaughsalot
If humanity is imperfect, and it creates something, that something can not be perfect. Hence, the scientific method "as we know it" is flawed.

Logic is perfect. A is A is perfect. Humans can't be "perfect," as we have no standard of "perfect" to compare to. Ideas, however, can be perfect.

From: sirlaughsalot
Not quite, as God is not limited to having to be made. You might want to duct tape your head as this next comment might make it explode. We dont need to understand how or why He didnt need to be made, rather that his existance always has been and always will be.

If you can say this, then why can we not say that all of the energy in the universe always has been and always will be?

From: sirlaughsalot
Those provisions can only come to fruition if someone publicly announces they do not believe in a God, not to mention people are not forced to say if the do or do not believe

Would it be right to prosecute Jews or Muslims if they publicly announced their religion?

From: sirlaughsalot
The Boy Scouts only requires you to acknowledge some kind of God, even being, yourself.

That's stupid.. I know I'm not a god, so I can never join Boy Scouts?

From: sirlaughsalot
And?

Neither of these statements hold any debating value, they are simply random statements.

This was supposed to be a secular nation.. how would you feel if it was changed to "One nation under Allah," "One nation under Yahweh," or "One nation under Zeus"?

From: sirlaughsalot
In the Declaration of Independence, which stated our nation was independent from Great Britain, says, …(quote)…

So because of one line in the DoI, this country is a christian nation?

From: sirlaughsalot
Quite funny, that you would bring that up (or rather the video dude). Am I the only one who does not believe it to be right that only evolution is being taught in schools when there are alternatives. Not even to explicitly teach creationism, but maybe, teach what is wrong with the theory of evolution.

If you were to teach what's wrong with the theory, you'd have to teach what's wrong with all of the other theories being taught. That would take way too much time.

From: Griff721
I don't necessarily believe in God, but like Blumblebee, a higher power that nobody can explain. And for everyone that doesn't believe in God, what do you say happens when you die?

You are no longer conscious of anything. You are dead.

From: Griff721
Also, let's say God doesn't exist for a second. Should we not still abide by his 10 commandments? Isn't it still good to not kill, swear, steal, commit adultery, ect.

Just because a god doesn't exist means that we should start killing/harming each other? No. We don't do that stuff because we fear the recoil – either the law, or the victim fighting back.

From: Griff721
I don't necessarily believe in God, but like Blumblebee, a higher power that nobody can explain. And for everyone that doesn't believe in God, what do you say happens when you die?

Also, let's say God doesn't exist for a second. Should we not still abide by his 10 commandments? Isn't it still good to not kill, swear, steal, commit adultery, ect.

There actually more than 10, its just these 10 are the most well known. And Swearing, stealing and commiting adultery is not unappreciated because of God, it is because of the government. AFAIK, they put rules in place so if you do this you go to jail… We dont do these things because we have morals and we are bought up to abide by a set of morals.

From: Griff721

I don't necessarily believe in God, but like Blumblebee, a higher power that nobody can explain. And for everyone that doesn't believe in God, what do you say happens when you die?

You cease to exist. You just dont exist anymore. When you die, thats it. You do nothing. Your body is just an inaminate object.

From: jakeyboy29
religion is for people who dont understand science.

Religion created science.

Science was around thousands of years before your religion was even started. Of course you could mean that Zeus created science or something, but I'm sure that's not what you mean.

From: bullzeye95
Science was around thousands of years before your religion was even started.

ROFL, ;)
read the first verse in the Bible if you think that :rolleyes:
don't say something off the wall you don't know :)

God shaped people as adults.
God shaped earth as million years old.

From: footballjds
ROFL, ;)
read the first verse in the Bible if you think that :rolleyes:
don't say something off the wall you don't know :)

AHAHAHAHHAHAHAH!

So because the Bible says something its true? Don't say something so daft.

The Bible != True. Depends on your opinion.

well don't tell me when my religion started ;)
cause u don't believe in it :p

From: footballjds
well don't tell me when my religion started ;)
cause u don't believe in it :p

So.. dinosaurs? How did those come about then?

well, i think my answer would be obvious. but to you its a matter of opinion. and i think i stated mine FAR to much

I consider religion an answer to questions for the simple minded.
Why does a ball drop to the ground?
Because God made it that way.

You can answer any question this way, which pisses me off.
I have stated my point…

Also, without religion science would have excelled immensely.
Most religions (back a couple of hundred years) cut off your head and called you a devil worshiper if you said that the Earth orbits the Sun.

Just saying…
:D

From: xXxBlender3DxXx
I consider religion an answer to questions for the simple minded.
Why does a ball drop to the ground?
Because God made it that way.

You can answer any question this way, which pisses me off.
I have stated my point…

Sure that answers the question, it does not limit you only to that explanation though. Religion is a very complicated concept, if you really think about it and actually study it and try to begin to understand it. You skim the surface and focus on one point and say "It is for the simple minded because…" When really you cannot grasp the concept of an infinite being, and that makes you simple minded.

From: footballjds
well, i think my answer would be obvious. but to you its a matter of opinion. and i think i stated mine FAR to much

God put them there to test our faith? What..?

From: sirlaughsalot
Sure that answers the question, it does not limit you only to that explanation though. Religion is a very complicated concept, if you really think about it and actually study it and try to begin to understand it. You skim the surface and focus on one point and say "It is for the simple minded because…" When really you cannot grasp the concept of an infinite being, and that makes you simple minded.

Religion contradicts with reality and logic. I don't need to explain why, you just think about it.

Also here's one contradiction: if God is the Creator, who created Him?
Nothing can be eternal since matter decays. Unless you reject science completely, you can't believe in God.

From: Hermen
God shaped people as adults.
God shaped earth as million years old.

If God shaped people as adults, then why are babies tiny?
And the Earth isn't a million years old:p
Its 4.55 billion years old.

About 4,550 time more than you said.

From: sirlaughsalot
I believe by "Science" he more or less meant nature, and the study of it. God wanted us to observe his creation and see its marvelous features.

well then he is onto a loser.

the word Science comes from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge" or "knowing".
it is not necessarily to do with nature, for example ecnomics is a science, yet it deals with purely human activities.
sociology and psychology are also examples of sciences that are nothing to do with nature.

it is the scientific method that allows us to study all this, and there is no detail of it in the scriptures.

From: sirlaughsalot
If humanity is imperfect, and it creates something, that something can not be perfect. Hence, the scientific method "as we know it" is flawed.

it doesnt need to be perfect, but it works and its proven itself to work countless times.
without the scientific method the world would be a very very different place.

the obvious irony here is how you say its not perfect and suggest it is useless, but you'll go to a doctor when you get ill. Guess where the doctor's knowledge came from.

From: sirlaughsalot
False. At least Christianity, does not teach that. Christianity teaches people to be good to each other, and spread God's word. Generally people do not just become Christians and quit, some do, but people who have a relationship with God feel a need to spread their beliefs with other people, and share the joy He has imparted onto them.

the second part of your paragraph doesnt make much sense.
people can be good to each other and do very little worthwhile.

but i more talking about who have faith because it gives them something to look forward to when they die.

From: sirlaughsalot
Not quite, as God is not limited to having to be made. You might want to duct tape your head as this next comment might make it explode. We dont need to understand how or why He didnt need to be made, rather that his existance always has been and always will be.

yes, this is exactly what im talking about.
Faith teaches you to be satisfied with not knowing.


although according to footballjds,

From: footballjds
thus where did this "something" come from to begin with?

substitute "god" into "something.

