SRL Archive - Discussions & Debates

1). God is a necessary being.

You are not a necessary being. The world will get along perfectly well without you. You can either exist, or not exist, and the world will continue on. God is not such a being, as will be explained a bit later.

2). God as so defined either exists or does not exist.

According to the definition provided by the first point, God either exists, or doesn't exist.

3). If God exists, he necessarily exists.

If God exists, he has to exist.

4). If God does not exist, he necessarily does not exist.

If God does not exist, he cannot exist.

5). The idea of God is not self-contradictory.

The idea of God has no contradictions in it. It is not impossible for God to exist.

6). God exists.

Since it is not impossible for God to exist, and since if God does not exist, he cannot exist, God exists.

Basically:
- The concept of God is not logically impossible.

- If God exists, then he HAS TO exist, and it is impossible for God to not exist.

- If God does not exist, then it is impossible for God to exist.

- The idea of God is not impossible, so the last post is refuted. Therefore, God exists.

Nothing you said makes logical sense.

If something is not impossible to exist, and it doesn't exist, then it doesn't exist. That doesn't mean it exists. That means it isn't possible for it to exist.

From: Esteban
1). God is a necessary being.

You are not a necessary being. The world will get along perfectly well without you. You can either exist, or not exist, and the world will continue on. God is not such a being, as will be explained a bit later.

…what? I'd get along perfectly fine without religion and God "in the world." This one makes no sense and I pretty much stopped reading after here.

Well, I know that god exists because someone or something would have to make Existance. Something or Someone must have made the universe even if the Big Bang is true, Something must have started/made the things that made the big bang. I believe in the big bang, and god. I just believe that god made the big bang.
Who really wants to get all caught up in that religious stuff anyways though? I dont.

-Andy

The concept of God is not logically impossible.

…Scientific evidence says otherwise

If God exists, then he HAS TO exist

that isn't proof, thats like saying;

"Im tired, so i MUST be tired"

@ contradictions :- the bible defies the laws of physics, when Moses split the sea
that is a contradiction to reality, in a way

also, the legends of god and religion are, in the least, outdated.
they were written in times when people still thought the world was flat, which has since been proved wrong too


I myself still ponder on existence of religion, i LIKE to think that a god exists, but its so illogical. it seems that santa and god are in the same boat

merry xmas

So… your saying because it's not impossible for something to exist, it must exist?

How about this?

In an infinitely large universe, everything that could exist would exist, just by chance. Even if the probability of something occurring were infinitesimally small, given an infinite number of chances, it must occur.

Therefore, the existence of anything, including an all powerful God, within our universe is not limited to our capacity to understand the nature of the universe we live in, but only by the fundamental laws of the universe itself.

Our own limited understanding, and arrogance at somehow believing that we know enough to define the conditions of our existence, are more of a pitfall and stumbling block than an asset.

1). This apple is not necessary

The world doesn't care if it exists or not

2). This apple is as so defined either exists or does not exist.

It can't half-exist

3). If this apple exists, he necessarily exists.

If this apple exists, it has to exist.

4). If this apple does not exist, he necessarily does not exist.

If this apple does not exist, it cannot exist.

5). The idea of apples are not self-contradictory.

Apples can make perfectly logical sense.

6). This apple exists.

Since it is not impossible for this apple to exist, and since if this apple does not exist, it won't exist, this apple exists.


But wait!
I have no apple. There must be something wrong here then.


Mind expanding step/point 6?

…is tarajunky for or against?? lol

widget. genius.

it's funny, cos that's what esteban is trying to say

From: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

ARGUMENT FROM SHEER WILL
(1) I DO believe in God! I DO believe in God! I do I do I do I DO believe in God!
(2) Therefore, God exists.

.

From: benjaa
…is tarajunky for or against?? lol

widget. genius.

it's funny, cos that's what esteban is trying to say

From what I understand, tara's post pretty much is just a really fancy way of saying that we cannot prove nor deny the existence of God.

From: Method
…what? I'd get along perfectly fine without religion and God "in the world."

I disagree. Without faith in something better after death, faith that things could be better by holding to morals and values, faith that good will triumph over evil, and without faith that justice will prevail in the end, the world would be a horrible place to live in.

Imagine a place where there was never a belief in a higher being, there would be no morals, values, or justification to be peaceful. Survival of the fittest at its best. Survive at all costs, there would be no need to think of the feelings of others. You just need to live out your life FOR YOU. Those who may have disagreements and those who decide to live for morals (in the midst of this chaotic world) would be killed no doubt. There would be no place for peace in a dog eat dog world. And in this case a man eat man world.

However, I agree with you on one point. This world would be much better off without religion. It is religion that has caused countless barbaric wars and the deaths of so many innocents due to their cult followings. Religious leaders tell you what to believe as if they had the voice of their God or Higher being coming through them; telling them that those who do not agree with your values will go to hell and it is not a sin to kill them.

Just remember that there are thousands and thousands of people who are in far worse situations than us right now. Third world countries with no running water, dirty clothes, very little food, and with wars ravaging around them. What do these people have though to keep them going if not for their belief in a higher being or a better place beyond this disgrace of a world. Hope keeps people going when times are tough. Just because you are "getting along fine without god and religion" doesnt mean that it should be thrown away.

Faith gives people hope. Without Faith people would be nowhere?

And as for God? Fuck dat, its not logical that theres a guy running about on clouds to be honest.

From: senrath
From what I understand, tara's post pretty much is just a really fancy way of saying that we cannot prove nor deny the existence of God.

ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF DISPROOF
(1) You can't prove God doesn't exist!
(2) Therefore, God exists.

From: gerauchert
Imagine a place where there was never a belief in a higher being, there would be no morals, values, or justification to be peaceful. Survival of the fittest at its best. Survive at all costs, there would be no need to think of the feelings of others. You just need to live out your life FOR YOU. Those who may have disagreements and those who decide to live for morals (in the midst of this chaotic world) would be killed no doubt. There would be no place for peace in a dog eat dog world. And in this case a man eat man world.

so you're telling me that the only reason you dont kill people is because you've got God looking over your shoulder?

if God were to leave for a while, you'd immediatly start murdering people?


somethings wrong with you dude.



see sweden, athiest population is around 85%, there is no man-eat-man-ism there, or at least no more then in any other country.

source

your assertion that morals and values comes from belief in god is simply wrong.

Morals dont come from religion or belief?

They come from a decent upbringing.

From: Yakman

ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF DISPROOF
(1) You can't prove God doesn't exist!
(2) Therefore, God exists.

Pity that's a logical fallacy. It would make things so much simpler if that really worked.

This is a paradoxical argument.

You can't prove he doesn't exist, but you can't prove he does.

You can't win.

here, If god doesn't exist, where the hell did all of this start from, is not like, -POOF-, oh shit! Matter randomly created it self! ~~ OUT OF NOTHING.

The matter always was. It didnt come out of nowhere, it was just always there.

What you want to do is watch Horizion: The origins of time.

There are alot of theories out there as to how our world was created.

From: Timer
here, If god doesn't exist, where the hell did all of this start from, is not like, -POOF-, oh shit! Matter randomly created it self! ~~ OUT OF NOTHING.

For all we know, it could've.

It can't spontaneously create it self…

What, and some greater being spawned out of nowhere to?

If dark matter cant randomly be created, how can a human be created? It took like 7 billion years before the Earth had dinosaurs, yet this 'God' character could create himself and everything?

So your saying that matter can't just exist, but God can just exist, he always has? God = Matter. God had to come from somewhere, as did that matter? You have no idea.

From: Timer
It can't spontaneously create it self…

We can't say that for certain.

With an infinite time frame, anything could happen.

I'm still not sure.

I'm leaning toward atheism.

The concept of God is not logically impossible.

technically the idea of God would go against the laws of science, so therefore is logically impossible, and anyways, the believing of God is not supposed to be logical. You are supposed to believe in him because of faith. If you were to prove the existence of God then God would cease to exist.

I quite like the way of thinking of tarajunky though :)

From: Timer
It can't spontaneously create it self…

And god can when he never even existed?

From: Timer
here, If god doesn't exist, where the hell did all of this start from, is not like, -POOF-, oh shit! Matter randomly created it self! ~~ OUT OF NOTHING.

where did god start from then?

you've offered god as an explaination of this, but god needs an explaination himself.



by the way, there are actually times of matter creating itself.

when you're in a vacuum, its not actually empty but particles get randomly created out of nothing, they are always a particle and anti-particle pair, so they annialate each other very soon afterwards.

however, sometimes they are created close to a black hole, and if it just happens that the anti-particle is swallowed by the black hole, but the particle is not, then we will observe the particle and the mass of the black hole will decreace (since anti-particles have negative mass)


also matter can be created from energy

From: ToF
Faith gives people hope. Without Faith people would be nowhere?

And as for God? Fuck dat, its not logical that theres a guy running about on clouds to be honest.

How could there be no god if theres faith? What do you have faith in?

From: kingarabian
How could there be no god if theres faith? What do you have faith in?

Faith in humanity is one. Although I'm sorely lacking in that department.

From: kingarabian
How could there be no god if theres faith? What do you have faith in?

Faith is a feeling created by humans, usually when in despair or in need of something.

