SRL Archive - Discussions & Debates

Hello, my name is yachoman and I'm a homosexual.


I've been in a commited relationship for many years, however, there are a few things that are bothering me with the law of the land.

If i were to have a serious medical condition, the doctors would call my next of kin to sort it out. This means calling my father, my only living relative, and someone who I've not spoken to for many years.
I dont want that, my boyfriend knows me best, he should have control over my medical.
If this was a hetrosexual marriage, the couple would have those rights. Is this fair?


If i were to die, my possessions would be transfered to my next of kin, my father.
I dont want that though, i would prefer my boyfriend to get them, but the law of the land stops me.


when filling out a tax form, i miss out on the help and advantages that married people get.




To be honest with you, I dont care about the institution of marriage, i think its outdated to todays world, but because of the law of the land, everyone has to know about it.

To me its nothing more then a contract. You go in with your partner, sign a form, and you are now married, easy.


I move for the government to allow me equality, I want to be married or equivalent. (That means a Civil Union or Civil Partnership)



Discuss here about what you think of my plight, and homosexuality in general.

I agree with what you are saying. But can not a Death-Will direct whom all your possessions go to?

Well, I'm all for you. Do you live in USA? I'm pretty sure here in Canada, they're almost equal, though I wish they fully were.

From: Hy71194
But can not a Death-Will direct whom all your possessions go to?

it can, but that was only one of the countless examples we gays face,
there are no easy solutions to the medical or tax situation, and many more like it.

Your sexuality is a personal choice, in my opinion. I don't think the state/province/whatever government should be allowed to say who's allowed to get married and who isn't. As long as they (you?) keep it out of the streets, then I'm fine with the personal choices.

i have to disagree with you very much there. Sexuality is not a choise, I didnt choose mine and I'm almost certain that you're born with it or something.

I'm sure you've heard of some women (especially feminists) saying "I would be a lesbian if i could choose"



As for keeping it out the streets. You dont see hetrosexual people having sex in the streets, its always confused me why some people expect homosexuals to do it.
I prefer to do it in private as much as you.

Yeah, I see that a lot. I don't really like hanging around "full blown" Catholics. No offense to anyone here, but they tend to think lowly about homosexuals. I feel they should be treated the same in every way. What is different? I mean, tell me one big thing, other than the obvious.

The sponsored link is spot on!


Anyway. I wish you luck in your relationship. I personally don't have much of an opinion on gay marriage.

Although, being gay, I was hoping you could answer a question for me: Do all gays walk around talking and dressing like William Sledd?

http://www.youtube.com/user/WilliamSledd

From: Jason2gs

Although, being gay, I was hoping you could answer a question for me: Do all gays walk around talking and dressing like William Sledd?

http://www.youtube.com/user/WilliamSledd

Heck no. Trust me, a lot of us are indistinguishable from a straight person.

I know a couple, none do. I guess it really depends what's influencing them? I don't know.

Gays deserve all the rights that anyone else does. They are human, no different.

You do choose to be homosexual or straight there is a guy that was a homosexual then he turned straight he thought at first that he was born gay but he realized that you do have a choice and i think its not right for gay's to be married because Marriage is for MAN and a WOMAN thats how God made it…. I dont care if you have a partner or anything but i believe its not right to let gay's get married and most people dont since only two states allow it

I think that people can respectfully disagree on this topic. I believe that our inalienable rights are given to us by God, not by a government. And I don't think that gay marriage is an inalienable right. Freedom of association, yes. Freedom of religion, yes. The rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, yes. Beyond those core rights, government has the obligation to provide a moral framework for society to function.

Where I live prostitution is illegal. Gambling is illegal. Taking illicit drugs is illegal. All for moral reasons. And I support those laws for moral reasons. Other people in society may have different reasons for supporting those laws than I do, and that's fine. That's how society functions. People with all different world views and all different life experiences come together to enact a social morality that supercedes the beliefs of any one person.

The only discrimination that I can find in banning gay marriage is tax benefits. All other rights can be obtained by petition through the legal system. And last I checked, the 14th amendment doesn't extend to tax law, or else everyone would have to pay the same amount in taxes to make sure they were all equal under the law.

I respect people that have a different opinion or a different reason for agreeing with me. I think the way gays in the US have forced their way into marriage through the courts is very disrespectful of other people's opinions, and does more harm than good.

Freedom of religion includes Freedom from religon.


to be honest with you, i always hated how a certain religious book would constantly say I'm dirty and sinning for my sexual preference.
I've also noticed that women get it quite bad too, the bible is almost as sexist as it is homophobic.

When i rejected religion from my life, i found it made me happier, more furfilled and moral.


If its Gods law, as you said tarajunky, why do you not stone people to death for being gay, or working on a holy day? I really dont understand why you've compromised your beliefs like that.



Also, would it make you more comfortable if we got civil partnerships instead of marriage?
Civil partnerships give us all the equal rights, but carries non of the religious and emotion baggage that many people attach to marriage.

So Yakman Im guessing you never read the Bible because i believe it does not say anything about Jesus Stoning people…. Im a Christian i dont like to call it my religion i just believe that Jesus Christ died for all my sins on the cross……
And it is not sexist actually read it and you'll find out;) and i know it does not say anything about stoneing people if they are gay so get your facts straight

Wow yakman, had no idea you were homosexual.

Although I disagree with you, I believe that homosexuality is a choice and not something that you are born with. It's your guys choice though, so hell why should the government be able to tell you that you aren't allowed to marry someone you love, whether they be of the same sex or not.

Don't turn this into a religion war, there are plenty of topics on that :rolleyes:. According to Yakman he has read the bible to answer that question.

It says they will be damn to hell for all eternity.

From: Mjordan
Wow yakman, had no idea you were homosexual.

+1

Move to Sweden, Here you will have it fine!

From: mepure155
So Yakman Im guessing you never read the Bible because i believe it does not say anything about Jesus Stoning people…. Im a Christian i dont like to call it my religion i just believe that Jesus Christ died for all my sins on the cross……
And it is not sexist actually read it and you'll find out;) and i know it does not say anything about stoneing people if they are gay so get your facts straight

i think you'll find that you're the one that hasnt read it, im almost certain that you've only been taught some parts, your parents/teacher/faith leader just left out the bits that dont make sense, contradict each other and are not relevant to today's society.

see these quotes

From: Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

From: Leviticus 20:13
If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them.

From: Romans 1:26-27
For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

From: I Corinthians 6:9
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

From: I Timothy 1:8-11
But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

as for stoning, the bible loves it.

From: Joshua 7:1-26
Achan … took of the accursed thing. … And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. … So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger.

From: Leviticus 24:16
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him.

From: Deuteronomy 22:23-24
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city.

yeah so, owned.
its quite funny to watch how you claim to be christian, but have little knowledge of your own religion.

I have actually taken it upon myself to study the bible some, and the more i studied, the further away it pushed me from christianity and religion.



as for everyone saying "I believe homosexuality is a choise", well, you're simply wrong.
I've explained it in previous posts, cbf to copy/paste it

when i was growing up, i would have chosen to be straight if i could, because back then i thought i should be as normal as possible…

How did you not choose? If you want to be straight then be straight, don't sit here and argue about it. There is obviously something in you that makes you want to be with a man more than a women.

If you honestly can sit there and tell me that you WANT to be with a woman and not a man then grow some balls and be with a women. You obviously want to be with a man.

That is like me saying, I want to ride that rollercoast but I can't. Why? just because that is how it is. NO, you are afraid of heights and to afraid to overcome that fear. So therefore you can't (actually don't want to) ride the rollercoast.

From: mepure155
So Yakman Im guessing you never read the Bible because i believe it does not say anything about Jesus Stoning people…. Im a Christian i dont like to call it my religion i just believe that Jesus Christ died for all my sins on the cross……
And it is not sexist actually read it and you'll find out;) and i know it does not say anything about stoneing people if they are gay so get your facts straight

Actually, roughly 7 seconds of googling found me this (To add onto Yachoman's verses):

From: I Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

From: I Corinthians 11:13-15
Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 15But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

Keep in mind Corinthians is in the new testament, and does relate to Jesus (Though people seem to think that Jesus was more powerful than God and that God's word should be ignored should Jesus even look at someone God's word detested).

From: Deuteronomy 22:13,14
Okay, just read all of Dueteronomy chapter 22

From: Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched.

No fapping for you

From: (Deuteronomy 23:2
One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the congregation of the Lord.

This verse actually means I'm not allowed into the Christian church as I was born an accident ¬_¬. Why don't we still follow that?

From: Ephesians 6:5, Colossians 3:22, Titus 2:9, and 1 Peter 2:18
"Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ."
"Slaves, obey your human masters in everything; don't work only while being watched, in order to please men, but work wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord."
"Slaves are to be submissive to their masters in everything, and to be well-pleasing, not talking back ."
"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel. "

I better go catch me some slaves, 'cause if our country is based on Christianity and should follow it, I'll be protected by it (U.S. specifically)


Who's to say unalienable rights are granted by God? Maybe it's humanity itself that grants them. As far as I can tell, only religious people seem to have a problem with homosexuals.

From: mepure155
there is a guy that was a homosexual then he turned straight he thought at first that he was born gay but he realized that you do have a choice

Hundreds if not thousands of people claim to have seen UFOs, but does that make them real? 'You must not have an opinion on it since you've never seen one, and the people who have seen them must be biased, so therefore they can't be real.' It's similar to how people view homosexuality. You can't have a voice on it unless you're gay, and if you're gay, you must be trying to overthrow everyone else's views with your corrupted way of life.

From: tarajunky
I respect people that have a different opinion or a different reason for agreeing with me. I think the way gays in the US have forced their way into marriage through the courts is very disrespectful of other people's opinions, and does more harm than good.

The courts were made that way on purpose so that the majority can't control the minority. If that happened and there were no courts, there would be nothing to stop them.


Edit: I've read a small part of the bible (small meaning about 4 books). And while Christians keep saying to read God's word to find their way into the church, it has driven me away just like Yachoman. Most of the most devout believers I know have only read the little verses that go on the projectors for their church. One of my friends actually bought and read a good amount of the Satanic Bible (which before you start insisting that he's Heathen, is probably more moral than God was in terms of God's stoning people and such) to make fun of Christians because he's read more of his bible than they did their's.

Ededit: cookie for anyone who reads the whole post :)

From: Widget
Actually, roughly 7 seconds of googling found me this (To add onto Yachoman's verses):


Keep in mind Corinthians is in the new testament, and does relate to Jesus (Though people seem to think that Jesus was more powerful than God and that God's word should be ignored should Jesus even look at someone God's word detested).


No fapping for you

This verse actually means I'm not allowed into the Christian church as I was born an accident ¬_¬. Why don't we still follow that?

I better go catch me some slaves, 'cause if our country is based on Christianity and should follow it, I'll be protected by it (U.S. specifically)


Who's to say unalienable rights are granted by God? Maybe it's humanity itself that grants them. As far as I can tell, only religious people seem to have a problem with homosexuals.


Hundreds if not thousands of people claim to have seen UFOs, but does that make them real? 'You must not have an opinion on it since you've never seen one, and the people who have seen them must be biased, so therefore they can't be real.' It's similar to how people view homosexuality. You can't have a voice on it unless you're gay, and if you're gay, you must be trying to overthrow everyone else's views with your corrupted way of life.


The courts were made that way on purpose so that the majority can't control the minority. If that happened and there were no courts, there would be nothing to stop them.

^
Summing it up, the bible is a whole load of bullshit.
Why do you guys even ATTEMPT to read it??

Go out there and buy yourselves a proper Sci-fi, adventure or whatever kind of book you like!

oh religion == fail :f:

@ Yakman: I had no clue that you were gay :O
But yeah I understand what you mean and there's not a whole lot that one or a few people can do about it =/

From: Hugolord



oh religion == fail :f:

Agreed

From: HyperSecret
How did you not choose? If you want to be straight then be straight, don't sit here and argue about it. There is obviously something in you that makes you want to be with a man more than a women.

And whose fault is that? All functions of the brain are controlled by biological chemicals, so, in essence, does that not mean that its a biological issue, not a mind issue?

You say there is something in him, duh, its not his fault then, nor his choice? Way to contradict yourself.

From: HyperSecret
If you honestly can sit there and tell me that you WANT to be with a woman and not a man then grow some balls and be with a women. You obviously want to be with a man.

GROW SOME BALLS!? AHAH, I'm pretty sure it would take 10x the balls to come out and face a discouraging society then it is to be with a woman. Fighting sexuality could probably be argued to be one of the hardest objectives in anyone's life.

From: HyperSecret
That is like me saying, I want to ride that rollercoast but I can't. Why? just because that is how it is. NO, you are afraid of heights and to afraid to overcome that fear. So therefore you can't (actually don't want to) ride the rollercoast.

Irrelevant reference. Albiet, fear applies to both situations, it would be more like… I am too fat to ride the roller coaster, so I won't. Its not a choice, its a chemical imbalance. Possibly down to the genome level.




Now for my full thoughts:

Marriage, I personally, don't believe is for gays. I believe they deserve all of the same rights, but as the bible is the ruler of marriages, and as posted, is seemingly against same-sex couples, it shouldn't happen.

I do believe in common-law marriages, or non-religious ones. I think the whole issue of religion is a load of bull. But that's another issue.

The fact that people can STILL be discriminated against based solely on something they can't control, sickens me. Its like racism is back, and in full force. Again, sickening.

From: Nava2

Irrelevant reference. Albiet, fear applies to both situations, it would be more like… I am too fat to ride the roller coaster, so I won't. Its not a choice, its a chemical imbalance. Possibly down to the genome level.

It's more of a self-preservation one. "That roller-coaster looks like it'd f•••ing kill me, so I don't want to do it, even though it won't and I'd get a ton of adrenaline from it"

From: Nava2
Marriage, I personally, don't believe is for gays. I believe they deserve all of the same rights, but as the bible is the ruler of marriages, and as posted, is seemingly against same-sex couples, it shouldn't happen.

I do believe in common-law marriages, or non-religious ones. I think the whole issue of religion is a load of bull. But that's another issue.

So you're for the idea, but against the title of it? I don't see how people get so offended. I see nothing wrong with calling people "white" or "black". It's a friggin' color, it's not going to change and I certainly don't think it's offensive.

From: Nava2
The fact that people can STILL be discriminated against based solely on something they can't control, sickens me. Its like racism is back, and in full force. Again, sickening.

I feel the same way :(


Edit: 400th Post :D

From: Yakman
Freedom of religion includes Freedom from religon.


to be honest with you, i always hated how a certain religious book would constantly say I'm dirty and sinning for my sexual preference.
I've also noticed that women get it quite bad too, the bible is almost as sexist as it is homophobic.

When i rejected religion from my life, i found it made me happier, more furfilled and moral.


If its Gods law, as you said tarajunky, why do you not stone people to death for being gay, or working on a holy day? I really dont understand why you've compromised your beliefs like that.



Also, would it make you more comfortable if we got civil partnerships instead of marriage?
Civil partnerships give us all the equal rights, but carries non of the religious and emotion baggage that many people attach to marriage.

You do not understand the Book, why cannot you look after the old testermant, too the new one, when Jesus came and the old laws got scrapped and all he wants if you to except jesus and live a decent life.

No it is like someone that is fat as hell says they can't lose weight and they are the one sitting there eating 4 Big Macs a day sitting around ALL DAY and no exercise and they wonder, WTF why am I so fat.

It is their choice, if they want to lose weight then they need to get their ass up off the couch and lose the weight.


It is their choice to be gay. If they wanted a vagina more than a dick then they would go for a women. They obviously chose to want a dick more than the vagina.

Or they chose that girls don't sexually turn them on while men do.


Do people like beer the first time they drink it? hell no it tastes horrible but they choose to drink it and end up liking it.


Does a person know if they want to be with a guy or a girl right away? no. They grow up seeing that they like the attributes of a male more than a women or vice versa.

From: NiCbaZ
You do not understand the Book, why cannot you look after the old testermant, too the new one, when Jesus came and the old laws got scrapped and all he wants if you to except jesus and live a decent life.

Even in the new testament women are to keep their heads covered and are not allowed to speak in church though, you still ignore these things.

That's true. The bible is sexist and homophobic, we talked about it in religion class in a religious school.

I think that people may take the bible too seriously, as in, if you interpret it differently, it isn't so sexist and homophobic, but trying to get a point across. Hopefully someone high up in the ranks (*cough* Obama *cough* :)) will strive to make all people equal. Someone like him should surely no how bad it feels to be discriminated.

From: HyperSecret
No it is like someone that is fat as hell says they can't lose weight and they are the one sitting there eating 4 Big Macs a day sitting around ALL DAY and no exercise and they wonder, WTF why am I so fat.

It is their choice, if they want to lose weight then they need to get their ass up off the couch and lose the weight.


It is their choice to be gay. If they wanted a vagina more than a dick then they would go for a women. They obviously chose to want a dick more than the vagina.

Or they chose that girls don't sexually turn them on while men do.


Do people like beer the first time they drink it? hell no it tastes horrible but they choose to drink it and end up liking it.


Does a person know if they want to be with a guy or a girl right away? no. They grow up seeing that they like the attributes of a male more than a women or vice versa.

Okay, fine. Then, to prove your point. Go fap to gay porn. See if you can enjoy it. EVEN if you tell yourself you like it. You won't.

I do agree with most of your analogies, just not in this case.

Or they chose that girls don't sexually turn them on while men do.

Pretty sure, no matter how good looking a guy is, he will never turn me on like my gf does. So, another proof that its bio.

HyperSecret, you dont choose who or what you get turned on by.

you ever seen those people who have wierd fetishes? like they want to have sex with a shoe or something.

i just dont get a boner when with a woman, i think i would need to think of men to have hetrosexual sex

HyperSecret, Nava2 already made a good point, a really good one. Something in your brain must 'activate' at birth.

Then why are little kids going around being turned on by the opposite sex or the same sex?

From: HyperSecret
Then why are little kids going around being turned on by the opposite sex or the same sex?

That's true.

I still remember getting hard by the sight of my male classmates in the bathroom. Yikes! The feeling passed, though, and I started getting redcheeks at the very mention of the word "girl".

But, now we ask ourselves this question: Why does it really matter what they choose to stick their penis into?

My apologizes if that sounds blunt…

I am a Christian. I believe [of want to believe] most of what Christianity has to offer. But we're not living in the times we did back when the Bible was written. I simply don't agree with the idea that we can adapt every aspect of the Bible to our modern lives.

From: Yakman

yeah so, owned.
its quite funny to watch how you claim to be christian, but have little knowledge of your own religion.

I have actually taken it upon myself to study the bible some, and the more i studied, the further away it pushed me from christianity and religion.



as for everyone saying "I believe homosexuality is a choise", well, you're simply wrong.
I've explained it in previous posts, cbf to copy/paste it

when i was growing up, i would have chosen to be straight if i could, because back then i thought i should be as normal as possible…

I just wanted to say that I love it when you do this :rolleyes: makes me laugh how you can own people from their own religious text.:f:

From: n c d s
Agreed

+1;

@Widget: You freak, that's a long post :p

Eh, sorry about that :p

Also, to those who haven't figured it out yet, Yachoman is not the same as Yakman. I wonder how many people actually would have flamed if he didn't pretend to be gay :D

My opinion…

Nobody gets to claim a word or ritual as theirs so that nobody else can do it because they don't like them. Just because they want marriage to = Man + woman doesn't mean that's what it is. Your so called god said no. Well mine said yes. How would you like it if I said you can't call it prayer because my religion thinks that prayer is only to be done alone? You would say "Fuck you, I don't care, you sound like a bitch."… Well that is what I think when people try to claim they are better than any body else.

Other opinion/question

Why the hell do people care? Are any of the people that go against your religion really hurting you personally? I doubt it. There will never be a case of "There was a guy being gay, so I died" That is just as bad as being a racist. And I don't care who you are if you are a racist you should die. Prejudice is unacceptable end of story.

honestly whats so wrong about gays? i think its stupid how people can be so offended over what they think is wrong and right.

From: Widget
Even in the new testament women are to keep their heads covered and are not allowed to speak in church though, you still ignore these things.

In the New Testament the church was run by curupt people.

well we all know that it has changed massively since then…

It's just not right. I'm not religious or anything but I just don't think it's right for gay people to get married.

Although this thread largely lacks the rage factor, it's still a good job overall yakman. 8/10, keep it up.

The real question, should people gays be allowed to be common-law?

From: Widget
Eh, sorry about that :p

Also, to those who haven't figured it out yet, Yachoman is not the same as Yakman. I wonder how many people actually would have flamed if he didn't pretend to be gay :D

orly? I thought Yakman's real name was Yachoman, guess I assumed wrong.

From: hollowtek
honestly whats so wrong about gays? i think its stupid how people can be so offended over what they think is wrong and right.

And you aren't? You've never been offended by something you think is right or wrong? Or are you just generalizing the human nature of it?

From: Aser
Prejudice is unacceptable end of story.

How are we being prejudice? We aren't pre-judging anyone. If we were saying they 'look' gay, so therefore they are; then we would be prejudice.

From: HyperSecret
orly? I thought Yakman's real name was Yachoman, guess I assumed wrong.

It isn't. :)

From: Jason2gs
I am a Christian. I believe [of want to believe] most of what Christianity has to offer. But we're not living in the times we did back when the Bible was written. I simply don't agree with the idea that we can adapt every aspect of the Bible to our modern lives.

You win. That was perfect.

I may not be gay, but I support gay marriage. Religion aside, what would be the difference be a heterosexual and homosexual couple married? Nothing. It will not affect you, so why do you care? Will it hurt your morality?

Let gays marry, they can hate each other just like heterosexual couples! :)

tbh i'm against it, i am religious, and as has been posted it's in the bible that man shall not lie with man, they should have the same rights as everyone else, just not the ability to get married under the christian religion, i don't treat homosexual's any differantly but i do look on them with disdain o.0.

From: Yakman
Freedom of religion includes Freedom from religon.


to be honest with you, i always hated how a certain religious book would constantly say I'm dirty and sinning for my sexual preference.
I've also noticed that women get it quite bad too, the bible is almost as sexist as it is homophobic.

When i rejected religion from my life, i found it made me happier, more furfilled and moral.


If its Gods law, as you said tarajunky, why do you not stone people to death for being gay, or working on a holy day? I really dont understand why you've compromised your beliefs like that.



Also, would it make you more comfortable if we got civil partnerships instead of marriage?
Civil partnerships give us all the equal rights, but carries non of the religious and emotion baggage that many people attach to marriage.

Freedom of and from religion, doesnt automaticly make what your doing right, because no matter what you do, God will exist, and ultimately, for a lack of a better word, you will fail. Once you die, you will go right to God, and because of your sins, you will go to hell.

Second, the "certain religous book" (AKA- The Bible), doesnt say your a dirty sinning homo, God says that, your Bible is just the guide of his Word, your "freedom of religion" would alow you to change the Bible to say that your not a dirty sinner, but God still says you are, you dont have to read the bible to be spirital, in fact, you dont even have to know how to read to be spirital, but you do need to know what God wants from you and expects from you to be spirital, so dont blame the Bible for your problems.

Third, When you rejected religion from your life (like many homos) you screwed yourself in the ass (no pun intended).

Fourth, theres nothing in the Bible that says anythign about stoning homos, infact stoning intended to kill or hurt is sinning, all we have to do is try to help the sinners (homos) to be right with God. Also, i work on holidays, but not the true Holidays (if you knew anything about holidays or religion youd know about the true holidays)

Fith, no it would NOT make me fell better, as married or not, your still a homo and therefor a sinner who is against religion, who complains about the problems that you brought onto yourself, and done nothing to try to fix your life.

From: noodlesalan

I may not be gay, but I support gay marriage. Religion aside, what would be the difference be a heterosexual and homosexual couple married? Nothing. It will not affect you, so why do you care? Will it hurt your morality?

Nothing against you at all, but only thing, it does affect me, because also according to religion, im supposed to help those who are not with God, and by technical means, if they refuse, i am supposed to kill them, and if i know, them im obligated, but in todays world, killing under then name of religion is apparently not a good reason anymore.

From: IM_NO_TEST
Freedom of and from religion, doesnt automaticly make what your doing right, because no matter what you do, God will exist, and ultimately, for a lack of a better word, you will fail. Once you die, you will go right to God, and because of your sins, you will go to hell.

Second, the "certain religous book" (AKA- The Bible), doesnt say your a dirty sinning homo, God says that, your Bible is just the guide of his Word, your "freedom of religion" would alow you to change the Bible to say that your not a dirty sinner, but God still says you are, you dont have to read the bible to be spirital, in fact, you dont even have to know how to read to be spirital, but you do need to know what God wants from you and expects from you to be spirital, so dont blame the Bible for your problems.

Third, When you rejected religion from your life (like many homos) you screwed yourself in the ass (no pun intended).

Fourth, theres nothing in the Bible that says anythign about stoning homos, infact stoning intended to kill or hurt is sinning, all we have to do is try to help the sinners (homos) to be right with God. Also, i work on holidays, but not the true Holidays (if you knew anything about holidays or religion youd know about the true holidays)

Fith, no it would NOT make me fell better, as married or not, your still a homo and therefor a sinner who is against religion, who complains about the problems that you brought onto yourself, and done nothing to try to fix your life.

I'm sorry, but what? There is essentially no proof for the existence of God. And that pretty much kills your entire argument right there. And FYI, I'm a confirmed Catholic.

From: IM_NO_TEST
Nothing against you at all, but only thing, it does affect me, because also according to religion, im supposed to help those who are not with God, and by technical means, if they refuse, i am supposed to kill them, and if i know, them im obligated, but in todays world, killing under then name of religion is apparently not a good reason anymore.

WHAT?! Killing under the name of religion was never a good reason. And where the heck are you getting the idea that you're supposed to kill those not with God? He cares for all of His children, even the "lost" ones. I doubt He really wants you to kill them.

From: IM_NO_TEST
Nothing against you at all, but only thing, it does affect me, because also according to religion, im supposed to help those who are not with God, and by technical means, if they refuse, i am supposed to kill them, and if i know, them im obligated, but in todays world, killing under then name of religion is apparently not a good reason anymore.

Are you being serious? First off, how does that affect you? Are you saying if gays can marry you'll no longer be able to stone them? I sure hope you don't go around stoning them as it is. All you've really said is that you believe in God, and everyone else who doesn't has no opinion and if they won't believe in God then they should die, though you won't actually kill them. Why can't we just live in a world of "Do what you want long as nothing bad happens to me"? Gay people don't force you to accept their view as yours. Gay people won't stone you if you aren't gay. Gay people won't try to isolate you and make you feel like you're a disgrace to humanity if you aren't gay. Why should you even be able to act that way to them? It's prejudiced and unfair.

If anything, religion is a choice, not homosexuality. What would happen should I say worshiping gods in churches should be illegal?

(Also, can you get rid of the underscores and overscores in your location bar? It's screwing up Firefox and taking up 2/3 of the page) Nvm Boreas couldnt wait

From: HyperSecret

How are we being prejudice? We aren't pre-judging anyone. If we were saying they 'look' gay, so therefore they are; then we would be prejudice.

Do you know a gay person or are you just assuming that you know what they are like based on sources like the media and other people. Because that is prejudice.

A preconceived preference or idea.

That was from answers.com.

I would assume that most people when considering gay marriage have a preconceived preference. The main one I can think of is the bible.

From: HyperSecret
orly? I thought Yakman's real name was Yachoman, guess I assumed wrong.

It goes along the line of 'Jacquile' or something similar. Maybe one or two letters off.

Well, lets have them rally more. It's easier to kill people in groups – as is common sense – and any gay haters could get their rage out.

It's only a matter of time before people come to accept that gayness is a natural part of life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxy4DFcOvA0

Yeah you cant have the choice of being homosexual or not because theres over 150 animal species that have same sex mates. My solution : come to canada :) Dont listen to much of the bible says, 2000 years ago everyone was a douche, and im a christian :P

From: tarajunky
It's only a matter of time before people come to accept that gayness is a natural part of life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxy4DFcOvA0

Thats a useless link haha. I don't really understand why you posted.. Sorry. Its about a horse haha. But I guess it is going through the same prejudice! :(




@The religious fanatic… GET OUT OF YOUR GOD DAMN HOLE!

From: IM_NO_TEST
Nothing against you at all, but only thing, it does affect me, because also according to religion, im supposed to help those who are not with God, and by technical means, if they refuse, i am supposed to kill them, and if i know, them im obligated, but in todays world, killing under then name of religion is apparently not a good reason anymore.

Try killing me then, b1tch.

F*ck your god.

(excuse my french)

Seriously wake up 2008 MAN, 2008!

I think the funniest part of this threat is people trying to tell Yak that it WAS his choice to be gay when he said it wasn't. Please explain to me exactly how you know it was his choice to be gay when you are not him, you are not gay, and you probably don't know any gay people. There are animals that are gay. Did they choose to be gay, too? It's like me saying I'm not hungry but you telling me I am. How the hell can you tell me I'm hungry? I think I know what I feel better than you do. I think Yak knows his feelings and instinctive drives and urges better than you.

By the way, for everyone feeling sorry for the openly gay horse, that was a spoof made by The Onion.

The fact that so many here didn't get that it was supposed to be FUNNY, and were getting all emo over the poor horse suffering through prejudice just shows how ridiculous this issue has gotten. Just think about the military, for example. Gays are all upset that there's a Don't Ask, Don't Tell rule. If you were worried about being discriminated against, why on earth would you WANT to tell someone, especially a boss at work or commanding officer in the service?? It makes no sense. For some reason gays WANT to tell people, and want pity. Sorry if I don't pity them.

I don't feel sorry for the horse, and I don't feel sorry for gays. If you want to be gay like the horse, then feel free. Just don't bash me for thinking it's unnatural or immoral, because I'm entitled to my opinion just as much as you are to think otherwise. And don't come crying to me that you can't get your own family/friends/society to sanction your urges. Go find a group that does, and live happily ever after.

How can most of you sit here and say they never both anyone that is straight?

True story.

I went to high school with 3 gay people. My 3 closest friends and I were each approached in a sexual/gay manner by each one of these 3 guys, it was very disturbing. 2 of my friends had to get restraining orders on 2 of the 3 gay guys. I seem to find that pretty 'bothersome'.

This may be a rare case because living in california they seem to not be like that so much. BUT I still notice when I walk past a guy and I get elevator eyes from that guy. They may not approach me but it is disturbing coming from a guy.

now you know how girls feel. :P
you get guys trying it on with girls, and the girls dont like the guy at all.

i dont think they did that because they are gay, they did it because they are predators or something.

There is only one real difference between gays and non-gays, and that is their sexual preference, which is something completely personal.
Ofcourse you got those people like with Hypersecret, but you also got hetero men who do like that on women. Besides, it are only a few.

From: Tarajunky

If you want to be gay like the horse, then feel free.

Why would anyone want to be a gay when there are people like you out there, who are against them? As Yakman said, you can't help it. Besides, we live in a country of freedom? Freedom of speech, freedom of weapons, freedom of religion, freedom of sex?

My newspaper printed an article today that discussed years of research that shows that being gay is indeed not a choice as many gay people have biological traits in common. For example, many gay people tend to be left-handed, the younger sibling, and have hair that grows in the opposite direction.

Who cares even if it was their choice. They can do waht ever they feel like….Now somebody is going to say "well I can do waht ever I feel like and I feel like killing you"…

But seriously who really could care. You aren't hating on me because I'm hettero. Stop ragging on others because they are different.

From: Yakman



As for keeping it out the streets. You dont see hetrosexual people having sex in the streets, its always confused me why some people expect homosexuals to do it.
I prefer to do it in private as much as you.

This is where I absolutely 100% agree with you. I don't know why everyone thinks that gays just to sexual things all the time, more than others.

How can you say that it is a persons choice whether to be homosexual or not? It is a genetic thing, you are literally born homosexual. My older brother is gay, and he said that he tried to 'go' straight for 5 years, and he couldn't get these homosexual thoughts away. He was always a flamboyant homosexual.

And as for these 'religion' people who think their holy book is the world and they should follow that, you are ignorant beyond belief. The bible is the biggest book of stories in the world. The church wrote all that crap so idiots like you would believe what they wanted you too. The bible is quite fascist to be honest..

Why do people say that they are not being prejudice, ie HyperSecret, then he goes on to explain about how he was prejudice to homosexual people who come onto them? I read through your little bit then thought of what Yakman said about guys coming onto girls? Its the same, to be honest… Girls dont get restraining orders on guys when they come onto them do they? And whats up with everyone thinking gays are sexual deviants who fuck eachother in public and want to have anal sex with everybody?


We did something at school about prejudice, and one of the topics was gays. We had to give two things that we were scared of about homosexuals, they were;

- They can come onto me
- They will try to rape me



Out of 175 people, noone had been raped by a gay person. Noone had been come onto by a gay person. Gay people have to feel affection towards the person they come onto, they dont come onto everybody. You should be flattered, HyperSecret, that these people took an interest in you, for homosexuals have a hard time finding people who are attractive in their eyes. Your ignorance is pathetic, you let a homosexual down the same as you let a hetrosexual down, gently.

It is either right or wrong.

It is right.

Everyone has their own 'normal', so in the eyes of a gay person, they are 'normal'

I do have a christian religion, but, i know people cannot help it if they are and most of the actually make an effort to get out of it, most of the fail because it is a genetic thing.

And about the thing again gay guys coming on to you.. it has never ever happend to me, and if it did it would just laugh it off and get over it.

u should be able to marry , you have a right not to believe just as much as people have the right to believe!

stoning people= savage

From: koo29
It is either right or wrong.

No shit…

Griff, lol.

I didn't know you were Gay, Yak?
Finally, another homosexual. :p

I always support your posts, they make a lot of sense to me.

From: Torrent of Flame
It is a genetic thing, you are literally born homosexual. My older brother is gay, and he said that he tried to 'go' straight for 5 years, and he couldn't get these homosexual thoughts away. He was always a flamboyant homosexual.

And as for these 'religion' people who think their holy book is the world and they should follow that, you are ignorant beyond belief. The bible is the biggest book of stories in the world. The church wrote all that crap so idiots like you would believe what they wanted you too. The bible is quite fascist to be honest..

Why do people say that they are not being prejudice, ie HyperSecret, then he goes on to explain about how he was prejudice to homosexual people who come onto them? I read through your little bit then thought of what Yakman said about guys coming onto girls? Its the same, to be honest… Girls dont get restraining orders on guys when they come onto them do they? And whats up with everyone thinking gays are sexual deviants who fuck eachother in public and want to have anal sex with everybody?


