SRL Archive - Discussions & Debates

This has gotten me quite infuriated recently. Everywhere I look people say the middle-east is a blob of terrorists countries determined to wipe out the United States. From what I know though, it's only the extremists who think that all not-Muslims should die for not being Muslim. But hey, it's not like Bush or anyone would kill them for not being Christian, right?

So anyway, what are your thoughts, mainly on Terrorists vs. USA? Facts/sources are good to have.

(Also, this thread has nothing to do with Obama. He has Muslim names, not a big deal. My last name is German; it doesn't mean I'm a Nazi.)

[stupid-ness] OMG! The Nazis are working with the terrorists now! [/stupid]

Anyway. I do not believe that all Muslims are terrorists, that is just silly. Also, I don't think it's really Terrorists vs. USA, its just kinda Terrorists vs. everything they think is against their religion. Or something like that.

There seem to be quite a few radicals, hence people generally not trusting Muslims.

From: bullzeye95
There seem to be quite a few radicals, hence people generally not trusting Muslims.

I agree with this, personally though i believe in profiling. Nothing personal but if there are a lot of tall blonde hair,blue eyed, slender, teenage boys trying to blow up stuff then i wouldnt mind being specifically checked. Although to be honest i have always gotten angry when people havent given me respect because of my age ect, but that is a little different matter. =/

I agree with you Widget. Just because a few people from a religion are terrorists doesn't mean they all are. Look at the Spanish Inquesition and the crusades. They were terroists but we don't think of it that way because they killed people we have been taught to hate. They were basically Nazis but they killed Muslims.

Sure terroism is bad. But what they are doing now is self defence. Why? Because the stupid government of the United States has to go to war in a highly conflicted area over highly conflicted reasons.

If our two societies could just seperate ourselves from eachother we could all live in peace without having to think "Those Satan worshiping bastard Muslims" or "F*ing Infidel". We should leave Iraq and only deal with the Middle East for oil.

From: Aser
I agree with you Widget. Just because a few people from a religion are terrorists doesn't mean they all are. Look at the Spanish Inquesition and the crusades. They were terroists but we don't think of it that way because they killed people we have been taught to hate. They were basically Nazis but they killed Muslims.

Sure terroism is bad. But what they are doing now is self defence. Why? Because the stupid government of the United States has to go to war in a highly conflicted area over highly conflicted reasons.

If our two societies could just seperate ourselves from eachother we could all live in peace without having to think "Those Satan worshiping bastard Muslims" or "F*ing Infidel". We should leave Iraq and only deal with the Middle East for oil.

lol? Are you trying to blame the US for september 11th? I explain this over and over again… The first attack on the WTC happened in 1993. Guess what, that was in the Clinton days, and he let Osama go, twice. They attacked us, in OUR self defense we are eliminating the people who proclaim that they want to do the citizens of the US harm. So they did us harm, we went after them and said that anyone who harbored terrorists or wanted to harm the US we would take out. We did exactly that, Saddam Hussein had been ignoring UN sanctions, not letting the UN search in some places. So he was a man in question acting like he had something to hide, we had intel from, guess who? Colin Powell, saying that there was reason to believe he had WMD's. So he posed a threat to the US and acted like there was something to hide. That is how this whole Iraq situation started. The people of Iraq were not better off without us, Saddam had run the economy into the ground (he effectively had a dictatorship-socialist gov). So the people WILL be better off and we are making sure of that, let our soldiers do their job.

A 13 year old girl just blew herself up and killed a bunch of people in Iraq. Do you think that was a rational act?

Iraq is a democracy now. Do you see Americans going around being suicide bombers and blowing up buses, cafes, or marketplaces because they don't agree with the government or the last election?

Nothing the US is doing now justifies that behavior. You trying to say that Bush is haphazardly killing Muslims because they aren't Christian is ridiculous. How do you expect to have a debate when you start with such a ridiculous argument?

The US has gone out of their way to avoid targeting religious buildings if at all possible, while many of the terrorists either bomb shrines themselves to inflame sectarian hatreds, or hide in mosques as they fire weapons on US troops.

Terrorists have no line they will not cross. They use children as suicide bombers and human shields. They hold meetings in villages so that if there is an attack there are many civilian casualties. They have used mentally retarded people as suicide bombers. They have lied to people to make them think they were only making a delivery and then blew up the person and the cargo once they reached the destination. They have no morals whatsoever. If they had a nuclear weapon, they would use it as soon as possible and kill as many infidels as they could.

There's no similarity whatsoever, except perhaps in your own mind.

i think we should get rid of all religion to take away a weapon from the terrorists.


at least make people aware that blind faith is dangerous.



by the way, dont you think terrorists are just a code-word these days,
like in the 1980s, "Law and Order" was a code word for anti-black prejudists.
and "communism" was a code word for "Russians"

i get the feeling american politicians will just say "Terrorists" when they need to get the public on their side.

