SRL Archive - Discussions & Debates

People have told me there are many arguments for God's existance,

however, when i ask them, they give me something which sounds like this

"What was before the big bang? science cannot possibly explain our world, there must be something more, it must be God!*
Therefore God exists"

well this is an argument, but i would like to hear more arguments
i keep thinking, there must be more to it then that…

I'm going to call this argument, The argument for science's failure
I've heard this argument many times, debating about the same thing is rapidly become quite stale


Post here any other arguments, which are not the argument for science's failure.

post here and we can debate about them (fun) :)

*(notice assumption, If Theory A is wrong, Theory B must be correct)

Ok, here is the trick. There are no arguments for God's existence. There are no arguments against it either.
Anyone who claims to have one is just going to give you crap, with variations of presentation.

Crap like "God exists because I prayed for my uncle to live and he did" or "I don't see any evidence for God to exist, therefore he doesn't"

Why is this so? Simple. You are not meant to be able to prove there is a God. Plain and simple. For thoes who do (like me) it's as plain as day. You see it in every blade of grass, in nature, in beautiy, and in your soul you feel it. But this is not something you can really communicate or show. I have a personal testimony that God exists, and I have recived personal revelations and communication with him; But the nature of all of these things are personal, I can not make you feel or understand what I do, this is something you must do for yourself.

That's how all of this is. Proof that God exists or not is a personal thing that only you can know. That's where it resides. Some people take what other's believe, and believe them. Most kids raised in the church believe in God because their parents do, and they trust their parents, therefore that is proof. Some have a personal proof of his existence, some don't.

Your own testimony or other's is the closest thing to prove or disprove God that you will find. Sorry it makes for such bad argumentative material, but that's just how it is meant to be.

@Yakman, the argument for God that you show is also flawed and not explainable by God or religion, "What was there before God?" there, broken.

@Yakman, no, there really is nothing more to it. It would break the whole point of faith if there was any way at all to prove God's existance or not.

@Yakman, concerning science failure. Well, seince we are human, and science is really a religion founded by the more physical and tangible truths, the only way I can show sciences failure, is with science. Lucky enough, that's pretty easy. Science is constantly being changed. Truths that were accepted before are being found out to not be true now. The more evidence you see, the more we see how much science was wrong before. Earth isn't flat, atoms are not non-divisible, etc.

Ahaha, we had a thread like this nearly a year ago :p. Didnt turn out to well :).

-Reserved for Later.

Reserved.

I don't really believe in god because I lack proof btw and I don't think this thread will turn out very well either.

whats with all the reserving?

all you guys saying it might not turn out well…
what could possibly go wrong… we're over the internet, its impossible to stab or shoot someone this way…

we argue like men, with the spoken (or written) word :)

1) Human reasoning is inherently flawed. Therefore there is no reasonable way to challenge a proposition.
2) I propose God Exists
3) Therefore, God Exists.

seriously though… it all comes down to your faith. I believe because that is how i grew up. I know there are good arguments out there, but I don't know them. I don't believe in the big bang but neither do I believe the earth was created in 7 days. I believe that "day" is actually meaning era or long period of time. I also am ok at disproving some facts that people say are untrue about God, but I am not the best as this.

For example: People say, "Well I can't believe in a God that would make people that go to a hell."

The truth is, he doesn't make anyone go to hell. You have the choice.

I can't make anyone believe, but I can try to help them, if they want.

From: Yakman
whats with all the reserving?

all you guys saying it might not turn out well…
what could possibly go wrong… we're over the internet, its impossible to stab or shoot someone this way…

we argue like men, with the spoken (or written) word :)

You have to note that half believe in God and half don't.
not only that most people here age 12-14. lol.

As long as the argument stays calm and everything then i see nothing wrong, but hatred often comes from this agrument so i don't think it's the best idea.

i'll post my thoughts later..Edit: I believe in God, but not just because our world is complex.

From: SKy Scripter
You have to note that half believe in God and half don't.
not only that most people here age 12-14. lol.

As long as the argument stays calm and everything then i see nothing wrong, but hatred often comes from this agrument so i don't think it's the best idea.

i'll post my thoughts later.. But i don't believe in god because our world has so much complicated things

Perhaps it would be a good idea to have the "Move thread" button at the ready? :p

By "complicated things", do you mean there's so much Sin in the world? That's not God's fault. It's humans' imperfection.

Yeah, until Magog (Russia, Kazhakstan(or pakistan I can't remember), and possibly Turkey) attack Israel, I don't think God will interfere with sin, except by having Christians convert people. Even if you don't believe, it's still interesting to read about the Rapture and the Tribulation and the Beasts.

From: Hugolord
I don't really believe in god because I lack proof

Fair enough.

From: SkyScripter
But i don't believe in god because our world has so much complicated things

Completely invalid. I could come right back and say "I belive in God because our world has so much complicated things"

From: ItsJustMe
1) Human reasoning is inherently flawed. Therefore there is no reasonable way to challenge a proposition.
2) I propose God Exists
3) Therefore, God Exists.

Unfortunatly this means nothing for proof. To anyone other than you, it is self contradictory, as what you said is flawed human reason therefore invalid.

From: ItsJustMe
I believe because that is how i grew up. I know there are good arguments out there, but I don't know them.

Sorry to disapoint you, but there really arent any. Read my post above. But at least you give the proof of which why you believe. Who ever raised you's testimony. legit. The rest of your post is just disproving other arguments against and stuff. It's not proof that he exists, just ways to stop other's flawed logic.

Oh, and I have already noticed that the conversation is starting to spiral out from what yakman said it was suposed to be about. To uphold integredy, please check yourself.

fair enough, but I am believing in God, because there is also no solid proof that he doesn't exist

also, i just don't want to disappear when I die. I want the glories of what God has promised. if he doesn't exist, I at least know I led a good life.

And also, how can life come from no life? Where did animal and plant life come from? Science has proved tat life cannot arise from nonlife. This is also a reason to believe

Also, lordgreggreg you got my name wrong :D

From: LordGregGreg
Ok, here is the trick. There are no arguments for God's existence. There are no arguments against it either.

There is no proof the tooth fairy exists, there is no proof the tooth fairy does not exist.
Therefore the tooth fairy exists.

Russel's teapot, Russel's teapot, Russel's teapot
There is no proof that Russel's teapot exists, there is no proof that Russel's teapot does not exist.
Therefore Russel's teapot exists.

….. get my drift here?

also, you might want to google "Russel's teapot", it really is a fascinating topic

From: LordGregGreg

For thoes who do (like me) it's as plain as day. You see it in every blade of grass, in nature, in beautiy, and in your soul you feel it.

I would like to point out that, X is beautiful does not imply X is true.

Wouldn't it be so beautiful if the world was made in 6 days, so simple, so elegant,
alas, it is not true

Wouldn't it be so beautiful if These women were true, alas, they were made with photoshop, in real life they look really ugly.

From: LordGregGreg

But the nature of all of these things are personal, I can not make you feel or understand what I do, this is something you must do for yourself.
That's how all of this is. Proof that God exists or not is a personal thing that only you can know.

i fail to see how this is valid, lets take the example of politics,
people are perfectly entitled to debate and argue about which political party is better, they can do this all day long, and no-one gets offended or anything,
I don't see how God has this special status where you cannot communicate it to others,

If Shakespeare said "I cannot communicate my grief to others", we would never have had Hamlet.

If Lionel Richie said "I cannot communicate my hurt", we would never have had many of his songs.

From: LordGregGreg

@Yakman, concerning science failure. Well, seince we are human, and science is really a religion founded by the more physical and tangible truths, the only way I can show sciences failure, is with science. Lucky enough, that's pretty easy. Science is constantly being changed. Truths that were accepted before are being found out to not be true now. The more evidence you see, the more we see how much science was wrong before. Earth isn't flat, atoms are not non-divisible, etc.

science is not a religion, because science is based on evidence, whereas religion is based on belief dispite the evidence.

if all the evidence in the world said that God existed, i would be the first to admit it,

science gets things wrong, but there is no shame in that,

you can take the example of the shape of the earth,
people used to believe the earth was flat, because when you look at the horizon, it appears straight, that was the evidence.

however, someone used the argument that when you look at a ship sailing towards you over the horizon, you first see its crow's nest, then you see its sails, then you see its hull. the only explanation for this was that the earth was a sphere.

the people who said the earth was flat did not get in a big huff and mindlessly stick to their belief, they simple said, "Oh, thats a very good point, i see the earth is round, and i made a mistake before"

later, someone might find evidence that the earth is not a sphere,
Actually, Newton did find evidence, his calculations show that the earth is not a true sphere, but a sphere slightly flattened at the poles



this is great guys, keep it up! :)

From: isjusme
fair enough, but I am believing in God, because there is also no solid proof that he doesn't exist
also, i just don't want to disappear when I die. I want the glories of what God has promised. if he doesn't exist, I at least know I led a good life.

fair enough, :) Liek i said, theres no proof against or for god, which makes yor argument pretty nutural, but yeah, at least religion makes you some promises, better safe than sorry right? lol.

Oh, i was talking to Jason2gs, he showed me something pretty cool.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion

now i know that carbon dating is kinda iffy, and that you can take this however you can, and conjour up a sciencetific goddles background for it. But I still think its prety cool, and pretty ironic. if your not looking for proof, check it out :)

From: LordGregGreg


Oh, i was talking to ibedabigdogg, he showed me something pretty cool.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion
:)

too much to read lol, i saw explosion and i was like "OMG AWESOME SAUCE"
but then i saw how many subarticles… ew no thanks

but seriously read some stuff from this site oops wrong site lol well I can't find it, but it was cool.

From: Yakman
There is no proof the tooth fairy exists, there is no proof the tooth fairy does not exist.
Therefore the tooth fairy exists.
Russel's teapot, Russel's teapot, Russel's teapot
There is no proof that Russel's teapot exists, there is no proof that Russel's teapot does not exist.
Therefore Russel's teapot exists.

ok, you almost got my point. Yes, you are right about the tooth fairy. And I really can not prove she doesnt exist, other than using other peoples testimonys, or my own. (and yeah, even after all of that she may). So seince i dont have a personal testimony, and no one who i credit does either, i do not belive the tooth fairy exists. (nor is there any science proof either)

From: Yakman

I would like to point out that, X is beautiful does not imply X is true.

:) I told you stright out before that this was not an argument or proof for you. It's to hard to explain, far to personal really. It's not a valid argument at all, like i said. It's part of my own testimony, that I see and understand, and unfrotunatly (or not?) it can't be valid for anyone else.

From: Yakman

I don't see how God has this special status where you cannot communicate it to others

yeah, i know it may seem quite annoying. But that's really just how it has got to be. Faith is prety important to understanding this stuff, and if i could comuncate (prove) god to you, it would just make it worthless.

From: Yakman

If Shakespeare said "I cannot communicate my grief to others", we would never have had Hamlet.

oh, sorry, you twist my words. Yes, i can try to comunicate god to you, but i absoltuly defamentalty can not prove it. It just cant be done. I can try to show you how it feels, but its not as simple as an emotion like grief or hurt. Shakespeaer and Lionel can comunicate thoes because it is an extension of stuff that we already feel. If you are talking to someone who has never felt grief before, they would look at you crazy if you try to explain it.

From: Yakman

science is not a religion,

ok

From: Yakman
religion is based on belief dispite the evidence.

invalid. Complelty. Where is the evidence against? you didnt mention any..

From: Yakman


if all the evidence in the world said that God existed, i would be the first to admit it,

only a fool wouldnt. but we both know that phjysicaly on a factual level, none of it ever will.

From: Yakman


science gets things wrong, but there is no shame in that,

not saying there is, just answering your bold question up top.

i can prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist.

that skank ain't give me no money last few times/

From: isjusme
i can prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist.

that skank ain't give me no money last few times/

exactly :) your own personal experience. I happen to have recently had a little interview with all of myfriends, they provide similar evidence, along with parental confesions that previous proof was really people they knew posing as imposters.

From: isjusme
fair enough, but I am believing in God, because there is also no solid proof that he doesn't exist

this has been covered, see some posts before mine,

From: isjusme

if he doesn't exist, I at least know I led a good life.

you're are saying there, "It's better to be safe then sorry"

"if i don't believe in god, the best thing that can happen is that im right, the worst that can happen is i go to hell"
"if i do believe in god, the best thing that can happen is i go to heaven, the worst is that i was mistaken all my life"

this is flawed because you can't actually choose what you believe in,
you can go to church every sunday, you can swear on a holy book that you believe every word inside them,
in short, you can say you believe it,

but if its a deception, as your words lead me to believe, then God will surely see straight through you argument, and condemn you to hell for not believing in him.


there is another thing here, how is it that the best way to make God happy is to believe in him?
i would think the best way is to fight and die for him, to donate 70% of your income to his church and to spread your religion to those closest to you.

but no, it seems only believing in him is enough.

what happens if theres someone at the gates of heaven, and they are saying "I'm sorry God, i tried to believe in you, i really tried, but i just couldn't"

what happens to this person?


there is this serious and widespread misconception that you can choose your own belief
(which should maybe be a topic for another thread)

From: isjusme

And also, how can life come from no life? Where did animal and plant life come from? This is also a reason to believe

this is a powerful argument, and in the ancient and medival
scientists have explained this without involving God. you can easily go to any library or school and read about it yourself.
this is only a valid argument for the ignorant (all due respect meant)

for example, plant and animal life evolved gradually from earlier life forms, which were neither plant nor animal.

From: isjusme

Science has proved tat life cannot arise from nonlife.

which science is this? i suggest you read over it again, its likely you interpreted it wrongly.
with all due respect, it sounds like another made-up fact.

From: Yakman
this has been covered, see some posts before mine,



you're are saying there, "It's better to be safe then sorry"

"if i don't believe in god, the best thing that can happen is that im right, the worst that can happen is i go to hell"
"if i do believe in god, the best thing that can happen is i go to heaven, the worst is that i was mistaken all my life"

this is flawed because you can't actually choose what you believe in,
you can go to church every sunday, you can swear on a holy book that you believe every word inside them,
in short, you can say you believe it,

but if its a deception, as your words lead me to believe, then God will surely see straight through you argument, and condemn you to hell for not believing in him.

I don't think i put my point across… and I think you are mistaking. If you ask for forgiveness through Jesus, you go to heaven.

What I meant was, IF he doesn't exist, I never said i don't believe. Everyone has doubts sometimes, and if you say you don't, then you lie, because you have or will. It is the way of the flesh.

God doesn't condemn you to hell for not believing in Him. He does it for not asking for forgiveness of sins, it's just that if you don't believe, you probably won't ask.

There were still life forms, but how did they get life? what "sparked" it? In the beginning of the big bang there was no life, so where did it come from?

What Science you ask? Louis Pasteur proved that Life cannot come from Nonlife.

@Yakman

I would like to point out that, X is beautiful does not imply X is true.

Wouldn't it be so beautiful if the world was made in 6 days, so simple, so elegant,
alas, it is not true

Wouldn't it be so beautiful if These women were true, alas, they were made with photoshop, in real life they look really ugly.

That is EXACTLY how I see it and @ isjustme, why would you believe something just for the sake of "why not believing it" ?

I mean then you can just i dunno make some other crap up like the toothfary and also I don't see why god became so popular (lol) I mean ok.. he might have been crucified and been a very good guy but that's basically it..

since there is no proof that he came back from the dead..

From: Hugolord




I mean then you can just i dunno make some other crap up like the toothfary and also I don't see why god became so popular (lol) I mean ok.. he might have been crucified and been a very good guy but that's basically it..

since there is no proof that he came back from the dead..

there is proof, Hundreds of people saw him die, and at least 500 people saw him after he rose, and his tomb is empty. You cannot say "they had the wrong tomb" The tomb Jesus was buried in was a very well known tomb and owned by a well known man, they wouldn't have gotten the location wrong.

I don't know where you got, Just for the sake of believing in it. Maybe i worded something wrong without noticing, too lazy to go back and check. I believe because I love him, that's how I was raised, and I don't want to go to hell.

http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c350/r0b0t1/?action=view¤t=Picture1.png

religion |riˈlijən|
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods : ideas about the relationship between science and religion.
• details of belief as taught or discussed : when the school first opened they taught only religion, Italian, and mathematics.
• a particular system of faith and worship : the world's great religions.
• a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance : consumerism is the new religion.

http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c350/r0b0t1/?action=view¤t=Picture2.png

Religion


"Religious" redirects here. For a member of a religious community, see Religious order.
For the 1997 studio album by British rock band Spear of Destiny, see Religion (Spear of Destiny album).
A religion is a set of beliefs and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.

The first is from whatever dictionary is built in to MacOS, most likely a pretty reliable one because you've paid for it. The second is from Wikipedia, a reliable source although very rarely someone will edit it to their desires (the Vatican and many US agencies).

The point is it is a belief – there really is no proof to either side. This argument will continue to spin around and around as each side inevitably says that the other side has no proof and must be accepted in turn, because there is no proof against it.

Another thing that goes along with the Celestial Teapot is the fact that propaganda does in fact work. It may not be an original idea, but it is entirely possible that religion could be an attempt to control masses of people simply because you cannot disprove it.

I personally think that Hillary Clinton will be more of a threat to controlling people. Think about it: Free health care from a woman who's husband cheated on her… obviously an attempt to control all men so no man will ever cheat again. Whenever a man goes in for a checkup, they will insert a chip into the person, and when darth hillary gives order 66 they will do anything she says.

From: isjusme
there is proof, Hundreds of people saw him die, and at least 500 people saw him after he rose, and his tomb is empty. You cannot say "they had the wrong tomb" The tomb Jesus was buried in was a very well known tomb and owned by a well known man, they wouldn't have gotten the location wrong.

someone had to listen to these people and write down what they saw,

they they write it down neutrally? or did they have an agenda that coloured their writing?

any historian will tell you, you need many many sources to back up a story,
and historians have looked at many other sources, and they blatantly contradict the bible.

it is completely wrong to treat the bible as an accurate historical or scientific textbook,

From: Yakman
someone had to listen to these people and write down what they saw,

they they write it down neutrally? or did they have an agenda that coloured their writing?

i'm not sure of what you mean by write it down neutrally, do you mean like just some random witness or something?

anyway, there really is no point to this arguing, obviously nobody is swaying the other side. I'm out.

sigh. I don't even know where to begin. I've already pretty much ended. I supose all there is left to do is disprove the people who think they are proving something.

Yakman, i think you have said this twice now, so it must be pretty critical to you.

From: yakman
[person on judgement day]and they are saying "I'm sorry God, i tried to believe in you, i really tried, but i just couldn't"

I am not sure what you are trying to prove here… Perhaps sujesting religion is unjust to people who are unable to believe? Or perhaps saying that all a religion is about is believing. Still not sure what your getting at, but I can give you an answer to your question. I actually prayed about it and this is what I felt. I know that God will never expect you to do something you are incapable of. And I know that God is 100% just, therefore, if this scenario that you describe does happen, then they would be accepted into heaven with open arms. However, I think that anyone with a soul is capable in beliving. Granted, beliving in things not seen is hard, but I think it is possible by everyone.

From: isjusme
there is proof, Hundreds of people saw him die, and at least 500 people saw him after he rose,

Please think about how weak your argument is before you say it. 500 people that I have no reason to trust. We are talking around 2000 years ago where the only record is documents that have defanitly been tampered with. We are talking uber weak proof.

and yakman is 100% right, the bible in itself is not right. The people who wrote and re-wrote it all had agendas and bias of their own. If you don't read it with insight you have a pretty good risk of getting garbage out of it.

From: Robot
His whole post

Yes! Thank you, 100% on the dot. Ftw. Everyone else, read it.

From: isjusme

anyway, there really is no point to this arguing, obviously nobody is swaying the other side. I'm out.

yep, you get it too, gz.

there is a lot of point in arguing,
it helps your formulate your ideas, and to think about life more critically,
also it helps to rally people who agree with you, just in case they feel like giving up, it can help them when they remember there are others like them.

and occasionally, very occasionally, people do change their religion because of it,
please dont go around saying, "all of this is pointness, no-one ever changed their mind", they do, I've seen it happen,
and changing people's mind isnt the only reason to debate


@R0b0t, you say there is no proof either side, that doesnt mean the debate should just stop,
there are many things that have no "proof" either way, in those cases, you look for arguments for and against,

for example, theres the idea that gases are made up of a large number of particles, with relatively large amounts of empty space between them.
there is no proof either way for this idea, but you can construct convincing arguments for and against,
an argument for, is that you can compress a gas a lot,
an argument against, is that this compression could just mean the particles are very soft,

probably the only time you'll find actual proof for something is in mathematical theorems, like actual proof that there is an infinite amount of prime numbers.

so lets come up with convincing arguments for and against the existence of god.

im not that good at debating and probably will get torn apart, but here i go anyways.

First, lets get the cold, hard facts down because I know you guys like those. Historically there really was a man named Jesus Christ. This has been proven. He went around preaching saying he was the Son of God and starting his own ministry. He was also put to death on the cross, for not denying he was the Son of God. He was put to death with 2 other people on each side of him, they were theifs, getting put to death. I forgot the number but a TON of people went to Jesus's tomb 3 days earlier, and there was no body. This would explain that he rose to Heaven and would come back.

Now, on to what i believe and when i tell you you wont believe me anyways, but whatever. My dad had a friend who died twice on the operating table from a heart attack. The doctors brought him back alive both times, he was dead for 10 minutes total. He told me that he went to Heaven. He told me that God and Jesus looked " like they were from Jerlusum(sp?)". Dark skinned etc. He told me everyone was getting along etc and it was beautiful.

it is also faith. When i pray i know there is someone there watching over me, i can feel it. The Bible is also a very interesting book, heres an internet verison. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=6&version=31
i dont know about you but that seems wayyyy to complicated for just somebody to make up.

From: isjusme
there is proof, Hundreds of people saw him die, and at least 500 people saw him after he rose, and his tomb is empty. You cannot say "they had the wrong tomb" The tomb Jesus was buried in was a very well known tomb and owned by a well known man, they wouldn't have gotten the location wrong.

I don't know where you got, Just for the sake of believing in it. Maybe i worded something wrong without noticing, too lazy to go back and check. I believe because I love him, that's how I was raised, and I don't want to go to hell.

sorry for the double post but NEVER believe in God just because you want to go to Heaven not Hell. Believing in God alone will not get you to Heaven.

There are many arguments I have. One of mine isn't really an arguement, but it is the main reason why I don't believe in the Christian god or any other gods. When I was 6, my mother passed away, she was in her mid 30's and cherishing life, my father was left to raise me on his own. I turned out okay, and he is now happily remarried, but I want to know, why? Why did god let her die? I mean, we weren't the most religious family, but we weren't identified as heretics..

And what father would let his son die? and in such a horrific way.

From: andrewrox424
There are many arguments I have. One of mine isn't really an arguement, but it is the main reason why I don't believe in the Christian god or any other gods. When I was 6, my mother passed away, she was in her mid 30's and cherishing life, my father was left to raise me on his own. I turned out okay, and he is now happily remarried, but I want to know, why? Why did god let her die? I mean, we weren't the most religious family, but we weren't identified as heretics..

And what father would let his son die? and in such a horrific way.

you have to understand, everybody sins. The only man to walk the Earth that didnt sin is Jesus Christ himself. every time we sin it hurts God but Jesus died on the cross to forgive us of our sins. No one is innocent. we are all sinners. Plain and simple.

From: oliver1205
i dont know about you but that seems wayyyy to complicated for just somebody to make up.

its not too complicated, if you ever read book by gore vidal or charles dickens, they are also complicated,
if you ever read a high level physics textbook, that gets quite complicated as well,
also if you ever read about the internal workings of a computer, and how to write a kernel, thats quite complicated as well
the bible could have easily been written by men (or women)

also, just because its interesting, does not make it true. On that basis, we should worship harry potter :P

From: oliver1205
Believing in God alone will not get you to Heaven.

i think his point was if you don't believe in God, its a sure way to go to hell, you cannot go to heaven without believing in God.




as for those personal experiences, could it be that your dad's friend was hallucinating, or the drugs they give him went to his brain,
also, if he wasn't going to die, God knew this, so why did he go up to heaven for a short while?

also, how can you feel someone watching over you, when someone watches you, they see light that has reflected off you and gone into their eyes,
the only way you can know if they are watching you, is if you also watch them.

so could you just explain this "feeling", which you apparently didn't sense with any of your 5 senses.

ok ill try to explain it. Its starts its mt stomach like a burning sensation, but it just feels awesome. idk its really hard to explain

From: Jason2gs

By "complicated things", do you mean there's so much Sin in the world? That's not God's fault. It's humans' imperfection.

From: LordGregGreg
Fair enough.
Completely invalid. I could come right back and say "I belive in God because our world has so much complicated things"

when i said "
But i don't believe in god because our world has so much complicated things"

I meant.
I do believe in God, but i don't believe in him over just saying our world is so complicated things. Such as the eye.
sorry, i was tired :).

From: oliver1205
I forgot the number but a TON of people went to Jesus's tomb 3 days earlier, and there was no body. This would explain that he rose to Heaven and would come back.

Okay, yea i am not good at debating, but i have a question, if Jesus rose from his tomb, why would his whole body go? Wouldn't just his spirit? The people on earth who die, and say they go to heaven, their body's are still in their coffin, why would Jess's whole body go?

From: oliver1205
ok ill try to explain it. Its starts its mt stomach like a burning sensation, but it just feels awesome. idk its really hard to explain

That's called thought, hope, fear, relief…

You think about God and when you think about him you think that will make you feel reassured hence you feel relief you feel.. good..

It is thought..

I can be scared of i dunno.. er.. spiders.. this huge tarantula comes real close to me and you FEEL scared

or when you are waiting for that Christmas present just before you open it you feel something.. these are all brain thoughts..

I never said (I think) that this argument should end. I simply said we will probably never get a conclusion relevant to the topic and body of the question, which is whether God exists (Well, its pretty much your question – in reverse).

There are multiple theories on both sides, yet each one disproves each other constantly. The problem is such as if one is true, the other must not be true and can not be true (at least at the same time).


Thus, unless otherwise proven, I believe the answer is you must prove it to yourself. Since there is no proof for either side totally, it could be either or none.

@oliver - sounds like an orgasm…

From: isjusme
there is proof, Hundreds of people saw him die, and at least 500 people saw him after he rose, and his tomb is empty. You cannot say "they had the wrong tomb" The tomb Jesus was buried in was a very well known tomb and owned by a well known man, they wouldn't have gotten the location wrong.

I don't know where you got, Just for the sake of believing in it. Maybe i worded something wrong without noticing, too lazy to go back and check. I believe because I love him, that's how I was raised, and I don't want to go to hell.

You are assuming that all these people wrote down there account immediately, leaving no time for forgetfulness or anything. You are assuming that no one lied. You are assuming that these people were actually there – just because you write or record or testify about something, doesn’t mean that you were actually there. The fact that hundreds of people saw him die, very nice, a man died, but there are only 500 people who saw him after he rose – which is the important part – and you have to figure out how many of those 500 people’s testimonies are accurate. Also, what is to stop anyone from tampering with written records, anyone can take a little scroll, read it, change some wording, and republish it. Anyone between those 500 people and today (including those 500 people) could have had agendas or biases of there own to influence their writing.

From: oliver1205

it is also faith. When i pray i know there is someone there watching over me, i can feel it. The Bible is also a very interesting book, heres an internet verison. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=6&version=31
i dont know about you but that seems wayyyy to complicated for just somebody to make up.

Here is the thing about the Bible. A single person did not write it, it was many people “inspired by God” and therefore would not be too complex to make up. Also, you may say, well if all these people have the same views, doesn’t that point to stronger evidence. Well the answer to that is a clear no, and here is why. In the Bible, it is divided into “gospels” each written by a different person. It is a well-known fact that there are MANY other gospels (not all of them are at all true or accurate, but a good number have just as much authenticity as the ones in the Bible). Many of these gospels as well as many within the Bible itself have contradicting passages.

From: andrewrox424
There are many arguments I have. One of mine isn't really an arguement, but it is the main reason why I don't believe in the Christian god or any other gods. When I was 6, my mother passed away, she was in her mid 30's and cherishing life, my father was left to raise me on his own. I turned out okay, and he is now happily remarried, but I want to know, why? Why did god let her die? I mean, we weren't the most religious family, but we weren't identified as heretics..

And what father would let his son die? and in such a horrific way.

For any number of reasons. God is God and therefore we are not able to understand how he thinks and how he makes decisions and how he works. Perhaps it was to test your faith. Perhaps because your new mother will tell you a particular thing that will change your life. The butterfly effect is constantly in motion in the world around us and only God can see the whole picture (if you think he exists, that is).

From: badandymitch
Okay, yea i am not good at debating, but i have a question, if Jesus rose from his tomb, why would his whole body go? Wouldn't just his spirit? The people on earth who die, and say they go to heaven, their body's are still in their coffin, why would Jess's whole body go?

Good question that no one answered. Here is what the answer is according to Christian beliefs (correct me if I am wrong): This is because while any human can go to heaven in spirit, only the extremely holy and pious go with there body (aka resurrection). The only people who have done this are Jesus, Mary (the virgin mother) and MAYBE Saint Peter (not sure on that one, but I thought there was a third).

This argument is pointless

I think there is great purpose in this debate. For those who believe in God, every argument against your beliefs that you overcome is just strengthening your faith. For those who don’t believe in God, you are practicing debating and critical thinking skills and perhaps you will learn something that can change your life.

Just wanted to first say that everything in Science is a theory or hypothesis and not a fact. Fact is a word given to something that is true, but nothing can be completely true if it is in our world/dimension/universe etc.
Religion has survived for thousands of years because of lack of proof against it. It is impossible to disprove or prove God's existence with physical material, therefore it is impossible to prove a hypothesis valid. In this instance it is a matter of opinion rather than a fact, thus my post rolls together :)

I know I brought nothing to the table, but when the table is thousands of years old and crumbling beneath us, it would just be on the floor in minutes anyway :p

No-one has mentioned the sightings/visions/apparitions of Virgin Mary.

From: mixster
Just wanted to first say that everything in Science is a theory or hypothesis and not a fact. Fact is a word given to something that is true, but nothing can be completely true if it is in our world/dimension/universe etc.

the difference is, that science has much evidence in favour of it, but religion has much less

Like someone said that gravity can influence light, making it bend
Someone else made an observation during an eclipse of the sun, and notice how two stars appear to move,
This is a evidence of the theory that gravity can bend light.
are you saying we should take this theory equally seriously as the God Theory?

there is the theory of motion, mostly come up with by Issac Newton, and there is a lot of evidence that it works, people use it to calculate how to control a spacecraft so it can reach mars,
but its still only a theory, and by your logic, it should be taken equally seriously as the theory that things move because they have a life force in them…


btw, in mathematics, things can be completely proven,
like the formula
a^n + b^n = c^n
has been proved that there are no solutions when n is bigger then 2
in other parts if science, its a theory

From: mixster

Religion has survived for thousands of years because of lack of proof against it. It is impossible to disprove or prove God's existence with physical material, therefore it is impossible to prove a hypothesis valid. In this instance it is a matter of opinion rather than a fact, thus my post rolls together :)
:p

I believe in the Invisble Pink Unicorn! and its impossible to disprove it,
by your logic, this idea should survive for thousands of years

religion only survives because it is shamelessly hammered into children every sunday,

religion and science are competing theories, one has much more evidence then the other, in any other situation, religion would have been discarded, but it stubbornly persists,

My personal favorite religion is The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It is (obviously) a mock religion, but for anyone that has not read it follow the link. It makes several extremely good points, is absolutely hilarious, and proves that the decline of pirates is causing global warming…. Good luck out there…

ok ok ok lol im gunna keep this short as im lasy else it would be a massive rant

piont 1
before the big bang there was hydrogen compacted realy tightly with a very large density almost infinitum b4 that is what we have now b4 that is the tight ball again and so on and so on into a chicken/egg idea

piont 2 i cant prove that god doesnt exist

but

can god make a pizza so hot that he cant eat it

if yes then he is not all powerfull

if no then he is not all powerfull

From: Yakman
religion only survives because it is shamelessly hammered into children every sunday,

religion and science are competing theories, one has much more evidence then the other, in any other situation, religion would have been discarded, but it stubbornly persists,

You're forgetting that while religion is 'hammered' into children every Sunday, the hypothesis of Evolution is 'hammered' into children every weekday in school.

How can you say one has more evidence than the other? If what I read in my textbook was correct, just about every piece of evidence you have for Evolution is, as best, unconfirmed.

If not, then please, put forth your evidence. We'll study it, judge it, and, if possible, shoot it down without remorse.

(Because, isn't that what you're supposed to do in this type of debate?)