From: sirlaughsalot
Those provisions can only come to fruition if someone publicly announces they do not believe in a God, not to mention people are not forced to say if the do or do not believe

so you're admitting that someone cannot be openly athiest, they have to hide their non belief, they have to show half-truths to their electorate.
doesnt seem at all fair when christian and jewish politicians can be open about their faith, they even invite people to pray with them.

From: sirlaughsalot
The Boy Scouts only requires you to acknowledge some kind of God, even being, yourself.

this doesnt excuse it, it is still prejudgist against people who dont believe in god.

From: sirlaughsalot
Double negative?

i dont understand where the double negative is. President Bush Sr basically said to be a citizen of the US you need to believe in god. This is prejudgist against people who dont believe in god and that is one reason why american athiests care about it.

From: sirlaughsalot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law

i dont understand, that wikipedia article supports my point.

From: blue-law-wikipedia-article

Most have been repealed, have been declared unconstitutional, or are simply unenforced, although prohibitions on the sale of alcoholic beverages, and occasionally almost all commerce, on Sundays are still enforced in many areas.

so you have to buy your booze on another day even if you're not a christian and dont believe that about Sundays.

From: sirlaughsalot
And?

why should athiests (or any non-believers) have to lie to become citizens of a country that is not a christian nation? (more on this later)

From: sirlaughsalot
Neither of these statements hold any debating value, they are simply random statements.

im sure you can see why that stuff would cause worry for non-christians.

From: sirlaughsalot
In the Declaration of Independence, which stated our nation was independent from Great Britain, says,

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

the DOI talking about a creator does not imply that america is a christian nation.

iirc most of the founding fathers were either deists or athiests.

for more concrete evidence for my case, see the Treaty of Tripoli written and signed in 1797.
it was written to end a war between the US and Tripoli.

Article 11 of it reads

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

From: sirlaughsalot
Quite funny, that you would bring that up (or rather the video dude). Am I the only one who does not believe it to be right that only evolution is being taught in schools when there are alternatives. Not even to explicitly teach creationism, but maybe, teach what is wrong with the theory of evolution.

the reason this worries so many people and the reason it was mentioned is that the theory of evolution has much evidence supporting it, while creationism and intelligence design has no evidence.

From: sirlaughsalot
That is quite sad to me, but there is no proof that it is because they do not believe in a God or gods.

the definition of an athiest is one who does not believe in god(s).
the proof is right there,

if you ask, "do you trust an athiest?", or "do you trust one who does not believe in god?", you are actually asking the same question.

From: footballjds
ROFL, ;)
read the first verse in the Bible if you think that :rolleyes:
don't say something off the wall you don't know :)

you're wrong, he is right.
the ancient greeks had some pretty sophisicated stuff for their time, and this was ~500 years before jesus was supposedly born.

also, there is no evidence to back up the bible, therefore no truth can be derived from it alone.

From: Hermen
God shaped people as adults.
God shaped earth as million years old.

the evidence suggests otherwise
the evidence shows the earth was shaped by purely natural phenomina, such as erosion, collisons, life and chemical reactions.

From: kingarabian
Religion created science.

this is an untruth, in reality, science progresses in spite of religion, not because of it.

what are the fiercest opponents of evolution by natural selection? the religious people.

why did people oppose the heliocentric model? because of religion.

the catholic church for example has opposed virtually every single advancement in science that conflicts with their beliefs. Yet these advancements increase the happyness and quality of life for millions if not billions of people.

From: footballjds
well don't tell me when my religion started ;)
cause u don't believe in it :p

what does believing in it have to do with anything?

I dont believe in the flying spaghetti monster but I know that religion started in 2006.

everyone knows jesus founded the christian religion, and muhammed founded the muslim religion, and buddha founded the buddhist religion. etc etc

Christianity was not started when Christ was born ;)
It was changed when he was born but in essence it was there b4 he came

isnt that a jewish thing?

From: footballjds
Christianity was not started when Christ was born ;)
It was changed when he was born but in essence it was there b4 he came

No it wasnt. The first council of Nicaea was the effort by Constantine to unite all of the Christendom denominations into one religion, now known as Christianity.

This is also essentially where the first 'laws' of Christianity was agreed upon, not specifically the first council, but in the Council of Nicaea. Christ was seen to be the 'divinity' by the council. This is where the idea that Christ == God came from.

Yes, Christianity is derived from Jewdaism

From: Torrent of Flame
No it wasnt. The first council of Nicaea was the effort by Constantine to unite all of the Christendom denominations into one religion, now known as Christianity.

This is also essentially where the first 'laws' of Christianity was agreed upon, not specifically the first council, but in the Council of Nicaea. Christ was seen to be the 'divinity' by the council. This is where the idea that Christ == God came from.

And everything just about everything about Christ was predicted 100s of years before he came.
How could they predict it???
There is many other things that were predicted in the Bible are are recorded to have happened by other historians. How were they predicted by the bible??

From: Torrent of Flame
and Dan Cardin, so if God has given us free will, why do we go to 'hell' if we abuse this free will? Surely if it was free then God would allow us to let us do what we want with it and not punish us?

I do not know, not really my area of expertise, though i see your question was adequately answered above. I wasn't advocating what they believe, just explaining their reasoning (or what i think their reasoning is)

@Yakkmeister - Woops, im sorry, you made 1 and 2 then you fought very feistily in the two threads by pwnaz0r. Maybe its not specifically God driven? There have been 10 threads by you in discussions and debates on relatively heated debating type subjects. Not including ones that havent been made by you. Maybe its a different sort of erm…quest i might call it?

From: bullzeye95
Science was around thousands of years before your religion was even started. Of course you could mean that Zeus created science or something, but I'm sure that's not what you mean.

…….What?

History boy, history!

It's funny how some bronze-age cults still influence people so much. If christianity was introduced to people today everyone would just laugh their asses off, and nobody (except maybe a few toothless one-eyed rednecks) would take it seriously.

My view to the whole religion thing is that it's just useless. Nothing good has ever come out of religion and never will, or perhaps someone could tell me something (please no "jesus christ! the savior! he will save you in your afterlife!"), but oh how many wars it's started and how many people have died because of it..

The one thing that annoys me the most about creationists is the "SCIENCE IS EVIL AND MAKES YOU KILL PEOPLE" attitude. Seriously, do people who say that really think we'd be better off with a 20 year life expectancy(sp), no hygiene, no healthcare, "houses" would be caves or some silly cottages put together from twigs and clay, food would be dirty water with some berries and a random animals badly cooked meat and hunting for the animal would be chasing it around with a sharp stick, and so on and so on… And of course, if anyone thought of any advancement they'd just promptly be killed for witchcraft. That'd be life indeed. So instead of taking everything science has accomplished for granted and doing everything in their power to stop it those people could try to live completely without anything science has done for mankind for just a month or so, and then think again.. But I doubt any would survive.

From: footballjds
And everything just about everything about Christ was predicted 100s of years before he came.
How could they predict it???
There is many other things that were predicted in the Bible are are recorded to have happened by other historians. How were they predicted by the bible??

Because none of it is true. You can "predict" something will happen and then just claim it happened, and conveniently you don't need any evidence of this happening either, because you just think about it wrong if you don't believe.

From: GoF
It's funny how some bronze-age cults still influence people so much. If christianity was introduced to people today everyone would just laugh their asses off, and nobody (except maybe a few toothless one-eyed rednecks) would take it seriously.

