SRL Archive - Discussions & Debates

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/28/gaza.israel.strikes/index.html

So isreal blocks food and health care to gaza. And the gazan's launched 50 SMALL pipe rockets at them, barely destroying a house. And isreal rapes them.

Naw they took it too seriously

Israel, Is a nice country, even though there is war in some parts of the country. A place worth to visit.

Iran supplies Hamas (gazan so calles 'terrorists') with rockets. The 'terrorists' have to fire, they have no other option. Palastinians have lived ,bullied, by Isreal for 40 years. I mean if our country was being bombed then we would fight back aswell.

I think all fighting countries should just sit down and do peace. Most of this crap is over religions that started thousands of years ago, and they should ignore their differences and get along.

There was a cease fire in place for the last 6 months. Then Hamas decided they didn't want the cease fire anymore and ended it. If they wanted peace, why the heck would they do that?

Here in the US we have some individual citizens that are mad about the border enforcement with Mexico, so they go down to the border and patrol it themselves. If they were blowing up illegal aliens with homemade rockets, they would be immediately arrested and probably given the death penalty.

Does Hamas ever arrest someone that is launching rockets into Israel? If so, I'd love to see a news story for it.

People may condemn Israel as savage, but it's a government doing it rather than individual citizens. If Hamas would control the people they claim to represent, the situation would be much more peaceful. But they either can't or won't, so them being in power only contributes to the instability.

I agree completely with Tarajunky.

Isreal is a terror. It was put there by foreign colonial powers to seperate and weaken the Arab states. Many millions of dollars of donations help Isreal murder, rape and pillage. The American Isreali Public Affairs Committee is one of the most powerful lobby groups in history, it is supported by a minority and exerts massive influence in American politics.
Condoleezza Rice and Barack Obama are well-known to support Isreal and AIPAC.
This unique union of America and Isreal allows them together to illegally occupy land.
America has been talking about spreading democracy to the middle-east, and yet when Hamas is elected in arguable the most fair elections in the whole of the Arab world, America and Isreal refuse to even talk to it, what else can Hamas do if they cannot talk? The harder they try to not hear them, the louder Hamas will shout.
I support the Palastininan cause.

===================================================

The Palastininan people are a terror. They cause terrorism and death of hundreds of innocent Isreali civilians. You could quite convincingly argue that the 11th September attack on New York and 7th July attacks on London were partly motivated by a desire to help the Palastininan cause.
You have a choise here, you can either support a secular, free, forward-thinking and productive society, or you can support a fanatical, religious, Anti-semitic and truely backward society which would have women not be allowed to go to school and would ban alcohol.
My personal choise is that the values of the Israelites are much more similar to mine then the values of the Palastininans.
Hamas is clearly a fundamentalist islamist group, they have no part in government and will only cause more unstability in that region. They do not even recognise the existance of Isreali state. As someone already mentioned, if Hamas wanted to stop the rocket attacks, they could, but the rocket attacks continue, so clearly Hamas wants to cause death and descruction to many Isreali civilians.
I support the Isreali cause.

=========================================================

As you can see, its reasonably easy to argue for both sides.
In my opinion they are both as bad as each other, I support neither.

i think Hy71194 has hit the nail on the head, all these problems seem to be caused by differences of religion.
Isreal == jewish
Palastine == muslim

As a witty comedian once said,
"When you fight a war over religion, then you're just fighting over who has the best imaginary friend."

Good points Yakman, except neither side believes their beliefs are "imaginary".

From: Yakman

i think Hy71194 has hit the nail on the head, all these problems seem to be caused by differences of religion.
Isreal == jewish
Palastine == muslim

IMO, religion isn't at the core of the Palestine-Israel conflict. The bottom line is that Israel was carved out of Palestine and given to the Jews/Zionists by a foreign government (England). Bottom line, that's what the Palestinians are pissed off about.
The religion becomes a factor when all the Arab/Islamic countries band together against Israel. However, they will never commit to an all-out war against them because a) They will lose (Six Days' War) and b) The US backs Israel always. I think that to some extent, Israel's actions are justified. Terrorists bombard their citizens with impunity because their host countries won't or can't take action against them, but I feel that Israel never has the right response. Air strikes and artillery against civilian areas, completely ignoring the UN (killing their workers, too). I don't know what the solution is for peace there, but it has to begin somewhere with Israel recognizing Hamas a legitimately elected political party.

OP has misspelled "Israel" in title :o

i saw some really cruel pics today…

was really sad little kids/adults/women…

half of there body was missing.
half of there face was missing - a kid..
a man's Head was melted….-wtf!!! unidentified wep :S high tech vs mini weps.
it was horrible..

I think it is totally uncalled for for isreal to completely trash the gaza strip. They both need to work together, open up the borders, and talk. I do however, think that the retaliation was called for, just not to seriously.

