SRL Archive - Discussions & Debates

An argument for God’s existence is the ontological argument. This argument is unlike the cosmological and teleological arguments in that it does not argue from evidence in the natural world. Thus, it is not a “cause and effect” argument.

The ontological argument can be stated in this way: “God is the greatest being imaginable. One of the aspects of perfection or greatness is existence. Thus, God exists.” Or put another way—“The fact that God can be conceived means that he must exist.”

This argument for God’s existence was developed by the twelfth century theologian and philosopher, Anselm. It is based on Anselm’s declaration that God is “that which nothing greater can be conceived.”

The ontological argument has been very controversial. Even many who believe in God’s existence question its validity. A contemporary of Anselm named Guanilo responded to Anselm. Guanilo said that one could imagine a perfect island but that did not mean a perfect island exists. Others have said you can imagine a unicorn but that does not mean unicorns exist. Thus, many challenge the idea that the idea of God must mean that God exists.

We talked about this in RS today. If this is true, and someone thinks up a perfect being, then surely everyones perfect is different? And if something is perfect then everyone would have to believe in such because if something is perfect this must mean it is 100% believable.

This, IMO, cannot be used as an argument for God's existance as he cannot exist, because if he was perfect, everyone would believe in him, so if people do not believe in God he cannot exist as he is not perfect.


Discuss.

My Theory: The sweat on my balls smells like bread because the same yeast grows on both my balls and in the bread. My reason for this is because of the wide usage and propogation of it, and the fact it was originally cultured from air samples.

“God is the greatest being imaginable. One of the aspects of perfection or greatness is existence. Thus, God exists.” Or put another way—“

That is one of the stupidest things I've ever read. "god exists and is great because he is great and exists"

(Braces for flame)

You do know that this is going to turn into a circular argument right? One side will use one argument and the other will use another one without even thinking of the opposing ideas because they 'know' that they are right and have the moral high ground.

I personally think that your point is rock solid, but another person will just come in and say "But…but…God is mysterious in his ways" or "God is beyond reason and so cannot be logically defined" and then go on to tell you that hell looms on the horizon because you questioned the Almighty…

Opinions can be argued; they cannot be proven. The problem with religious arguments is that people refuse to compromise or be swayed on their views, leading to hate and stubbornness.

My Theory: When we imagine something it is actually created in our mind. This gives it a foot hold in reality even if it is just in the electronic signals being sent through your brain.

If you think about something enough you brain is actually rearranged. The neurons will build stronger paths of the thoughts. Example: If you read a story every day, eventually you will memorize that, and more of your thoughts are influenced by that story.

When the paths in your mind become well-enough established, you may begin to think "This thought or memory is so strong, it must have a basis in reality" , causing you to trick yourself into believing a thought is a reality.

There is no Argument.
"God" is merely a figment of imagination. There is no "all powerful being", no heaven or hell. My personal thoughts are that religion is just another way for people to gain power.
Thats how it was created, and that is why it is still practiced, because of greed.

People generally want power and money, so, they claim they know the teachings of 'God' to sway people different ways.

From: N C D S
There is no Argument.
"God" is merely a figment of imagination. There is no "all powerful being", no heaven or hell. My personal thoughts are that religion is just another way for people to gain power.
Thats how it was created, and that is why it is still practiced, because of greed.

People generally want power and money, so, they claim they know the teachings of 'God' to sway people different ways.

Hello NCDS,

I appreciate your comment on the matter.

But, it seems very ignorant to simply state that God is a "figment of imagination". I do not mean to insult or be critical of your statement in anyway, this is just what I observe from it and this is what the statement conveys to me.

but nonetheless, I will simply discuss with you, my point of view on the matter of your other statements.

It is quite evident that Christianity was and is used for power by different people, and I could argue that they are not Christians, but that is a different topic, xD …. It is obvious that they use "Christianity or religon" for that reason of their own good/power/money/, and I will not doubt this. But that does not mean that Christianity or God in its entirety is false and I will explain why.

Any belief or point of view can be twisted so that it can be used for personal gain/power/money. This can be seen through out history, including Christianity. The Crusades can be an example, People that use raising a "church" only to bring good money in is another example. Both of these examples are totally against biblical teaching and against authentic Christianity. And you could argue that point.
The bible is very clear about people who have claimed to be from God, but are actually using it for there own gain. It is interesting that even this matter is seen and condemned in the bible.

But, I could also say that the Atheist belief was used by Hitler in-order-to get the power he wanted, and to also justify his own actions. I do not want to use this example to state that atheism is false, because that wouldnt make sense, because all the other religions/beliefs have been used for this very same purpose, For power and money as you stated.