My view to the whole religion thing is that it's just useless. Nothing good has ever come out of religion and never will, or perhaps someone could tell me something (please no "jesus christ! the savior! he will save you in your afterlife!"), but oh how many wars it's started and how many people have died because of it..

The one thing that annoys me the most about creationists is the "SCIENCE IS EVIL AND MAKES YOU KILL PEOPLE" attitude. Seriously, do people who say that really think we'd be better off with a 20 year life expectancy(sp), no hygiene, no healthcare, "houses" would be caves or some silly cottages put together from twigs and clay, food would be dirty water with some berries and a random animals badly cooked meat and hunting for the animal would be chasing it around with a sharp stick, and so on and so on… And of course, if anyone thought of any advancement they'd just promptly be killed for witchcraft. That'd be life indeed. So instead of taking everything science has accomplished for granted and doing everything in their power to stop it those people could try to live completely without anything science has done for mankind for just a month or so, and then think again.. But I doubt any would survive.



Because none of it is true. You can "predict" something will happen and then just claim it happened, and conveniently you don't need any evidence of this happening either, because you just think about it wrong if you don't believe.

Again, religion created science. But I do agree that Christianity has alot of flaws.

From: kingarabian
Again, religion created science. But I do agree that Christianity has alot of flaws.

Religion created science? Religion tries to stop science with whatever means possible.
The only way it could have create science is by predicting such idiotic stuff that people wanted to prove otherwise, thus invented science.

From: footballjds
And everything just about everything about Christ was predicted 100s of years before he came.
How could they predict it???
There is many other things that were predicted in the Bible are are recorded to have happened by other historians. How were they predicted by the bible??

Examples of predictions that came true please?

From: kingarabian
…….What?

History boy, history!

What are you trying to say? :\

From: kingarabian
Again, religion created science.

You keep saying this, but haven't given one case of religion advancing science.

From: bullzeye95

From: kingarabian
Again, religion created science. But I do agree that Christianity has alot of flaws.

You keep saying this, but haven't given one case of religion advancing science.

and we've given many examples of religion hindering science.

From: Yakman
and we've given many examples of religion hindering science.

agreed!!!
the catholic church didn't want to believe that the sun was the center of the universe because they thought God would have made everything evolve around the earth ;)

that is pathetic, granted :D

Religion is the opium of the masses. - Karl Max

I myself am not sure what I believe. I don't really put much though into it because, really, how does believing that there is or isn't a god(s) affect me?

From: Ogre
I myself am not sure what I believe. I don't really put much though into it because, really, how does believing that there is or isn't a god(s) affect me?

Well said.

T~M

Im not sure about religion itself, but afaik, many religious people (priests and whatnot) came up with many a now commonly accepted scientific theory; big bang for instance.

God wouldn't really be God unless you had to believe in Him. If it was obvious God was there, religion wouldn't really exist. So you either believe, or you don't. Science can't really prove anything here.

From: jakeyboy29
religion is for people who dont understand science.

Saying that makes you very dumb.

You guys do know that you can argue about this until the MySQL Database runs out of space?
It has been debated for thousands of years, so I don't think that a group of people devoted to creating the perfect computer program that can simulate a person in an online game would make a difference.

Just saying…

People are stubborn. Very stubborn. They don't want to listen to others' ideas and want to prove that their idea is better than all the rest. Even those that share the exact same idea with them.

From: xXxBlender3DxXx
You guys do know that you can argue about this until the MySQL Database runs out of space?
It has been debated for thousands of years, so I don't think that a group of people devoted to creating the perfect computer program that can simulate a person in an online game would make a difference.

Just saying…

People are stubborn. Very stubborn. They don't want to listen to others' ideas and want to prove that their idea is better than all the rest. Even those that share the exact same idea with them.

It would take a few thousand years before we'd run out of Disk Space, I am afraid. And before that, 1000TB will be as just as cheap 50GB is right now. ;)

I hate these threads you post yakman, keep them to one of them.

People believe in what they want to believe/happen/be. So stop posting these :@

From: Dr D. Dervish
I hate these threads you post yakman, keep them to one of them.

People believe in what they want to believe/happen/be. So stop posting these :@

This is the debate forum. You don't have to debate if you don't want to.

From: Dr D. Dervish
I hate these threads you post yakman, keep them to one of them.

People believe in what they want to believe/happen/be. So stop posting these :@

why, according to you, is it allowed to debate about political, social and economical beliefs, but not allowed to debate about religious beliefs?

that makes no sense to me, how are religious beliefs any different?

From: Yakman
why, according to you, is it allowed to debate about political, social and economical beliefs, but not allowed to debate about religious beliefs?

that makes no sense to me, how are religious beliefs any different?

Well obviously he is a religious fundamentalist fanatic who doesn't want to give people a chance to prove him wrong ;)

Religion. I have a GF who is religious, and myself who isn't. Hefty little combo here =D.

I have once searched on google for aboriginal art (year 2007), and came across a report by a German scientist who discovered 2 "unknown" genes that cannot be linked to anything else in the world. His furthured that study, and concluded that we may have been visited by these aliens whose genes mixed to ours. He included a drawing on the type of person these "Athenians" would look like.

Anyways, just one of my old memories. Take it or leave it. I've done enough thinking on it.

i agree with yakman. u should not follow any religon. its the blind leading the blind!

but i guess some people need hope in there life and god is that hope

Cults = really bad - i.e. klu klux klan

religion = internationally sprend cult ….

am i right ?

no scientific proof, the bible was made by man and if there was a god why is there so much suffering?

From: Z3r0Grav
Cults = really bad - i.e. klu klux klan

religion = internationally sprend cult ….

am i right ?

no scientific proof, the bible was made by man and if there was a god why is there so much suffering?

There is suffering because Eve ate the forbidden apple.

again bible is made by MAN! theres so much shit in it about nothing - yes i have read the bible, you cant call yourself an aithest without reading it.

From: Z3r0Grav
again bible is made by MAN! theres so much shit in it about nothing - yes i have read the bible, you cant call yourself an aithest without reading it.

Well you can.

From: Z3r0Grav
again bible is made by MAN! theres so much shit in it about nothing - yes i have read the bible, you cant call yourself an aithest without reading it.

If you belive that, then you must also read all the other religious books to know what you're not believing in there, too.

I personally find it easier and less arrogant than simply disbelieving the existence of a god to neither believe or disbelieve one. I do though have serious doubts as to whether there is indeed one, but I'm not just proclaiming myself and Atheist and being silly. If we are to believe science, then the universe is infinite. In an infinite universe, anything and everything can and will happen. I personally think that many of the religions such as Christianity and similar ones are very dumb, and have nothing to do with any such god. Most things make no sense at all, which is very much different from just having unexplainability, which doesn't necessarily its wrong. So i am really no more inclined to believe in Jesus and that god, than i am to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I believe in God Yakman.

I believe in God because I'm thankful for the things he's given me, and that is a good head on my shoulders and a lot wisdom, just like he's given you. :norris:

you dont know he's given you all that stuff, theres no evidence for any of what you just said.

I'm gonna stick to evidence and logical thinking, as it has worked countless times before and never lets me down.


While you are left with your irrational beliefs typical of what a small child would believe.
In the same way a baby believes they are the center of the world, and that everything disappears when they close their eyes, you are living in a fantasy world and its about time you grew up.