~thed

IMO, religion isn't at the core of the Palestine-Israel conflict. The bottom line is that Israel was carved out of Palestine and given to the Jews/Zionists by a foreign government (England). Bottom line, that's what the Palestinians are pissed off about.

Ya, in other words, because of religion. The whole "chosen land" thing.

Mm, I still disagree… of course there were Zionists and the whole "promised land" thing, but the majority of the Jews in Israel moved there to escape pogroms and persecution. So although they are there maybe partly because of religion, I don't think that's why the Palestinians are angry at them.

From: kingarabian
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/28/gaza.israel.strikes/index.html

So isreal blocks food and health care to gaza. And the gazan's launched 50 SMALL pipe rockets at them, barely destroying a house. And isreal rapes them.

The United States has a couple people die in a building hit by a plane and they enter two wars killing 10's of thousands of civilians, not even catching the supposed mastermind behind the plan, and spending billions of dollars to support war profiteers. And Israel is raping people?

If it wasn't Israel it would have been Palestine eventually. The entire area is in so many conflicts it gets ridiculous. Israel has to fight back or the attacks will just keep continuing. If a fly bites you many times after being shooed away frequently, you kill it. I'm not saying what they did was right. I'm saying that any other nation in the world would have done the exact same thing.

You mess with the bull, you get the horns…

Is anyone else confused why Hamas now REFUSES to accept a cease fire?

Israel is slaughtering their militants and civilians by the hundreds, and blowing up Gaza where these people have to live. Meanwhile Hamas has killed 5-10 Israeli soldiers and murdered 3-4 innocent Israelis with their rocket attacks.

Any rational person would say that Hamas should be begging for a ceasefire, but they refuse any that have been offered.

What's their line of reasoning for continuing this conflict when they aren't hurting Israel whatsoever and they're getting routed?

I feel that tarajunky, Yakman, A G E N T, and Aser all hold the real conversation to this thread……

From: tarajunky
People may condemn Israel as savage, but it's a government doing it rather than individual citizens. If Hamas would control the people they claim to represent, the situation would be much more peaceful. But they either can't or won't, so them being in power only contributes to the instability.

Well… that surely seems to be how it is and has been for quite a while now…

From: Yakman
Isreal is a terror. It was put there by foreign colonial powers to seperate and weaken the Arab states. Many millions of dollars of donations help Isreal murder, rape and pillage…..
……America has been talking about spreading democracy to the middle-east, and yet when Hamas is elected in arguable the most fair elections in the whole of the Arab world, America and Isreal refuse to even talk to it, what else can Hamas do if they cannot talk? The harder they try to not hear them, the louder Hamas will shout.
I support the Palastininan cause.

===================================================

The Palastininan people are a terror. They cause terrorism and death of hundreds of innocent Isreali civilians. You could quite convincingly argue that the 11th September attack on New York and 7th July attacks on London were partly motivated by a desire to help the Palastininan cause.
You have a choise here, you can either support a secular, free, forward-thinking and productive society, or you can support a fanatical, religious, Anti-semitic and truely backward society……
……Hamas is clearly a fundamentalist islamist group, they have no part in government and will only cause more unstability in that region. They do not even recognise the existance of Isreali state. As someone already mentioned, if Hamas wanted to stop the rocket attacks, they could, but the rocket attacks continue, so clearly Hamas wants to cause death and descruction to many Isreali civilians.
I support the Isreali cause.

=========================================================

As you can see, its reasonably easy to argue for both sides.
In my opinion they are both as bad as each other, I support neither……

- A little bit exaggerated?… maybe Israel was "put" there to provide a 'haven' to a hurt people… [sarcasm]just maybe [sarcasm]
- See… now that was not an exaggeration…

From: A G E N T
IMO, religion isn't at the core of the Palestine-Israel conflict. The bottom line is that Israel was carved out of Palestine and given to the Jews/Zionists by a foreign government (England). Bottom line, that's what the Palestinians are pissed off about.
The religion becomes a factor when all the Arab/Islamic countries band together against Israel. However, they will never commit to an all-out war against them because a) They will lose (Six Days' War) and b) The US backs Israel always. I think that to some extent, Israel's actions are justified. Terrorists bombard their citizens with impunity because their host countries won't or can't take action against them, but I feel that Israel never has the right response. Air strikes and artillery against civilian areas, completely ignoring the UN (killing their workers, too). I don't know what the solution is for peace there, but it has to begin somewhere with Israel recognizing Hamas a legitimately elected political party……

- All I have to say for the first part…."…(-_-)… are you serious?"
- When did England (as you have it….all by themselves) "carve/give" the Jews/Zionists the nation of Israel?….
- That… well .. Aser talks about that… but maybe they are just trying to "piss them off" … however… [sarcasm… but true]it this has been going on way to long to just be a personal grudge against who has the bigger nose[sarcasm but true]…maybe .. just maybe it is religious…

From: Aser
The United States has a couple people die in a building hit by a plane and they enter two wars killing 10's of thousands of civilians, not even catching the supposed mastermind behind the plan, and spending billions of dollars to support war profiteers. And Israel is raping people?

