SRL Archive - News and General

I need to get a move on with this project and can not wait all month while you make a decision.

Deadline for decided involvement is: 24/12/2006

At that time if the community is still undecided I will make a decision to either fly solo or take just the supporting half onboard.

Cheers,
Sythe


P.S.

I find the notion of noble purpose (not working for money) incredibly naïve. Those of you who think in this way are clearly out of touch. Everyone is making money off SRL except you guys. In essence this moronic approach to code control (just handing it out at the door) is the reason we have so many problems in the RS cheating community. Ibot, AGAR and all these stupid bots would not exist if the more intelligent (but clearly less sensible) members of the community did not hand out their code on a platter for the dumb-asses to come along and take, and use, to make money.

Basically if you refuse to accept money, you reject control of your code. This indicates massive ignorance to human nature and those who will make money that they do not deserve off your intellectual material. Don’t be stupid.

[edit by masq: heres the deal in question, keep it in the members area for now please]

Originally Posted by sythe
To the SRL Development Team,

Pay to get ScarScape has returned from the grave after over a year of lying dormant. With the close of my first year of university so comes the free time for me to work on my projects. One of these continuing projects is the infamous ScarScape.

Let me first emphasize that this is ScarScape ONE, not two. Two is on hold right now but I may finish it sometime after this launch. Also before we continue let me make it clear that all the coding and setup for this is already completed.

So what is ScarScape?

Well a picture is worth a thousand words, or so they say…

http://scarscape.us/ssnorthlock.png

No random colour changes.
No random map rotations.
No random 3d world rotations.
Self contained applet, just like RuneScape.

Is it detectable?
The honest answer is: I don’t know, but I don’t think it is.

Pplsuqbawlz has spread a lot of FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) about ScarScape in the past. After reviewing the evidence he has presented to me I have concluded that most, if not all, of the ‘detection code’ he has found are merely obfuscation artifacts which he has misinterpreted.

Personally I believe that ScarScape is no more detectable than the standard RuneScape client. But this is only my hunch, I still retain accounts from the original days of ScarScape. (one of which is featured in that screenshot)

Unfortunately the only way to be absolutely sure of detectablity is to actually go out there and test it.

Are there auths?
Yes. There are two types of ScarScape auth. Normal auth and Scripter auth. Normal auths cost 10 USD per month and are limited to a total of 100 active auths at any one time. Scripter auths are free provided that the auth holder submits two new quality ScarScape SCAR scripts to the ScarScape community each month.

That’s nice but what’s it got to do with me?
Well I’m glad you asked! As you all know SRL is the last surviving SCAR community of any real quality. So naturally when I finished fixing ScarScape I came here. ScarScape needs a team of active scripters to write framework and scripts for it.

The proposal…
Each member of the SRL dev team will receive a (free) Scripter Auth for ScarScape. Normal auths will not be taken in the first month. We will use this time to begin building the framework (some ScarScape specific additions to SRL) and a library of scripts for ScarScape. When this is completed the community will open and allow normal members to buy subscriptions. Everyone on a scripter auth will still have to submit two new good quality scripts per month.

Scripter auths
Scripter auths work in the following way: The scripter submits his/her two new scripts for review. They are reviewed by me (or an administrator of the site) and if they are found acceptable the scripter is awarded a coupon code. The scripter then uses the coupon code with the auth buying interface to extend their auth by one month.

Normal auths
Normal auths are paypal driven, but will not be enabled until late January.


Further incentives

Scripters will have the freedom to write more scripts than just the two required of them per month. These additional scripts can be either sold for a price of the scripter’s chosing in the community forums or given away for free.

Unlimited access to ScarScape day and night – yes its automatically updating.

Having me on the SRL dev team.

Marketable goods. The price of gold on the black-market today is quite low. One of the reasons for this is customers fear they will be banned for accepting macroed or ‘dirty’ gold. Because ScarScape scripts are far less likely to be detected, than say iBot, all macroed goods will be worth more. (provided we market it correctly)

Conclusion
I hope you all consider my proposal carefully. Please vote on it, and I look forward to your communal decision. Also please keep in mind the new ScarScape is still a secret so please don’t go around telling people.

Yours Sincerely,
Sythe

Sorry I missed something, involvement in what?

From: Boreas
Sorry I missed something, involvement in what?