"I need a new boat", "why?", "terrorists!", "OMG HERE YOU GO!"

"we should go invade iraq", "why?", "osama bin laden", "surely hes in afganistan?", "HES A TERRORIST!", "OMG LETS GO!!"

It's not that most Muslims are terrorists, it's that most terrorists are Muslims. There's a big difference in that. However, one publicized case of a Muslim being a terrorist sticks in your mind and you begin to forget that 1 out of a million does not justify the stereotype. But you don't hear about any good Muslims on the news so you begin to associate all Muslims as being bad.

From: Yakman
i think we should get rid of all religion to take away a weapon from the terrorists.

How do you suppose we go about doing that? :rolleyes:

From: bullzeye95
How do you suppose we go about doing that? :rolleyes:

Easy. Make government the new religion. Instead of worshiping God, you worship the gov't.

God doesn't grant you rights, the government does. God doesn't decide whether you live or die, the gov't does. God doesn't give you your daily bread, gov't does. God doesn't keep you safe from harm, the gov't does. God doesn't provide a framework for acceptable behavior, the gov't does.

Kind of like affirmative action seeks to end discrimination by institutionalizing it and making it part of the law. The only way to eliminate the influence of religion in government and the world is to make the government the one and only true religion.

From: tarajunky
Easy. Make government the new religion. Instead of worshiping God, you worship the gov't.

God doesn't grant you rights, the government does. God doesn't decide whether you live or die, the gov't does. God doesn't give you your daily bread, gov't does. God doesn't keep you safe from harm, the gov't does. God doesn't provide a framework for acceptable behavior, the gov't does.

Kind of like affirmative action seeks to end discrimination by institutionalizing it and making it part of the law. The only way to eliminate the influence of religion in government and the world is to make the government the one and only true religion.

Not to be disrespectful or anything…but thats just plain stupid

Anywho I think after 9/11 all arabs/muslims will be considered as some kind of terrorist. I also believe the 9/11 attacks happened; just to disgrace the arabs in the middle east. Funny thing is that osama is from afghanistan and not an arab.

From: tarajunky
Easy. Make government the new religion. Instead of worshiping God, you worship the gov't.

God doesn't grant you rights, the government does. God doesn't decide whether you live or die, the gov't does. God doesn't give you your daily bread, gov't does. God doesn't keep you safe from harm, the gov't does. God doesn't provide a framework for acceptable behavior, the gov't does.

Kind of like affirmative action seeks to end discrimination by institutionalizing it and making it part of the law. The only way to eliminate the influence of religion in government and the world is to make the government the one and only true religion.

Too bad government and religion are already intermixed. Since they do not stand alone you cannot substitute one for the other. How can government replace religion when government is based heavily on religion as it is now, despite what our constitution says.

From: kingarabian
Not to be disrespectful or anything…but thats just plain stupid

Anywho I think after 9/11 all arabs/muslims will be considered as some kind of terrorist. I also believe the 9/11 attacks happened; just to disgrace the arabs in the middle east. Funny thing is that osama is from afghanistan and not an arab.

It would be more effective for keeping the peace than the current system. It is obvious that religion is just making the world a worse place. Religion is the stem of most of the problems in todays world.

We should make religion something that you keep to yourself. Nobody else wants to be subjugated to your views anyway. Maybe I want to live one day of my life without being told I will go to hell. Maybe if people would realize that, we wouldn't have as many problems.

A Muslim couldn't kill a Christian because they wouldn't know. A Christian couldn't blame everything on a Muslim because they wouldn't know if it was a Muslim or not. It would just be another person.

From: Aser
It would be more effective for keeping the peace than the current system. It is obvious that religion is just making the world a worse place. Religion is the stem of most of the problems in todays world.

We should make religion something that you keep to yourself. Nobody else wants to be subjugated to your views anyway. Maybe I want to live one day of my life without being told I will go to hell. Maybe if people would realize that, we wouldn't have as many problems.

A Muslim couldn't kill a Christian because they wouldn't know. A Christian couldn't blame everything on a Muslim because they wouldn't know if it was a Muslim or not. It would just be another person.

Well when you see someone in a turban walking in on your airplane, you don't have to ask what religion he practices, you just know he's middle eastern and you assume he's a terrorist.

Your ideas of getting rid of religion are utopian and will never come true. America is already supposed to be a land free from religious persecution, etc, yet we continue to base our laws on religion. Why is abortion such a big issue? It conflicts with people's religion so they want to make a law regarding abortion based on THEIR religion (ignoring the fact that not everyone believes in their religion). Why was same-sex marriage banned in California? Because it's against their religious definition of marriage (even though not everyone follows that religious definition). We will never completely separate religion and politics.

