SRL Archive - Discussions & Debates

Honest question.

I've seen this a lot on #srl lately. People seem to be ragging on George Bush for, what seems to be, no reason at all. When asked why they hate him so much, they simply say that he's "Evil", "Stupid", "Terrible at everything. Especially being a president", or they simply say nothing.

I've made this thread to ask why people hate our current president so much. And remember, just because he's not the most prolific speaker doesn't mean he's a bad president!

Now that we have that out of the way, please post. I'm dying to know :)

War in Iraq, nuff said, next step => google.

i don't hate him at all, but then again, i don't really care. He is the most amusing president we have had though… lol

I'm indifferent to the guy. I think he has made some wrong choices about stuff, but I'd like to see you people try to be President for a week ;) And I do admit he is amusing how stupid he acts sometimes.


And I often Lol at the jokes Jimmy Kimmel says about him on his LateNight show.

From: Hugolord
War in Iraq, nuff said

Are you saying that because it's 'cool', or because you actually give a crap about the war?

Do you have any proof that says it was Bush's fault? Or did it just happen to start while Bush was in office?

The truth is, any president would have gone to war. Why do you feel the need to blame Bush?

Mm… Let me ask you this. Why do you hate the war in Iraq? Because our soldiers are dying? Kk.

Death toll in WWII: 418,000.

Death toll in Iraq War: About 3,000.

(And a little tidbit of information… "Official" deaths in the hit on the World Trade Centers: About 3,000. Ironic, eh? Killing us on our soil is one thing but when they kill us on their soil, it's reason to hate the president?)

If you don't care about our soldiers dying, then what is it? Why are you so put off by the war?

From: Hy71194
I'd like to see you people try to be President for a week ;)

Exactly my point. How would you like to be responsible for over 300,000,000 people? You wouldn't last a day.

From: Jason2gs


Exactly my point. How would you like to be responsible for over 3,000,000 people? You wouldn't last a day.

3 million people in US? :P
hope you meant 300,000,000 even, though it's still over 3,000,000.

anyway, the Iraq war. Interesting topic. So many people want to get out. For what? To save their Child/spouse 's life. I think it's selfish, even though they have a right to be selfish. Saddam was torturing people, and many more people would have lost their lives if we had not intervened. I highly doubt we bombed ourselves, but even if we did, we are still saving lives. And to be honest, Bush probably isn't smart enough to think of something like that. Nor any others up in Washington.

From: isjusme
3 million people in US? :P
hope you meant 300,000,000 even, though it's still over 3,000,000.

anyway, the Iraq war. Interesting topic. So many people want to get out. For what? To save their Child/spouse 's life. I think it's selfish, even though they have a right to be selfish. Saddam was torturing people, and many more people would have lost their lives if we had not intervened. I highly doubt we bombed ourselves, but even if we did, we are still saving lives. And to be honest, Bush probably isn't smart enough to think of something like that. Nor any others up in Washington.

Haha, thanks for pointing that out :p *Edited*

Though, let's not let this turn into a discussion on the Iraq War. (Unless that's the only thing people have against GWB… Which is stupid :S)

And what do you mean he's not "smart enough to think of something like that"? Smart enough to think of what?

bombing the world trade center so he could go to Iraq, which many people think because they believe that he gets to leave with millions of dollars because of it, even though he probably doesn't gain a bit more than the $200,000/year the presidents make anyway

From: Jason2gs
Haha, thanks for pointing that out :p *Edited*

Though, let's not let this turn into a discussion on the Iraq War. (Unless that's the only thing people have against GWB… Which is stupid :S)

And what do you mean he's not "smart enough to think of something like that"? Smart enough to think of what?

I think he means smart enough to bomb ourselves… which would be totally sick, not smart.

EDIT: Guess so.

From: isjusme
bombing the world trade center so he could go to Iraq, which many people think because they believe that he gets to leave with millions of dollars because of it, even though he probably doesn't gain a bit more than the $200,000/year the presidents make anyway

Oh, Haha :D

People really think that?