From: Yakman
you dont know he's given you all that stuff, theres no evidence for any of what you just said.

I'm gonna stick to evidence and logical thinking, as it has worked countless times before and never lets me down.


While you are left with your irrational beliefs typical of what a small child would believe.
In the same way a baby believes they are the center of the world, and that everything disappears when they close their eyes, you are living in a fantasy world and its about time you grew up.

and you said you weren't trying to change peoples minds :rolleyes:

Just let them think how they like, and you can think how you like.
If you think they are stupid, try US Politics.

From: mormonman
and you said you weren't trying to change peoples minds :rolleyes:

When did he say that?

From: Dr D. Dervish
I hate these threads you post yakman, keep them to one of them.

People believe in what they want to believe/happen/be. So stop posting these :@

i love these posts. please keep them comeing :P

From: Yakman
you dont know he's given you all that stuff, theres no evidence for any of what you just said.

I'm gonna stick to evidence and logical thinking, as it has worked countless times before and never lets me down.


While you are left with your irrational beliefs typical of what a small child would believe.
In the same way a baby believes they are the center of the world, and that everything disappears when they close their eyes, you are living in a fantasy world and its about time you grew up.

Is it logical everything came by itself :O ?

who's saying, "everything came by itself"

you're putting words into my mouth now, aka strawman fallecy.

Something I've kinda always wondered. How does something give something that it doesn't have? What I am referencing is, how does something non-living generate/evolve into something that is living?

From: Bobarkinator
Something I've kinda always wondered. How does something give something that it doesn't have? What I am referencing is, how does something non-living generate/evolve into something that is living?

An extremely complex series of chemical reactions and a bit of luck in that the right chemicals were in the mix to be used.

Please dont reply that a god is the source of these chemicals or luck, if different chemicals were around, or conditions different we would of evolved differently into different life forms capable of surviving. The conditions we live in are so perfect for life, because everything in these conditions have been conditioned to live in them perfectly.

From: The Claw
An extremely complex series of chemical reactions and a bit of luck in that the right chemicals were in the mix to be used.

Please dont reply that a god is the source of these chemicals or luck, if different chemicals were around, or conditions different we would of evolved differently into different life forms capable of surviving. The conditions we live in are so perfect for life, because everything in these conditions have been conditioned to live in them perfectly.

So you're saying we could just as easily not be here as we are here? That seems like a stupid thing to believe in how we came to be.

the way I see it is,

humans do not know very much at all about abiogenesis (living matter arising from nonliving) and we should put our hands up and admit it, in the same way we admit we dont know much about a whole load of other stuff.

however, many of us have hope that humans will eventually find the answers to these problems.
we rationality behind this hope is that we have discovered the solutions to countless problems before, and there is no reason to think that this problem is very different to all the others.


I suppose you could draw an analogy between waiting for the second coming of jesus and waiting for the solution to any problem to be discovered.
The only difference would be that you can actually become a scientist if you want, and join the others who are working on problems, to help them solve it faster perhaps.

So you put your faith in humankind that they will find a solution. I put my faith in Jesus Christ because for me, that is the solution. The way I see it, it's almost a principle of parsimony kind of thing. I see two options. Wait out on humankind to get a solution, or go with the easier option, that is their already is solution with God.

From: Bobarkinator
So you put your faith in humankind that they will find a solution. I put my faith in Jesus Christ because for me, that is the solution. The way I see it, it's almost a principle of parsimony kind of thing. I see two options. Wait out on humankind to get a solution, or go with the easier option, that is their already is solution with God.

And it's the only good solution there is. ;)

From: Bobarkinator
So you put your faith in humankind that they will find a solution. I put my faith in Jesus Christ because for me, that is the solution. The way I see it, it's almost a principle of parsimony kind of thing. I see two options. Wait out on humankind to get a solution, or go with the easier option, that is their already is solution with God.

So your a typical religious believer? You simply have to have an answer? You cannot just be in a state of not-knowing of how we came to be?

From: Torrent of Flame
So your a typical religious believer? You simply have to have an answer? You cannot just be in a state of not-knowing of how we came to be?

I don't see why I would want to be in that state. If you want to call me a typical religious believer for seeking the right answer then go ahead.

From: Bobarkinator
I don't see why I would want to be in that state. If you want to call me a typical religious believer for seeking the right answer then go ahead.

You're not seeking the right answer, you're seeking an answer that you would like to be true, but is only backed up by a book written almost 2 thousand years ago.

From: Bobarkinator
So you put your faith in humankind that they will find a solution. I put my faith in Jesus Christ because for me, that is the solution. The way I see it, it's almost a principle of parsimony kind of thing. I see two options. Wait out on humankind to get a solution, or go with the easier option, that is their already is solution with God.

i would like to make it perfectly clear that you dont need to put your faith in the scientific method in general life, faith is only needed for answering deep questions about our origins.


also you may want to consider that there is a difference between something that is easy and something that is right.

From: bullzeye95
You're not seeking the right answer, you're seeking an answer that you would like to be true, but is only backed up by a book written almost 2 thousand years ago.

Only in the same sense that you would like your answer to be true.

From: Yakman
i would like to make it perfectly clear that you dont need to put your faith in the scientific method in general life, faith is only needed for answering deep questions about our origins.


also you may want to consider that there is a difference between something that is easy and something that is right.

I think you do need to put faith in the scientific method. I wouldn't believe that it works if I didn't have faith.

Yes their is a difference between something easy and something right. I just really don't see why people make things complicated.

From: Bobarkinator
Only in the same sense that you would like your answer to be true.



I think you do need to put faith in the scientific method. I wouldn't believe that it works if I didn't have faith.

Yes their is a difference between something easy and something right. I just really don't see why people make things complicated.

Because theres no point in believing in something because its easy, or because it makes you feel good to think it's true

From: Torrent of Flame
There is suffering because Eve ate the forbidden apple.

Erm wasn't it Adam hence Adam's apple.

From: Torrent of Flame
1 + 1 = 2, so maths = correct, science works in conjunction with maths, which is correct, which means science is correct.

And like I said earlier, why are there so many non-believers if God is all-powerful? God cannot be perfect, for if he was perfect everyone would believe in him.


EDIT: Pure, how do you mean contradictions? I assume you mean that of the bible, and the bible states God exists, but you cannot base God existing on the bible.

Because people are not thought about God and they don't believe that they will help them in anyway. But if you say the phrase " Oh my God" when some happened or "Oh god yes! Yes please more" when your having sex, you belive in god.

torrent of flame,
your 1+1 argument doesnt make any sense. I dont think its even necessary to explain the extremely flawed rationale behind the absurd conclusion you have come to with that border line retarded statement…

There is absolutely no point in arguing over this because none of you asshats even have the vaguest resemblance of a coherent argument. The fact of the matter is, we are here and none of you can prove from which method or means we have arisen.

I cannot rest my laurels in science because the same group of people that are telling you CO2 emissions is causing drastic climate change (it has nothing to do with the number of sunspots like the mini ice age in the 17th century because of almost no magnetic activity on the surface of the sun) are telling you that we arose from random chance and a primordial soup of amino acids.

Not only does that not make any sense but its completely asinine. To make a judgment like that and for it to have any semblance of a rational conclusion, you must have solid evidence stating that well, it can happen. That evidence could be perhaps it happening again, by intelligent means. Scientists cannot recreate this "phenomena" what makes you think blind luck could do it? Even if they could recreate the phenomena, it only proves that intelligence was needed

We cant even explore the bottom of our own oceans, what makes you think we can make an accurate conclusion about something that happened "millions" of years ago?