From: Yakman

so you're telling me that the only reason you dont kill people is because you've got God looking over your shoulder?

if God were to leave for a while, you'd immediatly start murdering people?

somethings wrong with you dude.

Look. You are putting words into my mouth now. Those are ridiculous accusations… I grew up learning morals from my parents, who learned from theirs, and so on. I dont feel as God is looking over my shoulder, but from the values that I have been taught I feel that they are what is "right". I choose to follow them because of this, not because I fear judgment and punishment (wrath of God). I dont judge you because you are an atheist, so why would you go out of your way to put, "somethings wrong with you dude". I am a firm believer that people should live out their lives in whatever way makes them happy, so long as it is not a negative impact to others. I for one am happy in keeping my faith, it keeps me going in this shit-hole world that we live in. And back to my previous post…

All I am saying is that without faith our world would be worse off (as in we never had it to begin with). From the evolutionary standpoint, we could have evolved a "faith gene" over years, which kept people sane during bad times. Over time it could have developed into the religions that people hold to now in our modern days (Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam… ect.) where "morals and values" were established.

Now pretend that this "faith gene" never was evolved. Do you think that you would be living in a world that promotes peace over war? A world that looks down upon the harm of others and tries to improve the lives of others. I dont.

And I certainly wouldnt think that people would hold to the morals and values that atheists in Sweden hold to today if it werent for faith.

EDIT:

And as a side note, doesnt "also matter can be created from energy" conflict with the law of conservation of matter?

Matter cannot be created or destroyed, but can be transformed into other forms of matter.

From: TViYH
Matter cannot be created or destroyed, but can be transformed into other forms of matter.

*or energy (according to Einstein's theory)

matter and energy are the same thing,
the laws are not violated in the same way they are not violated when you change kinetic energy into potential energy.

you remember the LHC in switzerland? that creates matter from energy.

the particles go round and round close to the speed of light so they have a lot of energy, and when they collide new particles get created.

principle of conservation isnt violated because if you create 1 kilogram of matter it will cost you 3 x 10^8 joules of energy.

also you can go the other way and create energy from matter. Stars, atom bombs and nuclear power stations do it.


it seems to me like your saying "It doesnt matter if faith is wrong, people should believe in it anyway, since it makes us good"



as for morals and values,
they cant come from religion, since many religions teach so many bad, immoral things. to take the christian example, you only need to read leviticus or deuternonomy to see what im talking about.

wherever you go in the world, regardless of religion or faith, people are generally nice to each other, they dont lie, they dont steal or cheat and they pay their taxes.
if someone doesnt do these things, normally the rest of his community look down on him somehow.

if you want to take a evolutionary point of view. piece is better then war because piece provides a stable and secure society where bringing up children is easier and safer.
to risk stating the obvious, in war it is hard to reproduce and have your children survive to reproductive age.

the reason people are nice is because in societies where humans evolved, almost everyone was related to each other, so when you were nice to someone, you were being nice to part of yourself (your genes)

From: gerauchert
Blah blah blah blah blah

Almost everyone described in the Bible that didn't believe in the Christian god seems to have been described as either murdering, gambling, corrupted or [insert everything else that sends you to hell here]. It's mainly because of that and the fact that people want to feel good about themselves that lots of Christians think Arabs and other non-Christians (at least in America, so non-American/Europeans too) have no morals. Yakman's accusations are not without reason ;).

From: gerauchert
Now pretend that this "faith gene" never was evolved. Do you think that you would be living in a world that promotes peace over war? A world that looks down upon the harm of others and tries to improve the lives of others. I dont.

What would happen if we had faith for the future and how it could be improved instead of our own post-death fears? There wouldn't be any "my god is better than your god and to prove it I'll show you that your god won't protect you" fights or wars. We'd realize that to keep the future of mankind going we'd have to work together. You can't act like atheists don't see a reason to live or else they wouldn't.

From: gerauchert

Now pretend that this "faith gene" never was evolved. Do you think that you would be living in a world that promotes peace over war? A world that looks down upon the harm of others and tries to improve the lives of others. I dont.

Religion causes war. Why? Because they never teach people to accept other people's beliefs. Religion causes the whole "You don't believe what I do and thus you are evil." scenario. Without religion people would have less conflicting beliefs ; thus, allowing people to have a better chance to get along. Think about it.

If there was no God/gods we wouldn't be having this conversation or any of the other religious argument thread conversations. People got mad it a couple of those threads. They wouldn't have if there was no religion.


People don't get mad about science. Has anybody ever killed somebody because they thought Hydrogen should be named Nydrogen? I seriously doubt it. These are some words that you should ponder…

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today…

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace…

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world…

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

That sums up my opinion on how life should be lived. People need to chill out and discover that every person will not agree with them. Learn to accep those people as other humans and we can stop the senseless hate and violence.

Also

From: Ruroken
Your logic is flawed :p

Did you even think about what you were typing? Did you read it back to yourself? If God exists then God exists…yes that would be true… When you take proofs in geometry you are going to fail really bad.

From: TViYH
Faith is a feeling created by humans, usually when in despair or in need of something.

That's a very simplistic attitude. The reality as I understand it is that "faith" is not just an accident of human thought, it's an essential characteristic of the human species.

Since faith will often cause people to act in a way that puts others' interests above their own, it would be selected against as far as natural selection is concerned. However, since faith has been somehow selected FOR throughout human evolution, that suggests that it is a beneficial characteristic.

From a purely scientific and historical perspective, one could therefore conclude that people WITHOUT faith are at a disadvantage to those with faith.

Now, if you can accept that logical premise, then why would anyone go to extreme lengths to deny their humanity and expunge faith from their life, when logic says it's a beneficial characteristic?

gerauchert isn't far off, actually. There IS some sort of "faith gene" encoded into our being.

..Then do atheists lack that gene?

Yes, they are lesser than all other humans that have faith in something…

The only reason that people without faith have been at a disadvantage is because throughout history the people with faith have brutally tortured them for not sharing the same beliefs. Strange that they are against violence and hate but as soon as they find a person that is different they can all come together to make them pay for the sin of individuality.

I personally think Darwinism is pretty close :)

From my point of view, not believing in god, people failed making a story for how life came on earth. You see, (afaik)according to bible there just were Adam and Eve, (So don't complain about dark matter just 'poffing'), who were banished from the garden, but they have no explanation for other animals? That will work for long because people want to know about their origin, people who work in scientifical jobs, e.g archeology etc, don't believe in god and won't be any trouble for church by asking "What about animals".

Animals are just like humans, except for the size of our brain, humans aren't some divine creatures, and for me, this is one of the things that science wins church in. Church explained only humans, I doubt that if you ask a priest or some other dude who just knows the bible well, that he will tell you animals also ate god's (tempted to say chips, but I'll do my best not to :( ) fruit, and were banished to earth.

Also, where did god come from, since it seems to be the origin of everything? Maybe this all could work, but no-one has any idea where has this god come from, and they'll just say it has been there forever and will be, or something like that, but why the hell do people who believe in god claim so while they deny that dark matter can't just pop into the world?!

i believe in god, but to be honest, i dont believe in Jesus, or the Bible for that matter.

if you look at religion all over the world, it all has the same umm for lack of a better word perspective. its all worshiping a higher power, as they we ow we came to being, jsut interpetted (i cant spell i know) differently.

just my opinion, dont call me a hypocrite for not believing in the bible, i just think that the stories in the bible are not meant to be taken literally, and waaaay to many people do.

From: n3ss3s
From my point of view, not believing in god, people failed making a story for how life came on earth. You see, (afaik)according to bible there just were Adam and Eve, (So don't complain about dark matter just 'poffing'), who were banished from the garden, but they have no explanation for other animals? That will work for long because people want to know about their origin, people who work in scientifical jobs, e.g archeology etc, don't believe in god and won't be any trouble for church by asking "What about animals".

Animals are just like humans, except for the size of our brain, humans aren't some divine creatures, and for me, this is one of the things that science wins church in. Church explained only humans, I doubt that if you ask a priest or some other dude who just knows the bible well, that he will tell you animals also ate god's (tempted to say chips, but I'll do my best not to :( ) fruit, and were banished to earth.



Also, where did god come from, since it seems to be the origin of everything? Maybe this all could work, but no-one has any idea where has this god come from, and they'll just say it has been there forever and will be, or something like that, but why the hell do people who believe in god claim so while they deny that dark matter can't just pop into the world?!

Thats the problem about Christianity. They dont fully explain everything, and make new editions to the bible every year. So the bible is not gods words anymore. Instead its us humans. (No im not being racist to christians. Im just saying that flaw is big against athiests.) Try studying or read about islam once. It will answer most of your guys questions.

I said that from the start. The modern day bible is filled with the churches bullshit and mis-translations.

And as for atheists having less faith? Thats a bit simplistic too, then. They have to believe in something about the world, maybe they believe in Evolutionism? Just because not everyone believes in Creationism doesn't mean they are not faithful. An atheist guy marries, is he not very faithful towards his wife? Right. You cant say someone who is a non-believer has more or less faith.

And n3ss3s, you bring up a good point, Christians believe in the Creationism theory, that God creates everything, but they do not except the big bang, that matter was created, but Afaik, God = Matter?