Talk about conspiratorialists… (Yay! I made a word!)

yeah.. look up wtc attacks on youtube some of it is so ridiculous it's hilarious.

Oh, IsJusMe… Are you pro-Bush or anti-Bush?

pro-bush, i really can't think of anything he has screwed up. at least not too bad. but i think hillary would be a lot worse for us, I wrote something in the Arguments for God post… you should check it out. that's what she is going to do. I'm glad she very likely won't win.

Ah yes. Free health care, computer chips, anti-male audience… I read it :p

I think most people hat the war because they really don't know what the hell is going on over there… I actually think nothing is really being accomplished. Now that I think about it, who are we actually attacking? Civilians? I thought they already got most of the people who *might* have been responsible. Theres also some fakeish reasons for being over there, reports for WMD's that say there are weapons are not checking if they actually work… One of them only found like 200 or so and over 190 were not operational and out of those about 150 didn't even have the dangerous materials in them (it leaked out or w/e).


Another reason might be we spend $700,000,000 a day on the war, and we print about $700,000,000 in US currency a day… And I still think we have a national debt in the trillions along with the value of the dollar decreasing.

Actually, we have accomplished things. It's just that the soldiers that Iraq have are too lazy to do anything, so we have to stay so Al-Qaeda won't come in and take them over.

From: Jason2gs
Are you saying that because it's 'cool', or because you actually give a crap about the war?

Do you have any proof that says it was Bush's fault? Or did it just happen to start while Bush was in office?

The truth is, any president would have gone to war. Why do you feel the need to blame Bush?

Mm… Let me ask you this. Why do you hate the war in Iraq? Because our soldiers are dying? Kk.

Death toll in WWII: 418,000.

Death toll in Iraq War: About 3,000.

(And a little tidbit of information… "Official" deaths in the hit on the World Trade Centers: About 3,000. Ironic, eh? Killing us on our soil is one thing but when they kill us on their soil, it's reason to hate the president?)

If you don't care about our soldiers dying, then what is it? Why are you so put off by the war?



Exactly my point. How would you like to be responsible for over 300,000,000 people? You wouldn't last a day.

the war in iraq pretty much started in 1992. oil wars. w bush wasnt in office then

I actually find it humorous that people call it the 'Iraq War.' The war is over and has been for quite some time, if you think about it. A war is when one or more countries goes to another one or more countries and kills as many of them as they can and destroys as much infrastructure as they can, until one side gives up or they come to an agreement. Well we overthrew there leader and destroyed TONS of buildings and people. We won. It is over. Now what we are doing is occupying the country. Now whether it is in the best interest of the Iraqis or ourselves is another question. But, in my opinion anyways, we are no longer at war.

Also, the reason I do not like bush is because he tries to lie to the public and then gets caught in his own lies. If you do not believe me, google "Bush contradicts himself" and you will get tons of results and articles and video clips of him saying things that totally contradict each other. If you cannot trust the most powerful person in the world (or one of them) to tell the truth to his people about the state of affairs in the country, you cannot trust him to run it properly. That is my belief.

Bush isnt the greatest president, but he's definately not the worst. I was going to point out the death thing for iraq, but its already been said :(. Thats basically the only thing my dad (who says he's the worst president) can come up with to tell me why. I bet you if i asked if going into WWII was a good idea after being bombed in Pearl Harbor(as far as i know, its almost the same circumstances(meaning we got attacked and retaliated, etc)). When we were argueing i posed him the question- "if i were to punch you in the face, what would you do?" (he didnt answer me :p)

yes if hillary clinton is pres she will be the worst because she is terrible not |337 at all. she is a phail bucket philled with phail sauce

All I can say is that I'd much rather Bush over Hilary or Obama.

Oh, I can also say that the next 4 (God forbid, 8) years are going to be hell.