From: rogue poser
There is absolutely no point in arguing over this because none of you asshats even have the vaguest resemblance of a coherent argument. The fact of the matter is, we are here and none of you can prove from which method or means we have arisen.

I cannot rest my laurels in science because the same group of people that are telling you CO2 emissions is causing drastic climate change (it has nothing to do with the number of sunspots like the mini ice age in the 17th century because of almost no magnetic activity on the surface of the sun) are telling you that we arose from random chance and a primordial soup of amino acids.

Not only does that not make any sense but its completely asinine. To make a judgment like that and for it to have any semblance of a rational conclusion, you must have solid evidence stating that well, it can happen. That evidence could be perhaps it happening again, by intelligent means. Scientists cannot recreate this "phenomena" what makes you think blind luck could do it? Even if they could recreate the phenomena, it only proves that intelligence was needed

We cant even explore the bottom of our own oceans, what makes you think we can make an accurate conclusion about something that happened "millions" of years ago?

There are massive amounts of evidence that all life as we know it came to its current form through a process of evolution by natural selection.
If you dont believe me I can copy/paste some evidence I posted before.


there is also pretty strong evidence that carbon dioxide causes a greenhouse effect which causes climate change, but thats a subject for another thread.


Isnt it ironic that you dont trust science, yet science made that computer you are using to post this from. Science made everything you use in your normal life including things you dont even know about. Without science you be lucky to live to 20 years of age.

I bet that whenever you are ill, you go to a doctor who tries to cure you. Well he or she got their knowledge and understanding from science.

From: Yakman
There are massive amounts of evidence that all life as we know it came to its current form through a process of evolution by natural selection.
If you dont believe me I can copy/paste some evidence I posted before.


there is also pretty strong evidence that carbon dioxide causes a greenhouse effect which causes climate change, but thats a subject for another thread.


Isnt it ironic that you dont trust science, yet science made that computer you are using to post this from. Science made everything you use in your normal life including things you dont even know about. Without science you be lucky to live to 20 years of age.

I bet that whenever you are ill, you go to a doctor who tries to cure you. Well he or she got their knowledge and understanding from science.

There is no irrefutable empirical evidence that evolution is true. period.

for one second lets look at the most basic life. single celled organisms. The bacterial flagellum is more efficient than the most complex combustion engine. It can rotate at 100,000 RPMs and stop and spin the opposite direction at the same speed, in an instant. It is powered by chemical flow within a single celled organism, 0 emissions….

But that is just random chance. silly me, the most efficient engine on the planet spontaneously came into existence… Just as well the most complex computer (your brain) is a product of random chance, damn seems so logical! now i understand where your coming from…

From: rogue poser
There is no irrefutable empirical evidence that evolution is true. period.

for one second lets look at the most basic life. single celled organisms. The bacterial flagellum is more efficient than the most complex combustion engine. It can rotate at 100,000 RPMs and stop and spin the opposite direction at the same speed, in an instant. It is powered by chemical flow within a single celled organism, 0 emissions….

But that is just random chance. silly me, the most efficient engine on the planet spontaneously came into existence… Just as well the most complex computer (your brain) is a product of random chance, damn seems so logical! now i understand where your coming from…

this is a strawman fallecy.

In fact, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence for evolution that as been peer-reviewed and found to be firm.


Evolution does not work by pure chance, natural selection is quintessentially non-random process.
you might as well say Adam Smith's invisible hand is a random process.

Evolution can explain the complexity and apparent design of all life, including that bacterial flagellum.

From: Yakman
this is a strawman fallecy.

In fact, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence for evolution that as been peer-reviewed and found to be firm.


Evolution does not work by pure chance, natural selection is quintessentially non-random process.
you might as well say Adam Smith's invisible hand is a random process.

Evolution can explain the complexity and apparent design of all life, including that bacterial flagellum.

Im done arguing with you because you not only refuse to present any argument against anything i say, but in the interim somehow assume that telling me what i said is incorrect is some way to advance your position in the argument (that is based on the presupposition that your correct might i add)

Your self righteous attitude and empty words are no way to effectively enter into an argument and be the victor, you only force people away because of your repetitive, blatantly ignorant posts

if you're using a logical fallecy, it would be stupid of me to take the bait.

it seems to me you are running away as soon as someone comes along who doesnt get pulled in by the obvious strawman.


As for empty words, I can present evidence evidence for evolution, but i suspect you wont like that.
ask for evidence and you will get it.



you're the one making assertive statements without any evidence.

From: rogue poser
There is no irrefutable empirical evidence that evolution is true. period.

Yakman. Please present evidence :D

ok i will, lets start with that creature which has feathers, and also has teeth,
its a transitional species between dinosaurs and birds,
modern day birds dont have teeth, they have beaks.

it has the name Archaeopteryx
about 10 complete body fossils of it have been discovered, and large numbers of parts of its body,

(you might be wondering, "how do they know that this tooth belonged to that bird", well the answer is that the scientists that study this know to look very carefully at all the detail, more often then not, a biologists can tell the species just by looking at a tooth, other things are easier, like feathers are very likely to have a pattern in species)

a picture of one is here

note: although you cant see it in the picture, that bird defiantly has teeth.
paleontologists don't look at pictures like we just did, they look at fossils with magnifying glasses, and they defiantly saw teeth

you cant possibly say all 30 or so fossils found are fake, not when they were found by many different people in many different places.
these clearly show a transition between flying dinosaurs and birds.

an artists impression is here
thats only an artists impression, fossils have no way of telling us what colour its wings were or anything, but we can make educated guesses.






now fossils are rare things, less then 1% of dead animals are preserved like this, we are lucky to have as many fossils as we do,
we dont have many complete fossil records of one specie turning into another, like we have archaeopteryx, but we dont have a fossil of the stage after, as far as i know

one complete fossil record we have is the horse, which is my second piece of evidence for today,
we have a complete record showing how to horse went from a small dog-like creature with 5 toes in each leg, to the modern day horse we see today,

a graphical illustration of these finding is found here

if you want to check all this fossils individually, i can offer you their separate wikipedia pages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyracotherium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesohippus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parahippus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merychippus

sorry for the link spamming, i dont have much to say about these fossils except they are one of the complete fossil records we have,
if you're ever in London, you can have a look at them for yourself in London's Natural History Museum


and to my atheist fellows, a good page to read up on transitional fossils is here



^^^
old copypastia is old

Ok first of all, im not against evolution lol, i do think in theory it is logicaly sound.. there are just parts of it that i think sound alittle strange. And since i wasnt around to observe either creation or evolution, i will not take a side unless there was absolute proof to conferm one side.

Ok so about the bird, i have heard of it before and sure it does look like the missing link between birds and lizards, but it could just as easily be a whole new species.

And well, just because there are mid species dosnt mean that God could not have created life, and then life evolved from there (as evolution dosnt actualy adress how life started but how life changed once it was started)

AND im almost 90% sure that the bible has room in it for evolution, ive looked and the only thing i can find is God "creating" things in 7 days. though some translations say nothing about creation and just God "speaking" or planning it.

From: lancerawks
Ok first of all, im not against evolution lol, i do think in theory it is logicaly sound.. there are just parts of it that i think sound alittle strange. And since i wasnt around to observe either creation or evolution, i will not take a side unless there was absolute proof to conferm one side.

you were not around to observe Napoleon were you? why do you accept his existance without absolute proof?