It seems to work fine in North Korea and in China. You don't worship God, you worship the Dear Leader.

Maybe Obama can be America's first Dear Leader…

From: tarajunky
It seems to work fine in North Korea and in China. You don't worship God, you worship the Dear Leader.

Maybe Obama can be America's first Dear Leader…

It seems like you are being sarcastic but I think it would be better to worship a leader than to have religious warfare and prejudice all the time.

Okay kids! Time for the inappropriate ontopic humour corner with n3ss3s!

http://brb72virgins.ytmnd.com/

The Websense category "Entertainment" is filtered.

Must actually be humorous and something that could contribute to my life. Seriously Websense only blocks things I would be benefited by reading. I guess I'll read it when I get home.

Just one question: How many total "terrorist" attacks has the U. S. had?

Gosh, TERRORISTS ARE SIMPLY SOMEONE WHO OPPOSES AMERICA IN A WAY THEY DO NOT LIKE !!

Americans to get into their heads, they are the only true source of terror in this world ><

From: lakerzz8
Well when you see someone in a turban walking in on your airplane, you don't have to ask what religion he practices, you just know he's middle eastern and you assume he's a terrorist.

Your ideas of getting rid of religion are utopian and will never come true. America is already supposed to be a land free from religious persecution, etc, yet we continue to base our laws on religion. Why is abortion such a big issue? It conflicts with people's religion so they want to make a law regarding abortion based on THEIR religion (ignoring the fact that not everyone believes in their religion). Why was same-sex marriage banned in California? Because it's against their religious definition of marriage (even though not everyone follows that religious definition). We will never completely separate religion and politics.

Thats not true actually, and i prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt when on airplanes, sure i watch him carefully, but its not like im gonna say he is a terrorist and jump on him and beat the crap outta him…

That isnt why abortion is a big issue. It is murduring future-people, thats why it is such a big deal.

Same sex marriage is banned because the definition of marriage as far as the law is concerned is between a man and a woman. While it does go against my religion, that is not the only reason i do not support it…

also… it does not ban gay people from being gay… it just doesn't let them call their union a marriage. IMO i think they should just change the name of their union to something else… cuz that would circumvent the constitional amendment, plus they would stop rioting agains't my church(mormons). that really pisses me off cuz mormons weren't the only ones who supported prop 8(california) and prop 102(arizona). it also pisses me off that the cops didn't do anything during the protests… but that is a different topic

From: Firebrand
Gosh, TERRORISTS ARE SIMPLY SOMEONE WHO OPPOSES AMERICA IN A WAY THEY DO NOT LIKE !!

Americans to get into their heads, they are the only true source of terror in this world ><

I do agree that the U.S. does arbitrarily decide who they consider a terrorist. But the U.S. is not the only source of terror in the world. There are a lot of bad people in the world and not all of them are in America.

…

The only reason that the law says that marriage is between a man and a woman though is because of what religion defines it as thus bringing religion into contact with the law which it should not be. I don't see what the big deal is with gay marriage. It's not like they are hurting you. If you seriously think that someone doesn't have a right to happiness just because they are different, then you need to grow up and stop acting like a little f***. (That wasn't directed at anyone in particular, just people who need to see that they are not the only people in the world)

mormonman

The problem with them not calling it marriage is that they then do not have the same rights as a married couple would have. Stuff like insurance won't allow them on the same policy. They can't be benefactors in some cases ect.

California already has civil unions that give pretty much ever benefit that a marriage would.

Besides, the reality is that society already restricts marriage quite a lot. You can't marry your sister. Why not? Doesn't the 14th Amendment apply to siblings as well? Are they second class citizens?

Ultimately the government has said repeatedly that marriage is between a man and a woman. It's a gender dependent phenomenon. The government discriminates on the basis of gender all the time. There are different restrooms and gyms and showers for men and women in government buildings, and in the military. Men and women sleep in different barracks. Only men are required to sign up for the draft, while women are excused. All "gender discrimination" that nobody complains about because it "makes sense". The fundamental biological differences between males and females justify it, just as it does for marriage law.

And one thing that NO state or government has ever mandated is that people that get married have to "love" each other. So "love" or "happiness" aren't even a consideration.

From: sirlaughsalot
Thats not true actually, and i prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt when on airplanes, sure i watch him carefully, but its not like im gonna say he is a terrorist and jump on him and beat the crap outta him…

That isnt why abortion is a big issue. It is murduring future-people, thats why it is such a big deal.