From: Dan Cardin
Bush isnt the greatest president, but he's definately not the worst. I was going to point out the death thing for iraq, but its already been said :(. Thats basically the only thing my dad (who says he's the worst president) can come up with to tell me why. I bet you if i asked if going into WWII was a good idea after being bombed in Pearl Harbor(as far as i know, its almost the same circumstances(meaning we got attacked and retaliated, etc)). When we were argueing i posed him the question- "if i were to punch you in the face, what would you do?" (he didnt answer me :p)

Dude WWII and the War in Iraq are completely different. Pearl Harbour was a direct attack on our country by Japan. The WTC attacks were not done by Hussein or Iraq, they were perpetrated by Osama Bin Laden/Al Qaeda. Us attacking Iraq has distracted us from the original goal of stopping the terrorists that destroyed the lives of nearly 3000 civilians.

Think about this. 8 million children in the US are uninsured. So far 526 billion dollars have been spent on the War in Iraq. This does not account for money that will go to veterans later, or if the war continues for longer with McCain as president. With this money spent on the war we could insure 8 million children for 28 years.

And we've lost over 4000 military lives in the war in Iraq. This does not include about 100 suicides of soldiers per year, or the many who have been permanently crippled by injuries. An estimated 150,000 to 655,000 Iraqi civilians have died during the war, much more than under Saddam.


Finally, around 65% of Iraqi civilians favor an immediate pullout of us troops. 61% say the troops make them feel less safe, and around 41% believe attacks on US soldiers are justified. Sounds like it's time to leave.

Sources:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/26/AR2006092601721.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6040054.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7300115.stm

My opinion on Mr.Bush here is this… I don't frankly care too much as long as everything is still somewhat spinning. Personally though, I think something in the government does need to change to make it more efficient (could we clone leaders??? XD)

From: Smartzkid
All I can say is that I'd much rather Bush over Hilary or Obama.

Oh, I can also say that the next 4 (God forbid, 8) years are going to be hell.

Care to elaborate on why you do like Bush and why you do not like Obama/Hilary. Otherwise the rest of us must assume you were 1. raised Republican and that is why or 2. You do not like women or black people. I mean really, you don't wanna leave that impression do you?

From: Dusk412
Care to elaborate on why you do like Bush and why you do not like Obama/Hilary. Otherwise the rest of us must assume you were 1. raised Republican and that is why or 2. You do not like women or black people. I mean really, you don't wanna leave that impression do you?

Obama is incapable, I could talk all day, but I'll only cover the major points. To begin with, he plans on withdrawing troops from Iraq. Like that will work? He hasn't even consulted Petreus. Making silly claims like airlifting all of our soldiers out of Iraq simultaenously is a joke, and not only makes him look like an idiot to anyone with a brain, but also costs us the lives of the people who do stay behind.

Hilary - (Bursts out laughing), Hillary*, besides being a politician, is a fascist liberal. She makes claims like free medicare for everyone, and is currently trying to exercise and stretch things that she cannot do and never will be able to do - juggling mediocre claims like these all while having the same stance as Obama on the War.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zUdjhKbImwE

Obama wants to lift the ban on talking to Terroristss. He plans to go talk to them himself.

From: alach11
Dude WWII and the War in Iraq are completely different. Pearl Harbour was a direct attack on our country by Japan. The WTC attacks were not done by Hussein or Iraq, they were perpetrated by Osama Bin Laden/Al Qaeda. Us attacking Iraq has distracted us from the original goal of stopping the terrorists that destroyed the lives of nearly 3000 civilians.

From the beginning we knew that it was a war fighting terrorists and the people who harbor them *cough*TALIBAN*cough*… so dont act like we are "distracted" show some foresight and see what good we are bringing for the next generation.

From: alach11

Think about this. 8 million children in the US are uninsured. So far 526 billion dollars have been spent on the War in Iraq. This does not account for money that will go to veterans later, or if the war continues for longer with McCain as president. With this money spent on the war we could insure 8 million children for 28 years.

Any proof for this figure or are you just pullin it out of your ass? Oh wait thats where your head is!