Sythe was directing this at SRL developers, just ignore it ;)

Ah ok, pm button not working…

From: Boreas
Ah ok, pm button not working…

Why PM it to each individual developer, when he can post it here and it can be read by all of us and we can reply back with our opinions and such for all to read.

Plus I think sythe is trying to put pressure on the devs by posting this publicly.

I was thinking post to 1 dev to repost in dev section.

How does publicly help put pressure on if non-devs should 'just ignore it'?

(:p I'm just being a pain in the ass, but it does seem like an unneeded thread.)

Not sure if I am supposed to post this, but because SCAR and SRL are free, I have learned things I would never have learned otherwise…but its not up to me…sorry If I wasn't supposed to post ;)

He's not thatking about charginf money for SRL, he is talking about making money off of "bots" using SRL code for free, and those bots are making money from their freely given SRL code.

Basically he saying we should charge people to use our code in thiner own projects if they produce a profit.

it was established very early on that SRL would be free, and open for everyone to use

if SRL devs cared about money, they would probably get a real job :p
devs have to have a general love for scripting, which is something that your attitude doesnt encourage
i believe that that is the reason that SRL has been so successful is that we try to promote people to learn scripting and shun "leeching"

From: masquerader
if SRL devs cared about money, they would probably get a real job :p

lol very true. (also writing a pay script works)

Offtopic: has there even been a scripter that made 2 solid scripts a month?

From: Boreas
lol very true. (also writing a pay script works)

Offtopic: has there even been a scripter that made 2 solid scripts a month?

You forget that ScarScape scripts take far less effort to make than normal scripts. Making two ss scripts is probably less than half as much work as making one normal script.

Ah ok. Does updating scripts count in the 2? Because after a while, assuming scripters maintain their scripts, it would be exponentially difficult.

I partially agree with the fact that free code is being used in methods that generate money (the sale of something that uses the code[iBot], not the use of the code to make money[autoing]), and like mentioned, scar was meant to be free, and people should not be paying for it( as it states in its news thing); SRL was meant to be free as well. By people selling something that should be free, and making money off others hard work is wrong. This brings me to my second point, but that i am against.

"This indicates massive ignorance to human nature" if you mean by not charging for it yourself, that gives way for others to do it and walk all over you, i dont know, but if meaning that human nature has to always give something and get something monetary in value back, then thats just disgusting commercialism for ya. Its RARE to find anyone now-a-days that does something, or gives, or shares just for the sake of doing it, to help others, spread knowledge. And because of all the commercialized scum out there that take advantage of others generosity, that there is becoming fewer and fewer people that create things that make this world a better place to live in.

Sure people need to do things for 'money' thats how the world works now, only way to change it would be to end it. but to never do something for "noble purpose", is to me horrible, to never help people, or not do something for a greater purpose other than your own gain.

From: IronTeapot
I partially agree with the fact that free code is being used in methods that generate money (the sale of something that uses the code[iBot], not the use of the code to make money[autoing]), and like mentioned, scar was meant to be free, and people should not be paying for it( as it states in its news thing); SRL was meant to be free as well. By people selling something that should be free, and making money off others hard work is wrong. This brings me to my second point, but that i am against.

"This indicates massive ignorance to human nature" if you mean by not charging for it yourself, that gives way for others to do it and walk all over you, i dont know, but if meaning that human nature has to always give something and get something monetary in value back, then thats just disgusting commercialism for ya. Its RARE to find anyone now-a-days that does something, or gives, or shares just for the sake of doing it, to help others, spread knowledge. And because of all the commercialized scum out there that take advantage of others generosity, that there is becoming fewer and fewer people that create things that make this world a better place to live in.

Sure people need to do things for 'money' thats how the world works now, only way to change it would be to end it. but to never do something for "noble purpose", is to me horrible, to never help people, or not do something for a greater purpose other than your own gain.

It never ceases to amaze me that you (people) do not realize that your product (SRL) has one purpose and one purpose only. To make the end user money. To gain them wealth, however you want to look at it.

You are saying “oh we don’t do it for the money” but your product, by its very nature, generates wealth and revenue for the end user. What’s more, it generates that wealth at the expense of the company that owns the game.

By failing to charge for your product you fail to control it. Methods of control are varied and complex. But the best method of control is to charge for it. Governments know this, hence fuel tax, alcohol tax, tobacco tax.