And the fact that the earth is a sphere, you cant see that as you've never been to space.
Does this mean you wont take sides between us and the Flat Earth Society?


you cant deny that evolution by natural selection has massive amounts of evidence supporting it, while creationism has no evidence and does not even count as a science.

From: lancerawks

Ok so about the bird, i have heard of it before and sure it does look like the missing link between birds and lizards, but it could just as easily be a whole new species.

well i think this is slightly misleading.
That bird-like creature is another species, its name is Archaeopteryx.

but the term "missing link" is a bit misleading, you could easily say all living things are missing links.
humans could be the missing link between ape-like creatures some creature which doesnt exist yet.

From: lancerawks

And well, just because there are mid species dosnt mean that God could not have created life, and then life evolved from there (as evolution dosnt actualy adress how life started but how life changed once it was started)

AND im almost 90% sure that the bible has room in it for evolution, ive looked and the only thing i can find is God "creating" things in 7 days. though some translations say nothing about creation and just God "speaking" or planning it.

yes, there are actually many institutions which are both christian and accept evolution, including the church of england and the roman catholic church, because as you've said, evolution leaves enough space for God, albeit a much weakened God.

From: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/2910447/Charles-Darwin-to-receive-apology-from-the-Church-of-England-for-rejecting-evolution.html
Charles Darwin: 200 years from your birth, the Church of England owes you an apology for misunderstanding you and, by getting our first reaction wrong, encouraging others to misunderstand you still. We try to practise the old virtues of 'faith seeking understanding' and hope that makes some amends."

you were not around to observe Napoleon were you? why do you accept his existance without absolute proof?

And the fact that the earth is a sphere, you cant see that as you've never been to space.
Does this mean you wont take sides between us and the Flat Earth Society?

you cant deny that evolution by natural selection has massive amounts of evidence supporting it, while creationism has no evidence and does not even count as a science.

Humans were around during the time of Napolean, we have records or his existance. And as for space we can use teliscopes and satalites as extensions of our eyes and bodies so we can experiance the universe around us without going there. But there were no people to make records of what was happening 3 billion years ago, and unless if im mistaken, 3 billion years is much to long for any natural records to survive like fossles and such. And yes i know evolution by means of natural selection has alot of evidance, and creationism is just one way to read genisis.

well i think this is slightly misleading.
That bird-like creature is another species, its name is Archaeopteryx.

but the term "missing link" is a bit misleading, you could easily say all living things are missing links.
humans could be the missing link between ape-like creatures some creature which doesnt exist yet.

yes your right, but i was just saying a creationist could argue that the Archaeopteryx was created by God and through history has followed a seperate blood line from birds. Im sorry but i dont realy know how scientists peice together the species lineage, other than compareing bone structure and habitats.

and to keep discussion going, consider this example. I just tried to make it up on the spot so it might be alittle shakey but it kinda explains some things ive wondered about how scientists map out the history of speices.
Imagine future humans tried compare our modern day ape fossils to themselves, thinking that they evolved from apes because our bodies are very simular.. but they would be wrong. Apes and Humans are from two seperate blood lines (and i say blood lines cause i dont know the proper word for it) that shared a common ansestor in the distant past. But none of these apes ever would evolve into the futureistic humans.

In the same way couldnt we easily make mistakes when mapping out the current species's history? isnt 3 billion years of evolving much to muddled and complex and lost to time for us to dig up and explain?

so we are all entitled to out beliefs, i believe in an omnicient being it's possible, we have evidence of infinite existing, we don't have proof, and have never claimed to, and just as I've stated countless times in other threads there is know proof of anything to do with the forming of the world be it creation, or be it, um idk honestly what you think it could have been, big bang, sure thats an alright theory but im talking about what created the big bang? where did this lifeless matter come from and better yet how did it convert from lifeless matter to life, it's never been accomplished since in nature. ( in know there are other theories but im just addressing the most comonly known)

if god is infinite you can ask what created him, the answer is simple, god, since god is infinite now i know thats worded funny, but if you see space as ever expanding think of god as space, its there as it has always been, and always will be. now thats merely just an analogy i dont mean to say that space is god.

Im not sure what you are trying to prove here yakman:
1) atheism is not a requirement learning the sciences
2) it cannot be proven or disproven scientifically therefore this thread is merely to take a shot at people you feel are intellectualy inferior due to believing something without absolute proof

heres the direction I would take this argument:
me : I believe God exists
you: What evidense do you have of your claim
me:What evidense do you have of anything you think you know
you:I rely on scientific evidence
me: how many double-blind studies have you performed?
you: well none, but I read about them
me: so you rely on writers you don't know to describe research you don't fully understand, performed by people who often have financial incentives to mislead you?
you: you have exposed me for the hypocrite and fraud that I am, ill be on the lawn.

well obviously it might not go that way but you get my point we both listen to books we don't know the author of, even though science is peer reviewed some sociologists of science argue that peer review makes the ability to publish susceptible to control by elites and to personal jealousy. The peer review process may suppress dissent against "mainstream" theories. Reviewers tend to be especially critical of conclusions that contradict their own views, and lenient towards those that accord with them. At the same time, elite scientists are more likely than less established ones to be sought out as referees, particularly by high-prestige journals or publishers. As a result, it has been argued, ideas that harmonize with the elite's are more likely to see print and to appear in premier journals than are iconoclastic or revolutionary ones

now I am NOT saying science is garbage, and the only thing we should read is the book, on the contrary, Im vastly interested in chemistry and physics, i may not be well versed in it as my study of it is purely recreational, but my point is that unless we do the studies ourselves, we are going off of faith.

now that we have established in this argument there are no sure things and there are certainly no facts, I will go on to say my evidence of god is you Yakman, thankyou for being a sport and providing evidence of god ;p, i look at all life and see evidence of a creator be it some omnicient being, a superior intelligent life form, or the flying spaghetti monster, there was something that had a hand/tentacle/noodle in this, and now i ask what evidence is there that shows you it is a complete impossibility for there to be a creator?

From: lancerawks
Humans were around during the time of Napolean, we have records or his existance. And as for space we can use teliscopes and satalites as extensions of our eyes and bodies so we can experiance the universe around us without going there. But there were no people to make records of what was happening 3 billion years ago, and unless if im mistaken, 3 billion years is much to long for any natural records to survive like fossles and such. And yes i know evolution by means of natural selection has alot of evidance, and creationism is just one way to read genisis.

you've changed your story now, first you needed "absolute proof", and now you only need the written word.

It is possible, although very very unlikely, that everything we know about Napolean is wrong, that every historial source is a complete forgery, or that people were genuinely mistaken.
But in either case, you still dont have absolute proof that Napolean existed and did all those things he did.


In exactly the same way, it is possible, that everything we know about geology, fossils and rocks is wrong or mistaken in ways we havent discovered yet.


Also, you may be intrested in the oldest discovered fossils

From: lancerawks
yes your right, but i was just saying a creationist could argue that the Archaeopteryx was created by God and through history has followed a seperate blood line from birds. Im sorry but i dont realy know how scientists peice together the species lineage, other than compareing bone structure and habitats.

and to keep discussion going, consider this example. I just tried to make it up on the spot so it might be alittle shakey but it kinda explains some things ive wondered about how scientists map out the history of speices.
Imagine future humans tried compare our modern day ape fossils to themselves, thinking that they evolved from apes because our bodies are very simular.. but they would be wrong. Apes and Humans are from two seperate blood lines (and i say blood lines cause i dont know the proper word for it) that shared a common ansestor in the distant past. But none of these apes ever would evolve into the futureistic humans.

sure, but you'd have to accept evolution first, and i understand believers of theistic evolution say something along those lines.