According to Einstein's threory anyway, we can see the past, and we can see the future. We can go back into the past, as we can go to where we previousley was, but we cannot go into the future as the future is already planned, so we cannot change the future, only live what we are going to do. Also according to Einstein, we are living something that has happened already, so we are seconds behind the future, which has been planned out, so we can see the real unmapped future ahead of us, we just cant reach it to change it.

How does your argument prove anything?

- The concept of A planet of Giant talking monkeys name Chad is not logically impossible.

- If A planet of Giant talking monkeys name Chad exists, then it HAS TO exist, and it is impossible for A planet of Giant talking monkeys name Chad to not exist.

- If A planet of Giant talking monkeys name Chad does not exist, then it is impossible for A planet of Giant talking monkeys name Chad to exist.

- The idea of A planet of Giant talking monkeys name Chad is not impossible, so the last post is refuted. Therefore, A planet of Giant talking monkeys name Chad exists.


Apparently I just proved there's a world of giant talking monkeys who are all named Chad.

So how is the idea of a god not impossible?

The "setup" he used to prove this is flawed.

Me falling asleep right now is not logically possible.

If I fell asleep, I would have to be asleep, and it would not be impossible for me to be asleep.

If I am not falling asleep, then it is impossible for me to fall asleep.

Me falling asleep is not impossible, so the last point is refuted. Therefore, me falling asleep is possible.



But. I'm not falling asleep.

GTFO WITH YOUR MADE UP THEORIES.

Religion and faith are not just based on stories. They are based on "religious experience". In other words, people hear something, and they have a religious experience by having a feeling of burning or excitement or some physiological response that confirms the story to them as being true. Without that religious experience, a story is just a story.

That's why the Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't catching on. It's a story without any sort of accompanying religious experience.

That physiological response is real. It can be measured by scientific instruments when it occurs. And as I said before, if you look at it from a purely scientific perspective, that physiological response is a part of our species, and has been retained through evolution. Logic would suggest that it confers a selective advantage. Since the primary way that it was manifested itself historically has been through embracing religion or mysticism, I think there is a strong logical argument that religion is beneficial to people.

There is also a strong economic argument, based on Game Theory. The general idea behind Game Theory is that between two choices, "rational" people will always choose the one most likely to benefit themselves at the expense of others. It's often represented as a 2x2 matrix.

3/3 5/0
0/5 1/1

The first number is the benefit person A gets by making choices, and the second number is the benefit person B gets.

If both make choice 1, then they both get 3 units. If A chooses 1 and B chooses 2, then A gets 5 and B gets 0. If both choose 2, then they both get 1.

Now Game Theory would predict that both people should always choose 2. But if you look at it from a group perspective, that would be the worst outcome of all. The only reason a "rational person" would choose 1 is if there's some other game being played. Religion could be this other game.

For instance, if your religious beliefs promise you eternal life and happiness for making choice 1, then you would be more prone to do it, even if choice 1 isn't the best for you individually. If you were in a religious community where everyone was making choice 1, then the group as a whole would benefit much more than a group of "rational actors" making the rational, selfish choice #2.

From: Timer
here, If god doesn't exist, where the hell did all of this start from, is not like, -POOF-, oh shit! Matter randomly created it self! ~~ OUT OF NOTHING.

Where did the "God" came from? Created itself?! Right… That makes even less sense, doesn't it? ;)

I am an atheist, and PROUD of it!

From: Widget
1). This apple is not necessary

The world doesn't care if it exists or not

2). This apple is as so defined either exists or does not exist.

It can't half-exist

3). If this apple exists, he necessarily exists.

If this apple exists, it has to exist.

4). If this apple does not exist, he necessarily does not exist.

If this apple does not exist, it cannot exist.

5). The idea of apples are not self-contradictory.

Apples can make perfectly logical sense.

6). This apple exists.

Since it is not impossible for this apple to exist, and since if this apple does not exist, it won't exist, this apple exists.


But wait!
I have no apple. There must be something wrong here then.


Mind expanding step/point 6?

That makes absolutely no sense. You said that since you don't have an apple, they don't exist. I don't have a telephone right now, does that mean they don't exist?

Anyways, this whole thread doesn't make sence either…

- If God does not exist, then it is impossible for God to exist.

Esteban was saying that since it's possible that God can exist, he must. I was saying that even though it's possible for me to have an apple, I still don't have an apple. Just because God could exist doesn't mean he has to (assuming he/it could in the first place)

personaly mate id just say go kill your self,and if he is real why has he not answered my calls on a saterday night for lotto?

From: Widget
Esteban was saying that since it's possible that God can exist, he must. I was saying that even though it's possible for me to have an apple, I still don't have an apple. Just because God could exist doesn't mean he has to (assuming he/it could in the first place)

Oh, I get what you're trying to say, I just really don't understand how all the 'if he exists he must exist' stuff. Doesn't make much logical sense to me.

From: tarajunky
In other words, people hear something, and they have a religious experience by having a feeling of burning or excitement or some physiological response that confirms the story to them as being true.

So you are saying that people feeling left out and wanting to fit in is religious experience. That's all that it is. The only reason the religion exists is because people want to feel like they are part of something. They want friends and to be included in something.

How many people do you know who have "faith" as you call it that are not part of a big group. I know that I hate being around people because they are always so needy. So many people in the world have to be included in everything.

It's like the annoying kid a school who is an attention bitch. They do anything to get people to like them. They even convince themselves that what they are doing is their normal personality and not some stupid plan to fit in.

I believe in a higher power but I don't flock together with others to decide what should be right. I decide for myself. I don't let anybody tell me what is right for me. People that are members on organized religions let their religious "leader" tell them what is right thus taking the spiritual out of religion and replacing it with "I want to be a part of the group so people don't make fun of me."

From: Aser
So you are saying that people feeling left out and wanting to fit in is religious experience. That's all that it is. The only reason the religion exists is because people want to feel like they are part of something. They want friends and to be included in something.

No, I believe that faith and religious experiences are intensely personal. Any faith built on being part of a group will be temporary and evaporate as soon as the group is no longer there. It's like some people that are raised in a very religious family, but never get a personal testimony of their own. As soon as they move away from their family, they lose that faith because it was never theirs to begin with.

However, the personal faith that an individual develops through their own personal pursuit of truth, and through their own personal religious experiences can abide with them for a lifetime, regardless of whether they are part of a group or not.

From: Vytaliti
LAWL FKN OWND UR A>S

ps: lawl trying 2 use theory of relativaty to prove/disprove the existance of god…. ironically enough its what i did on my sat's….(well i realizes it was lame and changed it at last min)

i dunno how you people live ur lives but lets face some facts:
higher beings were "created" to fill in the blank.
example:
3251613456134 AD
Tom: oh its raining! but…why or how?
Jane: well tom, i just happend to kill my goat at the time it started to rain…maybe theirs a rain god.!!!!!! (hintity hint hint) and maybe i have to kill somthing to make it rain….

A bunch of years later:
Thomas: hey precipitation is occuring…
Janine: indeed, you are very observant thomas. this means condensation will occur, and i dont even have to kill you for it! isnt science great tom?!
Thomas: you know janine…i think i liked it better with that raspberry syrup on you from the goat prop….mmm *for 'GOD' knows what reason wearing a metal cup* (DING!)

LAWLAW#LAWLALWLALWLAW i hope u enjoyed that cuz i did… anyway im not saying i dont belive in god…im saying that evrything that has a begingin has an end. which means when this (fill in the blank) religion fails, another will takes its place.

i may not bvelive in one god but i do belive in higher power…just not one of em…cuz that just doesnt work…

AD:for more funny aspects on life… request…otherwise i wont bother cuz im happy already.

EDIT: 2x2 matrix would 1/1 ne 3/3 ???? no?

EDIT: ok final though here…IT WAS A HORRIBLE IDEA TO POST THIS TOPIC…NO YOUR NOT CONVERTING ANYONE…IF YOU WANA BE A MISSIONARY GO DOOR TO DOOR WITH A PAMPHLET. THIS TOPIC CAN EASILY BE DISCUSSED/ARGUES DEBATED INDEFINATLY…SO HOPEFULLY THIS IS IT… IVE SEEN THIS MANY TIMES AND GOSH DOES IT FAIL ….SO WOULD SOME ON LOCK DAT SH.T UP. …OR SOMTHING?

LAWLAWLALWLALWLALWLAWLALW# I did not understand one word you just said!

From: Vytaliti
LAWL FKN OWND UR A>S

ps: lawl trying 2 use theory of relativaty to prove/disprove the existance of god…. ironically enough its what i did on my sat's….(well i realizes it was lame and changed it at last min)

i dunno how you people live ur lives but lets face some facts:
higher beings were "created" to fill in the blank.
example:
3251613456134 AD
Tom: oh its raining! but…why or how?
Jane: well tom, i just happend to kill my goat at the time it started to rain…maybe theirs a rain god.!!!!!! (hintity hint hint) and maybe i have to kill somthing to make it rain….

A bunch of years later:
Thomas: hey precipitation is occuring…
Janine: indeed, you are very observant thomas. this means condensation will occur, and i dont even have to kill you for it! isnt science great tom?!
Thomas: you know janine…i think i liked it better with that raspberry syrup on you from the goat prop….mmm *for 'GOD' knows what reason wearing a metal cup* (DING!)