Same sex marriage is banned because the definition of marriage as far as the law is concerned is between a man and a woman. While it does go against my religion, that is not the only reason i do not support it…

Exactly. You watch him carefully. Obviously you won't go around beating up every person in a turban, that would be plain stupid and if you got that impression from my words, please read them again. Watching someone more closely than someone else without any reason but their appearance, skin color, etc is exactly what I was talking about.

Yes, abortion is murdering FUTURE people. Someone that is not a person yet. There are many cases where mothers die during labor, where women are raped, where a baby that is born would live a horrible life in foster homes or will just be dumped in the trash. Or worse yet, if abortion becomes illegal then women will be forced to head to dirty black-market clinics to get their abortions done instead of in a safe hospital. No law can tell what a woman to do with her body and there is nothing more personal than a woman's decision to keep a baby or not. Pregnancy doesn't last 1 day, it lasts for NINE MONTHS!!

Exactly. And who defined marriage? Where does the definition of marriage come from? Why religion of course! Does US have the freedom of religion? Sure. But we still let religion influence our politics very heavily because there will probably never be true separation of church and state. If it going against your religion is not the only reason why you are against it, please list a few more reasons why legally defining gay people as married affects your life.

From: tarajunky
California already has civil unions that give pretty much ever benefit that a marriage would.

Besides, the reality is that society already restricts marriage quite a lot. You can't marry your sister. Why not? Doesn't the 14th Amendment apply to siblings as well? Are they second class citizens?

Ultimately the government has said repeatedly that marriage is between a man and a woman. It's a gender dependent phenomenon. The government discriminates on the basis of gender all the time. There are different restrooms and gyms and showers for men and women in government buildings, and in the military. Men and women sleep in different barracks. Only men are required to sign up for the draft, while women are excused. All "gender discrimination" that nobody complains about because it "makes sense". The fundamental biological differences between males and females justify it, just as it does for marriage law.

And one thing that NO state or government has ever mandated is that people that get married have to "love" each other. So "love" or "happiness" aren't even a consideration.

Are you really comparing gay marriage to incest and public bathrooms? I mean come on.

Public bathrooms are gender "discriminated" because women would prefer not to have men watching them while they are taking a crap and men would prefer women not looking when they are taking a piss. It's like saying wearing clothes restricts your freedom of expression. Sure, it does, but you can't be serious about saying clothes are unconstitutional and bathrooms are gender discriminators. Again, sleeping in barracks, showering. These are all personal things that people prefer to do alone or at the very least with people of their gender because watching the opposite gender is just not right. As defined by the values of society and nothing to do with religion, as gay marriage is. And the fact that only men are need to sign up for a draft is outdated. There was a time when women couldn't be in the military at all. Slowly things are changing. And not everyone says "it makes sense" because there are women still fighting to this day to achieve complete equality in the armed forces. So, you're completely wrong in that.

And incest is taboo in almost every culture worldwide and I guarantee you it would be the same whether religion had its say in politics or not. However, gay marriage would not be a problem were it not for religion and ignorance.

From: lakerzz8
Exactly. You watch him carefully. Obviously you won't go around beating up every person in a turban, that would be plain stupid and if you got that impression from my words, please read them again. Watching someone more closely than someone else without any reason but their appearance, skin color, etc is exactly what I was talking about.

Yes, abortion is murdering FUTURE people. Someone that is not a person yet. There are many cases where mothers die during labor, where women are raped, where a baby that is born would live a horrible life in foster homes or will just be dumped in the trash. Or worse yet, if abortion becomes illegal then women will be forced to head to dirty black-market clinics to get their abortions done instead of in a safe hospital. No law can tell what a woman to do with her body and there is nothing more personal than a woman's decision to keep a baby or not. Pregnancy doesn't last 1 day, it lasts for NINE MONTHS!!

Exactly. And who defined marriage? Where does the definition of marriage come from? Why religion of course! Does US have the freedom of religion? Sure. But we still let religion influence our politics very heavily because there will probably never be true separation of church and state. If it going against your religion is not the only reason why you are against it, please list a few more reasons why legally defining gay people as married affects your life.

You implied at least, that people hate middle eastern people. When that just isnt true. I may be cautious but I dont hate them, and really i am pretty cautious of anyone on an airplane, if I see someone get up and go towards the front I keep a close eye on them until they sit down.

