SRL Archive - Discussions & Debates

Lets assume God exists.

This is why i made this thread to answer this =

About the god-evil business.

1. Assume god exists,
2. Assume god is good and all-powerful.

therefore, there should be no 'evil' (or bad) things happening, because god can stop them if he wants (since he's all-powerful) and he wants to stop them (since he's good)

however, we see 'evil' (or bad) things happening in the world today. (hunger, cancer, global warming, the credit crunch, soldiers dying in Iraq, american democrat party being ahead in polls)

so theres a contradiction in assumption number 2.
therefore god cannot be both good and all-powerful.

^^ thats the way i see things anyway.
======================================================
hey guys i havent posted in awhile but here i am to answer this question that ive heard many people ask.

so, people say well if your God is so good and mighty, whys there evil in the world? well evil is defined as

by webster - 1 a: morally reprehensible : sinful , wicked <an evil impulse> b: arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a person of evil reputation>

by urbandictionary -
concentrated foulness; intentionally bad; extremely malignant; Microsoft.

by Christians - anything against God.

so evil can be murder, cheating, lying, stealing, our thoughts, US. Have you ever lied? your evil. Have you ever cheated? your evil. what about your thoughts? your evil. This makes up all of us. Therefore if we wanted God to elimante evil where would we start? just murder? just lying? just cheating? murder, lying, and cheating? or what about us, since by definition we are all evil. so if God wanted to elimante evil, so we be gone to?

I dont feel like going into it. Simple enough Evil = Sin. Sin can be forgiven through salvation.

now watch as many religious people come up with an excuse for it.

the simple answer is because god doesn't exist.

From: Yakman
now watch as many religious people come up with an excuse for it.

the simple answer is because god doesn't exist.

Yakman that made laugh out loud.


Anyways in my opinion… God made evil to test us. When we commit a sin, shouldnt we seek forgiveness?

I agree with kingarabian, that we are to be tested. The reason we have evil is for many reasons. First of all we all have free agency, we are not destined, we have choices. Some of us make the wrong choice, that's why power is so dangerous. Just an example Hitler made the choice of "clensing" the world and his choice cost him the lives of millions. (blah blah but he was crazy or autistic whatever) Another since you guys want to quote from the bible, it also says you cannot taste sweet without bitter. So unless you know what true pain, deep sorrow, and pure evil is you can't experience the love and the pureness we all know are capable of giving…..I really hope I don't sound like a priest or anything, heck I'm only 16 :o

i think i was misunderstood. i BELIEVE in God i posted this for people who ask this question

Simple, we are created in God's image, meaning, we know good and evil. So when the devil came to the earth and tempted eve then sin came into this world because we did not committ God's will. We have to accept Jesus into our hearts because through him we get our sins forgiven and are therefore let into heaven because there is no sin in heaven.

From: sirlaughsalot
Simple, we are created in God's image

no we wernt, we came about through evolution by natural selection,

so the rest of your post falls down because this assertion is wrong.

Yakman, because you believe in a different belief than someone else does not make their belief automatically incorrect, does it? Evolution is still a theory, not fact.

From: Yakman
no we wernt, we came about through evolution by natural selection,

so the rest of your post falls down because this assertion is wrong.

In this "debate" so to speak, we are assuming that God does in fact exist. This is not a discussion of his existance, rather, why is there evil in the world if God exists…

evil is here basicly because Satan coveted God and God said no. and sent him to hell where now Satan hates God and does everything he can against Him. FIN.

(not very descriptive but hopefully you get the point. ;) )

Lets assume that God exists :)

Saten doesnt exist. Saten was made up to cover up for when
a. God didnt help someone, do something, etc. (they say Saten did it)
or
b. Someone does something bad (they say Saten told them to do it)

I personally dont think that this argument is a very good way to argue the point evolution because its not all that strong of an argument. Maybe if you pin that God used to intervene all the time, it might be better, but otherwise once they give you their answer "God gave us free will" its not really much of an argument.

From: Dan Cardin
Lets assume that God exists :)

Saten doesnt exist. Saten was made up to cover up for when
a. God didnt help someone, do something, etc. (they say Saten did it)
or
b. Someone does something bad (they say Saten told them to do it)

I personally dont think that this argument is a very good way to argue the point evolution because its not all that strong of an argument. Maybe if you pin that God used to intervene all the time, it might be better, but otherwise once they give you their answer "God gave us free will" its not really much of an argument.

So it is a Spiritual Cover-Up? LOL

Who is gonna try to use this to persuade someone who doesnt believe in the supernatural to begin with?

its the other way around. People that dont believe in God, trying to persuade someone that does, that they're silly and wrong.

From: Yakman
no we wernt, we came about through evolution by natural selection,

so the rest of your post falls down because this assertion is wrong.

If you don't believe in god why do you defend your ass?
If God is nothing for you, why do you defend yourself?
I never react to one of your posts because you don't attack me.

Simple : For the ignorant people(THAT REALLY DON'T want to believe), if you don't believe in god Jesus and the holy spirit, you will burn in hell.

Still I hope everyone gets in heaven, but since God doesn't exist?! you don't have to worry about anything? eh?

~Hermpie

If you want to say something about my post PM me or I will NOT read it.

From: Esteban
Evolution is still a theory, not fact.

its a theory in the same way that gravity is a theory. Its not a matter of opinion or belief.

From: Hermpie
If you don't believe in god why do you defend your ass?
If God is nothing for you, why do you defend yourself?

I fail to see how I'm defending myself here, I'm pointing something out, not defending.