We did something at school about prejudice, and one of the topics was gays. We had to give two things that we were scared of about homosexuals, they were;

- They can come onto me
- They will try to rape me



Out of 175 people, noone had been raped by a gay person. Noone had been come onto by a gay person. Gay people have to feel affection towards the person they come onto, they dont come onto everybody. You should be flattered, HyperSecret, that these people took an interest in you, for homosexuals have a hard time finding people who are attractive in their eyes. Your ignorance is pathetic, you let a homosexual down the same as you let a hetrosexual down, gently.

It's not purely genetic, its also based on experience and the situations and events we encounter. There have been many studies for the genetics and against, but its dubious. Maybe it is purely societal. :rolleyes: Other than that I fullly agree


Regardless I don't care what homosexuals do. After I found out Neill Patrick Harris was gay I could care less :f: .

From: Torrent of Flame
It is right.

Everyone has their own 'normal', so in the eyes of a gay person, they are 'normal'

It is neither right nor wrong. It just is. Just like having a certain coloring of you skin is not right or wrong.

People need to learn that conformity sucks and being an individual is great. Individuality is the only reason to live. If everyone was the same you wouldn't need to live because all of your goals would be the same as everybody else. We should celebrate diversity not try to destroy it.

From: Yakman
i think you'll find that you're the one that hasnt read it, im almost certain that you've only been taught some parts, your parents/teacher/faith leader just left out the bits that dont make sense, contradict each other and are not relevant to today's society.

see these quotes








as for stoning, the bible loves it.







yeah so, owned.
its quite funny to watch how you claim to be christian, but have little knowledge of your own religion.

I have actually taken it upon myself to study the bible some, and the more i studied, the further away it pushed me from christianity and religion.



as for everyone saying "I believe homosexuality is a choise", well, you're simply wrong.
I've explained it in previous posts, cbf to copy/paste it

when i was growing up, i would have chosen to be straight if i could, because back then i thought i should be as normal as possible…

if im not mistaken all that is taken from the old testament. after jesus died for us, god mellowed down quite a bit. obviously before that all this happend. he is the creator of the world. and we sin against the creator of the WORLD everyday. so of course he got mad what do you expect? but as far as i know none of that is in the new testament AFTER jesus died for us

From: oliver1205
if im not mistaken all that is taken from the old testament. after jesus died for us, god mellowed down quite a bit. obviously before that all this happend. he is the creator of the world. and we sin against the creator of the WORLD everyday. so of course he got mad what do you expect? but as far as i know none of that is in the new testament AFTER jesus died for us

If the Old Testament is so irrelevant, why do private schools and churches teach from it? I hear stuff out of Psalms all the time.

I think someone else in this thread said that Jesus said he agrees with the Old Testament or something to that effect.

I feel you yachman, although i dont support gay marriage and am strongly apposed to homosexuality.

The bible directly states that marriage is a unification between a man and a woman. If two men or two women want to commit to each other, they should come up with something new entirely, but not call it a marriage. Call it a unification if you will. These are just my thoughts.

~thed

From: IM_NO_TEST
Freedom of and from religion, doesnt automaticly make what your doing right, because no matter what you do, God will exist, and ultimately, for a lack of a better word, you will fail. Once you die, you will go right to God, and because of your sins, you will go to hell.

Second, the "certain religous book" (AKA- The Bible), doesnt say your a dirty sinning homo, God says that, your Bible is just the guide of his Word, your "freedom of religion" would alow you to change the Bible to say that your not a dirty sinner, but God still says you are, you dont have to read the bible to be spirital, in fact, you dont even have to know how to read to be spirital, but you do need to know what God wants from you and expects from you to be spirital, so dont blame the Bible for your problems.

Third, When you rejected religion from your life (like many homos) you screwed yourself in the ass (no pun intended).

Fourth, theres nothing in the Bible that says anythign about stoning homos, infact stoning intended to kill or hurt is sinning, all we have to do is try to help the sinners (homos) to be right with God. Also, i work on holidays, but not the true Holidays (if you knew anything about holidays or religion youd know about the true holidays)

Fith, no it would NOT make me fell better, as married or not, your still a homo and therefor a sinner who is against religion, who complains about the problems that you brought onto yourself, and done nothing to try to fix your life.

Nothing against you at all, but only thing, it does affect me, because also according to religion, im supposed to help those who are not with God, and by technical means, if they refuse, i am supposed to kill them, and if i know, them im obligated, but in todays world, killing under then name of religion is apparently not a good reason anymore.

You sir, are an ignorant ass hole. So you are saying that being homosexual is worse then all the sins you will commit in your lifetime? You have never lied or done wrong to another person? These are all "sins" no?

You are basically implying that because homosexuality is a sin, you get the "you go straight to hell card", but the fact that you will sin every day will be just fine.

And you say that if people dont accept your religion that they should be KILLED???? What the hell is wrong with you dude? Take a look at yourself in the mirror and get your own shit straight before you go on judging others, because I have a feeling that Yakman lives a much more moral life than you.

"Holier Than Thou" – Metallica

No more!
The craps rolls out your mouth again
Haven't changed, your brain is still gelatin
Little whispers circle around your head
Why don't you worry about yourself instead

Who are you? where ya been? where ya from?
Gossip is burning on the tip of your tongue
You lie so much you believe yourself
Judge not lest ye be judged yourself

Holier than thou
You are
Holier than thou
You are

You know not

Before you judge me take a look at you
Can't you find somethig better to do
Point the finger, slow to understand
Arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand

It's not who you are it's who you know
Others lives are the basis of your own
Burn your bridges build them back with wealth
Judge not lest ye be judged yourself

Holier than thou
You are
Holier than thou
You are

You know not

From: thedetro125
I feel you yachman, although i dont support gay marriage and am strongly apposed to homosexuality.

The bible directly states that marriage is a unification between a man and a woman. If two men or two women want to commit to each other, they should come up with something new entirely, but not call it a marriage. Call it a unification if you will. These are just my thoughts.

~thed

They can call it marriage if they want to. You cannot claim words. Just because the bible defines a word in a certain way does not mean that it correctly defines it. I could write a random book and say that marriage is a unification between a rock and twenty two pounds of liquid lithium. That doesn't mean it is the definition. Just like the saying "You can't believe everything you see on television", you can't believe everything you read in a book. Just a thought, if heterosexual people don't want to have the same ceremony as homosexual people maybe they should change the title of their ceremony instead of requiring an unreasonable change from others.
Nothing against you personally, but try not see the world as others tell you to. Try to see the world as it is.

From: gerauchert
You sir, are an ignorant ass hole. So you are saying that being homosexual is worse then all the sins you will commit in your lifetime? You have never lied or done wrong to another person? These are all "sins" no?

You are basically implying that because homosexuality is a sin, you get the "you go straight to hell card", but the fact that you will sin every day will be just fine.

And you say that if people dont accept your religion that they should be KILLED???? What the hell is wrong with you dude? Take a look at yourself in the mirror and get your own shit straight before you go on judging others, because I have a feeling that Yakman lives a much more moral life than you.

I agree. Seriously.[to IM_NO_TEST] I think that you are the one going to hell. You can't just insult people like that just because of a little book you read once, or maybe didn't and just listened to a corrupted version told by a so called preacher. You don't know he will go straight to god and then be dammed to hell. Did you ever once think that maybe your holy book doesn't get everything right? Maybe some stupid homophobe like you just thought they wanted to add a part saying that homosexuality was wrong. I could edit in a part of a book. It would be as easy as pie.

I read a book once that said that people that follow the christian religion are all liars and will try to decieve me straight to eternal damnation. Should I believe that just because I read it once. I don't know. You're making a pretty convincing case for them.[/to IM_NO_TEST]

From: Widget
If the Old Testament is so irrelevant, why do private schools and churches teach from it? I hear stuff out of Psalms all the time.

I think someone else in this thread said that Jesus said he agrees with the Old Testament or something to that effect.

its not irrelevant at all but, its before jesus died. when jesus died we had the chance to be saved therefore god isnt as angry if we are svaed.

Oh right, this just crossed my mind.

Quick Google search says Jesus himself never explicitly said anything against homosexuality. Now, going with my other post but in the opposite direction, if Jesus really did make all the Old Testament things ok (which people here use to self-justify their own 'sins'), and he never said anything bad about being gay, then shouldn't it be perfectly fine?

I'll just take a slash in the dark and guess that (depending on age) quite a few of you are sexually active (or would be depending on blah blah blah). In my eyes—if i were to look at it as a Christian would—that would be a worse sin than being homosexual (though of course being both sexually active with other members of the same gender would be worse). Surely you[they] wouldn't be going to hell too?

God is big.

Why is the bible always bought into these arguments? The bible does not say that homosexuality is an abomonation. The term homosexuality was not even around when the bible was written.

Man shall not lie with another man as he lies with a woman.

Have you noticed that there is not one word against lesbian's in the bible? So how is the bible against homosexuality if they allow lesbians but not gays? A bit contradictory there.

EDIT; Found a nice little passage online to back my point up, written by someone else.

Well if you wish to take the Bible as anything other than fiction, then yours is the only rational and honest conclusion. In fact, the Bible contains thousands of admonitions against male-femal sex, a couple against male-male sex and not a single one against female-female sex. Hence it is fair to conclude that female-female is the least sinful, Biblically speaking.

Of course, Christianity proves itself primarily a religion of hate because despite this the majority of Christians discriminate terribly against gay people, male or female. The latest attempt was the Catholic Church in the UK claiming it should be exempt from the Human Rights Act so it could continue in its discrimination - thankfully, it lost.

GAH!

this makes me mad >.<!

"gays are stupid."

-.-

so many people tell me that and I'm just like "a pshhhh!" It's pretty ridiculous what people say about the bible and gays and god and shit..

I'm Christian, I believe in god, and I'm gay.. and I've yet had anything "done" to me.. (some people said I would have consequences or something? before dying..) but w/e.. religion is a lot of bs tbh..

I respect religions, I just think that what they believe is kinda dumb :p

gays should have every right that straights have really.. but honestly, making big deals about it in parades and stuff doesn't really help in my mind..

cuz.. who runs this country? (USA) straight guys..
who could make gay marriage and rights legal? straight guys..
who doesn't like to see hawties running down the street? straight guys..

but anyways..

I HATE people who say that gays aren't religious or are against god or stupid stuff like that, because you've no proof of that stuff, and stereotyping people seems like it wouldn't fly with god to me..

buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut.. w/e..

anyways..

(yak I had no idea you were gay :o that's cool ^^)

c ya

EDIT: wowwwww some idiot said that it's his duty to kill me cuz god said so?

-.-

are you against terrorism? (well.. I already know the answer because your an idiot..)
yes.

so, if a terrorist killed you, all your family, and everyone you knew, because of his religion, would that be just fine with you?
no.

your saying nothing better than killing for your belief.. and your also contradicting yourself if your against terrorism..

and anyways.. your an idiot.. next point..

what's the matter if we get married?

say me and yak get married (not suggesting anything, I'm too young anyways).. will it kill you if we have a piece of paper saying we're married?
no.

and how come you get to get a piece of paper? cuz you like boobs?

that makes TOTAL sense to me.

I don't care if your straight, but you shouldn't have more rights than us.. :\

I respect religion, but its the biggest pile of bullshit in the world.

99_, why do you say gays are stupid, then say you respect them? And you are gay, so why do you say they are stupid? 0_O

I was saying that people tell that to me..

forgot quotes

:p

Dudde. Sounds like you have it tough. I know a few gay people, my brother included, and they dont have it anywhere near how bad you have it.

idk if your being sarcastic or not.. but people have broken my bones :\

not like it's gonna help..

(I have a bible sitting next to me haha just noticed)

From: 99_
idk if your being sarcastic or not.. but people have broken my bones :\

not like it's gonna help..

(I have a bible sitting next to me haha just noticed)

I'm appalled at the way people treat you. Where are you from? How old are you? That is dispicable that people do that to you because of your sexual orientation. You must be very mentally strong.


And I am not being sarcastic.

From: Torrent of Flame
I respect religion, but its the biggest pile of bullshit in the world.

Then apparently you don't really respect it if you think that. I don't for the same reason.

No, I respect the fact that people have a religion, I just think its bullshit.

From: Widget
I'll just take a slash in the dark and guess that (depending on age) quite a few of you are sexually active (or would be depending on blah blah blah). In my eyes—if i were to look at it as a Christian would—that would be a worse sin than being homosexual (though of course being both sexually active with other members of the same gender would be worse). Surely you[they] wouldn't be going to hell too?

you guys also have to be married to be having sex without going to hell.

(you guys != Widget, by the way)

Did you knew that a lot of famous inventors and kings had a gay relationship??? For example Leonardo Da Vinci,Caeser and Alexander The Great all had a 2 kind of relationships: one with there wife and one with another men. The reason why I say this, is because the bible is written in times when homophonic relationships were very common. This makes it even more strange why they say all that bad things in it. Personnaly I find that all people are equal and that they should have the same rights. Black people fought in the fifties for equal rights and now gays should do the same!!

also Alan Turing and Oscar Wilde.

From: Yakman
also Alan Turing and Oscar Wilde.

Oscar Wilde, he's a good writer.
Uncyclopedia abused his name a lot though… ;)

Yakman : How do you feel when somebody replaces the word "stupid" in a sentence, by "gay" ? Offended ?

Anyways :

I don't really have an opinion on this subject, people live their lives however they want as far as they respect some BASE rules.

And as far as I know, there's no rule against Homosexuality.

There is nothing wrong with being homosexual.

Man shall not lie with another man as he lies with a woman.

That in my opinion does not say anything agains homosexuallity. It jsut states a fact. Men do not have a vajina to "do it to" thus you don't "lie" with them the same way.

From: Dr D. Dervish
Yakman : How do you feel when somebody replaces the word "stupid" in a sentence, by "gay" ? Offended ?

me personally, I don't care.. it's slang.. it would be worse if they started saying

"dude, this homework assignment is so homosexual" :p

but that would make me laugh..

and ToF, I'm almost 15, frosh in oregon (USA west coast)

Esh, thats quite a hard age to come out at.

From: Torrent of Flame
Esh, thats quite a hard age to come out at.

I believe that any age would be, with the way society hates on homosexuals in today's society. Blame –> Bible.

When you're talking about biology, the only difference between a "mutation" and a "polymorphism" is the prevalence in society. If more than 1% of the population has a certain mutation, it's not called a mutation anymore, but a polymorphism. It's not politically correct to label a sufficiently large portion of society as "mutants", so it's not done. Of course, this can change based on the population you are a part of. If you live in America you might have a polymorphism, but if you live in China it might be called a mutation.

So, even the scientific community is forced to kowtow to notions of political correctness.

30 years ago homosexuality was listed by the medical establishment as a mental illness, and treated as such. Freud's concepts of Oedipus and Electra complexes were used for extensive psychoanalysis, and typically linked the mental illness in question to some unpleasant experience or situation from childhood.

In the 70's that became politically incorrect, as feminists acted to discredit Freud for a few singular "sexist" comments he had made in his experiments, and gays decided that their mental illness was something to be proud of. They argued that they weren't mutants. They were the same as everyone else and deserved the same treatment and respect as others.

Of course, now we've come full circle, where gays now insist that they really aren't like other people. and that there is a biological cause for their behavior.

Mutation -> polymorphism. It's all political correctness gone awry. I guess as long as you live here in the US, you can demand that your behavior is accepted as a different flavor of normal. If you were to live in a different population, like Iran, you would be a mutant.

I think people should be grateful to live in a free society that allows them to choose their own definitions of normal, rather that being part of a truly oppressive regime. Instead, all we usually hear is whining.

From: tarajunky
I think people should be grateful to live in a free society that allows them to choose their own definitions of normal, rather that being part of a truly oppressive regime. Instead, all we usually hear is whining.

are you saying that I can't whine when they say I'm worthless, or break my bones or when my parents tell me they don't love me? I don't like to whine, but I sure as fuck have the right.

From: Aser
They can call it marriage if they want to. You cannot claim words. Just because the bible defines a word in a certain way does not mean that it correctly defines it. I could write a random book and say that marriage is a unification between a rock and twenty two pounds of liquid lithium. That doesn't mean it is the definition. Just like the saying "You can't believe everything you see on television", you can't believe everything you read in a book. Just a thought, if heterosexual people don't want to have the same ceremony as homosexual people maybe they should change the title of their ceremony instead of requiring an unreasonable change from others.
Nothing against you personally, but try not see the world as others tell you to. Try to see the world as it is.

Marriage came FROM the Bible, the idea of it came directly from the bible, and that was where it was first recorded- states that it is a unification between a man and a woman. They cant call it a marriage, because it would be an incorrect use of the word, but you can say it is a unification.

~thed

From: thedetro125
Marriage came FROM the Bible, the idea of it came directly from the bible, and that was where it was first recorded- states that it is a unification between a man and a woman. They cant call it a marriage, because it would be an incorrect use of the word, but you can say it is a unification.

~thed

It was before your religion, not to mention plenty of others have it too.

From: Wikipedia
The way in which a marriage is conducted has changed over time, as has the institution itself. Although the institution of marriage pre-dates reliable recorded history, many cultures have legends or religious beliefs concerning the origins of marriage.[9]

Edit: I guess that can't apply if you go by it saying it started the world and everything

but the Bible was when it was recorded, which just happens to be not only The Word, but also a historical document proven. (dead sea scrolls, rosetta stone, etc)

~thed

Marriage (or Nuptiality) is a social, religious, spiritual, or legal union of [H]individuals.[/H]

Although the institution of marriage pre-dates reliable recorded history, many cultures have legends or religious beliefs concerning the origins of marriage.

The mythological origin of Chinese marriage is a story about Nüwa and Fu Xi who invented proper marriage procedures after becoming married.

In ancient Chinese society, people of the same surname were not supposed to marry and doing so was seen as incest. However, because marriage to one's
maternal relatives was not thought of as incest, families sometimes intermarried from one generation to another. Over time, Chinese people became more

geographically mobile. Couples were married in what is called an extra-clan marriage, better known as antithetic marriage. This occurred around [H]5000 BC.[/H] According to modern Chinese scholars of a Marxist persuasion, matriarchy prevailed in society at that time, therefore husbands needed to move to, and live with, their wives&#8217; families. Yet individuals remained members of their biological families. When a couple died, the husband and the wife were buried separately in the respective clans&#8217; graveyard. In a maternal marriage, a male would become a son-in-law who lived in the wife&#8217;s home. This happened in the transformation of antithetic marriage into monogamy, which signifies the decline of matriarchy and the growing dominance of patriarchy in the ancient China.

Marriage is an institution that is historically [H]filled with restrictions[/H]. From age, to gender, to social status, restrictions are placed on marriage by society for reasons of passing on healthy genes, to keep property concentrated, or (in some cases) [H]because of prejudice and fear.[/H]

^^^^^^^^^
Wikipedia quotes

Try reading this http://www.counterpunch.org/leupp12132003.html

No investigation, no right to speak

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/173207



http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_is_the_actual_word_marriage_mentioned_in_the_Bible
Hmm… this one is interesting…


These sources seem to suggest that you may be wrong. Even if you were right and somehow the bible was the first time marriage was recorded or as you say it

Marriage came FROM the Bible

it doesn't make you right in saying that marriage is used incorrectly. There are many, many words that have had their meanings changed over the course of history.

I do hope you realize that religious fanatics that think they know everything about the world because they read a book (or more commonly let another tell them what is in it, not truly knowing if they are truthful) are the reason I hate religions. I may be incorrect but I would venture that many others feel the same way.


http://www.allaboutcreation.org/when-was-genesis-written-faq.htm

Bible scholars believe that Genesis was written by Moses, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, during the forty years that the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness (1450 - 1410 B.C.).

Genesis 29:25-27 is the first place that the word marriage appears in the bible. If it was written in 1450BC how did marriage come from it if people were marrying each other thousands of years before it was written?

EDIT: Widget got to it first, took me a while to gather the info.

From: thedetro125
but the Bible was when it was recorded, which just happens to be not only The Word, but also a historical document proven. (dead sea scrolls, rosetta stone, etc)

~thed

If I document something does that mean that I suddenly just made where the event I documented came from. Using your reasoning I did.

Aser, I think like 400 of your posts are in the waste of time out section…

From: griff721
Aser, I think like 400 of your posts are in the waste of time out section…

And this is relevant to the current topic how?

From: Aser
^^^^^^^^^
Wikipedia quotes

Try reading this http://www.counterpunch.org/leupp12132003.html




http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/173207



http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_is_the_actual_word_marriage_mentioned_in_the_Bible
Hmm… this one is interesting…


These sources seem to suggest that you may be wrong. Even if you were right and somehow the bible was the first time marriage was recorded or as you say it
it doesn't make you right in saying that marriage is used incorrectly. There are many, many words that have had their meanings changed over the course of history.

I do hope you realize that religious fanatics that think they know everything about the world because they read a book (or more commonly let another tell them what is in it, not truly knowing if they are truthful) are the reason I hate religions. I may be incorrect but I would venture that many others feel the same way.


http://www.allaboutcreation.org/when-was-genesis-written-faq.htm


Genesis 29:25-27 is the first place that the word marriage appears in the bible. If it was written in 1450BC how did marriage come from it if people were marrying each other thousands of years before it was written?

EDIT: Widget got to it first, took me a while to gather the info.



If I document something does that mean that I suddenly just made where the event I documented came from. Using your reasoning I did.

Wait so you're saying that just because it was written in 1450 BC that it happened in 1450 BC? I'm sorry but the logic of yours is flawed.

From: Ramage
Wait so you're saying that just because it was written in 1450 BC that it happened in 1450 BC? I'm sorry but the logic of yours is flawed.

Wait what? We're saying that the Bible didn't invent marriage, and that people should stop acting like it contains the ultimate definition of marriage.

From: Widget
Wait what? We're saying that the Bible didn't invent marriage, and that people should stop acting like it contains the ultimate definition of marriage.

Sorry if I wasn't being clear enough, was talking about:

Genesis 29:25-27 is the first place that the word marriage appears in the bible. If it was written in 1450BC how did marriage come from it if people were marrying each other thousands of years before it was written?

If his logic is flawed, what's the point of his entire damn long post?

I didn't say that the Genesis happened when it was written. I was simply commenting on how thedetro thinks that marriage came from the bible. I was presenting sources and facts that imply that this is not so.

…You are the only one saying my logic is flawed. Thedetro said that marriage came directly from the bible. If the bible didn't even exist when people were marrying each other then marriage did not come from the bible.

From: Aser
I didn't say that the Genesis happened when it was written. I was simply commenting on how thedetro thinks that marriage came from the bible. I was presenting sources and facts that imply that this is not so.

…You are the only one saying my logic is flawed. Thedetro said that marriage came directly from the bible. If the bible didn't even exist when people were marrying each other then marriage did not come from the bible.

Oh I see what you mean, we're talking about 2 different things then, should read the entire thread next time :p Sorry

You're homosexual. Difference? Not really. You don't go around making fun of people because they wear different shoes than you. To be honest, I don't give the slightest in your sexual beliefs. Everyone has their differences.

From: Yakman
i think you'll find that you're the one that hasnt read it, im almost certain that you've only been taught some parts, your parents/teacher/faith leader just left out the bits that dont make sense, contradict each other and are not relevant to today's society.

see these quotes








as for stoning, the bible loves it.


yeah so, owned.
its quite funny to watch how you claim to be christian, but have little knowledge of your own religion.

I have actually taken it upon myself to study the bible some, and the more i studied, the further away it pushed me from christianity and religion.


as for everyone saying "I believe homosexuality is a choise", well, you're simply wrong.
I've explained it in previous posts, cbf to copy/paste it

when i was growing up, i would have chosen to be straight if i could, because back then i thought i should be as normal as possible…

Hello Yakman, I know Im kind of quoting an early post but I just wanted to help you understand from our perspective, a Christians view. Of course, I dont expect you to understand or agree with my thoughts. I know this isnt totally designated for a "religious debate/discussion" but I think this is important.

I really appreciate your openness of being Gay, it is quite remarkable and encouraging.

I would agree with you that many of times, "Christians" dont know the bible. It is sad for me to even see nonChristians realize this, as I would state that you as many others prob read the bible more than most younger christians. Something that gives me great sadness in heart, not that nonChristians are reading it, but that Christians careless about the bible, an attribute that is detestable to Christianity. but nonetheless, allow me to carry on. :-)

See in the context of the bible, Christians and I believe it to be the very word of God. I believe that there is no single flaw in it. Everything in it is God breathed (2 Tim 3:16). That yes simple and meek men wrote the words, but were influenced by God.

Homosexuallity is condemmed in the bible, and I know that you understand that. And according to the old testament the punishment is be stoned as you also understand. But, something that I am trying to say is that the command to stone homosexuals, for christians is void as are many of the extreme old testament laws. and I will explain that.

In the context of God's People, Israel. God commanded his people to live holy lives, that being set apart from the rest of the word andpleasing to him. Lives that would not conform to sin in the world. in-order-to guide them in that, God gave them commands to cast away wickedness within their community, to prevent corruptness and open rebellion. This does not just include homosexuallity, but many other things. It was only designed for his people in order that his people will worship him alone and turn from sin which is against him. If you would like verses to support what I am saying just let me know, I dont a bible with me, but this is what I have learned over the years of reading and learning of God.

Another thing I wanted to bring up is in the context of God. Is the reason, he is against it. The reason it is condemmed. God's main purpose was for men and women to be the view of marriage. When it was with men and men or woman and woman. It is a distortion of God's purpose of it. I want to go on about other things, but I feel that I have said too much. I dont mean to offend you. I do believe it to be wrong. But, I will not hold it against you and I am commanded not to. God said he will with every kind of sin.

I feel like Christians tend to condemm homosexuallity as the worst sin. But all sins are equally wicked in Gods eyes. There is no level to a scale of sins in Christians. A little white lie and murder are the same in Gods eyes. Thats all Im trying to say.

I feel like ive been going for a while, and I am sorry for the long read. Again, if you feel like a lot of what I was saying wasnt coincided with the bible, just let me know and Ill provide you some verses. and more explanations. I am far from knowing everything from the bible and life, but God has given me a small amount of wisdom. :-)

Thanks for reading.

-corn77

:o

you are officially the coolest hxc christian I know :D

I agree with everything you said..

idk, I haven't really read the bible, as I think a lot of it is kinda ridiculous.. but..

I do believe in God.. and I have a bible in my room :p

if only more people were like you :\

From: 99_
:o

you are officially the coolest hxc christian I know :D

I agree with everything you said..

idk, I haven't really read the bible, as I think a lot of it is kinda ridiculous.. but..

I do believe in God.. and I have a bible in my room :p

if only more people were like you :\

Hello 99,

:-)

I am flattored by your comment. but what does hxc mean? xD. I assumed it meant hardcore, but I just wanted to make sure.

It is cool to hear that you agree with me, as many Christians do not. But, I speak not in accordance to bring myself glory or praise, but give the God who made us and formed us praise and glory. Which he so deserves just by his utter character and beauty. And I pray that this will be your motivation.

Everything I do, I want to do for the glory of God. And I know thats not always the case. I am flawed like all humans, cursed under sinful nature. But it is God's grace and love that sustains me and upholds me, and by that, it gives me much joy. And that is all I have learned to boast in. Is in Christ. Everything else that I boast in, is worthless. Everything that I am or that I have become is by God's grace.

I understand that you think the bible is ridiculous, as I did for many years. It took a big God to convince me otherwise. But, I do think it is the most precious book for a christian to own. It has so dramatically changed my life. The bible is true and a lot it hard to understand and may sound ridiculous, but that is why Christ promised us the Holy Spirit in order to understand it and live by it.

I care about you and that is why I tell you this. someone had to tell me and God used it. :-)

another long write. :/

-corn77

yes it means hard core :p

I don't think the bible is ridiculous, I think how some people interpret it is ridiculous (sorry if I said it bad before =X)..

I think that God made us how we are, so what we do is what he wanted us to do and be.. mostly..

idk.. I just think a lot of people think they know what the bible means and how to be christian, when they think that only what they are doing is right..

like.. "Since your gay, your going against God, so I want to kill you."

people have said that to me before at school..

which, to me, doesn't seem christian at all..

:o

I'm babbling random stuff now.. >.>

From: 99_
yes it means hard core :p

I don't think the bible is ridiculous, I think how some people interpret it is ridiculous (sorry if I said it bad before =X)..

I think that God made us how we are, so what we do is what he wanted us to do and be.. mostly..

idk.. I just think a lot of people think they know what the bible means and how to be christian, when they think that only what they are doing is right..

like.. "Since your gay, your going against God, so I want to kill you."

people have said that to me before at school..

which, to me, doesn't seem christian at all..

:o

I'm babbling random stuff now.. >.>

Hello again.

:-)

Thanks for responding. I greatly appreciate it.

Oh, I thought you meant the Bible was. Thats ok, many people do think it to be ridiculous and to be false. I am sorry about that misconception, but many Christians do believe that The bible isnt reliable, which is false. It saddens me to see that truth, but God promised it would happen, that falsehood would go about his people and enter in our minds. We believe many lies that come into our heads, me included.

I always am greatful to see your openness and to even share your experiences that alarm you to me. Gives me joy to share of what God has done for me, that He will get glory for it.

I dont know how to interpret the bible. I say that, knowing that it is not I that interprets the bible for me, but it is the Holy Spirit that does it within me. It is the Spirit that guides us to the truth. When we feel like, we are the ones that know how to interpret it, or whatever. Pride builds up, it pushes us away from God. We push away God.

We need God so much, just to help us interpret the bible correctly. We need him for everything!! everything I do, I need God to supernaturally strengthen me. Because we are called to be a weak and humble people under a great and powerful God. And he promises that to us if we are humble and broken before him. But when we are prideful and acting big, he will crush us. Not in a sense to destroy us, but to destroy our pride and to make us a humble people before him, so that we will rely on him. It is such a beautiful picture of God getting glory through us, and us watching him do it and praising him for it. I just love it.

Im going to this cut off here, bc I love to talk about God, but sometimes I need to learn to listen more and not talk. But God is so good to me and his children, I see it daily. And everyday it is new and better than before. Praise God.

It was a pleasure.

-corn77

From: corn77
Hello again.

:-)

Thanks for responding. I greatly appreciate it.

Oh, I thought you meant the Bible was. Thats ok, many people do think it to be ridiculous and to be false. I am sorry about that misconception, but many Christians do believe that The bible isnt reliable, which is false. It saddens me to see that truth, but God promised it would happen, that falsehood would go about his people and enter in our minds. We believe many lies that come into our heads, me included.

I always am greatful to see your openness and to even share your experiences that alarm you to me. Gives me joy to share of what God has done for me, that He will get glory for it.

I dont know how to interpret the bible. I say that, knowing that it is not I that interprets the bible for me, but it is the Holy Spirit that does it within me. It is the Spirit that guides us to the truth. When we feel like, we are the ones that know how to interpret it, or whatever. Pride builds up, it pushes us away from God. We push away God.

We need God so much, just to help us interpret the bible correctly. We need him for everything!! everything I do, I need God to supernaturally strengthen me. Because we are called to be a weak and humble people under a great and powerful God. And he promises that to us if we are humble and broken before him. But when we are prideful and acting big, he will crush us. Not in a sense to destroy us, but to destroy our pride and to make us a humble people before him, so that we will rely on him. It is such a beautiful picture of God getting glory through us, and us watching him do it and praising him for it. I just love it.

Im going to this cut off here, bc I love to talk about God, but sometimes I need to learn to listen more and not talk. But God is so good to me and his children, I see it daily. And everyday it is new and better than before. Praise God.

It was a pleasure.

-corn77

that part of God has never made sense to me before.. It does now..

people usually happen to leave out the "so that we will rely on him" part :\

I was always really confused on why God would destroy us for growing out of him..

thank you for talking to me :D I have actually read all of your posts entirely (shocking that I would do that, as I don't like reading), and they are brilliant :)

From: 99_
that part of God has never made sense to me before.. It does now..

people usually happen to leave out the "so that we will rely on him" part :\

I was always really confused on why God would destroy us for growing out of him..

thank you for talking to me :D I have actually read all of your posts entirely (shocking that I would do that, as I don't like reading), and they are brilliant :)

Helloo,

It gave me so much joy to hear that God to used me in order to help you understand how God works amongst his people. There are many things in our lives that tell us lies about God and make us confused. I tend to believe the lies, but God in his grace and power through the holy spirit will guide us to his truth. He promises it.

"God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.."

It is important to understand that God wants us to rely on him. When we were saved by God through Christ. The same faith that had us rely on Christ for forgiveness of sins, will should continue to live in as we rely on him for everything we do in order to know him more.

I was very delighted to speak with you and I have been learning just to encourage Gods children with what he has taught and shown me in my own life. Sometimes I feel like I know nothing, but God is so gracious to me in order to use me and give me some knowledge of Him. I still have so far to go. :-)

But I know God is worth following and obeying. I pray that he will continue to show me his great worth and beauty. It is infinite.

Lol, all my posts are long or seem to be… Praise God. :-)

-corn77

From: corn77
A little white lie and murder are the same in Gods eyes.

…Seriously?

There are two ways I see this going.

1. You are wrong.

2. You show how ridiculous the bible is.

How could anyone be stupid enough to think that a white lie (an often trivial, diplomatic or well-intentioned untruth) is the same as murder. That's almost the same as saying that your parent told you a white lie and you killed them as equal retaliation.

White lies are "well-intentioned"; Murder isn't.

From: Aser
…Seriously?

There are two ways I see this going.

1. You are wrong.

2. You show how ridiculous the bible is.

How could anyone be stupid enough to think that a white lie (an often trivial, diplomatic or well-intentioned untruth) is the same as murder. That's almost the same as saying that your parent told you a white lie and you killed them as equal retaliation.

White lies are "well-intentioned"; Murder isn't.

Hello Aser,

I appreciate your honesty on my comment. And I know how it sounds. To us it is evident that murder in human terms is by far much more damaging than a little white lie. And that is not what I am saying at all. I am not trying to justify murder or to decrease it evilness. It is very evil. I am glad that you look at murder that way.

What I am trying to say, is that equally all sin, whether I lie, steal, murder, or whatever. In God's eyes are equally highly detestable in his sight. To God, It is all about the heart, the condition of the heart. Not the physical heart, but as the bible describes the heart. The bible describes that all of our thoughts, desires, and actions come from the heart. According to the bibles, our hearts are very corrupt (examples Genesis 6:5, Jeremiah 7:24). What God sees in the heart, with murder and lying are the same, because they are both rebellious to God, both displeasing, and both out of the same motives.

I would say, even a white lie is masked in selfish motives that are only used to prevent a sitation not to happen. I say this knowing my own motives when I do tell white lies.

James 2:10

10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Matthew 15:19

"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander."


I am greatful to answer anymore questions and if my explanation was confusing to you, please let me know.

corn

Basically you are saying that it is not ok to support someone when they are feeling down or unhappy if you don't care.