LAWLAW#LAWLALWLALWLAW i hope u enjoyed that cuz i did… anyway im not saying i dont belive in god…im saying that evrything that has a begingin has an end. which means when this (fill in the blank) religion fails, another will takes its place.

i may not bvelive in one god but i do belive in higher power…just not one of em…cuz that just doesnt work…

AD:for more funny aspects on life… request…otherwise i wont bother cuz im happy already.

EDIT: 2x2 matrix would 1/1 ne 3/3 ???? no?

EDIT: ok final though here…IT WAS A HORRIBLE IDEA TO POST THIS TOPIC…NO YOUR NOT CONVERTING ANYONE…IF YOU WANA BE A MISSIONARY GO DOOR TO DOOR WITH A PAMPHLET. THIS TOPIC CAN EASILY BE DISCUSSED/ARGUES DEBATED INDEFINATLY…SO HOPEFULLY THIS IS IT… IVE SEEN THIS MANY TIMES AND GOSH DOES IT FAIL ….SO WOULD SOME ON LOCK DAT SH.T UP. …OR SOMTHING?

Are you drunk and/or high?

From: Vytaliti

3251613456134 AD

Do you even come close to thinking before you express your ideas? Even thought I disagree with tara's ideas I can respect him (her? sorry don't know) because at least the post contributes to the topic.
All you did was waste my time trying to decipher the point you were trying to get across. Epic Phail on that one by the way. Would it be possible for people to give posts even a couple of seconds of thought before posting.

@tara I agree that some people have their own religious experiences that aren't 'just to be part of the cool club', but many, I would guess around 75%, of people that are part of organized religion just follow along because they are told to. They see somebody hanging on every word that is said by a leader and they decide that if someone else does it then it is okay for them to do it also.

Science is just now delving into what they think the mind can do. Strange occurrences, etc. Some stories that I'd like to point out: The Stars My Destination, where there is a method of travel called "Jaunting"; the books from the Ringworld series, where one of the characters is extremely lucky (where the book assumes that luck is the ability of the mind to influence events); and a short story that I've forgotten the name of. In this story, a space-faring race far in the future has catalogued every known species in existence. A "librarian" of the catalogue comes upon the entry for Homo sapiens, reads the file, and notices a big-bright-red sticker reading "dangerous" or the like. Apparently, through testing, it was discerned that things happened "differently" for humans, as they were put through a series of tests in which the only chance to survive was to do the impossible, which the subjects did. Anyhow, the librarian clones himself a human for observation, human takes over the ship w/ equipment to make more clones, etc, end. (The clones are immortal, though)

Are you posting on the right thread? I was totally lost to the point you were trying to make. Was it that humans are unpredictable?

Just taking a guess, but I think he's trying to say that the human brain is so complex that it couldn't have been created through evolution and/or only God would be able to create/understand it.

From: Vytaliti
so sad not all enjoy my - lol…i was trying 2 type "wiered" but i sreiously just hit "qu" going for "e"…omg my stomach is hurting from laughter… - as i was saying sad not everyone enjoys my humor but thats ok….and yes Aser i do think before i say, but i dont always show it…
and to clear things up, i was saying that

• people make up religions for things they cant explain (yet)
• where one religion fails, another rises
• you shouldnt use theory of relativity in religious arguments because (GOD/Science)*Humanity + Mass reproduction = floss - mint
• if you didnt get what i said dont worry about it, hopefully someone did
• janine is better with raspberry syrup (lawl)

so yeah…look who cares if god exists….will it really change life that much? example:

im about to get shot in the head-
no god:fk im dead…
with god:fk im dead…oh yeah, ..and i hope i go to heaven…

ok im drawing a blank nevertheless, the above should suffice…

EDIT: for the sake of argument, the way i prove a higher power (not "god" perse) exists to myself is i think of how its possible for all the cells in my body, which keep in mind are individual "creatures," can think as one, not function as one, think as one…when i think, its as if im an individual cell, and since i also belive that all things do evrything on purpose and for their own benefiet, (but thats another story) then how can many cells think as one and …fk it just got too complex….

the point is…i can think as 1 even though im many, somthing one might call a "soul"…i mean its not like all the cells in my body VOTE to do somthing…its a monarchy.. (which is my thoughts) and my subjects (my cells)???? make sence no i didnt thinkso and yes i didnt bother to punctuate or yeah done…yup

We are trying to discuss something here, but while you can't pull your brains together go have a discussion with yourself somewhere else…

fk it just got too complex….

http://www.spellchecker.net/spellcheck/

From: Yakman

wherever you go in the world, regardless of religion or faith, people are generally nice to each other, they dont lie, they dont steal or cheat and they pay their taxes.
if someone doesnt do these things, normally the rest of his community look down on him somehow.

Since you obviously didnt take the time to thoroughly read my post and understand what I was trying to say, let me quote myself here.

From: gerauchert

All I am saying is that without faith our world would be worse off (as in we never had it to begin with).

Of course people generally decent to each other and hold to certain morals in this world. You dont think that the values religions taught (dont kill, dont steal, dont rape) were passed on through generations until it became so common that mostly everyone (including atheists) hold those values today?

From: Yakman

it seems to me like your saying "It doesnt matter if faith is wrong, people should believe in it anyway, since it makes us good"

as for morals and values,
they cant come from religion, since many religions teach so many bad, immoral things. to take the christian example, you only need to read leviticus or deuternonomy to see what im talking about.

Im saying that faith gives people hope during tough times, faith alone doesnt make someone "good", however faith does influence someone to "want" to be "good".

I agree with you 100% that religion has taught some bad things. Religion as I stated in my previous post has caused so much death and destruction in the world that we would be better off with out it.

However faith and spirituality themselves have caused little to no harm to anyone (it is the mob mentality of religion that has). If you choose to believe that this "faith" is false, then that is your choice. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

From: Yakman

if you want to take a evolutionary point of view. piece is better then war because piece provides a stable and secure society where bringing up children is easier and safer.
to risk stating the obvious, in war it is hard to reproduce and have your children survive to reproductive age.

the reason people are nice is because in societies where humans evolved, almost everyone was related to each other, so when you were nice to someone, you were being nice to part of yourself (your genes)

I agree with the peace vs war aspect. The "nice" gene theory that you are throwing out there seems a little shakey though.

No, I'm trying to say that sometimes things do, infact, seem to "just happen". There are many experiences where people claim something extraordinary happened, where it can either be attributed to God or to something else.

From: Vytaliti
For without imperfection there wouldn't be a perfection.

When is anybody going to listen to me? Again…think before expressing ideas. Without imperfection there would only be perfection. Think about it. If there was nothing that was imperfect…everything would have to be perfect.

I think that the education system today should teach less dependence. Some day society will fall and all the people who are so attached to it will fall as well.

From: R0b0t1
No, I'm trying to say that sometimes things do, infact, seem to "just happen". There are many experiences where people claim something extraordinary happened, where it can either be attributed to God or to something else.

Things sometimes do just happen, and they seem to be unexplainable to science. This doesn't make a God exist it just says that science is not advanced enough to explain it yet. Like when people used to think that stars were holes in a blanket covering the sky. If a person still believed that they would be called a fag and probably shunned for life. Basically my point is that religion blinds us. It has this handy little tool called faith that successfully blocks out 95% of reason and fact.

From: Aser
When is anybody going to listen to me? Again…think before expressing ideas. Without imperfection there would only be perfection. Think about it. If there was nothing that was imperfect…everything would have to be perfect.

How would you appreciate it for perfect if you didnt know what imperfect was? Nothing would be perfect, nothing would be imperfect, everything would be neutral.

Yes, but just because everything is perfect doesn't mean that it isn't perfect. Otherwise you are defying the idea of everything being perfect. I understand the essence of the idea, but the way it is delivered is flawed.

From: Widget
Just taking a guess, but I think he's trying to say that the human brain is so complex that it couldn't have been created through evolution and/or only God would be able to create/understand it.

Once again…through millions of years of trials and evolution, it was bound to happen.

I am 15 years old and I am amazed by this subject.

-There are thousands of religions in the world, even if one is correct its about a 0.1% chance that the Christians god is the acctual one.

-People say 'Christians have evidence'. This is the bible. To me, the bible is BALLSHIT(not offence). Any dude on crack could have come up with some random shit like that.

-Even if Jesus DID exist 2000 years ago, he was killed. Maybe god decided the humans he created had become to evil and so he left to go and help another world, and that is why we have wars/starvation/poverty.

-I think we would know if we have a god, there would be world peace, no starvation, sharing and plenty of food to go around.

-Before the big bang, there was nothingness, before you were born, you were nothingness, after we die, we will be nothing. We do not have souls, there is no proof for us having a spiritual existence therefore we will not get reincarnated as we will be dead.

-Why have so many countries and human beings turned to religion? becuase they are WEAK humans and cannot come up with any other reason for us being alive. Once an idea takes hold, it is hard to get rid of. With humans getting more and more intelligent it seems that more and more people are driving more towards the idea of science, the logical idea, the idea that explains more than any of the other ideas.