From: Hermpie
Simple : For the ignorant people(THAT REALLY DON'T want to believe), if you don't believe in god Jesus and the holy spirit, you will burn in hell.

my friend believes in Allah and Muhammad, will that suffice?
my other friend believes in Buddha, that good enough?
seems the typical "believe in this or something bad will happen to you"



About the god-evil business.

1. Assume god exists,
2. Assume god is good and all-powerful.

therefore, there should be no 'evil' (or bad) things happening, because god can stop them if he wants (since he's all-powerful) and he wants to stop them (since he's good)

however, we see 'evil' (or bad) things happening in the world today. (hunger, cancer, global warming, the credit crunch, soldiers dying in Iraq, american democrat party being ahead in polls)

so theres a contradiction in assumption number 2.
therefore god cannot be both good and all-powerful.

^^ thats the way i see things anyway.

From: Yakman
its a theory in the same way that gravity is a theory. Its not a matter of opinion or belief.

Gravity is a scientific fact…

From: Yakman

About the god-evil business.

1. Assume god exists,
2. Assume god is good and all-powerful.

therefore, there should be no 'evil' (or bad) things happening, because god can stop them if he wants (since he's all-powerful) and he wants to stop them (since he's good)

however, we see 'evil' (or bad) things happening in the world today. (hunger, cancer, global warming, the credit crunch, soldiers dying in Iraq, american democrat party being ahead in polls)

so theres a contradiction in assumption number 2.
therefore god cannot be both good and all-powerful.

^^ thats the way i see things anyway.

God created a world with people who have free will, we WANTS us to have that free will, for if we do not have it, our love for Him will be meaningless (if in fact that love exists). All those results are from evil coming into the world (because of satan) and our own free will, He CAN stop that stuff and he WILL (read revelation plox) but it is His will and plan and He will do it in the way He wants…

god gave humans free will.

About the god-evil business.

1. Assume god exists,
2. Assume god is good and all-powerful.

therefore, there should be no 'evil' (or bad) things happening, because god can stop them if he wants (since he's all-powerful) and he wants to stop them (since he's good)

however, we see 'evil' (or bad) things happening in the world today. (hunger, cancer, global warming, the credit crunch, soldiers dying in Iraq, american democrat party being ahead in polls)

so theres a contradiction in assumption number 2.
therefore god cannot be both good and all-powerful.

^^ thats the way i see things anyway.
===============================================

yakman, read my first post thats why i made this thread =]

Life would be ub3rly boring without evil -_- Sure, evil is bad, but think of the world without it - no lieing, no killing, etc. There really wouldn't be much to do in life. Thus, evil is also good (in a way) :p

From: Yakman

my friend believes in Allah and Muhammad, will that suffice?
my other friend believes in Buddha, that good enough?
seems the typical "believe in this or something bad will happen to you"

Mmmm, well, in a way, wouldn't the Catholic God be the same being as the Muslim or Buddha gods? I mean, by the religions they're all viewed upon as the ultimate being (I think?), and the only difference would be the names and other details, but the main concept would be the same.

Well the obvious answer is because I am God. And the world cannot be perfect otherwise its no fun for me. So I created an imperfect world. And because I am God, at any moment in time I could stop all evil.
duhh

From: sirlaughsalot
Gravity is a scientific fact…

its not actually, it keeps getting changed around, its clearly a theory in crisis.

first Aristotle said all things move towards their natural resting state, so rocks fall downwards cause they want to be natural.

and then, someone called Newton said gravity was actually a force that all matter gives out. See, them scientists have changed their minds again!

then this third guy called Einstein comes, he says gravity isn't even a force, but some messed up thing where space itself becomes curved!


you might see people arguing which one is correct,

<1> OMG gravity as a force gives accurate enough results
<2> NOWAY it doesnt explain the orbit of Mercury! gravity-as-curved-space explains it way better
<1> ORLY but yours has equations a mile long, gravity-as-force is much easier to use
<2> YARLY but curved space is the updated version!

as you can see, gravity is anything but a fact, they keep changing their minds, never sure which one is correct.


Evolution is just like gravity in this sense, the difference is that a certain holy book said evolution cant be true, but doesnt mention anything about gravity.
so in your eyes, gravity is "OK" but evolution is not.




oliver1205, so even though you've seen that logical argument but you're searching for something else?
it seems to me you dont like it, you dont like the way god was lost some of his powers with it.
and now you're searching for another solution? where god has all his powers i guess.

In the most basic sense, a scientific fact is an objective and verifiable observation; in contrast with a hypothesis or theory, which is intended to explain or interpret facts.

Gravity is an objective and verifiable observation, therefore, gravity is fact, but the explanation of what gravity truly is, would be the theory behind gravity.

Now let's get back on topic-

Yakman, the following link pretty much sums up the basics as to why there is evil in the world if God is good and all mighty: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_god01.htm

if you dont know what gravity is then it cant really be a fact now can it?
you can prove facts (when we assume that anything is even proveable), you cant prove gravity. Its like saying

"God is fact! i cant prove him, yet he's still definitely up there! so Ha!"

and that is just silly and makes no sense, now does it?

Someone, anyone please, I challenge you, give me any bit, just one bit of evidence for there being a god. . .

From: rostaryms
Someone, anyone please, I challenge you, give me any bit, just one bit of evidence for there being a god. . .

Written records ;)

Though that's what this whole argument is isn't it? Whether or not the Bible or any other religious book speaks the truth.

From: Dan Cardin
if you dont know what gravity is then it cant really be a fact now can it?
you can prove facts (when we assume that anything is even proveable), you cant prove gravity. Its like saying

"God is fact! i cant prove him, yet he's still definitely up there! so Ha!"

and that is just silly and makes no sense, now does it?