Why are babies treated as objects? A fetus is a living, growing organism, another being that will be seperate from the mother in a very short amount of time. Why is it okay for a mother to kill a person just because that person is inside of her and cannot survive on his or her own? Why, when someone murders a pregnant woman, they are charged with 2 counts of murder, but a woman it is justified? A mother cannot kill her baby when it is outside of the womb, but still cannot take care of itself, but can when a baby is in the womb? Women wont be "forced" to do anything, a woman does not have to take care of the baby herself, I have said this many times, adoption is a viable option for anyone, when a woman is pregnant she can set it up with the adoption agency. There are lots of people who are unable to have children at all, who would give just about anything to have the ability to have children, and you basically mock them by killing a child that could have been theirs. Also rape victims getting pregnant is a very very low percentage. But i will address it anyways, one of my 2nd cousin-in-laws? (my cousins' husbands sister i believe) was a rape victim who got pregnant, and still had the child. The boy has some troubles (acting out ect) he will have to overcome, but everyone has something in their life that bothers them at some point in time, and no matter how she had that child she still loves him and will raise him to the best of her ability.


I would say we have a pretty strict "seperation of church and state" policy, when that in fact is unconstitutional. Please point me to somewhere in the constitution that it says "seperation of church and state". While i dont believe that the state should control the church or vice-versa, creationism isnt even mentioned in the schools here in Texas, and right now people are trying to pass legislation to allow the faults of evolution to be taught but are being opposed. If you are going to teach one side of the debate, teach the other. Evolution has been disguised as "science" when it has taken the form of some kind of religion, because you have to believe that these millions of years of evolution have taken place when it is simply all speculation. I dont understand how we have let religion effect our politics, most of the values we have, stem from religion and have shaped society in general, the ten commandments more specifically.

I agree with sirlaughsalot. Pilgrims originally came to the Americas to get freedom of religion. Then the nation was founded "under god". I don't know how long ago it was, or where it was at, but I remember hearing about a state building having to take the Ten Commandments off of their wall or something. That is just ridiculous because those are normal humanity rules.(except for the no other gods and Lord's name in vain stuff). I can't believe that some people like lakerzz are saying that abortion is a personal choice. It is a woman choosing if she should kill a growing organism or not. I believe that if something has the potential to do something such as become a human, killing it is the same as murdering a full grown human. Everyone deserves a chance to live.

Just had to put in my say on this heated subject. Sorry if I have offended anyone.

If "some" discrimination is okay, then why not let society decide? Why have a court decide so narrowly instead of wide, sweeping ruling on principle that says ALL person of legal age can marry anyone else, in any number of marriage contracts they wish?

It's either "everything goes", or the courts should butt out and let society set their own rules based on their own moral compass.

Personally, I think those who want "equality" for themselves, and then slam the door in other people's faces are the biggest hypocrites of anyone out there.

this is what i find very ironic.

America was founded for religious freedom, and yet theres this controversial thoughts that religion is too powerful. It is the only country that a strong, active creationist lobby. The word "liberal" is used as an insult.

UK and Netherlands have had monarchies for a thousand years, in the UK there is the official Church of England. And yet these countries are one of the most secular in the world.

From: xXxBlender3DxXx
Just one question: How many total "terrorist" attacks has the U. S. had?

And Why?

From: Yakman
this is what i find very ironic.

America was founded for religious freedom, and yet theres this controversial thoughts that religion is too powerful. It is the only country that a strong, active creationist lobby. The word "liberal" is used as an insult.

UK and Netherlands have had monarchies for a thousand years, in the UK there is the official Church of England. And yet these countries are one of the most secular in the world.

If the creationist lobby were so powerful, there would be creationism taught in schools. "liberal" is not longer an insult, what do you think Obama is? He is as left as it gets, i hope i eat these words, but, during the Obama presidency there will be more economic decay. You see the reason the stock market is STILL going down, is people are prepping for an Obama presidency; they are jumping ship now when they still can get 50 or 60 cents on the dollar…

From: sirlaughsalot
If the creationist lobby were so powerful, there would be creationism taught in schools.

no there wouldnt, because its not powerful enough

In no other countries is teaching creationism even considered, because whoever brings it up doesnt get taken seriously.


Just because a lobby exists, doesnt mean its ends are met, for example, there is a powerful Israeli lobby in America, yet Palastine still exists.

From: sirlaughsalot
"liberal" is not longer an insult,

why does this site still use it?

EDIT: you contradict yourself sirlaughsalot

From: sirlaughsalot
How? It is a beautiful system that protects the less populated areas (to some degree) and the populated area still has power.

I tell you what system is "phail" is the primaries, im sick of this east coast liberal bullshit, it shouldnt have been McCain in the first place, he is a good man and i supported hiim but only because i really had to, but i did agree on a lot of issues. He isnt who the "base" of the republican party wanted so all of the more liberal republicans chose him. But whatever, now its time to take the house or senate in 2010 :p , congrats Obama.

owned, kthxbye :D

END EDIT

From: sirlaughsalot
what do you think Obama is? He is as left as it gets,

i disagree, Obama is more right wing then the British Conservative Party.

perhaps you meant "He is as left as it gets in american politics" which is slightly more believable


I'll have you know, theres no way you can fix 10 years worth of rot overnight.
whatever happened with the market was going to happen anyway.
The ship is sinking, it doesnt matter who's at the helm now.