I say you lack understanding of human nature because noble purpose has no place in a profit driven community. By all means help the helpless, but you and I both know that RuneScape cheaters are by no means helpless.

Put simply SRL is being used by scripters less intelligent than yourselves to make scripts which they then sell for real money to the next level down. In a sensible, natural, system of reward the people doing the hard work reap the rewards. By giving your product out free the rewards are up for grabs by the next stupidest person. So really what your noble purpose ends up being is you handing the potential profits down to the next group of people. And that group is more than willing to ride it dry and move on to the next free lunch.

You don’t run a large community for three years without realizing the way of things…

The three groups of freeware open source: consumer, scalper, creator.
The three groups of profit driven enterprise: customer, employee, owner.

Which system produces better end product?
Which system has more control?
Which system is superior?

Your chain makes sense, however its only applies to a small percentage of the scripts using SRL, because most are free.

I never would have started playing RS if it was not free.

I never would have started using SCAR if it was not free.

I never would have started using SCARSCAPE if it was not free.

I never would have started using SRL if it was not free.

Now I'm an SRL Dev, and I've never made a dime off my work, and never intend to. Trying to insult people that aren't in this for money is pretty stupid if you ask me, especially when you are offering to work together.

If Jagex followed your logic, they would end the free-to-play game and end your precious RS cheating tomorrow. After all, they are allowing scalpers like you to make money off their work.

I like sythe, I have talked to him quite a few times, however ScarScape is about 1 hour max of coding, it is insanely easy to replace all the Math.random()'s with a constant value, which is what Sythe does. It is definatly nothing worth paying for, and if you guys want to have something like this for free all you have to do is ask and I shall provide, open source. Since none of the code belongs to jagex you can actually legally host it anywhere, but I can even host it if you want me to.

In conclusion, charging for scarscape is flat out stupid, but I have no problem with sythe being a dev if you guys want, just the monetary part.

To sythe, 'why open source?' you say:

From: http://www.opensource.org/
The basic idea behind open source is very simple: When programmers can read, redistribute, and modify the source code for a piece of software, the software evolves. People improve it, people adapt it, people fix bugs. And this can happen at a speed that, if one is used to the slow pace of conventional software development, seems astonishing.

We in the open source community have learned that this rapid evolutionary process produces better software than the traditional closed model, in which only a very few programmers can see the source and everybody else must blindly use an opaque block of bits.

From: moparisthebest
I like sythe, I have talked to him quite a few times, however ScarScape is about 1 hour max of coding, it is insanely easy to replace all the Math.random()'s with a constant value, which is what Sythe does. It is definatly nothing worth paying for, and if you guys want to have something like this for free all you have to do is ask and I shall provide, open source. Since none of the code belongs to jagex you can actually legally host it anywhere, but I can even host it if you want me to.

In conclusion, charging for scarscape is flat out stupid, but I have no problem with sythe being a dev if you guys want, just the monetary part.

Mopar, you are a fairly cool guy but I think your argument is misleading. You naturally assume that everyone has the required level of skill and knowledge to create a RuneScape bot from scratch, where as, in actual fact very few of us do.

There may be 5 – 10 people in the entire RuneScape cheating community, including the people who are not often seen who have the innovative programming talent required for this sort of development.

By making it sound simple and downplaying the amount of knowledge and problem solving ability needed to create such a thing from scratch you not only insult me (and I take offense) but also you insult yourself and the other relatively small group of intelligent programmers present in the community.

If you fail to understand the practical aspects of profit driven enterprise then that is your own problem, but you should not try to impinge on my plans (as I do not impinge on yours) or interject with your own software development ideologies. Freeware open source developers are idealists and are usually only held back by their own inability to realize that hard work should generate returns.

Again I stress that freeware, and particularly freeware open source, is a naïve approach to software development (and particularly cheat development). If the author does not make money out of the project then the scalpers will. And if you disbelieve this then you have only to look at any quality free software to see people (who are not the authors) making money off them.

Linux for example is coded almost entirely by linus. Who is hired by redhat. Who are a company which makes its money selling support for linux. Here is someone who could be worth a similar amount to the owners of Apple or Microsoft, but because of his stupid ideals he’s stuck working for a company he should own.

If you want an example of a freeware open source organisation who have actually undergone this realisation during their active existence as a community you need look no further than Mozilla. Who of course are now a profit based corporation. And looking back further you can see more examples of what I am trying to explain to you people.