If it wasn't Israel it would have been Palestine eventually. The entire area is in so many conflicts it gets ridiculous. Israel has to fight back or the attacks will just keep continuing. If a fly bites you many times after being shooed away frequently, you kill it. I'm not saying what they did was right. I'm saying that any other nation in the world would have done the exact same thing.

- Do you even know the number of people who died? Do you know what the current state of the USA would be like if events like that were just shrugged off?….
- AAhh… my point exactly… and now you have just crossed over your own idea… you disproved yourself… I didn't even have to…

EDIT: (I was typing when this was posted..)

From: tarajunky
What's their line of reasoning for continuing this conflict when they aren't hurting Israel whatsoever and they're getting routed?

- Israel has not been hurt at all? really?

One psycho with a gun could kill more people in 5 minutes than Hamas has killed in this entire conflict. So yes, I would say that in the context of a military conflict, Israel hasn't been harmed whatsoever.

In the context of a normal situation, having rockets fired on your citizens by Hamas is definitely unacceptable and requires a response. But in the context of a war, Hamas is utterly incompetent and powerless.

From: tarajunky
One psycho with a gun could kill more people in 5 minutes than Hamas has killed in this entire conflict. So yes, I would say that in the context of a military conflict, Israel hasn't been harmed whatsoever.

In the context of a normal situation, having rockets fired on your citizens by Hamas is definitely unacceptable and requires a response. But in the context of a war, Hamas is utterly incompetent and powerless.

See. Do you guys even care to do some re-search on WHY hamas was firing rockets at Isreal? And why do the american news channels continue to state that only 10-13 isreali's have died? Its over or near 100 SOLDIERS. Tara, hamas aint week. They started the war using air-strikes. Im sure thats more then enough to get hamas out of the way. They dropped 85k tons of bombs on gaza already. If isreal was so strong then how come its sending ground troops? Usually thats the last option during a war. Isreal kills the Palestinian people for a reason. The more people it kills, the more pressure it puts on hamas to surrender. But they wont obviously. Isreal is not the criminal here. Its just defending its people in a very very severe way. The real criminals are the arab leaders. The leaders of egypt and saudi arabia and so on. They dont help at all.

From: kingarabian
See. Do you guys even care to do some re-search on WHY hamas was firing rockets at Isreal? And why do the american news channels continue to state that only 10-13 isreali's have died? Its over or near 100 SOLDIERS. Tara, hamas aint week. They started the war using air-strikes. Im sure thats more then enough to get hamas out of the way. They dropped 85k tons of bombs on gaza already. If isreal was so strong then how come its sending ground troops? Usually thats the last option during a war. Isreal kills the Palestinian people for a reason. The more people it kills, the more pressure it puts on hamas to surrender. But they wont obviously. Isreal is not the criminal here. Its just defending its people in a very very severe way. The real criminals are the arab leaders. The leaders of egypt and saudi arabia and so on. They dont help at all.

Israel are sending in ground forces because foreign relations are telling them to stop killing innocent people with air strikes. Ground troops also occupy space, so Israel ground troops in Gaza push the palestine militants back away from the Israeli border. Its not the Arab Leaders fight. Hamas air strikes? WTF? If you can call crudely made bombs an air strike when they are flung across the border…

Back in June, 2008, Egypt helped broker a 6-month cease-fire agreement between Israel and Hamas, the ruling body in the Gaza Strip. Though the cease-fire was broken several times by both sides, it largely held. Toward the end of the cease-fire in December, Israel, while closing Gaza's borders since November, indicated that it might extend the agreement, if Hamas ceased all Qassam rocket attacks. Qassam rockets are the crude but deadly homemade missiles often launched towards Israeli territory (over 3,000 times in 2008 alone). Hamas leaders, angered by the blockade and seemingly little political headway made over the past 6 months, recently stepped up rocket attacks on Israel once again

Egypt had already stepped in earlier and the cease-fire was created, I dont see why Egypt should step in again, it's obvious neither side listened anyway. And Airstrikes again.. lol… Hamas are not weak,you are right, they are a Militant Terrorist group. Do you notice how news stories never talk of how many Israeli's have died? This is because there are hardly any anyway! I dont know where in the world you got 100 from.. Israel is not the criminal? Well defending yourself in such a way as they are is indefinatley incriminating, in my opinion.