-Mike

From: Jason2gs
You're forgetting that while religion is 'hammered' into children every Sunday, the hypothesis of Evolution is 'hammered' into children every weekday in school.

How can you say one has more evidence than the other? If what I read in my textbook was correct, just about every piece of evidence you have for Evolution is, as best, unconfirmed.

If not, then please, put forth your evidence. We'll study it, judge it, and, if possible, shoot it down without remorse.

(Because, isn't that what you're supposed to do in this type of debate?)

-Mike

No evidence for evolution?!?!

Well, once upon a time (12 February 1809 – 19 April 1882 actually) there was a man named Charles Darwin. He came up with the theory of evolution and the idea of natural selection. I will give you some links to some reading.

If you are only going to read one, read this: http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm

Nice easy one on wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
Really good one here that does some explaining: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
www.darwins-theory-of-evolution.com/
www.conservapedia.com/Theory_of_Evolution
www.spaceandmotion.com/Charles-Darwin-Theory-Evolution.htm
www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/evolution.html
www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

If you want more I can get you many, many, many more…

From: Dusk412
No evidence for evolution?!?!

Well, once upon a time (12 February 1809 – 19 April 1882 actually) there was a man named Charles Darwin. He came up with the theory of evolution and the idea of natural selection. I will give you some links to some reading.

If you are only going to read one, read this: http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm

Nice easy one on wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
Really good one here that does some explaining: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
www.darwins-theory-of-evolution.com/
www.conservapedia.com/Theory_of_Evolution
www.spaceandmotion.com/Charles-Darwin-Theory-Evolution.htm
www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/evolution.html
www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

If you want more I can get you many, many, many more…

Mate, I came here to debate you. Not a college professor. If I wanted you to throw a bunch of links at me, I would have asked.

Just because you can search Google and copy and paste a bunch of links, doesn't mean you actually understand any of this.

well you asked for proof and there it is. It's not like I discovered it myself. I mean usually that is how you proove things is by citing information. You want me to give you a book or a magazine article or something?

And clearly you do not understand what YOU are talking about if you think there is no evidence for evolution. I came here for a knowledgeable debate to, so make sure you know what you are talking about before saying anything…

From: Dusk412
well you asked for proof and there it is. It's not like I discovered it myself. I mean usually that is how you proove things is by citing information. You want me to give you a book or a magazine article or something?

And clearly you do not understand what YOU are talking about if you think there is no evidence for evolution. I came here for a knowledgeable debate to, so make sure you know what you are talking about before saying anything…

I don't mind you giving me things to read, but don't make that all you give me. Give me some of your own words, and I'll be happy to have a sensible argument with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

(Couldn't resist.)

Oh, in that case… I was citing a reference as well. My biology book.

One area where science has failed is… there is no proof on how the universe could of possibly started because of the amount of hellium in the sun and universe… thats how we orignally came up with the bigbang… The original theory was that universe started as a big clump of hydrogen (I think). and formed together to make giant starts which eventually made every element of the world.

I think string theory might come into the starting existence of the universe but it looks like it's coming to a dead end from my point of view… 11 dimensions sounds so fake… and there are also 5 different types of string theory…

My brother is studying advance science in uni… maybe I could probably ask him later…

From: Yakman

religion only survives because it is shamelessly hammered into children every sunday

it was not hammered into me as a child or now adays. I don't need people to tell me what to believe, that normaly causes me to almost imidatly regect it. I found out what I know on my own.

and yeah, your pink unicorn or flying spagetti monster is just peachy. But its doesnt survive?! I wonder why? It's simple. I get a real answer to my prayrs, and I feel something that is undenable proof to me. I don't apreciate stuff like that made to just mock my belief. You claim that there is a relation, but that is only because you do not understand. You see things with your own eyes, and then decide that is all there is. So sure, in your eyes, your unicorn and my god are the same, and taking them seriously is just insanity. You just don't see the full picture.

From: Orbital
One area where science has failed is… there is no proof on how the universe could of possibly started because of the amount of hellium in the sun and universe… thats how we orignally came up with the bigbang… The original theory was that universe started as a big clump of hydrogen (I think). and formed together to make giant starts which eventually made every element of the world.

I think string theory might come into the starting existence of the universe but it looks like it's coming to a dead end from my point of view… 11 dimensions sounds so fake… and there are also 5 different types of string theory…

My brother is studying advance science in uni… maybe I could probably ask him later…

science hasnt failed us. Do you know how long it took us to figure out e = mc^2? It wasnt until Einstein came along and figured it out that we had that. If science wasnt evolving, then we wouldnt be having smaller, thinner TV's and more and more fuel efficient cars. Just because we cant explain something right this second doesnt mean that science has failed us or that it cant be figured out. On the other hand, theists have been believing in the same thing for thousands of years and havent gotten any more evidence of anything in that time.

one of the big problems i find with people that believe in God, is that they believe that we were created specially. What would they say if we found evidence of life somewhere else? wouldn't that be contradictory to the Bible?
or if life on earth ceased to exist. What would happen? time would keep going, and then what? would God get bored and make more humans? Which brings up the other question of could this have happened before; humans were created, they got smarter and blew themselves up, repeat. In which case God doesnt love us very much if we are so disposable. "life is so worthless, every time you take a breath, countless others take their last breath"

From: isjusme
there is proof, Hundreds of people saw him die, and at least 500 people saw him after he rose, and his tomb is empty. You cannot say "they had the wrong tomb" The tomb Jesus was buried in was a very well known tomb and owned by a well known man, they wouldn't have gotten the location wrong.

That doesnt prove anything. This happened thousands of years ago. And who's to say that any of this even happened. IT could have been a work of fiction.(i personally dont think it was, but im trying to say that the Bible doesnt prove anything.

I have lots of other stuff to say, so someone give me something to debate about :)

how did mathew john luke mark …… write all the storys they where all ilive at different times none of them are actually first hand encounters

From: Dan Cardin
humans were created, they got smarter and blew themselves up, repeat. In which case God doesnt love us very much if we are so disposable. "life is so worthless, every time you take a breath, countless others take their last breath"

There is evidence of this in the Bible, actually. Very little, but your theory does hold water:

From: Ecclesiastes 1:9
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

You may also want to look at Genesis 1:26-28 and Genesis 2:4-8.

From: Genesis 1:26-28
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

From: Genesis 2:4-8
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Personally, I think He's just reiterating what happened, the second time focusing more on the creation of Man. That's just my opinion, though. Take it however you want :)

Although, I don't see how this plays a part on God loving us. Care to explain?

From: LordGregGreg
it was not hammered into me as a child or now adays. I don't need people to tell me what to believe, that normaly causes me to almost imidatly regect it. I found out what I know on my own.

and yeah, your pink unicorn or flying spagetti monster is just peachy. But its doesnt survive?! I wonder why? It's simple. I get a real answer to my prayrs, and I feel something that is undenable proof to me. I don't apreciate stuff like that made to just mock my belief. You claim that there is a relation, but that is only because you do not understand. You see things with your own eyes, and then decide that is all there is. So sure, in your eyes, your unicorn and my god are the same, and taking them seriously is just insanity. You just don't see the full picture.

That's the magic of propaganda and brainwashing. You don't know either is happening.

From: R0b0t1
That's the magic of propaganda and brainwashing. You don't know either is happening.

…Conspiratorialist?

No, truth.

Jason2gs - i dont know how to explain my point much better than i already have.

And a 2000 year old book isnt proof of much, if anything at all.(im not talking about the stuff inside, im talking about the legitimacy of the book itself. Though the content of the book could be put in question as well)

From: R0b0t1
No, truth.

As in, fact?

Do you have proof to back up this 'fact'?

Using the same logic being used in this thread, you could not disprove my statement.

But since you probably won't like that answer, I'll come up with a better one.

Every day of your life your opinions are effected by other people. This is brainwashing. No one on this planet has unbiased opinions because of the (sometimes false) facts being put into their head by the society they live in. Now you could expand this, into what you think is society may be a controlled environment where the fads are ushered in by purpose and not by accident.

In effect your opinions and pretty much your whole life have been controlled by the place you live and the people you see mostly without your knowing it.

From: R0b0t1
That's the magic of propaganda and brainwashing. You don't know either is happening.

cute.
Let me put it this way. I was not raised in a religious house. I would be hardcore atheist if it wasn't for my own personal experiences.

Now I understand that to you, this is stuff that doesn't make sense, so clearly I must be either crazy or brainwashed. And honestly, nothing I can say would be able to effectively change your mind unless you knew me personally.

Honestly though, your response just sounds like a lazy excuse to discredit me.

Edit: Ahh, i read your last post. Good. Yes, I know and understand this, and I am glad you do too. All I really have to say to that, its that my experiences and beliefs don't really match anyones around me. Or at least anyone I am around long enough, or respect enough for it to brainwash me.

But who knows, maybe this whole God thing is nothing but a brainwashing thing, lol. I know in some religions in certainly seems that way. Lots of moral mind games they play with you to get you to come to church and give your money so you don't look like scum. I despise that type of pervasion in religion, that's not believing in God.

There you have it, another example of brainwashing. This one is called 'stereotypes'.

How do you know that I do not believe in God? Because it would seem that I am arguing against his existence? How do you know that I think all religious people either crazy or brainwashed?

But you are right. Have you ever heard the analogy of arguing with an ignorant man? You will not be able to sway his views because of what he does not know.

From: R0b0t1
Using the same logic being used in this thread, you could not disprove my statement.

But since you probably won't like that answer, I'll come up with a better one.

Every day of your life your opinions are effected by other people. This is brainwashing. No one on this planet has unbiased opinions because of the (sometimes false) facts being put into their head by the society they live in. Now you could expand this, into what you think is society may be a controlled environment where the fads are ushered in by purpose and not by accident.

In effect your opinions and pretty much your whole life have been controlled by the place you live and the people you see mostly without your knowing it.

Mm, as I said. Conspiratorialist.

You remind me of my dad. He sees conspiracy everywhere. He taped up the webcam on his Vista laptop because he's afraid of people spying on him…

He was put off by instant messaging for years because he logged onto his computer one day, found an icon he hadn't seen before, clicked on it, and bunnies started climbing up from the bottom of the screen. He's convinced that because they were painted on top of his taskbar, "That means they were -inside- my computer!"… He was convinced that it was because of ICQ. (He later found out that ICQ actually sold it's users' information to the highest bidder…

He gives something two seconds of thought, makes up some big story, and goes around saying, "I know what's going on!" and when I give him a weird look, he comes back with "Come on, Michael, how else would it do this?"… All the while thinking he's the smartest man on the face of the planet…

From: R0b0t1
There you have it, another example of brainwashing. This one is called 'stereotypes'.

How do you know that I do not believe in God? Because it would seem that I am arguing against his existence? How do you know that I think all religious people either crazy or brainwashed?

But you are right. Have you ever heard the analogy of arguing with an ignorant man? You will not be able to sway his views because of what he does not know.

forgive me. I am not trying to steriotype you at all. You may be saying these things just for arguents sake.

But you must understand that on a forum enviroment, im not just responding to you, but also anyone else who may agree with what you last said.

Please note, you have said i was brainwashed twice now. And also note, i have never said, or really aluded that you don't belive in god. I tried to see things from your point of view, and try to see why you think im brainwashed, but thats all. perhaps you misread my post.

From: Jason2gs
You're forgetting that while religion is 'hammered' into children every Sunday, the hypothesis of Evolution is 'hammered' into children every weekday in school.

Christianity has been around for 2000 year, and for most of that time, it was undisputed,
the theory of evolution has been around for about 200 years, and it has been argued against since it started.

clearly religion has had much more time to work its magic,
evolution has had to make-do with only logic, reason and evidence.

you could also say that number theory is 'hammered' into children,
and newton's theory of motion, and shakespeare,
one difference is, numbers, newton's laws and shakespeare have a clear use to humanity, while religion causes much destruction and death,
how much blood has been spilled in the name of God?

From: Jason2gs
How can you say one has more evidence than the other?

because it simply does,

"How can you say 3 is bigger then 2"
because it just is!

oh my Newton, its like arguing with a retard

From: Jason2gs
If what I read in my textbook was correct, just about every piece of evidence you have for Evolution is, as best, unconfirmed.

its often been the case that creationists try to refute fossils, and non of their claims are justified,

dont take them these people too seriously,
they seem to believe that just because one or two fossils were fake, every fossil in existence is fake.

its not good enough to say "That fossil might be fake, therefore evolution has no evidence",
we live in a world of innocent-until-proven-guilty, and in general, fossils have more evidence for their being genuine, then evidence for their forgery

From: Jason2gs
If not, then please, put forth your evidence. We'll study it, judge it, and, if possible, shoot it down without remorse.

ok i will, lets start with that creature which has feathers, and also has teeth,
its a transitional species between dinosaurs and birds,
modern day birds dont have teeth, they have beaks.

it has the name Archaeopteryx
about 10 complete body fossils of it have been discovered, and large numbers of parts of its body,

(you might be wondering, "how do they know that this tooth belonged to that bird", well the answer is that the scientists that study this know to look very carefully at all the detail, more often then not, a biologists can tell the species just by looking at a tooth, other things are easier, like feathers are very likely to have a pattern in species)

a picture of one is here

note: although you cant see it in the picture, that bird defiantly has teeth.
paleontologists don't look at pictures like we just did, they look at fossils with magnifying glasses, and they defiantly saw teeth

you cant possibly say all 30 or so fossils found are fake, not when they were found by many different people in many different places.
these clearly show a transition between flying dinosaurs and birds.

an artists impression is here
thats only an artists impression, fossils have no way of telling us what colour its wings were or anything, but we can make educated guesses.






now fossils are rare things, less then 1% of dead animals are preserved like this, we are lucky to have as many fossils as we do,
we dont have many complete fossil records of one specie turning into another, like we have archaeopteryx, but we dont have a fossil of the stage after, as far as i know

one complete fossil record we have is the horse, which is my second piece of evidence for today,
we have a complete record showing how to horse went from a small dog-like creature with 5 toes in each leg, to the modern day horse we see today,

a graphical illustration of these finding is found here

if you want to check all this fossils individually, i can offer you their separate wikipedia pages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyracotherium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesohippus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parahippus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merychippus

sorry for the link spamming, i dont have much to say about these fossils except they are one of the complete fossil records we have,
if you're ever in London, you can have a look at them for yourself in London's Natural History Museum


and sorry to bring this argument away from God, but in my defense, it was Jason2gs who brought up evolution,

and to my atheist fellows, a good page to read up on transitional fossils is here

From: Yakman
Christianity has been around for 2000 year, and for most of that time, it was undisputed,
the theory of evolution has been around for about 200 years, and it has been argued against since it started.

clearly religion has had much more time to work its magic,
evolution has had to make-do with only logic, reason and evidence.

this is very true. And I am going to have to agree with you, at many points along its history it was completly corupted, and used as a way to brainswash and control people to do whatever their leader wanted. Take the crusades for exampole. Its apsolutly hideous how quickly and how far people can screw up religion.

From: Yakman

you could also say that number theory is 'hammered' into children,
and newton's theory of motion, and shakespeare,
one difference is, numbers, newton's laws and shakespeare have a clear use to humanity, while religion causes much destruction and death,
how much blood has been spilled in the name of God?

Well,, yeah.. if you look at just that, it is defanitly a bad thing. But like I said earlier, that isnt relgion, that is a perversion of it. Most religons that i am familiar with teach you to love and get along with people, be charitable, and good constructive usefull stuff like that.

From: Yakman

because it simply does[have more evidence]

No, not really. I have yet to see a tree tell me that God doesnt exist, or anything other than a human do that. Im my view, i have a very strong bit of personal evidence that god exists, and nothing against it. In your view, you have no evidence he exists, or not really much against it either, so I would say we are about on the same playing field, with just perspective issues.

From: Yakman

its often been the case that creationists try to refute fossils, and non of their claims are justified,

dont take them these people too seriously,
they seem to believe that just because one or two fossils were fake, every fossil in existence is fake.

Absolutly. They are being ignorant and lazy.

From: Yakman
more evidence for their being genuine, then evidence for their forgery

in general , yes, but everyhting with a grain of salt.

You go on with a nice bit about focils showing evolution. i really like it allot, I find that kinda of stuff very facinating. Although the evidence may be a bit scetchy, i think some of the older stuff is far to much to just plain out deny it. Evolution happened in some form, there is just a logical connection in how things progressed that show it.

But here is the thing.. evolution really isnt any evidence against god. Genises is really quite abstract and vuage about how God made everything, and depending on your technicalities I really think it was jesus doing all the physical stuff.. but regardless. I think the closest description of how he did it was something like "molded out of clay" and that each stage happened in a day.

I don't really know for certain, but this molding could have very well been evolution, just simplified down. Explaining chromosomes is a bit much and unnecessary for a vision really. And i think the fact that he sais "and it was good" kinda aludes to the point that maybe he wasn't quite satisfied at the beiging of the day.

And as far as the "day" stuff. Its prety obvious through all the visions and stuff, that god has a prety good mastery of quantumatics, and that time, and "day" is pretty relative.

Thank you, Yakman.

I have no problem with being given pages to read, so long as you provide some of your own words too. That way I know you actually know what you're talking about. Otherwise, I would have to assume that you read the same pages as I did. Because if you didn't, any point I launch at you will fly right over your head. If that made any sense at all ^_~

I'd like to apologize for assuming that Evolution had no plausible evidence. I assumed what I read in my book was accurate.

I'm reading up on the point you made right now. I'll respond later on.

And as for me bringing up evolution… You're the one who said that,

"religion and science are competing theories, one has much more evidence then the other"

And I don't believe you made this thread to act solely as an "Arguments for God" discussion. I think you wanted an Evolution vs Creation debate, but didn't want to be tripped up with the "What happened before the Big Bang?" question.

Also…

"we live in a world of innocent-until-proven-guilty"

Wouldn't that mean Creation should be considered a valid theory until it's proven invalid?

"innocent-until-proven-guilty" can be reworded as "unless-there-is-evidence,-you didn't-do-it"

creation, theres no evidence, you are innocent,
evolution, there is much evidence, you are guilty, i sentence you to life imprisonment in science textbooks and museums around the world

i probably should have made it clearer that being "guilty" is a positive thing here.


i assure you i did write that whole post by myself, although i have read many articles and books about it, so i might end up copying some phrases iv heard there,

Ah, religion… how much I have discussed this at uni…

There is really no point in arguing, saying I'm right, you're wrong. Regardless of what happens, all these threads do is give the Christians more arguments against other atheists in the future, and gives more atheists other arguments against Christians in the future.

So you all know, I'm an atheist.

To me, believing in God is simple: It is for the weak and insecure people. People who are feeling insecure need comfort, and so they turn to God. Otherwise, they believe in God because their families do. Why do their families believe in God? Because somewhere up the family tree, someone was feeling insecure and turned to God.

And those who say you should believe because you are scared: Thats a very stupid reason to believe. Choose a side. If you believe, believe properly. If you don't, then you have nothing to be scared about, right?

Its a win win situation. Believe and you go to heaven. Don't believe, and it doesn't matter where you go; you don't believe they exist.

And did you know that the only way to get into heaven is to believe that Jesus dies for you and loves you? So those who say you may as well believe in God: Its not going to help you. So give up now, or turn hardcore Christian.

Also, because of this, its means that if your loved ones don't believe in Jesus, it means that they will be burning in hell, regardless of it they were a decent person in life or not. For a God who is supposed to love us unconditionally, that doesn't seem right, no?

Which leads me to me next point. just because you believe in Jesus, does it really mean you deserve to go to heaven? If i were a serial killer, killing thousands of people, BUT i believe in Jesus, and that he died for us, it means i'm going to heaven. Is that fair? Well its what some extreme Muslims believe, no?

And finally, how do you know Christianity is the right religion? You were brought up in that environment right, from a young age where you were very mouldable, or because you live in the western society, which is based on Christianity (and don't bother saying some other religion is the dominating in the western world, we all know its Christian based anyway). Which again leads me to my first point: You believe in God because your family does. And why do your family believe in God? Because somewhere up the family tree, someone was feeling insecure…

I just find it so hard to believe that so many people would follow a faith so blindly without any proof of God's existence. If he doesn't exist, then thats a good 70 years of your life wasted.

Starblaster100, you're painting a rosy picture of a live-and-let-live society of theism and atheism,

but the world isnt like this,
religion is used as justification for many crimes,
like september 11th and july 7th are direct results of religion,

much of the lobby against abortion and stem cell research comes of religious grounds,

religious politicians have a lot of influence in some places, and the decisions they make are based on religion more often then not,
George Bush said God told him to invade iraq,
they say they are a country "under god"


as for this argument, i do believe there is a point,
it is interesting and enjoyable for many people, and it helps rally your supporters (atheists rally themselves, theists rally themselves)

sorry if this sounds like a personal attack, i agree with all your other stuff

like that part about "how do you know Christianity is the correct religion"
iv also seen many muslims say "Oh those suicide bombers, they were following a misguided version of islam"
but what i never got is how they are so sure they have the correct version of islam? its possible they interpreted the Koran wrongly.

From: Starblaster100
Ah, religion… how much I have discussed this at uni…

There is really no point in arguing, saying I'm right, you're wrong. Regardless of what happens, all these threads do is give the Christians more arguments against other atheists in the future, and gives more atheists other arguments against Christians in the future.

So you all know, I'm an atheist.

To me, believing in God is simple: It is for the weak and insecure people. People who are feeling insecure need comfort, and so they turn to God. Otherwise, they believe in God because their families do. Why do their families believe in God? Because somewhere up the family tree, someone was feeling insecure and turned to God.

And those who say you should believe because you are scared: Thats a very stupid reason to believe. Choose a side. If you believe, believe properly. If you don't, then you have nothing to be scared about, right?

Its a win win situation. Believe and you go to heaven. Don't believe, and it doesn't matter where you go; you don't believe they exist.

And did you know that the only way to get into heaven is to believe that Jesus dies for you and loves you? So those who say you may as well believe in God: Its not going to help you. So give up now, or turn hardcore Christian.

Also, because of this, its means that if your loved ones don't believe in Jesus, it means that they will be burning in hell, regardless of it they were a decent person in life or not. For a God who is supposed to love us unconditionally, that doesn't seem right, no?

Which leads me to me next point. just because you believe in Jesus, does it really mean you deserve to go to heaven? If i were a serial killer, killing thousands of people, BUT i believe in Jesus, and that he died for us, it means i'm going to heaven. Is that fair? Well its what some extreme Muslims believe, no?

And finally, how do you know Christianity is the right religion? You were brought up in that environment right, from a young age where you were very mouldable, or because you live in the western society, which is based on Christianity (and don't bother saying some other religion is the dominating in the western world, we all know its Christian based anyway). Which again leads me to my first point: You believe in God because your family does. And why do your family believe in God? Because somewhere up the family tree, someone was feeling insecure…

I just find it so hard to believe that so many people would follow a faith so blindly without any proof of God's existence. If he doesn't exist, then thats a good 70 years of your life wasted.

First off, what you're saying about people only believing in God because someone in the family tree was insecure has nothing to back it up.

Also, it's not a win-win situation.

From my standpoint as a Baptist Christian, if you're saved, you go to Heaven, otherwise, you got to Hell. You're making it seem like… If a person believes in God, they go to Heaven. If they don't, they nothing happens to them.

If God is real, and if the Bible is true, then my faith is also true. If not, then it doesn't matter what you believe, and you go no where. (Unless you also wish to judge that by another set of beliefs.)

Mm… If you were a serial killer, and you got saved, you shouldn't want to kill people anymore. You'll have a change of heart.

That is something I don't understand about God, though. According to the Bible, if you trust Jesus as your savior once, you can never lose your salvation. That is to say, if that serial killer got saved at a young age (post-"age of accountability"), but later got away from God (NOT losing his salvation. Simply losing an interest in church.), and became a serial killer, he would still go to Heaven. Whereas the Pope, who lives every day for the Lord, but has never actually been saved, won't go to Heaven.

It doesn't seem right to me, but I don't argue. I trust whole-heartedly in my faith, not because I'm insecure and need someone/something to lean on, but because God has shown himself to me.

If I'm wrong, and it's all in my head, what do I lose? Absolutely nothing. I was still a decent person. (Mind you, this isn't believing just for sake of believing. I believe in God because I see no other valid possibility for our existence. I believe in my faith (Baptist Christian) because I believe it to be true.)

-Mike

Edit:

From: Yakman
much of the lobby against abortion and stem cell research comes of religious grounds,

religious politicians have a lot of influence in some places, and the decisions they make are based on religion more often then not,
George Bush said God told him to invade iraq,
they say they are a country "under god"

Why are you discrediting religion so much? Some people are religious, some people aren't. Why can't you just leave it at that? Why should religion be kept out of politics, abortion, and stem cell research?

Because the current argument is getting nowhere fast, let's switch it up a little.

Should Creation and Evolution be taught side-by-side in school?

As King Solomon once said,"Meaningless, Meaningless! Everything is meaningless! Utterly meaningless!"

So you say that Islam - founded by a murderer (Yes Wizzup, you were right), Christianity, and Judaism were all founded to make us feel good about ourselves? I'm a Christian, and I don't feel good about myself only because I know and believe in Jesus Christ. I wonder why I always find that Atheists love conspiracy theories.

You're also going to find that this is going to get boring soon. If you really care, go argue with a minister, me, I'm going to go eat some pizza while you people dance in circles.

From: Jason2gs
Why are you discrediting religion so much? Some people are religious, some people aren't. Why can't you just leave it at that? Why should religion be kept out of politics, abortion, and stem cell research?

because religion effects our daily lives so much, regardless of what you believe, the worlds major religions will have an effect on you.

when a fundamentalist christian shoots you for using an abortion clinic, will you just leave it as that?
when a fundamentalist muslim blows up himself and others around him, will you just leave it as that?
when a politician uses religion as an excuse for war, hiding his true intention (oil), will you just leave it at that?

i know I'm attacking fundamentalists there, but they are created by religion,
if there was no religion, there would be less opportunity for people to use it as an excuse to kill other people,

I've never said religion should be kept out of politics and those issues, I'm saying religion should be kept out of the world altogether

why is it that people can have a reasoned discussion about which political party is better, where many words are said and neither side gets offended,
but when discussing religion, we have to be much more respectful, and politefully tip-toe away for fear of being disrespectful, offensive and "discrediting religion"

by the way, this isnt a giant crushing a bug, you are perfectly capable of defending yourself,
perhaps you could try attacking atheists, saying they will all hand us over to the godless reds.
I've always thought the best defense is attack

From: Jason2gs
Should Creation and Evolution be taught side-by-side in school?

no, we should not teach two opposing theories that blatantly contradict each other,
its like teaching that 2 + 2 = 4, and then going and teaching 2 + 2 = 5

children at that age are easily mouldable, its possible they would believe the whole of life is contradictory like this,
it would end up like double-think from Nineteen-eighty-four

either teach one, or the other

You're forgetting that religion isn't just a 'crutch' to most people. They really believe it to be true. (Like me.) To say that it should be cut out of the world altogether is preposterous.

And perhaps I should reword the topic-change I posed…

Should Creation be taught in school as an alternative to Evolution?

Personally, I think it's wronging the children to only tell one side of the story. It's not letting them choose which one they think is more sensible, but rather, forcing them to believe in Evolution as the only possibility.

I go to a christian school, and they pretty much leave evolution out and never talk about it. o they're not telling the whole story either.

I'm gonna stay outta this whole debate as people seem to be handling it, somewhat lol… i just would like to point out at the school thing, i dont think we should teach either in school, but we should let people pray in school and whatnot… As there is no such thing as "seperation of church and state" in the constitution/bill of rights, simply that the government cannot restrict or favor it, it does not mean that individuals in the government cannot favor it simply, they cannot make laws about it… and that is all…

From: Starblaster100
Ah, religion… how much I have discussed this at uni…
There is really no point in arguing, saying I'm right, you're wrong.

agreed. Im just trying to stop the people who say they are right.

From: Starblaster100


To me, believing in God is simple: It is for the weak and insecure people. People who are feeling insecure need comfort, and so they turn to God. Otherwise, they believe in God because their families do. Why do their families believe in God? Because somewhere up the family tree, someone was feeling insecure and turned to God.

What is this??! Why do you try to judge and sterotype something that you don't even understand!? Ok, look, let me make this definition right now. There are people who say they belive or feel they belive because they are weak and wanted superficial comfort (or perhaps the social comfort of church) and people who only belive because of people they know belive. That imho is not truely beliving. Sure, you can call people like that insecure, but not me. I did not become a beliver because anyone I knew was ( it was very much to the contrary and I got allot of crap because of it ), nor was it because I needed comfort. I mean, Hell, I don't even want to be a believer! I'm just stuck with evidence that I can not deny.

From: Starblaster100

Its a win win situation. Believe and you go to heaven.

and if heaven doesnt excist, ure still ok

From: Starblaster100
Don't believe, and it doesn't matter where you go; you don't believe they exist.

unless they do, then ure in a bit of trouble. Anyhow, i am against people beliving just because they are scared, but thats at least their argument.

From: Starblaster100
And did you know that the only way to get into heaven is to believe that Jesus dies for you and loves you? So those who say you may as well believe in God: Its not going to help you. So give up now, or turn hardcore Christian.

no. this is not true. In fact, even people who are athiest can get into heaven if they lead a good life. God is just and jesus is very forgiving. Everyone gets a fair shot at choosing to believe or not.

From: Starblaster100

Also, because of this, its means that if your loved ones don't believe in Jesus, it means that they will be burning in hell, regardless of it they were a decent person in life or not. For a God who is supposed to love us unconditionally, that doesn't seem right, no?

your right, it isn't, and thats not how it works. Least not in my religion. other ones may have their own stuff to work out.. like i said before, i am complelty against the fu**ed up religions who got it all worng.

From: Starblaster100

Which leads me to me next point. just because you believe in Jesus, does it really mean you deserve to go to heaven? If i were a serial killer, killing thousands of people, BUT i believe in Jesus, and that he died for us, it means i'm going to heaven. Is that fair? Well its

hell no, lol. I mean i supose it might be possiblke if this murder complelty repented for his sins. including.. well, undoing what he has done.. or something like that.. but yeah. not likly, I really dont know the details, but i would say that him getting into heaven isnt guna work.

From: Starblaster100
what some extreme Muslims believe, no?

helifino. Thats one of them fu**ed up unsuported religions. Not all religions are the same.

From: Starblaster100

And finally, how do you know Christianity is the right religion? You were brought up in that environment right, from a young age where you were very mouldable, or because you live in the western society, which is based on Christianity (and don't bother saying some other religion is the dominating in the western world, we all know its Christian based anyway). Which again leads me to my first point: You believe in God because your family does. And why do your family believe in God? Because somewhere up the family tree, someone was feeling insecure…

No. thats not me nor why. How do i know? I asked, prayed and got an answer. Arguably the bigest mistake of my life, but its too late now.

From: Starblaster100

I just find it so hard to believe that so many people would follow a faith so blindly without any proof of God's existence. If he doesn't exist, then thats a good 70 years of your life wasted.

Some people do. People are idiots. I don't really understand the people who do it without having personal proof of their own either. It probably some fu**ed up stuff like wanting to look good, or falling into peer presure, or something like that. But i don't know, im not going to judge.

From: yakman
Starblaster100, you're painting a rosy picture of a live-and-let-live society of theism and atheism,

You propose live-and-kill-belivers is a better picture? Seriosuly now, i know their are some screwed up religions, but getting all mad at them is just guna make things worse. Get your own moral set of guidlines, (utilitarian if you will) and judge based on that if you need to.

From: Jason2gs
I don't mind you giving me things to read, but don't make that all you give me. Give me some of your own words, and I'll be happy to have a sensible argument with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

(Couldn't resist.)

Oh, in that case… I was citing a reference as well. My biology book.

Fair enough. Your biology book seriously said that evolution had very little unconfirmed evidence?! That is very strange, well I guess maybe not depending on where you live. If you live in a community that is historically Christian then the school district probably purchases more religious based texts, not that it is a bad thing.

From: LordGregGreg
it was not hammered into me as a child or now adays. I don't need people to tell me what to believe, that normaly causes me to almost imidatly regect it. I found out what I know on my own.

Well do you attend church? If so, that is at least one hour a week that you have someone tell you what it is that you believe. Just pointing that out.

From: LordGregGreg
And yeah, your pink unicorn or flying spagetti monster is just peachy. But its doesnt survive?! I wonder why? It's simple. I get a real answer to my prayrs, and I feel something that is undenable proof to me. I don't apreciate stuff like that made to just mock my belief. You claim that there is a relation, but that is only because you do not understand. You see things with your own eyes, and then decide that is all there is. So sure, in your eyes, your unicorn and my god are the same, and taking them seriously is just insanity. You just don't see the full picture.