But anyway, the real reason i posted in this thread was to bring up another thing, which by coincidence was also posted by sirlaughsalot

From: sirlaughsalot
That isnt why abortion is a big issue. It is murduring future-people, thats why it is such a big deal..

by your logic, if a women declines an offer for sex, she is murdering a future-person. Ditto for using contraception.

to be honest, this is quite typical of mostly older religions, women and men are treated very differently, women are inferior they say.


as for you homosexuality bashers, Alan Turing (the father of modern computing) was gay… so yeah, without gays you wouldnt be SCAR scripting.

From: mormonman
I agree with sirlaughsalot. Pilgrims originally came to the Americas to get freedom of religion. Then the nation was founded "under god".

There is an ancient Italian Maxim that roughly translates to "Those who are resistant to change are destined to perish" -Dave in Hot Rod

I think Dave makes the perfect point here. Change is necessary. Just because that's how it used to be doesn't mean that it works anymore. I've been noticing that "One nation under god" has been used a lot to justify taking away of others rights…

From: sirlaughsalot
You implied at least, that people hate middle eastern people. When that just isnt true. I may be cautious but I dont hate them, and really i am pretty cautious of anyone on an airplane, if I see someone get up and go towards the front I keep a close eye on them until they sit down.

Why are babies treated as objects? A fetus is a living, growing organism, another being that will be seperate from the mother in a very short amount of time. Why is it okay for a mother to kill a person just because that person is inside of her and cannot survive on his or her own? Why, when someone murders a pregnant woman, they are charged with 2 counts of murder, but a woman it is justified? A mother cannot kill her baby when it is outside of the womb, but still cannot take care of itself, but can when a baby is in the womb? Women wont be "forced" to do anything, a woman does not have to take care of the baby herself, I have said this many times, adoption is a viable option for anyone, when a woman is pregnant she can set it up with the adoption agency. There are lots of people who are unable to have children at all, who would give just about anything to have the ability to have children, and you basically mock them by killing a child that could have been theirs. Also rape victims getting pregnant is a very very low percentage. But i will address it anyways, one of my 2nd cousin-in-laws? (my cousins' husbands sister i believe) was a rape victim who got pregnant, and still had the child. The boy has some troubles (acting out ect) he will have to overcome, but everyone has something in their life that bothers them at some point in time, and no matter how she had that child she still loves him and will raise him to the best of her ability.


I would say we have a pretty strict "seperation of church and state" policy, when that in fact is unconstitutional. Please point me to somewhere in the constitution that it says "seperation of church and state". While i dont believe that the state should control the church or vice-versa, creationism isnt even mentioned in the schools here in Texas, and right now people are trying to pass legislation to allow the faults of evolution to be taught but are being opposed. If you are going to teach one side of the debate, teach the other. Evolution has been disguised as "science" when it has taken the form of some kind of religion, because you have to believe that these millions of years of evolution have taken place when it is simply all speculation. I dont understand how we have let religion effect our politics, most of the values we have, stem from religion and have shaped society in general, the ten commandments more specifically.

1.I don't see anywhere in my post where I implied that I hate middle eastern people. I just said, that I become naturally suspicious of a person with a turban walking into my airplane. And as you stated, you feel exactly the same way. And are you equally cautious of a white person in a business suit going up to the front as you are of a middle eastern man in a turban?

2. Why is it okay to kill any animals? At that stage, a fetus, human fetuses are very, very, very similar to fetuses of other animals. So if it is okay to kill animals as part of our regular lives why is it so bad to have an abortion? Because unlike a child that has a developed enough brain to feel pain and have emotions, fetuses are just living cells, no different than any other animal which you believe to be inferior to yourself and worthy of killing.

3. Just because someone you know is happy raising a child that was brought about their rape does not mean everyone is. Rape is so horrific a thing to the victim, having a constant everyday reminder of it is like living through hell everyday of your life for many women.

4. There are plenty more children in need of adopting than couples looking to adopt. That is why we have thousands of children living in horrible conditions in various foster homes. What kind of life is it for those children?

5. Also, what about children with very bad handicaps. I mean horrific mutations and disfigurations. Children that will never live a normal life. Children that will constantly be ridiculed by their peers. Children that would probably rather commit suicide than continue living their life. If you, as a parent, know that your child will suffer if it will be born, why put it through a life of misery? Sometimes you show your love by sparing them the hell of living.