From: Torrent of Flame
Israel are sending in ground forces because foreign relations are telling them to stop killing innocent people with air strikes. Ground troops also occupy space, so Israel ground troops in Gaza push the palestine militants back away from the Israeli border. Its not the Arab Leaders fight. Hamas air strikes? WTF? If you can call crudely made bombs an air strike when they are flung across the border…



Egypt had already stepped in earlier and the cease-fire was created, I dont see why Egypt should step in again, it's obvious neither side listened anyway. And Airstrikes again.. lol… Hamas are not weak,you are right, they are a Militant Terrorist group. Do you notice how news stories never talk of how many Israeli's have died? This is because there are hardly any anyway! I dont know where in the world you got 100 from.. Israel is not the criminal? Well defending yourself in such a way as they are is indefinatley incriminating, in my opinion.

Ah see. Ever tried to go to aljazeera al alam or al arabiya news stations? Maybe if you stopped watching the american news channels then you will know more. The reason why hamas was hitting rockets at isreal, is because isreal closed 5 gates were aid and food comes thru. And they wont let any food or aid come thru, for the past 6 months.

Yes it is the arab leaders fault for backing isreal. The troops killed more civilians then the air-strikes did…

I'm glad the Israelis are fighting back. They have been persecuted etc. for a long time, it's time they make a stand, and they should have everyone's support.

Cut em2 it

From: kingarabian
Ah see. Ever tried to go to aljazeera al alam or al arabiya news stations? Maybe if you stopped watching the american news channels then you will know more. The reason why hamas was hitting rockets at isreal, is because isreal closed 5 gates were aid and food comes thru. And they wont let any food or aid come thru, for the past 6 months.

Yes it is the arab leaders fault for backing isreal. The troops killed more civilians then the air-strikes did…

Well I'm British so gj there :D I know, Israel stopped humanitarian aid coming into the Gaza Strip, and Hamas retaliated, but I thought you supported Israel? What side are you on? And you say about these foreign news stations? Are they Israeli news stations? Or arabic? Propoganda much? They hype stuff up to make Israel seem like less of a bad guy.. not unheard of..

And WTF? What a bullshit statistic? The deathtoll is at about 1000 people in Gaza and Israeli's? 10. Dont believe me?

Israel says 10 Israeli soldiers and three civilians hit by Hamas rockets have been killed so far in the campaign, a casualty rate that the Israeli public seems willing to accept, our correspondent said.

Source? http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/2009114752139705.html


100 my arse. I used your own source against you.

From: Cut em2 it
I'm glad the Israelis are fighting back. They have been persecuted etc. for a long time, it's time they make a stand, and they should have everyone's support.

Cut em2 it

Wait your not serious right?

Kk lets look at some statistics:

From the year 2000.

0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 18,147 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967.

The Israeli unemployment rate is 7.3%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 23%.

Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land.

1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.

Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none. (View Source)

Chart showing that the United States gives over 26 times more assistance to Israel than to Palestinian development organizations.

During Fiscal Year 2007, the U.S. gave more than $6.8 million per day to Israel and $0.3 million per day to the Palestinians.

8,341 Israelis and 37,034 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

1,062 Israelis and at least 5876 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.

123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,450 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

Causes of Deaths of Israeli Soldiers

Committed Suicide 30
Illness 14
Accidents 26
Terror Incidents 6

http://www.ifamericansknew.org

And if that isnt enough, the jews themselves are against Isreal:

king, wtf? At first you were saying Israel were not the criminals here, now your saying they are?

Hamas are fireing rockets into Isreal for months, as soon as Isreal do some thing about it every one goes sick at them.

EDIT: and kingarabian tell me one thing, after looking at this bias website… who started this shit?

From: jakeyboy29
Hamas are fireing rockets into Isreal for months, as soon as Isreal do some thing about it every one goes sick at them.

EDIT: and kingarabian tell me one thing, after looking at this bias website… who started this shit?

Because Hamas killed………


3 people.


Israel killed…. 984 and counting.

From: kingarabian
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/28/gaza.israel.strikes/index.html

So isreal blocks food and health care to gaza. And the gazan's launched 50 SMALL pipe rockets at them, barely destroying a house. And isreal rapes them.

lol, i loled so hard. your funny. if i punched u 50 times. you wouldnt punch me?

and they fired 50 missiles killing people. are they ment to wait till more people are killed?

I agree with Hy71194; and while I support Israel over Hamas, I definitely think Israel has gone too far in its offensive.

Torrent of flame not the website. The channel ;). You need satellite tv to watch it though.

EDIT: my bad i exaggerated. 50 isreal soldiers killed and 300 wounded. 3 civilians dead.


Those statistics are from the year 2000… Read it better.

Jake Im not answering your post since your clearly biased.

And NO I dont support isreal. And yes I hate isreal and dont acknowledge it as country. But if the arab other countries were to support gaza then none of this would of happen. Isreal and palestine are both at war for 60 years, so isreal will be killing palestinian people; since thats the nature of war. But all the other countries continue to support isreal and not gaza/hamas. This is why this is happening. You know if egypt or isreal were to open one of there gates during the 6 month peace period, hamas would have not shot one missile at isreal. But isreal and all the most arab countries dont want hamas as the government. Even though hamas won the election from the vote of ALL palestinian people.