I hope you enjoy reading my views, anyone else think this is true??

thanks,

-PK;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkhQLt1vbWU&fmt=18

Pretty much sums it up.

I dont mean this as disrespect, but I am just curious because I have a different view point, so I have to ask this to the Atheists in this thread.

What do you think your purpose in life is? What allows you to keep going in this world if you believe that once you are dead, you are dead, and that in a few hundred years no one would even know you existed.

Once again, I am not trying to be rude, I am just curious.

gerauchert: Once you're dead, your heart stops, your brain stops, etc. etc. No one will care except family. Nothing keeps us going, we all can die at anytime.

From: gerauchert
I dont mean this as disrespect, but I am just curious because I have a different view point, so I have to ask this to the Atheists in this thread.

What do you think your purpose in life is? What allows you to keep going in this world if you believe that once you are dead, you are dead, and that in a few hundred years no one would even know you existed.

Once again, I am not trying to be rude, I am just curious.

I don't really think I have a "purpose". I will just make the best of my life, and hope it turns out good. Nothing but the love of life keeps me going. But in an evolutionary view, the reason we keep going is because the genes of only creatures that want to live were passed on to offspring, and the genes of the ones who didn't want to live were not, as they.. didn't live. (Not looking to start a creation vs. evolution debate here; I was just throwing that out there)

From: gerauchert
I dont mean this as disrespect, but I am just curious because I have a different view point, so I have to ask this to the Atheists in this thread.

What do you think your purpose in life is? What allows you to keep going in this world if you believe that once you are dead, you are dead, and that in a few hundred years no one would even know you existed.

Once again, I am not trying to be rude, I am just curious.

Just because you don't believe in God doesn't automatically mean you don't believe in an afterlife.

I would assume that people who don't believe in an afterlife live to enjoy living and to make sure that they can have as much fun in life as they can. Also the probably live give their future generations a better life.

From: gerauchert
I dont mean this as disrespect, but I am just curious because I have a different view point, so I have to ask this to the Atheists in this thread.

What do you think your purpose in life is? What allows you to keep going in this world if you believe that once you are dead, you are dead, and that in a few hundred years no one would even know you existed.

Once again, I am not trying to be rude, I am just curious.

I love these debates about God. They are very covering from both sides, and very entertaining. I am an atheist myself, and I would like to answer my religious counterpart's questions.

What do you think your purpose in life is?:I do not have a specific purpose. My goal is to get an education, get a job, find somebody to love, start a family and live till I die.
The purpose of a purpose is purposeless (Ok, I admit I didn't think about that one. But it sounded smart).

What allows you to keep going in this world if you believe that once you are dead, you are dead, and that in a few hundred years no one would even know you existed:Every human makes a difference. Some of us may not have much magnitude, but some people play a major part. Osama bin Laden (Never said they were all good parts in the play), George Bush, Bill Gates, Elvis Presley and so on and so forth. I live my life, because I may be able to have importance. I live to gain glory, to help others achieve it and to help my surroundings and especially myself. Ruthlessly honest.

There you go, Gerauchert! :D
-Knives

-Even if Jesus DID exist 2000 years ago, he was killed. Maybe god decided the humans he created had become to evil and so he left to go and help another world, and that is why we have wars/starvation/poverty.

I've yet to see evidence that Jesus didn't ever exist, and/or was never crucified. Of course, if you have some, I'd be interested in seeing it.

From: Aser
Do you even come close to thinking before you express your ideas? Even thought I disagree with tara's ideas I can respect him (her? sorry don't know) because at least the post contributes to the topic.
All you did was waste my time trying to decipher the point you were trying to get across. Epic Phail on that one by the way. Would it be possible for people to give posts even a couple of seconds of thought before posting.

@tara I agree that some people have their own religious experiences that aren't 'just to be part of the cool club', but many, I would guess around 75%, of people that are part of organized religion just follow along because they are told to. They see somebody hanging on every word that is said by a leader and they decide that if someone else does it then it is okay for them to do it also.

Correct on the response to Tarajunky. Everyone does it because their family did it, or they see other people doing it. The reason that religion was created, I believe, was to show people answers to a question, not neccessairily (can't spell right now ahckk) to be taken seriously. I think that if Jesus existed, the stories of biblical proportions were meant to portray a fable in a way we cannot understand. Christianity could be an Aesop taken much too seriously.

From: R0b0t1
Science is just now delving into what they think the mind can do. Strange occurrences, etc. Some stories that I'd like to point out: The Stars My Destination, where there is a method of travel called "Jaunting"; the books from the Ringworld series, where one of the characters is extremely lucky (where the book assumes that luck is the ability of the mind to influence events); and a short story that I've forgotten the name of. In this story, a space-faring race far in the future has catalogued every known species in existence. A "librarian" of the catalogue comes upon the entry for Homo sapiens, reads the file, and notices a big-bright-red sticker reading "dangerous" or the like. Apparently, through testing, it was discerned that things happened "differently" for humans, as they were put through a series of tests in which the only chance to survive was to do the impossible, which the subjects did. Anyhow, the librarian clones himself a human for observation, human takes over the ship w/ equipment to make more clones, etc, end. (The clones are immortal, though)

I think he is saying here that humans are a species that only a being of biblical proportions (sorry about using this phrase way too much, I was watching the History Channel :S) could create us. However, why wouldn't we think the same thing about a spider, or even the smallest single cell organisms? We are not perfect. We just seem perfect. We have many defects such as emotions, which for example ants or other insects don't have. We are dynamic, yes, but doesn't mean a creator had to make that.

From: Widget
Just taking a guess, but I think he's trying to say that the human brain is so complex that it couldn't have been created through evolution and/or only God would be able to create/understand it.

Exactly what I think. Think about my points everyone. Merry christmas (happy holidays) btw.

Cut em2 it

Edit:

I think that the education system today should teach less dependence. Some day society will fall and all the people who are so attached to it will fall as well.

You and I will be long dead before this happens. The precise reason that society won't fall is because too many are attached to it, until this number gets exponentially smaller than the uncivilized people, which we know won't happen in our lifetime, that it is possible for anarchy, or tribalism to make a comeback. This age would be a huge dropout in technology, people are too busy putting food in their bellies, there is no time for advancement, (soz for going off topic, but I had to to prove my point).

[Off Topic]/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

From: Cut em2 it

You and I will be long dead before this happens. The precise reason that society won't fall is because too many are attached to it, until this number gets exponentially smaller than the uncivilized people, which we know won't happen in our lifetime, that it is possible for anarchy, or tribalism to make a comeback. This age would be a huge dropout in technology, people are too busy putting food in their bellies, there is no time for advancement, (soz for going off topic, but I had to to prove my point).

Just because people are attached to something doesn't mean that it will survive. Lots of things that people have been attached to have fallen: any of the empires throughout time, the prohibition (okay only bitches were attached to that), slavery, $0.50 a gallon gasoline, legalized drugs… I'm not saying that society will fall in my lifetime or soon, but it will fall eventually. All good things must come to an end (the good is how most people consider it, personally I think society sucks). When it falls I seriously doubt that it will be because people don't like it anymore. It will be because the current system that runs society is a failure and will bring about its own collapse.
[/Off Topic] ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

There is no logical way to prove the existence of an omnipotent being. If there was then everyone would be following the same God/gods/thing. Because there is so much dispute over a higher power I believe that there either is no higher power OR people are way off on what they conceive is a higher power/God. Maybe we need to rethink what it really is that everybody is arguing about. My theory is that people are shooting in the exact opposite direction when thinking of the 'all powerful'.

I think (on risk of getting flammed…*cringe*…) instead of asking a God to help us out in life so much, we need to become our own Gods. What really can we not accomplish if we work together.

Recall the story of the Tower of Babel. God, in his infinite wisdom, screwed us all over because we were becoming to great. Maybe, if there is a God, he saw that humans had just a little too much potential and he wanted to remain a few steps ahead of the game.

I just ask that you think about it for a minimum of two seconds before making a case against it. I realize that a few…a lot of people won't agree with this but I just ask that you think about it before discarding it as a worthless idea.

From: benjaa
…Scientific evidence says otherwise



that isn't proof, thats like saying;

"Im tired, so i MUST be tired"

@ contradictions :- the bible defies the laws of physics, when Moses split the sea
that is a contradiction to reality, in a way

also, the legends of god and religion are, in the least, outdated.
they were written in times when people still thought the world was flat, which has since been proved wrong too


I myself still ponder on existence of religion, i LIKE to think that a god exists, but its so illogical. it seems that santa and god are in the same boat

merry xmas

Please, do your research. Science in no way contradicts the trachings of Jesus Christ himself. And to the Bible comment. The Bible is not meant to be taken only as literally, but as figuratively as well, as we ask ourselves: How does this relate to our lives? Moses "defying physics" is only trying to convey a point, and is illustrating how God has revealed himself throughout salvation history.

From: Torrent of Flame
Faith gives people hope. Without Faith people would be nowhere?

And as for God? Fuck dat, its not logical that theres a guy running about on clouds to be honest.

You know nothing about Him. You have just bought into what you have seen and know absoultely nothing about Him. How dare you.

From: PlAnT
You know nothing about Him. You have just bought into what you have seen and know absoultely nothing about Him. How dare you.