Sigh they were both created as mock religions and they were made to point out some of the flaws in different theologies. The Flying Spaghetti Monster, for example, if you read it that is, which I doubt, was created because a school wanted 50% evolution and 50% intelligent design. So he created his own religion, which as much as you hate to admit it, pretty much as equal proof to most religions. Now this does NOT mean that the religions are WRONG, it just means that you CANNOT expect some people to believe in it. So do not get all angry and start flaming me. This man who created it, he thought that since these were his beliefs that no one could technically prove incorrect, it should get equal time getting taught in schools. Since his argument actually made sense, since it was impossible to disprove yet was obviously too ridiculous to be taught (not that other religions are ridiculous, this one has spaghetti for a god okay?), the school district could not really teach intelligent design in school.

From: Dan Cardin
science hasnt failed us. Do you know how long it took us to figure out e = mc^2? It wasnt until Einstein came along and figured it out that we had that. If science wasnt evolving, then we wouldnt be having smaller, thinner TV's and more and more fuel efficient cars. Just because we cant explain something right this second doesnt mean that science has failed us or that it cant be figured out. On the other hand, theists have been believing in the same thing for thousands of years and havent gotten any more evidence of anything in that time.

Hey very good point right there. I like having a person like you debating too. You bring up nice points. Although that thing about us killing ourselves over and over doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense I guess lol.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

A few questions on this, if this is a direct quote of the bible. If God created man, why does he use the work “our?” Is that referring to the angels + God or to the Holy Trinity (God, Jesus, Holy Spirit)? That question is simpler and does not spawn any argument or new points I think. The real question I had is that if God make man in His image. Then is God full of destruction? Because anyone would be hard-pressed to say that man is not naturally violent. I always heard that God was merciful and peaceful and all that…

OMG Dusk412, who’s side are you on?!

Also for everyone who wants to know what side I am on, due to the fact I have made several comments on both sides, I am on my side :D. To further explain: every debate, at least the ones worth having, don’t only have just one side. There is not just two beliefs, and my beliefs on this topic (as with most topics) are uniquely my own. And in this particular topic, I think I believe in God (Though I am not sure). The reason for this mainly comes from my experiences in nature. While I do spend a lot of time on the computer I do enjoy the outdoors and most sports. There was a specific occasion I have in mind, though there are several other examples in my life. This example is when I was out camping in an area miles from any city so there was no light pollution. Now I went off by myself in the middle of a field and lay down in just my sleeping bag and a tarp and I looked at the sky. It was a perfectly clear night. For anyone who lives out in the country or anything and has seen the Milky Way Galaxy, they can also tell you how beautiful and utterly awesome it is. That alone is enough to make me think that something so beautiful (I know it sounds weird that I use this word, but it is the only one I can think to use) could not have been created by chance. But then sometimes I think logically and see the billions of stars and figure well it could happen because I mean even if the odds were one in a billion, Earth could be that one. But then I think well how would this one chance at life have created this thinking and entirely unique (as far as I know – no aliens) species. And my head keeps going round like that so I am not quite sure what I believe except that I think there is a God. I do not know if I believe in Jesus (that whole Holy Trinity think is kind of weird for me).I do not believe that the bread and wine turn into his body and blood (if you have ever tasted your own blood from like a paper cut or something and tasted the wine at church, the wine tastes like wine, not blood…). Umm that is all I can think of I just thought you should all know where I stand since I am arguing lol. I may also make remarks against people that do not support my own beliefs but that is because I like to simulate discussion and arguing is fun :D.

From: LordGregGreg

But who knows, maybe this whole God thing is nothing but a brainwashing thing, lol. I know in some religions in certainly seems that way. Lots of moral mind games they play with you to get you to come to church and give your money so you don't look like scum. I despise that type of pervasion in religion, that's not believing in God.

Actually that is a point that is slightly made fun on and discussed with the Flying Spaghetti Monster (use wikipedia if you don’t know what I am talkin about). The fact that many major religions now say that you need money to go to heaven or something is horrendous in my opinion. For example, scientology was created by a man as a sort of business purely for profit. If that isn’t twisted, I don’t know what is.

From: LordGregGreg
this is very true. And I am going to have to agree with you, at many points along its history it was completly corupted, and used as a way to brainswash and control people to do whatever their leader wanted. Take the crusades for exampole. Its apsolutly hideous how quickly and how far people can screw up religion.
Well,, yeah.. if you look at just that, it is defanitly a bad thing. But like I said earlier, that isnt relgion, that is a perversion of it. Most religons that i am familiar with teach you to love and get along with people, be charitable, and good constructive usefull stuff like that.

Good point.

From: LordGregGreg
No, not really. I have yet to see a tree tell me that God doesnt exist, or anything other than a human do that.

Uh oh. Once again you are going toward the “since you can’t disprove me, it must be true.” I would have to say you are going towards the lazy side of this debate… Come on I know you have better arguments than that lol.

From: LordGregGreg
But here is the thing.. evolution really isnt any evidence against god. Genises is really quite abstract and vuage about how God made everything, and depending on your technicalities I really think it was jesus doing all the physical stuff.. but regardless. I think the closest description of how he did it was something like "molded out of clay" and that each stage happened in a day.

AHAH! Now here is where we get to the real center of the matter. Now it comes right down to how much you believe in the Bible and how literally you take it. If you take the Bible metaphorically, then all of religion makes much MUCH more sense (to me at least) and I have much more respect for you. It is these people that think that God made the world in EXACTLY seven days (even though these same people will also tell you that God is outside of time and therefore not subject to its rules).

Some of these people also like to say that Noah had dinosaurs on his arc and that is just ridiculous. Or they believe that all the dinosaur fossils are fake. To start from the beginning, dinosaurs have been discovered through fossils and have been estimated to exist around from the late Triassic period (about 230 million years ago) to the end of the Cretaceous period (65 million years ago). DNA evidence indicates that modern humans originated in Africa about 200,000 years ago. The dates for dinosaurs were figured out using a combination of mainly 3 things. If another fossil like it is found, they are likely from the same era. They use Stratigraphy, which deals with rock layers and layering. You can learn more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratigraphy. They use radioisotope dating which uses decay rates of known materials due to radiation. You can learn more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_dating.

From: LordGregGreg


I don't really know for certain, but this molding could have very well been evolution, just simplified down. Explaining chromosomes is a bit much and unnecessary for a vision really. And i think the fact that he sais "and it was good" kinda aludes to the point that maybe he wasn't quite satisfied at the beiging of the day.

And as far as the "day" stuff. Its prety obvious through all the visions and stuff, that god has a prety good mastery of quantumatics, and that time, and "day" is pretty relative.

Now that is the kind of arguments I expect from you LordGregGreg lol. Nice stuff…

From: Jason2gs
Thank you, Yakman.

I have no problem with being given pages to read, so long as you provide some of your own words too. That way I know you actually know what you're talking about. Otherwise, I would have to assume that you read the same pages as I did. Because if you didn't, any point I launch at you will fly right over your head. If that made any sense at all ^_~

I'd like to apologize for assuming that Evolution had no plausible evidence. I assumed what I read in my book was accurate.

I have a feeling this was directed at me in both a positive manner and a negative manner. I, too, apologize for just throwing links. It was late and I was tired and I was slightly irritated at the comment of no plausible evidence. That is no excuse though. You are actually quite knowledgeable and have made several valid points since.

From: Jason2gs

Also…

"we live in a world of innocent-until-proven-guilty"

Wouldn't that mean Creation should be considered a valid theory until it's proven invalid?

Hmm I really am not liking any of this innocent vs. guilty reasoning. This is only ever used in the justice system pretty much. Also, science NEVER uses this. That is why there are so few scientific laws and so many theories. Many theories of science are universally accepted but are not laws (aka scientific facts) because they cannot be proven. To become a law it has to be absolutely proven by disproving all other possibilities. If used in this debate it will mean that all different opinions are absolutely correct because nobody can prove them absolutely wrong. That is why this debate is still around.

From: Yakman
one difference is, numbers, newton's laws and shakespeare have a clear use to humanity, while religion causes much destruction and death

Sorry but when I read this the first thing I thought of was, what is the clear use to humanity of shakespeare? The next thing I thought of is that religion does have a use to humanity. Whether religion is correct or not, in essence, is irrelevant for several reasons. 1. It helps humanity cope with the idea of death and what happens after death. 2. Without religion there would be millions, even billions, of people with no place to go for help and support. 3. It not only gives financial and emotional support to those who need it, it gives moral support as well and keeps many people on Earth from becoming moral-less.

From: Starblaster100

Also, because of this, its means that if your loved ones don't believe in Jesus, it means that they will be burning in hell, regardless of it they were a decent person in life or not. For a God who is supposed to love us unconditionally, that doesn't seem right, no?

Which leads me to me next point. just because you believe in Jesus, does it really mean you deserve to go to heaven? If i were a serial killer, killing thousands of people, BUT i believe in Jesus, and that he died for us, it means i'm going to heaven. Is that fair? Well its what some extreme Muslims believe, no?

And finally, how do you know Christianity is the right religion? You were brought up in that environment right, from a young age where you were very mouldable, or because you live in the western society, which is based on Christianity (and don't bother saying some other religion is the dominating in the western world, we all know its Christian based anyway). Which again leads me to my first point: You believe in God because your family does. And why do your family believe in God? Because somewhere up the family tree, someone was feeling insecure…

I just find it so hard to believe that so many people would follow a faith so blindly without any proof of God's existence. If he doesn't exist, then thats a good 70 years of your life wasted.

That first paragraph I quoted is a very good point though, which is one of the reasons I am not sure what to believe, as well as most of the second paragraph. Now that part about extreme Muslims is rather strange because, well not to get controversial, but many of them actually were brainwashed, if you want proof I guess I can find some later just ask, but this post is getting rather long. I am writing on MS Word and it is no getting to the bottom of the 4th page.

Ah, Starblaster. You are sort of assuming this is Christians vs. atheists but it is actually theists vs. atheists. I have no idea why you are assuming everyone here who believes in God is Christian. But that part of insecure people is actually partially true as much as many people hate to admit it. I believe, though, that the true fear behind all the hundreds of religions is simply the fear of death. And atheists who do not have a religion are usually just as “weak” but are stubborn and just try not to think about it. There is only an EXTREMELY small percentage of atheists who are actually comfortable with the idea of death. For example, the poet Emily Dickinson (Try poems There is a solitude of space or Because I could not stop for Death or I heard a fly Buzz – that last one I think I got the title wrong…).

From: Jason2gs
Why are you discrediting religion so much? Some people are religious, some people aren't. Why can't you just leave it at that? Why should religion be kept out of politics, abortion, and stem cell research?

I believe that religion should be kept out of politics entirely. There is a seperation of church and state (or supposed to be) for a reason. If you have your religion, and it, for example, says that abortion is wrong. Then you completely have the right to not support abortion and to try to convince others that it is wrong. You definitely should not say, “It is wrong because the Bible says so.” This either makes atheists fight for abortion just because you are trying to convince them through the use of a God and book that they do not believe in or it tells others in your same religion something that they already know. Either way, it does not help your cause and just makes atheists dislike people who do it.

From: Jason2gs
Should Creation and Evolution be taught side-by-side in school?

From: Yakman

no, we should not teach two opposing theories that blatantly contradict each other,
its like teaching that 2 + 2 = 4, and then going and teaching 2 + 2 = 5

children at that age are easily mouldable, its possible they would believe the whole of life is contradictory like this,
it would end up like double-think from Nineteen-eighty-four

either teach one, or the other

Hmm I agree that it should not be taught side-by-side in school but not at all for the same reasons. In fact, I believe your reasoning is entirely flawed. This is not at all like the 2+2=4 or 5 because that shows a right and a wrong answer. Creation and Evolution are not just black and white things as you seem to think, there is tons and tons of gray area with lots of room for interpretation. It is like saying that teaching about the book Of Mice and Men in literature class is wrong because it portrays killing as good at the end because it was for the right reasons. Does this make kids say, well is killing right or wrong, make up your mind? No it doesn’t! It teaches kids to use critical thinking skills and analysis and form their own opinions which are all skills that are becoming lacking in modern society.

Now I believe that religion and evolution should not be taught side by side for one GREAT reason. In our Constitution of the United States of America it says there should be a separation of church and state. Our Constitution has lasted for 220+ years and for good reason. It is good! Religion should be taught outside of schools that are government run. I live in the United States by the way, that is why. If you are from another country I guess this doesn’t apply. For this same reason I believe that the line “under God” should be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance even though I am Catholic.

- If you thought this was too long. Too bad. I like debating and here are my arguments. If you came here to learn, then learn first to read.

Edit: @LordGregGreg: Can you please stop saying you have "personal evidence" and such and using that as reasoning if you are not going to tell anyone what it is. It is rather annoying lol, you have done it at least 3 times now…

From: LordGregGreg
agreed. Im just trying to stop the people who say they are right.

Greg, thats probably one of the most liberal religious things you have ever said. There aren't two rights to a debate.
Saying something like this is comparable to the minister who, a few months ago, said it wasn't his place to say who did or did not go to heaven or hell, based on what religion they were of. If you dare ask me why this is sickening, I will be very disgusted in you.

From: JackLKrawl
Greg, thats probably one of the most liberal religious things you have ever said. There aren't two rights to a debate.
Saying something like this is comparable to the minister who, a few months ago, said it wasn't his place to say who did or did not go to heaven or hell, based on what religion they were of. If you dare ask me why this is sickening, I will be very disgusted in you.

What are you saying. It is not the ministers right to say who is or isn't going to hell (as far as i know in ANY religion). That right lies only with God and since humanity does not know how God works or decides who goes where, they cannot judge. "There aren't two rights to a debate." Ah how niave. There are plenty of rights to every debate. As much as you may like to think so, the world is not black and white. If I ask you to argue about the best way to move a block of cement and have you debate about it, there may be several right answers. This is a basic example, but you get the point. Or if if you would like to technical for this particular debate, I guess there is only 1 right answer, but no one can know if they are correct or not until they die, so technically there are no right or wrong answers in THIS debate.

From: Dusk412
What are you saying. It is not the ministers right to say who is or isn't going to hell (as far as i know in ANY religion). That right lies only with God and since humanity does not know how God works or decides who goes where, they cannot judge. "There aren't two rights to a debate." Ah how niave. There are plenty of rights to every debate. As much as you may like to think so, the world is not black and white. If I ask you to argue about the best way to move a block of cement and have you debate about it, there may be several right answers. This is a basic example, but you get the point. Or if if you would like to technical for this particular debate, I guess there is only 1 right answer, but no one can know if they are correct or not until they die, so technically there are no right or wrong answers in THIS debate.

Congratulations, you're an idiot. I appreciate the wall of text, but I don't feel like going in depth as to why you or anyone who agrees with you are gravely mistaken.

From: JackLKrawl
Congratulations, you're an idiot. I appreciate the wall of text, but I don't feel like going in depth as to why you or anyone who agrees with you are gravely mistaken.

So you are basically a flamer who came here to state one thing then flame anyone who opposes you. You are also too lazy to read what anyone else posts. Then you call me an idiot and say "I don't feel like going in depth" because you have absolutely no come back. Then you post a link that goes to a retarded page that takes forever to get out of because it gives you a 2 second laugh and makes you feel slightly better about yourself because you have the IQ of a 2 year old. Did I get that about right?

*NOTE* Nobody click the link in his post unless you want to watch a music video that you can't exit for a while….

My opinion.

Indoctrination is a strong force. Those indoctrinated with religion will most likely keep their beliefs throughout their lives.
The human mind is quite weak, but i feel that with time religion will fade away because it is archaic.
Saying that god must exists because you cannot disprove his existence is the same as saying that magical dragons and wizards must exist because you cannot disprove their existence.
Some day, the civilized world will realize that it no longer needs religion and the chains that religion holds on our society will be released.
It all comes with time, As more and more people become enlightened with science, Religion will fade away.
People also say "who created the universe? who created space?" and since they do not know an answer,they simply think it must be the work of god. People do not realize that that is the exact thing that People thought in the medieval ages, "who created the earth, who created the sun, who created humans?" The truth is that no one created it, it is just there, Humans tend to have the inability to leave their questions unanswered, and saying that something is the work of god can help them to resolve their unanswered questions.

Some day people will realize that there is no man in the sky watching what we do, there is no almighty creator, only life itself.

From: Dusk412
So you are basically a flamer who came here to state one thing then flame anyone who opposes you. You are also too lazy to read what anyone else posts. Then you call me an idiot and say "I don't feel like going in depth" because you have absolutely no come back. Then you post a link that goes to a retarded page that takes forever to get out of because it gives you a 2 second laugh and makes you feel slightly better about yourself because you have the IQ of a 2 year old. Did I get that about right?

*NOTE* Nobody click the link in his post unless you want to watch a music video that you can't exit for a while….

Dusk, tell me what limited information you have on Christianity.

From: jacklcrawl
what he said about a minsiter and me being liberal..

yes, i agree that minister is screwed up. I didn't mean to say it as "im trying to stop anyone wrong who sais they are right", i meant it to just emphasise the fact that there really is no right to this debate. Anyone who really thinks they have solid proof and belivies that it proves them right and everyone should see and understand this is just being.. well, crazy. And i think it would be good for them to see the other side of the picture, or at least relize theirs isnt as strong and obvious as they think.

From: Dusk412
Well do you attend church? If so, that is at least one hour a week that you have someone tell you what it is that you believe. Just pointing that out.

No, i dont. and you hit the reason right on the head.

From: Dusk412

Sigh they were both created as mock religions and they were made to point out some of the flaws in different theologies. The Flying Spaghetti Monster…

yes, i did read up on them and understand them. Granted i didnt know the entire purpose of FSM (and thank you for that, cool story :) ) but it is stil a mock religion, and thats why i didnt like it that much. Its akin to saying that I belive in crazy stuff (which, in some peoples eyes i may, and thats legit), but i just wanted to point out that there is a hell of alot more to my belifs than just the fact that you can't disproove them.

From: Dusk412

Uh oh. Once again you are going toward the “since you can’t disprove me, it must be true.” I would have to say you are going towards the lazy side of this debate… Come on I know you have better arguments than that lol.

oh, no no. I was not using that as an argument for me. I was only using it to counter what yakman said about him having more evidence. basically just saying that he didnt have any either.

From: Dusk412

AHAH! Now here is where we get to the real center of the matter. Now it comes right down to how much you believe in the Bible and how literally you take it. If you take the Bible metaphorically, then all of religion makes much MUCH more sense (to me at least) and I have much more respect for you. It is these people that think that God made the world in EXACTLY seven days (even though these same people will also tell you that God is outside of time and therefore not subject to its rules).

agreed. Although i do know everyhitng in the bible is true.. i have also seen people take what it sais and twist it into the strangest bull crap i have ever seen. I think to really read and understand the bible, you have to have the spirit really guide you, as it can get pretyy messy at times. Kinda have to thing.. ok. genisis.. thats crazyness.. but.. this was all a vision that moses saw (i think?) and its just what he wrote down to describe it. So he probably saw a interesting sort of quantumatic time thing, showing each important stage of the earth, probably (especialy before there even was a sun) day meant more of "stage" or something like that.. anyhow, you get my drift.

From: Dusk412
Some of these people also like to say that Noah had dinosaurs on his arc and that is just ridiculous. Or they believe that all the dinosaur fossils are fake.

yep, this is called blind faith and easy stupid answers. Just beause their answers might possibly "could" be right, doesnt mean they are not bull crap. Now, if i really wanted to know if Moses took dinos on the ark, i probably could pray about it, but something tells me i would just get slaped for being stupid. lol. (i mean this purpely jokingly, JC does not slap me.. lol)

and as far as my personal evidence. the only reason i havnt really described it is because it just really doesnt matter to anyone but me. It can't really be proof to anyone else, so I dont want it to look like i am using it as such. Personal evidence? I prayed to God and honeslty asked him if he existed. And very much to my displeasure I recived a very strong answer that he does. What was the answer, well, i was expecting absolute nothingness, but instead my sternum just started to .. i dont know, feel amazing and i started crying uncontrolably. And thats about it really, the rest was my crying because i was so pissed i was wrong,lol.

From: SoupyBastrd
My opinion.
Indoctrination is a strong force. Those indoctrinated with religion will most likely keep their beliefs throughout their lives..

granted, lots of blind faith blievers.

From: SoupyBastrd

Saying that god must exists because you cannot disprove his existence is the same as saying that magical dragons and wizards must exist because you cannot disprove their existence.
Some day, the civilized world will realize that it no longer needs religion and the chains that religion holds on our society will be released.
It all comes with time, As more and more people become enlightened with science, Religion will fade away.

Sure. But wouldnt it suck if people kept on getting revelations that he does exist? Man, that would just screw up everything if a real God came in and interfered.

From: JackLKrawl
Dusk, tell me what limited information you have on Christianity.

What does this have to do with what I posted lol? Why do you assume I have limited knowledge? There is really no reason why I shouldn't answer you though so here it is. I was rasied a Catholic, though my beliefs do not really fit the religion so while I consider myself a Catholic, I probably would not be considered one by anyone else. I have read most of the Bible and I attended 10+ years of religion class (Catechism or however you spell it). I attend Catholic mass every Sunday. There is my background. Now your turn to tell me how it is relevant to anything…

Edit: @LordGregGred: Thank you, I have just been curious about it. You make very good points, nicely done.

yes, i agree that minister is screwed up. I didn't mean to say it as "im trying to stop anyone wrong who sais they are right", i meant it to just emphasise the fact that there really is no right to this debate. Anyone who really thinks they have solid proof and belivies that it proves them right and everyone should see and understand this is just being.. well, crazy. And i think it would be good for them to see the other side of the picture, or at least relize theirs isnt as strong and obvious as they think.

OK, I just misunderstood.
Sorry for jumping to conclusions.

From: Dusk412
What does this have to do with what I posted lol? Why do you assume I have limited knowledge? There is really no reason why I shouldn't answer you though so here it is. I was rasied a Catholic, though my beliefs do not really fit the religion so while I consider myself a Catholic, I probably would not be considered one by anyone else. I have read most of the Bible and I attended 10+ years of religion class (Catechism or however you spell it). I attend Catholic mass every Sunday. There is my background. Now your turn to tell me how it is relevant to anything…

Since I'd really rather not have Here point me out, I'll just go ahead and explain it to you.
My message to Greg about the minister and there "not being two rights to a debate" was covering Christs sacrifice.

Your post thoroughly ticked me off, because not only did you send me a text wall, but you also missed the entire point. You told me I was being naive and that the world doesn't operate in black and white, over several lines. Thanks for that.

Christians believe that Christ sacrificed himself so that, should we believe in him, go to heaven. A sick minister put out liberal garbage recently that it wasn't "our place to judge atheists," and that "it is only God's right."

This sick minister has preached the gospel for several years, and he goes and tells us that the gospel is wrong? Someone who is a raised Catholic should at least know as much that atheists don't go to heaven.

Why, you might ask? Do you believe that God would give his only son if there was another way? No. Christians believe that believing in Christ's blood is the only way to salvation for our sins.

Now your turn to tell me how it is relevant to anything…

If someone does something bad in the name of one, it is in one's best interest to speak up, as to not give one a bad name.
Someone did not do something bad in the name of one.

Earlier someone said that Christianity had about 1900 more years to evolve than Evolution?
Explain. Christians have been persecuted for centuries, starting from the birth of Christ. I suggest you read up before you make a baseless claim such as this. Catholics, Protestants, both were persecuted in Europe for a long time, before and during the 1700-1800s.

I'm going to bed. I have neither the interest nor desire to continue a chain conversation spanning ten pages. This is the last post that I'm going to make while I'm in a bad mood.

"If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts, but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties." - Francis Bacon

I think this really works both ways. If you start out certain that God is a figment of the imagination, then you will at some point have an experience that will make you doubt yourself. Likewise if you start out certain that God exists, then at some point you may have an experience that will raise doubts in your mind. If you start out uncertain, and willing to truly find out, I think you will end up with the answer.

"The only source of knowledge is experience." -Albert Einstein

This, of course, explains how to go about it. Reading from a book isn't truth. If you picked up a textbook from the 1700's a large majority of the concepts it was teaching would be considered outdated or outright false. When people 100 years in the future look back at our "cutting edge" science it will almost certainly look very simple and inelegant to them.

And really, in this respect I think that faithful people have a big advantage over those lacking faith. Most faithful people hold their beliefs because of a personal experience, or a personal witness that they themselves have felt. It wasn't merely something read on the internet or from a textbook or in a lecture. It's more than that because they have firsthand experience.

In contrast very, very few people have any firsthand experience testing scientific hypotheses. They get their "knowledge" second hand. They have to accept it without truly understanding it for themselves. And as Einstein points out, that's not true knowledge in the first place.

And although one may point to a scientist as someone with expertise they have developed over years and years of work, many people would do the same for a minister or a church leader that has spent a lifetime honing their ability to discern religious truths.

I think in the end, most people are satisfied to take their core beliefs second-hand, and I think that's sad. I think that developing faith is just as much an experiment as anything done in a lab. You have a pretty standard protocol to follow. You have a pretty good understanding of what the end result should be. It may not always work. But when it does work it's undeniable. All of these characteristics are shared with a science experiment.

One key to being a good scientist is tenacity. If a person gave up the first time an experiment failed, we literally wouldn't have one single scientist on earth. Perhaps that was behind another Einstein quote.

"Science is a wonderful thing if one does not have to earn one's living at it." - Albert Einstein

I wonder how many people that experimented on their faith and failed would have made good scientists.

I said this would be my last post tonight? I lied.
Heres something I liked while browsing.

Faith is caught like a disease, not taught like a subject. It grasps us, travels all over our systems, and redefines who we are. We open up to it in hope because the Spirit works through other people who live their faith honestly and bear its message to those who haven't grasped it yet. It is done and shown in concrete ways of daily living and in 'moments of truth' where matters of faith most clearly make the key difference.

http://www.spirithome.com/faith-sp.html
Also read "Faith is Illogical."

I wonder how many people that experimented on their faith and failed would have made good scientists.

I'm siggying that.

From: JackLKrawl
Earlier someone said that Christianity had about 1900 more years to evolve than Evolution?
Explain. Christians have been persecuted for centuries, starting from the birth of Christ. I suggest you read up before you make a baseless claim such as this. Catholics, Protestants, both were persecuted in Europe for a long time, before and during the 1700-1800s.

No offence.. but they kinda did. I don't think it really matters how much they were persucuted or not. I supose that may slow it down a little bit.. but still. On a time scale basis, christianty has been around allot more than evolution, not to mention that during the dark ages everyone was kinda forced into a messued up type of christianity.

and tara. I love your whole post. maybe just because of the einstein quotes. But regardless +rep.

From: JackLKrawl
OK, I just misunderstood.
Sorry for jumping to conclusions.

Since I'd really rather not have Here point me out, I'll just go ahead and explain it to you.
My message to Greg about the minister and there "not being two rights to a debate" was covering Christs sacrifice.

Your post thoroughly ticked me off, because not only did you send me a text wall, but you also missed the entire point. You told me I was being naive and that the world doesn't operate in black and white, over several lines. Thanks for that.

Christians believe that Christ sacrificed himself so that, should we believe in him, go to heaven. A sick minister put out liberal garbage recently that it wasn't "our place to judge atheists," and that "it is only God's right."

This sick minister has preached the gospel for several years, and he goes and tells us that the gospel is wrong? Someone who is a raised Catholic should at least know as much that atheists don't go to heaven.

Why, you might ask? Do you believe that God would give his only son if there was another way? No. Christians believe that believing in Christ's blood is the only way to salvation for our sins.


If someone does something bad in the name of one, it is in one's best interest to speak up, as to not give one a bad name.
Someone did not do something bad in the name of one.

Earlier someone said that Christianity had about 1900 more years to evolve than Evolution?
Explain. Christians have been persecuted for centuries, starting from the birth of Christ. I suggest you read up before you make a baseless claim such as this. Catholics, Protestants, both were persecuted in Europe for a long time, before and during the 1700-1800s.

I'm going to bed. I have neither the interest nor desire to continue a chain conversation spanning ten pages. This is the last post that I'm going to make while I'm in a bad mood.

My post thoroughly ticked you off?! HA!
1. You called me an idiot blatantly with a retarded link.
2. I am able to send a wall of text at you because I have the knowledge to actually type it
3. How can you question my Christianity and faith in God. The minister was right, neither you nor anyone else can judge me besides God. If you do not believe, try reading the Bible sometime (you know the big, important book)

From: Corinthians 4:1-21
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

From: Matthew 7:1-5
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

From: Hebrews 5:1-14
For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. He can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness.

From: John 8:7
And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

From: Luke 6:37
“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

From: Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

This post is mostly directed at Dusk's reply to me…

Just a few things to say. First off, I've long forgotten about the throwing a bunch of links at me deal. It's fine.

Second, taking "under God" out of the Pledge of a country that was founded on God is completely nonsensical. If we do, I believe our status as a worldwide superpower will very quickly fall.

From: Psalms 33:12
Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

Thirdly, "Separation of Church and State" does not mean we have to keep God out of schools. It means we are not to impose any specific religion. "Intelligent Designer" does not fall under any one religion, thus, completely constitutional.

Fourthly, the "let us make man in our image" part is very interesting indeed. SKyScripter gave me the following link on the IRC a few weeks ago. Very good read,

http://www.lightplanet.com/response/answers/gods.htm

Lastly, both LordGregGreg and myself (Been talking to him on AIM.) agree that if Darwin were still around today, he would fully agree with giving children a choice between Creation and Evolution. Charles Darwin was a philosopher, correct? Why would a philosopher with such a great mind want to keep a child from reasoning on his own?

Of course, that's not fact. Just something I've been thinking…

That's all. Thanks for listening to me ramble :)

-Mike

From: LordGregGreg
No offence.. but they kinda did. I don't think it really matters how much they were persucuted or not. I supose that may slow it down a little bit.. but still. On a time scale basis, christianty has been around allot more than evolution, not to mention that during the dark ages everyone was kinda forced into a messued up type of christianity.

and tara. I love your whole post. maybe just because of the einstein quotes. But regardless +rep.

Negative.

We claim to live in an Analog world, which although I somehow doubt, as there is no proof…

Anyway, we believe that laws do not change place to place in Science. A bomb in America is a bomb in Russia.

You could argue that "Change over Time," as it is called now, has had less time to become, but that is not true. Putting it in a timeline, yes, it would show Christianity formed next to Islam and after Judaism, with nearly two milleniums to come before Evolution is given its name.

But you have forgotten that Evolution is a Scientifical one. It is based on assumptions from figures, statistics, historical "accounts," and so on.

Evolution so claimed happens over a long time, and should leave physical evidence everywhere. One could argue that Evolution, put on a timeline, was millions of years before Judaism.

From: Dusk412
My post thoroughly ticked you off?! HA!
1. You called me an idiot blatantly with a retarded link.
2. I am able to send a wall of text at you because I have the knowledge to actually type it
3. How can you question my Christianity and faith in God. The minister was right, neither you nor anyone else can judge me besides God. If you do not believe, try reading the Bible sometime (you know the big, important book)

1. Yep
2. Not much
3. Reread, except this time, with a brain.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a siggy to change.

From: Jason2gs
Second, taking "under God" out of the Pledge of a country that was founded on God is completely nonsensical. If we do, I believe our status as a worldwide superpower will very quickly fall.

The United States was not founded so much on God as the ideal of freedom from persecution because of religion. Therefore many people of specific religions fled and created states where they could (somewhat hypocritcally) practice their religion (and no one else's) freely. But there were several religions and some states were founded on complete religious freedom. Also, many people ran from England just to escape past crimes and start over.

From: Jason2gs
Thirdly, "Separation of Church and State" does not mean we have to keep God out of schools. It means we are not to impose any specific religion. "Intelligent Designer" does not fall under any one religion, thus, completely constitutional.

Yes you could teach Intelligent design ONLY if you also equally taught atheism, evolution, monotheism, and religions with different beliefs such as reincarnation or multiple gods (because not all religions believe in God or that there is even just one God).

From: Jason2gs
Lastly, both LordGregGreg and myself (Been talking to him on AIM.) agree that if Darwin were still around today, he would fully agree with giving children a choice between Creation and Evolution. Charles Darwin was a philosopher, correct? Why would a philosopher with such a great mind want to keep a child from reasoning on his own?

Of course, that's not fact. Just something I've been thinking…

That is quite possible. But to get all this equally taught in schools would be EXTREMELY difficult because there are not only people who do not want Creationism taught, many religious leaders do not want Evolution taught either. It would have 3 sides, 2 that do not want the mix, and only 1 that does.