Someone is crying in the corner and it annoys me. Am I supposed to say "Shut up, you are annoying as hell,"? No… I should try to help them feel better even if it causes me to tell a lie.

I'm not going to act like a total ass hole just because god thinks that I am a terrible person because I lie to help someone.

I wouldn't tell a person that their parent's divorce was there fault even if I knew it was. I would tell them a lie so they wouldn't have problems later in life.

How could you follow a god that would look the same on a murderer and a good person.

It isn't right to follow something if it causes you to hurt others.

From: Aser
Basically you are saying that it is not ok to support someone when they are feeling down or unhappy if you don't care.

Someone is crying in the corner and it annoys me. Am I supposed to say "Shut up, you are annoying as hell,"? No… I should try to help them feel better even if it causes me to tell a lie.

I'm not going to act like a total ass hole just because god thinks that I am a terrible person because I lie to help someone.

I wouldn't tell a person that their parent's divorce was there fault even if I knew it was. I would tell them a lie so they wouldn't have problems later in life.

How could you follow a god that would look the same on a murderer and a good person.

It isn't right to follow something if it causes you to hurt others.

Look, hes not saying that you are banished to hell for telling a white lie…

God knows that we sin. We sin every day. However, Jesus sacrificed himself in order for our sins to be washed away. Accepting God into your life and following in the footsteps of Jesus is your way of accepting the gift in which Jesus has offered through his sacrifice.

Whether you have committed murder, adultery, or 100s of white lies… all will be forgiven. All sins are equal, and all sins will be washed away equally.

On a side note; I do believe that it is alright to tell a white lie when it benefits the other person instead of yourself.

this isn't religion, it's gay marriage, so in an attempt to get us back on topic, I feel that gay people should be able to do what they want. I feel they are normal people just as anybody else, and noone should be able to say they aren't allowed to get married, it's like saying because of your preference, we are taking a right away. It's kind of like how black people used to not be able to vote, was there a reason for that? no, it was just to hold them back from something because of racist people. I feel that homophobes just don't let them get married for the same reason blacks couldn't vote many years ago. It is their choice (may not be worded right, because most gay people don't choose to be gay, but just are) to be gay or do what they want, in America who are we to say they aren't allowed to marry someone they love, whether it be the same or opposite sex. I think it is completely unfair for gay marriage to be illegal, and that people should stop being such homophobes and accept that people are gay, and are going to stay gay and want to marry their lover. I have no problems with gays or them getting married, the only thing that would bother me a little bit is if I was walking through a park or something and saw some gay guys making out, but I'd just try to ignore it, and I'd be bothered if a gay guy hit on me knowing I'm straight. So as long as they don't hit on me and do things I'd rather not watch right in front of me, then I'm fine, they can do whatever they want, I just prefer not to be around.

From: Baked0420
I have no problems with gays or them getting married, the only thing that would bother me a little bit is if I was walking through a park or something and saw some gay guys making out, but I'd just try to ignore it, and I'd be bothered if a gay guy hit on me knowing I'm straight. So as long as they don't hit on me and do things I'd rather not watch right in front of me, then I'm fine, they can do whatever they want, I just prefer not to be around.

I agree with the rest of your post…

The only problem is that being uncomfortable with them is just a small step from not accepting them. It is good that you are for them having rights, but the problems you have with them are problems that people use as reasons to deny them rights.

"Gays shouldn't have rights because I don't want them to hit on me" is the most common excuse. Gays aren't rapists. Being gay doesn't mean they will push the issue or stalk you, just say no. That is a personality thing. Anyone could have it, not just homosexual people.

@Baked- I am really glad that you are accepting enough to want them to have rights. That is way more than most people give, but just remember, as long as you are uncomfortable with them around, you won't truly be accepting them.

I think they deserve the same rights the rest of us do… I mean there really isn't much of a difference, the only thing is that we like different people(girls/boys). But I really don't get how a difference this small can cause such riots and uproars whenever this gets mentioned on the news and such. I don't see why some people can't just accept the fact that some people are different than others. But it's kind of like in the 1960s when colored people were discriminated, I think soon this problem will hopefully be resolved :)

I'm sick and tired of hearing about gay rights. Please STFU. Your decision to be gay is a personal choice. I do not care if you or someone else is gay, live your life how you wish to.

Regardless of your religious beliefs, being gay "does not work"(for lack of better terms). Male and females make babies. Simple as that. Thats how every human on this earth body is made.

From: _ChArMz
Regardless of your religious beliefs, being gay "does not work"(for lack of better terms). Male and females make babies. Simple as that. Thats how every human on this earth body is made.

Hello ChArMz,

I appreciate your bluntness with this topic of discussion and I in a sense would agree with what you are saying.

It is quite true that being gay doesn't work. This is basic knowledge, I do not have to argue this point and I am not trying to discredit people who would consider themselves gay. Men and Woman are simply made to be the ones to live together as one.

Decisions, thats what it seems what is it all about. It is our own decision to decide what is true in our own lives. The question then is therefore, what is most benficial motive of our decisions, is it for our happiness, our own pleasure, selfishness?? Is that the best motive? or is there something greater that all of us are missing?

I feel like I have nothing more to add on it.

corn

From: Yakman
i have to disagree with you very much there. Sexuality is not a choise, I didnt choose mine and I'm almost certain that you're born with it or something.

I'm sure you've heard of some women (especially feminists) saying "I would be a lesbian if i could choose"



As for keeping it out the streets. You dont see hetrosexual people having sex in the streets, its always confused me why some people expect homosexuals to do it.
I prefer to do it in private as much as you.

Don't try that. It's a choice, you know it.

From: TViYH
Don't try that. It's a choice, you know it.

Lol, you got trolled by Yakman. He said on the IRC before that he is not gay, he was just using the setting as an example to help people visualize how life would be for gays.

From: TViYH
Don't try that. It's a choice, you know it.

With that logic, you should be able to make yourself be attracted to men also. Can you?

From: TViYH
Don't try that. It's a choice, you know it.

so you're telling me you can suck dick and choose to enjoy it?


if i asked you, im sure you wouldnt be able to explain to me why you find women attrative, you would probably resort to some vague thing like, "its natural".

but you didnt choose to fancy women, and in exactly the same way, gay men dont choose to fancy men.

From: _ChArMz
I'm sick and tired of hearing about gay rights. Please STFU. Your decision to be gay is a personal choice. I do not care if you or someone else is gay, live your life how you wish to.

Regardless of your religious beliefs, being gay "does not work"(for lack of better terms). Male and females make babies. Simple as that. Thats how every human on this earth body is made.

If that's so then shouldn't all the gay people go away by just waiting a generation? I find men completely sexually unattractive and I'd rather not be hit on by them, but I'd be a hypocrite if I said they shouldn't be allowed to do it. There are quite a few women that I wouldn't want hitting on me too :<.

So much for "Land of the free". This is one of the things I don't get about both main political parties, both are out to restrict certain groups of people while insisting that they're promoting "freedom", especially when it comes to things like invading other countries.

Anyway, I think people should be able to decide themselves how to hold a relationship. If they do it "normally", so be it. If they're into bondage, whatever. If they like furries, who really cares. And if they're gay, it's not really all that different. Neither a gay man nor woman are going to have a kid themselves unless they involve heterosexual practices (although there's sperm banks and adoption centers). I think some of this is just that people are upset that parental roles get confused in the process (a lesbian couple would have two mother figures, and a gay (male) couple would probably have two father figures which could influence their children one way or the other), but regular working practices can be seen as worse than this even (when both parents work full-time jobs then after a day of daycare they still neglect their children, and thus the children have no parental figures at all and are only influenced by peers and teachers).

From: Yakman
so you're telling me you can suck dick and choose to enjoy it?


if i asked you, im sure you wouldnt be able to explain to me why you find women attrative, you would probably resort to some vague thing like, "its natural".

but you didnt choose to fancy women, and in exactly the same way, gay men dont choose to fancy men.

It actually is natural. The copulents their bodies give off make our brain attracted to them. Scientifically speaking.

From: TViYH
It actually is natural. The copulents their bodies give off make our brain attracted to them. Scientifically speaking.

Its natural for that person. Thats how their brain works. For a gay person, being attracted to men is natural. For paedophiles, being attracted to children is how their brain works.

Natural is too vague

So, tell me what causes one to be gay. Tell me why they are attracted to men. Tell me that.

From: TViYH
It actually is natural. The copulents their bodies give off make our brain attracted to them. Scientifically speaking.

oooo, look who thinks they are good at science.

copulents spread by smell only.
That doesnt explain why you can be attracted to someone by talking to them over the phone, or by sending them letters or talking on IM.

if it was only copulents, porn would not work because it doesnt give you that smell.

if it was only copulents, people with no sense of smell would never feel attracted.


you, TViYH, are a very dogmatic, narrowminded and i daresay stupid person, which you've shown by your last few posts.

Most people are not actually attracted to other people. They are: "attracted" by lust, pressure, or some other cause.

But the actual physical attractant are copulents and chemical smells.

From: TViYH
But the actual physical attractant are copulents and chemical smells.

As stated by YakMan, 'then how does porn work'?

ok im not gay but i dont think being gay is a sin as taught by religions

casue from i understand its not a choice which mean it cant be a sin becasue u chose to a do a sin

also if its a sin god wouldnt have people able to be gay becasue he doesnt create sin peopel create

From: noidea
As stated by YakMan, 'then how does porn work'?

Porn is lust, it's not actual physical attraction. You want the person, you imagine you are with them, you seeing the image sets something off in the bring which triggers, err, blood to rush to your penis.

From: jpizzle
ok im not gay but i dont think being gay is a sin as taught by religions

casue from i understand its not a choice which mean it cant be a sin becasue u chose to a do a sin

also if its a sin god wouldnt have people able to be gay becasue he doesnt create sin peopel create

Gay != Sin. Doing Gay Stuff == Sin. That is mormon/lds standpoint. I don't judge anyone though, because I do dumb stuff too(not gay though).

From: mormonman
Gay != Sin. Doing Gay Stuff == Sin. That is mormon/lds standpoint. I don't judge anyone though, because I do dumb stuff too(not gay though).

tht was the point of my post tht religions think being gay is a sin when it isnt becasue god doesnt create sin and it isnt a choice

From: jpizzle
tht was the point of my post tht religions think being gay is a sin when it isnt becasue god doesnt create sin and it isnt a choice

i don't think you know java? != is not equal… == is equal.

From: mormonman
i don't think you know java? != is not equal… == is equal.

u lost me

ru talking about the programing java or wut csue i relel dont understand it

From: TViYH
Porn is lust, it's not actual physical attraction. You want the person, you imagine you are with them, you seeing the image sets something off in the bring which triggers, err, blood to rush to your penis.

oh, this is a big revelation.

so you only disapprove of homosexual love, but not lust.

which means its perfectly alright to sleep with many guys, as long as you dont love them, according to you?



if porn isnt physical attraction, then what is it?



anyway, back to point.
its not just porn, you can love someone without smelling them? For example over the phone, letters, etc etc etc
and how can people with no sense of smell love?


love is not something temporary that lasts only as long as you can smell the person, its a feeling built up over time which continues even if you're seperated by massive distances.

From: jpizzle
u lost me

ru talking about the programing java or wut csue i relel dont understand it

yes, java programming.

From: mormonman
yes, java programming.

then can u put what u were trying to say in normal language and not java so i can understand what u were saying

I completely agree with you, it would be discrimination to not let you get married o.O.

From: jpizzle
then can u put what u were trying to say in normal language and not java so i can understand what u were saying

being gay isn't a sin, but doing gay stuff is. <—– mormon belief

From: mormonman
being gay isn't a sin, but doing gay stuff is. <—– mormon belief

gotcha

i dont beleive that is but w/e im not gonna get in a fight over it casue its your belief and everyone is entitled to there beliefs

so lets leave it a thtat

We live in a hypocritical world, especially the west we not more then 20 percent of the worlds population preaching the rest of the world proclaiming our wester moral believes are today's standard the superior truth.
Democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of the individual and emancipation are some of our most valued philosophical treasures.
Yet in our own backyard we shackle those who are different we limit them in their choices, the hypocrisy.

This should not be a debate about whether being gay is a choice, (un)moral, (non)ethical but a self confronting question "are we wise enough to build on the pillars of our western philosophy?".

Being gay is a personal matter, but we cloud our minds with social cohesive believes and that is what limit us, will we ever learn?

Until then i can only wish you luck Yachoman, believe and fight for your rights because in the end only you can determine if the path you follow is right or wrong.

i feel the goverment is unfair with homesexuals. thair no diffrent then straits are. they desurv the same rights as we do. we are all the same on the inside.

From: sk8terbitu
i feel the goverment is unfair with homesexuals. thair no diffrent then straits are. they desurv the same rights as we do. we are all the same on the inside.

No were not for all we know we can all have different colored guts and stuff and all around i just hate homosexuals and when i see them i almost barf and just hope i never have to see another homosexual so hopefully chuck will take care of them all. :norris:

From: thebob142
No were not for all we know we can all have different colored guts and stuff

Yes, I suppose you're right. There's never been an autopsy on a gay person, has there?

From: bullzeye95
Yes, I suppose you're right. There's never been an autopsy on a gay person, has there?

First I was like :| Then I lol'd.

Gays == Normals.

Because, frankly, what is normal?

LOL AT THE 2 ADDS ON THIS THREAD.
http://micro.redenergypatch.com/s-gREPdf728_01_mm2/lp?gclid=CJbosvap-5kCFVaF7QodNR8ZFg
=\ and the other one was about Gay Dating. I cant seem to open it though.

my thoughts: being gay is a choice, BUT whether u choose to be gay or not, your are still equal. marriage on the other hand is a religious ceremony. so no, i do not believe gay people should get married due to the huge distinction of beliefs when compaired to churchs. But, i do believe they should have Civil Unions and they should get equal treatment.

my uncle is gay, and probably one of my favorite relatives (i have over 20 aunts n uncles). do i agree with him being gay… no, but i definitly dont treat him differently. i think he deserves equality also.

will i vote to legalize gay marriage… NO. will i vote to legalize civil unions… YES.

D:<

so gay's are OBVIOUSLY not religious? :/

From: x[Warrior]x3500
marriage on the other hand is a religious ceremony. so no, i do not believe gay people should get married due to the huge distinction of beliefs when compaired to churchs.

And if they are not religious? Sounds like discrimination, not letting them get married because of another's beliefs.

From: x[Warrior]x3500
my thoughts: being gay is a choice, BUT whether u choose to be gay or not, your are still equal. marriage on the other hand is a religious ceremony. so no, i do not believe gay people should get married due to the huge distinction of beliefs when compaired to churchs. But, i do believe they should have Civil Unions and they should get equal treatment.

my uncle is gay, and probably one of my favorite relatives (i have over 20 aunts n uncles). do i agree with him being gay… no, but i definitly dont treat him differently. i think he deserves equality also.

will i vote to legalize gay marriage… NO. will i vote to legalize civil unions… YES.

Or if their religion lets them? Christianity doesn't exactly rule the world…

i know that christianity doesnt rule the world… omg guys all i was saying is why are people stressing an issue that is religious. get a civil union… why do u want to do a religious ceremony? if a religion accepts teh gay comunity and marries them at their place of worship, so be it. but people need to remember that it is a religious ceremony, plain and simple.

once again, i am NOT trying to discriminate… only a moron would think that (because i said many times that i would like them to have civil union- same thing as marriage, different name)


now if you want me to be a little mean, i will be kindly. do i believe that ANY gay person is a christian? NO. any true christian can NOT be gay. notice the word "true". many non christians might be pissed at me for saying that, but i will stand firm on what the Bible says, not what mankind says.

one last thing:

Seperate church and state. It is stupid to have a religious ceremony give tax cuts and other benefits. i would be in favor of having a universal civil union (that gives the same exact benifits of marriage) that would need to be signed and submitted to the government whether or not you are married. i find that to be the most fair.

From: x[Warrior]x3500
but people need to remember that it is a religious ceremony, plain and simple.

It's not a religious ceremony. Marriage was around way before the Bible/Quran/Torah.

once again, i am NOT trying to discriminate… only a moron would think that (because i said many times that i would like them to have civil union- same thing as marriage, different name)

I wasn't necessarily saying that you were discriminating. I meant that, should the state decide to refuse marriage to a certain group of people (which they do), they would be discriminating.

From: bullzeye95
It's not a religious ceremony. Marriage was around way before the Bible/Quran/Torah.

historians dont have details records of events before the bible/quran/torah were even created. so how could u say that marriage was way before that? and also, even if it was (because i personally believe it was) how could u say that there werent any other religions that thrived and held the marriages?

only recently (say 1000 years) has the world seen a huge incline of "non religious marriages" or secular marriages. what am i talking about? i am tlking about marriages that dont include any type of religious leader. like goin to vegas and getting married on the spot. or just having a grand wedding in your backyard (without the religious person to marry u).

2000+ years ago, often times, kingdoms would have national religions. so the rulers would force all people to be married by a religious leader.

since, as far as i know, marriages started from religion (or was affiliated with religion), i believe that it is still a religous act


these are my beliefs. if you dont agree with me, good, i encourage you to research and create your OWN opinion (even if it is the exact oposite than i). i wish you all a good day.

and most of all, i wish that the gay community would stop trying to have marriages, but to start pushing for more rights with what they already have: a civil union

GAY=WRONG
why do you think women have vaginas?
Why don't men?
Because… not god not no religious bullshit, but how nature made us.
I don't get why there are gay people, really i don't… like what flipped that "gay switch" inside your head? Why do you choose it? And don't tell me your born with it because that's just a load of bullshit it! I was born with blonde hair, tell me that i cant chose to make my hair black…see my point? And do you like to stand out? then why HOMOSEXUAL? why not get a mohawk? not many people have those..
My point is, gays should stay away from the public. When i have a kid, i wouldn't want him to be around someone who is homosexual, because that might influence him to be the same. I would just like to keep white, straight supremacy. If you want it your way, then have it your way, but 1 thing, don't influence others to be that way… I'm giving a guarantee that there will be a war because of this in the future…( not on the forums but in real life). HOMOSEXUALS will push it too far, and people will dislike it… about 15 years ago, i told my father that that the "Indians" i ment Muslims and Arabic that i know the difference now, that they will attack the u.s..
Was i wrong? ERM, does 9/11 sound familiar? yeh i though so. You can now just wait and see if there will be one, and remember "we run u.s. posted something like this like 15 years back and he was right, there is a war between gays and straight."

From: We run u.s.
GAY=WRONG
why do you think women have vaginas?
Why don't men?
Because… not god not no religious bullshit, but how nature made us.
I don't get why there are gay people, really i don't… like what flipped that "gay switch" inside your head? Why do you choose it? And don't tell me your born with it because that's just a load of bullshit it! I was born with blonde hair, tell me that i cant chose to make my hair black…see my point? And do you like to stand out? then why HOMOSEXUAL? why not get a mohawk? not many people have those..
My point is, gays should stay away from the public. When i have a kid, i wouldn't want him to be around someone who is homosexual, because that might influence him to be the same. I would just like to keep white, straight supremacy. If you want it your way, then have it your way, but 1 thing, don't influence others to be that way… I'm giving a guarantee that there will be a war because of this in the future…( not on the forums but in real life). HOMOSEXUALS will push it too far, and people will dislike it… about 15 years ago, i told my father that that the "Indians" i ment Muslims and Arabic that i know the difference now, that they will attack the u.s..
Was i wrong? ERM, does 9/11 sound familiar? yeh i though so. You can now just wait and see if there will be one, and remember "we run u.s. posted something like this like 15 years back and he was right, there is a war between gays and straight."

wat.

By Indians do you mean the native Americans that were here before white noobs took over? They, err.. weren't Muslim. People living in India had nothing to do with 9/11.

Change your hair color, I dare you. I bet you can't, not without using a dye. It's the same as a gay person pretending their straight, is it not?

"If you want it your way, then have it your way, but 1 thing, don't influence others to be that way…"
What the hell are you doing? :<

I'll remember your quote, so when in 5 years gay people have all the rights they should have in the US and I can make fun of you :)

*secretly hopes to himself that you get beat up by a gay Muslim black guy*

I would just like to point out that in cases with identical twins, there are numerous reports of one of them being gay and the other not. Seeing as their genetic makeup is essentially identical, it is beyond extremely unlikely that homosexuality is chosen by genetics. Other factors and influences like their relationship with their father (which is usually poor), abuse, or circumstances with siblings have a greater impact in someones likelihood to choose homosexuality.

Extensive research has been done, for example, on behalf of alcoholics to understand the nature of their addictions. While some factors seem to contribute, there are many people who are "predisposed" to, for example, alcoholism, who are not alcoholics. Likewise, criminals – varying from rapists to thieves – have occasionally claimed they were born that way. That is hardly an excuse for their behavior.

While I'm not equating Homosexuality to rapists, my point is this: Just as people who acknowledge they are angry, have an inferiority complex, or are addicted to something and are able to consciously avoid giving into it, homosexuals, rapists, and alcoholics are more than capable of choosing not to give into their urges.

In a small handful of cases they've been able to lead heterosexual lives afterwards. In other cases, they've simply resolved to enjoy life without a relationship.

The real reason why homosexuals engage in homosexuality is because they want to. The point of this post is not to say that is right or wrong, but it is to underline that homosexuals who claim to not have wanted to engage in it or to not have had a choice are either lying or displaying a serious lack of willpower.

Edit: By the way, I just realized I bumped an extremely old Thread. Sorry about that, I was actually linked here from a similar thread, and ended up being interested in this one.

From: Sriro
I would just like to point out that in cases with identical twins, there are numerous reports of one of them being gay and the other not. Seeing as their genetic makeup is essentially identical, it is beyond extremely unlikely that homosexuality is chosen by genetics. Other factors and influences like their relationship with their father (which is usually poor), abuse, or circumstances with siblings have a greater impact in someones likelihood to choose homosexuality.

Extensive research has been done, for example, on behalf of alcoholics to understand the nature of their addictions. While some factors seem to contribute, there are many people who are "predisposed" to, for example, alcoholism, who are not alcoholics. Likewise, criminals – varying from rapists to thieves – have occasionally claimed they were born that way. That is hardly an excuse for their behavior.

While I'm not equating Homosexuality to rapists, my point is this: Just as people who acknowledge they are angry, have an inferiority complex, or are addicted to something and are able to consciously avoid giving into it, homosexuals, rapists, and alcoholics are more than capable of choosing not to give into their urges.

In a small handful of cases they've been able to lead heterosexual lives afterwards. In other cases, they've simply resolved to enjoy life without a relationship.

The real reason why homosexuals engage in homosexuality is because they want to. The point of this post is not to say that is right or wrong, but it is to underline that homosexuals who claim to not have wanted to engage in it or to not have had a choice are either lying or displaying a serious lack of willpower.

Edit: By the way, I just realized I bumped an extremely old Thread. Sorry about that, I was actually linked here from a similar thread, and ended up being interested in this one.

beautiful post and i fully agree.

Something to think about: http://front.moveon.org/two-lesbians-raised-a-baby-and-this-is-what-they-got

Any idea or trait that you have is somehow onset to you by society. This is kind of obvious, as we don't come out of the womb already speaking a language or even knowing how our body functions.

I bet that in your younger years (which you do/don't remember) you most likely witnessed an event that involved something with your father and mother or another couple or whatever that somehow made you switch your ideas. Maybe it was your mom harassing your dad, or the other way around. Either way you subconsciously realized - "Oh this is not right."

From there, your brain has based its thoughts on relationships the same way, but now you think you can't change them.

So therefore, are you born like that? NO. But do you choose to be like that? Not necessarily.

IMHO, such relationships are wrong. There is absolutely no way a person can do to the same sex as them the same thing heterosexuals do. One of the people pretends to be the male counterpart, the other the female. It's unethical, and humans were not created that way.

It's simple to change, you just have to stray away from society for a while, change your ways and come back to realize how you should really interact with others. With enough willpower anything can be done.

/endstory

From: mepure155
You do choose to be homosexual or straight there is a guy that was a homosexual then he turned straight he thought at first that he was born gay but he realized that you do have a choice and i think its not right for gay's to be married because Marriage is for MAN and a WOMAN thats how God made it…. I dont care if you have a partner or anything but i believe its not right to let gay's get married and most people dont since only two states allow it

Wow, it's sad to see how people are so brainwashed.
It has been proven many times and there is many evidence supporting the fact that people are born gay or straight.

From: Grief Seeds
Wow, it's sad to see how people are so brainwashed.
It has been proven many times and there is many evidence supporting the fact that people are born gay or straight.

Guess ur pretty damn brainwashed urself.. Don't listen to the media.. stop watching tv. Can you tell me the difference between a gay baby and a straight baby?

As far as I know, children don't know they're gay.. they decide when they hit puberty.. so I suggest u stop bashing his opinion cuz that was a dumb statement as well. Shit all is proven.. Science can't even understand the quantum entanglement theory fully and yet ur trying to figure out gay vs straight BABIES?! Ppl keep pushing this gay agenda and idea that everyone must be gay.. You don't see us straight ppl saying anything bout turning them straight.. they want everyone to be gay.. gayness is a damn fashion statement in hollywood now. its a trend. If they so gay, why does one gay person in their gay relationship act like a female.. and the other try to be a man? They clearly decide between themselves who take it in the ass and who doesn't.. Why do they even bother talking in that stupid lisp girl voice..

Riddle me this.. when a gay dude is undercover, he talks manly n shit.. all of a sudden he comes out in the open and u hear the voice of a pussy.. why? What was wrong with his voice before huh?

People do CHOOSE to be gay. I just don't see how u can look at another burly ass dude and say u want him. wtf? I mean come on!! Women look so damn good and appealing.. The vagina was specifically made for the male counterpart.. we have sticks, they have holes.. U ejaculate from ur stick, they from their hole.. NOT THEIR ASSHOLE wtf kinda shit is that..

From: mepure155
So Yakman Im guessing you never read the Bible because i believe it does not say anything about Jesus Stoning people…. Im a Christian i dont like to call it my religion i just believe that Jesus Christ died for all my sins on the cross……
And it is not sexist actually read it and you'll find out;) and i know it does not say anything about stoneing people if they are gay so get your facts straight

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

The bible does not discriminate on this dudes. Jesus isn't the one doing the stoning though you are right with that.

I don't care what your personal beliefs are whether religious or otherwise that gives you NO RIGHT to keep other people form pursuing things like gay marriage or being homosexual. You can believe what you want but as soon as it infringes on peoples rights you keep it only as a personal belief.

Also ggzz.. Just stop dude.

From: Dosbag
Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

Things were different in the Old Testament before JC came around. I feel that even though Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin that they should accept homosexuals for who they are, just another human being. Everyone sins according to Christians right? From stealing something trivial or thinking about another woman when you are married to murder. I'm not a christian per say but I feel that if Christians claim that no one is perfect and everyone sins, then why not accept everyone for who they are; Sinners. No sin makes one worse than another according to them right? The only thing wrong with that imo is in that case, homosexuals would have to admit that what they are doing is a sin, which if I was homosexual I wouldn't want to repent every day that I am a homosexual if it's just how I am, kinda like admitting that breathing is a sin or something. I don't appreciate the hatred the church brings upon homosexuality nor do I understand it if Christians are supposed to treat everyone like Jesus would.

tl;dr Christians should accept gays for who they are and quit being dicks to them

From: doublex8
Things were different in the Old Testament before JC came around.

From what ive seen thats from the "new international version"

And according to NiCbaZ

From: NiCbaZ
In the New Testament the church was run by curupt people.

Guess there is no winning.

From: NiCbaZ
You do not understand the Book, why cannot you look after the old testermant, too the new one, when Jesus came and the old laws got scrapped and all he wants if you to except jesus and live a decent life.

From: Widget
Even in the new testament women are to keep their heads covered and are not allowed to speak in church though, you still ignore these things.

From: NiCbaZ
In the New Testament the church was run by curupt people.

From: Dosbag
From what ive seen thats from the "new international version"

That doesn't change the fact that it was written thousands of years before Jesus Christ was born.

From: NiCbaZ
In the New Testament the church was run by curupt people.

Certain church's were. This also depends if you are Catholic or Protestant.

From: doublex8
That doesn't change the fact that it was written thousands of years before Jesus Christ was born.

The new testament still has its questionable passages.

From: ggzz
If they so gay, why does one gay person in their gay relationship act like a female.. and the other try to be a man? They clearly decide between themselves who take it in the ass and who doesn't.. Why do they even bother talking in that stupid lisp girl voice..

Riddle me this.. when a gay dude is undercover, he talks manly n shit.. all of a sudden he comes out in the open and u hear the voice of a pussy.. why? What was wrong with his voice before huh?

A large group of homosexuals prefer frotting and/or oral sex over anal sex. And a lot don't talk with a lisp except for the flamboyant ones. You're being quite the hypocrite saying that OTHER people watch media too much?

From: ggzz
I just don't see how u can look at another burly ass dude and say u want him. wtf? I mean come on!! Women look so damn good and appealing..

Your opinions are very nice, however I fail to see why you would think that everyone has (or should have) the same opinion as you? I'm not even gay and I find vaginas disgusting looking.

As an addon to my earlier post.All from the new testament. Sorry for the text wall.

From: New Testament
# Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

# Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

# Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

# Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

# Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen.19:24). 10:14-15

# Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

# Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28

# "And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors." 18:34

# God is like a rich man who owns a vineyard and rents it to poor farmers. When he sends servants to collect the rent, the tenants beat or kill them. So he sent his son to collect the rent, and they kill him too. Then the owner comes and kills the farmers and rents the vineyard to others. 21:33-41

# "Whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." Whoever falls on "this stone" (Jesus) will be broken, and whomever the stone falls on will be ground into powder. 21:44

# In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:12-13

# God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51

# The servant who kept and returned his master's talent was cast into the "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:30

# Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41

# Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46

Mark

# Jesus explains why he speaks in parables: to confuse people so they will go to hell. 4:11-12

# Jesus sends devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. When the people hear about it, they beg Jesus to leave. 5:12-13

# Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. 6:11

# Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) 7:9-10

From: Harry
I find vaginas disgusting looking.

I can agree that not every vagina is pretty but being gay is wrong.

At the least if your gay please keep it to yourself i don't need to know what your sexual life is like. Do anything you want as long as you don't hurt others.

From: mika
I can agree that not every vagina is pretty but being gay is wrong.

At the least if your gay please keep it to yourself i don't need to know what your sexual life is like. Do anything you want as long as you don't hurt others.

Just as being an alcoholic is wrong, but it's ok as long as it doesn't hurt others? Only difference one is an addiction and the other is pure love.

From: mika
I can agree that not every vagina is pretty but being gay is wrong.

At the least if your gay please keep it to yourself i don't need to know what your sexual life is like. Do anything you want as long as you don't hurt others.

Wait wut?

From: Dosbag
The new testament still has its questionable passages.

From: Dosbag
As an addon to my earlier post.All from the new testament. Sorry for the text wall.

All I see is a lot of parables taken out of context and put into your own words. Besides I was under the impression that most people were aware that the Bible teaches if you don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God you go to hell. Why are all the passages you quoted questionable? They make perfect sense to me. What I am saying is it isn't impossible for a homosexual to not believe in Jesus and God, just extremely difficult to.

From: Dosbag
As an addon to my earlier post.All from the new testament. Sorry for the text wall.

Nothing you said relates to the OP at all…

I've read the bible front to back at least 20+ times. No i'm most definitely not a christian.
but for everyone's bickering… The New Testament Versus the Old Testament…

if you read it, the change in the covenant alters punishments, not whats right/wrong.

I think gay marriage should be legalized. It doesn't affect you in any way, let them be happy.

From: footballjds
Nothing you said relates to the OP at all…

I've read the bible front to back at least 20+ times. No i'm most definitely not a christian.
but for everyone's bickering… The New Testament Versus the Old Testament…

if you read it, the change in the covenant alters punishments, not whats right/wrong.

You must be dense then because I wasnt replying to OP.

Read through the other posts please. This was a reply to all the people saying the old testament was then and the new testament is Jesus wanting you to be happy and X.

Religion has been the motivator for some people in this thread so my post actually does relate to the OP.

From: Nava2
Something to think about: http://front.moveon.org/two-lesbians-raised-a-baby-and-this-is-what-they-got

bump.

From: Nava2
bump.

I LOVE that, saw it yesterday and that's an amazing speech. Gave me chills.

well at least they go to church (the lesbians)

off topic, wouldn't it be great to bang a lesbian?
Now that's a challenge. It's like getting a vegetarian to eat meat.

From: mika
wouldn't it be great to bang a lesbian?
Now that's a challenge. It's like getting a vegetarian to eat meat.

So do you not feel lesbianism is wrong, because you find it sexually appealing?

From: Harry
So do you not feel lesbianism is wrong, because you find it sexually appealing?

More gay guys: More girls for me.

More Lesbians: Less girls for me.

But girl on girl is something.

Marriage is a covenant with God between man and woman. That is the whole idea of marriage, that is where marriage came from. So I really don't understand why an atheist homosexual is complaining about not being able to get married.

I'd also like to say that picking and choosing Bible verses to put a hole in someones faith is fairly easy. As a matter of fact, it was done in the Bible. The most notable time was Satan tempting Jesus Christ.

As for the head covering, this was Jewish custom. If you want to argue Bible, study it, know what you're talking about. Reading random books is not studying.

Oh man, could I put up a fight right now…

I have to go to bed, but I'll be back on Sunday.

There's several ignorant fools that have posted on this thread, it blows my mind.

Just to let you guys know where I stand, I am a Christian. I'm NOT against homosexuality. Homosexuality does not send you to hell, disbelief sends you to hell.

From: nxpert
As for the head covering, this was Jewish custom. If you want to argue Bible, study it, know what you're talking about. Reading random books is not studying.

THIS. Stop reading out of context! Don't read a verse, and try to understand it. Read the entire chapter or book, then think about it. This way you'll get the full context and understand it a whole lot more!

From: nxpert
Marriage is a covenant with God between man and woman. That is the whole idea of marriage, that is where marriage came from. So I really don't understand why an atheist homosexual is complaining about not being able to get married.

I'd also like to say that picking and choosing Bible verses to put a hole in someones faith is fairly easy. As a matter of fact, it was done in the Bible. The most notable time was Satan tempting Jesus Christ.

As for the head covering, this was Jewish custom. If you want to argue Bible, study it, know what you're talking about. Reading random books is not studying.

You seem to have forgotten that anything can be made a God. Also, in the Bible, God created Adam and Eve right? Well, I don't remember reading anywhere that he married them. So basically, they had children out of wedlock, isn't that big no-no?