Indeed I can prove gravity, anybody can.

God is not observable, therefore, he is not fact. God is a matter of beliefs, not facts, until he makes himself observable one way or another.

Next in line, please?

(sigh), can't anyone help me out here..? I don't want to get to debating again. Here is your answer, God is just in His word. Man is corrupted not God. See there you atheists go again, using circular reason to justify there is no God. This post won't matter to 99% of the people that read it. But its true. It's possible, and it uses correct reasoning. God gave man the ability to choose. To make a choice, you have to have two options. Those are good and evil. God didn't even have to create us. He created us just for relationships we can have with him and other humans. He gives man a choice, to choose him or to not to. And let me be the first to say, that I believe that atheists are the root of alot of evil in the world. Not to say that there aren't very very good atheists, but to say that the everyday college kid that doesn't care about anything is the guy who does the bad drugs, who sleeps around and doesn't care that does anything he wants to get anything. Anyways, Christian's, true christians that is, try to make the world a better place and we are saved. Anyways, this is following that the definition of a true christian is the fact of the above sentence. Anyways, let me answer your next question that pain is God's loudspeaker to a world. Same reason any parent spanks a child, you could say "no.." in a quiet voice, or you could spank them. Which do you think will work.

And if you think this is harsh, fine. I'm tired of dealing with this, I have seen some pretty insulting ideas and messages sent on this thread and others. I have full rights to believe what I believe, I have all the facts in the world, I have never once been "beaten" on even one point of debate, I answer every answer adequately, and yet no one even cares? Anyways, this is not me around the forums, so don't hate me because of this :). I'm just upset right now :P


EDIT: AND HA TO THE PERSON WHO SAID GIVE ME ONE FACT. tbh, i've said that about proving evolution to people who have made more of contribution than a single question.

want a list proving GOD?

1. Fine tunings of universe. the chances of jsut that happening is more than 10 ^999999999.

think of it this way. If you spent a billion dollars every second, and you just 10 ^ 21, it would take you over a trillion years to spend it all, even at 1 bill per second, you can't fathem that number above.. if you don't know what this is, you haven't done your homework and have no right to talk to someone who has put days of work into it.

2. Cambrian explosion.

3. DNA, it doesn't prove your theory it proves mine. The 98% that is the same are things that don't even have to do with appearance, just that its DNA.

4. Evolution doesn't have one true fact, not idea. If so name it?

5. You obviously have never studied the chance of cells or how they come together etheir.

6. irreducible complexity

7. Emotions, feelings, morals.

Thats jsut a few. I'm not going to explain, because one of two things will happen

1. You will say that I'm jsut a stupid theist and that those are all made up.
2. You will go look them up on wikipedia, which is so biased. I tryed to look up a book on Intellegent design, and all I found were things proving it wrong, which i laughed at the answers anyway.

You won't accept it, just go on believing that there isn't a God. I firmly believe that anyone who doesn't believe in a God is uniformed on the facts.

its stupid Pwn, i said exactly that, it simply gets ignored, they dont care, we get frustrated with repeating ourselves and they think they won…

I know, funny thing is we actually have facts, they don't have one. But don't worry, you guys win :). There, I'm going off like you guys do, I've held my cool long enough. This is what you guys to do us everyday, all day, so don't even think about getting mad at me. I take this all day everyday when I am in this specific forum.

IF ANYONE HAS ONE FACT PROVEN ABOUT EVOLUTION PLEASE COME FORWARD. The only one I have ever heard is DNA, which they were wrong about… Take some interest, don't just listen to the biased scientists, look into it yourself.

I hate it when people ask these question because they really don't have much meaning.

If God Is so good, why do roses have thorns? -.-

I think he did it so you guys would ask these dumb questions :p.

According to the bible God created the world because he wanted to test us.
So when you ask questions like this, i think it's dumb because if he put us on a earth with perfect all - well being and everyone is jumping in lah lah land. then what purpose is there?

Also, most of the things besides natural causes are our fault.
You can't blame God because somebody shot your granny in the middle of the street. It's just plain stupid.

even though i believe in God, I am no longer a believer in Religion. I really don't like it much. I told my bishop, my mom, and everyone else. When some of them say "Well, I think the devil is working on you" I Get so angry.
I could say, "Well, I Think The Devil is trying to keep you from the truth".

As pwnaz0r said, God didn't create sin, God created man with choice, man chose to turn away from God and sin.

Also, show me one person that has been changed for the better by the theory of evolution or being an atheist, and I'll show you 1,000 people who have been changed for the better by a loving and gracious God.


Edit: You know what, never mind. I'm just going to say that it's between you and God. My cousin recently returned to the Lord after not following after him for several years by an atheist. I strongly encourage you to read the bible. I can only pray that the holy spirit will work on you.

aww c'mon pwnaz0r, I've told you about those fossils a million times.

also Bobarkinator, you appear to be saying that it doesnt matter if its true or false, what matters is making humans betters, and humans are better if they believe in god.

and about i bible, i do read it, mostly to see for myself the clearly ridiculous things, like how we're not allowed to work on a saturday, homosexuals must be stoned and that pi == 3.

reading the bible has actually taken me further away from belief.

From: Yakman
now watch as many religious people come up with an excuse for it.

the simple answer is because god doesn't exist.

I second that.

From: Yakman
aww c'mon pwnaz0r, I've told you about those fossils a million times.

also Bobarkinator, you appear to be saying that it doesnt matter if its true or false, what matters is making humans betters, and humans are better if they believe in god.

and about i bible, i do read it, mostly to see for myself the clearly ridiculous things, like how we're not allowed to work on a saturday, homosexuals must be stoned and that pi == 3.

reading the bible has actually taken me further away from belief.