@Jason2gs beneath me: I laughed too lol… just a typo, no big deal though. It is just funny like when people try to call you stupid and spell it stpuid or something.

-ANGRY!-
Okay JackLKrawl I am going to report you if you pull this crap one more time. I cite not one but six bible quotes for you that prove my point. You come and say I am an idiot and should try using my brain. What kind of a comeback is that?! If you EVER state anything else on this thread without some PROOF, I WILL REPORT YOU!

READ MATTHEW 7:1
"Judge not, that you be not judged"

From: JackLKrawl
But you have forgotten that Evolution is a Scientifical one.

I seriously burst out laughing with this one.

"Scientifical", I'm afraid, is not a word.

From: Dusk412
The United States was not founded so much on God as the ideal of freedom from persecution because of religion. Therefore many people of specific religions fled and created states where they could (somewhat hypocritcally) practice their religion (and no one else's) freely. But there were several religions and some states were founded on complete religious freedom. Also, many people ran from England just to escape past crimes and start over.

I see. So why was "under God" put there in the first place?

From: Dusk412
Yes you could teach Intelligent design ONLY if you also equally taught atheism, evolution, monotheism, and religions with different beliefs such as reincarnation or multiple gods (because not all religions believe in God or that there is even just one God).

Atheism - Yes.
Evolution - Yes.
Creation - Yes.
Monotheism - Belongs under Creation, I would think.
Reincarnation - I don't think reincarnation tries to explain how life was created. No thanks.
"Other religions" - This would be unconstitutional, as you said in a previous post.

We're down to Atheism, Evolution, and Creation. That wasn't that hard, was it?

From: Dusk412
That is quite possible. But to get all this equally taught in schools would be EXTREMELY difficult because there are not only people who do not want Creationism taught, many religious leaders do not want Evolution taught either. It would have 3 sides, 2 that do not want the mix, and only 1 that does.

I don't see how it would be any more complicated than, say, politics.

From: JackLKrawl
Negative.

We claim to live in an Analog world, which although I somehow doubt, as there is no proof…[LEFT][/LEFT]

Anyway, we believe that laws do not change place to place in Science. A bomb in America is a bomb in Russia.

You could argue that "Change over Time," as it is called now, has had less time to become, but that is not true. Putting it in a timeline, yes, it would show Christianity formed next to Islam and after Judaism, with nearly two milleniums to come before Evolution is given its name.

But you have forgotten that Evolution is a Scientifical one. It is based on assumptions from figures, statistics, historical "accounts," and so on.

Evolution so claimed happens over a long time, and should leave physical evidence everywhere. One could argue that Evolution, put on a timeline, was millions of years before Judaism.

hmm, thats a bit weird of a way to look at it.. its kinda a pointles thing to realy prove who has had more time to evolve their theory… the best i can see coming form it is "so yeah.. bear with us while we figure it out all the way"

ayhow, jack and dusk, go to sleep, lol. yall both need it .

dan… I meant that I think it a place where science will always fail in… we can never really know about the starting time of the universe and neither can we really know everything about the universe as I said before. It will always be a mystery to us unless string theory is proven to us…

I don't bieleave in the catholic church and niether my religion teacher either but I guess you could say I bieleave in god in a much more simpiler way… Priest use to keep Mexican Indians ignorent by telling them that devil will come after them if they don't do this or that… therefor I don't really have faith in the catholic church… Plus im Greek orthodox so I don't get the same bullcrap you guys might always hear at school…

From: Orbital

I don't bieleave in the catholic church and niether my religion teacher either but I guess you could say I bieleave in god in a much more simpiler way… Priest use to keep Mexican Indians ignorent by telling them that devil will come after them if they don't do this or that… therefor I don't really have faith in the catholic church… Plus im Greek orthodox so I don't get the same bullcrap you guys might always hear at school…

be carefull not to target specific religons if you can, can really upset people.

im pretty sure most every religon has their skeltons. And im pprety sure almost every mom has used the heaven and hell story to help their children behave, lol.

And fogive me.. but the string theory.. im kinda rusty on it. As far as i remeber it kinda became obsolete and some other one replaced it.

But assuming it was proven true. what would that mean? (about the universe etc)
(i wiki ed it. and i found it interesting to note that the stirng theory has been disregarded as science, because they dont see any posible ways to flasify it in the near future. , food for thought)

I just saw a small documentart on it… Don't know to much about it… all I know is string theory can explain the existance of all things… it makes up the universe with 11 dimentions and there are 5 different types of string theory…

I think a good way of putting it is that there infantly small and are tiny pieces of connected energy string in different shapes

From: Yakman
sorry if this sounds like a personal attack, i agree with all your other stuff

No problem, I didn't take it as one, nor am I trying to attack religion in my debates, sorry if it comes out like that.

From: LordGregGreg

What is this??! Why do you try to judge and sterotype something that you don't even understand!? Ok, look, let me make this definition right now. There are people who say they belive or feel they belive because they are weak and wanted superficial comfort (or perhaps the social comfort of church) and people who only belive because of people they know belive. That imho is not truely beliving. Sure, you can call people like that insecure, but not me. I did not become a beliver because anyone I knew was ( it was very much to the contrary and I got allot of crap because of it ), nor was it because I needed comfort. I mean, Hell, I don't even want to be a believer! I'm just stuck with evidence that I can not deny.

I will have you know I understand religion better than you think. My group of friends at uni consists of 60% Christian, and these are not just 'casual' Christians. They are people who study the bible every morning, go to prayer meetings 3 times a week, attend church at least once a week etc. and we discuss it a lot.

All of the stuff I have said about Christianity here has come from them, about how you have to love Jesus and that he died for you to get into heaven etc. so if you are saying they are incorrect, you are all contradicting each other.

and i'm interested to know your evidence to believe in God. Please explain. Also on another note, I am interested to know if you personally believe in evolution?

From: LordGregGreg

and if heaven doesnt excist, ure still ok

but you have wasted a lot of your life going to church, praying to someone who doesn't exist, trying to convert others to believe in a non existant God etc. That must be a blow to the head if you find out that all of your work was for nothing.

From: LordGregGreg

no. this is not true. In fact, even people who are athiest can get into heaven if they lead a good life. God is just and jesus is very forgiving. Everyone gets a fair shot at choosing to believe or not.

You are contradicting my friends, who I assure you are devout Christians. They say that only by believing that Jesus died for you will get you into Heaven.

From: LordGregGreg

like i said before, i am complelty against the fu**ed up religions who got it all worng.

How do you know yours is the right religion? Or even the right version of Christianity, since there seems to be so many different branches of it.

From: LordGreGreg

I asked, prayed and got an answer.

How did you get an answer? Did something happen? Because that could be coincidence. Did he speak to you? Because that could be your subconscious giving you your answer. To me, praying is just looking inside of yourself and getting an answer. (Which I have no problem with)

From: Dusk412

but many of them actually were brainwashed,

They were not necessarily brain washed, its their own interpretation (or their parents / mentors) of the Koran. Also, its a very narrow minded thing to say, because you could say exactly the same thing about Christianity (about being brainwashed).

From: Dusk412

Ah, Starblaster. You are sort of assuming this is Christians vs. atheists but it is actually theists vs. atheists

You are of course correct, I am generalizing to the Christians, but thats because its the one I know most about; I have a lot of close Christian friends.


Once again, I apologize if any of my posts sound like attacks, I am just very interested in the subject.

From: Jason2gs
I see. So why was "under God" put there in the first place?

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.
Quote from http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm.

From: Jason2gs

Atheism - Yes.
Evolution - Yes.
Creation - Yes.
Monotheism - Belongs under Creation, I would think.
Reincarnation - I don't think reincarnation tries to explain how life was created. No thanks.
"Other religions" - This would be unconstitutional, as you said in a previous post.

We're down to Atheism, Evolution, and Creation. That wasn't that hard, was it?



I don't see how it would be any more complicated than, say, politics.

Okay so maybe not reincarnation but religions with multiple Gods would need to be included as well as the different Creationist theories for monotheistic religions. I do not recall saying having other religions being unconstitutional but if I said something to that effect, it was supposed to mean that teaching anything about God is unconstitutional in my opinion. No need to argue about that though. Assuming we are adding it, there would be a LOT of different theories to teach.

Only as complicated as politics lol? For example this years decision on the democratic nomination still isn’t finished, let alone the Presidential race, and as of April 30, 2008, Obama alone had $46,555,057. They are spending months traveling state to state making hundreds of speeches and debates. In fact, politics is perhaps one of the single most complicated things in the world.

From: Starblaster100
but you have wasted a lot of your life going to church, praying to someone who doesn't exist, trying to convert others to believe in a non existant God etc. That must be a blow to the head if you find out that all of your work was for nothing.

Except if there is no God and you were wrong, it won’t be a blow to the head since … you know… you will just be dead lol.

From: Starblaster100
They were not necessarily brain washed, its their own interpretation (or their parents / mentors) of the Koran. Also, its a very narrow minded thing to say, because you could say exactly the same thing about Christianity (about being brainwashed).

I am referring to the suicide bombers. They really do not interpret the Koran on their own to my understanding, but are convinced by religious ‘leaders’ and are sort-of brainwashed into believing it is the right thing to do.
From a guy who wrote a book about it:

Q – Describe the culture that manufactures suicide bombers.
A – Oppression, lack of freedom, brain washing, organized poverty, placing God in charge of daily life, total separation between men and women, forbidding sex, giving women no power whatsoever, and placing men in charge of family honor, which is mainly connected to their women’s behavior.

So it is sort of a societal problem more than anything else and a rather non-conventional brainwashing type thing. Also, you may have heard they are using children more and more often, and I kind of doubt that children fully understand the Koran enough to make a decision about taking their own life. In my mind, the only way to get a child to do that is to scare them into it by threats of hell (kind of like brainwashing, right?) and to tell them it is the only way to save the family honor, etc.

And I am not saying Christians aren’t brainwashed, they go to Church for at least 1 hour every week getting ideals pounded into them. I am not arguing for that side either lol.

@LordGregGreg: Telling me to get some sleep lol. You were probably right though it was like 2am and I was getting to angry to debate properly. JackLKrawl just makes me quite mad sometimes… lol. Anyways, this debate is getting quite interesting, wouldn’t you say everyone?

Look here the one thing you need to know guys, Religion is the biggest bullshit story since the beginning of ManKind. Christianity was created by a group of politicians who wanted to control the people. Using religion, politicians can convince the people to be obedient, to not break laws, to give them money, to respect their ruler, and to go to war.

From: Dusk412
The United States was not founded so much on God as the ideal of freedom from persecution because of religion. Therefore many people of specific religions fled and created states where they could (somewhat hypocritcally) practice their religion (and no one else's) freely. But there were several religions and some states were founded on complete religious freedom. Also, many people ran from England just to escape past crimes and start over.



Yes you could teach Intelligent design ONLY if you also equally taught atheism, evolution, monotheism, and religions with different beliefs such as reincarnation or multiple gods (because not all religions believe in God or that there is even just one God).



That is quite possible. But to get all this equally taught in schools would be EXTREMELY difficult because there are not only people who do not want Creationism taught, many religious leaders do not want Evolution taught either. It would have 3 sides, 2 that do not want the mix, and only 1 that does.

@Jason2gs beneath me: I laughed too lol… just a typo, no big deal though. It is just funny like when people try to call you stupid and spell it stpuid or something.

-ANGRY!-
Okay JackLKrawl I am going to report you if you pull this crap one more time. I cite not one but six bible quotes for you that prove my point. You come and say I am an idiot and should try using my brain. What kind of a comeback is that?! If you EVER state anything else on this thread without some PROOF, I WILL REPORT YOU!

READ MATTHEW 7:1
"Judge not, that you be not judged"

You cited six of the same and are still boring me.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Atheists go to hell, those who believe in Jesus Christ and that he died for our sins will go to heaven.
Someone who claims to be a born and raised Catholic should at least know this much.

@Jason
Scientifical
Bursts out laughing*

From: Dusk412

Sorry but when I read this the first thing I thought of was, what is the clear use to humanity of shakespeare?

A similar sort of use as Of Mice and Men

From: Dusk412

The next thing I thought of is that religion does have a use to humanity. Whether religion is correct or not, in essence, is irrelevant for several reasons.

1. It helps humanity cope with the idea of death and what happens after death.

2. Without religion there would be millions, even billions, of people with no place to go for help and support.

3. It not only gives financial and emotional support to those who need it, it gives moral support as well and keeps many people on Earth from becoming moral-less.

no, all of those 3 points are wrong, heres why.

1. iv heard that in a recent poll, 95% of people in america believe they will survive their own death. religion tell you that right?
when a woman a told she has months to live, why doesnt she beam with excitement as though she's won a holiday to Barbados, why dont her relatives crowd around her bed saying "oh have fun, i wish i was going", and "say hello to Uncle Bob when you see him"

iv heard somewhere from a poll in an old peoples home, if your religious you're more likely to be really scared of death,

if you had a cat that was dying, it would be considered cruelty if you did not take it to the vet to have it put down,
but if you did the same thing to a person, in some countries where religion is powerful, that would be considered murder,
why is it that the strongest lobby against euthanasia come from religious grounds? surely these are the people who should be the least afraid of death?


2. Charity is not equal to Religion. Oxfam, Red Cross, Help the aged, Save the children, ect ect are not run by religion,
Alcoholics Anonymous is not run by a religion, neither are many organisations which helps people get off drugs or domestic violence.
of course there are cases of religion and charity being linked, such as that charity called Christian Aid, but its by no means everything, if religion stopped existing tomorrow, charity would still exist.

3. religion does not give rise to morals and we should really get rid of that horrible misconception,
I've heard a lot of people saying that without religion, there would be no morals, they point to some holy books as examples,
in holy books, there is both good and bad, if you want good, you can find it, if you want bad, you can find it.
today, no-one seriously takes the idea that you should stone a woman to death if she i not a virgin at marriage, or that you cannot work on the sabbath,

how lets say someone is reading the bible for the first time, and they come across a passage which tells them to do bad things, how do they know not to follow it?
the answer is that they already have morals which they use to separate the good from the bad in that book.

with the notable exception with the Afghan Taliban and the American Christan equivalent, we all follow a similar set of morals, regardless of religion, we dont cause needless suffering, we protect free speech even if we dont like what is being said, we pay taxes, we dont cheat, we dont kill, we dont commit incest, we dont do things to others that we wouldnt like done to ourselves,
some of these rules can be found in holy books, but alongside them are rules which certainly no decent person would follow, and these holy books do not supply any guidelines to tell between the good rules and the bad rules.

therefore, our morals do not come from holy books, them come from somewhere else,

From: JackLKrawl
You cited six of the same and are still boring me.

Atheists go to hell, those who believe in Jesus Christ and that he died for our sins will go to heaven.
Someone who claims to be a born and raised Catholic should at least know this much.

Take it easy, no need to flame him for having an opinion. You should respect it (or don't post).

From: Yakman
A similar sort of use as Of Mice and Men
with the notable exception with the Afghan Taliban and the American Christan equivalent, we all follow a similar set of morals, regardless of religion, we dont cause needless suffering, we protect free speech even if we dont like what is being said, we pay taxes, we dont cheat, we dont kill, we dont commit incest, we dont do things to others that we wouldnt like done to ourselves,
some of these rules can be found in holy books, but alongside them are rules which certainly no decent person would follow, and these holy books do not supply any guidelines to tell between the good rules and the bad rules.

therefore, our morals do not come from holy books, them come from somewhere else,

American Christian equivalent? You have me stumped, do you mean the Evangelists?

From: nielsie95
Take it easy, no need to flame him for having an opinion. You should respect it (or don't post).

Sorry

From: Starblaster100
I will have you know I understand religion better than you think. My group of friends at uni consists of 60% Christian, and these are not just 'casual' Christians. They are people who study the bible every morning, go to prayer meetings 3 times a week, attend church at least once a week etc. and we discuss it a lot.

Well,thats all good and dandy. (they kinda sound like zombies tho..>.>) But this whole stuff about only weak people becoming religious (or only beliving because someone else did) is absolutely wrong. It may be true for your freinds, but not even close for me.

From: Starblaster100

All of the stuff I have said about Christianity here has come from them, about how you have to love Jesus and that he died for you to get into heaven etc. so if you are saying they are incorrect, you are all contradicting each other.

sure, we may contradict each other on some things. You can read and interprit the bible in any way you want to really. Unless you are being guided by the spirit you can take passages to mean something they don't, or miss key points entirely.

From: Starblaster100

and i'm interested to know your evidence to believe in God. Please explain. Also on another note, I am interested to know if you personally believe in evolution?

I already have kinda explained it a post or two ago if your interested. And evolution, I sorta believe it. I mean there is evidence their that can not be denyed, there was defanitly a patern in the fosils found, etc. But i dont see it as a way to take god out of the creation picture. I think evolution is more of "how" he did things. Up above I kinda explained where I got my hints from the bible about this.

From: Starblaster100

but you have wasted a lot of your life going to church, praying to someone who doesn't exist, trying to convert others to believe in a non existant God etc. That must be a blow to the head if you find out that all of your work was for nothing.

yeah, so it is either that, or hell. Anyhows, i really think it's a very bad reason to believe anyways, i don't want to defend it anymore.

From: Starblaster100
You are contradicting my friends, who I assure you are devout Christians. They say that only by believing that Jesus died for you will get you into Heaven.

well, they may have the details a little bit off. But they are generally right. At some point, you are going to have to let christ take care of your sins for you. But, it is also possible that an athiest never really had a chance to convert while he or she was alive, and they will get that after they die.

From: Starblaster100
How do you know yours is the right religion? Or even the right version of Christianity, since there seems to be so many different branches of it.

Well, that all stems back to the big prayr I had, because I asked about a specific one. But really, I still get answers to my prayrs when I need them, and thats how i check myself to make sure im not folowing someones religion, but gods instead.

From: Starblaster100

How did you get an answer? Did something happen? Because that could be coincidence. Did he speak to you? Because that could be your subconscious giving you your answer. To me, praying is just looking inside of yourself and getting an answer. (Which I have no problem with)

No, it wasn't a well timed lighting bolt, or anything physical like that. lol. And no, he didn't speak to me. Not sure why, that seems like a valid mode of comunication. But if you want the play by play, I asked my question, waitied about 2 seconds or so, and then my upper chest started, feeling in a way I really havn't felt before. And then I started crying because of that feeling and the only thought in my head, was that he does exist. I havn't felt that feeling as strongly as I did then for a long while.. but I do get smaller feeling that feel the same way, and its really only when I am praying or being charitable.

From: soupybastard
Look here the one thing you need to know guys, Religion is the biggest bullshit story since the beginning of ManKind. Christianity was created by a group of politicians who wanted to control the people. Using religion, politicians can convince the people to be obedient, to not break laws, to give them money, to respect their ruler, and to go to war.

Ok, you reall don't make your self look good here. If you are going to directly attack so strongly, and use words like "biggest bullshit" you need to at least back yourself up. Name your politicians. Name that group of them so others can look it up. Yes, i do know what you are refereing to. (least i think i do) But you need to give evidence, otherwize you look like a flaming lunatic.

@radicle MUSLUMS and people who go off killing people for their religion. I am not going to talk about them. I don't understand them enough to properly have a round story. All i know is that I think they are Fu**ed up, and muslums think they are fu**ed up.

From: yakman

when a woman a told she has months to live, why doesnt she beam with excitement as though she's won a holiday to Barbados, why dont her relatives crowd around her bed saying "oh have fun, i wish i was going", and "say hello to Uncle Bob when you see him"

Ever have a relative die? You feel the same way as any person who belives in life afterwards. The point is they still are leaving you.

Most people have a bigg fear of the unknown. Death scares them because they don't know what is going to happen. So to some people who would hate that, religion does help them cope, and help comfort them.

From: yakman

therefore, our morals do not come from holy books, them come from somewhere else,

yeah, i have to agree with that. But some people need the extra guidance. Not to mention that religion kinda helps explain more about your morals, like teaching you the reason you don't steal stuff from people, is becuase you wouldnt like it yourself.

Do any Christians here have to tell themselves that God exists every night before they go to bed so that they can cope with the fear of dieing?

From: JackLKrawl
Do any Christians here have to tell themselves that God exists every night before they go to bed so that they can cope with the fear of dieing?

Lol, yes. Every night i get so scared of not waking up.. i just keep repeating "please let god exist.. please let god exist.. please let god exist" just incase i die.

Sarcasm asside, i dont think anyone really fears death much each night. But, at times when you are worried you could loose your life, its at least something to take comfort in.

From: LordGregGreg
Lol, yes. Every night i get so scared of not waking up.. i just keep repeating "please let god exist.. please let god exist.. please let god exist" just incase i die.

Sarcasm asside, i dont think anyone really fears death much each night. But, at times when you are worried you could loose your life, its at least something to take comfort in.

Yeah, I do the same thing.
It's just so utterly terrifying and rational.

I think we can cross out religion was created to comfort ourselves.

I personally believe that is why religion was created. Think about death for just a second. After you die, how do you know the universe continues to exist? Does it matter? The only way you know that anything exists is by your senses: sight, hearing, taste, touch, smell, and thought. In death (without religion) you become a dead corpse. You no longer can perceive the world in any shape or form. Think of the blackest night where you cannot even think and you are utterly alone and there is nothing and no one near by. That is the closest the human mind can come to comprehending death. Now if you believe you will float up into the sky and still be able to see the world going on below you and see all your friends later, well isn't that much easier to think about? (very crude, I know, but you get the gist of it).

From: Dusk412
I personally believe that is why religion was created. [explaination]

Yes, quite a few of them were. Expecially the older ones. Religion was just like the folk tales for all the questions people couldn't answer. "where did the zebra get his stripes?" oh, God's generticly altering eternal paintbrush was running out of ink in a stirpe like pattern.

But there are some religions that really wern't made because of that. Just because my religion explains what happens after death doesn't mean it was created for that purpose. It may apear that way.. but thats only because the "after death" part is a big reason for the "here on earth" part.

From: Dusk412
I personally believe that is why religion was created. Think about death for just a second. After you die, how do you know the universe continues to exist? Does it matter? The only way you know that anything exists is by your senses: sight, hearing, taste, touch, smell, and thought. In death (without religion) you become a dead corpse. You no longer can perceive the world in any shape or form. Think of the blackest night where you cannot even think and you are utterly alone and there is nothing and no one near by. That is the closest the human mind can come to comprehending death. Now if you believe you will float up into the sky and still be able to see the world going on below you and see all your friends later, well isn't that much easier to think about? (very crude, I know, but you get the gist of it).

Not at all. There are people who actually spend their lives trying to get an idea of what heaven is like.

People, the only proof of a creator is the creation. C.S. Lewis once said that if everything was dark, we would have no eyes and wouldn't know of its existence. There are other things I could be doing other than convince Dusk that justice isn't political acceptance.

From: LordGregGreg
Yes, quite a few of them were. Expecially the older ones. Religion was just like the folk tales for all the questions people couldn't answer. "where did the zebra get his stripes?" oh, God's generticly altering eternal paintbrush was running out of ink in a stirpe like pattern.

But there are some religions that really wern't made because of that. Just because my religion explains what happens after death doesn't mean it was created for that purpose. It may apear that way.. but thats only because the "after death" part is a big reason for the "here on earth" part.

Folk tales were fun stories and no one took them seriously. Do you worship Paul Bungyun? Well, I guess there are certain cults that do - I actually googled one and found this

The purpose of Christianity is to spread the good news.

From: Dusk412

@LordGregGreg: Telling me to get some sleep lol. You were probably right though it was like 2am and I was getting to angry to debate properly. JackLKrawl just makes me quite mad sometimes… lol. Anyways, this debate is getting quite interesting, wouldn’t you say everyone?

What did I do to upset you? Tell you that, word for word from the Bible, that believing in Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved, and that it is beyond human means to do so on your own?

honestly i don't think god is real know one can explain what he looks like or has ever seen him in my opinion he isn't real.

From: JackLKrawl

What did I do to upset you? Tell you that, word for word from the Bible, that believing in Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved, and that it is beyond human means to do so on your own?

I told you before, give me the passage or nobody here will believe you. I can say, I quote word for word the bible says this: "JackLKrawl needs to quote me better because otherwise no one believes him". I swear to God it is in there. You just gotta read the whole thing again and find it. Oh and then if you don't find it, read it again with a brain. That is pretty much what you have been doing. Give me a quote, with where I can find it, and then maybe we will having something worth talking about.

From: brent8900
honestly i don't think god is real know one can explain what he looks like or has ever seen him in my opinion he isn't real.

Well, that doesnt really fit the topic. i can give you a few hints though.
If you are wanting info on a christian god… genisis says that we were made in his image. So god is just a perfect one of us.. sorta. And jesus, he looked like a jew.

and no, i havn't seen him. Ive seen some picture that suposobly "enlightened" people drew (or jesus) but im not really sure i belive that…. yeah… i dont.

From: Dusk412
I told you before, give me the passage or nobody here will believe you. I can say, I quote word for word the bible says this: "JackLKrawl needs to quote me better because otherwise no one believes him". I swear to God it is in there. You just gotta read the whole thing again and find it. Oh and then if you don't find it, read it again with a brain. That is pretty much what you have been doing. Give me a quote, with where I can find it, and then maybe we will having something worth talking about.

So you think everyone goes to heaven?

"Saying something like this is comparable to the minister who, a few months ago, said it wasn't his place to say who did or did not go to heaven or hell, based on what religion they were of. If you dare ask me why this is sickening, I will be very disgusted in you."

How can you possibly disagree with this? This is preschool knowledge, raised Catholic. Hindus, Atheists, anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ is going to go to hell.

Heres a refresher on what you claim to have been your life.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son (John 3:16-18).

I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die (John 11:25-26).

From: LordGregGreg
Well, that doesnt really fit the topic. i can give you a few hints though.
If you are wanting info on a christian god… genisis says that we were made in his image. So god is just a perfect one of us.. sorta. And jesus, he looked like a jew.

and no, i havn't seen him. Ive seen some picture that suposobly "enlightened" people drew (or jesus) but im not really sure i belive that…. yeah… i dont.

Google the Trinity.

@ Dusk
Now I'm tired of talking to you. This is pure spam for Yakman's thread.
You claim to be a raised Catholic, but you look negatively on spending 1/168 of your precious hours to learn about God. Judge not lest you be judged? I wasn't even questioning your faith earlier until you wrote dumb stuff complaining about Church being an hour long service. If you don't like it don't go, no one is forcing you, but when you go out and insult that of your own religion, it does make people wonder.

From: JackLKrawl
So you think everyone goes to heaven?

"Saying something like this is comparable to the minister who, a few months ago, said it wasn't his place to say who did or did not go to heaven or hell, based on what religion they were of. If you dare ask me why this is sickening, I will be very disgusted in you."

How can you possibly disagree with this? This is preschool knowledge, raised Catholic. Hindus, Atheists, anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ is going to go to hell.

Heres a refresher on what you claim to have been your life.





Google the Trinity.

@ Dusk
Now I'm tired of talking to you. This is pure spam for Yakman's thread.
You claim to be a raised Catholic, but you look negatively on spending 1/168 of your precious hours to learn about God. Judge not lest you be judged? I wasn't even questioning your faith earlier until you wrote dumb stuff complaining about Church being an hour long service. If you don't like it don't go, no one is forcing you, but when you go out and insult that of your own religion, it does make people wonder.

Thanks for teh quotes, took long enough lol.

When did I say I did not like going to church. I have no problem, that is why I attend. If i stated something like that, it was merely to play devils advocate (so to speak) and further the discussion by stimulating debate and questions. Half the things I say here, I do not believe, I just say them so that people will half to fight to protect there points, rather than making claims and assuming everyone should absolutely agree all the time lol. Seems kind of pointless, but hey… I'm doing the same as many on this thread.

I believe in God & Jesus. I'll tell you one reason:

Why would someone write up a whole book (the bible) consisting of over 900 pages for nothing or the muslim bible (forgot what it's called)? To me, all religions are the same, they worship the same, just call things differently and celebrate different things.

From: IP-Drowner
I believe in God & Jesus. I'll tell you one reason:

Why would someone write up a whole book (the bible) consisting of over 900 pages for nothing or the muslim bible (forgot what it's called)? To me, all religions are the same, they worship the same, just call things differently and celebrate different things.

This really isnt that good of a reason honestly. People do things for all sorts of weird reasons. And many many book have been written that are much longer. Just becuase you write a big book doesnt mean you ro the book is right, even if it does become a best seller.
As for reasons why? well, it could be because god was guiding them and told them all (the diferent authors) what to write.
Or it could be because someone wanted to write the most popular book in the world.
Or it could be because someone wanted to write up a religion and get lots fo people to follow it, in hopes of makeing the world a beter place, but making up all the God stuff.
Or it could be because that person wanted to write someone allot lof people would belive in so he could manipulate their minds and control them.

From: JackLKrawl
google the trinity

Oh, yeah, i already know about the trilogy. I googled it and nothig particulary interesting came up. Have you googled it? or what did you want me to see? Was your point to just point out that I didnt meantion 3 bodies, and just one at a time?

From: LordGregGreg
This really isnt that good of a reason honestly. People do things for all sorts of weird reasons. And many many book have been written that are much longer. Just becuase you write a big book doesnt mean you ro the book is right, even if it does become a best seller.
As for reasons why? well, it could be because god was guiding them and told them all (the diferent authors) what to write.
Or it could be because someone wanted to write the most popular book in the world.
Or it could be because someone wanted to write up a religion and get lots fo people to follow it, in hopes of makeing the world a beter place, but making up all the God stuff.
Or it could be because that person wanted to write someone allot lof people would belive in so he could manipulate their minds and control them.

Oh, yeah, i already know about the trilogy. I googled it and nothig particulary interesting came up. Have you googled it? or what did you want me to see? Was your point to just point out that I didnt meantion 3 bodies, and just one at a time?

You told him Jesus looked like a Jew, which is actually kind of offensive lol xD

From: JackLKrawl
You told him Jesus looked like a Jew, which is actually kind of offensive lol xD

I was talking about jesus when he was on earth.
Calling him a Jew isn't offensive.. that's exactly what he was.

From: LordGregGreg
I was talking about jesus when he was on earth.
Calling him a Jew isn't offensive.. that's exactly what he was.

yeah its not offensive, Jesus was jewish lol

My family is mainly religious (Christian, of course). But nobody goes to church at Sundays or such. They go to church for family-weddings, funerals and at christmas day.

But I was brought up with room to choose. I was never forced to read the bible or forced to do or not do something religious.

So now I am an atheist. I've decided to not believe in God. I have no proof against him. I just have a feeling that faith requires you to be naive.

If I find out that God exists, and I'm gonna end in Hell, I'll make sure I have the heck of a time down there!

From: oliver1205
yeah its not offensive, Jesus was jewish lol

You can get sued for telling an arab he looks like a Muslim. =/

From: King of Knives
My family is mainly religious (Christian, of course). But nobody goes to church at Sundays or such. They go to church for family-weddings, funerals and at christmas day.

But I was brought up with room to choose. I was never forced to read the bible or forced to do or not do something religious.

So now I am an atheist. I've decided to not believe in God. I have no proof against him. I just have a feeling that faith requires you to be naive.

If I find out that God exists, and I'm gonna end in Hell, I'll make sure I have the heck of a time down there!

You will, I promise. xD

VenomfangX on youtube.

Enough said :)

youll see how he throws everyone off and hes a christian :D

From: JackLKrawl
You can get sued for telling an arab he looks like a Muslim. =/

That is different. Not all Arabs are Muslim. Arabs are an extremely large ethnic group. All Jesuses are jewish. So telling jesus that he looks like himself is not offensive. And which Jew would get mad that their savior looks like them.

From: FornxXx
VenomfangX on youtube.

Enough said :)

youll see how he throws everyone off and hes a christian :D

Yeah, I looked at his videos. At first I was very impressed, but after pming him, asking him about the Ice Age…

http://freehovind.com/watch-4308235066145651150

Meh, I guess it's ok to read from a computer screen, but…

From: Dusk412
That is different. Not all Arabs are Muslim. Arabs are an extremely large ethnic group. All Jesuses are jewish. So telling jesus that he looks like himself is not offensive. And which Jew would get mad that their savior looks like them.

…Jews don't believe that Jesus was their savior.

I believe that god exists, but what about satan and hell? I think hell is not a place of torture and punishment i think it's a good place, but i think heaven is a good place too. But i only think that god exists, i don't believe that he created the world, cause then he would have created all the other planets and the whole universe. How come there is like a million planets in the whole universe and god has created them all in 7 days? How the planets at the moment are coming out? Does god create them? how? If there was only god how he had came and how he had created the world and universe? There is a lot of questions, but just a few answers.