You're point of the idea of marriage coming from God is invalid, unless you can give me proof otherwise. Which also makes your "So I really don't understand why an atheist homosexual is complaining about not being able to get married." statement mean nothing and just stupid.

I'm tired of these people saying that homosexuality is a sin, and you'll go to hell, and that they chose to be that way. Answer me this: Why would anyone CHOOSE to be hated on, persecuted, out casted, on the other side of extreme bullying, etc? If they had a choice, I'm positive none of them would choose to go through that. The ones that would choose that, are 100x better than I could ever be.

/my two cents.

From: nxpert
So I really don't understand why an atheist homosexual is complaining about not being able to get married.

If you read the first post you would find the answer to this question. Marriage is not a "holy thing" in the 21st century. It's simply a legal bind that most often can decide where money goes in the case of death, child alimony (adopted or otherwise), and other legal problems. You are free to consider marriage what you want, but when it comes down to the law, it's very important that everyone has the same ability to get married, regardless of their partner's sex.

Really, most homosexuals would love to NOT get married. They don't want it because they like god or something, but because it's a very important legal tie.

From: Dosbag
Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

The bible does not discriminate on this dudes. Jesus isn't the one doing the stoning though you are right with that.

I don't care what your personal beliefs are whether religious or otherwise that gives you NO RIGHT to keep other people form pursuing things like gay marriage or being homosexual. You can believe what you want but as soon as it infringes on peoples rights you keep it only as a personal belief.

Also ggzz.. Just stop dude.

I believe I can kill people…

From: Sandstorm
Your sexuality is a personal choice, in my opinion. I don't think the state/province/whatever government should be allowed to say who's allowed to get married and who isn't. As long as they (you?) keep it out of the streets, then I'm fine with the personal choices.

I don't care how old your post is
Far from it, rarely do people choose which sex they like, and in most cases it isn't possible for someone else to comprehend why others like a gender, whether or not they like the same gender as that person.

I have a big population of bi and gay guys on my forums, and I've known them for 5+ years, some even up to 10 years, I don't see what's wrong with letting them get benefits married couples get from the government. I don't like marriage for straight or homosexuals… but the benefits should be present for EVERYONE… straights have the option to get married or just "bonded" by government so they get the "benefits", there's no reason two girls or two guys shouldn't be able to get that too.

I'm totally cool with gay people. I'm totally not cool with flamers. I'm totally not cool with gay flamers. I'm totally not cool with straight flamers. I'm sure you know what I mean by these statements.

I think the government should allow gay marriage. It is not their place to establish a standard for marriage.

However, I feel like full tolerance by society is a long way off. While unfortunate, this is how it is for now, and people need to realize that society's standards will not change overnight. They will change eventually, but everyone has to deal with the fact that it will take longer than it is supposed to.

There have been multiple occasions where two twinborn have different sexual preferences, which highly suggests that there is not something they are born with…

yea no doubt, I don't think we're born with anything in our brain, just a blank hard drive with maybe a basic OS on it

how it's changed and programmed, especially in our very young life, really makes the foundation for what/who you are.

From: ggzz
Guess ur pretty damn brainwashed urself.. Don't listen to the media.. stop watching tv. Can you tell me the difference between a gay baby and a straight baby?

As far as I know, children don't know they're gay.. they decide when they hit puberty.. so I suggest u stop bashing his opinion cuz that was a dumb statement as well. Shit all is proven.. Science can't even understand the quantum entanglement theory fully and yet ur trying to figure out gay vs straight BABIES?! Ppl keep pushing this gay agenda and idea that everyone must be gay.. You don't see us straight ppl saying anything bout turning them straight.. they want everyone to be gay.. gayness is a damn fashion statement in hollywood now. its a trend. If they so gay, why does one gay person in their gay relationship act like a female.. and the other try to be a man? They clearly decide between themselves who take it in the ass and who doesn't.. Why do they even bother talking in that stupid lisp girl voice..

Riddle me this.. when a gay dude is undercover, he talks manly n shit.. all of a sudden he comes out in the open and u hear the voice of a pussy.. why? What was wrong with his voice before huh?

People do CHOOSE to be gay. I just don't see how u can look at another burly ass dude and say u want him. wtf? I mean come on!! Women look so damn good and appealing.. The vagina was specifically made for the male counterpart.. we have sticks, they have holes.. U ejaculate from ur stick, they from their hole.. NOT THEIR ASSHOLE wtf kinda shit is that..

1) Gays want us to be gay as-well? I know some gay kids and they do not care what the fuck I do with my sexuality.
2) Why should you, or anyone, care what a person chooses to be his/her lifestyle? They are not sticking their dicks in your asshole so just let them live that way.

http://www.hetracil.com/

THATS THA SHIIT

Question ? Why does the government reward those who get married? <- with this knowledge it leads to a different argument all together

Just a couple i have found
IF A. children of married couples fare better in life
IF B. marriage leads to a prosperous society

These are not my views, just my observation that you guys have been arguing from the wrong points(Religion).

There's tons of misinformation on this subject that causes people to scream non-sensical things about their "rights" or whatever.

Homosexuals have the exact same marital rights that heterosexuals have. Period. A homosexual man can marry a woman, but cannot marry another man. A heterosexual man can marry a woman, but cannot marry another man. Homosexuals can marry each other, as in a gay man can marry a gay woman.

It seems rather strange to have to point these things out, but it's necessary to stop all the demented hawking from people claiming that it's taking away somebodie's rights. Nobody has a "right" to marry somebody they love. That doesn't exist. Both homosexuals and heterosexuals have the exact same rights at the moment.

The problem is that heterosexuals have the option of marrying the people they are sexually attracted to, homosexuals do not have that option. And please note that "love" is in no way a requirement for marriage.

The debate is whether or not we should change marriage so that it allows everyone who is otherwise eligible for marriage to marry other people who are otherwise eligible for marriage regardless of their gender.

When you start talking about "rights" you get into areas such as inter-family marriage where if a boy wants to marry his 90 year old grandma, according to all common pro same-sex marriage arguments, why should they not be allowed to?

They don't have the right to marry a person of the same sex, legally.

From: Camo Developer
They don't have the right to marry a person of the same sex, legally.

He tried to point out that neither do you. However I think it's quite irrelevant because you wouldn't like to.

From: weequ
He tried to point out that neither do you. However I think it's quite irrelevant because you wouldn't like to.

My response was to his saying, "it's not about rights". When, it has everything to do with rights.

From: weequ
He tried to point out that neither do you. However I think it's quite irrelevant because you wouldn't like to.

That's another point i was trying to make. Nobody has the right to marry anyone "they want to".

There are many situations in which two people love each other, want to get married, but legally can't. Besides same-sex marriage.

From: Camo Developer
My response was to his saying, "it's not about rights". When, it has everything to do with rights.

Well it's about rights only in the sense that homosexuals want new rights to be created that never existed before just so they have the ability to marry people of the same gender.

Same-sex couples should defiantly have a way to enjoy the exact same rights as a married couple, i just don't think achieving it by modifying traditional male-female marriage is the way to do it.

So… man can only marry women and women can only marry man? How is that not discrimination?

From: matviy
That's another point i was trying to make. Nobody has the right to marry anyone "they want to".

There are many situations in which two people love each other, want to get married, but legally can't. Besides same-sex marriage.

I know you're referencing your "boy wants to marry his grandma" here, and other things as well. However, that's a matter of what's morally right.

From: matviy

Same-sex couples should defiantly have a way to enjoy the exact same rights as a married couple, i just don't think achieving it by modifying traditional male-female marriage is the way to do it.

Why? What do you suppose? A "New Marriage" for the homosexuals?

Grief seeds, your statement that there is evidence that people are born gay or straight is incorrect.

From: Grief Seeds
Wow, it's sad to see how people are so brainwashed.
It has been proven many times and there is many evidence supporting the fact that people are born gay or straight.

You may not have read it, but it was just a few posts before your own:

From: Sriro
I would just like to point out that in cases with identical twins, there are numerous reports of one of them being gay and the other not. Seeing as their genetic makeup is essentially identical, it is beyond extremely unlikely that homosexuality is chosen by genetics. Other factors and influences like their relationship with their father (which is usually poor), abuse, or circumstances with siblings have a greater impact in someones likelihood to choose homosexuality.

Extensive research has been done, for example, on behalf of alcoholics to understand the nature of their addictions. While some factors seem to contribute, there are many people who are "predisposed" to, for example, alcoholism, who are not alcoholics. Likewise, criminals – varying from rapists to thieves – have occasionally claimed they were born that way. That is hardly an excuse for their behavior.

While I'm not equating Homosexuality to rapists, my point is this: Just as people who acknowledge they are angry, have an inferiority complex, or are addicted to something and are able to consciously avoid giving into it, homosexuals, rapists, and alcoholics are more than capable of choosing not to give into their urges.

In a small handful of cases they've been able to lead heterosexual lives afterwards. In other cases, they've simply resolved to enjoy life without a relationship.

The real reason why homosexuals engage in homosexuality is because they want to. The point of this post is not to say that is right or wrong, but it is to underline that homosexuals who claim to not have wanted to engage in it or to not have had a choice are either lying or displaying a serious lack of willpower.

Edit: By the way, I just realized I bumped an extremely old Thread. Sorry about that, I was actually linked here from a similar thread, and ended up being interested in this one.

Some people hypothesize homosexuality is caused by hormone differences in the womb of the mother. Claiming in any way that this is evidence that people are born homosexual is intellectually dishonest, fallacious, or at the least, uninformed.

Since at birth it is impossible to tell which children will be homosexual or not, the scientists that conduct these experiments have to use adults. Concluding that hormone differences in adults existed from the moment they were born is wishful thinking. The reality is that the amount of hormones our bodies produce is in constant fluctuation.

Saying that is solid evidence for homosexuality not being a choice would be like saying that people who go through traumatic experiences were born depressed. Simply because their neurotransmitter or hormone levels are elevated when they are tested does not mean they were always elevated.

As a rule of thumb, we don't adapt to our bodies, our bodies and brains adapt to us. We exercise, our body becomes strong. We play violent video-games, we become more aggressive (multiple studies show this). Countries that allow pornography have higher rape rates than those that do not. Listening to sad music can physically make us sadder. Therefore, it's far more logical to conclude that a person becomes homosexual situationally and by personal choice, than to assume that their hormone levels did not change at all over the course of a few decades.

Genetics play a part in whether someone is gay or not, and straight people can chose to turn gay. But for the person who is truly gay, they were born that way.

You are correct that living situations can play a part, but it's genetics too.

From: Camo Developer

I'm tired of these people saying that homosexuality is a sin, and you'll go to hell, and that they chose to be that way. Answer me this: Why would anyone CHOOSE to be hated on, persecuted, out casted, on the other side of extreme bullying, etc? If they had a choice, I'm positive none of them would choose to go through that. The ones that would choose that, are 100x better than I could ever be.

/my two cents.

Why would a person CHOOSE to commit adultery? This usually results in them being hated on, persecuted, out casted, and at times on the other side of extreme bullying. In previous times these people were killed as were homosexuals. So tell me, is adultery a choice?

Some people prefer sex than their own health. That doesn't make it any more or less of a choice.

From: Camo Developer
Genetics play a part in whether someone is gay or not, and straight people can chose to turn gay. But for the person who is truly gay, they were born that way.

You are correct that living situations can play a part, but it's genetics too.

Again, identical twins are called identical twins for a reason. Even a single case where they do not have the same sexual orientation would almost completely cripple the concept of homosexuality being genetic. But it hasn't only happened once – it has happened again, and again, and again. About half of identical twins who are homosexual have a straight identical sibling. So it has everything to do with circumstance and nothing to do with genetics.

Would the anti-gay-marriage people apply the same arguments in the 1960s when inter-racial marriages were being legalised?
After all, black people do have marriage rights. A black man marry a black woman. A white man can marry a white woman.

Now we'd call these views racist. How is their form any different to the anti-gay-marriage arguments we heard in this thread?


Let me quash the red herring of 'rights' straight away.
Rights cannot be natural, like laws of nature, because nature enforces its laws absolutely, whereas rights are frequently broken. Rights cannot be inalienable, because governments or powerful organisations frequently revoke rights. They cannot be God-given, because God originally blessed the rights of monarchy, genocide, polygamy, parental killing of disrespectful children, and other rights no one seriously defends today. Rights cannot be self-evident, because philosophers have been vigorously arguing over them for thousands of years.

It's pretty clear that rights are social constructs, defended by force and open to change and improvement. That's what we're doing now, debating the rights and trying to improve them.



For all the people who think homosexuality is the result of a person choice. I challenge you to be sexually intimate with a man a enjoy it by your own choice.
I guarantee you can't, and this is a strong argument for.


Since I first posted this thread 3 years ago, four US states have legalised same-sex marriage. Connecticut, Iowa, Vermon, New Hampshire and New York.
Eleven states have created legal unions for same-sex couples that offer varying subsets of the rights and responsibilities of marriage under the laws of those jurisdictions: California, Colorado, Hawaii, Maine, Maryland, Nevada, Oregon, Rhode Island, Wisconsin, Illinois and Washington.
Progress indeed. :)

Soon LGBT equality will be just like racial and gender equality: universally accepted and non-negotiable. Homophobics, how does it feel to be in the dustbin of history?

From: Sriro
Why would a person CHOOSE to commit adultery? This usually results in them being hated on, persecuted, out casted, and at times on the other side of extreme bullying. In previous times these people were killed as were homosexuals. So tell me, is adultery a choice?

Some people prefer sex than their own health. That doesn't make it any more or less of a choice.



Again, identical twins are called identical twins for a reason. Even a single case where they do not have the same sexual orientation would almost completely cripple the concept of homosexuality being genetic. But it hasn't only happened once – it has happened again, and again, and again. About half of identical twins who are homosexual have a straight identical sibling. So it has everything to do with circumstance and nothing to do with genetics.

Umm, adultery is a choice. The person who commits adultery decided to do it, ergo, a choice. You don't just walk into a room and oops, you committed adultery.

Yes it is. They prefer sex over their health, which means they choose it. They choose to put sex above health. Homosexuals don't prefer the same sex, thats their livelihood. Again, not a choice.


And yes Yakman, progress is great progress! :)

From: Yakman
For all the people who think homosexuality is the result of a person choice. I challenge you to be sexually intimate with a man a enjoy it by your own choice.
I guarantee you can't, and this is a strong argument for.

How much would you bet?

I'm straight, and I seriously would never be together with a dude, but to win a bet whenever homosexualy is because of genes or choice…

E: Seriosuly. I think genes makes up appeal more to some kind of visual input more than other, but in the end it's the choice that makes you what you are.

Impossible to bet that because enjoyment is a personal thing. You could easily lie, say you enjoyed it and win the bet.

All I ask is you imagine yourself with a man. Now try to choose to enjoy that.

I believe it's a choice, depending on a series of events that have occured to the Man/Girl being Gay.

Girl have probs with Boyfriends , F them… i'm turning Bisexual or Lesbian. (a Co worker told me her story)… It was a choice.

Guy playing with Dolls instead of GI-Joe…. he is more comfortable with the Doll due to it being more peaceful? Happy? Jolly? who knows.

Everything is based on choice mate.
Opinion of mine, please dont take this post offensively.


And you asked zyt3x to be with a man… of course he will say Heck no… because he did not experience the events that a homo man has.

Sounds like logic ya?

Blaming it on genetics is frivolous and an excuse that you have no doubt tattooed on your brain. If you look back thousands of years being gay was almost unheard of/punishable by death. In many countries, like mine, we thought people were going insane! Being gay is a product of a bad upbringing. Maybe you had a bad father, or maybe you didn't have one even? Maybe you were rejected from the Bro club and went to go play with your sister's friends - who knows. It's also the environment. In the U.S. it's the fault of the people who are trying to be "politically correct", "respecting other's lifestyles", ect. In Poland people were so outraged by this blasphemy they basically passed laws jailing (for life) people who taught about homosexuals and capital punishment (HUGE for a Catholic state)/banishment for those who practiced it, ect (Guess how many gay's we have). If people hadn't invented the Boogyman, kids wouldn't be scared of him.
The most ironic thing is that you're -whining- about what you don't have - does greed have no end? If a manufacturer fires a gay person, he is guaranteed a lawsuit - and most likely to lose it. If you call someone homo in my school, you get ISS/some other bull for bullying/prejudice or some kind of other B.S. You have more rights then the normal person has. You get so-called "brownie points" in colleges, jobs (manufacturers get government benefits), everyday life, in basically EVERY SINGLE aspect of life. Yet here you are whining about some kind of miniscule, insignificant loopholes in the law.
Every single gay person I've seen talks in a lissssssp, wears tight pants, jackets without shirts underneath, hangs out with girls, talks about their makeup, goes to the tanning bed (for God's sake!), and talks about how it's genetics! EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM talks about genetics! As if they were world-class scientists! Let me give you a little science! Homosexuals as a group are one of the biggest, if not the biggest, transmitters of STV's/AIDS. It's unnatural, gross, and wrong in every single way! I feel sick even thinking of it. What is this world coming to?
Thank God for the last barriers in this world's Sanity!

Agree very much with ggzz <- quite funny btw.

From: Yakman
All I ask is you imagine yourself with a man. Now try to choose to enjoy that.

Yeah, no problem.

From: dixienormous
Blaming it on genetics is frivolous and an excuse that you have no doubt tattooed on your brain. If you look back thousands of years being gay was almost unheard of/punishable by death. In many countries, like mine, we thought people were going insane! Being gay is a product of a bad upbringing. Maybe you had a bad father, or maybe you didn't have one even? Maybe you were rejected from the Bro club and went to go play with your sister's friends - who knows. It's also the environment. In the U.S. it's the fault of the people who are trying to be "politically correct", "respecting other's lifestyles", ect. In Poland people were so outraged by this blasphemy they basically passed laws jailing (for life) people who taught about homosexuals and capital punishment (HUGE for a Catholic state)/banishment for those who practiced it, ect (Guess how many gay's we have). If people hadn't invented the Boogyman, kids wouldn't be scared of him.
The most ironic thing is that you're -whining- about what you don't have - does greed have no end? If a manufacturer fires a gay person, he is guaranteed a lawsuit - and most likely to lose it. If you call someone homo in my school, you get ISS/some other bull for bullying/prejudice or some kind of other B.S. You have more rights then the normal person has. You get so-called "brownie points" in colleges, jobs (manufacturers get government benefits), everyday life, in basically EVERY SINGLE aspect of life. Yet here you are whining about some kind of miniscule, insignificant loopholes in the law.
Every single gay person I've seen talks in a lissssssp, wears tight pants, jackets without shirts underneath, hangs out with girls, talks about their makeup, goes to the tanning bed (for God's sake!), and talks about how it's genetics! EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM talks about genetics! As if they were world-class scientists! Let me give you a little science! Homosexuals as a group are one of the biggest, if not the biggest, transmitters of STV's/AIDS. It's unnatural, gross, and wrong in every single way! I feel sick even thinking of it. What is this world coming to?
Thank God for the last barriers in this world's Sanity!

Agree very much with ggzz <- quite funny btw.

Ah that's just way to hard to read man lol…
Space it out a tad ;)

From: Zyt3x
Yeah, no problem.

Umm, I kinda had a problem trying this :redface:

From: dixienormous
Blaming it on genetics is frivolous and an excuse that you have no doubt tattooed on your brain. If you look back thousands of years being gay was almost unheard of/punishable by death. In many countries, like mine, we thought people were going insane! Being gay is a product of a bad upbringing. Maybe you had a bad father, or maybe you didn't have one even? Maybe you were rejected from the Bro club and went to go play with your sister's friends - who knows. It's also the environment. In the U.S. it's the fault of the people who are trying to be "politically correct", "respecting other's lifestyles", ect. In Poland people were so outraged by this blasphemy they basically passed laws jailing (for life) people who taught about homosexuals and capital punishment (HUGE for a Catholic state)/banishment for those who practiced it, ect (Guess how many gay's we have). If people hadn't invented the Boogyman, kids wouldn't be scared of him.
The most ironic thing is that you're -whining- about what you don't have - does greed have no end? If a manufacturer fires a gay person, he is guaranteed a lawsuit - and most likely to lose it. If you call someone homo in my school, you get ISS/some other bull for bullying/prejudice or some kind of other B.S. You have more rights then the normal person has. You get so-called "brownie points" in colleges, jobs (manufacturers get government benefits), everyday life, in basically EVERY SINGLE aspect of life. Yet here you are whining about some kind of miniscule, insignificant loopholes in the law.
Every single gay person I've seen talks in a lissssssp, wears tight pants, jackets without shirts underneath, hangs out with girls, talks about their makeup, goes to the tanning bed (for God's sake!), and talks about how it's genetics! EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM talks about genetics! As if they were world-class scientists! Let me give you a little science! Homosexuals as a group are one of the biggest, if not the biggest, transmitters of STV's/AIDS. It's unnatural, gross, and wrong in every single way! I feel sick even thinking of it. What is this world coming to?
Thank God for the last barriers in this world's Sanity!

Agree very much with ggzz <- quite funny btw.

"Incidence is the number of new HIV infections that occur during a given year. CDC estimates that approximately 50,000 people are newly infected with HIV each year in the United States. In 2009 (the most recent year that data are available), there were an estimated 48,100 new HIV infections.[1] Most (61%) of these new infections occurred in gay and bisexual men."
– http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm

Gay's are the minority, the fact that Males that are homosexual or bisexual account for the majority(61%) of new HIV infections is DISGUSTING.
There's WAY more heterosexual intercourse yet homosexual's STILL keep the lead for diseases. I've made my choice, although not based on statistics and the risk of an STD, you make yours.
I'm straight.

From: Harry
If you read the first post you would find the answer to this question. Marriage is not a "holy thing" in the 21st century. It's simply a legal bind that most often can decide where money goes in the case of death, child alimony (adopted or otherwise), and other legal problems. You are free to consider marriage what you want, but when it comes down to the law, it's very important that everyone has the same ability to get married, regardless of their partner's sex.

Really, most homosexuals would love to NOT get married. They don't want it because they like god or something, but because it's a very important legal tie.

Where money goes upon death: Someone's will has the final say.
Child alimony is pretty pointless if they want to BE married because if they're married there is none… If they're not married there are laws about child support, etc.
As far as taxes and a few other smaller less significant things that gays complain about not getting. Please, feel free to purchase a house boat and live on it, quit your job, and stop reporting taxes. If you live in america and you don't think we're open to gays enough than you should try moving to a different state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paraphilias

Many items on that list are obscure fetishes, and a handful are illegal (paedophilia, zoophilia, necrophilia being the most prominent.) I find it highly unlikely that there would be grounds for not permitting marriage in the majority of the cases due to the different-from-the-norm fetish that most people would find "disgusting" or "unnatural" or "not my cup of tea", yet a fetish for the same gender is somehow valid.

So, what's next? Should sodomy be grounds for divorce, since a penis "shouldn't" go there? If a woman uses a strap-on upon a man, is it too similar to homosexual sex and so make marriage wrong and immoral?

Or is it that, in most of the cases, they are a pair of consenting adults who wish to form a bond that is legally accepted and protected in order to make their union official and committed?

Just a bit of off-centre food for thought.

From: senrath
I'm sorry, but what? There is essentially no proof for the existence of God. And that pretty much kills your entire argument right there. And FYI, I'm a confirmed Catholic.

No, you are not a confirmed Catholic. The Catholic religion does not tolerate homosexuals or unbelievers. That's why it requires you to go to Mass, confession, honor the holy days, and follow God's word. You saying that insults me beyond belief. You might be an ex-confirmed Catholic, but just because you went to R.E. class and took the oath - which you've broken so bad in so many ways - does not mean that you are a Catholic. And you know what's funny? I had a gay person in class today stand up and talk about how bad gay's are treated. He was so full of crap and said that "Many Christians don't even know that Paul, the Apostle, was gay." I nearly walked up there and smacked him with my desk. And that whole sentence he said was B.S. I'm still finding it unbelievable about how gay's seriously believe that it's genetics. First of all, none of you has any kind of degree in genetics, second of all being left handed has nothing to do with genetics - loolzzz, what a bunch of tools. You choose which hand to use by which hand you started training with in pre-K. You know as much about genetics as you know about being straight.

From: footballjds
Umm, I kinda had a problem trying this :redface:


"Incidence is the number of new HIV infections that occur during a given year. CDC estimates that approximately 50,000 people are newly infected with HIV each year in the United States. In 2009 (the most recent year that data are available), there were an estimated 48,100 new HIV infections.[1] Most (61%) of these new infections occurred in gay and bisexual men."
– http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm

Gay's are the minority, the fact that Males that are homosexual or bisexual account for the majority(61%) of new HIV infections is DISGUSTING.
There's WAY more heterosexual intercourse yet homosexual's STILL keep the lead for diseases. I've made my choice, although not based on statistics and the risk of an STD, you make yours.
I'm straight.

Agreed
Also, to the person who brought up animals, you made yourself look like a fool. Animals are exactly that, animals. They have no soul, and very little brain. Most of their decisions are passed down through instinct and repetition. Also, many animals do that to show that they are the alpha male. I've never heard a single, reasonable excuse for being gay.

You don't need an excuse to be a homosexual, you just are what you are.

There is no excuse - you are what you make yourself. It's despicable imo. It goes against religion, nature, and even against the human race.

From: Yakman

For all the people who think homosexuality is the result of a person choice. I challenge you to be sexually intimate with a man a enjoy it by your own choice.
I guarantee you can't, and this is a strong argument for.

Scientific studies have found – and I'm sure most of us here know about these, because the LGBT community tends to mention them often – that people who classify themselves as "homophobic" obtain sexual arousal from watching homosexual pornography. It seems humans are quite capable of giving into and enjoying any form of sex. It's simply a matter of allowing yourself to accept it.

Other studies have found that women in the United States receive more endorphins and a greater "high" from eating chocolate, than women in other countries. The studies have correlated this to the fact that chocolate is considered more "sinful" in the United States than in countries where health and physical beauty through dieting are not as stressed by the media.

So not only does it seem that people can adapt to enjoying anything, they can also enjoy it more if it's exotic and they feel like it's "wrong". The disgust one feels for specific types of sex are also learned.

For example, you're right to say that I would not enjoy sex with a man. However, I currently wouldn't enjoy it with anyone or anything and find pornography to be very unappealing - so far as to closing websites that place sexually oriented advertisements on their page. And yet I know many people do enjoy these things. The difference is I chose to focus on how degrading and disgusting pornography and open sexual relationships are, and others chose to focus on how it satisfies their sexual fantasies.

Someone raised as I was and with my morals in mind would likely react as I did. However those who do not learn what I've learned, and who do not choose to associate with the things I associate, and who do not read what I read, will likely see no harm in these activities and therefore not find them disgusting. (Forced Temporary Asexuality FTW!)

So I conclude, based on the above, the highly correlated opinion that: Homosexuals learn to like men, and enjoy it more because of psychological factors. Homosexuals learn to dislike the opposite sex for similar reasons. Bisexuals simply omitted the part of learning to find the opposite sex unappealing.

From: Camo Developer
Umm, adultery is a choice. The person who commits adultery decided to do it, ergo, a choice. You don't just walk into a room and oops, you committed adultery.

Yes it is. They prefer sex over their health, which means they choose it. They choose to put sex above health. Homosexuals don't prefer the same sex, thats their livelihood. Again, not a choice.


And yes Yakman, progress is great progress! :)

As it goes: "Do I love you because you are beautiful, or are you beautiful because I love you?" Sometimes people get cause and effect mixed up. The point I was trying to express is that the same sex is the "livelihood" of homosexuals because they prefer it, not homosexuals prefer the same sex because it's their livelihood. The latter would imply that homosexuals are born that way, and there is more than sufficient evidence already posted on this thread to show conclusively that homosexuality is not something you are born with.

Furthermore, a study was conducted to try and prove that adultery is actually genetic. It failed. Just as did the ones to try and prove Homosexuality was genetic. The point is, if homosexuality is not a choice, neither is adultery. Because cheating would be the "livelihood" of the adulterers. They could argue they simply do not enjoy their lives without it. You wouldn't want to curse them to a life of unhappiness would you?

Homosexuality is not decided by genetics.

Dixie, it goes against whom's religion? Doesn't go against mine. Religion is what me make of it, and it's not defined anywhere. If your opinion is that you don't like gays marrying, then that's fine, it's your opinion. However, don't make them suffer because you don't like it.

Sriro, let me see these studies. You keep bringing them up, I would just like to read the sources so I know what you're referencing.

Also, I never said adultery was genetic. That's a choice the person makes themselves. Unlike being born gay. Just because homosexuality isn't a choice, doesn't mean that cheating is the livelihood of an adulterer. They choose to make that decision, and if they chose to go too far with it, then that's up to them, not me.

You're born gay, you don't choose it.

THE LOVE THAT DARES SPEAK ITS NAME
By James Kirkup

As they took him from the cross
I, the centurion, took him in my arms-
the tough lean body
of a man no longer young,
beardless, breathless,
but well hung.
.
He was still warm.
While they prepared the tomb
I kept guard over him.
His mother and the Magdalen
had gone to fetch clean linen
to shroud his nakedness.
.
I was alone with him.
For the last time
I kissed his mouth. My tongue
found his, bitter with death.
I licked his wound-
the blood was harsh
For the last time
I laid my lips around the tip
of that great cock, the instrument
of our salvation, our eternal joy.
The shaft, still throbbed, anointed
with death's final ejaculation
.
I knew he'd had it off with other men-
with Herod's guards, with Pontius Pilate,
With John the Baptist, with Paul of Tarsus
with foxy Judas, a great kisser, with
the rest of the Twelve, together and apart.
He loved all men, body, soul and spirit. - even me.
.
So now I took off my uniform, and, naked,
lay together with him in his desolation,
caressing every shadow of his cooling flesh,
hugging him and trying to warm him back to life.
Slowly the fire in his thighs went out,
while I grew hotter with unearthly love.
It was the only way I knew to speak our love's proud name,
to tell him of my long devotion, my desire, my dread-
something we had never talked about. My spear, wet with blood,
his dear, broken body all open wounds,
and in each wound his side, his back,
his mouth - I came and came and came
.
as if each coming was my last.
And then the miracle possessed us.
I felt him enter into me, and fiercely spend
his spirit's finbal seed within my hole, my soul,
pulse upon pulse, unto the ends of the earth-
he crucified me with him into kingdom come.
.
-This is the passionate and blissful crucifixion
same-sex lovers suffer, patiently and gladly.
They inflict these loving injuries of joy and grace
one upon the other, till they dies of lust and pain
within the horny paradise of one another's limbs,
with one voice cry to heaven in a last divine release.
.
Then lie long together, peacefully entwined, with hope
of resurrection, as we did, on that green hill far away.
But before we rose again, they came and took him from me.
They knew no what we had done, but felt
no shame or anger. Rather they were gald for us,
and blessed us, as would he, who loved all men.
.
And after three long, lonely days, like years,
in which I roamed the gardens of my grief
seeking for him, my one friend who had gone from me,
he rose from sleep, at dawn, and showed himself to me before
all others. And took me to him with
the love that now forever dares to speak its name.
* * *

It goes against my religion (Catholicism). What is your religion? - and no, atheism is not religion - it is the absence of religion. It specifically says against it in Leviticus 18:22:
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."< You should add that to your quote section in your signature. That sentence about not liking gays marrying… take of the "marrying" and you'll get it right. You miss the whole point; Gays bring it upon themselves. Give me valid proof that you are born gay. I have already shot down basically every single little quirk people have managed to get off some little gay-orgy fansite…left handed lmfao. And Yakman, I hope you know that the person who wrote that poem - an editor from the Gay News was convicted and given a prison sentence for that piece of blasphemous libel. I know it's probably your source of comfort and ejaculation, but please keep it to yourself.
Obviously not a Catholic.
You are not born gay, it is your fault and choice, do not try to blame it on genetics

From: Camo Developer
Dixie, it goes against whom's religion? Doesn't go against mine. Religion is what me make of it, and it's not defined anywhere. If your opinion is that you don't like gays marrying, then that's fine, it's your opinion. However, don't make them suffer because you don't like it.

Sriro, let me see these studies. You keep bringing them up, I would just like to read the sources so I know what you're referencing.

You're born gay, you don't choose it.

Tell you what. You make the effort to explain any experiment that used the scientific method to conclude that homosexuals are born gay (be sure to read through my posts again if you aren't sure, but I debunked at least 4 of them for using unscientific methods and/or bias; so those are obviously not eligible) – even without quoting your sources, and I'll start using a sources list with notations on my posts and provide the studies I used above.

So far I haven't seen you use anything to back up anything you say. Not even allegory like Yakman has. This is more or less a fair trade.

From: Yakman
THE LOVE THAT DARES SPEAK ITS NAME

Feel free to reply to my post(s) at any time!

I didn't say atheism now did I? No. That quote is from the Bible, which has nothing to do with my religion. Don't try to push your ideas on me, especially when you're so closed minded.

If you don't like gays, then oh well. You're just going to have to get use to it then I guess, huh? They're not bad, horrible, crappy, people nor are they abominations. The only thing different is their sexual preference. Why is it so hard for you to accept that? How does gay people marrying you affect you personally? Will you die if they marry? No, you won't be affected in any way, so just let them be happy.

They don't bring it upon themselves, nor do they choose it. Why would they choose to be hated on, bullied, and an outcast? Humans, by nature, designed to fear and avoid pain.

Give me valid proof that you aren't born gay, so far you haven't provided anything legitimate.

You haven't shot down ANYTHING, why would you even think that? Does posting scripture shoot things down now? No, it does not.

You are born gay, it's not their fault. It's their choice to accept it or not, that's the only choice they have.

Open your mind

Also, Sriro, I asked you for proof for my own knowledge. I want to see these studies for the science. I haven't seen you post anything that backs up any of your posts either. You haven't debunked anything, you had no sources.

I know it's probably your source of comfort and ejaculation

Dixie, why are you getting so upset? This is a debate, no need to get hostile.

"that people who classify themselves as "homophobic" obtain sexual arousal from watching homosexual pornography"

I'm sorry are u kidding me? Thats the most biggest piece of shit bs study I have ever heard.. Not to put down your post or your opinion but the person who did that study was clearly a fashionista fag. Sorry to all the gays that get offended at me calling them gay.. wtf u want me to say?

I call a homo, homo and he gets mad.. waw.. Like I previously stated.. gayness is a fashion statement. Here in toronto, these ppl are trying to push gayness into schools.. The prime minister of canada just announced a new law thats going to force all teachers to teach kids about this new "sexual revolution" <– exact words he used..