From: alach11

And we've lost over 4000 military lives in the war in Iraq. This does not include about 100 suicides of soldiers per year, or the many who have been permanently crippled by injuries. An estimated 150,000 to 655,000 Iraqi civilians have died during the war, much more than under Saddam.

Holy shit that is a large spread… Once again bring some evidence to back up your claims when you bring up numbers…. http://wais.stanford.edu/Iraq/iraq_deathsundersaddamhussein42503.html
Look at that and if you dont say "holy crap" then something is wrong with you . If you look at http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and calculate how many have happened per day from that is a massive 45-55 or so… But the difference is that the US soldiers didnt make those attacks, Terrorists are making those attacks and blatantly targeting civilians to make out movement look bad because of the ignorant people saying "they wouldnt do that if we werent there"… Guess what? There were terrorists in iraq before we got there!

From: alach11

Finally, around 65% of Iraqi civilians favor an immediate pullout of us troops. 61% say the troohttp://www.srl-forums.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=415867
SRL-Forums - Reply to Topicps make them feel less safe, and around 41% believe attacks on US soldiers are justified. Sounds like it's time to leave.

Sources:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/26/AR2006092601721.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6040054.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7300115.stm

All those polls except for the last are out of date by YEARS, and the last one they asked this question

how things are going in your life these days

Wow, and you are picking information you want to pick…

67% of Sunni Iraqis replied overwhelmingly in the negative.

Shia Iraqis, however, answered very positively, with 62% saying quite good or very good.

Kurds were the happiest, with 73% saying quite good or very good.

After all that beatdown of ideas ;) how can you not like president bush if this is the only thing you can find wrong with him? Also all the "he is incompetent" crap is not true because some of the things he does like, skipping ahead a bit in speeches and tripping over himself is a sign of intelligence, as his brain moves faster than his mouth and he is always thinking ahead. He is not the best speaker but I for one love his speaking style, I feel like I can sit down and talk to him and he would enjoy it. While this is not a reason to like his policies and whatnot we are talking about liking him in general. I hope this has changed someones mind ;)

From: sirlaughsalot
From the beginning we knew that it was a war fighting terrorists and the people who harbor them *cough*TALIBAN*cough*… so dont act like we are "distracted" show some foresight and see what good we are bringing for the next generation.

Surely there are more tactful ways to fight terrorism than to invade an entire country and occupy it. Occupying forces are always vulnurable to terrorists and tend to be viewed in a negative light, potentially causing more problems.

From: sirlaughsalot
Any proof for this figure or are you just pullin it out of your ass? Oh wait thats where your head is!

Ok here's a quick breakdown of how to figure this out.
First start with the cost of the war from one of these websites. Most websites say around $500 billion to $600 billion has been spent in Iraq as of today. Estimates for the long term go as high as 3 trillion.
http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home
http://egan.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/21/the-invisible-war/?ref=opinion

Now we take $500 billion and divide it by the 8,000,000 uninsured children. Then we divide that by the $1500 a year it costs for the government to insure a child. This gives us 41.6 years of insurance for 8,000,000 children. I guess my original figure was too small.

From: sirlaughsalot
Holy shit that is a large spread… Once again bring some evidence to back up your claims when you bring up numbers…. http://wais.stanford.edu/Iraq/iraq_deathsundersaddamhussein42503.html
Look at that and if you dont say "holy crap" then something is wrong with you . If you look at http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and calculate how many have happened per day from that is a massive 45-55 or so… But the difference is that the US soldiers didnt make those attacks, Terrorists are making those attacks and blatantly targeting civilians to make out movement look bad because of the ignorant people saying "they wouldnt do that if we werent there"… Guess what? There were terrorists in iraq before we got there!