Ill go out and say it, I dont think homosexuals should be stoned ect. But homosexuality is wrong and, I believe, a choice… Where in the Bible does it say pi=3? you just are being rediculous now, you seem to think that Christians are close-minded biggots, when really it is you who is that way, you conform to what you are tought (wrongly i might add), the fact that teachers are not allowed to teach simply, what is wrong with evolution is just rediculous…

From: sirlaughsalot
Ill go out and say it, I dont think homosexuals should be stoned ect. But homosexuality is wrong and, I believe, a choice… Where in the Bible does it say pi=3? you just are being rediculous now, you seem to think that Christians are close-minded biggots, when really it is you who is that way, you conform to what you are tought (wrongly i might add), the fact that teachers are not allowed to teach simply, what is wrong with evolution is just rediculous…

Well, what's wrong with homosexuality? how is it "wrong" ?

From: Esteban
Indeed I can prove gravity, anybody can.

God is not observable, therefore, he is not fact. God is a matter of beliefs, not facts, until he makes himself observable one way or another.

Next in line, please?

no you cannot. You can assume that its gravity. Lets even go so far as to say that you know what gravity is. You still cannot prove to me that it exists.

From: Dan Cardin
no you cannot. You can assume that its gravity. Lets even go so far as to say that you know what gravity is. You still cannot prove to me that it exists.

That argument is like multiplying or dividing by 0 in an equation: ruins everything.

Prove to me one fact…then we'll talk.

And no offence but Yakman, this is seriously becoming stupid. You're repeating your arguments, disregarding all the rebuttals completely.

From: Dan Cardin
no you cannot. You can assume that its gravity. Lets even go so far as to say that you know what gravity is. You still cannot prove to me that it exists.

If I know what gravity is, then it would be fact. And to prove that something is fact it has to be objective and observable. You can observe gravity every day, so I would have no need to prove it to you.

This kind of threads are ridiculous, as both sides have chosen their opinion, or someone has chosen them for them (if your parents and everyone around you keep saying God exists. God exists. God exists. God exist…. your whole life of course you'll believe it), and only way to change your mind is to "prove god doesnt exist", and that sounds really childish. In my eyes all big religions are just cults started ages ago that could easily spread in the simple times when nobody really knew much about anything, and the belief has sort of passed from parents to their children since then.

Well, it's quite amusing to read the excuses religious people make to "Useless questions like this" or "questions that don't matter". Pretty nice that a question doesn't matter at all immediately if it can't be answered using the bible or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rostaryms View Post
Someone, anyone please, I challenge you, give me any bit, just one bit of evidence for there being a god. . .
Written records

Though that's what this whole argument is isn't it? Whether or not the Bible or any other religious book speaks the truth.

Written records?!?
The bible is full of falsities. The bible is just made up stories that are supposed to preach good moral. We know it is impossible to walk on water. We know it is impossible to part a sea by spreading our arms. We know it is impossible to come back from the dead.
And while there are actually some things true in the bible, such as: Jesus did exist, he was jesus of nasurath, a carpenter, if you actually believe half the bullshit in there… well, then good luck with the rest of your life.

From: rostaryms
Written records?!?
The bible is full of falsities. The bible is just made up stories that are supposed to preach good moral. We know it is impossible to walk on water. We know it is impossible to part a sea by spreading our arms. We know it is impossible to come back from the dead.
And while there are actually some things true in the bible, such as: Jesus did exist, he was jesus of nasurath, a carpenter, if you actually believe half the bullshit in there… well, then good luck with the rest of your life.

Are you implying that christians are all complete idiots?

From: Hugolord
Well, what's wrong with homosexuality? how is it "wrong" ?

Do you get the point of sex? Its to reproduce. A man and a man or a woman and a woman do not reproduce, therefor it is against nature, and wrong. You believe in nature right?

Anyway that is not the point of this thread…

You see all the "fallacies" that are in the Bible are looked at through the wrong perspective. You look at it through the eyes of a non-believer, we look at those stories and to us they prove that with God anything is possible. It is not probable however, that the Bible will be proven except at the end of days, and if that happens in our lifetime, i hope you will stop being blind and join the winning side.

If you want to know some modern day miracles, read "Tortured for Christ". It is a book with amazing stories of things hapenning in countries with restricted religion that are not explainable through anything else but God.

From: Yakman
its a theory in the same way that gravity is a theory. Its not a matter of opinion or belief.



I fail to see how I'm defending myself here, I'm pointing something out, not defending.




my friend believes in Allah and Muhammad, will that suffice?
my other friend believes in Buddha, that good enough?
seems the typical "believe in this or something bad will happen to you"



About the god-evil business.

1. Assume god exists,
2. Assume god is good and all-powerful.

therefore, there should be no 'evil' (or bad) things happening, because god can stop them if he wants (since he's all-powerful) and he wants to stop them (since he's good)

however, we see 'evil' (or bad) things happening in the world today. (hunger, cancer, global warming, the credit crunch, soldiers dying in Iraq, american democrat party being ahead in polls)

so theres a contradiction in assumption number 2.
therefore god cannot be both good and all-powerful.

^^ thats the way i see things anyway.

Read again.

From: Esteban
If I know what gravity is, then it would be fact. And to prove that something is fact it has to be objective and observable. You can observe gravity every day, so I would have no need to prove it to you.

-,- you do not get the point that i am trying to make.

and in addition "If I know what gravity is, then it would be fact." makes no sense.