Now where is the frigign justice in that? Even catholic schools are FORCED to teach such utter bullshit cuz some guys wanna stick their dicks in other men.. and yet u tell me that they're not trying to make a point? Of course they're trying to make a point.. they want the whole friggin world to be gay and accept them and that's not ever going to happen.. They can get their acceptance from some of u guys but will never get accepted by me or anyone else who's attention they really want.. There is a reason these ppl keep pushing gayness and even trying to get it into schools and laws.

These princesses need to suck it up. You don't see me telling any of them that they MUST be straight.. I just don't say shit to them yet they wanna come in our schools n tell us what's considered right and wrong.. waw..

If ur not gay, stop defending them.. There is no damn genetics u can't tell me if a baby will be gay when it's born.. thats a load of bullshit. Excuse to justify them being gay and get accepted. I can easily just as well say that gay babies are born straight and that its genetics and they turned gay because their puberty got messed up..

As for the lisp thing.. Yes every single one of them out there always talks with a lisp, wear V necks that hang hella low, always have their hands up instead of by their sides.. cross their legs like a woman on the train.. and are down right outrageous! and trying to be outgoing about every single thing that happens. They take pictures with the duck lips that girls try to do when they think they're hot, and they also lift one leg when they take a picture.. wtf?

As for the one who said vaginas are ugly.. Not all are gunna be pretty of course or even look good.. besides its a damn hole in their bodies.. hell, girls say the same shit about dicks..

but assholes look no prettier than vaginas at all.. infact they smell hella worse. so thats no reason to justify gayness AT ALL On ANY LEVEL.

I'm not a gay basher but if a gay person ever asks me if its wrong.. the answer is hell yes! Its like those girls that ask u if their fat and they damn right know they are not..

How come gay people have that accent? Do they purposly do that so other people know they are gay?

ggzz, I take everything you just posted as a troll post. It was not needed nor was it accurate in anyway. Also, you're stereotyping, and I can defend anyone I choose.

It's blasphemy. And I never tried to push my ideas on you, don't get too hopeful. And am I wrong that basically the whole point of the thread by Yakman was to push his ideas on others? Get used to it? No lol. Some people still have a some decency. Yes, it does affect me, and many others. As I've pointed out, gays are the leading factor in HIV. You do not say "It's ok, let them have fun in their cesspool of orgy." You squash the bug. Find some cure, whether it's drugs or much, much worse. It bothers me because AID's have spread to normal, innocent people - and it's everyone who contributes fault. What do you know of humans? I've seen humans who embrace pain (so-called emo's), I've seen people do things like piercing and tattoo's to fit in - and you know what? It's all their faults. I am valid proof that you are not born gay. Straight up player. The scripture was proving that it offends my religion, which you asked. I shot down that silly little left hand theory, the fact that none of you knows anything about genetics, and the fact that humans ARE above animals.
Let me give you a little scenerio. A perfectly straight man goes to prison for life with some friends who were caught robbing a bank with him. He sees other gays in the shower and around the compound. Several years later, Jack notices that one of his friends, who was previously straight (for sure), starts hanging out with the gay peoples. So tell me, are gays naturally violent and that's why there's so many in prison, or do they just crave any kind of attention?
End of the story: All the gays die of AID's and Jack get's out on early parole, straight as can be, gets a girlfriend, happily ever after.
I'm not getting upset, I'm just trying to say my side - which you think is insensitive, and I think your gross.
and wow, ggzz, I didn't even see this:
"that people who classify themselves as "homophobic" obtain sexual arousal from watching homosexual pornography"
Whoever said that is the incredibly slow and raving gay. I think it's disgusting how gays try to make straight people gay with ludicrous like that. I feel physically sick even thinking about gays and avoid them at all times.

From: Camo Developer

Also, Sriro, I asked you for proof for my own knowledge. I want to see these studies for the science. I haven't seen you post anything that backs up any of your posts either. You haven't debunked anything, you had no sources.

Genetics cannot be responsible for homosexuality:
Schacter, Daniel L., Gilbert, Daniel T., and Wegner, Daniel M. (2009) "Psychology". Worth Publishers: 435.

Video games can affect how aggressive a person is:
Anderson, C.A., & Bushman, B.J. (2001). Effects of violent video games on aggressive behavior, aggressive cognition, aggressive affect, physiological arousal, and prosocial behavior: A meta-analytic review of the scientific literature. Psychological Science, 12, 353-359

Pornography increases rape rates in countries:
Zillmann, Dolf: "Effects of Prolonged Consumption of Pornography"

Thinking that foods like Chocolate are "bad" can contribute to obsession:
Andrews, Geoff (2008). The Slow Food Story: Politics and Pleasure. London: Pluto Press.

Have fun reading! Btw, I have plenty more if you want. But before I spend more time searching again for these sources that you want as proof, I'd like evidence that you aren't just ignoring them. So please, when you do read them, show us all that you have done so, so that we know you are being intellectually honest :).

From: cycrosism
How come gay people have that accent? Do they purposly do that so other people know they are gay?

In a lot of cases. But keep in mind, it's mostly teens and young 20s that do that. I know plenty of gay adult men who sound just like any other man.

From: dixienormous
And Yakman, I hope you know that the person who wrote that poem - an editor from the Gay News was convicted and given a prison sentence for that piece of blasphemous libel. I know it's probably your source of comfort and ejaculation, but please keep it to yourself.

Obviously, that is why its so famous.
Your dark-age beliefs used to have great power over our society. They used to be able to send a man to prison because of a poem he published.

Luckily, freedom has been making great strides. That blasphemy law that limited freedom of speech has now been repealed. Progress indeed.

From: Sriro
Feel free to reply to my post(s) at any time!

Suppose that we accept your idea that LGBT people have chosen their sexuality, what then? I fail to see how it gives us grounds to denying them equal and fair rights.



Oh by the way, regarding the HIV question. The demographic worldwide with the highest incident HIV is not gay men but black heterosexual women, specifically in Africa.
Why? Because of the Catholic Church's policy of banning condoms despite the AIDS epidemic. They spread unscientific lies that condoms allow sperm to pass through and that they would make HIV worse. They are ravaging the poorest and most vulnerable people on the planet.

From: ggzz
"that people who classify themselves as "homophobic" obtain sexual arousal from watching homosexual pornography"

I'm sorry are u kidding me? Thats the most biggest piece of shit bs study I have ever heard.. Not to put down your post or your opinion but the person who did that study was clearly a fashionista fag. Sorry to all the gays that get offended at me calling them gay.. wtf u want me to say?

Let me clarify that not everyone who is "homophobic" reacted that way. The study simply showed that it was more common in those men than in men who did not feel that way. I mis-wrote there. This is the official correction! lol.

Anyway, my point was to prove that even homophobes can be twisted unnaturally into homosexuals when faced with prolonged exposure; however, only if they let their animal-istic desire to screw everything and anything takeover. It's of little question that most people has impulses which can be misguided. Likewise, homosexuals do have a choice to get out of their lifestyle. Just as impulses can be misguided, they can be guided correctly, or at least held back.

From: dixienormous
It's blasphemy. And I never tried to push my ideas on you, don't get too hopeful. And am I wrong that basically the whole point of the thread by Yakman was to push his ideas on others? Get used to it? No lol. Some people still have a some decency. Yes, it does affect me, and many others. As I've pointed out, gays are the leading factor in HIV. You do not say "It's ok, let them have fun in their cesspool of orgy." You squash the bug. Find some cure, whether it's drugs or much, much worse. It bothers me because AID's have spread to normal, innocent people - and it's everyone who contributes fault. What do you know of humans? I've seen humans who embrace pain (so-called emo's), I've seen people do things like piercing and tattoo's to fit in - and you know what? It's all their faults. I am valid proof that you are not born gay. Straight up player. The scripture was proving that it offends my religion, which you asked. I shot down that silly little left hand theory, the fact that none of you knows anything about genetics, and the fact that humans ARE above animals.
Let me give you a little scenerio. A perfectly straight man goes to prison for life with some friends who were caught robbing a bank with him. He sees other gays in the shower and around the compound. Several years later, Jack notices that one of his friends, who was previously straight (for sure), starts hanging out with the gay peoples. So tell me, are gays naturally violent and that's why there's so many in prison, or do they just crave any kind of attention?
End of the story: All the gays die of AID's and Jack get's out on early parole, straight as can be, gets a girlfriend, happily ever after.
I'm not getting upset, I'm just trying to say my side - which you think is insensitive, and I think your gross.

My oh my, you are one hateful person aren't you?

What? I don't have decency because I'm defending the gays? Tell me how it affects you, personally. Don't say "well it affects me because I don't like it", that's not a valid argument. How will it affect you, on a personal level? Please, do share.

Gays are the leading factor is HIV? Um, no. There are many other contributing factors of HIV, and the gays don't even come close. Where did you hear that? Fox News?

Your whole "sad story" about AIDS spreading to innocent people is not valid. Do you even know how HIV/AIDS are transmitted? Going by your logic, being around a gay will make you have AIDS.

I said by nature, not they always will obey nature. Hell, look at America, fattest country in the world. Being obese is not in nature, at all. Yes, before winter would hit our ancestors would eat food to pack on fat. But that was so they could last through the winter with limited food. People who embrace pain, or get piercings and tattoos, that's their choice. I have nothing wrong with that.

Just because you're not gay doesn't mean that others aren't. With that logic, it's like saying "I'm tall, and a male, therefore all males are tall". The logic there is severely flawed. Again, you haven't shot down anything, please explain how you are. Nothing you post shoots down anything, just makes you look flawed.

So you know what I know, as a fact? Wow, you must be super awesome, don't stand in your way. Your "fact" is not a valid fact, it's your opinion, and that too is wrong and flawed. I never mentioned anything about animals, where did that come from? Do you just rant while typing?

Um, you do know how prison works right? There's so many "gay" people in prison because there are no females for sex. So the weaker prisoners are made bitches and raped. If you're referring to that, then again, your statement is flawed. Yes, there are true legit gays in prison, not going to deny that there are none.

You seem like you don't have a valid thought in your head, and just spew out what you think are "thoughts" and just type them out as fast as possible. Your posts are riddled with invalid logic, so I only see your posts as opinions, which is what they are.

You are getting upset, the way you're typing has changed over the last few posts. Your emotions are running high.

I never said your side was insensitive, just not valid. Oh, you think I'm gross? Please tell me why, I'm oh so curious.

From: Yakman

Suppose that we accept your idea that LGBT people have chosen their sexuality, what then? I fail to see how it gives us grounds to denying them equal and fair rights.

Every man has the right to marry a woman. Every woman has the right to marry a man. That doesn't change if the person chose to be a homosexual. That said, I don't oppose homosexual marriage, because I don't feel like meddling in the corrupt and frankly stupid political systems of the world. (I hope we can agree on that last part.) If they decide to legalize it or not doesn't concern me. My only point from the start was to underline that it is, in fact, a choice.

From: Sriro
Genetics cannot be responsible for homosexuality:
Schacter, Daniel L., Gilbert, Daniel T., and Wegner, Daniel M. (2009) "Psychology". Worth Publishers: 435.

Video games can affect how aggressive a person is:
Anderson, C.A., & Bushman, B.J. (2001). Effects of violent video games on aggressive behavior, aggressive cognition, aggressive affect, physiological arousal, and prosocial behavior: A meta-analytic review of the scientific literature. Psychological Science, 12, 353-359

Pornography increases rape rates in countries:
Zillmann, Dolf: "Effects of Prolonged Consumption of Pornography"

Thinking that foods like Chocolate are "bad" can contribute to obsession:
Andrews, Geoff (2008). The Slow Food Story: Politics and Pleasure. London: Pluto Press.

Have fun reading! Btw, I have plenty more if you want. But before I spend more time searching again for these sources that you want as proof, I'd like evidence that you aren't just ignoring them. So please, when you do read them, show us all that you have done so, so that we know you are being intellectually honest :).

Only one of those pertain to your homosexuality is not genetics point. As for the others, I've read in the past. The brain is an amazing muscle, and the mind is a powerful tool. Just because these studies may work on one group of people, doesn't mean it will on another group.

I would love to debate more, and I will later, but I'm heading home :)

It's not famous lmao - I've never heard it in my life. I guess I tried to shield myself from garbage. You call that thing a poem? I felt sick reading the first 2 lines. Then I laughed when I saw it was published in the "Gay News"…how you bring it upon yourself…and blasphemy hasn't been repealed everywhere, thankfully.
You blame it on Catholics. I had you pinned as someone pissed because you weren't accepted - glad I'm right. You know that only ~1/8 of Africans are Catholic right? And prostitutes are not Catholic lol. Face it, your kind are spread 61% of AID's in the U.S. 61%!!! That's huge for a minority.
And Camo…just stop lol. My beautiful face seems to be getting more and more magnetically attracted to the desk while reading your posts*. You talk about their feelings, truthfully I do not care how they feel. I think they're gross and dangerous animals. You fall into the "they're sensitive being's with feelings" group. I laugh at that group and call the sissies who were brainwashed full of politically correct nonsense. And btw, I don't watch TV. Advertisement's aggravate me beyond belief, and the only thing interesting was History/Animal Planet/National Geographic.
This is what I'm talking about btw*:

From: Camo Developer

I said by nature, not they always will obey nature. Hell, look at America, fattest country in the world. Being obese is not in nature, at all. Yes, before winter would hit our ancestors would eat food to pack on fat. But that was so they could last through the winter with limited food. People who embrace pain, or get piercings and tattoos, that's their choice. I have nothing wrong with that.

Human's by nature will eat as much as they can. If you knew ANYTHING about world history you would hear about the "Queen of the Nile", or how other fat women were viewed as beautiful because they were rich enough to be gluttonous.
Surely you've read The Sea Wolf by Jack London. That piece naturalism proves my point perfectly.
I'm still laughing over the bolded part - wtf did you think our ancestors did? Hibernate lmfao!? "Our ancestors" as you called them did not eat extra in before the winter to pack on fat. That has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. "Our ancestors" would store food in order to survive the winter. Not eat it to pack on fat lmfao!

To my eyes, a women is beautiful. To my face, this desk is welcoming.

From: Sriro
Every man has the right to marry a woman. Every woman has the right to marry a man.

Come on, surely even you can tell this is missing the point. Gay people want the same rights where they can marry the person they love.

From: Sriro
That doesn't change if the person chose to be a homosexual. That said, I don't oppose homosexual marriage, because I don't feel like meddling in the corrupt and frankly stupid political systems of the world. (I hope we can agree on that last part.) If they decide to legalize it or not doesn't concern me. My only point from the start was to underline that it is, in fact, a choice.

I'm not sure, you used some pretty intimidating and hurtful language about gay people a few posts back. The issue clearly means a lot to you.

From: dixienormous
It's not famous lmao - I've never heard it in my life. I guess I tried to shield myself from garbage. You call that thing a poem? I felt sick reading the first 2 lines. Then I laughed when I saw it was published in the "Gay News"…how you bring it upon yourself…and blasphemy hasn't been repealed everywhere, thankfully.
You blame it on Catholics. I had you pinned as someone pissed because you weren't accepted - glad I'm right. You know that only ~1/8 of Africans are Catholic right? And prostitutes are not Catholic lol. Face it, your kind are spread 61% of AID's in the U.S. 61%!!! That's huge for a minority.
And Camo…just stop lol. My beautiful face seems to be getting more and more magnetically attracted to the desk while reading your posts. You talk about their feelings, truthfully I do not care how they feel. I think they're gross and dangerous animals. You fall into the "they're sensitive being's with feelings" group. I laugh at that group and call the sissies who were brainwashed full of politically correct nonsense. And btw, I don't watch TV. Advertisement's aggravate me beyond belief, and the only thing interesting was History/Animal Planet/National Geographic.

I'm not even reading the rest of it, you're making yourself look like a fool with your extreme views. Whether or not you agree with homosexuality, the terms your putting forward (your kind, for instance) aren't at all necessary.

If you want to appear to be an intellectual, and make claims upon that, then at least start acting like one, rather than a 12 year old. While we're on that topic, you might want to jump off your high horse, you seem to think you are above other people, when realistically, you have no valid proof that your point is correct.

As to the AIDS fear you hold, I have a recommendation: Stop sleeping with whores.

The Catholic church says its sinful for two guys to have sex - It also says it's sinful if you have sex before marriage - but nobody cares about that?

I think alot of people do use Religion against gay people as a way of justifying their unfounded hatred.

The way I see it - live your own life, why get mad about somebody else's choices?

SandoS, you too have been brainwashed. Extreme views? To me, there's only two views. You're with them, or you're against them. I am against them. I do not care if you dislike me because of it. I have real friends (bros and girls). I tell you, you bring it upon yourself with your gay parades, gay pride, gay talk, gay clothes. The way you act like girls makes me want to puke. You are the dog with flees.
@Fire Monkey - are you even a Catholic? It aggravates me how people base a whole religion off of a buddy of there's. If you want to see real Catholics, go see those old ladies in Eastern Europe who live on their pews. I'm being extremely easy, they would tear you apart.
And I don't get mad - why does everyone use that word. I'm disgusted, and wondering what happened to a once decent society.

From: dixienormous

@Fire Monkey - are you even a Catholic? It aggravates me how people base a whole religion off of a buddy of there's. If you want to see real Catholics, go see those old ladies in Eastern Europe who live on their pews. I'm being extremely easy, they would tear you apart.
And I don't get mad - why does everyone use that word. I'm disgusted, and wondering what happened to a once decent society.

I'm from Ireland - what other religion would I be? lol

Nobody takes Catholicism seriously anymore, well not over here anyway.. the Catholic church has a ban on condoms lol..
Why are you disgusted? Some women like it up the ass - so it's the same thing really lol are you saying that's unnatural too?

Your thinking is just old-fashioned. It's 2011, anything goes.

From: Fire Monkey
The Catholic church says its sinful for two guys to have sex - It also says it's sinful if you have sex before marriage - but nobody cares about that?

I think alot of people do use Religion against gay people as a way of justifying their unfounded hatred.

The way I see it - live your own life, why get mad about somebody else's choices?

Because those choices - if made in politics - will affect your life.

From: Fire Monkey
I'm from Ireland - what other religion would I be? lol

Nobody takes Catholicism seriously anymore, well not over here anyway.. the Catholic church has a ban on condoms lol..
Why are you disgusted? Some women like it up the ass - so it's the same thing really lol are you saying that's unnatural too?

Your thinking is just old-fashioned. It's 2011, anything goes.

By Catholic I mean like a real one - not like "Yakman" who claims to be so.
By real Catholic I mean going to Church weekly, ect.
Tell me, how many gay people do you have in Ireland? In Poland there might be a few suicidal gays (from England/France usually) - but I've never seen one personally. But truthfully I'm find it hard to believe I'm hearing this from an Irish -.^.

From: dixienormous
It's not famous lmao - I've never heard it in my life. I guess I tried to shield myself from garbage. You call that thing a poem? I felt sick reading the first 2 lines. Then I laughed when I saw it was published in the "Gay News"…how you bring it upon yourself…and blasphemy hasn't been repealed everywhere, thankfully.
You blame it on Catholics. I had you pinned as someone pissed because you weren't accepted - glad I'm right. You know that only ~1/8 of Africans are Catholic right? And prostitutes are not Catholic lol. Face it, your kind are spread 61% of AID's in the U.S. 61%!!! That's huge for a minority.
And Camo…just stop lol. My beautiful face seems to be getting more and more magnetically attracted to the desk while reading your posts*. You talk about their feelings, truthfully I do not care how they feel. I think they're gross and dangerous animals. You fall into the "they're sensitive being's with feelings" group. I laugh at that group and call the sissies who were brainwashed full of politically correct nonsense. And btw, I don't watch TV. Advertisement's aggravate me beyond belief, and the only thing interesting was History/Animal Planet/National Geographic.
This is what I'm talking about btw*:

Human's by nature will eat as much as they can. If you knew ANYTHING about world history you would hear about the "Queen of the Nile", or how other fat women were viewed as beautiful because they were rich enough to be gluttonous.
Surely you've read The Sea Wolf by Jack London. That piece naturalism proves my point perfectly.
I'm still laughing over the bolded part - wtf did you think our ancestors did? Hibernate lmfao!? "Our ancestors" as you called them did not eat extra in before the winter to pack on fat. That has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. "Our ancestors" would store food in order to survive the winter. Not eat it to pack on fat lmfao!

To my eyes, a women is beautiful. To my face, this desk is welcoming.

Ok, I'm actually getting annoyed by your stupid little attitude, just drop it and have a normal debate/discussion ok?

You honestly make no sense, what so ever. You bring up topics that had nothing to do with what we are talking about, you ramble on for no reason, just have a valid thought for once?

Your kind? What are you talking about?

Your beautiful face? What? Where did this come up at? You really need to read what's being posted and think it through, not just ramble off the little puny thoughts that float across your mind.

Oh, so you don't care how they (the homosexuals) feel? Isn't it said in the Bible to love all humans? Show compassion towards one another? Am I ringing a bell? If so, aren't you technically sinning? The Bible doesn't say to hate them, just that they're an abomination (Which I strongly disagree with). They're not gross, they are a human being, much like you and I. I never said they're "sensitive beings with with feelings", I said they're human and deserve any right every other human in the US has, period. You're putting words in my mouth that I did NOT say, and that's a sign of your emotions running high and being aggravated.

Um, I do know world history, and it appears to be more than you. Yes, the fat was for the wealthiest of the wealthiest people, not average people like you and I. That is what I was comparing, you should of known that. However, you're set to tear apart everything someone has to say for no reason, so you obviously miss what is actually being said.

Yeah, they did pack on fat. You obviously don't know your history very well. They would store food, yes, but often times it wasn't enough to last through the winter. So, by packing on fat, they could use that as energy instead of not having extra fat to convert into energy. You should really do some homework. I never said anything about hibernating did I? Nope, there you go again with putting words in my mouth. You do that so you can make invalid and stupid points. And yes, our ancestors, as in the people who lived before us. Understand? Like I said, do some homework and research, you know nothing and it shows.

From: SandoS
I'm not even reading the rest of it, you're making yourself look like a fool with your extreme views. Whether or not you agree with homosexuality, the terms your putting forward (your kind, for instance) aren't at all necessary.

If you want to appear to be an intellectual, and make claims upon that, then at least start acting like one, rather than a 12 year old. While we're on that topic, you might want to jump off your high horse, you seem to think you are above other people, when realistically, you have no valid proof that your point is correct.

As to the AIDS fear you hold, I have a recommendation: Stop sleeping with whores.

I totally agree with you SS. I'm tired of these kind of people, this is a peaceful debate and yet they're trying to turn it into a rage fest. We are NOT RSBuddy, so knock it off.

From: dixienormous
SandoS, you too have been brainwashed. Extreme views? To me, there's only two views. You're with them, or you're against them. I am against them. I do not care if you dislike me because of it. I have real friends (bros and girls). I tell you, you bring it upon yourself with your gay parades, gay pride, gay talk, gay clothes. The way you act like girls makes me want to puke. You are the dog with flees.
@Fire Monkey - are you even a Catholic? It aggravates me how people base a whole religion off of a buddy of there's. If you want to see real Catholics, go see those old ladies in Eastern Europe who live on their pews. I'm being extremely easy, they would tear you apart.
And I don't get mad - why does everyone use that word. I'm disgusted, and wondering what happened to a once decent society.

Yes, I would agree that your views are extreme, and we are not brainwashed. It's called being open minded, you should try it sometime. Instead of immediately casting something off, let it roll around in your head and think about it in every angle. Then, and only then, if you still don't like it you can cast it off.

Why does there have to be two sides? Why are you against them? They have done nothing to harm you, or anyone that you hold close and love. This hostility really does amaze me.

Now we're talking about friends? When did this come into play? We all have friends, of both sexes, your point?

What exactly are we bringing upon ourselves? I would really like to know, yet you never answer any of my questions in a clear way. Could you at least try, for once?

You're stereotyping the homosexuals, not all of them act like girls. Those few that do, are annoying. It's the real gays that you wouldn't even know were gay unless they told you. I like the gay parades and alike, at least they can do that and it makes them happy. All they want is equal rights, which is what they need.

Are you even a Catholic? I see no signs of it based on your posts. What makes you say he's basing it off of a friend? There you go again, coming up with fake thoughts and words to put into other peoples mouths. Are you not a real Catholic then? Since you're not an old lady in Eastern Europe, you can't be a real Catholic, based on your logic.

Yes, you're mad. You're attacking for no reason. You know what happened to this society? Politics, media, and money greed. If you want to be disgusted at anything, be disgusted at those things. That is the real reason why our society has fallen.

From: dixienormous
By Catholic I mean like a real one - not like "Yakman" who claims to be so.
By real Catholic I mean going to Church weekly, ect.
Tell me, how many gay people do you have in Ireland? In Poland there might be a few suicidal gays (from England/France usually) - but I've never seen one personally. But truthfully I'm find it hard to believe I'm hearing this from an Irish -.^.

Stop attacking and calm down, stop being so damn hostile. It's not needed.

So you've never seen a gay person in person? Wow. That explains everything you post. You have no experience of being around them. All of your "hate" is coming from hearsay and repeated from the brainwashing religion. Wow, just absolutely wow.

Oh, and please read the entire post. Thanks.

I'll try to "appear" more calm. I did indeed read your whole post, but I didn't get a lot of the commentary about seemingly random stuff. I do have experience actually. My first period class has a homo who dresses up like Lady Gaga every day, and does every stereotypical thing mentioned so far. He was the one who talked about Paul being gay, and he is truthfully (and this is agreed by girls and guys), to be a total jerk. In my 3rd Period class I have two gays (different ones). The younger (freshman) one puts his hands on his hips, lissps, has the most annoying voice I've probably ever heard, and sings to every song on the radio (elective graphics class - we have the radio playing), and his voice is terrible - but he thinks it's funny - and I want to smash his face in because I can't listen to music in piece/do my work. The other gay person in that class goes to the tanning bed, tells everybody in the class how they're not Christian (and how he is), wears unzipped jackets (with no shirt underneath), tight pants, ect. He has long hair and also talks in a lissp and thinks he's "whats up." I also have seen several gays that I've never met, but they're extremely loud, obnoxious, do the most gay poses, lisp, and basically make me want to punch their faces in. So, there's my experience. I also think that what they do is unnatural and disgusting. Seeing two dudes kiss makes me want to puke, and talking about anything sexually past that might make me puke on the keyboard. It's different if a guy does it to a girl…so different you can't even compare. Face it, it's unnatural. A man is biologically designed to coexist/habit with a female. Newfangled Catholicism teaches you that gay's are bad (unnatural), but it is wrong to hate them - so yes, I am a sinner. The only person who is not a sinner was Jesus.
And btw, I came from Poland to the U.S. When I talk about the old ladies, I am saying that they have more room to talk then me because they're more pious, and imo, come from a better age. I disagree with you on this: This topic is both politics, media, and money. Gay rights are quite rampant in the U.S., and it's spreading worldwide. The media loves this, and they for the most part, campaign for the gays. And money is in everything…
Was that better?
E: I forgot to mention that I've never once in my life met a gay who "doesn't act gay". The kid who goes to the tanning bed, I remember hearing him talk once to some other kids when I was nearby. He told the kids that he "doesn't really like anybody in the school because they're not old enough, and that he mostly goes out with college kids." When some kid jokingly asked if he liked to give it up the ass, he replied "No, I only receive. It feels so good."<Nearly puked. He then later commented on how "I didn't chose to be gay, it just started in high school when I started thinking this one dude was hot. And there's proof that a swiss study says that gays have (forgot - some kind of gene deficiency) that makes me like I am."

Wait… So you are basing your entire prejudice ways on what you have seen at school? Are you seriously saying that all of your opinions are generated from stereotypical homosexuals and from what you have seen at school? Where people purposely try to fit in or annoy others?

So if I, being bisexual, would speak with a stereotypical lisp, you would want to punch my face in because of it?

From: dixienormous
I'll try to "appear" more calm. I did indeed read your whole post, but I didn't get a lot of the commentary about seemingly random stuff. I do have experience actually. My first period class has a homo who dresses up like Lady Gaga every day, and does every stereotypical thing mentioned so far. He was the one who talked about Paul being gay, and he is truthfully (and this is agreed by girls and guys), to be a total jerk. In my 3rd Period class I have two gays (different ones). The younger (freshman) one puts his hands on his hips, lissps, has the most annoying voice I've probably ever heard, and sings to every song on the radio (elective graphics class - we have the radio playing), and his voice is terrible - but he thinks it's funny - and I want to smash his face in because I can't listen to music in piece/do my work. The other gay person in that class goes to the tanning bed, tells everybody in the class how they're not Christian (and how he is), wears unzipped jackets (with no shirt underneath), tight pants, ect. He has long hair and also talks in a lissp and thinks he's "whats up." I also have seen several gays that I've never met, but they're extremely loud, obnoxious, do the most gay poses, lisp, and basically make me want to punch their faces in. So, there's my experience. I also think that what they do is unnatural and disgusting. Seeing two dudes kiss makes me want to puke, and talking about anything sexually past that might make me puke on the keyboard. It's different if a guy does it to a girl…so different you can't even compare. Face it, it's unnatural. A man is biologically designed to coexist/habit with a female. Newfangled Catholicism teaches you that gay's are bad (unnatural), but it is wrong to hate them - so yes, I am a sinner. The only person who is not a sinner was Jesus.
And btw, I came from Poland to the U.S. When I talk about the old ladies, I am saying that they have more room to talk then me because they're more pious, and imo, come from a better age. I disagree with you on this: This topic is both politics, media, and money. Gay rights are quite rampant in the U.S., and it's spreading worldwide. The media loves this, and they for the most part, campaign for the gays. And money is in everything…
Was that better?

Schools and media. What, did you want me to have - first hand bed experience lol? I've known around ~10 gay kids in my life and none of them were these great normal people you've talking about. What more experience can you ask from a straight dude (being totally serious)?
It's not only the lisp. Some people have the lisp for medical reasons. It's the clothes, the act, the self-made lisp, their annoying personality, the fact that all of them (that I've met) are dumb as rocks, and that they're now that I think about it, the predators.
And it's not stereotypical anymore. Media has gotten to the point where being gay is at least as popular as being straight.
What argument do you have against it being unnatural? Please do not say genetics, that (ignorance) aggravates me because you are not geneticists…

So what if your son, some day in the future if you so choose to have children turns out to be a homosexual when he turns around your current age? What if he was the most intelligent and loving boy in the world? What if his personality was not annoying and he had no self-forced lisp?
Would you hate him?

What I'm trying to make a point out of here is that you are generalizing every single homosexual in the world in to one big stereotypical pot of idiocy. You can not do that in life as everyone is different.
That would be like me throwing you and every other human that dislikes homosexuals in to the "I LOVE JESUS, OH MY GOD!" pot and call you mentally insane. But I do not as you are a unique person with qualities that others do not have.

Homosexual people are humans too with different qualities. Before you really make the decision to hate homosexual people or "Want to punch their face in", actually look at people who are mature and are homosexual. You have your bad apples and your good apples.

And no, even if you were being facetious, I am not asking you to get first hand bed experience in the subject. I am asking you why do you choose to hate homosexuals when you have only met the obnoxious ones? There are some great homosexuals out there who are intelligent and kind. They do not have a lisp and you would think they are straight.

It would probably break my heart, but I would try as hard as possible to fix him, and then if it didn't work, disown him at legal age (yes, I know that sounds horrible, but read further). Hate him - no. I would hate myself for failing him so badly. I don't think I would ever forgive myself for that kind of failure, because to me, it is all in the upbringing. Dude, it's statistics so far: ~10/10 gays I've known have been EXACTLY like their stereotypes. I'm confused about your point, I do love Jesus? It would be offensive if someone said otherwise, but it wouldn't matter because they are the minority. You don't understand. I define homosexuals from what I've seen of them. All my experience is real, first hand experience. I don't know about you, but 10 gays is a lot for me! I'm not trying to be mean, but if I have bad apples, I throw them into the compost and hope something good comes out of it. To me, the good apple is the straight person, the bad apple is the gay person. I'm just wondering what is this mythical creature you keep talking about? However, let's say that there are. Do you not think that it is unnatural and wrong? If you want to use science, then anatomically the male is made for the female and vise-versa. The male is not made for the male. This race would die out. It's all logics and science.

You keep throwing science around as if you are terrified of it. I have not said one thing at all about science in the posts in this thread and you keep trying to run from it or use it as a "Way out for idiots". Why is this?

My point is that you throw many homosexuals in to one pot and you stir it together to make a mental image of a flamboyant homosexual. When this is, as I have said before, wrong. There are many more homosexuals than 10 in the world.

I mentioned the Jesus loving thing as an example to show you that I do not throw you in to the "I LOVE JESUS" pot. I put you in to your own pot because you are unique as all humans are. Not every homosexual is going to stuff their homosexuality down your throat.

I truthfully have no clue what your talking about, and I don't think you do either. Let me asking you simply: Do you think being gay (sex with men and all) is natural.
Please answer now since I've asked you three times. I have no problem being in the "I love Jesus" pot, so why don't you put me in that pot and I'll put you in the pot with the flamboyant homosexuals (a joke). Being unique is no excuse. I would prefer to think that men all all alike in that they like women.
Btw, why do you have an ad in your signature? Maybe you should refresh that rule page.
And please answer both the questions instead of trying to explain yourself several times over and over again.

What ad? Here's what I see: http://i.imgur.com/EJPCh.png

I have no opinion on true homosexuality as I, to be honest, love everyone equally. Despite their choices, flaws and other various little things like that, I love them for who they are and I accept them.

I do not put you in the "I love Jesus" pot as I think you and every other human being is unique. Humans should not be grouped together just because of your or anyone else prejudice ways. I have explained this to you twice already.

From: dixienormous
Schools and media. What, did you want me to have - first hand bed experience lol? I've known around ~10 gay kids in my life and none of them were these great normal people you've talking about. What more experience can you ask from a straight dude (being totally serious)?
It's not only the lisp. Some people have the lisp for medical reasons. It's the clothes, the act, the self-made lisp, their annoying personality, the fact that all of them (that I've met) are dumb as rocks, and that they're now that I think about it, the predators.
And it's not stereotypical anymore. Media has gotten to the point where being gay is at least as popular as being straight.
What argument do you have against it being unnatural? Please do not say genetics, that (ignorance) aggravates me because you are not geneticists…

I find it weird how people judge someone's sexuality by the way they dress and act. You're criticizing their personality, not sexuality. Over the years I have made an observation that straight people, in fact, can wear clothes and act in a way you find irritating. Is that because they are straight? And what does it matter to you if some gay guy you don't even know wears clothes that are "stereotypical"? I personally have a much bigger irritation towards religious people than gays.

What is unnatural? Who decides what's unnatural and natural? The bible? Religion? Are you serious? If there's a God, and if this God says homosexuality is a sin, why would this God even create gays in the first place? To test their faith? Why would a loving God create a human and make him gay if it's a sin, and put him through a lifetime of mental torture, as he now can't express his sexuality without going to hell?