From: JackLKrawl

…Jews don't believe that Jesus was their savior.

Oh yea, I was tired OK? Anyways the rest of it makes sense though lol.

I believe that God is science, science is God. It's actually quite a simple concept if you think about it long enough.

I saw this on Family guy! Jesus dared God to eat some Chili and when god did Jesus made him fart and put a lighter behind Gods butt and the universe was b0rn

From: IceFire908
I believe that God is science, science is God. It's actually quite a simple concept if you think about it long enough.

Science is God makes sense, but if you mean that God is science in the assumption God is real, then i dont agree.(you could interpret "God is science" a different way(meaning, not assuming God exists), in which i do agree that it makes sense :))

(this whole God thing im talking about should be saying "God", but i forgot to, so meh)

From: Dan Cardin
Science is God makes sense, but if you mean that God is science in the assumption God is real, then i dont agree.(you could interpret "God is science" a different way(meaning, not assuming God exists), in which i do agree that it makes sense :))

(this whole God thing im talking about should be saying "God", but i forgot to, so meh)

The implication was that they are both the same exact thing.

From what you said all I can tell is that you disagree simply because it refers to God being real which you are against simply because it refers to 'God', that or you really don't know what you're saying but you're trying to say "I agree" but elaborated way to much then changed your mind at the end. So, yea, I'll take that as a "I agree".

I believe in the scientific way of creation "The Big Bang" I have in no way a belief in religion or god for that matter. Sorry if i offend anybody, this is just my personal opinion

From: Sc00by22
I believe in the scientific way of creation "The Big Bang" I have in no way a belief in religion or god for that matter. Sorry if i offend anybody, this is just my personal opinion

Creation and The Big Bang are the exact same thing aka The Big Bang was Creation.

It's like two people arguing over the simple name of something.

Science continually proves god's existence.

From: Bourdou!
Science continually proves god's existence.

evidence? source? back yourself up with a claim like this,
science never does this,

From: IceFire908
I believe that God is science, science is God. It's actually quite a simple concept if you think about it long enough.

no,
god is when people believe there is an invisible man in the sky, who created the universe and is still around today, listening to our prayers,

science is a set of rules and study which explain the universe,
science has no evidence that anything happens when you pray, science has no evidence that the universe was created by a conscious being


iv heard that sometimes, like "science and God are two way of telling the same story"
well they arnt, they are completely different stories,

From: Yakman
evidence? source? back yourself up with a claim like this,
science never does this,




no,
god is when people believe there is an invisible man in the sky, who created the universe and is still around today, listening to our prayers,

science is a set of rules and study which explain the universe,
science has no evidence that anything happens when you pray, science has no evidence that the universe was created by a conscious being


iv heard that sometimes, like "science and God are two way of telling the same story"
well they arnt, they are completely different stories,

Scientists have yet to create life in labs, the more Science grows the more we realize the big bang is less and less likely. If you watched that dude who believed the Earth was 6,000 years old, he went over problems like galaxies spinning backwards, and the perfect orbit of the Earth.

From: IceFire908
The implication was that they are both the same exact thing.

From what you said all I can tell is that you disagree simply because it refers to God being real which you are against simply because it refers to 'God', that or you really don't know what you're saying but you're trying to say "I agree" but elaborated way to much then changed your mind at the end. So, yea, I'll take that as a "I agree".

Nope :). I was trying to say that the more i thought about it the more it sounded like you meant- God is science because God created science, blah, etc. I dont agree with that. But if thats not what you meant then i probably agree :p.

From: Yakman
no,
god is when people believe there is an invisible man in the sky, who created the universe and is still around today, listening to our prayers,

science is a set of rules and study which explain the universe,
science has no evidence that anything happens when you pray, science has no evidence that the universe was created by a conscious being


iv heard that sometimes, like "science and God are two way of telling the same story"
well they arnt, they are completely different stories,

Well, I can see what your saying. Yea some people believe in the magical man in the sky but I guess my beliefs are to complex explain… meh whatever… all I know is that these types of discussions are trivial.

The chance of the right combination of gases and temperature and pressure needed to create life happening in the real world is virtually nill. If you choose to believe that is just pure luck… Well, that is your decision.

Can you define god like that? No.

Some religions portray "a man sitting in the sky" but that is really just a way to try and define the undefinable.

Religion has been around as long as man. Man needs to believe in something, whether it be god or science.

Its pointless trying to prove god's existence/non existence. I personally believe that "god" is life.

Omg , everyone here gets really inspired :p, all I will say is that I think :

Good if god exists or not , Its not a big deal for me, I just live my life and go with the flow, :)

Some people say " If god does not exist then who created the universe?" So well I comeback with this " Then Who created god? Himself? " :p

And also I think that everyone has the option to control their destiny , or let the destiny control them :D

From: Dracody
Omg , everyone here gets really inspired :p, all I will say is that I think :

Good if god exists or not , Its not a big deal for me, I just live my life and go with the flow, :)

Some people say " If god does not exist then who created the universe?" So well I comeback with this " Then Who created god? Himself? " :p

And also I think that everyone has the option to control their destiny , or let the destiny control them :D

K

God wasn't created, God IS. God isn't limited to rules of human logic.

…
K

From: JackLKrawl
K

God wasn't created, God IS. God isn't limited to rules of human logic.

…
K

Thats the best reason you can give for God's actions or should i say lack of action, and everything that is complained about that he doesnt do? That proves nothing. It only tries to serve as a flimsy argument to make up for a lack of reason

From: Dan Cardin
Thats the best reason you can give for God's actions or should i say lack of action, and everything that is complained about that he doesnt do? That proves nothing. It only tries to serve as a flimsy argument to make up for a lack of reason

You expect God to do everything that's good for us? Fat chance. That's like saying I don't believe in science because not everything it does is good.

I have noticed that many many people here get all sorts of confused with the creation. If you have not noticed yet, both sides (god and athiest) have nothing but bull to explain it. Please realize, the validity of each others argument on something like this doesn't lead to anything. Even the big bang theory doesn't even give hints to where everything game from, all It states is that there was a big explosion at the center a long time ago, nothing more.

From: lolislol
How come there is like a million planets in the whole universe and god has created them all in 7 days? How the planets at the moment are coming out? Does god create them? how? If there was only god how he had came and how he had created the world and universe? There is a lot of questions, but just a few answers.

Well, you have a few things confused. You seem to be looking for an explanation from a god point of view, so i wil give you that, no proof, as there is not any, but just an explanation. There is nothing in the bible about the God of abraham creating all of the planets, just earth. There is also many quotes from the bible aluding to there being multiple Gods. How does god do it? Well, he is known to organize the matter that is already there. Want more specifics, you can look to science to see how he forms planets together, universes, solar systems, etc. Science is only an explanation of what god has been doing.

From: yakman

evidence? source? back yourself up with a claim like this,
science never does this,

Ok, evidence; Evolution, nothing more than showing how god did creation. Science talking about how gravity pulled mass together to form planets, nothing more than showing how God organised matter. Scientific laws about how the world works, nothing more than a more deatiled (then the bible, etc) explanation of how God set everything up. Science always does this if you look at it in this light.

From: yakman

no,
god is when people believe there is an invisible man in the sky, who created the universe and is still around today, listening to our prayers,

science is a set of rules and study which explain the universe,
science has no evidence that anything happens when you pray, science has no evidence that the universe was created by a conscious being

This is not proof though. Science has always, and always will be, at a lack of evidence somewhere. Just because they don't have conclusive evidence that god answers prayrs, does not mean he doesnt. I think you already know this, so I will go on. In a religious perspective, science does little more than back up what they already know. Science is just a further explanation of the deatils of this world that god created. From a athiest perspective, they don't see the other side, therefore, you thing God has nothing to do with science, because science does not include god.

Let me simplify it. Religion includes and is supported by Science. Science does not include God.
Therefore, depending on your perspective, yes, science is god.

From: jacklcrawl
Scientists have yet to create life in labs

Um, they have gotten damn close. And defanitly enough to be conclusive for me.
pretty cool huh? I think its absolutly fascinating how the world just, works, lol.

I believe that every mericale that has ever been performed , can, and may one day, be explained by sceince. Water to wine, walking on water, healing the sick, staff turned into a snake, etc. And i reallly look foreward to see how he pulled them off :)

From: dan cardin
That proves nothing. [@ jacklcrawls post]

absolutly right. It is nothing more than an explanation, no proof at all. It is still valid for him though, just perhaps not for you.

I would have to agree with much of what LordGregGreg is saying about the connection between science and God.

As time goes on we are discovering more things about the universe and science as we know it. This leads me to the conclusion that there is a vast unimaginable amount of knowledge in the universe that has yet to be discovered . I believe that everything that is science based has at one time believed to be supernatural of some sort. I imagine that the men who discovered fire thought that spirits aided them or they had some magical power to create it. They didnt think that there was a combustion reaction going on that created the fire…

I then extrapolated this idea that the spiritual things that have happened in this world have been made by science, however we have not discovered how it works or why it happens, therefore we dub it as "spiritual" or "supernatural" due to our lack of knowledge in those areas. I feel that if we understood the universe enough we would be able to understand the dynamics and composition of what makes up an "angle" or a "demon" or even God. Just because we dont understand or cant explain something doesnt mean that it isnt science based, but it means that it has yet to be experimented on and classified in the science world.

There can be no proof of how the universe was created, thus there is only faith. Faith that God created the universe, or faith that the universe was created by the big bang. Each require faith to believe, but neither can be proved.

From: Dan Cardin
Thats the best reason you can give for God's actions or should i say lack of action, and everything that is complained about that he doesnt do? That proves nothing. It only tries to serve as a flimsy argument to make up for a lack of reason

LOL? What are you talking about? I was responding to who created God. Dan, do you know how long it's been since I felt it was worth responding to you? I find myself constantly turning the other cheek to your remarks, but right now I don't feel like doing so. Grow up. Don't you dare insult my God.

@Old Greg

I'm going to PM you about your posts.

Show me any life that scientists have created and I will eat my words. It's only conclusive when you can back your claims.

From: JackLKrawl
LOL? What are you talking about? I was responding to who created God. Dan, do you know how long it's been since I felt it was worth responding to you? I find myself constantly turning the other cheek to your remarks, but right now I don't feel like doing so. Grow up. Don't you dare insult my God.

why is it that we can have a discussion all day long about politics, criticize each others believes, and no-one gets offended or insulted,
yet when we discuss religion, everyone suddenly has to become incredibly respectful and not say anything bad about the other,

people these days disproportionately respectful of religion,

people in Saudi Arabia justify their abuse of women on religious grounds,

if the makers of Apartheid in South Africa had any sense, they would justify it on religious grounds,
"Oh no, we can't allow coloured and white people to mix, it is against our religion"
if they did that, Apartheid would have lasted much longer then it did.

From: LordGregGreg
Ok, evidence; Evolution, nothing more than showing how god did creation. Science talking about how gravity pulled mass together to form planets, nothing more than showing how God organised matter. Scientific laws about how the world works, nothing more than a more deatiled (then the bible, etc) explanation of how God set everything up. Science always does this if you look at it in this light.

Just because they don't have conclusive evidence that god answers prayrs, does not mean he doesnt. I think you already know this, so I will go on. In a religious perspective, science does little more than back up what they already know. Science is just a further explanation of the deatils of this world that god created. From a athiest perspective, they don't see the other side, therefore, you thing God has nothing to do with science, because science does not include god.

Let me simplify it. Religion includes and is supported by Science. Science does not include God.
Therefore, depending on your perspective, yes, science is god.

when science discovers stuff, you cannot help but notice that there is no room left for God,
if God somehow managed to fit in, he must be very very lazy, since he does no work,

and religion is only supported by science because you guys keep changing your story,
"The earth isnt the center of the universe, its just one small corner of a galaxy of which there are many others"
"well the part which said 'God created the earth in the center of everything' is just metaphorical, its interesting how he tricks foolish humans like us, the lord works in mysterious ways :P"

"All living things in the world come from a common ancestor, and they slowly evolved from one another"
"Oh well the creation story is just a dumbed-down version of it, but its really the same thing in essence"


science does not agree with religion, evolution is a blatant contradiction of creation, you simply cannot say they are a different way of telling the same story.

From: LordGregGreg

This is not proof though. Science has always, and always will be, at a lack of evidence somewhere.

so therefore God exists?
this is the god-of-gaps argument
"science can't explain something? no problem, just let God explain it, its easy"
if theory A is incorrect, theory B must be correct :p

From: Yakman
why is it that we can have a discussion all day long about politics, criticize each others believes, and no-one gets offended or insulted,
yet when we discuss religion, everyone suddenly has to become incredibly respectful and not say anything bad about the other,

people these days disproportionately respectful of religion,

people in Saudi Arabia justify their abuse of women on religious grounds,

if the makers of Apartheid in South Africa had any sense, they would justify it on religious grounds,
"Oh no, we can't allow coloured and white people to mix, it is against our religion"
if they did that, Apartheid would have lasted much longer then it did.

Think about it this way. If I walked into your house, and started insulting someone dear to you, would you get offended?

From: JackLKrawl
Think about it this way. If I walked into your house, and started insulting someone dear to you, would you get offended?

i fail to see how this forum is your house, technically no-one has forced you to read this,

although i can see where you're coming from,
but what i fail to see is why it only applies to religion,

many people take their politics very seriously, they go on protest marches, pay membership fees and volunteer their spare time to help their cause,
in short, they do everything a religious person does,

and if you can have a debate with them about it, and no-one will get offended, you will just get a clear "I believe in the Conservative party because of X, Y and Z"

you can replace politics with almost any belief, like "open-source", "women's rights" or "black power"

so what i dont get is why if you try the same thing with religion, people get terribly offended when its not necessary.
what is it about religion that makes is to exclusively uptight

From: Yakman
i fail to see how this forum is your house, technically no-one has forced you to read this,

although i can see where you're coming from,
but what i fail to see is why it only applies to religion,

many people take their politics very seriously, they go on protest marches, pay membership fees and volunteer their spare time to help their cause,
in short, they do everything a religious person does,

and if you can have a debate with them about it, and no-one will get offended, you will just get a clear "I believe in the Conservative party because of X, Y and Z"

you can replace politics with almost any belief, like "open-source", "women's rights" or "black power"

so what i dont get is why if you try the same thing with religion, people get terribly offended when its not necessary.
what is it about religion that makes is to exclusively uptight

This forum isn't my house, I did not mean to make that implication. O_o It's fully open to debate, you can put anything in the Bible to trial and I'll try to answer as patiently and accurately as possible, unless you don't read like Dan.

The reason it doesn't generally apply to politics or science theories, is because you don't believe you have an intimate relationship with your creator. You don't believe you have an intimate relationship with your supernova, so you have no real reason to be offended. I can talk about why Obama isn't a good president, you might get irritated because you like him, but you probably won't be angered or offended by it.

There are more Protestant Sects than you can shake a stick at, so of course you won't get a straight answer or even the same answer except occasionally.

What makes religion exclusively uptight? The religion's beliefs. I believe that Jesus Christ was crucified and that his apostles were hunted down, tortured and murdered to hide the truth. When someone denies something as heinous as this, of course you get angry. It differentiates from Science, because Science "evolves" and thrives off of criticism and doubt - not so much history.

Another example would be the Holocaust. Did you know that they no longer teach it in England and parts of Europe because Muslims do not believe in it? Hundreds of thousands of people were murdered, and they just get waved goodbye in their history books because a dangerous population does not believe the Holocaust happened.

From: Yakman

when science discovers stuff, you cannot help but notice that there is no room left for God

I have yet to find one instance of it.

From: Yakman

if God somehow managed to fit in, he must be very very lazy, since he does no work,

"lazy" is just a perspective. Think what you like, but all of these scientific laws, how everyhting works, that is his doing. It is not lazy in my eyes… perhaps setting something up that runs prety much on its own is lazy to you, who cares, trivial point.

From: Yakman

and religion is only supported by science because you guys keep changing your story,

Some people do, yes. It makes some seince though, when new science comes out, it lets you get a little bit more insight to how god does his stuff. I have yet to see anything, other than human interpretations, be changed.

From: Yakman

"The earth isnt the center of the universe, its just one small corner of a galaxy of which there are many others"
"well the part which said 'God created the earth in the center of everything' is just metaphorical, its interesting how he tricks foolish humans like us, the lord works in mysterious ways :P"

sure, that is obviously bull, complelty trying to cover up a mistake. But look, there is nothing in my religious texts that sais anything about the earth being in the center. In fact, this realm of though origonated back in greek times, aristotle and his crew thought it up, not the bible.

Sure, any religions where you belive in what someone else interprets is just asking for stupid mistakes based on ignorance. Anything based on a belief i god, is not .

From: Yakman

"All living things in the world come from a common ancestor, and they slowly evolved from one another"
"Oh well the creation story is just a dumbed-down version of it, but its really the same thing in essence"

I happen to see these things in agreance. Or at least mostly. I don't see anything wrong with that either.

From: Yakman

science does not agree with religion, evolution is a blatant contradiction of creation, you simply cannot say they are a different way of telling the same story.

but I can, and they are. It is not blantant at all, expect to the people who belivive that God phyisically and in real 7 days us time build up an earth, with distinkt stages of population.

From: Yakman

so therefore God exists?

No -.-. I was not making any argument or proof showing his existance, please stop taking it like that.

Here, let me show you the patern. Someone sais that "x" disproves god. I say, no, "x" is not proof at all.

And then you somehow take me saying that.. as me acting like I have proof? crazy talk. I have said before, and again, and again now, that there is not any proof in either direction.

@jack, I have responded to your pm, sorry for angering you. And by "conlusive" i meant the fact that amino acids were made in 15 days.. is remarakable enough for me. My proof would be the results of that experiment. The rest is just my judgement, could be wrong.

They have successfully created organic compounds from those that they believe to have been on earth at the time. They applied electricity to a slightly acid but mineral rich water, and proteins started forming.

Living cells were never formed though.

But it shows that they might be formed randomly, as ratios and chances never are perfect. For example, if I flipped a coin 500 times, it very well could come out heads all 500 times, even though the probability of getting either is 50%.

The Evangelist minister in the link I posted a while back said that when God created the universe, he made some galaxies spin backwards to make believers of the big bang look stupid.

I thought that was funny. The only thing that I disagreed about in his video was the claim that life is fueled by oxygen, and that it couldn't exist without it. This is false. Nitrogen is the reason life is able to exist.

But it shows that they might be formed randomly, as ratios and chances never are perfect. For example, if I flipped a coin 500 times, it very well could come out heads all 500 times, even though the probability of getting either is 50%.

Really doesn't matter R0b0t. Scientists have had more than enough trials for funds to create life, it's obvious that it takes more than topnotch lab work to do so.

From: JackLKrawl
Really doesn't matter R0b0t. Scientists have had more than enough trials for funds to create life, it's obvious that it takes more than topnotch lab work to do so.

Yes, you are right. It takes plenty of time. Billions of years for the noise to make something useful.

From: R0b0t1
But it shows that they might be formed randomly, as ratios and chances never are perfect. For example, if I flipped a coin 500 times, it very well could come out heads all 500 times, even though the probability of getting either is 50%.

That's different, because people have flipped coins on both sides before, and so it is possible to toss a coin and end up with heads and tails.

However, scientists have tried to create living cells, but they can't. They tried to prove their theories by showing that it's possible to create life with a bunch of amino acids, but they failed.

From: Santa_Clause

However, scientists have tried to create living cells, but they can't. They tried to prove their theories by showing that it's possible to create life with a bunch of amino acids, but they failed.

Yep, unfortunatly the ability to witness this first hand is much more dificult. It is clear that it doesnt just fall together, like creating the amino acids.

I wouldn't say that it is imposible though, i think it highly probable, based on the results of the miller experiment, that with enough time and energy you would get some life.

But even acording to the scientist own little evolution timeline, it shows that the early life forms took the longest time to really.. well.. get going on into something better. So i don't think the scientist were surprised or disapointed their experiments didnt create more.

From: wiki
Sugars, lipids, and some of the building blocks for nucleic acids were also formed. Nucleic acids (DNA, RNA) themselves were not formed.

So yeah, i still find that absolutly facinating and amazing enough to really be taken back a little. Perhaps that is just me, but i find it amazing that out of nothing but basic material, the more complex building blocks just, naturaly start putting themselfs together.

Here is something I have noticed, that I think should be chaken up a little bit. Religion is not about , the bigining, at all really. In fact it has almost nothing to do with it. How the earth was created, when where and why, has absolutly nothing to do with our current lives (and or slavataion if you will). There is really no reason for it to be there, and no necisary requirement for it either. Honestly, with all the controversy it has caused, it may have been better to just leave any aludes to how it was created out of the bible (but hey, he is wizer then me, im just syaing that to make a point).

Look, i know humans have this big desiere to know what we all came from, and they feel like this is somehow very important, and i can understand that too. But it does not mean that suddnely relgion is really about that, just because it mentions it.

And what's even more noteworthy, is that discussing it really doesn't provide any proof for or against God.

Here, let me show you what I mean. For arguments purpose, assume that they let this miller sort of experiment go on, and eventually single celled life was created. Aplaud fame amazing woo hoo. But does this suddenly prove that man can make life, and that there is nothing special about god? Not at all. I wouldn't be surpised if an experiment eventualy does do this , and i would just be in the same scine of amazement at how god made the earth so perfectly just , work itself correctly like this.

It doesnt take god out of the picture at all. Scientist may claim that there is no need for religion, as they can explain the beggining much better now. But that's hardly the case. sure, in an athiest point of view, you can sleep a little better knowing that you know a little bit more about the begining, and put a little bit more of that desire to know about the begning away.( i would sleep better because of that too :) )

but in a religion perspective (or at least mine), this is not humans creating life at all. This is just them observising the natural way god set it up to work.

I hope i kinda got my point acros, i think i did a bad job at the end, let me know what i missed.

From: JackLKrawl

Another example would be the Holocaust. Did you know that they no longer teach it in England and parts of Europe because Muslims do not believe in it? Hundreds of thousands of people were murdered, and they just get waved goodbye in their history books because a dangerous population does not believe the Holocaust happened.

i should know, as i live in England,
you're overestimating how powerful the muslim lobby is here, its not as powerful as, say the jewish lobby in america,

we do learn about the holocaust, in fact a few months ago we had a holocaust survivor come to our school to tell us what it was like.

that seems exactly the sort of the you would be told in america, which was always very sympathetic to jewish people and israel

From: LordGregGreg

I have yet to find one instance of it.

Evolution, There you go,

one of the chief ideas of Gods is that they/he created everything,
evolution says that didn't happen,

ok ok, look at it this way,
if evolution agreed with god so much, how come so many christians are so critical against it?
since the start, the christian religion had lots of beef against evolution,
its very difficult for you LordGregGreg, as a christian to convince us that evolution works for you, it does not, it works very much against you.

From: LordGregGreg

"lazy" is just a perspective. Think what you like, but all of these scientific laws, how everyhting works, that is his doing. It is not lazy in my eyes… perhaps setting something up that runs prety much on its own is lazy to you, who cares, trivial point.

sure, just shrug it off, saying its trivial :P

From: LordGregGreg

Some people do, yes. It makes some seince though, when new science comes out, it lets you get a little bit more insight to how god does his stuff. I have yet to see anything, other than human interpretations, be changed.

so why is it that the church harshly put down Copernicus and Galilei,
you only change your interpretations when you have no hope, all other times, you view the speaker as a threat and kill them,

From: LordGregGreg

sure, that is obviously bull, complelty trying to cover up a mistake. But look, there is nothing in my religious texts that sais anything about the earth being in the center. In fact, this realm of though origonated back in greek times, aristotle and his crew thought it up, not the bible.

Sure, any religions where you belive in what someone else interprets is just asking for stupid mistakes based on ignorance. Anything based on a belief i god, is not .

again, if theres nothing in the religious texts about earth being the center of the universe, why was Copernicus treated so harshly for even suggesting it was the third rock from the sun?

From: LordGregGreg

I happen to see these things in agreance. Or at least mostly. I don't see anything wrong with that either.

creation says that monkeys and humans do not come from a common ancestor,
evolution says they do
therefore, they contradict each other, and they cant both be true

From: LordGregGreg

but I can, and they are. It is not blantant at all, expect to the people who belivive that God phyisically and in real 7 days us time build up an earth, with distinkt stages of population.

what if find sooo funny is how you pick and choose which parts of the bible are figurative, and which are not,
theres absolutely no guide to what is symbolic and what is real,
you guys are just picking and choosing, and there is no guarantee that you haven't made a mistake.

From: Yakman

ok ok, look at it this way,
if evolution agreed with god so much, how come so many christians are so critical against it?

I am not really sure. It isn't exactly how these people were taught you know? and humans seem to take these "origonation" issues pretty seriously, and it was probably pretty important to them {philisophically) when they understood the answer that they had. Must be hard to let go of that. specaily when you dont have to.
I was talking with jack on pms, so lumping me in with most chritians probably is not acurate, as you have noticed. Unfortunatly I am not sure why they find evolution so .. against them. Honeslty, if you take the facts of evolution, leave out the drawn conclusions people made about natural selection being the only determinign factor of what lives on, there is really nothing against god there at all. I supose it is all just a perspechttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2120/2052732965_348f3629d0_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2120/2052732965_348f3629d0_o.jpgtive. If my vision of god was him stricklty placing animals that he already had preconfigured out of his head, and populating the earth in a day, then yeah, evolution goes against that.

From: Yakman

since the start, the christian religion had lots of beef against evolution,
its very difficult for you LordGregGreg, as a christian to convince us that evolution works for you, it does not, it works very much against you.

Ok, well, then let me better define myself. I am a christian because I belive in god, jesus as a savior, and the bible. Shedding off any church stuff that is normally associated with chrisitans, i really do not see how it goes against me.

here, its pretty simple, almost everything about creation is in genesis, and its is pretty short. Given what I have already said.. and how I interpret it, do you see something working against me? I must have missed it.

From: Yakman

so why is it that the church harshly put down Copernicus and Galilei,
you only change your interpretations when you have no hope, all other times, you view the speaker as a threat and kill them,

Yes, i have noticed that. Prety sad and disgracefull if you ask me. Some people get so.. solid and stubornly brainwashed into their beliefs.. they fail to still see things. I have noticed that churches can have a very good foundation, with the bible, jesus, god, etc, but still, once a bunch of people get involved and start interpreting it, and then teaching their interpretation as true.. and then power and money gets involved, it become corupt very quickly.

Remeber, these times when galilei was in hot water, are around the same time when priest were accepting money to save people from hell, lol. I am going to go out on a limb here, and be a little judgmental, but that is rediculously corrupt.

From: Yakman
again, if theres nothing in the religious texts about earth being the center of the universe, why was Copernicus treated so harshly for even suggesting it was the third rock from the sun?

well, the church took upon the greek belifs and probably had some important people publish important stuff saying it was correct. something like "I , the pope under direct influceof god, know beyond dobt that the earth is the center of the entire universe!" and so therefore, although having nothing to do with christ or the bible, it sudenly become heracy to notice anything otherwize.

From: Yakman

creation says that monkeys and humans do not come from a common ancestor,
evolution says they do
therefore, they contradict each other, and they cant both be true

Indeed. Which is why I do not really accept all of the corelations that evolution draws. To let you see what i mean… my point of view is this. Evolution, fossils, etc, show a patern of improivment. In modern day we do see that some of the simple forms of natural selection do work (bird beaks for instance). But that is what I consider adaptation, which works based on natural selection. With the creation, it happened around the same way, but there was much more divine interaction, many advancements were jumped to or forced by a divine guidance.
so no, i do not think that monkeys adapted into humans. They have prety remarkable similarities, but i think, in a whole new step (or day) god created humans in his own image.

From: Yakman

what if find sooo funny is how you pick and choose which parts of the bible are figurative, and which are not,
theres absolutely no guide to what is symbolic and what is real,
you guys are just picking and choosing, and there is no guarantee that you haven't made a mistake.

Right. There is no garuntee that a mistake has not been made. That is critical to understand. Anything that I say is just mearly my human interpretation of moses' vision (genesis). Given me, with more or less knowledge and experiences, may say something diferent. It is crutial to note that a belif in god and the bible is not, and can not be tied to peoples interpretation of it.

as for picking and choosing, it really is not at random, although it may seem to. Visions have lots of simplifications, symbolism, and weird wacky stuff in them that is figurative (or maybe not, but that would just be crazy). Same with most profecies as well, just with a bit more acurate interpreation added in. (why? because a profecy comes from a vision ;) )
So that is pretty much the gist of it. Jesus also spoke in parabels allot, and used symbolism, so there is some figurative stuff in what he sais too.

For an absolute definative answer about something, im afraid that you wil just have to pray about it to know how to take it. My only point is, (in a religious perspective) that it is not at random.


Edit: So i dont double post. and on a completly diferent topic. This one being the whole, religoun people are sesitive stuff. Not saying that they are or are not, but get a load of this. Video game to kill religious leaders! Amazing, even athiesm you can take to a zealout point.
http://www.switched.com/2008/06/08/atheist-video-game-asks-players-to-slaughter-biblical-figures/

From: R0b0t1
Yes, you are right. It takes plenty of time. Billions of years for the noise to make something useful.

You're forgetting the claim that life takes very specific circumstances. As I see it, life wouldn't form a cell over billions of years.

@Yak
Eww, bad source.
o_O

It would as long as the necessary chemicals were present.

From: LordGregGreg
i do not think that monkeys adapted into humans. They have prety remarkable similarities, but i think, in a whole new step (or day) god created humans in his own image.

well they did,
and will all due respect, its not for you to decide who evolved into who,

also, modern day monkeys will never become humans, they are going on their own path,
there is a lot of this human-chauvinism these days, people think that all evolution is to get to the end result: humans, which is simply not the case.

monkeys and humans shared a common ancestor in the past, and one part of them eventually became humans, and another part eventually became monkeys.

Australopithecus was the species which was our common ancestor, there is a collection of fossils showing how they became humans, and another collection showing how they became monkeys,



also another thing, if God made humans in his own image, which humans did he make?
did he make black humans, white humans, asians, viking, mediterraneans, somalians, chinese, arabs, slavs, aryans,
I realise this puts you in a very difficult position, because whatever you answer, it will imply that all other races are lesser, and many people will cry racist over this.

From: LordGregGreg

Anything that I say is just mearly my human interpretation of moses' vision (genesis).

moses is never mentioned in Genesis,
he first appears in Exodus,
surely you've read your bible? (unless you were talking about another moses, in another book which just happens to be called genesis)


so LordGregGreg, respond, especially with the question about which race of humans God made.

i know i said i was out of this, but i was thinking: Why are there some atheists that hate Christians so much? Maybe this belongs on another topic… just wondering though.

No one has denied the existence of micro evolution, Yak.

From: Jackrawl
No one has denied the existence of micro evolution, Yak.

i never mentioned microevolution or macroevolution, they are exactly the same process, but it seems the seperating of those two is popular with creationists,
this is typical of creationists, any evolutionary change, even if its bacteria changing into snail, it described by them as "just microevolution"

if you really want to seperate them, i was talking about macroevolution, which was denied by LordGregGreg,
where Australopithecus becomes human, and Australopithecus becomes monkey

From: Yakman
well they did,
and will all due respect, its not for you to decide who evolved into who,

Well, it is possible that they did, I am really just trying to make the best conclusion I can with what I know. But I also think i have a little bit of validity too, so long as I see the same evidence the scientest did.

From: Yakman

also, modern day monkeys will never become humans, they are going on their own path,
there is a lot of this human-chauvinism these days, people think that all evolution is to get to the end result: humans, which is simply not the case.

monkeys and humans shared a common ancestor in the past, and one part of them eventually became humans, and another part eventually became monkeys.

Australopithecus was the species which was our common ancestor, there is a collection of fossils showing how they became humans, and another collection showing how they became monkeys,

Yes, I am familiar with this. It may very well be true as well. Genesis says he made man out of dirt. And unfortuantly, that can be taken to mean quite allot. I looked at the evolution stuff, and it does seem to make logical seince. I still am quite convinced that because of the speed and luck involved, it was definatly god driven. Not to mention that with natural selection, it says that the monkey-monkeys were better surviving then the human-monkeys, because the human monkeys died off, leading to more human-humans.