You no absolutely nothing. You have just bought into what the church has told you, and no absolutely nothing. How dare you.

From: PlAnT
You know nothing about Him. You have just bought into what you have seen and know absoultely nothing about Him. How dare you.

So, what do you know about Him then?

From: gerauchert
I dont mean this as disrespect, but I am just curious because I have a different view point, so I have to ask this to the Atheists in this thread.

What do you think your purpose in life is? What allows you to keep going in this world if you believe that once you are dead, you are dead, and that in a few hundred years no one would even know you existed.

Once again, I am not trying to be rude, I am just curious.

No purpose, nothing keeps me going apart from myself, and I dont really care if no one remembers me in 300 years

Here's a treat mainly for the people who claim they can 'feel' god's presence, although I think everyone should see it :) (two parts, just barely over the 11 minute limit)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKnO6MQCw9Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzn9rX7rauA

Keep in mind he's a definite Atheist.

Widget, I already kind of addressed that in my previous posts. There is a physiological response associated with "spiritual experience" that can be reproduced through non-religious means. Apparently this guy has figured out a way to tap into that (unless he's lying and it's all a setup, which is the case for many people like this).

But just because it can be reproduced doesn't mean that when someone has a spiritual experience through praying or reading the scriptures that it's meaningless. In fact, it begs the question of why we have such a physiological response in the first place. Someone with faith would probably say God made us that way so that he could touch us and help us to understand His will. Someone without faith might say it's a way to encourage selflessness, unity, and camaraderie among groups. Either way, people who ignore or reject it are missing out on something beneficial.

By the way, there's nothing mutually exclusive about faith and science. Most scientists believe in God or a higher power that controls the universe.

From: tarajunky
By the way, there's nothing mutually exclusive about faith and science. Most scientists believe in God or a higher power that controls the universe.

source please

Proof god exists:
God as a concept is the biggest thing there.(has the most properties)
A god which exists is bigger then a god that doesn't exist(The existing one has the most properties)
God must exist.

Though to proof it's YOUR god is kinda harder :P But yeah, there has to be something which 'contains' everyone else. Or you could agree with Kant that existance is not a property…. otherwise it's logically completely correct…

From: Yakman
source please

http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/050811_scientists_god.html

"About two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do.

The study, along with another one released in June, would appear to debunk the oft-held notion that science is incompatible with religion."
…

"In the new study, Rice University sociologist Elaine Howard Ecklund surveyed 1,646 faculty members at elite research universities, asking 36 questions about belief and spiritual practices."

From: tarajunky

In fact, it begs the question of why we have such a physiological response in the first place.

Easy, like I said before, the need to fit in.

Wow, this is gonna be a long one…

N3ss posted a thing a while ago that I think HAS to be adressed. In the Bible they DO provide an explanation for the animals. The story of the creation is split into a "week" some people take this literally, others believe this is symbolism (and often could "provide space" for evolution). The First day God was like "huh, im kinda lonely, I have these angels with me in heaven but they kinda do what i tell them and i cant really have an intelligent arguement with them" (I dont know im just trying to be amusing) so he created the darkness and light on the first day. Second day, he creates water, and seperates the two "waters" (Sea and sky). Third day, He creates the land. Fourth day he creates "lights" in "heaven" (aka stars in the sky). Day five, He creates Sea and Sky animals. Day six, land animals, and Humans.

There is also and explination as to why there are "bad" people and not everything is "perfect" we dont have "peace" ect. (all this is in genesis btw)

God was having fun with adam and eve, He told them they can eat anything in the garden of eden except for the dang'ol tree in the middle. Lucifer (Satan, the Devil, Be'elzibub, you get my point) who along with some other "fallen angels" revolted (in a way) with God and wanted to be more powerful than him, ect. So God banished them and made them their own little home, no matter how hell-ish (W00T PUN!). So Satan is like "God is having too much fun, im gonna ruin his fun" so then he became a "snake" and said to eve, "looky here at this tree, look the fruit isnt poisonous or anything, and it tastes quite good" and eve says "well God doesnt want me to eat it" and Satan says "well the real reason he doesnt want you to eat it is cuz it will make you uber smartz, and you will see right from wrong and stuffs and be as great as God." So Eve was like "Dang this sounds pretty good, gimme that magical fruit!" So she ate it and was like "dang this is good" and her eyes "opened" and Adam comes around the corner and is like "why you eatin' dat fruit babe?" and eve says "its really good try it /repeat what Satan said".

Personally I think the "where did God come from?" arguement can really be argued because with the "matter outta nowhere" its the same flaw. There is one difference, God can do whatever he wants, matter cannot. At the same time that is only true if you believe in God.

The purpose of my life is to glorify God and live my life in a Godly way so people may want to emulate me, and thereby be led to God. (Just in case ya'll were wonderin)

Also there arent any new "Versions" the different "versions" are only different translations.

Whatever other questions yall have, go ahead.

From: sirlaughsalot


God was having fun with adam and eve, He told them they can eat anything in the garden of eden except for the dang'ol tree in the middle. Lucifer (Satan, the Devil, Be'elzibub, you get my point) who along with some other "fallen angels" revolted (in a way) with God and wanted to be more powerful than him, ect. So God banished them and made them their own little home, no matter how hell-ish (W00T PUN!). So Satan is like "God is having too much fun, im gonna ruin his fun" so then he became a "snake" and said to eve, "looky here at this tree, look the fruit isnt poisonous or anything, and it tastes quite good" and eve says "well God doesnt want me to eat it" and Satan says "well the real reason he doesnt want you to eat it is cuz it will make you uber smartz, and you will see right from wrong and stuffs and be as great as God." So Eve was like "Dang this sounds pretty good, gimme that magical fruit!" So she ate it and was like "dang this is good" and her eyes "opened" and Adam comes around the corner and is like "why you eatin' dat fruit babe?" and eve says "its really good try it /repeat what Satan said".

So basically you are saying that God doesn't want us to have what is good in life?

I think Darwinism is one of the most accurate theories, personally.

Of course it has some flaws, but I don't think some magical being could all of a sudden pop and create a universe.

From: TViYH

Of course it has some flaws, but I don't think some magical being could all of a sudden pop and create a universe.

Key words there are you [H]don't think[/H]. That is the problem with this thread. No one actually knows for sure. If there was logical proof then everybody would already know and we would all follow the religion that had logical proof that it was correct.

From: Aser
Key words there are you [H]don't think[/H]. That is the problem with this thread. No one actually knows for sure. If there was logical proof then everybody would already know and we would all follow the religion that had logical proof that it was correct.

nah, cause there'd be plenty of people who'd say things like "its called faith for a REASON!"

From: TViYH
I think Darwinism is one of the most accurate theories, personally.

Of course it has some flaws, but I don't think some magical being could all of a sudden pop and create a universe.

I watched this documentary the other debunking darwins theory. Darwin wrote himself that "should this and this and this occur, then my theory is wrong".

It was the tail in the flaggelem. I dont want to get into detail look it up if you must. But both sides had valid arguments.

Probability should NOT come into facts of god or anything like that. If i had a pack of cards. And 4 players sitting with me. And i shuffled those cards. Handed them out. And then we wrote down the order they came out as and to which player. Then gathered in the cards again and tried again, we would not get the same result.

Infact you could play cards for the rest of your life and never have the same hand dealt to all the players. It is almost impossible. And yet those cards were dealt in the first place.

Ive watched the movie religulous and can say all he does is troll through religions. He has one fact, and he clings to that fact and then it cuts to the next religion. It isnt questions at all, he knows one thing that cant be proven and then just holds to that fact.

Ive also seen zeitegist and that is complete BS. He lies straight to your face. There is a part where he says that in a similar story to noahs ark. There was even the same dove as in noahs ark. Which is COMPELTELY not true. There is absolutely zero mention of a dove.

From: Aser
So basically you are saying that God doesn't want us to have what is good in life?

What? Did you bother reading anything he said? Satan said those things so that he could convince Eve to eat from the tree. I doubt God would give humans the opportunity to be like him, else there'd be no 'God'…

From: Santa_Clause
What? Did you bother reading anything he said? Satan said those things so that he could convince Eve to eat from the tree. I doubt God would give humans the opportunity to be like him, else there'd be no 'God'…

I did read what he said/wrote. God didn't want Adam or Eve to eat the fruit. He said that was because he was playing a game/having fun with them. When Eve ate the fruit she said it was good. So God was keeping them away from something that they enjoyed.

Also if God is so good, how did Satan convince Eve so easily? She supposedly had come in direct contact with God. Shouldn't she have noticed his almighty power and served him. She obviously didn't think that highly of him if she just ate a fruit because she was told it was good.

From: Aser
I did read what he said/wrote. God didn't want Adam or Eve to eat the fruit. He said that was because he was playing a game/having fun with them. When Eve ate the fruit she said it was good. So God was keeping them away from something that they enjoyed.

Also if God is so good, how did Satan convince Eve so easily? She supposedly had come in direct contact with God. Shouldn't she have noticed his almighty power and served him. She obviously didn't think that highly of him if she just ate a fruit because she was told it was good.

All things have to have a consequence. If God didn't disallow Adam and Eve from eating from the tree, then they would, pretty much, have no rules to abide by. God isn't some human with random mood swings that decides to play games with people's minds.