From: lancerawks

In the same way couldnt we easily make mistakes when mapping out the current species's history? isnt 3 billion years of evolving much to muddled and complex and lost to time for us to dig up and explain?

I cant answer this because I dont know about this in detail.

However, what I can say is that the burden of proof lies on you, you have to provide evidence that we've made mistakes and until then, we'll carry on using it as though the mistakes are neglidgable and correcting mistakes if we find them.

From: tazzin44
so we are all entitled to out beliefs, i believe in an omnicient being it's possible, we have evidence of infinite existing, we don't have proof, and have never claimed to, and just as I've stated countless times in other threads there is know proof of anything to do with the forming of the world be it creation, or be it, um idk honestly what you think it could have been, big bang, sure thats an alright theory but im talking about what created the big bang? where did this lifeless matter come from and better yet how did it convert from lifeless matter to life, it's never been accomplished since in nature. ( in know there are other theories but im just addressing the most comonly known)

I dont know, but god is by no means the default solution.

It seems to me you worship a God of gaps.

"Noone can explain X, therefore God did it!"

you worship a god who lives in the areas which humans do not yet understand. As human understanding grows, your god will become smaller and smaller.

Zeus, the ancient greek god of lightning was one example of a god of gaps, he explained that lightning was the anger of the gods.

From: tazzin44

if god is infinite you can ask what created him, the answer is simple, god, since god is infinite now i know thats worded funny, but if you see space as ever expanding think of god as space, its there as it has always been, and always will be. now thats merely just an analogy i dont mean to say that space is god.

This seems to me to be quite airy-fairy and doesnt really answer anything.

What does it mean for something to be infinite?
obviously you could have an infinite number of elephants, but god is not a number or a quantity, but some kind of entity.
So is god infinitly small? infinitly large? infinitly dense like a black hole?


I suppose this contradicts itself, you could ask the following quesiton.

Can (infinite) god create something stronger/faster/bigger/smaller/greater/more then it?

From: tazzin44

Im not sure what you are trying to prove here yakman:
1) atheism is not a requirement learning the sciences
2) it cannot be proven or disproven scientifically therefore this thread is merely to take a shot at people you feel are intellectualy inferior due to believing something without absolute proof

I'm trying to have a philosophical discussion and I resent you continuously trying to second guess me.
I assure you I've got no other agenda.

From: tazzin44

heres the direction I would take this argument:
me : I believe God exists
you: What evidense do you have of your claim
me:What evidense do you have of anything you think you know
you:I rely on scientific evidence
me: how many double-blind studies have you performed?
you: well none, but I read about them
me: so you rely on writers you don't know to describe research you don't fully understand[citation needed], performed by people who often have financial incentives[citation needed] to mislead you?
you: you have exposed me for the hypocrite and fraud that I am, ill be on the lawn.

From: tazzin44

well obviously it might not go that way but you get my point we both listen to books we don't know the author of, even though science is peer reviewed some[weasel words] sociologists of science argue that peer review makes the ability to publish susceptible to control by elites and to personal jealousy. The peer review process may suppress dissent against "mainstream" theories[citation needed]. Reviewers tend to be especially critical of conclusions that contradict their own views, and lenient towards those that accord with them[citation needed]. At the same time, elite scientists are more likely than less established ones to be sought out as referees, particularly by high-prestige journals or publishers[citation needed]. As a result, it has been argued[weasel words] , ideas that harmonize with the elite's are more likely to see print and to appear in premier journals than are iconoclastic or revolutionary ones

I think I'm quite justified in not responding to any of this.

From: tazzin44

now I am NOT saying science is garbage, and the only thing we should read is the book, on the contrary, Im vastly interested in chemistry and physics, i may not be well versed in it as my study of it is purely recreational, but my point is that unless we do the studies ourselves, we are going off of faith.

Even if we do the studies ourselves, we still have to have faith in our measuring equipment, we still have to have faith in our eyeballs and our nerve cells and our brain to not hallucinate.

But at we're getting somewhere.
Correct me if I'm incorrect but you're saying all faith is equal, and that your faith in god is the same as my faith in my measuring equipment, in my textbooks, in my lecturers and in the scientific method in general.

While you could say all faith is equal, some is more equal then others.


The scientific stuff deserves it faith because it simply works. The computer you're reading this from, the food that you eat and the clothes that you wear would be nulled without the scientific stuff.

Religious teachings do not deserve their faith because they dont work. (I'll go into more detail if you want, but it might just end up a copypastia from my old posts)

From: tazzin44

now that we have established in this argument there are no sure things and there are certainly no facts, I will go on to say my evidence of god is you Yakman, thankyou for being a sport and providing evidence of god ;p, i look at all life and see evidence of a creator be it some omnicient being, a superior intelligent life form, or the flying spaghetti monster, there was something that had a hand/tentacle/noodle in this, and now i ask what evidence is there that shows you it is a complete impossibility for there to be a creator?

pityful strawman argument here.

When have i ever said that god does not exist? I can say that it is impossible to prove something definatly does not exist.

All i have ever argued is that god is so unlikely, so almost certain to not exist that there is no point worshipping him, sacrificing for him or praying to him.
All i have ever argued is that with our current level of knowledge, we should live our life as though god does not exist.

I am actually quite pleased with this argument, I wont reply to the entirety of your post as time does not permit but I will continue to hang around.

I dont know, but god is by no means the default solution.

It seems to me you worship a God of gaps.

"Noone can explain X, therefore God did it!"

you worship a god who lives in the areas which humans do not yet understand. As human understanding grows, your god will become smaller and smaller.

I agree with this here, as I do not believe in using god as an excuse to not research something, I do not believe that just because we cannot explain something that it was god, as well on another note do not rule out the possibility, I believe him to be the catalyst in our existance but simply because it cannot be explained by science, but because to me the way the world works, the beuty of mathematics, chemistry, physics and biology all seem to point in the direction of intellegent design, Im not here to persuade you into christianity or any religeon for that matter, but it seems to me that it's far too soon to dismiss a creator.

When have i ever said that god does not exist? I can say that it is impossible to prove something definatly does not exist.

that has been my argument all along, to see your stand on this the same way Im fairly certain to say we are thinking on the same page here, albeit from a diferent book (no pun intended) ideas so close and so far apart make for an interesting debate I must say.

All i have ever argued is that god is so unlikely, so almost certain to not exist that there is no point worshipping him, sacrificing for him or praying to him.
All i have ever argued is that with our current level of knowledge, we should live our life as though god does not exist.

is not everything we have learned about the sciences seemingly just as unlikely? The way everything on this planet seems to work together to sustain life(apart from the way we are destroying the planet)? Now as for your last point I would disagree, should we live like saints or monks in a monestary? No seems a tad drastic, because being a christian is not about works, it' not about how you live your life it's about believing that the world around you isn't some freak accident, or that your existance on earth is meaningless, if we were not created does that not mean our entire existance is worthless?

The universe is infinite, so it is possible that we could have just infinitely got here.

Also, isn't the theory of creation saying that the Earth is 4,000 years old?