From: Yakman

also another thing, if God made humans in his own image, which humans did he make?
did he make black humans, white humans, asians, viking, mediterraneans, somalians, chinese, arabs, slavs, aryans,
I realise this puts you in a very difficult position, because whatever you answer, it will imply that all other races are lesser, and many people will cry racist over this.

well, i really don't care what people cry. Anyhow, yes, in his image, and I always took that to mean, shape, size, two arms, two legs, etc. As far as color.. that gets harder to tell, expecialy trying to use the bible as a source. Anyone who claimed to have seen god either saw him, unhuman, or saw him super white, probably just from the mass amounts of light flooding him. so that realy doesnt say anything about color at all. Jesus, when he was on earth the first time, was the child of mary. So his skin color would have been the same as hers. Whats that make him.. hmhm, kinda brown-tanish? im not sure what color the jews in jerusalem were, but you can find it.
Now, as for adam and eve, your guess is as good as mine. I think you have noticed by now that the bible has very little information about the beggining,and i think that is on purpose, as it reallyis not meant to answer these "origion" questions, although people want answers for them so bad and take it as such.

so, because of a lack on info there, and really nothing insightful when i prayed about it. So, this then forces me to turn to science and check out the information and conclusions they have there. Most sources i found seem to point to africa as the origion.


which would make the first humans black. But you are welcome to look more into that yourself, there is a ton of information about it. I sujest you dig down to the facts and make your own idea.

From: Yakman

moses is never mentioned in Genesis,
he first appears in Exodus,
surely you've read your bible?

Yeah, i know. He was the author of it, not, part of it. It may be more of mormon doctrine for the definative answer that he was the actual author, but I am pretty sure that most christians have relised this as well. And it is quite obvious that this was at least a vision of someone, and not written in real time watching it happen, lol.


as my last note, i think you pointed out something that I did not see earlier. A point where evolution seems to come in a more direct conflict with the bible. And that would be the fact that humans are in no way ultimate, and are really just part of a larger, infinately expanding chain of evolution. The bible seems prety hard against that, in the fact that humans are made in gods image, and therefore, are pretty ultimate. (note, that just because geneiss stops with mankind, doesnt mean creation is still occurring, and also note, that just because god gave man dominion over the earth, does not mean that they will not have it at some future time, these trains of logic are flawwed, the critical one is where he sais man was made in his image).

EDIT!!!! Thanks to dusk!
Before wiki mentioned how the farthest these experiments could go was to make amino acids. Well, this is not true. I have another experiment that can turn them into peptide chains if you add some copper.
http://www.tesisenxarxa.net/TESIS_UAB/AVAILABLE/TDX-0629107-154106//arg1de2.pdf
http://www.tesisenxarxa.net/TESIS_UAB/AVAILABLE/TDX-0629107-154106//arg2de2.pdf

The people of Africa are black supposedly because of the amount of sun there. As far as I know, we dont have the skin of the first humans, meaning they may not have been black, even though they werent white.

From: isjusme
The people of Africa are black supposedly because of the amount of sun there. As far as I know, we dont have the skin of the first humans, meaning they may not have been black, even though they werent white.

yes, thats very possible. what is the skin color of most monkeys?

From: LordGregGreg
yes, thats very possible. what is the skin color of most monkeys?

i has no idea… i dont examine monkeys that often

Pink.

Ah. hence the name monkey

From: Yakman
i never mentioned microevolution or macroevolution, they are exactly the same process, but it seems the seperating of those two is popular with creationists,
this is typical of creationists, any evolutionary change, even if its bacteria changing into snail, it described by them as "just microevolution"

if you really want to seperate them, i was talking about macroevolution, which was denied by LordGregGreg,
where Australopithecus becomes human, and Australopithecus becomes monkey

???
Typical of creationists? What you're saying is that if I went in and bred one horse, that I created a completely different species because it is, in some way, unique due to the collection of genes. Macroevolution is unproven and cannot be observed. Microevolution is proven and can be observed. Big difference. One isn't Science, which is, incidentally, Darwin's Evolution, which ultimately states that nonliving matter can turn matter, which disobeys Science as we know it.

Lets face it, you just tried to call Black to Chinese to White Evolution. It's not - politically, or scientifically.

Oh wait, I bet thats typical of creationists as well? Well, if it's so typical of creationists, I'm sure you'll have an answer that doesn't scream "We have no evidence" like "Typical of creationists" or "Crazy stuff happens over a long period of time." Give me proof, not words with no backing.

Okay, about the whole synthesis of life thing, creationist love saying, how did DNA and RNA form, and claim that there is no evidence for this being possible.

Well, this argument is starting to look shabby, since it has now been shown that DNA and RNA's pre-cursors, Uracil and Xanthine, can and have formed spontaneously outside Earth, and contamination was not possible.

http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandeventspggrp/imperialcollege/newssummary/news_13-6-2008-14-44-59?newsid=38534

In this very thread I think it has been said multiple times that nucleic acids have never been formed before.

And to Yak's original proof of God's Existence, quantum gravity, specifically Casual Dynamical Triangulations Quantum Gravity, allows for a self-assembling and self-organizing universe. The random interaction of individual motes of space-time determined by proven properties of each mote, can result in the ordered and seemingly "Designed" universe of today, without any need for an "Author".

If I want to be more traditional, and directly respond to that argument, the simple matter of fact is that we can't start with observed experience, (Everything has a cause outside of itself) and apply that to the realm of quantum effects, classical logic, once thought to be universal and a "Proof" of God does not even work on this level either. On the level that the big bang occurred on cause and effect break down, particles can spin forwards and backwards at the same TIME. Also, quantum instabilities can result in the singularity forming that we call the big bang, and the formation of the vacuum of space-time is allowed for above.

There is no need for an "Author" or "Creator" or "Designer" anymore.

Also, macro-evolution, has been observed, arguably, in bacteria. This article has shown how micro-evolution, which no one tries to even deny any more, has been physically shown to result in the evolution of a macro trait, the ability of e-coli to metabolize citrate. Now don't even try to dismiss this as only micro-evolution, this is macro-evolution. Furthermore, if you read the article closely it explains how this can not possible be micro evolution.

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.htmlhttp://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html

One final thing that creationist never seem to get. There are two flaws with their whole "Attack Science, Prove God" philosophy.

To say something is un-explained is not to say it is un-explainable.

To disprove science is never to prove God.

I look forward to your responses.

I would just like to interject with my view:

And then we can reply:

Religion:

The blind belief with unfounded proof that there exists a magical "higher being" who looks over all 6 billion of us simultaneously because one book says so, and if that one book says so, then it must be true, even though there is no solid proof that this book is actually true, and there exists no other book to back it's "evidence" up. Us atheists are then supposed to believe that you are infact correct, and we are wrong because you all:

• Do not contradict each other when talking about religion, God, heaven etc etc.
• Can show us solid evidence that you are correct and we are wrong.
• Are not conducting your lives according to the contents of one book.

We are then supposed to believe that our "magical being friend" who loves us unconditionally (even if we decide to fuck him over by not believing in him) created the world in 7 days… and then the rest of the planets magically appeared after that. We are then also supposed to believe that Mary was infact impregnated by a spirit (with his spirit sperm), defying the laws of how "The magical being" created her in the first place, and that she did not instead have an affair with someone else who got her pregnant and dumped her on Joseph, where she was then forced to make up a magical story to tell the gullible guy, who believed her because he was whipped by a woman.

Don't take it personally.

I won't. I'm atheist, but I think I will take god's side in this argument.
And this argument goes around and around. "Show me proof god exists". "Show me proof he doesn't"

And who said God had to be Christian?

In my opinion, DNA, the Cambrian Explosion and the effortless beauty of life itself supports the belief in god. Maybe not someone who watches over us, and maybe not the one in the bible.
God does not have to "love you unconditionally". He did not have to have a son who died for our sins.

Its true, that even the most devout atheists cry out for god on their deathbeds.

From: Jackrawl
What you're saying is that if I went in and bred one horse, that I created a completely different species because it is, in some way, unique due to the collection of genes.

thats not what i said at all,

you clearly have very little understanding of how evolution works,
there will be a negligible change after just one breeding, evolution takes millions of years,

From: Jackrawl

One isn't Science, which is, incidentally, Darwin's Evolution, which ultimately states that nonliving matter can turn matter, which disobeys Science as we know it.

this is some kind of weird misspelling, i think you're talking about the second law of thermodynamics,
but I'm not completely sure, due to the terrible quality of your english, so ill wait for you to correct yourself, and then debate further,

From: Jackrawl

Lets face it, you just tried to call Black to Chinese to White Evolution. It's not - politically, or scientifically.

oh my god! oh my god! oh my god! oh my god!
this dude just said grandmother was black!, well obviously thats not true, I am white and i am much better then those dirty niggers,
i must protect my skin color by denying what this atheist says, it simply cannot be true because that would mean black people were better then me!!

[/SARCASM][/SARCASM][/SARCASM]

bloody american, you make me sick,

humanity started in Africa, the first humans were black, we are all descended from black people,

politics is not equal to science,
you might have your own tribalism and stereotypes, but it doesn't change the facts,

From: Jackrawl
Macroevolution is unproven and cannot be observed. Microevolution is proven and can be observed. Big difference.

From: Jackrawl
Give me proof, not words with no backing.

you appear to have not thread this entire thread,
which is alright i guess, it is a long thread,

we were discussing proof to evolution, and Jason2gs asked for proof, i gave him proof and he never mentioned evolution again, neither macro- nor micro-evolution

i have taken the liberty of copy/pasting that post for you here,

***** copy/pasting starts here *****

ok i will, lets start with that creature which has feathers, and also has teeth,
its a transitional species between dinosaurs and birds,
modern day birds dont have teeth, they have beaks.

it has the name Archaeopteryx
about 10 complete body fossils of it have been discovered, and large numbers of parts of its body,

(you might be wondering, "how do they know that this tooth belonged to that bird", well the answer is that the scientists that study this know to look very carefully at all the detail, more often then not, a biologists can tell the species just by looking at a tooth, other things are easier, like feathers are very likely to have a pattern in species)

a picture of one is here

note: although you cant see it in the picture, that bird defiantly has teeth.
paleontologists don't look at pictures like we just did, they look at fossils with magnifying glasses, and they defiantly saw teeth

you cant possibly say all 30 or so fossils found are fake, not when they were found by many different people in many different places.
these clearly show a transition between flying dinosaurs and birds.

an artists impression is here
thats only an artists impression, fossils have no way of telling us what colour its wings were or anything, but we can make educated guesses.






now fossils are rare things, less then 1% of dead animals are preserved like this, we are lucky to have as many fossils as we do,
we dont have many complete fossil records of one specie turning into another, like we have archaeopteryx, but we dont have a fossil of the stage after, as far as i know

one complete fossil record we have is the horse, which is my second piece of evidence for today,
we have a complete record showing how to horse went from a small dog-like creature with 5 toes in each leg, to the modern day horse we see today,

a graphical illustration of these finding is found here

if you want to check all this fossils individually, i can offer you their separate wikipedia pages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyracotherium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesohippus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parahippus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merychippus

sorry for the link spamming, i dont have much to say about these fossils except they are one of the complete fossil records we have,
if you're ever in London, you can have a look at them for yourself in London's Natural History Museum


and sorry to bring this argument away from God, but in my defense, it was Jason2gs who brought up evolution,

and to my atheist fellows, a good page to read up on transitional fossils is here

***** copy/pasting ends here *****

From: bobng
And this argument goes around and around. "Show me proof god exists". "Show me proof he doesn't"

let me show you this analogy,
I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, i wonderful god which created our world, he resembles spaghetti and meatballs, and touches us in our hearts with his noodly appendage,

show me proof the FSM doesnt exist!


obviously no-one believes this ridiculous religion,
but i fail to see any differences between this religion and the world's major religions, its only because there are massive amounts of people who believe in them, otherwise they would fail,

theres a saying iv heard which is quite good,
"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity, when many people suffer from a delusion, its called a religion"

The statement still stands. Show me proof that god does not exist. Show me proof he does.
Referencing a giant flying pasta-based life-form does not defeat the impossible question.

A response to the question: Are intelligent people less likely to believe in God:

The only people who believe in god are the ones who are afraid to grow up and realize for themselves that god and santa clause are the same guy. They are planted in the imagination to make children behave. The devil is the same as the boogie man in your closet. It's fear. Anyway, people who claim to believe in god, can't even agree on what god is. Each have their own pretend version of him. Everytime one refutes another claim about god, suddenly "god" means something else. God is merely a god of the gaps. The more truth that is revealed, the less room there is for god to play a role in reality. If you follow that trend further you notice that the truth is that there is no god. As The more scientifically educated people have had to reduce their god to fit in between their knowledge of their experience in the universe. Einstein didn't believe in a god, but he simply referred to the mysteries of nature as god. Some scientists say god and mean only the natural forces of nature. The less educated people don't have as many conflicts because they have much larger holes in their knowledge, like creationists. Some people have conversations with god inside their heads. People are crazy, even some of the smart ones.

^ Put very nicely.

The thing is you die one day! Do you really want to take that chance?

^ Now that is someone who is scared.

To me, the main reason someone believes in God is fear / because they are alone / depression

From: Starblaster100

To me, the main reason someone believes in God is fear / because they are alone / depression

yes i agree,
in all these religions and pseudosciences, theres always some kind of hand to hold, a comforting hug or a safe house,

some people do not seem to realise that X is comforting does not imply X is true.


now for bobng,

From: bobng
The statement still stands. Show me proof that god does not exist. Show me proof he does.
Referencing a giant flying pasta-based life-form does not defeat the impossible question.

that question is quite impossible, how can you prove something which has no effects on anything,
i admit the question is impossible,

the way am attacking your question is by saying it doesnt get an answer,
not all questions deserve answers,

"Why are unicorn horns hollow?"

^^ theres one,
just cause a question is well-formed in english, does make it need an answer,



I'm going to take my example of the justice system in most western countries,
"Innocent until proven guilty"

in this case, the crime is murder,

There was no proof against murder, he had no ably, he did not have an empty criminal record,

There is also no proof for murder, there was no motive, there was no murder weapon found,

most juries would hold the defendant innocent, for lack of evidence,
the mantra "Innocent until proven guilty" works here,



lets say the crime wasn't "Murder", but it was "Existence"

theres no proof for it, theres no proof against it,
the defendant is innocent of existing,


you could change some words to make the mantra
"Not-existing until proven to exist"

the FSM is "Not-existing until proven to exist"
the Invisible Pink Unicorn is "Not-existing until proven to exist"

and god is "Not-existing until proven to exist"

therefore your question, "Show me proof that god does not exist. Show me proof he does.", does not help your case at all,

Then if the question cannot be answered, how can you be so convinced that you are infact right?

Seems like a loose-loose situation to me. If he exists and you don't believe in him, and you squander your life on earth thinking heaven/hell does not exist, then you go to hell. If he does not exist, the only an eternity of nothingness awaits us.

From: bobng
Then if the question cannot be answered, how can you be so convinced that you are infact right?

because of what i just said,
not existing until proven to exist,

therefore at the moment, not existing

From: bobng
If he exists and you don't believe in him, and you squander your life on earth thinking heaven/hell does not exist, then you go to hell. If he does not exist, the only an eternity of nothingness awaits us.

you make it sound like its a 50/50 chance of him existing or not,
if that were the case, your statement now would have some grounding,

but when talking about god, you can also talk about the probability of it existing,

with the amount of evidence available, i would say the probability of god existing is about 3% or so,

so that statement about a lose-lose situation has very little grounding,

No, with your one sided view the probability of god existing for you is about 3%. I doubt Mother Terrasia would say that.
Have you considered faith? Perhaps if there is a god, he would not want you ever to know that he existed, but to have faith in him. If he was proved to exist, then we would not believe in him, but know he is there, and those are two completely different ideas.

God didn't make us, we made him.

From: bobng
No, with your one sided view the probability of god existing for you is about 3%. I doubt Mother Terrasia would say that.
Have you considered faith? Perhaps if there is a god, he would not want you ever to know that he existed, but to have faith in him. If he was proved to exist, then we would not believe in him, but know he is there, and those are two completely different ideas.

perhaps i am God. I doubt you're going to start worshiping me. So why do you worship someone that you were told by someone that was someone that was told by someone that was told by someone…..that there was this guy that created us.

one thing ive been thinking. if someone today came out and started proclaiming that they were God's daughter. I seriously doubt that she would be taken seriously. If she went to the pope and started telling him that she was God's daughter, i doubt even he would believe her. Now that doesnt seem like the kind of thing God would want his "followers" to do, ignore his only daughter.

Many people may think that they are good people and are going to go to heaven, but if you really think about it, how good of a person are you, why should "God" allow you into heaven.

i know my little spiel here was all over the place and the little pieces were unrelated, but try to get past that and understand what im saying.

If he was gods daughter then she would prove it somehow. Just by saying it does not make it true.
By the same rule, you could argue that god does not exist. However, its about what YOU believe. Forcing your views onto someone else, and trying to 'convert' them is wrong. If they feel comforted by the idea of a god, then it would be an evil thing to do to tell them he does not exist.
But hey. If there is no heaven or hell, then why not, right?

Go kill someone. Right now. Go on, do it. Whats wrong with it? Your not going to heaven/hell? Whats stopping you? Society? Their principles are based upon the commandments of someone who does not exist, so have no meaning to you right?

From: bobng
Go kill someone. Right now. Go on, do it. Whats wrong with it? Your not going to heaven/hell? Whats stopping you? Society? Their principles are based upon the commandments of someone who does not exist, so have no meaning to you right?

so the only reason you dont kill people is because you're scared of death?
and not because you're a nice person…




religion does not give rise to morals and we should really get rid of that horrible misconception,
I've heard a lot of people saying that without religion, there would be no morals, they point to some holy books as examples, like the ten commandments
in holy books, there is both good and bad, if you want good, you can find it, if you want bad, you can find it.
today, no-one seriously takes the idea that you should stone a woman to death if she i not a virgin at marriage, or that you cannot work on the sabbath,

how lets say someone is reading the bible for the first time, and they come across a passage which tells them to do bad things, how do they know not to follow it?
the answer is that they already have morals which they use to separate the good from the bad in that book.

with the notable exception with the Afghan Taliban and the American Christan equivalent, we all follow a similar set of morals, regardless of religion, we dont cause needless suffering, we protect free speech even if we dont like what is being said, we pay taxes, we dont cheat, we dont kill, we dont commit incest, we dont do things to others that we wouldnt like done to ourselves,
some of these rules can be found in holy books, but alongside them are rules which certainly no decent person would follow, and these holy books do not supply any guidelines to tell between the good rules and the bad rules.

therefore, our morals do not come from holy books, them come from somewhere else,


*** end copy/pasting ***

since we dont all read the entire thread now do we :)

All our morals and fundamental laws come from the Christian teachings.

What i am saying is why not steal? Who says its wrong? You won't go to hell. The killing example was a bit extreme, i admit.

you dont steal because you'll break the law, and if you break the law you go to jail, and the law(at least USA's, afaik) was made by people who believed in God.thats pretty much it, going to jail would suck. None of my choices are made with "God" in mind.

From: bobng
All our morals and fundamental laws come from the Christian teachings.

What i am saying is why not steal? Who says its wrong? You won't go to hell. The killing example was a bit extreme, i admit.

You really need hell for that? How about not getting that cookie. Going to the principals office. Going to jail. Or how about just the basic rationalization of 'how would you like it if someone did that to you?'? I've never been to church or read a bible (or other equivalents) but somehow I turned out alright.

From: Hurgymcgurgygurg
Okay, about the whole synthesis of life thing, creationist love saying, how did DNA and RNA form, and claim that there is no evidence for this being possible.

Not really… Like I have said, even if it can be found that this stuff aranges itself this way, all over the universe, it really doesn't mean anything disproving God. I do appreciate bringing this up though.

From: Hurgymcgurgygurg

And to Yak's original proof of God's Existence, quantum gravity, specifically Casual Dynamical Triangulations Quantum Gravity, allows for a self-assembling and self-organizing universe. The random interaction of individual motes of space-time determined by proven properties of each mote, can result in the ordered and seemingly "Designed" universe of today, without any need for an "Author".

If I want to be more traditional, and directly respond to that argument, the simple matter of fact is that we can't start with observed experience, (Everything has a cause outside of itself) and apply that to the realm of quantum effects, classical logic, once thought to be universal and a "Proof" of God does not even work on this level either. On the level that the big bang occurred on cause and effect break down, particles can spin forwards and backwards at the same TIME. Also, quantum instabilities can result in the singularity forming that we call the big bang, and the formation of the vacuum of space-time is allowed for above.

Yes! Because it is quite obvious that this whole origon thinking does work for either the creationist or the athiest. I am not sure if quantumatics explains it either, but it's getting closer to the right type of thinking.

From: Hurgymcgurgygurg

There is no need for an "Author" or "Creator" or "Designer" anymore.

Wo.. wait? When I read and learn more about how all of this works, I can not help to see how it REQUIRES a designer even more! lol. I supose it is a perspective thing. You see how things just. work, and say because they work by themselfs, then there is no need for a designer. I see how things just work, and can't see anyway possible that it all works so perfectly without a creator.

From: Hurgymcgurgygurg

Furthermore, if you read the article closely it explains how this can not possible be micro evolution.

Great find! I have always hoped something like this would finaly be observable in a laboratory. As I have said before, I don't think this disproves god at all, I just find it awesome that a mutation can happen that would cause such a big improvement :)

From: Hurgymcgurgygurg

One final thing that creationist never seem to get. There are two flaws with their whole "Attack Science, Prove God" philosophy.

To say something is un-explained is not to say it is un-explainable.

To disprove science is never to prove God.

I look forward to your responses.

Yep, exactly. Works both ways too. To prove science isn't to disprove God either. (well, i supose it might be to some close minded brainwashed individuals… >.> in which case I hope it does so they can get a better testimony for themselfs)

From: bobng
Athiesm doesnt make sence

That was just stupid. Have you been reading this debate? It is very obvious that I makes plenty of sence.

From: yakman
oh my god! oh my god! oh my god! oh my god!
this dude just said grandmother was black!, well obviously thats not true, I am white and i am much better then those dirty niggers,
i must protect my skin color by denying what this atheist says, it simply cannot be true because that would mean black people were better then me!!

Perfect! lol. I completely agree with the point you made here.

From: bobng

In my opinion, DNA, the Cambrian Explosion and the effortless beauty of life itself supports the belief in god.

:) mhmm

From: bobng
Its true, that even the most devout atheists cry out for god on their deathbeds.

Yeah, but thats a crappy belief you have right there, come from the whole fear factor, which doesnt really mean anything. I won't be crying out for god on my death bed, ill be crying out for my wife.

From: Starblaster&Yakman
To me, the main reason someone believes in God is fear / because they are alone / depression

Yes, and to some that is the reason. Just make sure you don't steriotype people like me into this group. Believing out of fear or depresion isnt beliving at all, thats just a self fufilling profecy, and has almost nothing to do with god.

From: yakman
religion does not give rise to morals

Right! Morals come from someplace else. I don't belive they come from society either. To me, they are something I have just had, and although mine are similar to the ones in my religion, I had them long before I read about them, and they are very diferent from societies. Sure, most religious books do give the low down on a simple utilitarian moral standpoint, but even then ten commandments, if you read, should not of needed to be written. It was just that moses' peoplewere acting like idiots, and some of them lost their moral standpoint so much that they needed a little reminder. (and a nice walk through the desert too, lol)

From: DanCardin
None of my choices are made with "God" in mind.

I am glad the law picks up the slack then , lol. the reason I don't steal isnt because I fear punishment, its because I don't want people to steal from me, so i dont steal from them. It follows what I feel is just.

From: Cerium
Regurgiated crap with no proof, no responce, and no reason

Way to not add to the conversation at all, or even read what is being said and discussed, you just blurt out a little sentance that honestly, doesnt mean anything if you read whats going on. Try to have some intelligence next time, and participate.

I think ill close with a more organised explanation of morals. It is true, you do NOT need religion to have morals. They are pretty much part of you seince birth. Granted, society can twist them a whole lot, but they all come from one common thing. Humans wan't to survive, creation wise, evolution wise, we are still meant to live and we have a drive to live. It is a simple logic that most people understand, "If I don't want people to hurt me, then I should not hurt other people, because they are like me". You can expand that into a non-religious based moral set , Utilitarianism. Religion only mentions morals because it has to, as a way to demonstrate wrong things, and make it simpler to understand why god is chastising selfish, or "bad" people. I think people get confused by where these morals origonate, because religion has become so popular, that it is being taught to kids in the wrong way. They are taught to not steal so they don't go to hell, or because God said not to. Bad idea if you ask me, but I will hold my judgement.

Almost all western religion is based on fear. I do not wish to believe something which forces me to do things because 'or else…'.

From: R0b0t1
Almost all western religion is based on fear.

No, mine does not.

From: R0b0t1
I do not wish to believe something which forces me to do things because 'or else…'.

ofcoourse not. But you must also realise the "or else" is enevitable. Their are consequences for everything you do. Religious or not, if you kill someone, your life is about to be forced under control.

Why do you supposedly do good things? To get that good feeling? Why do you like that good feeling? Because it means you're not going to hell.

From: R0b0t1
Why do you supposedly do good things? To get that good feeling? Why do you like that good feeling? Because it means you're not going to hell.

Or because he enjoys the satisfaction of doing good things, like a doctor enjoys the satisfaction of saving lives. Religion only sets a moral base, and it's up to its followers to decide how they act.

I was born into a christian family, however I sure as hell don't believe in the church. I do beleive there is something more to life than what science says there is. Wether you wish to call it God or whatever. I do not fear death or what comes after, nor do I feel alone. But I believe this topic will never end in the world, and people are just gonna believe what they want to believe. :p

yakd00d, what do you believe in?

edit: 1. When God gave Abraham the commandments, do you think the Jews and Bible are lying?

God does not exist.

I do believe the human mind is much more powerful than we think it is. . .There's still more abilities that we've yet to uncover in my opinion. And no, not flying or stupid shit like that. . .

From: crossback7
God does not exist.

Good argument?

And yeah, I am sure you are right about the mind. But i wouldn't limit it only to the mind either. Forgive the pun, but that seems closed minded ;P

God does not exist.

yeh, secksay argument, but i must start, why dont you believe God exists?

I have my reasons, most of them stated in the previous pages. No need to repeat them. . .

From: crossback7
I have my reasons, most of them stated in the previous pages. No need to repeat them. . .

fair enough to be sure. But since this argument really inst a voting thing, your statement doesn't really add to the conversation.

Maybe quote someone that you agree with and add to it.

Quote:
"The only people who believe in god are the ones who are afraid to grow up and realize for themselves that god and santa clause are the same guy. They are planted in the imagination to make children behave. The devil is the same as the boogie man in your closet. It's fear. Anyway, people who claim to believe in god, can't even agree on what god is. Each have their own pretend version of him. Everytime one refutes another claim about god, suddenly "god" means something else. God is merely a god of the gaps. The more truth that is revealed, the less room there is for god to play a role in reality. If you follow that trend further you notice that the truth is that there is no god. As The more scientifically educated people have had to reduce their god to fit in between their knowledge of their experience in the universe. Einstein didn't believe in a god, but he simply referred to the mysteries of nature as god. Some scientists say god and mean only the natural forces of nature. The less educated people don't have as many conflicts because they have much larger holes in their knowledge, like creationists. Some people have conversations with god inside their heads. People are crazy, even some of the smart ones."


This.

Plus, a few other extremely illogical things "God" did in his plan. Such, as starting his conversion in the Middle East. At the time, yes, it was geographically in the center of the civilized world. But why not start it in a place that is much more densely populated, i.e. China? That would have brought about more converts, etc.

Oh wow is this thing still going. LordGregGreg is still in the middle of it too. Debating, should I get involved again… ahhh nah its a waste of time lol. The only ones who are logical and intelligent enough to actually change their minds if a good argument came their way are also too intelligent to find one in this thread. We have so many people come and just say GOD DOES [NOT] EXIST!!! AHHH!!! and then leave never to return. If there is a good argument though, LordGregGreg, I insist taht you let me know so that I can return to argue for both sides :D.

So, yeah. . .There are my reasons, lordgreggreg.

Well, asside from a few insults at god belivers, this is actualy a decent argument.

From: crossback7
Quote:
"The only people who believe in god are the ones who are afraid to grow up and realize for themselves that god and santa clause are the same guy. They are planted in the imagination to make children behave. The devil is the same as the boogie man in your closet. It's fear.

This argument is no good. it is sterityping god belivers as fearfull, and I can assure you that is not always the case. I was not raised to belive in god, i realized that he existed on my own, personally, even when i really didnt eve want him too. And i promise you i was not subconciously looking for a santa clause or answer to unknown stuff.

From: crossback7
Anyway, people who claim to believe in god, can't even agree on what god is. Each have their own pretend version of him. Everytime one refutes another claim about god, suddenly "god" means something else. God is merely a god of the gaps. The more truth that is revealed, the less room there is for god to play a role in reality.

Yes… I defanitly see what you are talking about here. Lots of people just make god into what they want him to be. Even the same gernal religion has tons of important variances. The bible can be interpreted in many diferent ways, and it really takes some good insight to do it right. Not to mention that most people try to apply what they know about religion to their lives. This in turn makes them jump to conclusions about things. They often make mistake and fill in gaps with a mysteroios god, when really , its a not so mysterious god. Like i said before, science really does not ever contracdict god. Only to people who jump to these conclusions does it cause a problem, (and im glad it does, they need to check themselfs)

From: crossback7
If you follow that trend further you notice that the truth is that there is no god.

No, see, noiw it is you who is jumping to conclusions. I supose the key point here is that truth revelaled does NOT contradict god (read above)

From: crossback7
As The more scientifically educated people have had to reduce their god to fit in between their knowledge of their experience in the universe.

No! He doesnt fit between, lol. He is IN it. He is the organiser who creates what we discover to be truths.

From: crossback7
Einstein didn't believe in a god, but he simply referred to the mysteries of nature as god.

I dont know enough about einstein, thought he was religious? oh well, either way, even the stuff he figured out, was still god. It just became more understood and explained.

From: crossback7
The less educated people don't have as many conflicts because they have much larger holes in their knowledge, like creationists.

Well , like i mentioned, that just leaves more room for them to jump to false conclusions.

From: crossback7

This.
Plus, a few other extremely illogical things "God" did in his plan. Such, as starting his conversion in the Middle East. At the time, yes, it was geographically in the center of the civilized world. But why not start it in a place that is much more densely populated, i.e. China? That would have brought about more converts, etc.

Well, if your mormon, you also belive that he started over in america as well. Regardless, their is a main logic flaw in your argument. You seem to think that it is in gods best interest to convert people directly, like starting his church right next to them or something, when obviously, this is not his plan.

Anyhow, thanks for a much better argument. I didnt read that quote you put, i must have missed it. Good stuff though.

—edit

From: Dusk412
Oh wow is this thing still going. LordGregGreg is still in the middle of it too. Debating, should I get involved again… ahhh nah its a waste of time lol. The only ones who are logical and intelligent enough to actually change their minds if a good argument came their way are also too intelligent to find one in this thread. We have so many people come and just say GOD DOES [NOT] EXIST!!! AHHH!!! and then leave never to return. If there is a good argument though, LordGregGreg, I insist taht you let me know so that I can return to argue for both sides :D.

lol, alright, ill try to clue you in. I liked the quote that he put though, i must have missed it earlier.

From: isjusme
There were still life forms, but how did they get life? what "sparked" it? In the beginning of the big bang there was no life, so where did it come from?

The clash of the required elements and substances to make chains of
molecules, in a young and in an ecological zone planet athmosfere with water, where the heat and the moisture would make the job.

And why am I quoting a 11 pages old post? Because it's about randomness, and I need sleep.

There's a thought,and I like it very much, because it uses only logical thinking:
"How can God have given you choices, if he alredy knows in his all mighty what you are going to do?"
-Here's a vid, it uses only logic to argue some dogmatic concepts we have from god.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QNgWwV_-wVs

First off, im not watching a video unless you yourself made it. I don't like regurgitated mterial because it lets you sit back and not even have to think. If you like that vedieo, watchit, and then tell us the key points that you agree with.

From: DaimosDenamos
The clash of the required elements and substances to make chains of
molecules, in a young and in an ecological zone planet athmosfere with water, where the heat and the moisture would make the job.

Right! Amazing isnt it? And even more amazing that this wasn't a one time happeneing thing. He made this work by weaving it into the organisation of the universe, and I bet if we put things like they were way back in the day, the would do the same thing!

From: iDontknow

"How can God have given you choices, if he already knows in his all mighty what you are going to do?"

I have a quote to respond back to that.

From: iDontKnow
Satan can not control you and God will not control you

It is absolutely critical that people can have free agency. God will never force someone to do right.

From: LordGregGreg
First off, im not watching a video unless you yourself made it. I don't like regurgitated mterial because it lets you sit back and not even have to think. If you like that vedieo, watchit, and then tell us the key points that you agree with.