"prove that something is fact it has to be objective and observable." no, you cannot observe atoms (as far as i know), yet it is accepted as fact.

From: Dan Cardin
-,- you do not get the point that i am trying to make.

and in addition "If I know what gravity is, then it would be fact." makes no sense.

"prove that something is fact it has to be objective and observable." no, you cannot observe atoms (as far as i know), yet it is accepted as fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanning_tunneling_microscope

From: Yakman
aww c'mon pwnaz0r, I've told you about those fossils a million times.

also Bobarkinator, you appear to be saying that it doesnt matter if its true or false, what matters is making humans betters, and humans are better if they believe in god.

and about i bible, i do read it, mostly to see for myself the clearly ridiculous things, like how we're not allowed to work on a saturday, homosexuals must be stoned and that pi == 3.

reading the bible has actually taken me further away from belief.

I'm glad you read all of posts.

Ok I stopped reading about halfway since I posted, sorry people on this page.

Look Yakman, you have proved to me nothing. I have told you, or anyone who has tried to explain fossils to me, that the fossil record has never bailed Darwin out, which he said it would. Let me teach you a tiny lesson in fossils.

There have been two fossils known the evolution has stood upon. That would not be enough, even if they weren't both false. Those fossils are Java man, and Archeopterix. (spelled wrong)

Archeopterics was supposed to be the missing link between reptile and bird. However, it had and air bladder, the bones were too light for a reptile to maintain its weight, there were no traces or scales, the entire body structure was found to be suitable to that of common day birds. Its an extinct bird… nothing more. I thought that fossil was "buried" in this debate long ago, when high evolutionist scientists denounced it.

Java man, ha. This one kind of makes me laugh. Java man is supposed to be the most well known fossil that supports evolution. Want to know exactly what Java man is? According to the edition of Time magazine, Java man is 3 bones found within a 50 foot radius. They are not even prominent bones, such as the skull cap, a piece of the jaw, and the hip bone. Scientists reconstructed the rest. Yet the pass it off as proof.

So there they are, the two main fossils of evolution, disproved long ago. Also, do you want to know why I will never believe in the fossil record?

1. Scientists get it wrong. Example? A group of scientists in North Africa found a group of skulls and bones scattered within the same size of villages of the time which they were thought to be. The skull caps were smaller, causing them to think that they had in fact found less intellegent, earlier forms of man. However, it was later proved that these skulls were just chimpansee heads, which the natives used to scoop out there brains and eat them. The carcasses were then thrown aside into a fire in a ritual. What scientists thought were men being burned alive, where monkey carcasses being thrown into a fire..

2. Man is corrupt. He wants money. Scientists want money. Haeckel's drawings anyone? I don't remember the specifics on this one (theres a first time for everything, :)) but I do remember the jist of it. Basically A man claimed to have found a fossil of a man that existed, I think 50 million years ago. He turned it into the fossil museum in Britan (can't remember the name sorry :)), and after 2 years, it was found to be something crazy like a pig skull that was doctored. I have seen many of these cases..


So call me skeptical. When you give a simple answer, which is the only answer you can give me to defend your "so called theory", and I disassemble the only two fossils that have even become famous enough to reach my ears, and I go looking for them, and I prove that any scientist will do anything for money or fame, give examples and leave you with the fact I know many more but become weary of typing them, thats a little rough to me don't you think?

Anyways… anyone who doesn't believe there is a God, don't talk to me about anything metaphysical, and here's why. You don't believe in God, therefore there are no morals, you can't have them, you can't have a consicience. if you say you can, your a hypocrite. Terms like survival of the fittest, and social darwinism come to mind. If thats true, why do you feel compassion to that man who your about to kill in war that's pleading for his life and that he has a wife and 3 kids, just to let him live to see them another day? You can't connect with that man on that level, because all we are are random composition of atoms and molecules, nothing more, no purpose.

To clear up that last point, don't ask questions about God when you don't believe he could be here. Why? Because you are unfair to yourself and the sake of arguement( certainly not me, because I play by the rules ). You ask questions about morality without believing there even could be AKA going in to an arguement with questions of a theist and presuppositions of an atheist. That is a combination that will set yourself up to fail in answering the question truely. I never come into an arguement with that, I come in open minded and this is what I come out with…not to mention the impact it has had on my life and the things that have happened to me that cannot be explained by anything but God.

That's the answer to your question, sirlaughsalot. (above, you ask why they won't accept it).

EDIT:

and haha, I love when people bring up the Bible thing Yakman. Not only are you doing the above, but you don't, and can't, understand the Bible yet. Here is your answer, you basically took it out of context. Those rules were meant to the people of the old testiment, some 8000 years ago at least. When did God ever say to do that today. Those rules were meant for them specifically. God never said to do that, see how you distort it?

1. You go in not even really seeking knowledge, you wouldn't accept it even if you thought it could be true (atheistic pressupositions, not real knowledge seeking ideas).

2. You took it out of context.

3. You took it out of time period.

4. You made it sound like God told the people of today to do these things.

And thats what atheists do, this being a good example. They twist and distort things until it fits their story, hammer it into their believe, and don't budge. And if you don't believe me, save it, because I was one, just as much as anyone out there, I was one. I thought I had it all figured out too, so don't tell me what you think you know, because I was that guy…

God Gave us Free will , without it we would be a robot…

YAKMAN:

no we wernt, we came about through evolution by natural selection,

so the rest of your post falls down because this assertion is wrong.

Lets assume God exists.

This is why i made this thread to answer this =

if you cannot assume God exists then why post here you have your thoughts on creation, we have ours why must you argu so much?