From: kingarabian
Torrent of flame not the website. The channel ;). You need satellite tv to watch it though.

EDIT: my bad i exaggerated. 50 isreal soldiers killed and 300 wounded. 3 civilians dead.


Those statistics are from the year 2000… Read it better.

Jake Im not answering your post since your clearly biased.

And NO I dont support isreal. And yes I hate isreal and dont acknowledge it as country. But if the arab other countries were to support gaza then none of this would of happen. Isreal and palestine are both at war for 60 years, so isreal will be killing palestinian people; since thats the nature of war. But all the other countries continue to support isreal and not gaza/hamas. This is why this is happening. You know if egypt or isreal were to open one of there gates during the 6 month peace period, hamas would have not shot one missile at isreal. But isreal and all the most arab countries dont want hamas as the government. Even though hamas won the election from the vote of ALL palestinian people.

I am serious, I think you are terribly wrong. I will acknowledge that the Israelis have killed more people. But the Hamas have been playing the guilt game. They purposely set military positions next to schools etc. so that Israel is blamed for innocent killings. What did Israel do to Hamas that would provoke them, if they did? Even if I tried to knife you, but I missed, wouldn't you want to try to knife back?

Cut em2 it

From: kingarabian
Torrent of flame not the website. The channel ;). You need satellite tv to watch it though.

EDIT: my bad i exaggerated. 50 isreal soldiers killed and 300 wounded. 3 civilians dead.


Those statistics are from the year 2000… Read it better.

Jake Im not answering your post since your clearly biased.

And NO I dont support isreal. And yes I hate isreal and dont acknowledge it as country. But if the arab other countries were to support gaza then none of this would of happen. Isreal and palestine are both at war for 60 years, so isreal will be killing palestinian people; since thats the nature of war. But all the other countries continue to support isreal and not gaza/hamas. This is why this is happening. You know if egypt or isreal were to open one of there gates during the 6 month peace period, hamas would have not shot one missile at isreal. But isreal and all the most arab countries dont want hamas as the government. Even though hamas won the election from the vote of ALL palestinian people.

seems fair to me

According to this story, 94% of Israeli Jews support the operation in Gaza.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231950849022&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

70% said that the ground operation was necessary.

80% say that any cease fire must include the release of an Israeli soldier that was kidnapped and has been held captive by Hamas for over 2 years now.

Israeli Arabs feel exactly the opposite, with 85% saying they oppose the military action. And 80% say a ceasefire should be signed without demanding the release of the kidnapped soldier.

It's clear that Jews and Arabs have pre-defined notions about how things should be. I don't see why so many people attack non-Jews and non-Arabs for trying to contribute an objective point of view.

It seems to me that most of the non-Jew, non-Arab world supports Israel more than Hamas. And it seems that the only people that think Hamas is justified are other Arabs.

From: jakeyboy29
seems fair to me

Lol The stress is getting to me :D

Anyways I think everyone on both sides should stop.

But I dont see it happening anytime soon.

Until everyone stops being a dumbass and waging war without a valid reason, we cannot achieve our full potential as a species.

From: Cut em2 it
They purposely set military positions next to schools etc. so that Israel is blamed for innocent killings.
…
Cut em2 it

Even if this is true, Israel seems to not care about firing artillery into residential areas. I think two days ago they fired on a UN aid stockpile with white phosphorous shells, setting fire to the supplies.

I really don't understand what the Israeli policy is supposed to be here. First, they blockade the Gaza Strip so that no aid/supplies can get in, except through tunnels. Next, they invade the place and start destroying houses and the said tunnels. As much as I respect their right to defend themselves, I don't see why they are doing this to Gazans.

EDIT:

From: Al-Jazeera & news agencies



Israel's security cabinet is expected to decide to halt the war on Gaza at a meeting on Saturday, Israeli sources have said.

The move would be seen as being preferable to entering an Egyptian-brokered formal ceasefire with Hamas, unnamed sources told the AFP and Reuters news agencies.

The 21-day-old conflict has left more than 1,150 Palestinians dead, at least a third of them children, and devastated infrastructure within the densely populated territory.

"The security cabinet will convene and that is where a decision will be made," Tzipi Livni, Israel's foreign minister, told Israel's Channel 10 television when asked if the government would end the conflict.

"I have said the end doesn't have to be in agreement with Hamas, but rather in arrangements against Hamas."

A unilateral ceasefire would allow Israel to avoid agreeing concessions with Hamas, such as easing the blockade of the Gaza Strip, which has prevented medical aid and basic supplies reaching the Palestinians.

…Yeah. I suppose that's good news.
In other news,
lolwut

There is outcry and anti -isreal protests in alot of countries , so in i dont think alot of countries support israel.

How would you like it if jew came into usa and kicked you all out/ tore down your houses?