6. There is a difference between not being in the constitution and being unconstitutional. For example, dancing is not mentioned in the constitution, but that does not make it unconstitutional. However, not allowing someone the freedom of religion is unconstitutional because it mentions it in the constitution that you must allow freedom of religion. So back to the point, how can we have freedom of religion (WHICH IS MENTIONED IN THE CONSTITUTION) without a separation of Church and State? If I disagree with your Church, but your Church is the one running the state, then my civil rights are trampled. My neighbors are gay, Prop 8 hurts their family. Yet, because of a lack of separation between church and state, the Mormons (among other religious groups) were able to get a prop passed that IMPOSES their religious beliefs upon other people.

7. Why would creationism be taught in schools? It is a RELIGIOUS idea with no proof whatsoever behind it. There are so many facts out there that disprove creationism that I don't even want to spend the time going into it. But if you seriously think that creationism is real and evolution is fake then I have nothing more to say to you on that matter.

8. Most of the values of our society were written down and made part of the Bible. Society came before religion, not the other way around.

From: tarajunky


Personally, I think those who want "equality" for themselves, and then slam the door in other people's faces are the biggest hypocrites of anyone out there.

See Prop 8.

Who came to America, or rather came to a different part of America to have freedom and equality? Mormons.

Who led the fight against gay marriage to take away other people's freedoms and equality? Mormons.

Note: I know other groups were behind it as well but the Mormons led the charge. I live in a very Mormon neighborhood (and have 1 gay neighbor, ironically) and on every lawn you would see the Yes on Prop 8 signs.

From: lakerzz8
See Prop 8.

Who came to America, or rather came to a different part of America to have freedom and equality? Mormons.

Actually, they LEFT America completely, since Utah wasn't a part of the USA then. There are plenty of other countries that allow gays to wed. If gays want to follow the same example and leave, they're welcome to. Heck, they don't even have to leave the country, they could just go to Massachusetts or Vermont and get hitched.

Who led the fight against gay marriage to take away other people's freedoms and equality? Mormons.

Wrong again. Mormons were the LAST of all the churches to join the coalition, and limited their direct involvement to taking an official ideological stance, and reading a statement once in services. They went to great lengths to ensure that they were not breaking any laws at all, or even hinting that they might be. They donated no tax exempt money, and they used no church facilities, call lists, or administrative support.

Note: I know other groups were behind it as well but the Mormons led the charge. I live in a very Mormon neighborhood (and have 1 gay neighbor, ironically) and on every lawn you would see the Yes on Prop 8 signs.

While it's true that individual Mormon citizens donated more money to pass Prop 8 than other groups, there was still more money spent to defeat it. And there was more out of state money donated to defeat it than to pass it. If anything, all the Mormons did was level the playing field and keep out of state anti-8 donors from skewing the results.

The only reason Mormons get picked on is because there is a lot of prejudice against them, and they're an easy target. Gays think they can turn this into a debate about whether voters have more prejudice against gays or Mormons, which is pretty sad.

From: tarajunky
Actually, they LEFT America completely, since Utah wasn't a part of the USA then. There are plenty of other countries that allow gays to wed. If gays want to follow the same example and leave, they're welcome to. Heck, they don't even have to leave the country, they could just go to Massachusetts or Vermont and get hitched.



Wrong again. Mormons were the LAST of all the churches to join the coalition, and limited their direct involvement to taking an official ideological stance, and reading a statement once in services. They went to great lengths to ensure that they were not breaking any laws at all, or even hinting that they might be. They donated no tax exempt money, and they used no church facilities, call lists, or administrative support.



While it's true that individual Mormon citizens donated more money to pass Prop 8 than other groups, there was still more money spent to defeat it. And there was more out of state money donated to defeat it than to pass it. If anything, all the Mormons did was level the playing field and keep out of state anti-8 donors from skewing the results.

The only reason Mormons get picked on is because there is a lot of prejudice against them, and they're an easy target. Gays think they can turn this into a debate about whether voters have more prejudice against gays or Mormons, which is pretty sad.

We did leave America for religious freedoms.

Church leaders did not tell us to join the coalition for marriage until about June 08… and they said it was a group of churches who were protecting marriage. The LDS church(mormons) wanted this amendment past because if it had not, eventually it would be against the law for us not to allow gays to be married in our temples. Our temples are the most sacred buildings for our church and you have to be interviewed and found worthy in order to even go inside it. Since the act of gay(not being gay) is directly against our religion, they are never allowed to even enter inside it. Also, when they announced that the church was helping back the prop 8 and 102(arizona) they said that the church was not donating any money and that it all came from the members voluntarily donating to the prop themselves and the church never had any involvement with it. It is the LDS church's belief to keep marriage a man and a woman, so many members were just acting upon their beliefs not hatred toward gays.

the act of gay(not being gay)

To clarify this, I will say that our church believes that some people are born with the inclination to like their own gender, and so we do not take it against them. But if they act according to that inclination, in our church it is a sin. There have been plenty of gay people in our church that never act on their gay feelings, and some have overcome them to lead "normal" lives.