Anyway to anser this thread..

Evil is , because if god did not give humans free will we would be robotic and controled .. that is why there is evil.



EDIT: PawnZoR you ownz all.

This can be answered with another dodgey, open-ended question;

"If programmers are so educated on the internet, why do viruses still exist?"

It's basically the same principle, but on a more insignificant level.

From: pwnaz0r
Archeopterics was supposed to be the missing link between reptile and bird. However, it had and air bladder, the bones were too light for a reptile to maintain its weight,

so it couldnt fly, neither can ostriches.

From: pwnaz0r
there were no traces or scales, the entire body structure was found to be suitable to that of common day birds. Its an extinct bird… nothing more.

modern-day birds don't have teeth!
this shows how well you researched this

From: pwnaz0r
I thought that fossil was "buried" in this debate long ago, when high evolutionist scientists denounced it.

they did no such thing, the eleven fossils found remain a good piece of evidence for evolution.



This is exactly whats expected from you though,
you have a less-then-ideal understanding of the world, you are content to make up figures to support your theory. You rely on people thinkign "Its long and has big numbers, it must be right!"

you've shown this in the "Weaknesses of evolution" thread.
which you then abandoned as soon as someone with evidence showed up.

you also abandoned your "my case for a creator [final]"

From: pwnaz0r
stuff about java man

there were about 7 or 8 different species found thought to be transitional fossils before man too,
how about you try to discrete them too.

From: pwnaz0r
stuff about scientists being wrong

i could just as well say Intelligent Design scientists get it wrong too,
therefore we are both equally incorrect?

scientists developed everything you see around you.
if scientists always make mistakes, how could your computer possible work? how could you be cured of your disease? how could your house stand without the mortar holding together the bricks.

From: pwnaz0r

2. You took it out of context.

3. You took it out of time period.

4. You made it sound like God told the people of today to do these things.

you guys are doing exactly the same thing with the story of creation.

^^ Pretty much sums it up.

its simple lol, there is evil to balance out the good in the world :f:

From: Esteban
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanning_tunneling_microscope

that does not actually show us atoms. It gives us an image of where atoms are.

The atoms themselves are thousands of times smaller than the smallest lightwaves that we can see, so it is impossible to see them as of yet.

lots of argueing, ahh!

well ill post a post thats actually on topic. :)

There is evil in the world because God gave us free-will, he gave us free will because he didn't just want a whole bunch of robots.
think of it like the army, im sure they would like a whole bunch of robots to fight, but you cant do that. they let the people go home if they dont want to, because they only want people that are actually willing to fight for their lives, their country, and their families.


@the people debating whether or not God exists and the facts and fossils and blah blah blah. (directed towards people that say God doesn't exist) First read the story of Jericho from the Bible, not some cheesey story on the internet. Now, in the past 10 years or so archaelogists believe they found the city of Jericho, even they find facts of grain being in a room built into the wall, that the Bible also states. Archaelogists also think they found the cities of Sodom and Gomora (spelling?) aka the very sinful cities where prostitutes roamed the streets etc.

From: GoF

^^ Pretty much sums it up.

Here my friend's, is a man, who does not and probably cannot discuss things he knows nothing about. So he posts this, which made me laugh. Because that guy who made that is stupid. He doesn't even know who God is. Everysingle theorietical questions atheists bring up is just silly. EVERY SINGLE ONE. You seem to think God can't be just, that he has to fit into your box and that if there is a God, he has to do what's right for you everytime. God is good, do you even know what good is? that's not a relative term, it applies to all things, which there is a standard.

HUMANS ARE THE PROBLEM. Do you people who think you have it all figured out hear me? That's what ever Christian, and most people that know there is a God believe in. It's not God, who started wars. God never said "and there shall be war". Who caused man to be corruptable? God never thought "and man shall be imperfect."

In my opinion, atheists are blind. They greatly mistake God's attributes and pretend to know more about what He would be like, even more so than me, or any theist.

This is the situation you are in, you have your cookie cutter God, then we tell you what He is really like. But you don't want to accept it, because ethier you can't comprehend it or you just want to be right. Then we go to the ballpark of science, which I'm pretty sure that we have won, if you have ever been in this debate forum. I grow weary of fighting off new opponents and having to say the same things over and over again.

That's how I view atheism, ignorance and/or ignoring of true scientific fact, and lack of ability to understand who God really is. If that picture is all you have to base your arguement on, I laugh. That means nothing.

Just want to make a quick point, let's assume there is no God. Do all bad things go away? NO. So why then when He comes into the equation is it all His fault. See how silly it is???? You say, well yeah man did this to Himself, until God comes into the equation, then all I hear is "WHY WOULD GOD DO THIS". The only thing you can argue to that is, "oh God is good, so He wouldn't let it happen". To that I laugh, because you again, don't understand Him. He made us with a choice to make, what glory would he gain from these little robots He made to choose Him automatically. Actually in the Garden of Eden, everything was perfect, but man had to screw it up.

Again, I try not to get mad, but goodfight. You can't come onto the turf of metaphysical, with the assumptions of anthiests when trying to see if God is there, because you won't find Him. You have to know what really is.

AND stop bringing up old facts about the CHURCH.

1. I personally wasn't there, its not my fault.
2. I'm pretty sure if we want to play that game, SCIENCE in general has been wrong much more, theories being overturned and such…

The guy above me has the right idea, its not hard to understand, stop refusing to.

To both parties:
Why do you even bother posting… All these posts about religion are getting more and more offensive… This way I'd rather see us stop posting about religion?
I've given up long ago trying to convince the 'other' group, it simply doesn't work that way, you can't just throw away years of indoctrination / education. (Other people are stuck in/with their home made theories)
I think if they are worth it they will find out someday.