And I could also go into Islam, having their suicide bombers and believing if you kill a Christian you get 100 virgins in heaven or something, in their extreme cases of belief.

I would say that it is a clean slate, this does not prove anything, but proves in my mind that men are ultimately, cruel. Including myself of course. I am a man.

I am glad to share my thoughts with you.

umwoG

corn

The bible is a metaphor.

you're never going to disprove it…I would have thought you might have learnt this from the 100s of threads already in this section….

^^ Blast from the past, there have been many a-topic about this debate and the simple answer is as Rkroxpunk said. There isnt a solid 100% proof for or against the existance of God. Only what people believe or chose to believe.

If it makes someone a better person to others by believeing in a "God" then is that a bad thing? Does it have to be proven wrong? If good comes from that belief then let it stand. It's when extremists who take aggressive action to profess their faith turn up. Then its no longer a debate about the existance of God.

I think i went a bit of topic :$

~Spaz

From: [S]paz
^^ Blast from the past, there have been many a-topic about this debate and the simple answer is as Rkroxpunk said. There isnt a solid 100% proof for or against the existance of God. Only what people believe or chose to believe.

If it makes someone a better person to others by believeing in a "God" then is that a bad thing? Does it have to be proven wrong? If good comes from that belief then let it stand. It's when extremists who take aggressive action to profess their faith turn up. Then its no longer a debate about the existance of God.

I think i went a bit of topic :$

~Spaz

Hello Spaz,

Good point, but I kind of disagree to a certain point and I will tell you why and how so this is.. But thank you for giving us your insight.

I would agree that in the context of different beliefs, using extremists to prove them wrong cannot ultimately prove the belief wrong, this is simply bad thinking, you must take in account everything. Yes there are extremists in most "beliefs", There are those who obey what their belief strongly asks of the believer. It is important to look at their own lives and their beliefs and why they believe it.

But on to the point you made,

"If it makes someone a better person to others by believing in a "God" then is that a bad thing? Does it have to be proven wrong? If good comes from that belief then let it stand."

I wanted to comment mostly on the attitude of that statement. The motive of that seems flawed. If I join some belief of a God only because it brings good to me then what about truth? There must be an absolute truth. an belief that is right. What I am trying to say is that what we believe, we must be fully convinced that it is true in our own lives so that we can be content to live in it. I dont know if you wanted to convey this , but this is what I got out of that statement.

Let me give an example from my own life. Before I was a Christian or became a Christian. I told myself I was a Christian, but I clearly wasnt. This could be seen in my own actions. I did not care about the God I believed in. If I truly believed that this almighty God existed, I would live according to that truth in my own life. I lived as if I was an Atheist. Careless of the things of God, I would go to church yes, but my heart towards God was a cold and hard as a rock. I say this as I look back, knowing that I do struggle with these heart issues, but I know now that God is worthy to live for, that my life is fully his and that I can trust in him to continue to grow me more in love and knowledge of him because he has changed me. I say this with a basic knowledge of God and if you have no idea what I am talking about at this point, just send me a pm and I will try to explain some things (ex: being changed by God, growing more in love and knowledge of God…).

Lots of typing lol. I am filled with joy with you all to type this, because through it, I can learn more about this gracious God I serve and have joy in him and what he has done for me and how this same joy he has given me can be yours. :-)

peace

corn

From: The Claw
That is one of the stupidest things I've ever read. "god exists and is great because he is great and exists"

(Braces for flame)

Hello Claw,

The point of that comment was pronounced a different way to help us understand what he was trying to say.

That the very reason that the definition of God cannot be humanly understood in a sense that he is too big to understand proves his existence.

This statement is obvious to me, but to someone that is an Atheist, it is "stupid". To an Atheist, God does not exist, thus he isn't there. So this statement is quite irrelevent. And I assume this is the reason you stated this Claw, which is fine I will not flame you cause of it, I respect your opinion. :-)

hope that helps a lil,

corn

Sure, a rhetorical argument from a 12th century theologian may seem very simplistic and illogical to us today.

In the 12th century, doctors believed that madness was caused by demonic possession, and that epilepsy was caused by withdrawal of the soul from the body. We don't reject medical beliefs now because medical beliefs 900 years ago were simplistic and illogical.

It's important to remember that theologians have had 900 years to improve their rhetorical arguments, and many of them are now quite sophisticated, and can provide insight into some of the major questions people have about life and existence that many scientific disciplines can't even begin to address.