From: Genesis 3:6
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

It says nowhere that the fruit tasted good. But then again, it isn't really hard to avoid eating from a tree that has bad-tasting fruit. It's called temptation because Adam and Eve had to refrain from eating something that would benefit them, whether because of taste or power.

As for your second point about God being good…are you blaming God because a human decided to eat from the tree?

From: Aser

Also if God is so good, how did Satan convince Eve so easily? She supposedly had come in direct contact with God. Shouldn't she have noticed his almighty power and served him. She obviously didn't think that highly of him if she just ate a fruit because she was told it was good.

Satan convinced her because she was naive, she did not know of the devil (not that i know of) and maybe she did not eat the fruit as a sign of selfishness, (she did share it with Adam) but she simply wanted to emulate her creator…

God and Satan both exist. I have no doubt about that, its personal thing that is pretty hard to explain.

From: koo29
God and Satan both exist. I have no doubt about that, its personal thing that is pretty hard to explain.

If you had grown up in classical Greece, you'd be saying the same thing about Zeus and Apollo. If you had grown up in India, you'd be saying the same thing about Hinduism. If you had grown up in Tom Cruise's house, you'd be saying the same thing about Xenu.

I know that my mom and dad love each other.

Can I prove it to you? Nope. But that doesn't make it any less real.

From: bullzeye95
If you had grown up in classical Greece, you'd be saying the same thing about Zeus and Apollo. If you had grown up in India, you'd be saying the same thing about Hinduism. If you had grown up in Tom Cruise's house, you'd be saying the same thing about Xenu.

You are somewhat right here. But we live in a time where it is acceptable to not believe in a higher being, so you cannot relate that to his experiences. In ancient greece you were most likely shunned or killed for not "respecting the gods".

Over millions of years, I can see how evolution would have happened.

However, I don't see how a magical God could all of a sudden pop up out of nowhere and create all of this.

He is not magical. He didnt just pop out from somewhere, he has been here forever and just ry to accept it.

From: gerauchert
You are somewhat right here. But we live in a time where it is acceptable to not believe in a higher being, so you cannot relate that to his experiences. In ancient greece you were most likely shunned or killed for not "respecting the gods".

I wouldn't say it's "acceptable" in some places. For the most part, I agree with that though. But what I was trying to say is, whatever you are taught as a young child tends to get permanently and irremovably stuck in your brain.

EDIT: Koo, tell me why I should accept it or I will not try. I'm not looking for a "you'll go to hell if you don't" type of answer; I'm looking for facts that make me believe that there is a god, and that that god is the Judeo-Christian god.

From: tarajunky
I know that my mom and dad love each other.

Can I prove it to you? Nope. But that doesn't make it any less real.

That implies there is a 50% chance they love each other, that the correct answer is halfway between the two extreams.

This is not the case, evidence can be shown that your parents are in love, since they are (probably) married, live together, sleep in the same bed and have children.
I would estimate the probability of your parents loving each other is quite high, like 95% or so.


you cant do the same thing for the tooth fairy, there isnt very much evidence for her existance. I would estimate the probably of her existing is around 0.1%

and you cant do the same thing for God, there isnt very much evidence for his existance. I would estimate the probably of him existing is around 0.1%

From: Yakman
That implies there is a 50% chance they love each other, that the correct answer is halfway between the two extreams.

This is not the case, evidence can be shown that your parents are in love, since they are (probably) married, live together, sleep in the same bed and have children.
I would estimate the probability of your parents loving each other is quite high, like 95% or so.

I don't know, I'm skeptical now. After all, there isn't any scientific method for proving love, one way or the other. Sure, you may think that "love" involves marriage, cohabitation, sexual relations, and possibly children, but there are hundreds of cultures in this world that might have different criteria than the ones you just listed. So which love is the true love? Since we can't define the one correct love, it must not exist at all…

See, that's the same sort of reasoning that has been used to prove that God doesn't exist here in this thread. And yet, I know that love exists, and I have experienced it in my life. I can't prove it to you, but that doesn't change the fact that love is real.

Evolution makes as much sense as God being here.
There was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs.
wat?
NO ONE WAS THERE AND THERE IS NO PROOF EITHER REALLY HAPPENED :rolleyes: why do we still argue, people believe and put their trust in what they think is right, get over it and respect other peoples opinions/belief's.

josh, we're in Discussion & Debates. Use your head.

Hmmm. Say you had an INFINITE time to grow, with nothing that can affect your growth except you, yourself. Don't you think that at some point you would grow? Then, you would also have a point when you would shrink.

So, having an infinite amount of time, anything could happen. Nothing "magically" rearranged. If you knew what evolution was, you'd know that. It all started out with single-celled organisms. They evolved into multi-celled organisms. These grew into animals with fins. Then to limbs. Etc. Etc.

Think about it. IT HAD AN INFINITE AMOUNT OF TIME.

The thing is, before the big bang there wasn't nothing. String theory can do all these random super-complicated things that I don't know much about, and we can actually calculate what happened before the Big Bang now. It may turn out that both science and Christianity say there was no beginning. Of course the way science works, there may not have been time in the beginning or outside of our universe or something like that.

Edit: Tarajunky, love can be tested at least partially by trial :)

i understand that since time started at at the big bang, querying what happened before is like asking what is more south of the south pole.

although, i have heard of time being calculated using imaginary numbers (with i = √-1) when you do that the singularities disappear.
so i dont know, maybe calculating the time before the big bang does make sense…

From: Widget
and we can actually calculate what happened before the Big Bang now.

so post the source please because im really intrested.

im confused!

I dont understand how you can "calculate" what happened before the big bang, if you arent sure the big bang happened in the first place…

Ok, people, I am about to calculate the color red!

16777215 - (65280 + 16711680) = 255
I calculated red before you!

daaaang, sry mate but he got'cha beat. the color red folks, the color red.

Oh and this is post 69, just thought that was an interesting fact.

Article on before the Big Bang. Try a search on Loop Quantum Gravity if you want to know about how they calculated it. Also, apparently the new theory is the Big Bounce instead of the Big Bang.

Loop Quantum Gravity is the combination of Einstein's theory of General Relativity and Quantum Physics/Mathematics.

Its like…. I so want to post… And yet i know i will get trolled by 16 year olds.

We should start a new thread just for tara and yakman. They seem to be the only ones who actually know something about anything :P

O and for the record. I believe in god. I dont really care what documentary's are out there.

Ive watched religulous; Pointless trolling, sticks to one point and refuses to actually ask questions, just makes statments and says they are questions. Never once took a middle stance, had in his mind what he knew was right. It would be like picking ONE spelling mistake from a post, and forever telling you non stop that you must be dumb because you have one spelling mistake. No matter how hard you try to show me math problems you can solve, and that you came first in USA spelling bee, i still say you are the worst speller ever.

And ive also watched zeitgeist and it is so fucking obviously made to troll shit. Its like saying i was born on 13th of feb. OMFG a roman emperor was born on that day so i must be reborn of him or some other shit. Basically if you havnt seen it, it goes like this. Jesus was born on 25th of Dec (Or when we celebrate it) OMFG so was these other 20 guys. O SHIT MUST BE CONSPIRACY!

From: sirlaughsalot
I dont understand how you can "calculate" what happened before the big bang, if you arent sure the big bang happened in the first place…

cause of the power of maths :p

if a throw a ball with an inital velocity of 5 m/s and at an angle of 30 degrees to the horizontal, i can calculate where that ball will land etc
i can do all this, even though iv never thrown that ball

But how do we calculate what masses will be created, what life will be formed, how things will interact just with math?!?!

now you've gone from predicting what will happen before the big bang
to asking about masses creating, life forming (things that happened after the big bang)

== you didnt think about that and its come out sounding stupid

No, I'm asking how we calculate that with math.

"== you didnt think about that and its come out sounding stupid"

TViYH, the argument seems to be going like this?

sirlaughsalot: how can you explain X?
yakman: you can explain it with method G.
TViYH: how do you use method G to explain Y?!?! you cant.


if you see what im getting at, theres no responce other then to say you've made a mistake.

From: Yakman
cause of the power of maths :p

if a throw a ball with an inital velocity of 5 m/s and at an angle of 30 degrees to the horizontal, i can calculate where that ball will land etc
i can do all this, even though iv never thrown that ball

You can calculate throwing a ball because you actually KNOW something about the ball, where it is being thrown and with how much force. However with the big bang, you are trying to prove it by saying "We know what happened before it therefore we can prove it" my question is how can you use something, you have to use some kind of figures FROM the big bang to figure out what happened BEFORE the big bang which is supposed to prove the big bang… making it circular reasoning…

From: sirlaughsalot
You can calculate throwing a ball because you actually KNOW something about the ball, where it is being thrown and with how much force. However with the big bang, you are trying to prove it by saying "We know what happened before it therefore we can prove it" my question is how can you use something, you have to use some kind of figures FROM the big bang to figure out what happened BEFORE the big bang which is supposed to prove the big bang… making it circular reasoning…

i see what you're trying to say, but you've misunderstood.

finding out what happens before the big bang doesnt give evidence for a big bang.

what gives evidence for the big bang is how the universe is expanding, and how there is a uniform cosmic background radiation, and a few other things which i wont go into here because its overkill.