The fact is there is no natural and unnatural, how can nature create something unnatural? Homosexuality can be found in animals all over the board. Did these animals choose to be gay? It's most likely nature's way to try and limit overpopulation. Nothing "unnatural" about it.

Edit:

From: RISK
What ad? Here's what I see: http://i.imgur.com/EJPCh.png

He thinks the random ad that sometimes appears under posts is your sig. It is not.

I asked whether you thought it was natural, or unnatural - not some B.S. answer that just breezes over the topic. You have two choices, choose one and explain.

From: Mr. Bottomtooth

What is unnatural? Who decides what's unnatural and natural? The bible? Religion? Are you serious? If there's a God, and if this God says homosexuality is a sin, why would this God even create gays in the first place? To test their faith? Why would a loving God create a human and make him gay if it's a sin, and put him through a lifetime of mental torture, as he now can't express his sexuality without going to hell?

The fact is there is no natural and unnatural, how can nature create something unnatural? Homosexuality can be found in animals all over the board. Did these animals choose to be gay? It's most likely nature's way to try and limit overpopulation. Nothing "unnatural" about it.

God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve
-God decides, the Bible also decides (Leviathan), Religion decides, yes I'm serious. Not if, there is, otherwise you wouldn't be here yapping nonsense. He didn't create gays, just like he didn't create criminals or atheists. People created themselves (with the Devil's influence). God created man and women and let them mold who they are. All of life is a test of faith.
Bro, you better have a good excuse; like you just got hit by a train, because the load of nonsense your talking is incredible.
Facepalm x20
Animals are not humans. Humans have both a soul (which animals don't have), and are by far the most intelligent creature on Earth. Animals live by instinct. This "homosexuality in animals" as you call it is just a power-trip.
Dogs try to hump other dogs to show that they're the Alpha male, not because they're gay. And let's say a dog was gay. You cannot compare an animal to a human.
To once again sum it up: God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve
Goodnight, ladies and gentleladies, I'm going to bed.

From: dixienormous
God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve
-God decides, the Bible also decides (Leviathan), Religion decides, yes I'm serious. Not if, there is, otherwise you wouldn't be here yapping nonsense. He didn't create gays, just like he didn't create criminals or atheists. People created themselves (with the Devil's influence). God created man and women and let them mold who they are. All of life is a test of faith.
Bro, you better have a good excuse; like you just got hit by a train, because the load of nonsense your talking is incredible.
Facepalm x20
Animals are not humans. Humans have both a soul (which animals don't have), and are by far the most intelligent creature on Earth. Animals live by instinct. This "homosexuality in animals" as you call it is just a power-trip.
Dogs try to hump other dogs to show that they're the Alpha male, not because they're gay. And let's say a dog was gay. You cannot compare an animal to a human.
To once again sum it up: God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve
Goodnight, ladies and gentleladies, I'm going to bed.

Ah… The good old "God" card. It's hard to say anything against that. If only I had a card like that… A one liner to win all conversations… No wait. I do.

God created man? Prove it.
_____________________

What separates humans from other animals is self-awareness. And even that's not 100% true. Some animals, such as dolphins, have a sense of self-awereness. Meaning they know what they see when they look into a mirror. This is what religion calls a soul.

What do you mean by "power-trip"? Homosexual animals actually form relationships with the same sex, show affection and care and have sex. I'm not talking about a horny dog humping a pillow. Homosexuality in animals has been observed in almost 1500 species. And why can't I compare the homosexuality of animals with humans? Because it's a different species? The basics are still the same: sexual affection within the same sex.

Also, I facepalmed only 6 times while writing this. You facepalmed 20 times. I guess homosexuality is losing this debate. :(

PS. I'm agnostic.

From: dixienormous
Btw, why do you have an ad in your signature? Maybe you should refresh that rule page.

Props for trying to get him in trouble to win an argument. I forgot we were all six years old.

oh wait..

Anyway, there's an ad every five posts, I think. Hosting/domain names cost money, and that money needs to come from somewhere. Ads are one way to get a little more (and at least they're not as extreme as other sites..).

But this is offtopic, so uhh.. gay marriage is fine by me. I don't think people choose to be gay, nor are they born gay. I think it's caused by something in a child's upbringing which makes them favor the same sex for one reason or another. I don't know for sure though. But I do know plenty of gay guys and girls that hate their fathers' quite severely. I don't see that as a coincidence.

Also I think it's entirely stupid to base ideas on anything other than evidence, and I don't much care for people who do that.

From: dixienormous
I forgot to mention that I've never once in my life met a gay who "doesn't act gay"

Well you've only been around ones in HS, which is the worst. I have several friends who are gay, and unless they told you, you wouldn't even know. Same goes for past and present coworkers.

Tim Cook, Apples new CEO, is gay. He's the most powerful homosexual alive, but you wouldn't have known unless someone told you.

RISK is dead on the money, HS homosexuals are the worst because it's HS. People over work to fit in, and it comes off as annoying.

96% of all statistics are made up, on the spot.

Here's a twist, we've been talking about man on man homosexuality. What about girl on girl? Do you hate them as well? Do you hate watching them kiss?

Who is God? What is God? Where is God? Who made God the controller of the universe? Who made him so powerful? Answer these questions with proof, sources and etc, and the Bible doesn't count.

Your little God "power trip", wasn't a train. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Every time you post, I can't help but type with one hand because I'm facepalming the entire time while reading it.

You know what animal shows the most homosexual behavior? I'll give you a hint, they're the closest species to us. Figure it out yet? Oh, it's chimpanzees! The more you post, the more it comes off as if you just funnel in Fox News/brainwash religion and spit it right back out, without even a thought.

I lol'd at your post Mr. Bottomtooth, great one liner.

That was responses for the last posts, too tired to quote each one. I answered in order.

Camo I thought you were a Christian lol.

I was raised in the Christian belief, but as I've grown up, I've started questioning a lot of things about it. Often times it means I get death stares from the over Christian family members.

From: Camo Developer
I was raised in the Christian belief, but as I've grown up, I've started questioning a lot of things about it. Often times it means I get death stares from the over Christian family members.

Well hopefully you will see the light. I mean staying close to god helped me a lot personally.

Well back on topic. Okay so America is supposed to be a country where everyone is free. You can do whatever you please and no can tell you what to do and not do. But America also claims its a Christian country.

So how is this supposed to work out? Obviously being gay is not allowed in the world of Christianity. But then you claim that your Christian based country is also free. You have the freedom to do what you like. So why do people go after gays, saying it violates Christianity. When were supposed to be living in America which is a free country.

In Iran, and Saudia Arabia, being gay is prohibited. You can't really do anything because they are Islamic governments with firm laws. So if your gay and your in those countries, then it's recommended to get out.

America needs to get it's priorities straight. You can't create BS for gays when you claim your country is a free country.

From: Camo Developer
I was raised in the Christian belief, but as I've grown up, I've started questioning a lot of things about it. Often times it means I get death stares from the over Christian family members.

Totally can sympathize with you here. My little branch of our family has no belief in god but the rest of my family, jesus christ, they are insanely religious.

Also to those who will bag for the not being religious, it is absurd I think to have to look up to a deity for guidance. A question which has still to this day stumped religion is 'Who created god?', now I know the common answer is, 'Uh ohh, he was just uhh there…' but that is a cop out….


Anyways on to the topic, I tend to treat sexuality as I treat my view on religious freedom, I really do not mind it at all, but when it is pushed on me I cannot tolerate it. That being said I do believe gay's deserve equal rights, they are in fact people still, and sexuality is formed genetically, so unlike common belief from many sexuality is not a 'choice'.

From: kingarabian
America is supposed to be a country where everyone is free. You can do whatever you please and no can tell you what to do and not do. But America also claims its a Christian country.

Majority of people are Christians != A Christian country.

From: Zyt3x
Majority of people are Christians != A Christian country.

True, and also, this country was founded off British dissidents who were Christian.

From: Zyt3x
Majority of people are Christians != A Christian country.

Im pretty sure it says on American money "In God We Trust"

First, let's think in a logic perspective here before bringing religion into play. To clarify something I will come out and say this now, I am trans-gendered. If you look at heterosexuals and homosexuals you can see they are both have the same concept–it's just a matter of having the power to accept them for who they are.

Similarities:

Heterosexuals: Preferred interest in the opposite sex–the majority find it uncomfortable to be around homosexuals. They also are only interested in female vagina's.

Homosexuals: Preferred interest in the same sex–the majority find it uncomfortable to be around heterosexuals. They are also only interested in male penis's.

Believe it or not both have the majority group of finding the other sexual orientation to be rather uncomfortable to be around. We are all the same on the inside though if you have a logical outlook on this debate. Both preferences have feelings which you must remember that if you have any common sense. Rather somebody is homosexual or heterosexual you should accept them for who they are apposed from downing on their sexual orientation.

Heterosexuals have feelings just like homosexuals do. We are all people on this planet Earth and we all need to learn to accept others for who they are–not to down them because they have a different sexual orientation than you. Rather you are heterosexual or homosexual, if you are against the other preference then you are clearly closed-minded and you need to open your eyes to the real world. I'll go more in depth later.

Regarding religion, I don't like bringing religion into the picture but I see a lot of users bringing "Christianity" into the picture saying homosexuality is wrong. Let me tell you one thing, when I was two years old I preferred to wear little girls clothing than male clothing. This is mainly caused by genetics–I'd take some insight into it since it's rather interesting how genetics can effect the psychological thinking pattern of your child/future child.

Seeing that this is the case for any sexuality–you do not 'choose' to be heterosexual or homosexual, it's your personal preference. You can ask yourself rather you are heterosexual or homosexual, when did you discover you were the sexual orientation you are right now? If someone is born that way then why judge how someone is born? You might as well bring down handy-cap people that are physically disabled in that case; It's the same concept!

If 'God' made Adam, Eve, and all man-kind then he might as well be classified as bisexual. This may sound like a joke to some people here though I make a logical point. Sexual orientation is not a choice, you were born that way and it's something you cannot help. You cannot help if you are attracted to the same sex or the opposite sex–it's just who you are! I'm not saying 'God' exists or not–I'm simply implying that if he does exist then he must have created homosexuals as well as heterosexuals.

I have multiple outlooks on afterlife, so consider me agnostic. I'm not sure what I believe in nor am I going to bring down a religion.

In conclusion, I make quite a few logical statements within this post and I hope to hear some feedback. I'm an open-minded person and I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Please feel free to state your opinions on what I just said and let's see if we can't come to a conclusion to this debate.

Edit: I made this rather short, I will go into more detail if I am asked questions.

From: cycrosism
Im pretty sure it says on American money "In God We Trust"

And what's your point?

From: Zyt3x
And what's your point?

That because of something that was established years ago, it makes the US Christians.

From: Camo Developer
That because of something that was established years ago, it makes the US Christians.

No, it doesn't. The US was founded as a secular country, and it still is. "In God We Trust" wasn't added to currency until 1956, and it was due to the second red scare and general McCarthyism around that time. It still exists today due to some dumb supreme court rulings saying that "God" refers to any sort of higher being (or whatever you choose to worship), and not just the Christian god.

From: Harry
No, it doesn't. The US was founded as a secular country, and it still is. "In God We Trust" wasn't added to currency until 1956, and it was due to the second red scare and general McCarthyism around that time. It still exists today due to some dumb supreme court rulings saying that "God" refers to any sort of higher being (or whatever you choose to worship), and not just the Christian god.

I know, but when it was decided to be added, the "God" meant the Christian God. When people see that phrase, their minds jump to the Christian God.

From: kingarabian
Well hopefully you will see the light. I mean staying close to god helped me a lot personally.

Well back on topic. Okay so America is supposed to be a country where everyone is free. You can do whatever you please and no can tell you what to do and not do. But America also claims its a Christian country.

So how is this supposed to work out? Obviously being gay is not allowed in the world of Christianity. But then you claim that your Christian based country is also free. You have the freedom to do what you like. So why do people go after gays, saying it violates Christianity. When were supposed to be living in America which is a free country.

In Iran, and Saudia Arabia, being gay is prohibited. You can't really do anything because they are Islamic governments with firm laws. So if your gay and your in those countries, then it's recommended to get out.

America needs to get it's priorities straight. You can't create BS for gays when you claim your country is a free country.

I don't know how I missed this post, it's very good. I really don't know how to best answer those points. Personally, I view America as a free country and not a Christian country. That's just my view though, and I think that is a good way to view it and make some sense out of it.

@Hockey, I couldn't agree more.

From: kingarabian
Well hopefully you will see the light. I mean staying close to god helped me a lot personally.

I think he has already seen the light. :f:

From: Wizzup?
I think he has already seen the light. :f:

I see what you did there!

From: Camo Developer
I know you're referencing your "boy wants to marry his grandma" here, and other things as well. However, that's a matter of what's morally right.

Ah this "supreme morality" that somehow seems to be different between various groups of people.

Would you say marrying your cousin is "morally right"? Not long ago it was considered pretty a pretty common practice even in first world countries.

Also, who am i to impose my morality on other people?

Why? What do you suppose? A "New Marriage" for the homosexuals?

Pretty much. But actually now that i think of it i have more of a problem with same-sex couples engaging in the actual ritual of marriage than their actual legal status afterwards which i could care less about.

So i don't see much of a problem with just letting same sex couples have the same "married" legal status and all the rights with it. On the other hand, now that we're talking about it, i don't personally see a reason why we shouldn't let an 18 year old boy and his grandma/pa experience that same legal status as well.

The only thing that holds me back from being completely in favor of same-sex marriage is that it would mean the modification of age-old traditions and rituals because some small minority suddenly wants to be a part of it as well. But there isn't really any law defending rituals, so people can really do whatever they want.

I really don't know. Same-sex marriage will be legalized everywhere eventually, no question about it. And i agree that same-sex couples should have all the rights regular couples do. I'm just not sure how i want it to be done.

From: Camo Developer
I was raised in the Christian belief, but as I've grown up, I've started questioning a lot of things about it. Often times it means I get death stares from the over Christian family members.

Same thing here as well. I was raised in a Christian family, my parents and sisters are not hardcore believers, but I still get some judging looks if I speak my mind about a higher power. I try not to be disrespectful of anyone's personal beliefs, but simply bring out my own doubts about a God. They seem to think I am an atheist, and even if I try to fully explain agnosticism to them they don't fully see the difference.

The only reason I am still part of the church is because my girlfriend wants a church wedding (some day in the future). I'm not especially proud about abusing my "Christian" rights as I'm not a believer just to get a wedding for my possible future wife, but I don't really know what else to do.

EDIT: Just realised, sorry for the offtopic. These kind of talks often get sidetracked towards religion, you know.

From: Camo Developer
Only one of those pertain to your homosexuality is not genetics point. As for the others, I've read in the past. The brain is an amazing muscle, and the mind is a powerful tool. Just because these studies may work on one group of people, doesn't mean it will on another group.

I would love to debate more, and I will later, but I'm heading home :)

The secret to not being affected by things that get to us on a psychological level is to acknowledge that they affect us. At that point, you can do something about it. People who claim otherwise are lying to themselves. When you have read the reference about genetics and homosexuality, I can provide further ones – you know, as GLADoS would say: for science.

But when you decide you want to try and prove homosexuality is genetic, feel free to start using sources of your own! Until then, I'm sure you won't be claiming that homosexuality is something you are born with, because that statement has not been ratified in this thread yet. What has been ratified is that it is not genetic.

From: dixienormous
I feel physically sick even thinking about gays and avoid them at all times.

From: dixienormous

You talk about their feelings, truthfully I do not care how they feel. I think they're gross and dangerous animals. You fall into the "they're sensitive being's with feelings" group. I laugh at that group and call the sissies who were brainwashed full of politically correct nonsense.

I understand how you feel, but you must make an effort to control your emotions when you talk about it.

1 Peter 2:17 - "Show proper respect to everyone" NIV
—————–"Show respect for all people." ETRV
—————–"Honor all people." NKJV
*Italics mine

And:
Colossians 4:6 - "Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone." NIV
"Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one." NKJV

Before you post a reply, ask yourself: Am I showing the honor and respect that a true Christian is to show at all times? Is my speech and conduct honoring God, or do I come off as hateful?

It is nearly impossible to reply without offending someone, and even in my own posts I feel I might be going too far. That said, and acknowledging no one is perfect, you must at least make an effort if you are truly a Christian.

From: Yakman
Come on, surely even you can tell this is missing the point. Gay people want the same rights where they can marry the person they love.

I'm not sure, you used some pretty intimidating and hurtful language about gay people a few posts back. The issue clearly means a lot to you.

I'm very sorry you feel that way. It was not my intention to be intimidating or hurtful. Homosexuality is a topic I've dealt with extensively in the past, and I know numerous homosexuals, which means I go over it rather frequently. I'm wholly convinced that it is not a rewarding lifestyle, and one which people can choose to avoid, but it's only this latter part that I've tried to present on this thread. That said, I never intended to make it seem like I would actively try and stop gay marriage rights in the United States. I don't feel the United States government, or any country, is qualified for enforcing personal moral beliefs – specially considering that these hypocritical entities are lacking in many areas.

For example, in my eyes, a marriage of two fornicators is also of no worth. If the government were to enforce the moral standards of the Christian God, no politician would be able to take the scrutiny. Afterall, even if they were perfect in every other way, biblically, the will to govern others is Satanic in nature – he was the first to want to establish his will on others even though that did not belong to him. People who claim to be Christian and yet choose to enforce their beliefs through the political system instead of waiting on God are NOT Christian. As Jesus said: "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." And again, in John 17:16, Jesus spoke about his disciples saying: "They are not of the world, even as I am not of it." How can you not be a part of the world and yet try and manipulate it's political systems?

And what Jesus told political and religious leaders of his time still applies to most of them today: "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father&#8217;s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." - John 8:44

So you see, I have no interest in meddling in political affairs; like whether homosexuals have the right to marry or not legally. However, I still feel that the point I tried to present – that of homosexuality being a choice – was exposed to more or less the best of my ability.

From: Mr. Bottomtooth

What is unnatural? Who decides what's unnatural and natural? The bible? Religion? Are you serious? If there's a God, and if this God says homosexuality is a sin, why would this God even create gays in the first place? To test their faith? Why would a loving God create a human and make him gay if it's a sin, and put him through a lifetime of mental torture, as he now can't express his sexuality without going to hell?

The fact is there is no natural and unnatural, how can nature create something unnatural? Homosexuality can be found in animals all over the board. Did these animals choose to be gay? It's most likely nature's way to try and limit overpopulation. Nothing "unnatural" about it.

Men and Women complement each other naturally. Homosexual men or women do not. The fact that, for example, lesbians have to use tools to reach orgasm, shows that it is unnatural. If it were natural, nothing alien would have to be introduced.

As for God creating homosexuals, you are taking it as a given that homosexuals are born that way. This is fallacious as no evidence has been submitted on this thread that proves conclusively that homosexuals are born that way. Once that has been done, you may re-establish your question.

To simplify our discussion, let me define natural with dictionary.com:
"existing in or formed by nature"
As opposed to artificial, which is the antonym of natural:
"made by human skill, produced by humans"

While homosexual acts have been found in animals, this does little more than prove that sexual drives are natural. There are dogs that prefer to hump toys – it's based on instinct. Some animals eat their weak children – also based on instinct.

So tell me, would eating children be considered unnatural for humans? Yes. Do you know why? Because unlike animals, humans are not driven by instinct. We have the ability to reason unlike any other creature on earth. This allows us to differentiate between right and wrong, to think, and plan. We have the ability to reason love unlike animals which are instinct based.

An animal humps a toy and feels pleasure. They are rewarded with pleasure for their act. They are conditioned to like it. A human, however, can reason: "This is my child – weak or not, and it is my duty to protect them." And also: "A woman and another woman cannot, without artificial methods, give each other pleasure. It must be unnatural."

Instinct is natural. That's why homosexuality in animals means nothing. They cannot "choose" because they cannot reason like us. Basic logic is natural in humans. That's why ignoring it and engaging in homosexual acts is unnatural for humans. Whether it be with women or men. Likewise, adultery, while it happens in the animal kingdom, is not natural for humans. We should know better.



Acting like an animal is unnatural for humans.

But people are free to act however they want. I won't stop them.

From: Littma

Regarding religion, I don't like bringing religion into the picture but I see a lot of users bringing "Christianity" into the picture saying homosexuality is wrong. Let me tell you one thing, when I was two years old I preferred to wear little girls clothing than male clothing. This is mainly caused by genetics–I'd take some insight into it since it's rather interesting how genetics can effect the psychological thinking pattern of your child/future child.

Seeing that this is the case for any sexuality–you do not 'choose' to be heterosexual or homosexual, it's your personal preference. You can ask yourself rather you are heterosexual or homosexual, when did you discover you were the sexual orientation you are right now? If someone is born that way then why judge how someone is born? You might as well bring down handy-cap people that are physically disabled in that case; It's the same concept!

Please refer to my previous posts for evidence that Homosexuality is not genetic. For a shortcut, click on this excerpt of one of them. It includes several reasons which you may find interesting.

From: Sriro
Grief seeds, your statement that there is evidence that people are born gay or straight is incorrect.

The above should more or less cover all my grounds. If anyone feels I missed something, feel free to tell me. However, I do intend on closing off the discussion with some people soon with some closing statements. That way I don't have to make such enormous posts, and can focus on the newcomers to the thread.

The above was not checked for grammar, spelling, or coherency. Forgive my mistakes.
This post is enormous, because I refused to split it into multiple posts. Why?
BECAUSE DOUBLE POSTERS DESERVE TO DIE!!!!!!! Just kidding, heh.

Thanks Sriro for the post, it was very clear and respectful. And I see your point of view.

The problem with subjects where religion often comes into picture is that the debators base their arguements on different things. Christians, in this case, have a mindset that there are some ultimate truths in this world that you live by. Such as that God created Earth and man, and that affection between man and woman is the way it should be. The natural way.

Agnostics and atheists base their arguements on the mindset that there is no ultimate truth. No meaning. We are just animals created and formed by evolution. Therefore the only right and wrong, natural and unnatural, is what man decides. Not God, or some other higher power.

So it's very hard to come into an agreement on what is natural, as I personally do not believe there is such a term to begin with. I don't claim to know who or what created everything, is homosexuality a decision or genetic, or what is natural or unnatural. I base my opinions on facts (that, at the time, seem true) and to the truth that there is a lot in this universe that is, and probably always will be, unknown. The only difference between Christianity (religion) and agnostism is that I don't fill the blank spots (the unkown) with religion, and then treat my beliefs as the truth.

I apologize if the text is hard to follow, my mind was rambling while writing this, and it's getting harder and harder to express myself in a foreign language in a conversation that is getting more and more philosophical. :redface:

Throwing this out there.. why is the male "G-spot" inside the anus?

:stirthepot:

From: Nava2
Throwing this out there.. why is the male "G-spot" inside the anus?

:stirthepot:

"its your prostate moron, and its not supposed to be stimulated like that"
that's what google told me when i asked it your question. :P

From: Wizzup?
I think he has already seen the light. :f:

:rolleyes: The dark light :f:.

Well, lot's of people disagree with me, and the sad thing is that I think most of the people who agree with me and to scared to go against this community/America.
Just to point out, America is the biggest hypocrisy I've ever heard of in my life.
This "Land of the Free", ect, ect is one big illusion. How you treat immigrants who come from other countries (like Mexicans) is revolting. I hear them called cockroaches, parasites, ect - yet they have almost no rights and are getting less daily. It's sick.

Agnostics tend to be people who campaign other minority's rights, but that's just because you are a minority. If you fools (face it, you are that(saying this to people talking about Godly proof only!)), want to ask questions about who created God, then I want to know who created you, who created the tiny little bacterium that crawled out of the sea and over 4 billion years ago managed to evolve into a human (so called theory of evolution). Who created that atoms that make up that baterium, down to the last neutrino? Let me guess - it was all there! Like a magic show! I think people are agnostics because they hate the fact that someone is more powerful then them - truly resent it. Christianity makes sense. Maybe somethings don't (but you believe is what matters), but we know there was a miraculous man - named Jesus, who died for our sins. Don't ask me questions that only God can answer - I don't pretend to be him (by being atheists you make yourself God's I'm sure).
Sriro.
As you have pointed out, I am a sinner. I don't deny that at all (without any resistance at all) - for there has been only one man who has not sinned.

To all gays and there lovers, face it, is is unnatural and sick. You have brought it upon yourselves. It is wrong for a dude to bang another dude NO MATTER what way you look at it. Males goes with females.
"'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Leviticus 20:13
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders."
1 Corinthians 6:9
As for lesbians, they are not nearly as offensive, but they are still wrong in my opinion.
If you can find something against lesbians in the Bible, please show me.

As for RISK, you never answered my question, but let me use your analogies with the apples.
If you people didn't know, you can have a barrel of healthy apples, but if you have even one bad apple, it will cause the rest of the apples in the barrel to rot (over time). This is just like homosexuality. One apple started rotting, then another, then another, and soon the whole barrel is starting to rot (except for a few). To survive, society has to throw out these bad apples - not to eat them like they were normal apples.
How we are rusting…

From: dixienormous
I want to know who created you, who created the tiny little bacterium that crawled out of the sea and over 4 billion years ago managed to evolve into a human (so called theory of evolution). Who created that atoms that make up that baterium, down to the last neutrino? Let me guess - it was all there! Like a magic show!

From: Mr. Bottomtooth
I base my opinions on facts (that, at the time, seem true) and to the truth that there is a lot in this universe that is, and probably always will be, unknown. The only difference between Christianity (religion) and agnostism is that I don't fill the blank spots (the unkown) with religion, and then treat my beliefs as the truth.

As pointed out, I don't know where it all came from. There are theories (I'm sure you have heard) but I don't know it as a fact. I accept the fact that there are things I can't understand in this world. I don't have the urge to fill all the blank spaces with a God. But then again there might be a God, I don't know.

From: dixienormous
I think people are agnostics because they hate the fact that someone is more powerful then them - truly resent it.

:frusty: ^

"'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Leviticus 20:13
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders."
1 Corinthians 6:9

This is exactly what I meant when I talked about the ultimate truth Christians have. These quotes from the bible mean nothing to me. It is a wonderful book with many good lessons on how to live life. But I don't take it as the absolute voice of rightness. There is no debate going on whether the Bible says homosexuality is wrong or not, I think we can all agree on that.

And please don't call other people a fool only because they don't share the same view on the world as you do.

From: dixienormous
If you fools (face it, you are that(saying this to people talking about Godly proof only!))

I only called those who fulfilled the above fools.
Now, tell me "Mr. Bottomtooth", do you think one dude banging another dude is natural? Please explain your answer. Do not tell me that you respect their right, etc, etc, is it natural for one dude to bang another - explain the answer.

Hey dixie, when did you choose to not be gay? Since you say being gay is a choice, when did you choose to be hetero?

Same question goes to anyone who says being gay is a choice.

Don't be ridiculous. You do not choose to be straight, you are that by default. You choose to be gay.

No, that's a cop out. If being gay is a choice, when did you decide to be straight? Because with a choice, there are two options. In this case, gay or not. When did you make that decision?

Alright,

as I don't claim to possess the right to proclaim something natural or unnatural, and you seem to want a "yes or no" asnwer, I would have to say yes, I do think homosexuality is natural.

I personally could never think about kissing or having sex with another man, but that's because I am (drum roll) straight. I can imagine kissing and having sex with another man is the most natural thing in a world to a gay man.

So, "dixienormous", my answer is yes.

I did not decide to be straight, get it into your mind. I was born straight. Born, do you know what that means? It is unnatural for a dude to like dudes. It is also artificial. If you like dudes, your a freak. Your acting like being gay is the norm lmfao.

Bottomtooth, you did not explain yourself. Saying "I can imagine kissing and having sex with another man is the most natural thing in a world to a gay man" is not an answer because you are not a gay man and that's hearsay.
Gays are freaks. Their proclaimed love is an artificial hope they've managed to tattoo into their brains. They even try to convince themselves they didn't have a choice - totally wrong. You are born straight as a pole.

And where is your proven evidence for this? Excluding any and all biblical quotes. You said we were not doctors / whatever, you are not either.

From: dixienormous
You are born straight as a pole.

From: dixienormous
Bottomtooth, you did not explain yourself. Saying "I can imagine kissing and having sex with another man is the most natural thing in a world to a gay man" is not an answer because you are not a gay man and that's hearsay.
Gays are freaks. Their proclaimed love is an artificial hope they've managed to tattoo into their brains. They even try to convince themselves they didn't have a choice - totally wrong. You are born straight as a pole.

I did explain it. I said I don't think I have the right to decide what is natural and what is unnatural, therefore I think homosexuality is natural. That is an explanation.

Saying homosexuality is not natural because it's wrong and all gays are freaks, that's not an explanation. That's an opinion. And frankly not a very good one.

1. Risk, I've asked you 4 times (four times!!!) to answer that question, and you still haven't answered. Since I'm not sure about your intelligence, these are some key words to deciding if someone is asking you a question (?/who/what/when/were/why/did=question).

2. Tooth. Yes, you said you don't have the right, then you went ahead and told me it was natural. You can't make up your mind either when someone else on TV doesn't make it up for you. That is not an explanation, please look up the word on the dictionary
1. Google.com, 2. Define: explanation 3. See more results (this is a helpful tool I use all the time).

It is not natural for a man and a man to have sex. It is natural for a women and a man to have sex. That's as simple as I can put it. A gay = an abomination, a man/women = couple. The butt is for ejecting excrements, not inserting dicks (excuse for language ladies), but I'm trying to explain it as simply as possible.

Nope, there is no default. Is being male a default? Or do people have to choose to be male or female now? Last time I checked, that was driven by genetics, and so is a persons sexual orientation.

That's very Christian of you, belittle another human being's intelligence.

I have answered that question many times. You also have not read your bible recently. As I am being a good human being and loving others despite their choices. Just as Jesus did, right? He loved everyone equally. But you call it BS.

From: dixienormous
1. Risk, I've asked you 4 times (four times!!!) to answer that question, and you still haven't answered. Since I'm not sure about your intelligence, these are some key words to deciding if someone is asking you a question (?/who/what/when/were/why/did=question).

From: Camo Developer
Nope, there is no default. Is being male a default? Or do people have to choose to be male or female now? Last time I checked, that was driven by genetics, and so is a persons sexual orientation.

There is no choice , but by default you are indeed female.
(the clitoris develops into a penis, and the ovaries drop down into testies)

From: Camo Developer
Nope, there is no default. Is being male a default? Or do people have to choose to be male or female now? Last time I checked, that was driven by genetics, and so is a persons sexual orientation.

Your argument is so wrong, irreverent, and far fetched I'm finding it hard to explain these simple things you should know almost instinctively.
Males are born with penis's
Women are born with vaginas and boobs (later developed)
You might find this good, refreshing reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans

From: RISK
That's very Christian of you, belittle another human being's intelligence.

I have answered that question many times. You also have not read your bible recently. As I am being a good human being and loving others despite their choices. Just as Jesus did, right? He loved everyone equally. But you call it BS.

Wow, you really don't get it do you? I've asked you 5 times in the simplest language, defined questions, but you won't answer. Priceless. Gives me valuable insight into your personality > Politician.

From: dixienormous
The butt is for ejecting excrements, not inserting dicks (excuse for language ladies), but I'm trying to explain it as simply as possible.

Twice as tight and 4 degrees hotter(than a vagina), and as long as its taken slowly the catcher seems to enjoy it more as well.

You ignored my request of you providing proven evidence excluding any and all biblical quotes.
You ignored my statement about you calling the way Jesus was, pretty much in a nutshell, BS.
You ignored my statement about you running from science and anything related to science.

When a baby is in the womb, it starts off as a female. Thus explaining nipples on a male. It then later generates a specific gender's reproductive organs and that is what decides a human's gender. At best of what I remember of that, anyway.
This, by the way, is all done in the womb. Or has God proven that scientifically proven fact a lie?

From: dixienormous
Your argument is so wrong, irreverent, and far fetched I'm finding it hard to explain these simple things you should know almost instinctively.
Males are born with penis's
Women are born with vaginas and boobs (later developed)
You might find this good, refreshing reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans

Meatyfrog you are a gross individual. But you are also a perfect example in that for you it's all about the pleasure - not about genetics. That's sick.
RISK, that's 7 times now. I've given up on you. Requirements for conversing include an IQ of at least 30 only please.
And born means out of the womb btw - just in case you didn't know.

You realize the male g-spot is in the anus… Right? Why did God make it this way for males if he did not intend for some of them to be homosexual?

E: You also still ignore my statements and questions, reverting to a question in which I have no answer for. I do not find it right or wrong. I only care about if someone is happy or not.

From: dixienormous
Meatyfrog you are a gross individual. But you are also a perfect example in that for you it's all about the pleasure - not about genetics. That's sick.

From: dixienormous
Meatyfrog you are a gross individual. But you are also a perfect example in that for you it's all about the pleasure - not about genetics. That's sick.
RISK, that's 7 times now. I've given up on you. Requirements for conversing include an IQ of at least 30 only please.
And born means out of the womb btw - just in case you didn't know.

Think about this I'm a gross individual because I was speaking about a undefined's sex anus, I could be talking about male or female, in my case I was talking about a female, note to you some women actually enjoy it.

My post had nothing to do with what a persons organs are born with, but when you decided to be a male. You ignored all of questions, answer my latest one. So when did you choose to be male? By your logic, we choose everything.

Ohhhh IQ of 30 is needed, didn't know we had to get on Fox News IQ level.

From: RISK
You realize the male g-spot is in the anus… Right? Why did God make it this way for males if he did not intend for some of them to be homosexual?

E: You also still ignore my statements and questions, reverting to a question in which I have no answer for. I do not find it right or wrong. I only care about if someone is happy or not.

Oh, now it's God, that's good at least. The others were talking about self-creation. Give me 30 seconds O.K? I'll call up God really quick and ask him why…….
Lines busy, let me guess then. Maybe it's because we were born female in the womb? Maybe it's an organ important to something other then sexual stimulation? All I know is that it's not meant for homosexuals pleasure.
Truthfully, it's sick for women too. I wouldn't stick mine up there - and it's thoughts like that that led to homosexuality probably.

So what about the theory of homosexuality as population Control?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/g-roger-denson/is-homosexuality-populati_b_784449.html

"If you go just two decades ahead, all the trends are indicating that we are going to need to be producing something like 40 percent more food, 40 percent more available freshwater, and actually about 50 percent more energy. And, remember, that's clean energy." - Sir John Beddington, government scientific adviser

Source: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/video/blog/2011/10/world_population_set_to_hit_7.html


Choice: Homosexuality, Abortion, Keeping it in your pants, One child Policy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy

From: RISK
You realize the male g-spot is in the anus… Right? Why did God make it this way for males if he did not intend for some of them to be homosexual?