Personally, I think a better topic would be to argue WHY religion was invented.
I can understand religion in certain ways… It's mainly created out of fear, fear of death. Fear of evil, perhaps? Somehow feeling there's always somebody to cover your back, and when you die, you will live on, in peace…

EDIT: Just one thing, about science being wrong… Theories overthrown… Of course they are overthrown, when you find out new things, you will have to update your current theories and standings, but this does make them all wrong, I think it's wonderfull how theories get overthrown, otherwise it wouldn't be science, no? ;)

And, to follow that up, just because someone will post: "OMG, why do you get defensive about religion?!?!? ITS JUST LIKE POLITICS LOLZ"…

I'd like to see these discussions deleted because they've turned into a massive BBQ fest, and are good for nothing more. If you really feel like you need to discuss this, how about talking to a local Decon/Atheist or something?

From: pwnaz0r
Here my friend's, is a man, who does not and probably cannot discuss things he knows nothing about. So he posts this, which made me laugh. Because that guy who made that is stupid. He doesn't even know who God is. Everysingle theorietical questions atheists bring up is just silly. EVERY SINGLE ONE. You seem to think God can't be just, that he has to fit into your box and that if there is a God, he has to do what's right for you everytime. God is good, do you even know what good is? that's not a relative term, it applies to all things, which there is a standard.

HUMANS ARE THE PROBLEM. Do you people who think you have it all figured out hear me? That's what ever Christian, and most people that know there is a God believe in. It's not God, who started wars. God never said "and there shall be war". Who caused man to be corruptable? God never thought "and man shall be imperfect."

In my opinion, atheists are blind. They greatly mistake God's attributes and pretend to know more about what He would be like, even more so than me, or any theist.

This is the situation you are in, you have your cookie cutter God, then we tell you what He is really like. But you don't want to accept it, because ethier you can't comprehend it or you just want to be right. Then we go to the ballpark of science, which I'm pretty sure that we have won, if you have ever been in this debate forum. I grow weary of fighting off new opponents and having to say the same things over and over again.

That's how I view atheism, ignorance and/or ignoring of true scientific fact, and lack of ability to understand who God really is. If that picture is all you have to base your arguement on, I laugh. That means nothing.

Just want to make a quick point, let's assume there is no God. Do all bad things go away? NO. So why then when He comes into the equation is it all His fault. See how silly it is???? You say, well yeah man did this to Himself, until God comes into the equation, then all I hear is "WHY WOULD GOD DO THIS". The only thing you can argue to that is, "oh God is good, so He wouldn't let it happen". To that I laugh, because you again, don't understand Him. He made us with a choice to make, what glory would he gain from these little robots He made to choose Him automatically. Actually in the Garden of Eden, everything was perfect, but man had to screw it up.

Again, I try not to get mad, but goodfight. You can't come onto the turf of metaphysical, with the assumptions of anthiests when trying to see if God is there, because you won't find Him. You have to know what really is.

AND stop bringing up old facts about the CHURCH.

1. I personally wasn't there, its not my fault.
2. I'm pretty sure if we want to play that game, SCIENCE in general has been wrong much more, theories being overturned and such…

The guy above me has the right idea, its not hard to understand, stop refusing to.

You're still very, very wrong.

Ha, so seriously. That's all you can give me. I love it. Look, today I actually took a step in solving this conflict, and I saw what atheists saw. I see why you believe what you believe and why you can believe it. I had been there before, but it refreshed my memory.

1. You don't understand the true attributes of God. They completely make sense AKA they add up. He is Just (that being an attribute, like a judge), so he must operate to the principles that define His very being. Thus if you misbehave, or do not take his free gift of salvation, He must send you to Hell. He is good in the sense that He didn't have to give any off us a second chance, He could have let us all go to Hell. He also gave us a choice to believe in Him or not, for His own glory if you accept Him. Therefore to operate within those principals, He is truly good to those who have accepted Him, only to a farther degree. He is good to you as atheists in the way that he gave you life, and he gives you a choice, and you are allowed to enter heaven. He is almighty God, therefore he can do things we don't think "moral" of humans, because unlike humans He created everything and owns everything. Therefore he has the right as God to shut the gates of Heaven on you if He wanted to (if that makes sense) but He doesn't. And that is how He is good until you believe in Him, then by obeying all the attributes that define His very being, he can be greater to you, because basically (you have passed His attribute of Justice because you are already saved, and to my knowledge that is the only promise or attribute that involves his attribute of being Just)

2. You don't open your mind. You understand what we truly believe. You are on a level biased. On this note I would like to add that most Christian writers are biased also to a degree. Such as dismissing hypothesis as silly when are really not so silly. However, I see the wrong in them when closely examinated.

3. You have the illusion that science is on your side. The things that stood out to me, after I obtained the mindset of an atheist (and I truly did) where things like the universes attributes that clearly show design and the Cambrian explosion, things I already know about, being a huge advocate of Intellegent Design. Maybe I have failed in explaining these huge problems in Science that evolution has and the great strides that support Intellegent Design.

4. You will never listen to me anyway. I know that's true now, because you think that God is just some idea thought up by humans, to explain things we couldn't explain, and now we can explain them, but Christians are just some idiots hold onto the idea and won't let go. You think we just think the world is wrong and we are right… I'm here to tell you, God is more than that. As I was driving home today, I looked outside my car at nature, at the sun, thought about all the things that are just perfect, the water cycle, the moon's cycle. All those stars millions and billions of miles away. My ability to rationalize at all, then I thought of all the things that God has personally done for me. Those things I prayed about and they really did happen in my life. It's not because He is a genie but he says

From: Luke 11:9

"So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

That applies to people that actually believe in Him. Understand that He might not answer the prayer in the way you thought so, but ultamitely, that's what faith is, because you don't know everything like He does.