Once we had good evidence for the big bang, we can ponder about what happened before it.
But also as I've already mentioned, it could be that working out what happened before the big bang doesnt make sense, because time started at the big bang so there was no before.

but then i Widget posted saying he could work out what happened before, and he hasnt posted a source of his information yet.
so Widget if you're reading, post your source!

From: Aser
Article on before the Big Bang. Try a search on Loop Quantum Gravity if you want to know about how they calculated it. Also, apparently the new theory is the Big Bounce instead of the Big Bang.

Loop Quantum Gravity is the combination of Einstein's theory of General Relativity and Quantum Physics/Mathematics.

Thank you Yakman for paying attention to my posts. That should be all of the source you need.

Also for calculating masses that will be created they use a combination of Chemistry (to calculate the substances involved) and Quantum Physics (to calculate the forces and math involved)

If you don't know something you can mathematically solve for it by using surrounding information.

Simple example x + 3 = 5. You don't actually know what x is but you can find out by looking for things related to x that remain constant (3 and 5) by doing this you can find the x = 2. Just complicate that past understanding of a regular person and you have the high level mathematics that are capable of solving useful stuff.

From: Aser
Thank you Yakman for paying attention to my posts. That should be all of the source you need.

Also for calculating masses that will be created they use a combination of Chemistry (to calculate the substances involved) and Quantum Physics (to calculate the forces and math involved)

If you don't know something you can mathematically solve for it by using surrounding information.

Simple example x + 3 = 5. You don't actually know what x is but you can find out by looking for things related to x that remain constant (3 and 5) by doing this you can find the x = 2. Just complicate that past understanding of a regular person and you have the high level mathematics that are capable of solving useful stuff.

Sure you can do that, but try to figure it out with 2 unknowns, you will find you can make whatever answer you want but they may or may not be right. for instance x+y=5 x stands for before the big bang y is the big bang and 5 is what the big bang created… That is a realistic example…

Except that there are very many different factors. They know the speed at which the universe is expanding. This gives them the ability to track that back to determine velocities and trajectories for generic mass in the universe. If you know the velocity and trajectory of an object, you can find out where it was propelled from.

Supposedly they have calculated that the universe actually imploded. The forces of the implosion caused the universe to then bounce out. (Big Bounce Theory)

I'm going to guess that this kind of math is way beyond anybody here at SRL. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't work. (You might know this, just an example) You can find out the square root of a number by using derivatives. You may not understand how this is done. That doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Rt7 = 2.6457

You convert that into x^2 - 7 then take the derivative of that 2x. Then you get an x0 value by guessing a whole number it could be. In this case it would be 2. Then plug in the 2 giving you (fast track) 2 - -3/4 = 2.75 Repeated gives you 2.75 - .56/5.5 = 2.648. If the steps are repeated you will get 2.6457 eventually.

Just an example of how math can calculate things you might not think it could.

If I remember right the Big Bounce theory is that two (or more) other universes in the multiverse collided which exploded our universe outwards, so I guess that counts as both an explosion and an implosion (think of clapping your hands, you compress the air together between your hands and the force sends the air outward, creating the clapping sound).

Want a cooler Newtonian's Method to get the reciprocal of a square root?

float InvSqrt (float x){
    float xhalf = 0.5f*x;
    int i = *(int*)&x;
    i = 0x5f3759df - (i>>1);
    x = *(float*)&i;
    x = x*(1.5f - xhalf*x*x);
    return x;
}

All of that code is about 4 times faster than a single assembler FSQRT call. It's not 100% accurate, but it magically gets to within 0.1% (if I understand right).

Would you please tell me how it works? If you can't explain it, it must not work, right?

Edit: That's from the Quake III source code, which Id Software released awhile ago.

500th post :p

From: Widget

Would you please tell me how it works? If you can't explain it, it must not work, right?

Is that to me? Asking to explain how what works, the method I posted above or your script?

As to the other part. I can't explain TPA's and they work… :(

Ah yes a debate on the existence of God. :-). Such a vast and unknowing discussion. I usually am sad of it, because usually what happens when I get into a discussion on the existence of God, is everyone (including me) simply tells their points angrily and considers their point to be aboslutely true and that everyother argument is thus false and that there is no need to examine everyones claims. I hope this will not come to be and I will try in my own power not to do so as I fall into that view as well, well here I go. :-)

I personally believe in God. This is somewhat based off growing up in a Christian atmosphere but not solely contributed to that, I also had time to consider the possibilities in my own mind and come to a point where I believed in God.

I think a lot of times, including me, is that we tend to look God or the existence of God in a human sense which is fine, but we never come to the logic of the mind of God, if he truly does exist. If God does exist , his thoughts, his mind must be far more vast than our own. I say this because of the present state of science and complexity with all that exists. If God does exist then he must of created it.

I kind of want to explain a little my reasoning why I believe in God. To me it makes more sense, if everything is present as we see and to a certain degree there the state we are in on earth is perfect. The distance of the earth from the sun to perfectly give us enough heat/energy to sustain life, the plants creating oxygen for us to breathe and eat for food. I would state that is was by God's design to do so. This of course is not the only reason.
The behavior of man is quite remarkable to me. In a sense that even as children, we understand that we did something wrong. Like a simple lie, a simple steal of candy. There was some feeling that made you understand that the act was wrong. I ask why is that? Could it be genes? Learning? What christianity would say and what I would say is that, God implanted that into us. A moral law. A universal law. That tells us right for wrong. I am only stating a simple and short explanation of it and I hope that this interests you.

I am always happy to talk about God.

-Corn77

From: corn77
I kind of want to explain a little my reasoning why I believe in God. To me it makes more sense, if everything is present as we see and to a certain degree there the state we are in on earth is perfect. The distance of the earth from the sun to perfectly give us enough heat/energy to sustain life, the plants creating oxygen for us to breathe and eat for food. I would state that is was by God's design to do so.

I think that a planet a certain distance from the sun, with all the stuff we need to live, was bound to happen in a universe this big. And I also think that this planet isn't perfect for us, but that we are perfect for this planet (though I hate to use the word "perfect"). You can look at penguins, and then at tropical birds, and the different environments they live in. If the earth was farther or closer to the sun (to a certain degree, I'm not talking a lot closer or farther), either one of those animals could probably survive here, given that they had a source of food of course: penguins could live near the equator if it was farther, and tropical birds could live near the north or south pole if it was closer. My point is that this planet isn't perfect for us, and could still support life if it was farther from or closer to the sun, and that life has adapted to fit any environment on the planet, be it extremely cold, or extremely warm; extremely dry, or extremely wet.

The behavior of man is quite remarkable to me. In a sense that even as children, we understand that we did something wrong. Like a simple lie, a simple steal of candy. There was some feeling that made you understand that the act was wrong. I ask why is that? Could it be genes? Learning? What christianity would say and what I would say is that, God implanted that into us. A moral law. A universal law. That tells us right for wrong. I am only stating a simple and short explanation of it and I hope that this interests you.

I suggest you watch Nice Guys Finish First, a documentary by Richard Dawkins. He explains how morals could have developed through evolution better than I ever could. It's quite interesting.

From: bullzeye95
I think that a planet a certain distance from the sun, with all the stuff we need to live, was bound to happen in a universe this big. And I also think that this planet isn't perfect for us, but that we are perfect for this planet (though I hate to use the word "perfect"). You can look at penguins, and then at tropical birds, and the different environments they live in. If the earth was farther or closer to the sun (to a certain degree, I'm not talking a lot closer or farther), either one of those animals could probably survive here, given that they had a source of food of course: penguins could live near the equator if it was farther, and tropical birds could live near the north or south pole if it was closer. My point is that this planet isn't perfect for us, and could still support life if it was farther from or closer to the sun, and that life has adapted to fit any environment on the planet, be it extremely cold, or extremely warm; extremely dry, or extremely wet.

Hello Bullszeye, That is a good point. And I appreciate it. Welcome, I can initally see that you are a logical man and I am honored to discuss this with you.
I really like your comment "we are perfect for this planet" and I know you dont like the word perfect, because it doesnt describe as well, as I would agree, perfect is a unique word. Our own ability to change according to our environment is quite remarkable as you have stated, but to the extent of saying that a penguin that is stationed at the north pole area to then be at the equator may be too extreme for it to survive. and so with the tropical bird…. And I know that you didnt mean it in that sense. but, there is a sense that whatever environment an animal is located that it will change accordingly, to a certain extent in my opinion.

I Kind of want to go back to Earth and its precise position to the sun. I would say that yes, in our own eyes it could be said that everything adapted and such in order to live in such a place, but I would also say that there is a bigger picture to it, that in the context of God. (were discussing about God right? xD) That God designed everything on earth to be able to sustain animals/plants/life… (see comment below xD)

From: bullzeye95
I suggest you watch Nice Guys Finish First, a documentary by Richard Dawkins. He explains how morals could have developed through evolution better than I ever could. It's quite interesting.

Ill comment on this later. xD. I am actually in my university library and they are closing in a few minutes, so I must go. haha.

pleasure to discussing with you. :-)

-Corn77