Hamas is sending homemade missles as a result of the illegail occupation of there land…

Agent is right. They do fire from schools and mosques etc.

There was a MASSIVE anti israel protest down here the other day. With some bullshit (christian) religous leader pouring red paint all over a monument of a famous jewish person (Sorry i didnt catch the name) But i mean. Fuck me. Really? That person is dead! Anyways back to topic

I dont support either. Israel more then likely would have taken palestine eventually. Now they just have a reason to. Hamas continually breaks ceasefires. It doesnt matter the scale, if canada started firing small rockets into the US for the past 3 years. And killed around about 8 people (Depending on reports and which news channel), dont you think USA would have done something about it?

But on the other hand, israel shouldnt be there in the first place. The land IS palestine, not israel.

From: djcheater
There is outcry and anti -isreal protests in alot of countries , so in i dont think alot of countries support israel.

How would you like it if jew came into usa and kicked you all out/ tore down your houses?

Hamas is sending homemade missles as a result of the illegail occupation of there land…

If you looked (more) back in history, you would have found out that the land first belonged to Israel and then they got kicked out by Romans or something so technically it's their "promised land" or something.

But really, does it matter? I mean, if the UN can't stop both sides then what the hell do you think you can do?

And man that protest was pretty crazy (the other one).

From: Ramage
If you looked (more) back in history, you would have found out that the land first belonged to Israel and then they got kicked out by Romans

that was 2000 years ago,

2000 years ago the americas was owned by the native americans, but then the europeans came and kicked them out.
by your logic all the white people in america should go back to europe and leave the land to the people who where first there.
but it doesnt happen does it?!

people move around all the time,
the british isles used to belong to the anglo-saxons, but then the normans came and conquered it, before that it belonged to the celts or something.

similar story with australia, south america and cuba.

From: Ramage

or something so technically it's their "promised land" or something.

who promised them that land? God, it was written in the bible.

and we're all 100% sure that God exists, and that a book that has been translated many times and misunderstood in so many ways can be trusted.

From: Yakman
that was 2000 years ago,

2000 years ago the americas was owned by the native americans, but then the europeans came and kicked them out.
by your logic all the white people in america should go back to europe and leave the land to the people who where first there.
but it doesnt happen does it?!

people move around all the time,
the british isles used to belong to the anglo-saxons, but then the normans came and conquered it, before that it belonged to the celts or something.

similar story with australia, south america and cuba.



who promised them that land? God, it was written in the bible.

and we're all 100% sure that God exists, and that a book that has been translated many times and misunderstood in so many ways can be trusted.

Yeah well in 1948 Israel came back and kicked the Palestinians out didn't they? Just like how the Americans, British and half the countries around the world did it. So I can't see why the everyone is complaining about Israel doing it when their ancestors did it themselves.

I'm not going to go on a debate about God or the Bible in this thread, but I don't see the Bible being translated from Chinese to English or something but direct translation from Hebrew or whatever it is. The paragraph you've been trying to rebuke wasn't even part of my argument, I was just pointing out the "facts" ;)

I think it would help a lot if they all became one unified country, and tried to get along. Yes it is hard to get past certain feelings for each other, but it IS possible, having done this many times myself. All it takes is a collective effort by gaza and israel to come up with a plan that will help both of them survive instead of killing each other.

~thed

From: ~~Joker~~
i saw some really cruel pics today…

was really sad little kids/adults/women…

half of there body was missing.
half of there face was missing - a kid..
a man's Head was melted….-wtf!!! unidentified wep :S high tech vs mini weps.
it was horrible..

Well its their fault that they hide their weapons in public places..

From: Ramage
Yeah well in 1945 Israel came back and kicked the Palestinians out didn't they? Just like how the Americans, British and half the countries around the world did it. So I can't see why the everyone is complaining about Israel doing it when their ancestors did it themselves.

I'm not going to go on a debate about God or the Bible in this thread, but I don't see the Bible being translated from Chinese to English or something but direct translation from Hebrew or whatever it is. The paragraph you've been trying to rebuke wasn't even part of my argument, I was just pointing out the "facts" ;)

Get your facts right. Israel didnt boot out the palestines. Jewish people were given Israel after the genocide of WWII, to try to make up for all of the deaths. Nothing to do with Israel taking it back, we told the palestines to give it to them. Their ancestors did nothing.

New story today.

"Israel plans ceasefire, Hamas vows to fight on"

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE5053R720090117

I think Israel is just plain smarter than Hamas here. They unilaterally stop all military actions, declare that they have accomplished all their objectives, say they want a ceasefire, and then keep the blockade in place until Hamas agrees.

What rational argument does Hamas have to continue talking tough and keeping a blockade in place, when their own people are suffering so much because of it? They can't point to any sort of military success to justify dragging out the conflict any longer.

And they can't really blame Israel for all the ongoing suffering from the blockade, because Hamas could agree to a ceasefire tomorrow and have it lifted. Hamas looks like a bunch of childish idiots if you ask me.