There were terrorists in Iraq before we were there, but there weren't suicide bombings every day. If we had to get rid of Saddam couldn't we have assasinated him instead of causing so much anti-US sentiment and terrorism?
Also other estimates of civilian casualties go much higher. Some unreliable estimates as high as 600,000 and more reliable ones around 150,000.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/10/world/middleeast/10casualties.html
http://rochestercitynewspaper.com/news/articles/COST+OF+WAR:+The+Iraq+conflict+by+the+numbers+(6+4+08)/

From: sirlaughsalot
All those polls except for the last are out of date by YEARS, and the last one they asked this question
Wow, and you are picking information you want to pick…

Ok here's another poll from march 2008.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/poll/2008/0308opinion.pdf
46% of Iraqi's have "No confidence at all" in us forces compared to 4% which have a great deal of confidence.
35% think US forces have done a "very bad job" compared to 6% think we did a "very good job".
7% strongly support troop presence in Iraq versus 41% strongly oppose it.
When asked if America left Iraq today the situation would get better or worse 46% said better and 29% said worse.

From: sirlaughsalot
After all that beatdown of ideas ;) how can you not like president bush if this is the only thing you can find wrong with him? Also all the "he is incompetent" crap is not true because some of the things he does like, skipping ahead a bit in speeches and tripping over himself is a sign of intelligence, as his brain moves faster than his mouth and he is always thinking ahead. He is not the best speaker but I for one love his speaking style, I feel like I can sit down and talk to him and he would enjoy it. While this is not a reason to like his policies and whatnot we are talking about liking him in general. I hope this has changed someones mind ;)

No the war in Iraq is not the only reason I disagree with Bush. Here are a few other reasons

1. Tax cuts for the wealthy.
Bush has consistently favored the top 1% when passing tax cuts, see sources.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A03E2D6173FF930A2575BC0A9629C8B63
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/16/politics/main636398.shtml

2. Government deficit
Bush took us from a $5.6 trillion deficit to a $9 trillion deficit. Why again is he cutting the taxes for the rich again? Why is he spending an estimated trillion plus dollars in Iraq? Check out the second source for a chart showing how clinton reduced the deficit and bush pushed it back up again.
http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSN0754579020071107
http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

3. Endorsing torture
He has voted against bills banning waterboarding and other forms of torture. Torture is not even an effective interrogation technique because people will give false information to escape the pain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_George_W._Bush#Torture

4. Handling of Katrina
A Canadian search and rescue team was helping trapped residents in a new orleans suburb 5 days before the US military.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_George_W._Bush#Response_to_Hurricane_Katrina
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0908-02.htm

5. Treatment of the Enviroment
Bush has supported dumping of raw sewage into waterways, during his presidency mercury contamination has increased, toxic releases are up, and more.
http://www.nrdc.org/legislation/rollbacks/execsum.asp
http://www.nrdc.org/bushrecord/2005.asp




Edit:
I don't hate him as a person, just to clarify. He may very well have thought this was the right thing for him to do. I just strongly disagree with his policies.

From: alach11
Surely there are more tactful ways to fight terrorism than to invade an entire country and occupy it. Occupying forces are always vulnurable to terrorists and tend to be viewed in a negative light, potentially causing more problems.


Ok here's a quick breakdown of how to figure this out.
First start with the cost of the war from one of these websites. Most websites say around $500 billion to $600 billion has been spent in Iraq as of today. Estimates for the long term go as high as 3 trillion.
http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home
http://egan.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/21/the-invisible-war/?ref=opinion

Now we take $500 billion and divide it by the 8,000,000 uninsured children. Then we divide that by the $1500 a year it costs for the government to insure a child. This gives us 41.6 years of insurance for 8,000,000 children. I guess my original figure was too small.

While it is sad and I feel for those children, would it be better to have them be insured or our entire country being attacked?

From: alach11

There were terrorists in Iraq before we were there, but there weren't suicide bombings every day. If we had to get rid of Saddam couldn't we have assasinated him instead of causing so much anti-US sentiment and terrorism?
Also other estimates of civilian casualties go much higher. Some unreliable estimates as high as 600,000 and more reliable ones around 150,000.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/10/world/middleeast/10casualties.html
http://rochestercitynewspaper.com/news/articles/COST+OF+WAR:+The+Iraq+conflict+by+the+numbers+(6+4+08)/

But there were terrorists there, look at the big picture, we are fighting the War on TERROR. We are trying to uproot Terrorists wherever they may be, and we could not have just done that because it was not that simple as it being only one man.