Netscape open sourced their browser. Along came Mozilla. Now Mozilla is a profit based corporation. Is this not exactly what I have been talking about? Where everyone is making money off the original product except the authors!

Those of you who do not see through the wallpaper need to expand your thinking outside the rigid rule set of programming. To succeed in the world one must understand business. And to understand business one must escape these foolish ideologies of freeware open source software, this concept of ‘its free for everyone and anyone to use’, because that is never the case. The reality is someone will always be making a buck off you and it is your choice to let them take you for a ride or not.

The problem is - how would you charge an include..
And is it fair to charge an include? It's just an include and people have never charged includes before - also I don't think it was meantioned to help anyone..
Most includes has been used for a pay script..
I don't care what the include is used for…
Also - what you ask for us is if we want to script for you or not?
Most SRL scripters are partly inactive - they don't produce script anymore..
But you could use the scripts in the members section?
Or perhaps hire some of the new scripters that made some of the scripts in the member section?
Also 2 scripts a month is somewhat ignorant..
Many people don't finish more than one script in their scripting period - and it's not like it's a job to script for scarscape using 5 hours a day..
You can't produce a quality script in less than 2 months..

From: Lorax
The problem is - how would you charge an include..
And is it fair to charge an include? It's just an include and people have never charged includes before - also I don't think it was meantioned to help anyone..
Most includes has been used for a pay script..
I don't care what the include is used for…
Also - what you ask for us is if we want to script for you or not?
Most SRL scripters are partly inactive - they don't produce script anymore..
But you could use the scripts in the members section?
Or perhaps hire some of the new scripters that made some of the scripts in the member section?
Also 2 scripts a month is somewhat ignorant..
Many people don't finish more than one script in their scripting period - and it's not like it's a job to script for scarscape using 5 hours a day..
You can't produce a quality script in less than 2 months..

I'm getting a little bit tired of this.

A scarscape script takes no longer than half a day to write and perfect because you can base everything on unique colours.

You would be scripting for yourselves anyway, I can't really see the problem with sharing your work.

I am not asking you to sell your include, that would be very difficult because of the way SCAR is designed. I am merely explaining why selling scarscape is a logical and natural thing to do.

From: sythe
I'm getting a little bit tired of this.

A scarscape script takes no longer than half a day to write and perfect because you can base everything on unique colours.

You would be scripting for yourselves anyway, I can't really see the problem with sharing your work.

I am not asking you to sell your include, that would be very difficult because of the way SCAR is designed. I am merely explaining why selling scarscape is a logical and natural thing to do.

Making the script is half the work - the planning and to figure out what to script - within one month almost every possible script would be made..
But of course, I could release a script for you to use - but it will not be designed for ScarScape..

I also think ScarScape should be sold - Jag seems to fuck up everything thats available for them

From: Lorax
Making the script is half the work - the planning and to figure out what to script - within one month almost every possible script would be made..
But of course, I could release a script for you to use - but it will not be designed for ScarScape..

I also think ScarScape should be sold - Jag seems to fuck up everything thats available for them

There will always be more scripts to be made. If there are no requests from paying users then I will not force members on scriper auths to submit anything. But I doubt this will ever be the case. The game has a large number of skills and there are many ways to go about doing each of them. I think you vastly underestimate the total number of combinations of skill, method and location.

In addition scripts must be maintained. 'Fixing' a broken script (of which you are the author) would be classed as submission of a new script.

From: sythe
Deadline for decided involvement is: 24/12/2006

Why the sudden rush? You popped out of nowhere, I made the thread, its being used heavily, lots of arguments are put forward, which is not bad at all for a small dev community (30 users max.). And here you go marking out a deadline? I dont understand that…Please enlighten me.

From: sythe
I find the notion of noble purpose (not working for money) incredibly naïve. Those of you who think in this way are clearly out of touch. Everyone is making money off SRL except you guys. In essence this moronic approach to code control (just handing it out at the door) is the reason we have so many problems in the RS cheating community. Ibot, AGAR and all these stupid bots would not exist if the more intelligent (but clearly less sensible) members of the community did not hand out their code on a platter for the dumb-asses to come along and take, and use, to make money.