From: udie2day
The universe is infinite, so it is possible that we could have just infinitely got here.

Also, isn't the theory of creation saying that the Earth is 4,000 years old?

6000, actually… and in all honesty its quite possible, all of our dating techniques seem to work, but there is no way to test them farther back than an object we know the absolute date of, we know it isnt 100% accurate, so it could be off exponentially, Im not saying if it is or if it isnt, but it cannot be definitive until our tools are as close to perfection as humanly possible

From: tazzin44
I agree with this here, as I do not believe in using god as an excuse to not research something, I do not believe that just because we cannot explain something that it was god, as well on another note do not rule out the possibility, I believe him to be the catalyst in our existance but simply because it cannot be explained by science, but because to me the way the world works, the beuty of mathematics, chemistry, physics and biology all seem to point in the direction of intellegent design, Im not here to persuade you into christianity or any religeon for that matter, but it seems to me that it's far too soon to dismiss a creator.

Even if everything in the universe was elegant and pleasing, that would not imply that God exists.



I can admit that some things are very nice about the sciences and mathematics, but many things are not.

for instance, there exists a fundemental particle that has exactly the same attributes as the electron, except it has 100x (or something) more mass.
In fact, when it was discovered, a physicist said "Who ordered that?!"

Ok maybe thats a bad example but its the best i could come up with at the moment.

From: tazzin44

that has been my argument all along, to see your stand on this the same way Im fairly certain to say we are thinking on the same page here, albeit from a diferent book (no pun intended) ideas so close and so far apart make for an interesting debate I must say.

if its your argument all along, why didnt you take the rational route?

From: tazzin44

is not everything we have learned about the sciences seemingly just as unlikely? The way everything on this planet seems to work together to sustain life(apart from the way we are destroying the planet)? Now as for your last point I would disagree, should we live like saints or monks in a monestary? No seems a tad drastic, because being a christian is not about works, it' not about how you live your life it's about believing that the world around you isn't some freak accident, or that your existance on earth is meaningless, if we were not created does that not mean our entire existance is worthless?

well no, it works so well together to sustain life in this planet because it was built by natural selection. So things that didnt work very well would die out, leaving only things that worked well.

For instance you could say that since the amount of oxygen in the athosphere is so high, that is evidence for intelligent design, but that would be wrong because that oxygen was put there by plants, then living things developed areobic respiration to use oxygen.

Oxygen came first, then areobic respiration.




I disagree that athiesm implies our lives are meaningless.
For instance you said you liked science and maths, now consider that god doesnt exist, does that make you enjoy learning about science and maths any less? It doesnt for me I can tell you that.

Being an athiest doesnt stop you enjoying poetry, enjoying music, getting a tingling feeling when you look up at the milky way or when you look down a microscope. What else is there… sunsets, walking through the countryside, laughing, love, all the usual human joys, friendship.

It doesnt stop you living life to the full, understanding life and being facinated in the world in which you're in, in the limited time you have.

C'mon what more meaning do you want to your life?



I could turn that around on you, since you believe that you'll go to heaven when you die, whats the point of doing anything at all in this life?
why dont you just kill yourself now to get the heaven quicker? Or if you've found out you've got cancer, why dont you jump for joy at the thought of seeing all your dead friends, why do you even bother going to the doctor?
Why dont your friends and relatives pat you on the back saying "Say hello to grandma for me"

A thiest might just say, "I wont bother doing anything with my life, since I'll get a second chance in the afterlife". No point getting a job or anything like that.

You could say a big difference between athiests and thiests is that athiests have a strong sense of living life to the full because its the only one we've got.

There is not necessarily a "God" per se, that is out there, but there is something that creates the fine trails of coincidence that we have no other name for.

why?

Just… things. I wouldn't say it's a single deity, but it is something in your head or some ability people have to save themselves or arrange events. It's fucking scary when you notice it.

I understand that you will see coincidences when you look for them… I'm not saying that those sort of things are arranged. I'm not talking about always seeing the good sides of events that come your way and you can make it out to be "bright" and "happy".

God is the little part inside of you that knows how to pull strings.

so god is inside of you? please elaborate on that.


it seems to me you're just redefining god into something that exists. eg.

1. God is nature
2. Nature exists
3. Therefore God exists.

easy peasy :P

From: Yakman
so god is inside of you? please elaborate on that.


it seems to me you're just redefining god into something that exists. eg.

1. God is nature
2. Nature exists
3. Therefore God exists.

easy peasy :P

Easy peasy pumpkin easy :norris:

It really doesn't take that much deep thinking to realize that at least something is out there.

Pretty much atheists believe it because they don't want to believe it, just because it's easy to believe that he isn't real even though evidence you think you have is easily proven wrong. I haven't yet read an argument that would even test my belief in god. I have seen and experienced some crazy shit when I feel god (Some of it has really freaked the fuck out of me o.o). All things that atheists will never experience…

We are pretty much being tested, and unfortunately, a lot of us are pretty much failing…

At least try it, give it your all, If your not satisfied with it yet, go ahead and stop (Don't go into Catholicism though, they do everything like it is required and a lot of them stop believing because they never get any REAL experience with god). I will be surprised if you legitimately go all out for it and come up empty handed.

I'm an agnostic, and my personal view on the Gods of established religions is that they are contradictory and fickle and confusing, so I dont believe they could possible exist. I guess there maybe could be SOMETHING out there, but it's beyond my comprehension

From: blulightning
but it's beyond my comprehension

Someone gets it:o

Hmm… Personally, I am a catholic, but don't believe in EVERYTHING that is said in the bible, about god, among other scripts with religious value. Maybe you should read this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

I think this is a good representation of what i believe. There is a higher power, REASON leads me to believe this, not blind faith. I will never see a higher power explained in my lifetime with scientific "fact". It is totally beyond anyone's comprehension.

Cut em2 it

I would love to get into this debate with a bunch of kids but sadly the religion debate can be found on nearly every gaming forum with the vast majority of people against the idea of god and I simply don't have the time or the patience for this anymore.. But I will say I am a christian. I just don't see what's so unbelievable about religion. Meh just my point of view… So get high!

http://www.thechurchofgoogle.org/

From: Yakman
why?

Why not? :google:

http://www.thechurchofgoogle.org/

lol ahah funniest thing I've read all day.. thank you :D

I don't think Google is God…:(

From: backfire420
lol ahah funniest thing I've read all day.. thank you :D

You're welcome.

From: IceFire908
I don't think Google is God…:(

Why not? Did you see the proofs?

you dont need proof to believe in something thats y its called faith

So why does it matter if other people think differently? >.>

you dont need proof to believe in something thats y its called faith

+ 1

From: backfire420
+ 1

Read my post >.>

From: J_Pizzle
you dont need proof to believe in something thats y its called faith

Absolutely, 100%, correct. However. How do you decide what god to believe in? You may as well believe that a tin can in a rubbish bin is your god.

From: J_Pizzle
you dont need proof to believe in something thats y its called faith

I believe in God not www.google.com :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam


The truth is out there, go and find it.

Fun fact:

Did you know almost all beliefs and religions including science *cough*Yakman*cough* points towards creation and peace?

From: IceFire908
Fun fact:

Did you know almost all beliefs and religions including science *cough*Yakman*cough* points towards creation and peace?

Fun Fact:
Did you know you have a nice button below your post called "edit", so you won't have to double post :D.

Fun fact: I don't give a F*** :f:

Nah j/k sorry Lol