I watched it before posting it, and it talks about this exact point:

From: DaimosDenamos

"How can God have given you choices, if he already knows in his all mighty what you are going to do?"

Your answer to this question was:

From: LordGregGreg
Satan can not control you and God will not control you

Yes, I do know what free will is. However, how let's take some points, the basic:
God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. Now, back to the omniscient. Being so, he knows everything. If he knows everything, he knows about everything and everyone in the past, present and future and if he knows the future, he alredy knows if you'll ever ask his piety and forgiveness. By such, he alredy knows when you're born where you'll be sent when you die.

See? He doesn't need to control you, he alredy knows what to do when you die. This also goes against the idea that god is just and fair, because by common sense, creating someone just to send this person to hell ins't kind of fair.

But this isn't a proof against god's existance as there are in present no proofs against god's existance or in favor of. It's just a logical problem, as said in the video. In fact, there is still a division today between the belief of predestination or free will.

From: DaimosDenamos

God … knows everything. If he knows everything, he knows about everything and everyone in the past, present and future and if he knows the future, he alredy knows if you'll ever ask his piety and forgiveness. By such, he alredy knows when you're born where you'll be sent when you die.

Very nice!

Yes, this is a very interesting point. It sure doesnt make much sence. Thers got to be some point we are misinterpreetting. I happen to see the logic faculty like you do, unfortunatly, I know God exists, so this gives me an internal conflict XD.

We have to be getting something wrong, im not sure..
To refine this point more, it comes down to a conflict between, bascially "destiny" and "free agency".
It really looks like they both can't exist. If you are destined to do something… then how can you have a choice?

I don't know the answer to this one yet, ill let you know.

Edit: You may ask, does the bible have destiny? Yes. There are lots of prefecies, thus the events fortold are destined to happen. People are destined to become profets, etc etc.

From: DaimosDenamos
The clash of the required elements and substances to make chains of
molecules, in a young and in an ecological zone planet athmosfere with water, where the heat and the moisture would make the job.

And why am I quoting a 11 pages old post? Because it's about randomness, and I need sleep.

There's a thought,and I like it very much, because it uses only logical thinking:
"How can God have given you choices, if he alredy knows in his all mighty what you are going to do?"
-Here's a vid, it uses only logic to argue some dogmatic concepts we have from god.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QNgWwV_-wVs

He was asking what was before the whole "big bang" theory. Not how life started on earth..

Lordgreggreg, I didn't post the first section of my post up there ^^^. You told me to quote someone who I agreed with, and that was from a previous post. I do not agree with all of it, though it does make some good points, as you could see.

I did, however, post about God's overall strategy being flawed. And that's why I'm not Mormon. It simply wouldn't make sense, and why wouldn't God want to convert people more directly.

Even if he did want to do it indirectly, he would've been better off starting in China. They were a much more advanced civilization. They would've been better equipped to spread his message.

I also have another issue. God is perfect, no? And we are created in God's image, yes?

Then explain to me how birth defects work into this. I know some are caused by a mother drinking, doing drugs, etc, as well as various other factors. But some aren't. Explain those to me, i.e. club foot, autism, harlequin's disease.

And don't try feeding me that Adam and Eve started it by original sin. That's bull. There's absolutely no logic or anything about it. I'd be just as likely to believe someone who tried to convince me that magic was real as I would be to believe that God started the world with Adam and Eve if I knew nothing of either already.

From: LordGregGreg
Very nice!

Yes, this is a very interesting point. It sure doesnt make much sence. Thers got to be some point we are misinterpreetting. I happen to see the logic faculty like you do, unfortunatly, I know God exists, so this gives me an internal conflict XD.

We have to be getting something wrong, im not sure..
To refine this point more, it comes down to a conflict between, bascially "destiny" and "free agency".
It really looks like they both can't exist. If you are destined to do something… then how can you have a choice?

I don't know the answer to this one yet, ill let you know.

Edit: You may ask, does the bible have destiny? Yes. There are lots of prefecies, thus the events fortold are destined to happen. People are destined to become profets, etc etc.

I have an answer.

We can assume that God is a psychic…if that's what you want to call him. Just because someone is psychic, it doesn't mean that they control our life. Look at it this way, from the free-will and destiny side of things, God is just like any normal human psychic. He knows things, but he doesn't interfere at all. I really hope that's a good enough answer.

I could also say, that birth defects are detected before a baby is born. What's the point of letting the baby be born, if it is autistic? Pretty much all autistic people live the same life, depending on others to feed them, transport them, cloth them, and the rest of it all. Why then, let it be born, if its lifestyle can be predicted from the time that the tests are taken?

From: crossback7

I did, however, post about God's overall strategy being flawed. And that's why I'm not Mormon. It simply wouldn't make sense, and why wouldn't God want to convert people more directly.

The point of god's religion isn't to convert people to it. He is not looking for the money or the popularity. God want's us on earth to get us back to him. Jesus's birth and resurection was planned long long before he was born, arguably before the earth was created. Sure, god wants people to come back to him, but its to complicated to say that he should have started in a diferent location, I can't even begin to see the consequences. You also have to rember, God pretty much stays out of things, (other than keeping his covenants), and he lets men have their free agency to do whatever they want. He could, if he wanted, imidatly converty everyone and drag them up into heaven, but that's not the point. People have to struggle and figure out this stuff for themselvs. All I am trying to show.. is that converting people.. is not soomething God is going to force.

From: crossback7

Even if he did want to do it indirectly, he would've been better off starting in China. They were a much more advanced civilization. They would've been better equipped to spread his message.

but maybe less likely to even recive it? less likly to crucify him? who knows.

From: crossback7

I also have another issue. God is perfect, no? And we are created in God's image, yes?

Then explain to me how birth defects work into this.

Well, as with all of this, there really inst any good solid answer to it religious wise, so all of this is just how i kinda make it make logic in my mind. If you have a better answer, ill be happy to take it.

But first off.. Man was never suposed to be perfect, at least on earth. No one here has a perfect body, we were just made in the immage of God. I take that to mean that god is bi-pedal etc. (could be mis interpreted) but no where does it say that we are suposed to have perfect bodies. In fact, theres some good evidence to say we dont. I don't have my quotes on me, but something about during the resurection, we will get a perfect body.

From: LordGregGreg
The point of god's religion isn't to convert people to it. He is not looking for the money or the popularity. God want's us on earth to get us back to him. Jesus's birth and resurection was planned long long before he was born, arguably before the earth was created. Sure, god wants people to come back to him, but its to complicated to say that he should have started in a diferent location, I can't even begin to see the consequences. You also have to rember, God pretty much stays out of things, (other than keeping his covenants), and he lets men have their free agency to do whatever they want.


He could, if he wanted, imidatly converty everyone and drag them up into heaven, but that's not the point. People have to struggle and figure out this stuff for themselvs. All I am trying to show.. is that converting people.. is not soomething God is going to force.
but maybe less likely to even recive it? less likly to crucify him? who knows.

This argument is flawed. I never said God wanted to force us to convert. But I'd think that he would want to give us the best possible opportunity to do so, correct?

The message would've been spread much farther, a lot quicker, if he started in China. They developed ships that could withstand the open sea a lot faster than any other civilization. They were so far ahead of anything Europe or the Middle East had, that it wasn't even funny.

It would've given us the best chance to "Get back to him" as you say. And you say that you can't see the consequences of him starting in a different location? Well, I can, and they're all good.

Also, if God "stays out of things" I don't see any real point in believing in him. There is not benefit, and it is only a waste of time. If your God, truly is "all merciful and forgiving" (which he most certainly isn't in the Old Testament), then he will see my reasoning and forgive me when I die.

From: DaimosDenamos

Yes, I do know what free will is. However, how let's take some points, the basic:
God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. Now, back to the omniscient. Being so, he knows everything. If he knows everything, he knows about everything and everyone in the past, present and future and if he knows the future, he alredy knows if you'll ever ask his piety and forgiveness. By such, he alredy knows when you're born where you'll be sent when you die.

See? He doesn't need to control you, he alredy knows what to do when you die. This also goes against the idea that god is just and fair, because by common sense, creating someone just to send this person to hell ins't kind of fair.

ok then,
so how come God sometimes changes his mind?
how come he allows himself to be persuaded?

this does not sound like the actions of someone who knows anything and everything, persuasion simply does not work for a being such as this one

From: Yakman
ok then,
so how come God sometimes changes his mind?
how come he allows himself to be persuaded?

this does not sound like the actions of someone who knows anything and everything, persuasion simply does not work for a being such as this one

I'm sorry…but persuasion? Do you not know of the temptation of the devil on the mountain? If he can withstand that kind of persuasion, then he's got to know everything.

From: Santa_Clause
I'm sorry…but persuasion? Do you not know of the temptation of the devil on the mountain? If he can withstand that kind of persuasion, then he's got to know everything.

I'll take my example from the bible, because out of all the world's holy books, i know it in the most detail,

i love it when people haven't read the bible (or at least haven't understood it)

Abraham manages to persuade god,
In a few paragraphs starting from Genesis 18:20,

God starts by saying "I will utterly destroy the whole of [the town] Sodom", then Abraham manages to persuade him to not kill his cousin called Lot,

and theres quite a large dialog between Abraham and God, and its quite clear that Abraham manages to persuade God


here is part of the relevant parts of the bible,
although it doesnt mention Lot being Abraham's cousin, it says that somewhere else,

 20
    6 Then the LORD said: "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave,
21
    that I must go down and see whether or not their actions fully correspond to the cry against them that comes to me. I mean to find out."
22
    While the two men walked on farther toward Sodom, the LORD remained standing before Abraham.
23
    Then Abraham drew nearer to him and said: "Will you sweep away the innocent with the guilty?
24
    Suppose there were fifty innocent people in the city; would you wipe out the place, rather than spare it for the sake of the fifty innocent people within it?
25
    Far be it from you to do such a thing, to make the innocent die with the guilty, so that the innocent and the guilty would be treated alike! Should not the judge of all the world act with justice?"
26
    The LORD replied, "If I find fifty innocent people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."
27
    Abraham spoke up again: "See how I am presuming to speak to my Lord, though I am but dust and ashes!
28
    What if there are five less than fifty innocent people? Will you destroy the whole city because of those five?" "I will not destroy it," he answered, "if I find forty-five there."
29
    But Abraham persisted, saying, "What if only forty are found there?" He replied, "I will forebear doing it for the sake of the forty."
30
    Then he said, "Let not my Lord grow impatient if I go on. What if only thirty are found there?" He replied, "I will forebear doing it if I can find but thirty there."
31
    Still he went on, "Since I have thus dared to speak to my Lord, what if there are no more than twenty?" "I will not destroy it," he answered, "for the sake of the twenty."
32
    But he still persisted: "Please, let not my Lord grow angry if I speak up this last time. What if there are at least ten there?" "For the sake of those ten," he replied, "I will not destroy it."
33
    The LORD departed as soon as he had finished speaking with Abraham, and Abraham returned home.

in the chapter right after this, God sends two angels to Lot's house in Sodom, theres a whole chapter on what the angels do there and how Lot gets away,

some might say God was not persuaded but reminded


but my point stands,
if he exists, God is not omniscient. He does not know everything, and doesn't know about everything and everyone in the past, present and future.


let me put it this way, if I say "All swans are white", then someone only needs to find one black swan to prove me wrong,

here is one black swan, a shining counterexample,

The only two things I truly believe (religiously) in are a very basic God and Balance.

When I say basic I mean, a God that doesn't do much more than observe (from our point of view at least)

and when I say balance, I'm basically talking about yin/yang, good/bad.

And, no, I'm not a monk or bhuddist or whatever… :-P

I think everyone here should approach this differently, kind of like the way I am now if you catch my drift. ;)

From: IceFire908
The only two things I truly believe (religiously) in are a very basic God and Balance.

When I say basic I mean, a God that doesn't do much more than observe (from our point of view at least)

and when I say balance, I'm basically talking about yin/yang, good/bad.

And, no, I'm not a monk or bhuddist or whatever… :-P

I think everyone here should approach this differently, kind of like the way I am now if you catch my drift. ;)

thats all very well and good,
but this is meant to be a discussion, and you've just filled it up with "I believe, I believe, I believe, I believe"
which adds nothing to any debate, discussion or argument here,


perhaps you could tell us why you believe this, or maybe you'd like to defend your beliefs from people in the previous posts

From: Yakman
I'll take my example from the bible, because out of all the world's holy books, i know it in the most detail,

i love it when people haven't read the bible (or at least haven't understood it)

Abraham manages to persuade god,
In a few paragraphs starting from Genesis 18:20,

God starts by saying "I will utterly destroy the whole of [the town] Sodom", then Abraham manages to persuade him to not kill his cousin called Lot,

and theres quite a large dialog between Abraham and God, and its quite clear that Abraham manages to persuade God


here is part of the relevant parts of the bible,
although it doesnt mention Lot being Abraham's cousin, it says that somewhere else,

 20
    6 Then the LORD said: "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave,
21
    that I must go down and see whether or not their actions fully correspond to the cry against them that comes to me. I mean to find out."
22
    While the two men walked on farther toward Sodom, the LORD remained standing before Abraham.
23
    Then Abraham drew nearer to him and said: "Will you sweep away the innocent with the guilty?
24
    Suppose there were fifty innocent people in the city; would you wipe out the place, rather than spare it for the sake of the fifty innocent people within it?
25
    Far be it from you to do such a thing, to make the innocent die with the guilty, so that the innocent and the guilty would be treated alike! Should not the judge of all the world act with justice?"
26
    The LORD replied, "If I find fifty innocent people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."
27
    Abraham spoke up again: "See how I am presuming to speak to my Lord, though I am but dust and ashes!
28
    What if there are five less than fifty innocent people? Will you destroy the whole city because of those five?" "I will not destroy it," he answered, "if I find forty-five there."
29
    But Abraham persisted, saying, "What if only forty are found there?" He replied, "I will forebear doing it for the sake of the forty."
30
    Then he said, "Let not my Lord grow impatient if I go on. What if only thirty are found there?" He replied, "I will forebear doing it if I can find but thirty there."
31
    Still he went on, "Since I have thus dared to speak to my Lord, what if there are no more than twenty?" "I will not destroy it," he answered, "for the sake of the twenty."
32
    But he still persisted: "Please, let not my Lord grow angry if I speak up this last time. What if there are at least ten there?" "For the sake of those ten," he replied, "I will not destroy it."
33
    The LORD departed as soon as he had finished speaking with Abraham, and Abraham returned home.

in the chapter right after this, God sends two angels to Lot's house in Sodom, theres a whole chapter on what the angels do there and how Lot gets away,

some might say God was not persuaded but reminded


but my point stands,
if he exists, God is not omniscient. He does not know everything, and doesn't know about everything and everyone in the past, present and future.


let me put it this way, if I say "All swans are white", then someone only needs to find one black swan to prove me wrong,

here is one black swan, a shining counterexample,

I see nothing in those few verses that show any persuasion. Abraham merely asked a few questions, because he was afraid that the innocent would die as a result of the guilty people's actions. Is it not true that Abraham tried to find 10 pure people in Sodom and Gomorrah but he couldn't?

My interpretation of this chapter in the Bible: God did not want anyone to die if they did not deserve it. He saw Lot was pure enough to be spared for his actions:

3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

Therefore, God saved Lot and his family, and wiped out the city. Where is the persuasion in it? I don't even see Abraham mentioning the word Lot, so as far as I know, Abraham did not attempt to save Lot's family. If you tell me that all those questions were mainly aimed at finding a way to save Lot, then isn't it obvious that God is all-knowing, since he sent the two angels and tested Lot without Abraham even mentioning it? Or is God just a psychic, who isn't all-knowing and ever-present?

One last request: If you and I are going to argue this maturely, then I'd rather you refrain from using comments like 'I love when people haven't read the Bible (or at least understood it)'.

Sorry it took me so long to post.. been having some major issues with my computer.

From: crossback7
But I'd think that he would want to give us the best possible opportunity to do so, correct?

I would think so. But I do not know that the "best" oportunity really is. People are diferent, and need to learn things diferent ways. Not sure if a bunch of chineese people telling me about christ would work

From: crossback7

Well, I can, and they're all good.

That's more impresive than you think. I'll let you learn this one yourself, it's kinda a life lesson.

From: crossback7

Also, if God "stays out of things" I don't see any real point in believing in him. There is not benefit, and it is only a waste of time.

Well, this sounds pretty selfish, but I supose that's legit in your perspective, so here is what I have for you. First off, a God prayr works, and that is pretty powerfull. Second off, felling the spirit with you.. kicks ass. Third, havng added insight to everything you do can be benificial too. These are just a few of the "on earth" bonuses.

From: crossback7

If your God, truly is "all merciful and forgiving" (which he most certainly isn't in the Old Testament), then he will see my reasoning and forgive me when I die.

God is not merciful, he can not be. He can not forgive, because he is just. Jesus helps out though, he is forgiving, and will forgive you and let his sufering go towards what you would have to do to be just, and therefore you are both forgivein, and justice has been served. Anyhow, im not going to pass judgement on you, but there is allot more to being forgivin, than having a logical argument.

ah,

From: yakman
ok then,
so how come God sometimes changes his mind?
how come he allows himself to be persuaded?

Well, god can take a little loop hole to forgiveness through a little magic called the atonement.

We also need to keep in mind that you are reading the bible through mans perspective, not gods. Just because it looking like you saved god from kicking your ass because your a good perwauder, doesnt really mean you did. Maybe god was just bringing that up to show a point?

From: LordGregGreg
Sorry it took me so long to post.. been having some major issues with my computer.I would think so. But I do not know that the "best" oportunity really is. People are diferent, and need to learn things diferent ways. Not sure if a bunch of chineese people telling me about christ would work

. . .I don't technically know the "best" way either but that is certainly a better way.

That's more impresive than you think. I'll let you learn this one yourself, it's kinda a life lesson.
Well, this sounds pretty selfish, but I supose that's legit in your perspective, so here is what I have for you. First off, a God prayr works, and that is pretty powerfull. Second off, felling the spirit with you.. kicks ass. Third, havng added insight to everything you do can be benificial too. These are just a few of the "on earth" bonuses.

Prayers to God do not work. I truly believed in God for a long time, I prayed, I put my full faith in him. I never "felt the spirit with me" or "had added insight". Instead, your God let cancer kill my mom. Fuck God. He does not exist. And no, that was not the only reason I knew God did not exist. I don't let simple emotions get in the way of reasoning. There are no signs pointing to God.

I'm also not sure how it sounds selfish. That's like saying that Christians who believe they're going to heaven and that all who don't believe are going to hell are selfish. It's their belief, it does not necessarily mean they are selfish. The above is my belief, so don't call me selfish for it.

God is not merciful, he can not be. He can not forgive, because he is just. Jesus helps out though, he is forgiving, and will forgive you and let his sufering go towards what you would have to do to be just, and therefore you are both forgivein, and justice has been served. Anyhow, im not going to pass judgement on you, but there is allot more to being forgivin, than having a logical argument.

God is not merciful? Is God himself a hypocrite? The Bible most certainly states that he is indeed merciful. In several different verses if I'm not correct. And please do explain the parts in bold further.

Prayers to God do not work. I truly believed in God for a long time, I prayed, I put my full faith in him. I never "felt the spirit with me" or "had added insight". Instead, your God let cancer kill my mom. Fuck God. He does not exist. And no, that was not the only reason I knew God did not exist. I don't let simple emotions get in the way of reasoning. There are no signs pointing to God.

i dont like it when people try to disprove God for things like that. Or not even to disprove but to stop believing. If you truly had believed in God before, then something like that wouldnt affect you. People die every day. Dieing is a part of living just as living is a part of dieing. And its not a good argument anyway. It seems to me though, that you let that get to you much more than "nothing pointing to him".

Anyways, i wonder why "God" is very intrusive in life back then. Why is it that he makes huge changes in the past, but does not do anything so visible nowadays. He used to actively talking to people in the open and directly commanding people to do things. It seems to me that if someone stopped having direct contact with everyone for hundreds of years (other than the occasional "miracle" or talking to him ;) ) it would make it seem as if he was dead. Do we really have any reason to believe that if there was ever a "God", that he is still alive being a god?

sorry about my not being very clear. Clarity in my arguments gets muddled quite often :). (though im not trying to agrue, genuine curiosity, more like.)

From: Yakman
thats all very well and good,
but this is meant to be a discussion, and you've just filled it up with "I believe, I believe, I believe, I believe"
which adds nothing to any debate, discussion or argument here,


perhaps you could tell us why you believe this, or maybe you'd like to defend your beliefs from people in the previous posts

Ok.

Well the reason I believe this is because I see some who are very very religious and others that are very very anti-religious or just plain atheist. I guess the point I'm trying to display — We are all equally ignorant in the universe, regaurdless of theories, scientific explanations, religious and philosophical outlooks. We are all unable to disprove or prove anything, even scientific laws as strong as gravity can be challenged as to their exact meaning and definition.

But from what I've observed in history books and movies and other various scenarios (including this one) is that our differences in our beliefs when it comes to this matter can't be "discussed". It is these differences in our beliefs and disbelieves along with our self pleasures, greed, envy, sloth, gluttony, wrath, hate ect… that we fight, war, kill, suffer. Our behavior as humans in treating our differences (like our beliefs) is a self-destructive path that will be the ultimate downfall of mankind and civilization/advancement - enlightenment. You can disagree with me all you want to and say this is a simple discussion, and it is, but you can't deny it's self-destructive nature that is present. Because of this thread, because of our fighting as humans, because of our wars (over beliefs) we have and will continue to destroy any and everything.

Hope, we will rise above and become self-aware of our self-destructive behavior and prove that we are better.

The path to enlightenment/salvation starts with agreement and acceptance.

The path to ignorance/suffering begins with disagreement and denial.

The key to balance (life) is faith and patience.

Thanks.

IceFire908, thats not a reason why god exists,
thats a reason for why it would be useful if god existed,


it would be useful if there was an oilfield in my back garden, but that doesn't make it exist,

being useful does not imply existing



your argument seems to be something to comfort you, its a hand to hold, a friend to hug,
it comforts you only,

X is comforting does not imply X is true

From: Yakman
IceFire908, thats not a reason why god exists,
thats a reason for why it would be useful if god existed,


it would be useful if there was an oilfield in my back garden, but that doesn't make it exist,

being useful does not imply existing



your argument seems to be something to comfort you, its a hand to hold, a friend to hug,
it comforts you only,

X is comforting does not imply X is true

You disregarded my argument completely?

From: Yakman
IceFire908, thats not a reason why god exists,
thats a reason for why it would be useful if god existed,


it would be useful if there was an oilfield in my back garden, but that doesn't make it exist,

being useful does not imply existing



your argument seems to be something to comfort you, its a hand to hold, a friend to hug,
it comforts you only,

X is comforting does not imply X is true

I think you missed this part

We are all equally ignorant in the universe, regaurdless of theories, scientific explanations, religious and philosophical outlooks. We are all unable to disprove or prove anything, even scientific laws as strong as gravity can be challenged as to their exact meaning and definition.

There's no denying that.

And furthermore I think there isn't much more to it than that.


My point isn't that I believe what I do, it's just that who cares! we will never be right about anything.

No it is a not a reason why God exists, it's the reason why I believe what I do believe in (A very very "simple" God and Balance.)

If that part is throwing you off just read the bolded texts above.

your argument seems to be something to comfort you, its a hand to hold, a friend to hug,
it comforts you only,

X is comforting does not imply X is true

Not really, I don't care if my beliefs are true or not, I just try not to think about it ever.

If anything that fits that definition of comfort me, hand to hold, a friend to hug it's probably something along the lines of me and friend blowing shit up for fun or starting a massive fire for fun just to kill time.

Religious beliefs and scientific explanations can be considered "comforting hugs" if you think about it really.

Like I said, I just don't think about it, so I have no need for comfort or whatever lol.

I can see where you're coming from, but trust me, what you said does not apply to me.

My friend asked me what the meaning of life was and I told him "To be a beast."

I am an emotionless asshole, don't ever let me fool you.

Oh and you really kinda ignored the part about these types of discussion/debates/fights/wars/arguments are self-destructive ;)

From: crossback7
. . .I don't technically know the "best" way either but that is certainly a better way.

I think you are starting to see my point a little bit then. I understand how you think it doesn't really make seince, but personally, I shrug that part off because I have such a lack of information to show otherwise.

From: crossback7

Prayers to God do not work. I truly believed in God for a long time, I prayed, I put my full faith in him. I never "felt the spirit with me" or "had added insight". Instead, your God let cancer kill my mom. Fuck God. He does not exist. And no, that was not the only reason I knew God did not exist. I don't let simple emotions get in the way of reasoning. There are no signs pointing to God.

I am very sorry about your mom.

I was not trying to use thoes things to prove God exists, they are personal benefits that I feel, nothing more. Also, God lets tons of things happen that we don't want to, there are hundreds of bad things in this world, children get raped, etc. It is a very hard question to wonder why God does not stop this… And to be honest, it is one I struggle with. But the fact of the matter is that people must have their free agancy. Without bad there is no good. Beyond this , its impossible to explain without more faith. Death is a very important part of life. Everyone wants to change stuff about it.. but that very rarely happens.

From: crossback7

I'm also not sure how it sounds selfish. That's like saying that Christians who believe they're going to heaven and that all who don't believe are going to hell are selfish. It's their belief, it does not necessarily mean they are selfish. The above is my belief, so don't call me selfish for it.

No no, i think you mis-understood me. I am not at all calling people who don't belive selfish. In fact, I would argue that more belivers are selfish than non.. but thats off topic. All i meant was that you looking for "what's in it for you" when you asked me what the benifts of beliving were. But I also said thats complelty understandable, because, if there is nothing in it for you, its not worth even caring. Sometimes the knowing the truth is bonus too. (but once again, im not saying you don,t just theortically speaking if god did exist, what a benefit would be)

From: crossback7

God is not merciful?

No, he can not be. If he forgives someone of a sin they have committed, than justice has not been served.

From: crossback7
Is God himself a hypocrite? The Bible most certainly states that he is indeed merciful. In several different verses if I'm not correct.

Jesus is very very mercifull. And in the bible, there are lots of times when they are refering to him, instead of God. It has to do with the whole trilogy thing.

and you wanted me to explain the bold parts better.. they were

From: me
First off, a God prayr works, and that is pretty powerfull. Second off, felling the spirit with you.. kicks ass. Third, havng added insight to everything you do can be benificial too.

Well, like I said.. I have a bit of a personal testimony that prayr works. It is nothing that I can really prove, as it all could have been just good luck, but I get answers to my prayrs. Sometimes in feelings, sometimes in events. (and to be honest, sometimes not at all, as far as I see). When i was talking about having the spirit with you.. im refering to the holy ghost described in the bible. It's dificult to explain how that feels.. its like you feel your body just kinda glow, and your heart warmer.. Makes you feel allot more powerfull and comforted. And as far as insight goes.. sometimes I can understand things faster than, what I normally could without the spirit. I can see a persons heart, understand their intentions, or sometimes, much more physical things.. I was driving home one night, left lane because I was about to turn left… I felt like I needed to get out of that lane fast, so I did, and nearly avoided being hit. Like I said, its no proof at all, just things that I notice.

Other bold stuff..

From: me
there is allot more to being forgivin, than having a logical argument.

Yes, I was just refering to when you said "god will see my reasoning and understand". Which he very may will… I don't know. But I was just trying to say that it takes more than a good logical argument to get into heaven. Just because your life made logic to you, doesn't mean you go to heaven. I suppose on a heaven/hell thing, it just depends on what you do during your life. It's nice to know that god want's you in heaven allot more than you do right now, I am sure he will find a way.

So, I only visit this thread from time to time so I think this is going to be a big post.

My Replies:

From: LordGregGreg
We have to be getting something wrong, im not sure..
To refine this point more, it comes down to a conflict between, bascially "destiny" and "free agency".
It really looks like they both can't exist. If you are destined to do something… then how can you have a choice?

Well, being destined to do something doesn't implies you don't have choices. The idea is: we do have choices, but we alredy made them (before even knowing them). It's like a loaded dice, there are other possibilities that not the loaded side, however it will give the loaded side.

A all-knowing god can cause many logical problems:

If god knows everything, that means that when he created all the universe and also the first humans he knew that Adam and Eve would eat from the Tree of Knowledge and that he would banish them from Eden, originating the first sin and all the suffering of humanity.

Now tell me how can that be just? How could him punish Adam and Eve for disobeying him if he alredy knew they would do so?

Also, how fair can be punishing whole humanity for a sin that was not commited by them, only by two individuals.

Now, if someone says that god does know everything, but he have to be reminded sometimes, we can simply say god has bad memory therefore he is not perfect. If he were, he would know everything and could manage to have everything perfect in his mind and memory.

From: IceFire908

We are all equally ignorant in the universe, regaurdless of theories, scientific explanations, religious and philosophical outlooks. We are all unable to disprove or prove anything, even scientific laws as strong as gravity can be challenged as to their exact meaning and definition.

I agree that humanity doesn't know everything, actually we can be very far from it. However, this doesn't mean that everything we see and know cannot be proved or disproved. That would mean trashing every piece of knowledge we have, and also most of the logic of universe and present life.

That means that when you look at a dead person, you can't say if its dead or not. Yeah, there's no breath, the skin is pale, the head is severed but hey, it may be still alive.

Gravity have a clear meaning: You're stuck to the floor beacause of a force created by the Earth's mass. If gravity can be contested from the point of view of Quantum Phisics, that's another thing. A Helium filled baloon does not disprove Gravity because it floats, since its not related to gravity but the air's density.

From: IceFire908

Religious beliefs and scientific explanations can be considered "comforting hugs" if you think about it really.

I don't think that really IceFire. Studies says that lots of products we use, or the food I eat can cause cancer or some other disease, and the local priest says if we don't pray we are going to hell. I don't find any of these two explanations "comforting hugs".

From: Wool
He was asking what was before the whole "big bang" theory. Not how life started on earth..

From: isjusme
There were still life forms, but how did they get life? what "sparked" it? In the beginning of the big bang there was no life, so where did it come from?

He asked how life appeared after the Big Bang, and we do have life in Earth. My explanation ins't only for Earth. Chemical elements are everywhere in the universe, and chemical reactions are constant, so it can happen eveywhere when…

From: me
The clash of the required elements and substances to make chains of
molecules, in a young and in an ecological zone planet athmosfere with water, where the heat and the moisture would make the job.

It has been a nice discussion, please I expect no one gets offended. :(h):

From: DaimosDenamos
I agree that humanity doesn't know everything, actually we can be very far from it. However, this doesn't mean that everything we see and know cannot be proved or disproved. That would mean trashing every piece of knowledge we have, and also most of the logic of universe and present life.

Gravity have a clear meaning: You're stuck to the floor beacause of a force created by the Earth's mass. If gravity can be contested from the point of view of Quantum Phisics, that's another thing. A Helium filled baloon does not disprove Gravity because it floats, since its not related to gravity but the air's density.

I don't think that really IceFire. Studies says that lots of products we use, or the food I eat can cause cancer or some other disease, and the local priest says if we don't pray we are going to hell. I don't find any of these two explanations "comforting hugs".

Everything we know is idealistic, an invention of our brain to explain the world/ universe/ scenarios we live in deal with. We are all still equally ignorant in comparison to one another.

Gravity does not have a clear meaning that we can comprehend, and during the ages many new things have been discovered such as falling rates and other properties of nature, we still do not know everything about gravity. And from reading your description, neither do you. Gravity is a much much more complicated then the diction definition of two objects have an attraction based on mass and distance. Curvature of space and time also play a role in the g forces and disturbance. It can not and will ever been defined 100% or comprehended by us due to our inability to.

Studies say certain things cause cancer, just the bible says sins will bring you suffering and there's a chance you will burn in hell sort of speak for the rest of your life just like how science can make you feel better about knowing how the universe was created or how angles are watching over you. They both have negative and positive "comforts" and they are both an invention of man. Science and religion, philosophy and balance are all equally unprovable and ignorant.

The *ONLY* reason that I am here right now is to display to everyone here the general self destructive path (physically and mental damage) these types of arguments, discussions, wars, fights, ect.. have caused, can cause, will cause, and are causing to us (even just thinking about these matters can affect your mental health). I believe no good is coming from this what so ever. I think it's ok for science to ponder and try and understand the universe as it is good for estimating things, and religion is good for giving people hope ect.. but when it comes down to it we really need to BAN these types of discussions, arguments, fights, wars ect.. because they are self destructive and cause nothing but pain and suffering not just to us but everyone through out the history and future of the world.

Besides that reason (bolded above), I would just ignore this thread and avoid it, but someone needs to open your (as in all of you) eyes and think about what is happening.

Thanks.