Ok here's another poll from march 2008.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/poll/2008/0308opinion.pdf
46% of Iraqi's have "No confidence at all" in us forces compared to 4% which have a great deal of confidence.
35% think US forces have done a "very bad job" compared to 6% think we did a "very good job".
7% strongly support troop presence in Iraq versus 41% strongly oppose it.
When asked if America left Iraq today the situation would get better or worse 46% said better and 29% said worse.

Well, if they really believe that way then we should pull out…:duh: thats right! we dont want to loose the progress we have made so far! Anyone remember Vietnam? Less than 2 years after we pulled out, Saigon fell and Vietnam went into communist rule. While we may have "lost" that war, it was not our soldiers, but the people here at home (mainly politicians) who lost us that war…

From: alach11

No the war in Iraq is not the only reason I disagree with Bush. Here are a few other reasons

1. Tax cuts for the wealthy.
Bush has consistently favored the top 1% when passing tax cuts, see sources.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A03E2D6173FF930A2575BC0A9629C8B63
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/16/politics/main636398.shtml

They have the most to rebate >_<

From: alach11

2. Government deficit
Bush took us from a $5.6 trillion deficit to a $9 trillion deficit. Why again is he cutting the taxes for the rich again? Why is he spending an estimated trillion plus dollars in Iraq? Check out the second source for a chart showing how clinton reduced the deficit and bush pushed it back up again.
http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSN0754579020071107
http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

Wait, i thought it was 500 Billion we had invested in iraq? Also Bush had Katrina, 9/11, and this war. All HUGE holes for government spending… OH! and are we forgetting the fact there are THREE branches of the government? hence checks and balances? Congress had to approve the spending, you cannot blame something on one man, if you are going to blame it on anyone, you can blame it on Hillary and, Obama as well as they are a part of congress.

From: alach11

3. Endorsing torture
He has voted against bills banning waterboarding and other forms of torture. Torture is not even an effective interrogation technique because people will give false information to escape the pain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_George_W._Bush#Torture

Waterboarding is not real torture, it is giving you the sensation that you are drowning, not actually drowning you. What is torture on the other hand is pulling people's fingernails out, ripping out their teeth, and so on. We have waterboarded 2 people and both times it worked…

From: alach11

4. Handling of Katrina
A Canadian search and rescue team was helping trapped residents in a new orleans suburb 5 days before the US military.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_George_W._Bush#Response_to_Hurricane_Katrina
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0908-02.htm

You know who noone questions when it comes to Katrina? The local government, who should have been getting people out and getting people to safety. Instead their governor makes racist comments about New Orleans being a "Chocolate" city.

From: alach11

5. Treatment of the Enviroment
Bush has supported dumping of raw sewage into waterways, during his presidency mercury contamination has increased, toxic releases are up, and more.
http://www.nrdc.org/legislation/rollbacks/execsum.asp
http://www.nrdc.org/bushrecord/2005.asp

I guess he undermines his wife's efforts? http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/environment/

From: alach11

Edit:
I don't hate him as a person, just to clarify. He may very well have thought this was the right thing for him to do. I just strongly disagree with his policies.

Well thats good, kinda, and i personally dont agree with all of his policies either (we would still disagree im pretty darn sure lol)

All I searched was ''Idiot'' and this popped up http://youtube.com/watch?v=pCnjuJ1pbmc

I am sorry but alach11 has definitely got me. He just went and pulled all those numbers and several reasons and sirlaughsalot while you have several good counterpoints, I still have my personal reason of all the times he contradicts himself <see my post a little ways back> so I am slightly biased in that regard. Both of you seem to have all aspects of this argument covered, I am just here to say great job to both of you lol.