Hamas are terrorists. They cannot be seen as weak, like all terrorist organisations.

theres a difference between religious zionism and political zionism.

I don't care if Hamas sends bombs into Israel. But, what Israel are going against humanity. They are killing innocent children/women for what?
Bull that is one heap of bull. Israel is the tyrant!
Go here for more info.: http://inminds.co.uk/

:p Tarajunky knows nothing. He thinks that killing innocent women/children for no reason is right. Fool~

from the site: Yesterday (15 July 2006) Israel gave the people of Ter Hafra village in South Lebanon two hours to leave their village or face destruction. Those who were able to flee went to the nearby UN base. The UN refused to shelter these children, not wanting to take responsibility after the Qana massacre in 1996 when Israel massacred the civilians taking shelter in the UN headquaters. Left on the open road without shelter these fleeing civilians made easy picking for the Israeli airforce with their US donated F-16 fighter planes. Most of the victims were children, their bodies burnt in the precision targeted missle attack. The photos are from Associated Press but it seems no western media is prepared to show them

From: Torrent of Flame
Get your facts right. Israel didnt boot out the palestines. Jewish people were given Israel after the genocide of WWII, to try to make up for all of the deaths. Nothing to do with Israel taking it back, we told the palestines to give it to them. Their ancestors did nothing.

Uh really? I know I'm ignorant but I remember that the UN offered them a couple different countries (Madagascar and Uganda or something like that), they declined and wanted Palestine. So they set up some fund and started immigrating to Palestine until the partition plan where they got the all the decent land. They then had the war of independence in 1948 where they declared independence (does that count as taking over?) and then secured the place with 3 more other major wars where Israel won (convincingly) in all of them.

Like I said, my facts may be wrong but it was something like that was it not? I just don't see why everyone is complaining about Israel taking over the land which supposedly belongs to the Palestinians when such actions were done hundreds of years ago by their ancestors. Hypocritical, no?


Anyway, I don't support either of them but I'm just a little pro-Israeli but then again, I don't like politics and I'm ignorant so what the hell do I know? =/

Tarajunky knows nothing. He thinks that killing innocent women/children for no reason is right. Fool~

Hold on, so when the nukes were dropped on Japan, the civilians weren't innocent? (And to further emphasize this point, the surviving victims from the first bombing in Hiroshima escaped to Nagasaki only to be bombed again) And the people who still suffer from leukemia and thyroid cancer today from the bombings deserve it?

Or HEY! THE TWIN TOWERS WERE DESTROYED!! LETS KILL HALF THE IRAQI POPULATION AND GET OIL FROM IT TOO LOL LOL LOL. Honestly, if Israel responded like how Hamas has been attacking, the death rate would be in the hundreds of thousands. Who's the fool now?


And this is how we sum of the current crisis:


Killing innocents? Tyrants? Who are the ones using their civilians as a line of defense knowing they will die instead of protecting them?

Uh really? I know I'm ignorant but I remember that the UN offered them a couple different countries (Madagascar and Uganda or something like that), they declined and wanted Palestine. So they set up some fund and started immigrating to Palestine until the partition plan where they got the all the decent land. They then had the war of independence in 1948 where they declared independence (does that count as taking over?) and then secured the place with 3 more other major wars where Israel won (convincingly) in all of them.

Like I said, my facts may be wrong but it was something like that was it not? I just don't see why everyone is complaining about Israel taking over the land which supposedly belongs to the Palestinians when such actions were done hundreds of years ago by their ancestors. Hypocritical, no?

Nowdays, that isnt the correct thing to do? Maybe hundreds of years ago conquering was acceptable. Its like me walking into your house and telling you to fuck off or die. I'm sure you would moan at me taking over land which isnt mine..


BTW, I thought you said the land was occupied fully in 1948.. and now its hundreds of years ago?

isrealis havent always won wars,
one called the Yom Kippur War

i think hes saying that hundreds of years ago, europeans colonised other lands and took them over, and now those europeans are complaining about isreal.

From: Torrent of Flame
Nowdays, that isnt the correct thing to do? Maybe hundreds of years ago conquering was acceptable. Its like me walking into your house and telling you to fuck off or die. I'm sure you would moan at me taking over land which isnt mine..


BTW, I thought you said the land was occupied fully in 1948.. and now its hundreds of years ago?

Wait.. So after Europe and stuff finished colonizing they're like "Ok from now on colonizing and taking over land is not allowed". What the fuck? And I would have moaned about you taking over land which isn't yours a couple hundred years ago too.
And try and understand my argument before rebutting.

And here's a little story I just made up:
Your house was owned by a Jew 20 years ago
Then the Jew was forced out (Holocaust)
Then, when the Jew comes back, he finds you living in the house
Who owns it?