That's completely false, the male G spot is not in the anus, were did u get that idea? It hasn't even been scientifically proven for the G spot to exist!

But why would we need the g-spot there (For us males while the female g-spot is in the vagina), when we are not supposed to have any homosexual relations at all?
All you know? You know nothing then. You seem like a troll at this point, Dixie. It's beginning to show thru and you are looking pretty dang arrogant.

The g-spot, by the way, is for PURE sexual stimulation.

From: dixienormous
Oh, now it's God, that's good at least. The others were talking about self-creation. Give me 30 seconds O.K? I'll call up God really quick and ask him why…….
Lines busy, let me guess then. Maybe it's because we were born female in the womb? Maybe it's an organ important to something other then sexual stimulation? All I know is that it's not meant for homosexuals pleasure.
Truthfully, it's sick for women too. I wouldn't stick mine up there - and it's thoughts like that that led to homosexuality probably.

From: dixienormous
All I know is that it's not meant for homosexuals pleasure.

Oh, do you know this as a fact?

Also, you're saying that the females f spot travels through the ass to get to the vagina?

Your not born to be gay you choose it because your parents did not teach you right.

Scroll up. We have been thru this already. You're a little tardy to the party, Harvy.

From: Jhangir
Your not born to be gay you choose it because your parents did not teach you right.

From: mika
That's completely false, the male G spot is not in the anus, were did u get that idea? It hasn't even been scientifically proven for the G spot to exist!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostate_massage#Prostate_massage_as_sexual_practice

^
|
THERE IT IS

From: mika
That's completely false, the male G spot is not in the anus, were did u get that idea? It hasn't even been scientifically proven for the G spot to exist!

Thanks -wasn't exactly sure what the G-spot even was (looked it up quickly).

Meatyfrog, looking up conspiracy theories is a great pastime. Very fun thing to do in school, but I've already considered it - highly unlikely and highly dangerous.

Now RISK, calm down. This is a civil argument, not somewhere to prove that your a raging homosexual.

From: Camo Developer
No, that's a cop out. If being gay is a choice, when did you decide to be straight? Because with a choice, there are two options. In this case, gay or not. When did you make that decision?

I believe you are naturally born straight. Okay say you were living in the jungle all by yourself. You have no clothes, you are naked. Say after years of living you find 2 people one male and one female. Who would be more appealing to you, the female or the male? Keep in thought you are all by yourself with zero knowledge of the outside world. You have zero knowledge of the gay ideology.

From: dixienormous
Thanks -wasn't exactly sure what the G-spot even was (looked it up quickly).

Meatyfrog, looking up conspiracy theories is a great pastime. Very fun thing to do in school, but I've already considered it - highly unlikely and highly dangerous.

Now RISK, calm down. This is a civil argument, not somewhere to prove that your a raging homosexual.

Just because you don't know how to hit it doesn't make it a conspiracy theory good game though.
Side note: Increase your sexual repertoire

I'm bi-sexual, friend and this has just proven that you have nowhere else to go with this argument. You are trying everything you can, even low blows.

From: dixienormous
Now RISK, calm down. This is a civil argument, not somewhere to prove that your a raging homosexual.

Bisexual lol - you really are greedy huh? You just can't pick one of the two. I know you'd like to get down and do some low blows wouldn't you "friend" - but I'm straight.
Some raging flambouyant homosexuals in this thread lol. Face it, you're the minority, I'm the majority. Being gay is not natural, it goes against nature, and hopefully you'll all just blow away.

From: RISK
You realize the male g-spot is in the anus… Right?

Well now I know why taking a good crap feels so good sometimes. :sasmokin:

@Dixie: You seem to be picking up fights all over the board so I'll leave you alone. You win. I now hate homosexuals. In fact, I might become a serial killer. Thanks for making me realise the path to the light.

This is so wrong. And being a serial killer is even worse - be ashamed - your a raving, flamboyant homosexual serial killer.

From: dixienormous
Some raging open minded individuals in this thread lol. Face it, you're the minority, I'm the majority.

FIXED
Already accepted NP.

From: Meatyfrog
I totally agree with you Dixienormous. Being homosexual is wrong in every imaginable way. We choose to be homosexuals (not that genetics BS), and we all talk in a lisp btw. P.S. I only receive.

OT: done with this thread unless someone has some relevant information I can shoot down.

Calm down and stop slandering people.

From: dixienormous
Now RISK, calm down. This is a civil argument, not somewhere to prove that your a raging homosexual.

Like you're one to be talking, really.

From: kingarabian
I believe you are naturally born straight.

My post was to try and get dixie to think, but it failed. As for your situation, I can't honestly answer that since I have knowledge that gays exist. My answer will be biased.

From: dixienormous
I know you'd like to get down and do some low blows wouldn't you "friend" - but I'm straight.
Some raging flambouyant homosexuals in this thread lol. Face it, you're the minority, I'm the majority. Being gay is not natural, it goes against nature, and hopefully you'll all just blow away.

Wow, did you really just attack RISK for no reason? You need to stop with this hostility. Who's the "raging flambouyant homosexuals" in this thread? Please, point them out. All I see is raging "Bible thumpers".

From: dixienormous
This is so wrong. And being a serial killer is even worse - be ashamed - your a raving, flamboyant homosexual serial killer.

Wow, name calling, forgot we were in the second grade.

From: dixinormous
OT: done with this thread unless someone has some relevant information I can shoot down.

Nice one, you quit without saying it. You're backing down from a discussion because you can't come up with any more attacks. Thank you, now this can return to normal. Oh, and by the way, you didn't shoot down anything.

Camo…you really are a violent person aren't you? I see now that this is a gay support thread, not a discussion, so my posts are useless since I'm hitting curved walls. Some people have to back down (the ones with reason usually), and I am being reasonable and backing down. Now, be calm child. Do not let hypocrisy prevail.

From: dixienormous
Camo…you really are a violent person aren't you? I see now that this is a gay support thread, not a discussion, so my posts are useless since I'm hitting curved walls. Some people have to back down (the ones with reason usually), and I am being reasonable and backing down. Now, be calm child. Do not let hypocrisy prevail.

Now I know you are trolling.

I'm not trolling. Do not come up with conclusions that you have no reliable basis for. Let the topic keep on going - this is off topic now.

From: dixienormous
OT: done with this thread unless someone has some relevant information I can shoot down.

What happend? What we have said so far according to you has not been relevant. You've even stated what I said was "off topic" conclusion you are a liar.

And yes proof that you are a troll is simply from the definition of a troll.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

From: dixienormous
Camo…you really are a violent person aren't you? I see now that this is a gay support thread, not a discussion, so my posts are useless since I'm hitting curved walls. Some people have to back down (the ones with reason usually), and I am being reasonable and backing down. Now, be calm child. Do not let hypocrisy prevail.

I'm the violent one? How was I violent? You're the one attacking everyone, not once have I attacked you, or anyone because of their opinions or beliefs.

This is a discussion, and by that, people who partake in one have open minds. I can see that you're close minded, and that's fine, but don't start attacking because we have different views than yourself.

You're not being reasonable, you twisted the thought in your mind to make yourself feel like you are. You're not the only one with reason, your "reason" is flawed. Get off your high (actually very short) horse.

You're telling me to calm down? Ha, now that's funny. I've been calm the entire time, can you say the same?

From: dixienormous
OT: done with this thread unless someone has some relevant information I can shoot down.

yet you keep on posting in the thread

I've had enough.

I'm not fond of these types of threads. Threads about gay marriage, religion, or politics are always asking for a fight. But you all insist on having them and they always result the same as it did here.

Please save us all the trouble and stop bothering with these topics.


Closed.

[admin]Conditional Unlock.

After discussion with yakman and after letting you all cool down for a week this thread will now be unlocked, conditionally. But be aware that this thread and all its posters are on super thin ice. The first sign of it getting out of control again and any more personal attacks and flaming such as:

your a raving, flamboyant homosexual serial killer.

This thread will be instantly locked for good. End of discussion. No appeal.

It will also put the future of any of this type of thread (Political/Religious) threads into questions. As in the staff will discuss banning them from the forums altogether.

Debate the position not the person.

You have been warned. Keep it calm.
[/admin]

The amount of bigotry in this thread is really surprising, your sexuality is not a choice, I know plenty of Christians who believe that and there really is no going against it, I have countless gay friends who will say the same exact thing. This is as much a civil rights issue as anything else and the fact that people are still using the bible/other religious texts as a basis for not letting gays function as normal people is blatantly contradictory to the United State's foundation (once again, separation of church and state). Women's rights were fought against on religious grounds and I'm sure that people see the error in that now, it's not like homosexuality is a new thing either

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_LGBT_history

I guess the main issue seems to be the sexuality as a choice thing, but I feel it's as much of a choice as your gender (whole 'nother debate). Why would anyone voluntarily put themselves through the crap that homosexuals have to go through today? It doesn't make any sense. I really can't see any justification to knowingly oppress a large group of people who are just as human as any other human.

From: CameronXVX
The amount of bigotry in this thread is really surprising, your sexuality is not a choice, I know plenty of Christians who believe that and there really is no going against it, I have countless gay friends who will say the same exact thing. This is as much a civil rights issue as anything else and the fact that people are still using the bible/other religious texts as a basis for not letting gays function as normal people is blatantly contradictory to the United State's foundation (once again, separation of church and state). Women's rights were fought against on religious grounds and I'm sure that people see the error in that now, it's not like homosexuality is a new thing either

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_LGBT_history

I guess the main issue seems to be the sexuality as a choice thing, but I feel it's as much of a choice as your gender (whole 'nother debate). Why would anyone voluntarily put themselves through the crap that homosexuals have to go through today? It doesn't make any sense. I really can't see any justification to knowingly oppress a large group of people who are just as human as any other human.

Homosexuality is a choice.
There is absolutely no evidence that it's not a choice. There are people saying because of this, blablah blah. But there is no evidence that can come close to proving that it is not a choice.

There is plenty evidence that says it is a choice. For instance, straights turning gay or gays turning straight. Twins having differing sexual orientations later on in life.

The other day i was watching TV and this stupid show came on, in this show these kids were saying they were born the wrong gender and that they feel like they're the opposite sex except for physically. The one kid was like, "I look in the mirror and i don't even recognize myself, I should have been born a girl." Not only is this nonsense it's sad that our country gives them the time of day.

A marriage is between man and woman. Why should that be changed? Gays have no less rights. They just cant get married. lmfao…
Well why don't we bitch and complain that 10 year olds cant drive. They can't because driving is for 16+(depending on state).

There is no evidence that being gay is a choice either. You can argue that both sides.

The other day i was watching TV and this stupid show came on, in this show these kids were saying they were born the wrong gender and that they feel like they're the opposite sex except for physically. The one kid was like, "I look in the mirror and i don't even recognize myself, I should have been born a girl." Not only is this nonsense it's sad that our country gives them the time of day.

What? We should just ignore them like they're trash? You can't help being born feeling a certain way. I don't care how young the person is, you're born that way. How is it nonsense?

You're comparing apples and oranges. Gays not being able to marry is nothing compared to 10 year olds driving. One is about spending time with a person you love, the other is a safety concern. Do you really want 10 year olds driving? They're so immature at that age, that is why they can't drive.

From: Camo Developer
You're comparing apples and oranges. Gays not being able to marry is nothing compared to 10 year olds driving. One is about spending time with a person you love, the other is a safety concern. Do you really want 10 year olds driving? They're so immature at that age, that is why they can't drive.

I don't want gays fucking either. But we can't ban that now can we?

I posted this earlier in the thread:

"Incidence is the number of new HIV infections that occur during a given year. CDC estimates that approximately 50,000 people are newly infected with HIV each year in the United States. In 2009 (the most recent year that data are available), there were an estimated 48,100 new HIV infections.[1] Most (61%) of these new infections occurred in gay and bisexual men."
– http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm

Why does it bother you so much? It's not like you're going to see them doing it. Yeah, you may have to get use to them kissing and holding hands, big flippin deal. Does them getting married personally affect you? No, it does not.

As far as them having sex, it would only affect you if you were to actually watch them do it. Which I highly doubt you will, honestly, just get over it. It's not like as soon as they can marry, they'll just start having sex in public all over the place. That's why they have a house/apt/living area, so they can do it in private, just like you do with another person of your preference.

As far as your stats, yeah, that's accurate. However, it only affects the gay men who are having sex with people who have HIV. Unless you're going to swap needles, drink their blood, have sex with them, you'll be just fine.

From: Camo Developer
Why does it bother you so much? It's not like you're going to see them doing it. Yeah, you may have to get use to them kissing and holding hands, big flippin deal. Does them getting married personally affect you? No, it does not.

As far as them having sex, it would only affect you if you were to actually watch them do it. Which I highly doubt you will, honestly, just get over it. It's not like as soon as they can marry, they'll just start having sex in public all over the place. That's why they have a house/apt/living area, so they can do it in private, just like you do with another person of your preference.

As far as your stats, yeah, that's accurate. However, it only affects the gay men who are having sex with people who have HIV. Unless you're going to swap needles, drink their blood, have sex with them, you'll be just fine.

bisexuals have sex with females. I have sex with females. They fuck with my odds of getting something nasty.

"as far as them having sex, it would only affect you if you were to actually watch them do it." Idc that gays fuck, it doesn't gross me out to think about it, the stats is why i would love to see being gay banned. That's it.

I'm no homophobe, i have zero problem with gays, i just have no IDEA why they should be allowed to get married.

Marriage: the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.

and until gays pushed for it that was the only definition. Gay's can get every single fricken right that heterosexual marriage's have except for tax things.
So why do they even care if they're "married", they should be content with knowing they love each other.

Why don't they get a civil union, call it that. I don't want gays destroying the image of marriage more than divorce already has.

From: footballjds
Homosexuality is a choice.
There is absolutely no evidence that it's not a choice. There are people saying because of this, blablah blah. But there is no evidence that can come close to proving that it is not a choice.

There is plenty evidence that says it is a choice. For instance, straights turning gay or gays turning straight. Twins having differing sexual orientations later on in life.

The other day i was watching TV and this stupid show came on, in this show these kids were saying they were born the wrong gender and that they feel like they're the opposite sex except for physically. The one kid was like, "I look in the mirror and i don't even recognize myself, I should have been born a girl." Not only is this nonsense it's sad that our country gives them the time of day.

A marriage is between man and woman. Why should that be changed? Gays have no less rights. They just cant get married. lmfao…
Well why don't we bitch and complain that 10 year olds cant drive. They can't because driving is for 16+(depending on state).

Why is a marriage between a man and a woman? What is the basis behind that? I mean as often as we tout our ability to make our own choices (in the united states) this is blatantly infringing on gays rights to do the same. As someone who isn't gay or transgender, I hardly consider myself qualified to say what's going on in those who are's heads but this is something that has been happening since the beginning of humanity (see links I posted) is it just some huge coincidence? I don't really see how you can possibly say that, the same for people who are transgender. Are you really going to tell the OP to his face that he is a liar for saying it wasn't his choice to be gay?
actual evidence see: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1997/06/homosexuality-and-biology/4683/
and numerous other studies, statistics, etc)
Not only that, but marriage is the ultimate tier of a relationship, assuming we acknowledge that homosexual relationships do exist why are we not affording them the same rights that we would for ourselves? They are no less human, this is kind of a no brainer. The only reason (and original basis) for keeping marriage "between a man and a woman" is biblical, and has no place in US law.

From: footballjds
bisexuals have sex with females. I have sex with females. They fuck with my odds of getting something nasty.

"as far as them having sex, it would only affect you if you were to actually watch them do it." Idc that gays fuck, it doesn't gross me out to think about it, the stats is why i would love to see being gay banned. That's it.

I'm no homophobe, i have zero problem with gays, i just have no IDEA why they should be allowed to get married.

Marriage: the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.

and until gays pushed for it that was the only definition. Gay's can get every single fricken right that heterosexual marriage's have except for tax things.
So why do they even care if they're "married", they should be content with knowing they love each other.

Why don't they get a civil union, call it that. I don't want gays destroying the image of marriage more than divorce already has.

Is that really your concern? Wow, that's so low, to be honest with you.

You honestly have no idea why gays want to be able to marry? Really? You do know what marriage signifies right? It's a commitment, saying that I love the person I'm marrying with all of my heart and want to spend the rest of my life with them. Why shouldn't gays be allowed to share that feeling? They should be allowed to publicly show their love of each other by getting married, it's just fair.

Marriage is only what the state calls it, it's not defined in nature. Marriage can be whatever you make it, it's not written in stone.

From: footballjds
Marriage: the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.

and until gays pushed for it that was the only definition. Gay's can get every single fricken right that heterosexual marriage's have except for tax things.
So why do they even care if they're "married", they should be content with knowing they love each other.

Why don't they get a civil union, call it that. I don't want gays destroying the image of marriage more than divorce already has.

I agree with this. I think that gays should be able to have the same rights and tax deductions as everybody else, but please, don't call it marriage. Especially if you're an avid atheist, that almost seems hypocritical to me.

Society and its standards seem to have changed a lot.

OK, I figure its about time I actually posted my stance on this rather than just posting links to tick off the homophobes out there.

Firstly, I am straight. Some of my best friends are gay, and you know what, they are guys, too. Do I feel uncomfortable around them, no. Do they feel uncomfortable around me, no. Why? Its much like a straight man hanging out with a straight woman, just because one is interested in the other and the other is not, does that mean that things are not able to work? No. As it was explained to me by one of my friends, "I'm not turned on by every single guy I meet, just like you are not turned on by every woman you meet. Just because you have girl friends doesn't mean you're going to jump all over them." This is the best analogy I have gotten in many years.

For example, when I hang out with my girl friends, I'm not spending the time thinking: "I wonder how they would be in bed," as I hope most of you behave. Granted, the thought obviously crosses my mind, but that's just human sexual nature. Now, do you think this is right? Is there anything wrong with this? Nope. Nadda. This is, in general, how every opposite-sexed relationship typically functions at the friendship level. Now, lets flip the male for a female and have two females where one is gay and one is straight. We have arbitrarily changed the sexes, but does that change the situation? No. Its identical. Why should it be any different, both are humans, no?

Moving on, when we get into the debates about whether gay people should allowed marriage there are several points to consider. But, instead lets just say: "should people be allowed to marry?" As a reference, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states the following:

1. Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
2. Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
3. The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

(Source)
The UDHR is a document that must be upheld by all members of the United Nations (UN). Moving forward, we see that all of North America, and most of Europe are a part of the UN (Source). That being said, one of the conditions of being a part of the UN is to up hold the UDHR. Again, we see that there is a sense of hypocrisy. On the note of the UN, Hillary Clinton has made a beautiful speech on this topic at the UN general meeting (Source). Hillary's most prevalent point is attempting to eliminate the distinguishing of "gay rights" and "human rights." They are the same thing, as we are all human, no?

One may dispute the concept of a family, stating: "But a family consists of a mother and father, etc." who is to say that the definition of a family is not: "A group of individuals consisting, but not limited to, a set of parents/guardians, and kin." This second, more general outline, includes everyone. We have seen in the past that gay partnerships can raise a family and children. If you are not familiar with Zach Wahls' defence in the state of Iowa, I highly suggest reading this (and watching the associated video). Zach is an excellent example of why the current prejudice is a falsehood. Another notion is that Zach, is straight! Some have stated along the lines of: "one gay makes more gays, its an epidemic." Are you serious? Yes, there is a sense of conditioning, but it does not create gay people. It merely makes people more comfortable in the realisation of their own sexuality.

Sexuality by nature. I am not an expert by any means, but I know this: sexuality is not a choice, but a subconscious process we have no control over. Conditioning is a large player here, but not in the sense many of you claim. Conditioning occurs to opening the eyes of people who need it. Conditioning occurs to help people transition into a lifestyle that really makes them happy. Imagine, living your life with someone who you really do not love, but are too scared to be with someone you really can.

OK, this is not really the end.. I will add more as I get more time later. Back to studying.

I think the word marriage has transformed from "The union of two people by god" to "just two people that want to live together (long-term)" You're right, in today's world, there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to have the same rights as heterosexual couples have. I don't think anyone has the right to be able to tell you how your relationships work. I understand people that are slightly uncomfortable with gay people, but most of these people keep it to themselves and only reveal this in well-known company. As for the severe homophobes, all of them have struck me as less than desirable human beings. I'm not gay, but I love gay people; some of the greatest people I've ever met, their rights shouldn't be limited by ignorance.

My views:
1. It is unnatural; men go with women, not with other men.
2. I find it hard to believe that you complain about simple things like medical information being released to your parents instead of your boyfriend. Gays have more rights then almost any other group in the U.S. Manufacturers are scared to fire you people because they'll get a lawsuit delivered within days - for discrimination, etc. You get in easier to higher level schools because the government rewards colleges who support minorities. There are dozens of benefits you get over me.
3. You would offend so many people if gays could get legally married (nationwide). The definition and tradition of marriage would be completely altered.

Summed up, I'm extremely glad that you can't get married, and I think you have way more rights then I have - as the white, straight, majority.

On the lookout for raging mods give me warnings for no reason and with no explanation.

From: dixienormous
My views:
Summed up, I'm extremely glad that you can't get married, and I think you have way more rights then I have - as the white, straight, majority.

I've been watching this thread, and this'll be the only thing I'll post here. Heterosexual and Homosexual people do not have the same human rights. That's something you must understand. You are allowed to marry, but they aren't? They are also human! The "rights" you mentioned are only there because there are unbalanced rights between Homosexual/Heterosexual. I have no problems with gay people; they don't hurt me in any way.

Affirmative action and gay marriage are two different subjects. And keep in mind that as humans we are autonomous, with that being said, if gays could marry and you are offended by it, the wrong falls on you not on the homosexual. And if you want to say it's not natural, it's not natural for you to live past 35. Medical attention is not natural, it is not natural to watch television, traveling hundreds of miles sitting down comfortably in a heated/air-conditioned vehicle, is also not natural. If you want to argue by nature, you should require it of yourself to stop doing these unnatural things. You're argument is full of flaws.

From: dixienormous
You would offend

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9HRLvfbauA

You also have to keep in mind that the rights gays are asking for ie. the same tax status, the power of attorney, the next of kin, is not covered under religious marriage. They have just gone together for so long you assume that those are covered by marriage. They are in no way undermining the tradition of marriage by these means, especially according to criteria under which this thread seems to have been inspired by.

From: dixienormous
My views:
1. It is unnatural; men go with women, not with other men.
2. I find it hard to believe that you complain about simple things like medical information being released to your parents instead of your boyfriend. Gays have more rights then almost any other group in the U.S. Manufacturers are scared to fire you people because they'll get a lawsuit delivered within days - for discrimination, etc. You get in easier to higher level schools because the government rewards colleges who support minorities. There are dozens of benefits you get over me.
3. You would offend so many people if gays could get legally married (nationwide). The definition and tradition of marriage would be completely altered.

Summed up, I'm extremely glad that you can't get married, and I think you have way more rights then I have - as the white, straight, majority.

On the lookout for raging mods give me warnings for no reason and with no explanation.

I mean, I'm not trying to be a dick here but this is flat out wrong, first, your sexual orientation isn't something asked for on college applications, secondly, gay people can be fired just as easily, the 'reverse discrimination' shtick is a joke and will always be one. Straight, white, males are privileged above all other groups and you have to be blind to see otherwise.

Offending people is hardly an issue, people were 'offended' that blacks were able to use the same public facilities, eat at the same restaurants, etc post civil rights movement. If you're going to let a group of people suffer because you're worried about their comfort zone that's just a cop out.

How do you determine natural? The fact that homosexuality has been around as long as humans have sure seems natural to me (see links posted on previous pages, there were even times when homosexual relationships were encouraged).

Finally, marriage is a joke and has been for quite some time now.

Among adults whose parents had two or more failed marriages, 67% divorced, 26% two or more times.

Among adults whose parents divorced and remarried only once, 58% divorced, 19% at least twice.

Among adults raised in intact homes, 41% divorced, 9% two or more times.

From: dixienormous
There is no excuse - you are what you make yourself. It's despicable imo. It goes against religion, nature, and even against the human race.

There's actually lots of animals that have "gay" relationships. Nothing in the bible says "thou shalt not suck another mans ding dong". Ending slavery went "against the human race", so did womens rights, ending of child labor and a shit load of other things that are classified as good now.

In other words if you're against gay relationships, you're culturally retarded because weather you like it or not it will happen.

I'm not gay in any way, I just don't really care who another person says that they love. I don't get it, it's kinda gross to me but it's their dissission so just let them be.

I read a statistic somewhere it was like 70% of all marriages end up in divorce. If you ask me, the only thing that's ruining the marriage system is the idiots you can't stay with one person for longer then 1 year…

Im not against it, but I don't have the strongest stance on being for it. To me, as long as a gay male does not "hit on me" they can do whatever they want. Yes, I do have gay friends, both male and female. Some of them are really good friends too. And I hope to stay good friends with them. They're people too.

From: kyocera
There's actually lots of animals that have "gay" relationships. Nothing in the bible says "thou shalt not suck another mans ding dong". Ending slavery went "against the human race", so did womens rights, ending of child labor and a shit load of other things that are classified as good now.

In other words if you're against gay relationships, you're culturally retarded because weather you like it or not it will happen.

I'm not gay in any way, I just don't really care who another person says that they love. I don't get it, it's kinda gross to me but it's their dissission so just let them be.

I read a statistic somewhere it was like 70% of all marriages end up in divorce. If you ask me, the only thing that's ruining the marriage system is the idiots you can't stay with one person for longer then 1 year…

Humans and animals are totally different things. Yes, humans may be animals, but we are set apart by intelligence and soul. It's not a viable argument to compare the two. The Bible does say that you should not have a man-on-man relationship. Ending slavery did not go against the human race…not sure what your talking about. Many countries did not even have slavery, and truthfully, slavery in some form will always be around. Wage workers are practically slave to their masters, and it is nature that the rich will control the poor. Women right's do not go against human nature either. Many cultures were matrilineal from the start (such as in Africa). Child labor has absolutely no relevance. In the time period you are talking about, it was a human necessity for survival. Many of the poor immigrants/common people could not survive with just the father working (as traditional).
You look at things from a one-point perspective. Homosexuality is not a culture. It is the opposite, it is the pestilence of culture. The U.S. is just very gay friendly. If a gay went to some countries in Africa, they would be executed. Are they culturally retarded? Truthfully, culture is decided by the masses - not by an individual (or a minority).
If I wasn't here it would be a gay support thread with them all agreeing with each other. Your statistics (about divorces) are horribly wrong…I don't know where you got them from, but I do agree that it is sad about the definite increase in divorce rates. Those statistics are based off of a small group that have a bad marriage history (parents or personal). You can't base the whole world's population off of that.


Reverse discrimination is not a joke in the least. Most minorities: African Americans, Indians, Gays, Jews, etc will get some sort of boost that non-minorities wouldn't get. If I called a gay kid a "homo" in the hall, I get punished. But if he calls me a "cracker," then no one cares.
Also, black racism took part mostly in the U.S., Carribean, and Southern American countries. It is sad that we try to make up for the past in the present.
I determine natural by the fact that the penis is made for the vagina. Not for another dude's mouth or butt.
Btw, anyone want to give me an example of animal homosexuality? I think people are confusing it with animal domination.

"Medical attention is not natural, it is not natural to watch television, traveling hundreds of miles sitting down comfortably in a heated/air-conditioned vehicle, is also not natural. If you want to argue by nature, you should require it of yourself to stop doing these unnatural things. You're argument is full of flaws. "
Since when lol? I'm talking about reproduction, and your talking about technology not being natural. It will always be natural for a human to want to be comfortable and to do as little work as possible - and it has been since the beginning of time…your argument makes absolutely no sense to me. I'm still confused how your connecting technology and nature, please make bridge between the two.

Africa is largely made up of third world countries, we are a first world country and held to higher moral standards. Any country that executes gays or lesbians is backwards.

Cracker argument is laughable, and quotas are illegal and the idea of accepting people on grounds of race or sexual preference (jobs, college, etc) is hardly a bad one due to the fact that those people have endured a lot more than we have (which is painfully obvious with a lot of people in this thread calling homosexuality 'a crime against nature' 'pestilence' etc.) Blacks, Indians, essentially anyone in america who isn't a white male battle stereotypes and cultural expectations as well.

We're looking at things from a one point perspective and the only thing you're citing is the bible. newsflash: god has no role in government and lawmaking. Leave gay marriage up to the churches and other establishments. It's a free country, this is a black and white issue, homosexuals rights are being infringed on and that is against the constitution, plain and simple.

From: CameronXVX
Africa is largely made up of third world countries, we are a first world country and held to higher moral standards. Any country that executes gays or lesbians is backwards.

Cracker argument is laughable, and quotas are illegal and the idea of accepting people on grounds of race or sexual preference (jobs, college, etc) is hardly a bad one due to the fact that those people have endured a lot more than we have (which is painfully obvious with a lot of people in this thread calling homosexuality 'a crime against nature' 'pestilence' etc.) Blacks, Indians, essentially anyone in america who isn't a white male battle stereotypes and cultural expectations as well.

We're looking at things from a one point perspective and the only thing you're citing is the bible. newsflash: god has no role in government and lawmaking. Leave gay marriage up to the churches and other establishments. It's a free country, this is a black and white issue, homosexuals rights are being infringed on and that is against the constitution, plain and simple.

The Constitution is barely more then a symbol. They did not experience more. The "cracker" argument is true, and it is the same with "redneck" and various other terms. It's a double standard. I'm not citing only the Bible, I'm sure that's what you'd like to believe. Newsflash: God has got to do a lot with the government. The pledge you say every day says "Under God", the Constitution which you talk about mentions God (lots of times), many extremely important government buildings have God written on their walls, and when you swear in court, you swear on the Bible. These are only a few examples - don't be naive. And this is not a free country. Lots of immigrants (currently from Mexico), are suffering persecution almost akin to slavery. They do crappy jobs for extremely crappy pay, and have practically the whole U.S. population against them. At least the slaves had somewhere to run to - here they run from extreme crime, poverty, and a tryanical government only to be subjected to nationwide persecution (by both people and government).
Here's another newsflash for you: marriage: The formal union of a man and a woman, typically recognized by law, by which they become husband and wife.
Also, most people get married in a church if you didn't know.
Also, you should be careful about calling Africans backwards. I'm sure they think people like you are backwards.

God has absolutely nothing to do with Government, they shouldn't be intertwined. What pledge? Are you talking about the morning school pledge? How many people do you know actually say the pledge when they're not in school. It's a tradition, nothing more. As far as the "Under God" piece, and the Constitution, the only reason why that's in there is because Christianity was the religion when the country was founded. I'm sure that if they believed in Satan, that we would be saying the same thing except with Satan instead of God.

Your definition of marriage is old and outdated. Like I said earlier, it's not written in stone and it's not set by nature, or by God. This is why it can (and should) be changed.

A lot of people get married in other places besides church. Beaches, piers, jungles, boats, etc. That isn't a valid argument.

I see the issue of choice has been running through the debate. Do gays choose to be gay or not?

Now suppose it was actually true that people can choose their sexuality. Would that change the situation?
We already protect the rights of minority religions (jews, muslims, etc) even though they could easily choose to convert to christianity, which is the majority religion in the US.
With our modern technology its possible to change people's skin colour, see Michael Jackson. Does this mean we should go back to racism against black people? Saying "you've effectively chosen to be black, why not get a skin change so you can be like the white majority".

The choice discussion is a red herring. Whichever way that point turns out, the anti-discrimination people still win.

From: Kyle Undefined
God has absolutely nothing to do with Government, they shouldn't be intertwined. What pledge? Are you talking about the morning school pledge? How many people do you know actually say the pledge when they're not in school. It's a tradition, nothing more. As far as the "Under God" piece, and the Constitution, the only reason why that's in there is because Christianity was the religion when the country was founded. I'm sure that if they believed in Satan, that we would be saying the same thing except with Satan instead of God.

Your definition of marriage is old and outdated. Like I said earlier, it's not written in stone and it's not set by nature, or by God. This is why it can (and should) be changed.

A lot of people get married in other places besides church. Beaches, piers, jungles, boats, etc. That isn't a valid argument.

Then please explain what you pledge on in the court? It doesn't matter if they say it out of school, they say it in it. Public schools = government funded, and therefore government property. And tradition can be an extremely strong bond. For example, people don't want to add Costa Rica to the U.S. because of tradition. They like having 50 stars on their flag, adding another state would make 51. Christianity is still the religion of this country, and it won't be changed to make a few gay's happy - until they complain about not having more rights. The definition is not old - most people still believe in it. You seem to think that you are the majority of the population…you are not.

Gays do chose to be gay. I think it's silly to even argue otherwise. They may have been influenced, but they chose it. Blacks did not chose to be blacks, whites did not chose to be whites, and there's nothing wrong with skin color. It's natural. There is something with changing your skin color, and P.S, Michael Jackson was pedophile, creepy, and dead.
Your whole paragraph makes absolutely no sense btw. Let me remind you, only parts of the world were racist against blacks. Being black is natural; it doesn't go against nature - being gay does.

Even though there are remains of religion in government, the point of separation of church and state is that you do not have to take part in them if you don't believe it. You are not required to say under god during the pledge, in fact if a teacher forces you to say under god during the pledge they will get sued/ most likely fired. As for the swearing in court, I want to say there is an alternative if you wish (but don't cite me). Gay marriage follows the same rules, if you don't wish to abide by the rules of god you don't have to. And be careful when you argue what is natural. Remember that at the time of slavery even though color is natural, it was accepted that blacks are naturally subservient to whites. When arguing ethics, most lose the definition of ethics. The point is to ignore your inclinations and even if something bothers you, truly try to figure out whether it is right or wrong. It is also concerned with challenging the status-quo. Religion does not have a good history in terms of treating people right. You never know, 200 years from now people opposed to gay marriage may be viewed as barbaric just as we view slave owners now.

From: dixienormous

Gays do chose to be gay. I think it's silly to even argue otherwise. They may have been influenced, but they chose it. Blacks did not chose to be blacks, whites did not chose to be whites, and there's nothing wrong with skin color. It's natural. There is something with changing your skin color, and P.S, Michael Jackson was pedophile, creepy, and dead.
Your whole paragraph makes absolutely no sense btw. Let me remind you, only parts of the world were racist against blacks. Being black is natural; it doesn't go against nature - being gay does.

So what would be the implications if gay people choose to be gay? I don't get how gays have chosen it leads to gays shouldn't be able to marry.