@Lakerzz - plz don't just blame mormons… blame people not religions because it is the people acting as they believe.

@Aser - Are we really taking away their rights? If we don't defend marriage it would take away our rights to have our church the way it is.(see the temple thing above ^ )

I honestly do not understand where all the prejudice to Mormons comes from. We are just like any other Christian Religion(yes we are christian in case you are wondering… its in our official name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints). And do not say we are not being Christian for passing Prop 8, because Jesus Christ honestly loves gays because he loves everyone, but he doesn't like it when they are gay with eachother(see clarification topic above ^ ).

That is all I have to say.

From: mormonman


@Lakerzz - plz don't just blame mormons… blame people not religions because it is the people acting as they believe.

And who tells people that being gay is wrong? Their religion. Most people that think being gay is WRONG are those that are religious because it is in their religious doctrine that being gay is wrong. SO it is the religion that is responsible for it.

From: lakerzz8
And who tells people that being gay is wrong? Their religion. Most people that think being gay is WRONG are those that are religious because it is in their religious doctrine that being gay is wrong. SO it is the religion that is responsible for it.

I don't believe that being gay is wrong because of my religion. I believe it is biologically wrong! It is wrong because it hurts our species… although I wouldn't want them to pass on their genes anyways. Just think about it…

From: mormonman
I don't believe that being gay is wrong because of my religion. I believe it is biologically wrong! It is wrong because it hurts our species… although I wouldn't want them to pass on their genes anyways. Just think about it…

your argument is thin, very thin.


if you dont want to hurt your species, theres much better and more effective things you can do then not support gays.
you could recycle more, donate money to charity, and stuff like that.

also, its quite questionable to use "biologically right/wrong", if it is discovered that all men are predisposed to rape, does that make rape right/ethical/allowed?

you could say you hurt your species whenever you use a condom, and whenever a woman refuses your offer for sex, thats also doing damage to the human race.


Also, evolution doesnt work on the level of species, it works on the level of genes. The individual rather then the group is what matters, the only reason you sometimes see "group selection" is that in close population, individuals are normally quite related to each other, and natural selection favours genes which co-operate with other members of its group.

The very idea of species is a concept thought up by man to make organisation easier.


In case you were thinking that reproduction is the path to imortality, I'm afriad that doesnt wash.
your son has 1/2 of your genes, his son has 1/4, his son has 1/8, his son 1/16
mathematicians call this exponential decay, and after a few generations, your genes will be massively diluted.

Queen Elizabeth the Second is the direct decendant of William the Conqueror, but she shares almost non of his genes.



Although it can be shown that morals arise by evolution, it is much more complicated then saying "survival of the fittest, therefore i can rape/steal/kill whenever i need to".

From: Yakman
your argument is thin, very thin.

In case you were thinking that reproduction is the path to imortality, I'm afriad that doesnt wash.
your son has 1/2 of your genes, his son has 1/4, his son has 1/8, his son 1/16
mathematicians call this exponential decay, and after a few generations, your genes will be massively diluted.

Queen Elizabeth the Second is the direct decendant of William the Conqueror, but she shares almost non of his genes.

Hate to contradict you here and will probably get burned for throwing this out here… The y chromosome stays the exact same through all the males in a family tree because it cannot be diluted by a woman's x gene because that would make them female…

Everything else that you said I agree with though.

This got way off topic from terrorism didn't it?

From: mormonman
I don't believe that being gay is wrong because of my religion. I believe it is biologically wrong! It is wrong because it hurts our species… although I wouldn't want them to pass on their genes anyways. Just think about it…

That would imply that being gay is a choice. It is not a choice but genetic. And how does it hurt us biologically? Gay people will always be a minority. We already have overpopulation in many areas so I don't see how such a small minority not being able to reproduce would hurt us? And as someone pointed out, every time you use a condom, masturbate, or a woman doesn't put out, she is hurting the species the same way that gays are.

From: Aser
Hate to contradict you here and will probably get burned for throwing this out here… The y chromosome stays the exact same through all the males in a family tree because it cannot be diluted by a woman's x gene because that would make them female…

Everything else that you said I agree with though.

This got way off topic from terrorism didn't it?

i agree, however the y or x chromosone is one of 46, all the others can easily be mixed around.
also theres more complicated mixing stuff.

i agree its not 1/2, but its as close as makes no difference.