Basically if you refuse to accept money, you reject control of your code. This indicates massive ignorance to human nature and those who will make money that they do not deserve off your intellectual material. Don’t be stupid.

Wow, I hope I didnt get this right: are you calling me naive, out of touch, moronic, ignorant and stupid? Moreover, SRL is the reason for problems in the RS cheating community? Please rephrase. Why so insultive?

Yes, SRL is based on ideological grounds. Surely, there is nothing wrong with that. I could give many historical/sociological/psychological reasons for the legitimity of non-profit organisations, but I think in this case (SRL) I dont see anything worth selling. Besides how could we possibly charge people for an include for Freeware?
You say lots of people use SRL to their own advantage. So let them. I dont care. SRL is made for the benefit of cheating, for me, for you, for all to grab. Thats beside the point. Point is: we created a great platform for the mature cheaters. All good guys sooner or later pop up, and the rest hopefully will tweak a little on their social and programmatic skills. Maybe they will even learn a lilttle about life too. Out of Touch? I dont think so. We just dont care about money. Need money? Get a job. Thats what I have been doing for the past 25-years. All the forums/auths/scripts/ generally any kind of RS-money making, wouldnt ever be enough to pay my bills. And I personally dont see any satisfaction going through all the trouble of selling a script or an auth, though I can understand that for the younger amongst us it is tempting…

Now, I dont hold any personal grudge towards you, on the contrary, I have deep respect for your endeavours, but you are giving me the feeling our ways are just to far apart. You asked for my help, I am offering it to you, but a little patience would have been the wisest choice at this moment.

Fawk!

Frankly I speak the truth. I take back nothing, read of it what you will. I had expected this partnership deal to be smooth as you are all intelligent people. But so be it.

I will wait until the deadline I have laid out. But I have other things to get on with. And this project will launch with or without SRL.

Sure it will. I will help in any way I can, you know that I hope…(I am not offended in any way ) But some of the things you said dont add up in my perception.
- Why do you say that SRL has brought trouble to the cheating community?
- What is exactly wrong with our naive, out of touch, moronic, ignorant and stupid ideology? Only the fact that others abuse it? (Frankly -being a cheater- I see that as a compliment)
- Why the sudden rush?

This is the last post I will anwser in this thread.

From: WT-Fakawi
Sure it will. I will help in any way I can, you know that I hope…(I am not offended in any way ) But some of the things you said dont add up in my perception.

Rest assured that I know you are not offended.

From: WT-Fakawi

- Why do you say that SRL has brought trouble to the cheating community?

This is putting words in my mouth. If you had read more closely what I said was:

In essence this moronic approach to code control (just handing it out at the door) is the reason we have so many problems in the RS cheating community.

The approach is to blame, not SRL specifically. The approach is to blame, not SRL specifically. And I was pointing this out because the same thing which drives the reasoning behind this approach also drives the reasoning behind the people who oppose this project.

- What is exactly wrong with our naive, out of touch, moronic, ignorant and stupid ideology? Only the fact that others abuse it? (Frankly -being a cheater- I see that as
a compliment)

Again you are putting words in my mouth. At no time did I say that. I take offense on an intellectual level that you feel you can dismiss my argument and disrupt my ability to generate a counter argument by misquoting me repeatedly.

The basic problem with your approach, as I have explained is that it renders you unable to control your creation. You would not give a child a gun, or some weapon that you have invented. This is no different. Not your code specifically, but code written by the elite in the cheating community, can be used to harm Jagex. (And is used to harm Jagex, by iBot and has been in the past by ayran and so on.) Not only does this harm the host entity off which our communities survive it also harms the overall community itself. It essentially disrupts the power structure and how trading is performed.

Look how little RuneScape gold is worth in this day and age. That is a direct result of a few people making a lot of money off ayran. Whereas if ayran had been pay to get, and therefore controlled, this would not have happened because the author would have been able to counter the problem by closing registrations to use the bot.

- Why the sudden rush?

Because I am sick of RuneScape cheating. I am sick of getting very little return for hard work. I am sick of the overwhelming ignorance and dealing with children. This will be my last project and I want to get a move on with it so I can set it in motion, leave it to run its course, and move onto bigger and better things.

I hope I have answered all your questions and I hope you can make an informed and unbiased decision about the partnership. I am open to negotiation but be warned my patience wears thin.

Until the 24th,
Sythe

Enough said. Thank you.