From: Yakman
isrealis havent always won wars,
one called the Yom Kippur War

i think hes saying that hundreds of years ago, europeans colonised other lands and took them over, and now those europeans are complaining about isreal.

If I remember correctly in the Yom Kippur War, the Arabs did a surprise attack when the Israelis were fasting or something and pushed them back. But then the Egyptians thought they were cool and went past the protection of the SAMs or whatever and got.. owned. They were then pushed back and yeah.

So let's sum the war up:
1) Cowardly Attack
2) Arrogance is a bitch
3) Screwed up the most massive attack in the war apart from the initial one (Rabinovich, 355.)
4) Gained no territory
5) The Arabs lost


Stats from Wiki

Israel:

2,656 dead
7,250 wounded
More than 340 captured
400 tanks destroyed
600 tanks damaged/returned to service
unknown number of tanks captured
102–200* planes destroyed

Arab nations:

8,528*–15,000** dead
19,540*–35,000** wounded
1,200^–2,250** tanks destroyed or captured
370^–432** planes destroyed

Removed the [x] tags and some of the sources (Arabs had like 3 different sources) but otherwise those stats are taken directly from Wikipedia.

Think about it, if Israel had lost a war, would they still exist? ;)

Yom Kippur was very different to Six Day

before the Yom Kippur War, Isreal's military was seen as totally invincible. All that changed.

Isreal took 2 or 3 days to mobalise their army because it was their holiday,
even though the Isrealis fought off the Arabs, the Arabs could still claim victory.

Isreali's lost some land, they also had many protests against them from their own people.
the Isreali Prime Minister and the Cheif of Staff resigned when the war was over.
Shmuel Gonen, commander of the Southern front was forced to leave the army.

Yeah that's true, but they were attacked when fasting. I'm not Jewish or anything but I believe that it makes you hungry as hell :p

Also, the reason why they resigned was NOT because Israel's army was shown as 'weak' but because Egypt managed to launch a surprise attack on Israel without them knowing. That is why their Prime Minister, Golda Meir resigned.

She already partially resigned after the Black Friday event at the 1972 Munich Olympics where the 11 athletes were killed and the rescue mission failed.

If you look at the stats I posted above, Israel had around 1/4 of the deaths the Arabs did.

And anyway, didn't Israel and Hamas already declare ceasefire? =/

I think the Black Friday rescue failure was the Germans' fault, actually…
Anyway, back on topic, Hamas sure seem full of themselves for a group who essentially just got their asses handed to them. They had to get the last word by firing rockets before agreeing to the ceasefire, and today their leader (or maybe it was the leader of Islamic Jihad) claimed that "God has given [them] a great victory".

I don't support Israel, but I don't support Hamas either, if their leaders are going to be this stupid.

Another new story out today.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292910127&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Iran is now trying to re-arm Hamas with even more potent weapons, and longer range rockets.

Apparently Iran developed the military plan for Hamas, and is trying to figure out why it failed.

It was based on 3 goals.

1. Create a network of tunnels that would be used to supply weapons, conceal Hamas militants, and give them a better opportunity to launch sneak attacks and attempt kidnappings of Israeli soldiers.

2. A barrage of rocket attacks against innocent Israeli civilians to demoralize the Israeli populace.

3. Create a "victory image", like a bombed out, smouldering Israeli tank, or a helpless Israeli soldier being held hostage by a group of Hamas fighters brandishing guns and/or weapons that could be used to torture or kill him.

Obama got it right today when he told Muslim leaders that, "your people will judge you on what you can build and not what you destroy."

It seems that the only think Hamas and Iran know how to build is propaganda to keep their people oppressed and ignorant.

It is natural for humans to want more and more power, it is part of our nature, but as my posts before, israel needs to sit down and talk to gaza and work things out. I can do it, they should be able to also ;)

~thed

Bah. Let them battle it out. If Gaza is going to be ignorant enough to let Israel walk all over them then so be it. Its not out fault that the Palestinian's are stubborn Terrorists. I feel sorry for the Gazan people in this whole situation because they arent all terrorists but some of the government militants have fucked the civilians over bigtime with the rockets and shit.

It matters NOT what Israel have done in the past, but surely if Gaza resign a proper treaty would be signed?

I've stopped blaming Israel. Gaza should see some sense.


And at the Iran thing, they are Arabic, the 'war' thing between the Arabs and Israel failed, so maybe the Iranian government is looking for different ways to get in the war? Or maybe they've just seen their oppotrunity to be greedy fuckers and fuck some more people over by supplying them with weapons. What can WE do with this debate? Nout. Stop being so uptight about the whole thing and leave it to Gaza and Israel to sort out their problems.

From: Torrent of Flame
What can WE do with this debate? Nout. Stop being so uptight about the whole thing and leave it to Gaza and Israel to sort out their problems.

That's what I said at the beginning but no one listened :( Was an entertaining debate though, I was bored as hell.