Waterboarding is not real torture, it is giving you the sensation that you are drowning, not actually drowning you. What is torture on the other hand is pulling people's fingernails out, ripping out their teeth, and so on. We have waterboarded 2 people and both times it worked…

Oh yeah, torture is:

From: dictionary.com
the deliberate, systematic, or wanton infliction of physical or mental suffering by one or more persons in an attempt to force another person to yield information or to make a confession or for any other reason

So the fact is that when you are under the sensation of drowning, they are giving you mental and physical suffering (if you do not think waterboarding causes pain, you have never looked it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding).

From: sirlaughsalot
While it is sad and I feel for those children, would it be better to have them be insured or our entire country being attacked?

Since when was Iraq going to attack us?! I thought our reason for invading was to liberate the Iraqi people? Iraq had no more connections to Osama bin Laden than any other middle eastern country.

From: sirlaughsalot
But there were terrorists there, look at the big picture, we are fighting the War on TERROR. We are trying to uproot Terrorists wherever they may be, and we could not have just done that because it was not that simple as it being only one man.

Can you win a war on terror the way we are fighting it? Even if American troops aren't responsible for bombings they end up taking the blame in the minds if Iraqi's who's families are killed.
We are creating the terrorists by occupying Iraq, like Britain created terrorists by occupying America. They think their cause is just.

From: sirlaughsalot

Well, if they really believe that way then we should pull out…:duh: thats right! we dont want to loose the progress we have made so far! Anyone remember Vietnam? Less than 2 years after we pulled out, Saigon fell and Vietnam went into communist rule. While we may have "lost" that war, it was not our soldiers, but the people here at home (mainly politicians) who lost us that war…

You're right that their opinions shouldn't be the deciding factor on war decisions. It's just there is a common misconception propagated by the media *cough* fox *cough* that the Iraqi people are thrilled that the US troops are present.

From: sirlaughsalot

They have the most to rebate >_<

what?

From: sirlaughsalot

Wait, i thought it was 500 Billion we had invested in iraq? Also Bush had Katrina, 9/11, and this war. All HUGE holes for government spending… OH! and are we forgetting the fact there are THREE branches of the government? hence checks and balances? Congress had to approve the spending, you cannot blame something on one man, if you are going to blame it on anyone, you can blame it on Hillary and, Obama as well as they are a part of congress.

First we've put 500 billion plus into Iraq as of today. Tons more money will be spent paying for veterans going to college or treatment of the wounded, reconstruction of Iraq after we leave. And the war may continue for another 8 years if McCain is elected.

As for the invasion of Iraq and Congress approval, Obama voted against the invasion, so I don't see how it's his responsibility. Also, Congress was lied to about Iraq's intentions and weapons capabilities. The Bush Administration had been advised by the CIA that there were no weapons of mass destruction but they did not tell this to congress. The administration also claimed Iraq had UAV's ready to attack us, which was untrue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#Alleged_weapons_of_mass_destruction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Resolution_to_Authorize_the_Use_of_United_States_Armed_Forces_Against_Iraq#Legality

From: sirlaughsalot

Waterboarding is not real torture, it is giving you the sensation that you are drowning, not actually drowning you. What is torture on the other hand is pulling people's fingernails out, ripping out their teeth, and so on. We have waterboarded 2 people and both times it worked…

What is torture then? Waterboarding causes extreme pain, and sometimes damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death.

Read this if you want to know a little more about our government and torture:
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/02/14/050214fa_fact6

From: sirlaughsalot

You know who noone questions when it comes to Katrina? The local government, who should have been getting people out and getting people to safety. Instead their governor makes racist comments about New Orleans being a "Chocolate" city.

The local government was completely overwhelmed by the scale of the disaster. While their effort may not have been perfect, one city doesn't have the resources to deal with a disaster of that magnitude.

From: sirlaughsalot

I guess he undermines his wife's efforts? http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/environment/

The whitehouse website is possible the least reliable source if you want unbiased information about the president.