Michael Jackson being a pedophile and dead is actually irrelevant. What is relevant is that he changed the colour of his skin.
By putting "skin whitening" into google you can find hundreds of websites offering to sell you products to change your skin colour.
Couldn't we use your same reasoning and apply it to black people? Tell them they have to be discriminated against in employment. Its their own fault, we could say, they should just change to become white.

It's true that only some parts of the world were racist. One of these parts was the United States of America. Since this thread is about gay marriage in the US then its very relevant to compare homophobia with racism.

The argument from nature is quite interesting too. It goes that something is good because it is natural and something is bad because it is unnatural. There are a few problems with this.

We can see that the disease smallpox is natural yet bad. We wiped it out in 1980, this was a good thing, but unnatural.
Humans use radio transmissions to communicate voices. No animal has ever done this before the early 19th century. It is a very unnatural thing to do. Yet everyone can agree that radio is a good thing.

Also, it could be plausibly argued that homosexuality is natural because we see it in non-human animals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

The difference between humans and animals:
http://www.differencebetween.net/science/nature/difference-between-animals-and-humans/
You cannot compare a human to an animal. We are so far ahead of them it's unbelievable. Animals kill and eat each other - does that mean that we should do it to?

However, if a human chooses to kill someone (since this is about choices), he does not get the same rights that a normal human would get - he get's a few years behind bars with crappy food. That argument about black people changing to white is ludicrous. They were born black - your were born straight. If you changed from black to white that's creepy, and I as an employer would never hire that person (whereas I would have hired him as a black person).
Actually, it was mostly agricultural businessmen who were racist against blacks - many so called yeomen were against this. Also, the South was a tiny percentage of the population in the North which was against slavery.
Medicine is an interesting point, but in my opinion is is natural because the human body makes its own defenses against diseases. Many medicines also derive from natural sources like the rainforest or the sea. Medicine saves lives. If you can tell me something positive originating from you and another dude having butt-sex, please enlighten me.
Once again, you cannot compare humans to animals - just as you cannot compare humans to God. Also, it is extremely natural for a human to want to be as comfortable as possible, and technology gives humans this. Radio transmission saves tons of labor - is quicker, easier, less waiting, etc.

[QUOTE=

Also, it could be plausibly argued that homosexuality is natural because we see it in non-human animals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

Valid point, and to further that point, dixienormous, everything you've said is coming from a naturalists perspective, I suggest you look into natural law theory to find a greater scope on the issue, you will find a wealth of knowledge that I'm sure you will agree with, and some that may alter your reasoning, but I think you'll be glad to know (and this is based off of what I've gathered from you so far) that this philosophical perspective rooted itself in Christianity and would probably be a resource you would enjoy.

How many times do I have to say it lol? Humans are not animals. Here is a link you should read to understand why we are different then the common dog:
http://www.differencebetween.net/sci...ls-and-humans/
Wrong, my points come from a:
1. Natural
2. Biblical
3. Traditional
4. Moral
…..
10410. Brain
They are not listed in order of importance btw. Also, it is not known what causes homosexuality in animals. For all we know it could be some kind of bug, disease, lack of female species, or physical/mental mishap.
Gays have butt sex because of lust, not because of procreation. If this is allowed to go on, pedophilia will be next. Then what? You'll protect them for being "sensitive creatures" who were born this way (genetics) while telling me it occurs in nature (occasionally).

-"Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity."

id blame jagex for this

Males and females both have the same marriage rights and are both "equal" so I don't get why they protest "EQUAL RIGHTS". You have the same marriage rights as everyone else.

Dixienormous, my original post completely flamed you, and after a period of contemplation, I decided it was best to replace it. All I have to say now is simple. You are wrong, I'm not saying me and the others are right, but simply, you are wrong and your logic for attacking this issue is backward. My last argument is going to be this and I will put it in simple logic terms. If gay marriage promotes lustful sex and will lead to pedophilia, then the use of condoms, the majority of pre-marital sex, and even the majority of sex in general will lead to pedophilia. That argument is absurd. Every argument you have made would never hold in a legitimate intellectual debate and would be laughed at. If you want me to prove it to you, I will go through every single response of yours and point out the logical fallacies as to why they are wrong. None of these will be argued by my opinion nor the opinion of anyone else, just with simple logic. I suggest you ask me of this because as of now, anyone who knows their stuff in philosophy/ethics will not be able to take you seriously, with that being one of my majors, the same applies to me.

From: dixienormous
The difference between humans and animals:
http://www.differencebetween.net/science/nature/difference-between-animals-and-humans/
You cannot compare a human to an animal. We are so far ahead of them it's unbelievable. Animals kill and eat each other - does that mean that we should do it to?

The article you linked to stars by defining an animal as a living thing other than a human.
So logically its axiom is also its conclusion. This is circular reasoning, and it's wrong.

Just because we're far ahead of other animals doesn't mean we're not animals ourselves.
We evolved just like them. All life, including us, shares a common ancestor. Our bodies have DNA, brains, hearts, lungs, stomachs, livers, kidneys, etc etc just like other animals.

Animals rarely eat other animals from the same species, same as humans.
However animals do kill and eat other animals from different species. A lion kills and eats deer, for example. But look humans do that too! All our food comes from eating the bodies of other life forms. We kill beef and lamb to feed ourselves, for example.

From: dixienormous

However, if a human chooses to kill someone (since this is about choices), he does not get the same rights that a normal human would get - he get's a few years behind bars with crappy food.

They go to prison because society has decided that murder is a very bad thing.

Not all choices are bad. We can choose between between buying goods from two different merchants. Society has decided this is not only permissible, but should be encouraged!

If you accept that gay people have chosen to be gay, you still have to produce an argument for why that is a bad choice that society should punish. Since you used the prison example it sounds like you'd want to lock-up gay people everywhere.

From: dixienormous
That argument about black people changing to white is ludicrous. They were born black - your were born straight. If you changed from black to white that's creepy, and I as an employer would never hire that person (whereas I would have hired him as a black person).

Saying an argument is ludicrous doesn't make it so.
Being born black or white doesn't change the fact that skin whitening cream gives the choice to black people to become white if they want to.

In the 1960s when the black civil rights movement happened, people argued it was racist that interracial marriages were banned.
Using the same reasoning, racists could've argued that the black person should just use skin whitening cream to become white and marry their white partner. The racist would argue that black people had taken a choice of staying black.

How is this any different from your line of reasoning?

It doesn't matter what you'd do as an employer since we know you're a bigot anyway.


And what about religious minorities? Jews and muslims could easily decide to convert to Christianity in America. Does this mean we should discriminate against them because they are not part of the majority religion?

The point is that even if gay people chose to be gay, it still wouldn't justify discrimination against them.

From: dixienormous

Medicine is an interesting point, but in my opinion is is natural because the human body makes its own defenses against diseases. Many medicines also derive from natural sources like the rainforest or the sea. Medicine saves lives.

The body does make its own defences against disease, but we see often these defences fail which is why people died from smallpox and many other horrible diseases. It would be natural to just allow these people to die. It is unnatural when we use synthetic chemicals made in a laboratory to save their lives.

Some medicine does derive from natural sources, but quite a lot doesn't. If you're only going to allow medicine derived from natural sources you have to ban radiotherapy, chemotherapy, x-ray machines, MRI imaging, PET scans, CAT scans, etc etc

Medicine does save lives, but its still unnatural.

The point is you cannot argue that gay people are bad because they are unnatural. There are plenty of unnatural things that we say are good.

From: dixienormous

Once again, you cannot compare humans to animals - just as you cannot compare humans to God. Also, it is extremely natural for a human to want to be as comfortable as possible, and technology gives humans this. Radio transmission saves tons of labor - is quicker, easier, less waiting, etc.

You saying it doesn't make it true. I have used evidence earlier in this thread to show that humans are a kind of animal.
All animals, not just humans, desire to be as comfortable as possible. Observe how most animals will choose a warm place to sleep out of the rain.

The fact is that before the late 19th century, not a single animal in the 4 billion year history of life used radio waves to communicate. Therefore radio technology is unnatural. Yet we all say its good.

The point is that if you say gay people are bad because they are unnatural, you also have to say radio transmissions are also bad.

Homosexuality is a choice, you weren't born with it. It's almost a lifestyle if you ask me. If you do believe in god, and believe in the bible like myself, it states "man shall not lay with man". That's my religious beliefs that it is wrong. But, it is your choice in life how you choose to live. It also says in the bible every person in the word will get their chance to hear the gospel, some will chose to turn their backs on god, and some will follow him. What I don't understand is why do gays have to protest in the street for gay pride and what not. I don't see any straight people walking around with banners saying im straight look at me. It's all so in your face, it's your choice who you choose to be with in a relationship but do I need to see it on the news and in my face when i go shopping and there is a Gay pride march in my city? No. Some people will never believe in the bible and god, and those who turn their back will be left behind when the world ends. As for the rights you are claiming you don't have, these laws have been around way before homosexuality became as profound as it is today. Live by them and move on, I believe in equality but I am against homosexuality.

I also believe in equality, this is why I would like equal marriage rights for gay people too.
As the law stands now in many US states, marriage is only for straight people, this is discrimination.

I don't agree that its a choice, but let's suppose it is for a second. Even if it were a choice, it would still be bad that marriage is segregated like this. Even if it were a choice, we should still make marriage equal for all.

From: S7U
I don't see any straight people walking around with banners saying im straight look at me.

But you do have some straight people walking around with banners saying "Death to Fags"

Cannibalism is more widespread in animals then homosexuality:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism_%28zoology%29
I could just as easily say that you were a bigot (for gay rights), and who made this thread?
Animals are related to humans, just as humans were made in God's image. I never denied otherwise, but we have crucial abilities/things that they don't have; speech, conscience, soul, technology, etc. Technology is natural because it is natural for humans (and all animals) to seek the most comfortable existence they can have. A wolf will prefer a cave to a tree to shelter, and a human will prefer to talk via radiowaves then to walk 2 days to the next tribe and talk with the person.
Besides Michael Jackson, I've never heard of anyone who has ever changed his skin from white to black.
Join the club S7U, we're the lone defenders of decency it seems.
You chose to be gay, and being gay comes with no marriage. To me, this would be intruding on the straight peoples right - it's almost one of our only privileges over you - a sacred tradition - a symbol.

Ahh, I hate to pick and choose pieces of your argument but some animals do display conscience. It is proven that Elephants and dolphins and other animals are indeed self aware and meet the criteria for a conscience.

You just gave the argument away. "it is natural for humans to seek the most comfortable existence they can have." I'm sure most gays are most comfortable with being gay. And if it is natural to seek what is most comfortable, then it is natural to be gay if it makes you comfortable. I'm not saying this is right, I'm saying clarify your logic, but as of now that does not hold up.

From: Yakman
I also believe in equality, this is why I would like equal marriage rights for gay people too.
As the law stands now in many US states, marriage is only for straight people, this is discrimination.

I don't agree that its a choice, but let's suppose it is for a second. Even if it were a choice, it would still be bad that marriage is segregated like this. Even if it were a choice, we should still make marriage equal for all.

I'm sure most Christians also agree that gays and straights should have the same rights, the problem is calling it marriage.

The definition of marriage is a bond between a man and a woman, it makes no sense to have a gay marriage, it's illogical. Like having a square circle, it just doesn't make sense.

Conscience does not mean self aware. It means deciding between what is right and wrong. Some people think that some animals might have a conscience - but it has not been proven. Being gay is a artificial comfort - he couldn't get a women so he went after other dudes. Nature is fickle and many tributaries branch off of the river.

I think something that most can agree on is that there should be an equal union between those of the same sex as those of different. This union should be equivalent under the eyes of the law and society.

That would solve many issues.

From: josh81193
I'm sure most Christians also agree that gays and straights should have the same rights, the problem is calling it marriage.

The definition of marriage is a bond between a man and a woman, it makes no sense to have a gay marriage, it's illogical. Like having a square circle, it just doesn't make sense.

Actually that's not true. Definitions can change, as history and sociology show us.

In the past the definition of marriage was the union between members of the same race. Once it was also defined as union in the eyes of God, but now we see many people getting married outside of a church. In other parts of the world, marriage is defined as a union between one man and many women. And yes, in Massachusetts, Vermont and New York, marriage is defined as a union between two people regardless of their gender.

The definition comes from the Bible and Genesis (I don't think I had to point that out), but seeing as there are 3 or 4 different versions, the one we all know and 2 or 3 others that were found in the dead sea scrolls,which I can elaborate now if need be, I don't find that a truly reliable source.

Now, as for the definition of marriage, it has transformed into two meanings 1) being the union between a man and a woman recognized by god, and 2) whatever the law defines it as, which is simply put, two people legally joined together. The recognized by god is important, because that is definitely part of the religious definition, but what of athiests, atheists would fall under the same category as gays with the "not being recognized by god" or so I would think. If athiests are, then the argument becomes "can I not believe in god yet still receive the full benefits of him," which I don't care who you are that question is not being answered on earth. My main point of this is; the word marriage has become so common that it's definition has transformed, and although I realize the whole purpose of what you said was to not mis-define marriage, it already has been if you think of the number of people that really don't pay attention or care about the "recognized by god" part. Alot of people still get married in churches just because it's considered weird not to, sure there are some that do the whole "we are joined by god" thing, but alot of it is just a blind following of tradition.

The definition from Genesis is one man several women. We can see many male Genesis characters had a few wives.

From: dixienormous
Conscience does not mean self aware. It means deciding between what is right and wrong. Some people think that some animals might have a conscience - but it has not been proven. Being gay is a artificial comfort - he couldn't get a women so he went after other dudes. Nature is fickle and many tributaries branch off of the river.

Deciding right and wrong is morality, and a component encompassed by conscience, self-awareness is 100% part of a conscience, maybe not the entire make-up, but undoubtedly part of it. You cannot choose between what's right and what's wrong without self-awareness, because first, you have to be aware that you're making a choice. Although the debate over what is conscience has been going on between people much much smarter than you and I, so I don't see us solving the great question here.

As for artificial comfort, ALL TECHNOLOGY IS ARTIFICIAL COMFORT, which is what sparked the whole comfort thing. Some people have trouble concentrating, so they take a drug to help concentrate, some people can't hear, so they go get a fake hearing device to hear, some people can't brandish swords and teleport at a whim, so they play runescape. By the reasoning of gays being wrong because they find your definition of "artificial comfort" me playing runescape would be considered just as evil under the circumstances. Watch out for these loopholes man, you're killin me.

Technology may be artificial comfort -but your arguing this on only one level. Do the majority of people think that calling a friend on the telephone is wrong? No lol. The majority of people do think that being gay is wrong, that butt-sex is absolutely gross, and that gays should not have marriage. Marriage is something straight people hold sacred - it's a symbol, and for many it corresponds with God. It's sick that you would try to take that away just for some extra comfort/benefits.
And RuneScape is evil. It's an incredible waste of time - which is why I bot. I do not enjoy wasting my whole day chopping at a tree - teleporting or "branishing swords," and I wish I could take back the time I spent on it/never started playing it.
About medicine. It may not be "natural", but it is morally right to try to help someone in pain. Christ was a healer after all.

You know what I hate?
I hate if you have a good friend thats a male and you guys hang out together and do everything together, people start assuming that you guys are gay. See what happens when people start to throw out assumptions, these assumptions makes a person question his sexuality. These guys now might be like… oh ya maybe we are gay… when they really aren't.

From: kingarabian
You know what I hate?
I hate if you have a good friend thats a male and you guys hang out together and do everything together, people start assuming that you guys are gay. See what happens when people start to throw out assumptions, these assumptions makes a person question his sexuality. These guys now might be like… oh ya maybe we are gay… when they really aren't.

What's bad about that??

From: dixienormous
Technology may be artificial comfort -but your arguing this on only one level. Do the majority of people think that calling a friend on the telephone is wrong? No lol. The majority of people do think that being gay is wrong, that butt-sex is absolutely gross, and that gays should not have marriage. Marriage is something straight people hold sacred - it's a symbol, and for many it corresponds with God. It's sick that you would try to take that away just for some extra comfort/benefits.
And RuneScape is evil. It's an incredible waste of time - which is why I bot. I do not enjoy wasting my whole day chopping at a tree - teleporting or "branishing swords," and I wish I could take back the time I spent on it/never started playing it.
About medicine. It may not be "natural", but it is morally right to try to help someone in pain. Christ was a healer after all.

Far too many assumptions. I did not go to the level of what the majority thought because the majority is in no way shape or form a credible contributor. <–Bandwagon fallacy, doesn't work logically.Your assumption, "Marriage is something straight people hold sacred" I'm straight and I really don't care, the majority of my friends are straight and they really don't care either. Don't assume. You're getting sidetracked on the natural thing, this was about if it's natural it's ok. You said it's natural to find comfort, and then I said well gays find comfort in being gay so therefore it's natural, then you called in artificial comfort, and then I said medicine is artificial comfort, You keep changing the definition and altering it. If it is morally right to help someone in pain, what if that help relies on you being tolerant of gays. Again, what you're saying does not exclude gay marriage from anything. Example; Al and Bob are gay, they are happy, you are their neighbor and you have the final say whether they could get married, you say no, Al goes into severe depression, do help his pain, (by your logic) you are then required to let him marry to heal his pain. Christ was also a forgiver, in fact I'm fairly sure that is one of his biggest areas of expertise.

From: Yakman
I also believe in equality, this is why I would like equal marriage rights for gay people too.

http://villavu.com/forum/showpost.php?p=864872&postcount=373

From: Yakman
The definition from Genesis is one man several women. We can see many male Genesis characters had a few wives.

Cite some sources.

From: cycrosism
http://villavu.com/forum/showpost.php?p=864872&postcount=373

No they don't?

From: Harry
No they don't?

Except 4 taxes,
Who cares?

Why shouldn't they be allowed to get the tax break for loving each other that a man and woman are allowed to get?

From: Zyt3x
What's bad about that??

Adds to my personal belief people become gay when they really aren't.

From: footballjds
Except 4 taxes,
Who cares?

And other social services that do not recognize them (such as: social security benefits, being able to make hospital decisions when your spouse is unable to, discounted "family rates" for insurance, and many other legal accesses such as jail visits/hospital records/etc) … and taxes is a pretty big thing, don't you think?

Gay marriage should be allowed. Im straight and I fully support that. And if anyone does not like the fact that there are gays. GTFO.

From: footballjds

From: Yakman
The definition from Genesis is one man several women. We can see many male Genesis characters had a few wives.

Cite some sources.

Just one example is Genesis 29.
Jacob has two wives, Rachel and Leah.

Surely you're not surprised that the founders of your religion were bronze age primitives? They were said to have lived 4000 years ago. Society has progressed since then.

From: Yakman
Just one example is Genesis 29.
Jacob has two wives, Rachel and Leah.

Surely you're not surprised that the founders of your religion were bronze age primitives? They were said to have lived 4000 years ago. Society has progressed since then.

Lol? You'll have to do better then that. Jacob was the third patriarch of the Hebrew religion - that does not "define" marriage - it's absolutely foolish to classify the whole population by a one man. Society progressed? I don't think so. He may have had two wives, but what's the difference between having two wives or marrying one, divorcing her, then marrying another? - is that not having two wives? Celebrities do it all the time. Bronze age primitives? Your ignorance is insulting.
You may think that society is better, but that' just became you haven't been stoned to death yet (as gays would have in that time period). I personally think its otherwise. Society now is so artificial and diverse that it shouldn't even be called a society by its definition:
The community of people living in a particular region and having shared customs, laws, and organizations.
I definitely don't share the same customs or organizations with you, and according to your whining, or laws either.

"Gay marriage should be allowed. Im straight and I fully support that. And if anyone does not like the fact that there are gays. GTFO. "
-Cool story bro', but you forgot that the majority of the world's population would have to "GTFO."

"Far too many assumptions. I did not go to the level of what the majority thought because the majority is in no way shape or form a credible contributor. <–Bandwagon fallacy, doesn't work logically.Your assumption, "Marriage is something straight people hold sacred" I'm straight and I really don't care, the majority of my friends are straight and they really don't care either. Don't assume. You're getting sidetracked on the natural thing, this was about if it's natural it's ok. You said it's natural to find comfort, and then I said well gays find comfort in being gay so therefore it's natural, then you called in artificial comfort, and then I said medicine is artificial comfort, You keep changing the definition and altering it. If it is morally right to help someone in pain, what if that help relies on you being tolerant of gays. Again, what you're saying does not exclude gay marriage from anything. Example; Al and Bob are gay, they are happy, you are their neighbor and you have the final say whether they could get married, you say no, Al goes into severe depression, do help his pain, (by your logic) you are then required to let him marry to heal his pain. Christ was also a forgiver, in fact I'm fairly sure that is one of his biggest areas of expertise. "

-You choose friends based on what you have in common. Therefore your friends are similar to you. i.e. If you love football and the other kid doesn't, then you probably won't be friends; if you love gays then your friends probably do too - therefore your friends aren't credible in this argument.
Medicine is not an artificial comfort. It is a necessity. We need medicine to survive, just as we need oxygen to survive. Men and females have sex to survive, men and men do not have sex to survive. My dog eats grass when he feels sick to the stomach, then he throws up. This is a crude form of medicine, no?
Extreme contingencies like you just laid out are not plausible counterarguments. If Bob and Al were happily unmarried, then they can remain that. If they have to be married to be happy, then tbh, tough cookie/SOL. That whole argument was ludicrous btw lol. Bob and Al made their choice, but if they both wish to go straight, then sure, I'll forgive them (as long as it's an extremely honest effort and they are repentant). I'm not "required" to do anything. If I had a 8 year old daughter and some 90 year old pedophile wanted to marry her, and I said no, and he went into severe depression, then tbh I don't care about his happiness lol (how do you like these ridiculous contingencies?).
There's hundreds of ways to argue this. If Al was in severe pain then someone could easily end it with some medication, or with some therapy, or even with a bullet.
Homosexuality is a sickness. Your yachoman is acting as the disease, and you as a carrier.

From: Harry
And other social services that do not recognize them (such as: social security benefits, being able to make hospital decisions when your spouse is unable to, discounted "family rates" for insurance, and many other legal accesses such as jail visits/hospital records/etc) … and taxes is a pretty big thing, don't you think?

The majority of what you brought up is still obtainable through other methods outside a marriage.

From: Yakman
Just one example is Genesis 29.
Jacob has two wives, Rachel and Leah.

Surely you're not surprised that the founders of your religion were bronze age primitives? They were said to have lived 4000 years ago. Society has progressed since then.

"my religion"? I guess you're assuming i'm religious. Sorry to disappoint but i couldn't care less about religion at this point.
As far as Jacob having two wives. This does not prove that the "definition" of marriage was "one man multiple wives". :duh:

From: footballjds
The majority of what you brought up is still obtainable through other methods outside a marriage.

No… most states do not give civil partnership to homosexual couples (I think less than 10 states do, last time I checked?), and even then the liberties given to civil partnerships are not equal to that of marriage.

I could care less about gays. As long as gay people aren't affecting me somehow, I don't care. I know plenty of gays that are really cool people, and they never bring homosexuality up once.


However the concept of being gay… still thinking that through. Comparing the human body to Legos, homosexuality just doesn't fit! But as I said in the above paragraph, whatever, unless i get raped or something.

From: kingarabian
Adds to my personal belief people become gay when they really aren't.

If homosexuality is caused by genes then "becoming" gay is impossible, if homosexuality is by choice then why is it bad that they figure out what they are into?

From: Harry
No… most states do not give civil partnership to homosexual couples (I think less than 10 states do, last time I checked?), and even then the liberties given to civil partnerships are not equal to that of marriage.

A will can decide who gets your belongings upon death.
You can sign papers so that someone besides your next of kin has rights to make medical decisions for you. You can sign papers to change who gets your kids upon death or serious medical conditions. etc…

Almost every "right" that marriage grants is obtainable through a different avenue. The main "right" that isn't obtainable is tax related. Sure it may be more of a pain to be gay, but if you care enough you can get every "right", almost.

I find it incredibly stupid when someone claims that "People choose to be homosexuals."

That is BS. I am s straight male. I like females, not males. I do not choose this, it comes out automatically. It is that simple for homosexuals too.

And of course a gay can still choose to have sex with a female, the same way as a heterosexual can choose to have sex with a person of their own gender. In other words, you can still make love to something you are not attracted to. Some people confuse this as choosing your sexuality.

From: NotReligious
I find it incredibly stupid when someone claims that "People choose to be homosexuals."

That is BS. I am s straight male. I like females, not males. I do not choose this, it comes out automatically. It is that simple for homosexuals too.

And of course a gay can still choose to have sex with a female, the same way as a heterosexual can choose to have sex with a person of their own gender. In other words, you can still make love to something you are not attracted to. Some people confuse this as choosing your sexuality.

Show me a shred of evidence that it is not a choice.
Right now you're just making baseless claims. I could argue the exact opposite.
I think it's "incredibly stupid when someone claims that" being a homosexual is not a choice and that it's in your genetics. Prove me wrong, i wanna see evidence.

Here's one, http://www.physorg.com/news84720662.html

Will post more later when I have time.

From: Kyle Undefined
Here's one, http://www.physorg.com/news84720662.html

Will post more later when I have time.

Excerpt:
"During the past several decades, scientists have discovered some interesting patterns that may point toward genetic causes of homosexuality."

This is not proof as admitted by the author, rather science at it's best. I condone all research. However, we have no proof that orientation is governed by genes and not a choice you or I make which could be affected by an enormous number of events, people, lifestyle and upbringing.

These studies and others—while unable to point to a specific gene—do point to the idea that homosexuality may be inherited through a polymorphic gene, which is a gene that has more than one different form, and can exhibit either form. Studies have shown that this gene inheritance must be more complex than for common Mendelian traits.

Yes, it's not proven to be a gene that causes it, however studies show that the gene theory may be possible.

From: Kyle Undefined
Yes, it's not proven to be a gene that causes it, however studies show that the gene theory may be possible.

Yes, although I differ on opinion with you. There is definitely patterns with homosexuals.
One such pattern is the number of older brothers.

Something I'd like to point out though is that patterns could mean nothing. For instance, according to insure.come(I'll include link) the most dangerous beverage while driving a vehicle is coffee. Now, is coffee really "dangerous". No, I think that we can all agree it is as "dangerous" as hot chocolate or a cup of tea. However, because of the vast number of people drinking coffee it is a way more commonly the beverage that is accused of distracting the diver. Coffee isn't more dangerous, but the statistics do not lie. If you drink coffee instead of milk while driving you don't really lessen your chances of an accident do you?
In my opinion no. I believe statistics should be viewed objectively and un-biasedly. Look at what they tell you as opposed to what you can make them look like.
http://www.insure.com/car-insurance/driver-distractions.html



I was simply challenging NotReligious to backup a claim he made.

From: footballjds
Show me a shred of evidence that it is not a choice.
Right now you're just making baseless claims. I could argue the exact opposite.
I think it's "incredibly stupid when someone claims that" being a homosexual is not a choice and that it's in your genetics. Prove me wrong, i wanna see evidence.

Oh. So you missed the part where I stated that I can not choose my sexuality (as in I simply have no way to effect it), and as we are all humans it should apply for everyone too. Of course this is assuming that we are all humans.

Tell me, how do I spontaneously turn gay? Do I wake up one day, and say to myself; "You know I want to turn homosexual."

From: NotReligious
I find it incredibly stupid when someone claims that "People choose to be homosexuals."

That is BS. I am s straight male. I like females, not males. I do not choose this, it comes out automatically. It is that simple for homosexuals too.

And of course a gay can still choose to have sex with a female, the same way as a heterosexual can choose to have sex with a person of their own gender. In other words, you can still make love to something you are not attracted to. Some people confuse this as choosing your sexuality.

So just because YOU feel like you can't choose to be homosexual makes this a fact? And you ball other people stupid…?

I'm straight too, but I still think this is by choice.

From: NotReligious
Tell me, how do I spontaneously turn gay? Do I wake up one day, and say to myself; "You know I want to turn homosexual."

I've never mentioned being straight is a choice. That's an ENTIRELY different debate.

Oh. So you missed the part where I stated that I can not choose my sexuality (as in I simply have no way effecting it), and as we are all humans it should apply for everyone too.

I missed nothing. I read the entirety of the post. It was you balking at the fact that people say being homosexual is a choice. You said that it is, "complete bs". If something is complete bull shit and you know that, why can you not provide any evidence of such a claim?

Of course this is assuming that we are all humans.

I believe it's a safe assumption to assume to that we're all humans…

From: Zyt3x
So just because YOU feel like you can't choose to be homosexual makes this a fact? And you ball other people stupid…?

I'm straight too, but I still think this is by choice.

I'm straight, I choose to have sex with girls instead of guys.
I choose to look at naked girls instead of guys.
I choose to hangout with girls when im horny.
I choose to stick my dick inside of girls.
I choose to stick my dick inside female ass and vagina.
I still can honestly answer questions about guys. I can tell if a guy is "hot" or ugly. I just choose to be straight.

From: Zyt3x
So just because YOU feel like you can't choose to be homosexual makes this a fact? And you ball other people stupid…?

I'm straight too, but I still think this is by choice.

Well maybe I was too harsh. Actually there is no denying it, I was too harsh, one should always debate calmly. (I don't think I called anyone stupid though)

But honestly tell me, do you choose your sexuality? Do you always need to think "I like girls, I like girls, I like girls.." when you are sexually aroused.. If not, how can you disagree with me? :confused:

From: NotReligious
Well maybe I was too harsh. Actually there is no denying it, I was too harsh, one should always debate calmly. (I don't think I called anyone stupid though)

But honestly tell me, do you choose your sexuality? Do you always need to think "I like girls, I like girls, I like girls.." when you are sexually aroused.. If not, how can you disagree with me? :confused:

No, I do not constantly go around thinking like that, I do actually never do that, but I do believe I can choose my sexuality, just like I believe one can choose anything other that is psychological.

From: footballjds
I've never mentioned being straight is a choice. That's an ENTIRELY different debate.

Ah. So you assume that everyone is straight, and some for whatever reason choose to be gay? … That does not seem to compute?

At least I think this is want you meant..

(Because if you assume being straight is not a choice, but homosexuality is then everyone has to be straight according to that logic..right?)

From: footballjds
I missed nothing. I read the entirety of the post. It was you balking at the fact that people say being homosexual is a choice. You said that it is, "complete bs". If something is complete bull shit and you know that, why can you not provide any evidence of such a claim?

See my reply above.

From: footballjds
I believe it's a safe assumption to assume to that we're all humans…

Good. :p

From: footballjds
I'm straight, I choose to have sex with girls instead of guys.
I choose to look at naked girls instead of guys.
I choose to hangout with girls when im horny.
I choose to stick my dick inside of girls.
I choose to stick my dick inside female ass and vagina.
I still can honestly answer questions about guys. I can tell if a guy is "hot" or ugly. I just choose to be straight.

This is the logical fallacy I gave an example of. You could choose to do all of those things with the same gender, you just would not be aroused.

So having sex with the opposite gender, does not make you straight. Being aroused by the opposite sex does.

From: NotReligious
But honestly tell me, do you choose your sexuality? Do you always need to think "I like girls, I like girls, I like girls.." when you are sexually aroused.. If not, how can you disagree with me? :confused:

There's an old saying:
"You cannot prevent a bird from flying over head but you can stop it before it builds a nest in your hair."

This is drawing a parallel with mental cognitivity. One cannot "disable" or "turn off" certain thoughts. For instance, if I hear a certain song it immediately brings back memories of a specific girl I would love to forget about.
Can I force myself to never again remember her? No.
I can however change the song, start a different activity, call a friend, eat ice cream, or any other number of things to prevent myself from dwelling on it.
I can't prevent myself from thinking about it, but I sure as hell can not act out on it and I can do my absolute best to change the course of thought.

From: Zyt3x
No, I do not constantly go around thinking like that, I do actually never do that, but I do believe I can choose my sexuality, just like I believe one can choose anything other that is psychological.

I just don't understand how you can think that sexuality is a choice, but you just never had to choose? :confused:

Please explain?

From: footballjds
There's an old saying:
"You cannot prevent a bird from flying over head but you can stop it before it builds a nest in your hair."

This is drawing a parallel with mental cognitivity. One cannot "disable" or "turn off" certain thoughts. For instance, if I hear a certain song it immediately brings back memories of a specific girl I would love to forget about.
Can I force myself to never again remember her? No.
I can however change the song, start a different activity, call a friend, eat ice cream, or any other number of things to prevent myself from dwelling on it.
I can't prevent myself from thinking about it, but I sure as hell can not act out on it and I can do my absolute best to change the course of thought.

Now you are talking about not committing the act of homosexuality, which is entirely different from being homosexual.

From: NotReligious
This is the logical fallacy I gave an example of. You could choose to do all of those things with the same gender, you just would not be aroused.

So having sex with the opposite gender, does not make you straight. Being aroused by the opposite sex does.

If i listened to what you're saying then i guess i'm bisexual even though i like girls and have sex with girls.
I'm a horny 18 year old. Anything naked(within reason…) in any movie will "arouse" me.

EDIT
See the big EDIT button? Please use that in the future. Double posting is against the forum rules.

From: footballjds
If i listened to what you're saying then i guess i'm bisexual even though i like girls and have sex with girls.
I'm a horny 18 year old. Anything naked(within reason…) in any movie will "arouse" me.

EDIT
See the big EDIT button? Please use that in the future. Double posting is against the forum rules.

If you are aroused by males and females, then by definition that makes you bisexual. You can still choose to not have sex with males of course, but that wont change your bisexuality.

And about the edit button, thanks for telling me and ok. PS. I meant thanks for telling me that double posts are against the rules.

EDIT; If you saw my epicly badly placed "female" (before editing) then please ignore it. D:

From: NotReligious
If you are aroused by males and females, then by definition that makes you female.

Okay, I'll stop debating with you because it's obvious you require a few more years of character development, maturity, and cognitive abilities.
Unless of course you're just trolling. Which i don't suggest as this thread will just be closed. AGAIN.

Now I'm a female.:duh::duh:
Let me ask my dick what it thinks of that real quick and get back to you…

EDIT
My dick refuses to accept what you said as the truth.
My dick looked up the definition of female and realized that it has nothing to do with what arouses you but rather what gender you are.
My dick has had an epiphany, thank you.

EDIT2
You've found the edit button, congrats. I guess you had a pretty bad typo… You can ignore what you want^^ :P

EDIT: 3
After reading your amended post my dick still refuses to conform to your opinion and refuses to be deemed "bisexual".

From: footballjds
EDIT: 3
After reading your amended post my dick still refuses to conform to your opinion and refuses to be deemed "bisexual".

EDIT2;

Now you confuse me. You said that you are attracted by all nudity in films, (apparently male or female, which I even asked you) now you say that you are not attracted by males.

So which is it?