Anyways, my point is that I examine everything around me, and I refuse that things like that are by chance, that things so beautiful in this world are not random molecules, which they aren't. Every thing from the smallest atom to the stars is intricately and intellegently designed so it seems. How the ratio's in atoms in stars, where humans have had no hand at all in designing it and we know that for sure, supports a designer and if the ratio was off by .000001% the star would explode. Things like that aren't by chance.



To clear it up, it still made me laugh, because if you can try to understand, in my mind you are defeated there (I understood atheism, and have greater respect for it now, however its your turn). I typed out a huge post, and to me, it seemed like you read it, understood it, and chose not to accept it. However, you couldn't make a reply to it, so you did the same thing anyother person who doesn't want to believe something would do: You pushed it away. That's what I mean about being open minded.

The Main sienctist behind the Big Bang Theory is a preist.

i love god. i love jesus. i believe jesus died for me. but, i hate religion. religion is just a bunch of tradition. it isnt about religion. its about jesus. jesus said "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father,
but through Me'" (John 14:6)

so dont think just becuase you follow silly traditions your doing good. follow jesus

I don't even exist kthx, you guys should just stop posting threads like this >_>

I'm not trying to be rude, I have had an insight kinda (lol) about atheism, so I can and will remain calm now, however, if you don't like these threads, then just don't post. It doesn't affect you, I love debating about it, its good mind exercise and I love seeing what people have to say, prepares me for the world. You don't have to be involved here, I hope that no one brings harsh feelings from these, I certainly never have held any that I know of :).

Anyways, I think oliver is right, that's where I stand on the matter.

From: oliver1205
i love god. i love jesus. i believe jesus died for me. but, i hate religion. religion is just a bunch of tradition. it isnt about religion. its about jesus. jesus said "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father,
but through Me'" (John 14:6)

so dont think just becuase you follow silly traditions your doing good. follow jesus

Amen. I'm not a highly religious person and most of the time I think religion is bullshit and causes tons more problems then it solves (I could even argue that religion is an evolutionary adaptation, but I'll spare you guys this time). But anyway. I do believe in Jesus and I do believe he died on the cross for our sins, that much I'll bite for. However, when it comes to the bible, I'm about ready to toss it out the window. Jesus loved everybody. He legitimately cared for all the people of the earth. The Bible on the other hand lays down exclusionary principles against just about everything (Gay people, etc.). So when it comes to religion, I'd have to say I'd go with Mr. Jesus's philosophy and just say give everyone a fair chance guys.

I stand somewhere around there also. If asked what religion I was in, I would answer Christianity (and most likely some more); personally I cannot stand most religious people. I mean ….. alright this is not vain usage … just one way of putting it… "Religious people… for Christ sake… they killed Jesus…" =] I don't go around trying to shove my ideals and morals down peoples' throats, and I don't go out and be like "You going to Hell; Repent!" That's just insolence… In my opinion… shut up and talk… seriously would people notice anything different if you couldn't speak? what is it that makes you what you are… not being hypocritical… I am good friends with loads of different peoples… nothing is to say that I cannot converse with an Atheist, play cards with a Wiccan, spend the night at a Pagan's house, and/or laugh and cry with a Buddhist. Whatever. Debating and discussing is all in good fun and can be enjoyed, but knowingly trying to hurt someone and forcing your thoughts and foul language at other people …. that's just not conducive to a good SRL forums environment.

://Hopes I don't offend anybody.

Man I love chain letters sometimes.

Not sure if someone has posted this before, but what's coldness? I mean, it only goes down to 0 K (-273 C) doesn't it? But yet hotness can go into the millions so is it fair to say cold is just the absence of heat? Another example will be dark and light

So why is there evil in this world? The lack of God in our lives ;) We have a choice whether to believe in God or not, we have a choice in everything we do. We don't lie because we have to, but we choose to. We don't cheat because we have to, but because we choose to. We choose to disregard God, we choose to do evil. We choose to choose George Bush as president, we choose to doom America :p (not America but amirite?)

Sorry if this counts as grave digging, it's still on the first page and I'm bored as hell.

The question was, "If God can do anything why does he let evil be in this world?" I actually learned the answer to that very recently in fact.

As some of you know (and some might not) Jesus told parables to explain how heaven/earth/hell worked. Why things are the way they are. On a level a normal man can perceive.

The parable i am most specifically talking about is "The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares." It explains why God lets bad people live amongst the good people. http://www.web-ministry.com/religious/parables/wheattares/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Tares#Interpretation

Good discussion. and good question. the existence of evil. you explained it well. We must remember that we are explaining this in the Christian context. Christianity states that evil is anyway against God, I would say that anything that is not God is evil unless God would have it be. Because God is good, perfect, all-powerful, beautiful, glorious, and satisfying. In the context of the Bible, if God is all these things, than everything else cannot be truely all these. Because God cannot be compared to anything else!



I saw a professed Christian on this thread say that they care less about the bible and this utterly hurts me. I do love and care about you enough to tell you that, that is totally wrong to consider God's word to be that worthless. It should be precious to his children. Even considered food and water for us to eat and drink. I beg you to repent, knowing that it is the holy spirit that convicts if it is within you. his word changes us, as has changed me. We need his Word to conform us to the image of Christ!!