From: IceFire908

The *ONLY* reason that I am here right now is to display to everyone here the general self destructive path (physically and mental damage) these types of arguments, discussions, wars, fights, ect.. have caused, can cause, will cause, and are causing to us (even just thinking about these matters can affect your mental health). I believe no good is coming from this what so ever. I think it's ok for science to ponder and try and understand the universe as it is good for estimating things, and religion is good for giving people hope ect.. but when it comes down to it we really need to BAN these types of discussions, arguments, fights, wars ect.. because they are self destructive and cause nothing but pain and suffering not just to us but everyone through out the history and future of the world.

Wow. I apreciate your concern,.. honestly. But I don't feel that anything is really getting out of hand. Sure, when it becomes a war, or a fight, then it needs to stop, but I feel that this is still a pretty good discussion. I havn't felt any pain or suffering from talking here, nor do I really think I have caused any. maybe just keeping a close eye on it is a better idea.

From: Daimos
Well, being destined to do something doesn't implies you don't have choices. The idea is: we do have choices, but we alredy made them (before even knowing them). It's like a loaded dice, there are other possibilities that not the loaded side, however it will give the loaded side.

That might be a way to look at it i suppose. I just still have a hard time reasoning with it.

From: Daimos


A all-knowing god can cause many logical problems:

Yeah. I am sure there is an explanation to them though (there has to be, imho) I must be looking at things from the wrong perspective right now. I think i will bring this up to a few zealots I know, and see if they giv me bull crap or not.

From: Daimos

Also, how fair can be punishing whole humanity for a sin that was not commited by them, only by two individuals.

Not sure what your talking about… I don't think i am going to get in trouble for something that I didn't do. I think that might be a catholic belief? Not sure.

Edit: ok.. i talked to a few people. Went on a christian chat thing, and that was just complete hell. Fools throwing out completly irelevant quotes, and then some other fool saying "amen" to it. Really weird. I tried to explain my question and all they said to me was that I was low in faith and needed to trust in god more. Stupid. I have lots of faith and trust in God one hell of allot, but that doesn't clarify this at all.
So anyhow. i talked with a few more people, and my fiencee seems to have the best explanation for this.
It's like having a friend who knows you very very well. They already know exactly what decisions you will make in some situations, and depending on how well they know you, the more accurate they are. Then you just take this phenomenom, and expand it towards infinity (of how well they know you). Just like you still have complete power to choose when you are around your freind, you still do in front of god, just he happens to already be right.

It takes some thinking about.. but that answer seems to make the most seince so far.

From: LordGregGreg
Wow. I apreciate your concern,.. honestly. But I don't feel that anything is really getting out of hand. Sure, when it becomes a war, or a fight, then it needs to stop, but I feel that this is still a pretty good discussion. I havn't felt any pain or suffering from talking here, nor do I really think I have caused any. maybe just keeping a close eye on it is a better idea.

Technically, you haven't (not yet anyways), but I can imagine some poor kid drifting off on these forums and digging up this topic and it having a very large sociological impact that can affect mental health.

However, I've displayed my point that I've been trying to make quite nicely.

I will leave it to the discuss-ees to take it from here.

I'll be observing this thread from now on, unless someone has a question for me ect…

From: IceFire908

The *ONLY* reason that I am here right now is to display to everyone here the general self destructive path (physically and mental damage) these types of arguments, discussions, wars, fights, ect.. have caused, can cause, will cause, and are causing to us (even just thinking about these matters can affect your mental health). I believe no good is coming from this what so ever. I think it's ok for science to ponder and try and understand the universe as it is good for estimating things, and religion is good for giving people hope ect.. but when it comes down to it we really need to BAN these types of discussions, arguments, fights, wars ect.. because they are self destructive and cause nothing but pain and suffering not just to us but everyone through out the history and future of the world.

i really think its impossible to stop people having discussions, if this gets closed down people will just go somewhere else,


to be honist i think that post is a desperate attempt to get this thread closed or make it lose popularity,
its basically saying "If you even think about God not existing, it will affect your mental health and you'll go insane"

i dont know if you came up with that yourself, or just repeated what you heard from a parent/priest, but it seems quite typical of religious people
"Accept God without questioning or bad things will happen (In this case, you'll go insane)"


your words remind me a lot of people who say you shouldnt read some books because they are the works of the devil.
I find it laughable that someone could become mentally ill just because they take part in a discussion.



As for the wars and fights, i do not think banning discussion is the answer, and it will probably backfire,

wars and fights are aggregated by a lack of understanding of the other side, discussions help you understand the other side, so by discussing things, you make people less likely to fight about it,

It is the system in which our modern governments work, when passing new laws, they discuss them instead of shooting each other.



i think the reason for those wars is religion itself,

take the example in the Northern Ireland troubles, there are two sides, they have exactly the same race, skin colour and customs, they enjoy the same thing and speak the same language.

but one side is protestant, and the other side is catholic.
There was much violence and many people died, over two different beliefs which are almost exactly the same anyway.


this is because of religion. Not religious extreamism, but common-or-garden religion which seperates people so much and causes neighbours to kill each other like that.

the wars in Northern Ireland, between Serbians/Croatians/Bosnias and Isreal/Palastine are all caused by religion. The world would be better off without them.



There used to be time when people would say "Oh lets just live-and-let-live, I'm not religious myself, but religious people dont harm anyone and are no different from the rest of us"

11th September 2001 changed all that, for the first time, religion directly caused a massive disaster which was shown on television and radio around the world,

Religion had given power to these people. Not religious extreamism, but religion itself.

If only one or two people were muslim and went to attack with planes, they would be labeled as insane, but because of the massive amounts of people who were muslim, they were seen as perfectly rational and had a lot of support.

It might seem surprising that these people believe what they say they believe, they are not using religion as an excuse, they actually believe it


But its so terrible that people cling on to their beliefs like this, and until it stops, these wars will just continue and continue.

From: Yakman
i really think its impossible to stop people having discussions, if this gets closed down people will just go somewhere else,


to be honist i think that post is a desperate attempt to get this thread closed or make it lose popularity,
its basically saying "If you even think about God not existing, it will affect your mental health and you'll go insane"

i dont know if you came up with that yourself, or just repeated what you heard from a parent/priest, but it seems quite typical of religious people
"Accept God without questioning or bad things will happen (In this case, you'll go insane)"


your words remind me a lot of people who say you shouldnt read some books because they are the works of the devil.
I find it laughable that someone could become mentally ill just because they take part in a discussion.

Err. no, you changed what I said.

I said thinking about religion and the origins of the universe our purpose of life is bad for mental health.

I didn't say believing in God and not thinking about is good. I guess you might of perceived that, but that's not what I meant at all really.

What I really mean is why is it so important?

For example there are

Hardcore religious people that relate religion to everything in their life.
Hardcore atheist people that try and distance religion from them.

Then there is people who just don't ever think about it.

It goes the saying Man pursuits happiness. Man in the beginning was happy until someone convinced him that he wasn't happy. Man goes and trys to find happiness. Only to realize happiness is nothing more than a choice that he's had all along from the start.

Man has no need for religion or beliefs until someone convinces him that he has a need for scientific explanations of his purpose in existence or a comforting hug from religion as to his purpose in life. So Man pursuits the answer to this riddle of life only to realize there is no answer, simply because there was never any question.

I hope this clarified my point for you.

(Just leave my personal beliefs of basic God/balance out of this since it's really throwing you off, just ignore that bit. I'm just trying to display the belief of not thinking or caring about religion, no I'm not trying to use this to prove my personal beliefs at all or why they exist, this is merely another point to be made)

"But its so terrible that people cling on to their beliefs like this, and until it stops, these wars will just continue and continue."

Yes Very Bad indeed.

Also

Atheism is also a belief, a belief that God does not exist.
Just as religion is a belief that God does exist.

They are both beliefs.

You believe God does not exist Yakman, just as much as someone who beliefs in God but in the opposite direction. But you still believe that.

Therefore, you are also a believer.

A nonbeliever wouldn't care or ever think about it. Doubt to him would be a complete waste of time just as believing would. You're more of an Anti-Believer (Yes a form of believing) than a Non-Believer.

—————

Back to my personal beliefs.

I was born into a catholic family and was taken to church every Sunday. Of course I'm an ignorant child and will believe anything my parents will tell me, or my friends, or the priests ect…so I end up growing up in a pretty sheltered life until I get into about Middle/High school (only one atheist kid at elementary, and it was just some annoying faggot that had no respect (not because he was atheist lol, he was just fag…)).

Anyways so I started finding discussions like this one which really let me think for myself for once and define my own beliefs, whether it'd be at school, with a friend, or online.

Some people live their entire lifes in complete ignorance (and it can be with anything, racism, religion, anti-religion, political views) Which might explain the 'hardcore people' and not even to mention the kids taught to suicide bomb so they can go see 72 virgins or something.

Yea religion also gives governments control over their people (mandate of heaven ect…)

I mostly respect anyone's beliefs as long as it has their consent and research instead of complete ignorance.

People usually belief what they do based on their lifes, so I'm interested to know your life story Yakman, whether or not you feel like telling us you don't have to. But this discussion may dig into the deeper depths of explanation if we root out as much as possible.

In my life only balance seems to have made any sense, since every time I unbalance my life bad shit happens. I don't really know how God found his way in the mix but he did, so yea… interesting.

Besides that I believe in evolution (well I think we don't know whole lot about it yet) the big bang all that good stuff science says ect…

————–

But anyways!! Back to the original question possed here by Yakman!

Arguments for God's existence.

My answer for that isn't why?, it's why not?

;)

we've moved into discussion about philosophy,
many a philosopher has said something along the lines of "If i wasn't a philosopher, i would be much happier"

or "ignorance is bliss"
I personally don't like this attitude because i always wanted to know how things works, and willingly staying in ignorance is very unattractive for me.



saying atheism is a belief is like saying health is a disease,
obviously that is wrong, health is an absence of disease, atheism is an absence of belief.



My life story.
I come from a country which was called yugoslavia, which was a socialist state in the eastern bloc of Europe.
I came from a village on the coast. I was raised a catholic and christened by my grandmother, even though my parents were both members of the communist party. I was generally taught a think-for-yourself attitude.

Then the Berlin wall came down, and all western communism governments collapsed, yugoslavia was split by religions, broken up into provinces. There was the predominantly orthodox Serbia, the muslim Bosnia, and the catholic Croatia (the part i was from)

you might be interested to know that c0de is from Bosnia, and he is muslim.


So there were these three sides fighting each other, we were the same race, the same skin colour, the same customs, and apart from regional dialects, spoke the same language. And yet we were split by our religion and fighting because of it.

So picture my situation:
Before, in the times of communism and atheism, there was peace.
After, in the times of "democracy" and religion, there was war.


I feel almost no loyalty or patriotism towards Croatia, its politicians accept bribes, its unemployment is high, and education is low. About 3% of Croatians go to university, and normally they emigrate, leaving a country with a brain-drain.


This is probably were my almost militant atheism comes from, i can see what religion did to my country.


I've moved to London UK, and find the liberalism and open-mindedness very nice.
Although there is religion, the idea of it having much influence is laughable.

There was a television interview with Tony Blair (the current head of state) and Jeremy Paxman (a very forceful interviewer)

Paxman: Is it true you actually pray with George Bush?! (said very forcefully and with disgust)
Blair: no no no no (hands held up)

so you can see the attitude of the british people, even though its known that Tony Blair is a devout Christian, he is trained by his Public Relations Team to say it has no part in government.

UK is also the home of Charles Darwin (who is on the £10 note and was given a state funeral) and Richard Dawkins, who have done much to help atheism.



I can completely understand you IceFire908, you are american, and with the notable exception of 11th of September, you have almost no first-hand experience with what religion can do.

"How can you say God does not exist? Just look around yourself."
Quote from a roman i just read.

I don't belive in God.

From: Yakman
we've moved into discussion about philosophy,
many a philosopher has said something along the lines of "If i wasn't a philosopher, i would be much happier"

or "ignorance is bliss"
I personally don't like this attitude because i always wanted to know how things works, and willingly staying in ignorance is very unattractive for me.



saying atheism is a belief is like saying health is a disease,
obviously that is wrong, health is an absence of disease, atheism is an absence of belief.



My life story.
I come from a country which was called yugoslavia, which was a socialist state in the eastern bloc of Europe.
I came from a village on the coast. I was raised a catholic and christened by my grandmother, even though my parents were both members of the communist party. I was generally taught a think-for-yourself attitude.

Then the Berlin wall came down, and all western communism governments collapsed, yugoslavia was split by religions, broken up into provinces. There was the predominantly orthodox Serbia, the muslim Bosnia, and the catholic Croatia (the part i was from)

you might be interested to know that c0de is from Bosnia, and he is muslim.


So there were these three sides fighting each other, we were the same race, the same skin colour, the same customs, and apart from regional dialects, spoke the same language. And yet we were split by our religion and fighting because of it.

So picture my situation:
Before, in the times of communism and atheism, there was peace.
After, in the times of "democracy" and religion, there was war.


I feel almost no loyalty or patriotism towards Croatia, its politicians accept bribes, its unemployment is high, and education is low. About 3% of Croatians go to university, and normally they emigrate, leaving a country with a brain-drain.


This is probably were my almost militant atheism comes from, i can see what religion did to my country.


I've moved to London UK, and find the liberalism and open-mindedness very nice.
Although there is religion, the idea of it having much influence is laughable.

There was a television interview with Tony Blair (the current head of state) and Jeremy Paxman (a very forceful interviewer)

Paxman: Is it true you actually pray with George Bush?! (said very forcefully and with disgust)
Blair: no no no no (hands held up)

so you can see the attitude of the british people, even though its known that Tony Blair is a devout Christian, he is trained by his Public Relations Team to say it has no part in government.

UK is also the home of Charles Darwin (who is on the £10 note and was given a state funeral) and Richard Dawkins, who have done much to help atheism.



I can completely understand you IceFire908, you are american, and with the notable exception of 11th of September, you have almost no first-hand experience with what religion can do.

Yes I am American, and no, I do not have any first hand experience with what religion can do besides September 11th, although I've experienced 1st hand how religion can cause disagreements and fights between my friends wether itd be online or in real life at school and such.

You could say I have 3rd hand experience, as for I am at least somewhat aware of what religion has done in other places in the world.

And yes I don't really think much of religion myself because it doesn't mean much to me, I almost look at it the same way you do. I only see it cause fighting and people overly caught up in their beliefs whether it be for malicious purposes or for a comforting hug like explained before - neither of which I have ever really been that interested in.

"My beliefs" aren't really beliefs, they're more of a philosophy I've developed over my life time that I use to guide decision making and keep me from thinking about questions I can never truly answer myself as much as possible.

I really do believe that God exists but is MUCH MUCH different than most people perceive it. Much much different… I could spend hours trying to explain but it doesn't make much sense and sounds too much like the other God that people perceive from the Bible ect…

I guess you could just say I believe in a creator of Science, and like I said that whole "balance" thing I believe in is nothing more than a philosophy I've built up over a life time of experiences that I use to guide me in decision making ect…

Besides that, I guess you could say I'm atheist, but I'm not… and I'm not exactly a hardcore catholic either.

To be honest I don't really know what I am, all I know is that it shouldn't really matter all that much. There's need to know what you believe in, or at least I think so.

I do however think some people put way to much faith in God to do things for them, I think this is just stupid. God ain't gonna do shit for you, sorry.

Benjamin Franklin once said

"God helps those who help themselfs."

Well I'd go as far as saying this

"God doesn't help anyone so help yourself."

Well I've said pretty much all I can say.

Erm…. uh….

-IceFire

I don't mind atheist, its just when they think that not believing in god makes them look smarter is when it pisses me off. I know people that say that preachers, and religious freaks try to force their religion on people, but if u say anything about god or faith then they call you stupid and they act like they don't want you to believe in god (keep in mind I'm not talking about all atheist, just some of the ones i know). And these people are usually the ones that think they are smarter than everyone else. If I was an atheist, which I'm not, I wouldn't want to try to prove to someone that god doesn't exist. If they are happy and think that when they die they will go to heaven, I think that telling them otherwise would just be plain mean, although I do see the difference between saying why your an atheist and saying that god is stupid.


I don't know what religion I am, but there are some things that people say that I think is wrong. For instance, when someone is like "Thats why god made telephones, or "God talked to me when I was younger." For one I think god has almost absolutely nothing to do with things that humans have done. Although i do think god is on the "good" countries side in wars and things like that. I think if we did anything to interfere with his plans he would send someone or something to stop whoever or whatever was interfering.

Well that's pretty much what i think. I didn't mean to offend any atheist btw.

The way i see it looking at the numbers for evolution and the big bang and all those other fun anti god points of view (I am not saying if you believe those happened you don't believe in god I am calling them what they were intended for an argument against divine creation) There has to be some kind of divine being now whether or not that thing should be worshiped is up to you. I see god as a mean kid with a magnifying glass over an ant hill and I will give you three guesses who the ants are and the first two guesses don't count

From: Harkonnen
The way i see it looking at the numbers for evolution and the big bang and all those other fun anti god points of view (I am not saying if you believe those happened you don't believe in god I am calling them what they were intended for an argument against divine creation) There has to be some kind of divine being now whether or not that thing should be worshiped is up to you. I see god as a mean kid with a magnifying glass over an ant hill and I will give you three guesses who the ants are and the first two guesses don't count

Interesting…

Personally I don't think God is "mean" or "nice" he's a perfect balance of the two.

From: IceFire908
Interesting…

Personally I don't think God is "mean" or "nice" he's a perfect balance of the two.

Which means he is 'just' or 'fair', exactly like the Bible says.

i really don't see why there "has" to be some divine being.

From: Yakman
i really don't see why there "has" to be some divine being.

Why not? :-P

All I am saying is that the numbers that are the odds for a full universe of matter being created from nothing then two single cell organisms evolving into a species that is able to reproduce and those two organisms actually findin each other is slim to none

Its a long post down there, but please do read it. :)

From: IceFire908
Why not? :-P

there is no evidence that God exists.

there is an equal amount of evidence for Thor, Apollo, Allah and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
I suspect the only reason you believe in a Judao-Christan God is because you were brought up that way.


If you were brought up in the Middle-East, Greece in ancient times, or Denmark in the dark ages, you would believe in other God(s).



as for you Harkonnen,

From: Harkonnen
for a full universe of matter…

Doesn't necessarily have to be a full universe.
It is extremely likely that the universe was very different in the past, and changed to become how it looks now.

What you just said comes from the (wrong) assumption that the universe never changes, and that it has always looked like today, and will continue to look like that for ever.

From: Harkonnen
…being created from nothing then two single cell organisms…

This is flawed. We have reason to believe that when DNA first came into existence, it was completely bare and naked.
Afterwards, it developed some kind of membrane, and today its called a cell.

From: Harkonnen
…evolving into a species that is able to reproduce…

All life is able to reproduce, that is the fundamental concept of DNA, that it can replicate itself.

I keep going on about DNA a lot, it explains many things about life, it has been called "The secret of life".

From: Harkonnen
…and those two organisms actually findin each other…

We have reason to believe that the first DNA had no concept of male or female, and had no reason to require another being to reproduce.

The first DNA could just reproduce on its own, without help from someone else.
However, two DNA reproducing is favoured a lot by natural selection, thats why it survives.






Even if non of the above happened, and science has made a mistake, but that does not make the theory of God be correct.

Notice that, If theory A is incorrect, that does not make theory B true



The way i see it is like this, in the past, when humans did not understand something, they said "God did it", which explains nothing.


When people did not know what the sun was, they said it was the flaming chariot of Apollo, and worshiped Apollo like a deity.
Now we know the sun is a star, getting its energy from nuclear reactions.


When people did not know how life came to be so diverse and complex, they said God created it.
Now we know the complexity is because of the process of evolution by natural selection.


When people did not know how the universe was created, they said God did it.
Science has not solved this one yet.

If we look at the examples above, we can see that science will solve this one too.




I ask you this Harkonnen, if a creature called God was capable of creating a complex universe as we see today, then God must be very complex himself. So how did he/she/it come into existence?

When you say "God did it", this doesn't solve anything, because it leaves the question of who created God?

From: Yakman
Its a long post down there, but please do read it. :)




there is no evidence that God exists.

there is an equal amount of evidence for Thor, Apollo, Allah and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
I suspect the only reason you believe in a Judao-Christan God is because you were brought up that way.


If you were brought up in the Middle-East, Greece in ancient times, or Denmark in the dark ages, you would believe in other God(s).

There is the no evidence that God does not exist.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Simply because you don't have evidence that something does exist doesn't mean you have evidence that something doesn't exist.

There is also an equal amount of evidence for the non-existence of God as there is for Thor, Apollo, Allah and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I suspect the only reason you do not believe in God is because you see no reason to, thus making it an unnecessary belief. However, this is does not add or remove the possibility of there being a divine being.

We are all equally ignorant in this matter and just to show you exactly how much time you are wasting considering any real evidence and how trivial this thread really is, I can show you a counter argument for any belief whether it is of or not of God.

You can keep it simple, as no one will ever know or as complex as an entire book of philosophical counter arguments, you will end up back where you started and that is.

No one will ever know or be sure of anything, and that means all information in these types of debates are equally ignorant.

"I think therefor I am."

That's the only thing you can be certain of, if you want to prove or disprove God you have many other statements such as the one above before solving something that complicated.

AKA

No one will ever know.

Which if you were a logical thinker, you would come to the conclusion there is no point in believing or disbelieving in God.

From: Yakman
Its a long post down there, but please do read it. :)




there is no evidence that God exists.

there is an equal amount of evidence for Thor, Apollo, Allah and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
I suspect the only reason you believe in a Judao-Christan God is because you were brought up that way.


If you were brought up in the Middle-East, Greece in ancient times, or Denmark in the dark ages, you would believe in other God(s).



as for you Harkonnen,



Doesn't necessarily have to be a full universe.
It is extremely likely that the universe was very different in the past, and changed to become how it looks now.

What you just said comes from the (wrong) assumption that the universe never changes, and that it has always looked like today, and will continue to look like that for ever.





This is flawed. We have reason to believe that when DNA first came into existence, it was completely bare and naked.
Afterwards, it developed some kind of membrane, and today its called a cell.





All life is able to reproduce, that is the fundamental concept of DNA, that it can replicate itself.

I keep going on about DNA a lot, it explains many things about life, it has been called "The secret of life".





We have reason to believe that the first DNA had no concept of male or female, and had no reason to require another being to reproduce.

The first DNA could just reproduce on its own, without help from someone else.
However, two DNA reproducing is favoured a lot by natural selection, thats why it survives.






Even if non of the above happened, and science has made a mistake, but that does not make the theory of God be correct.

Notice that, If theory A is incorrect, that does not make theory B true



The way i see it is like this, in the past, when humans did not understand something, they said "God did it", which explains nothing.


When people did not know what the sun was, they said it was the flaming chariot of Apollo, and worshiped Apollo like a deity.
Now we know the sun is a star, getting its energy from nuclear reactions.


When people did not know how life came to be so diverse and complex, they said God created it.
Now we know the complexity is because of the process of evolution by natural selection.


When people did not know how the universe was created, they said God did it.
Science has not solved this one yet.

If we look at the examples above, we can see that science will solve this one too.




I ask you this Harkonnen, if a creature called God was capable of creating a complex universe as we see today, then God must be very complex himself. So how did he/she/it come into existence?

When you say "God did it", this doesn't solve anything, because it leaves the question of who created God?

I'm sorry, but do you realise that your claims are based on history? What you're saying is: 'It's happened before, therefore it's going to happen again'. Just because science has disproved religion before - not Christianity, if I may add - doesn't mean it'll disprove it again.

One more thing, it was Darwin that suggested the theory of evolution, correct? Half the world was ignorant enough to believe him, but then he left all his work, decided that evolution was impossible and became a Christian. Why not follow Darwin again, and decide that evolution is impossible?

Now, the ending line. I love it when people contradict themselves by criticising others without realising that they're doing the exact same thing. I really hope someone decides to comment on my post this time. Last time Yakman completely disregarded it, maybe he didn't have an answer.

Hey Yakman. I think you took Harkonnen's post completly wrong. Harkonnen wasn't trying to show how the science explanation was wrong… in fact, It looks like he supports it.

I think the point he was trying to make, was that for the scientific path to be true, (or ANY path, in that case) then there must be a creator. The odds are too astounding to really think otherwise.

now i know blah blah if theory a seems astounding then theory b isnt true. but thats not my point.
It just that no matter what theory you come up with, ANY theory, about life like a human being ending up on this earth. Is just absolutely amazing, and such a small stroke of "luck".

Anyhow, take it for what its worth.

Yakman you took me all out of context

as for the evolution of species here is the definition of species

Biology. the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species.

so all I was saying is for the fact of a single cell organism evolving into something that evolves into something can can breed with another creature

Because I do know all about asexual creation lots of worms are asexual at least the female of the species =) the odds of a creature evolving into a organism able to breed with another is the nearest to impossible as your are ever going to get.

Now for the big bang
(this is going to be probably very long please bear in with me

The Big Bang is the cosmological model of the universe that is best supported by all lines of scientific evidence and observation. The essential idea is that the universe has expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition at some finite time in the past and continues to expand to this day. Georges Lemaître proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory of the origin of the Universe, although he called it his 'hypothesis of the primeval atom'. The framework for the model relies on Albert Einstein's General Relativity as formulated by Alexander Friedmann. After Edwin Hubble discovered in 1929 that the distances to far away galaxies were generally proportional to their redshifts, this observation was taken to indicate that all very distant galaxies and clusters have an apparent velocity directly away from our vantage point. The farther away, the higher the apparent velocity.[1] If the distance between galaxy clusters is increasing today, everything must have been closer together in the past. This idea has been considered in detail back in time to extreme densities and temperatures, and large particle accelerators have been built to experiment on and test such conditions, resulting in significant confirmation of the theory. But these accelerators can only probe so far into such high energy regimes. Without any evidence associated with the earliest instant of the expansion, the Big Bang theory cannot and does not provide any explanation for such an initial condition. The theory accurately explains the general evolution of the universe since that instant.

A major success of the theory is its ability to account for the comparative abundance of the elements we find around us, which if you look beyond Earth is mostly hydrogen and helium. The observed abundances of the light elements throughout the cosmos closely match the calculated predictions for the formation of these elements from nuclear processes in the rapidly expanding and cooling first minutes of the universe, as logically and quantitatively detailed according to Big Bang nucleosynthesis and well described in Steven Weinberg's classic The First Three Minutes.

The term 'Big Bang' was apparently first coined by Fred Hoyle in a derisory statement seeking to belittle the credibility of the theory that he did not believe to be true.[2] Ironically, Hoyle helped considerably in the effort to figure out the nuclear pathway for building certain heavier elements from lighter ones. At any rate, after the discovery of the cosmic microwave background in 1964, and especially when its collective frequencies sketched out a blackbody curve, most scientists were fairly convinced by the evidence that some Big Bang scenario must have occurred.

The Big Bang theory developed from observations of the structure of the universe and from theoretical considerations. In 1912 Vesto Slipher measured the first Doppler shift of a "spiral nebula" (spiral nebula is the obsolete term for spiral galaxies), and soon discovered that almost all such nebulae were receding from Earth. He did not grasp the cosmological implications of this fact, and indeed at the time it was highly controversial whether or not these nebulae were "island universes" outside our Milky Way.[3] Ten years later, Alexander Friedmann, a Russian cosmologist and mathematician, derived the Friedmann equations from Albert Einstein's equations of general relativity, showing that the universe might be expanding in contrast to the static universe model advocated by Einstein.[4] In 1924, Edwin Hubble's measurement of the great distance to the nearest spiral nebulae showed that these systems were indeed other galaxies. Independently deriving Friedmann's equations in 1927, Georges Lemaître, a Belgian physicist and Roman Catholic priest, predicted that the recession of the nebulae was due to the expansion of the universe.[5]

In 1931 Lemaître went further and suggested that the evident expansion in forward time required that the universe contracted backwards in time, and would continue to do so until it could contract no further, bringing all the mass of the universe into a single point, a "primeval atom", at a point in time before which time and space did not exist. As such, at this point, the fabric of time and space had not yet come into existence. This perhaps echoed previous speculations about the cosmic egg origin of the universe.[6]

Starting in 1924, Hubble painstakingly developed a series of distance indicators, the forerunner of the cosmic distance ladder, using the 100-inch (2,500 mm) Hooker telescope at Mount Wilson Observatory. This allowed him to estimate distances to galaxies whose redshifts had already been measured, mostly by Slipher. In 1929, Hubble discovered a correlation between distance and recession velocity—now known as Hubble's law.[1][7] Lemaître had already shown that this was expected, given the Cosmological Principle.[8] During the 1930s other ideas were proposed as non-standard cosmologies to explain Hubble's observations, including the Milne model,[9] the oscillatory universe (originally suggested by Friedmann, but advocated by Einstein and Richard Tolman)[10] and Fritz Zwicky's tired light hypothesis.[11]

After World War II, two distinct possibilities emerged. One was Fred Hoyle's steady state model, whereby new matter would be created as the universe seemed to expand. In this model, the universe is roughly the same at any point in time.[12] The other was Lemaître's Big Bang theory, advocated and developed by George Gamow, who introduced big bang nucleosynthesis[13] and whose associates, Ralph Alpher and Robert Herman, predicted the cosmic microwave background (CMB).[14] It is an irony that it was Hoyle who coined the name that would come to be applied to Lemaître's theory, referring to it as "this big bang idea" in derision during a 1950 BBC radio broadcast.[15][16] For a while, support was split between these two theories. Eventually, the observational evidence, most notably from radio source counts, began to favor the latter. The discovery of the cosmic microwave background radiation in 1964[17] secured the Big Bang as the best theory of the origin and evolution of the cosmos. Much of the current work in cosmology includes understanding how galaxies form in the context of the Big Bang, understanding the physics of the universe at earlier and earlier times, and reconciling observations with the basic theory.

Huge strides in Big Bang cosmology have been made since the late 1990s as a result of major advances in telescope technology as well as the analysis of copious data from satellites such as COBE,[18] the Hubble Space Telescope and WMAP.[19] Cosmologists now have fairly precise measurement of many of the parameters of the Big Bang model, and have made the unexpected discovery that the expansion of the universe appears to be accelerating.
Extrapolation of the expansion of the universe backwards in time using general relativity yields an infinite density and temperature at a finite time in the past.[20] This singularity signals the breakdown of general relativity. How closely we can extrapolate towards the singularity is debated—certainly not earlier than the Planck epoch. The early hot, dense phase is itself referred to as "the Big Bang",[21] and is considered the "birth" of our universe. Based on measurements of the expansion using Type Ia supernovae, measurements of temperature fluctuations in the cosmic microwave background, and measurements of the correlation function of galaxies, the universe has a calculated age of 13.73 ± 0.12 billion years.[22] The agreement of these three independent measurements strongly supports the ΛCDM model that describes in detail the contents of the universe.

The earliest phases of the Big Bang are subject to much speculation. In the most common models, the universe was filled homogeneously and isotropically with an incredibly high energy density, huge temperatures and pressures, and was very rapidly expanding and cooling. Approximately 10−35 seconds into the expansion, a phase transition caused a cosmic inflation, during which the universe grew exponentially.[23] After inflation stopped, the universe consisted of a quark-gluon plasma, as well as all other elementary particles.[24] Temperatures were so high that the random motions of particles were at relativistic speeds, and particle-antiparticle pairs of all kinds were being continuously created and destroyed in collisions. At some point an unknown reaction called baryogenesis violated the conservation of baryon number, leading to a very small excess of quarks and leptons over antiquarks and anti-leptons—of the order of 1 part in 30 million. This resulted in the predominance of matter over antimatter in the present universe.[25]

The universe continued to grow in size and fall in temperature, hence the typical energy of each particle was decreasing. Symmetry breaking phase transitions put the fundamental forces of physics and the parameters of elementary particles into their present form.[26] After about 10−11 seconds, the picture becomes less speculative, since particle energies drop to values that can be attained in particle physics experiments. At about 10−6 seconds, quarks and gluons combined to form baryons such as protons and neutrons. The small excess of quarks over antiquarks led to a small excess of baryons over antibaryons. The temperature was now no longer high enough to create new proton-antiproton pairs (similarly for neutrons-antineutrons), so a mass annihilation immediately followed, leaving just one in 1010 of the original protons and neutrons, and none of their antiparticles. A similar process happened at about 1 second for electrons and positrons. After these annihilations, the remaining protons, neutrons and electrons were no longer moving relativistically and the energy density of the universe was dominated by photons (with a minor contribution from neutrinos).

A few minutes into the expansion, when the temperature was about a billion (one thousand million; 109; SI prefix giga) Kelvin and the density was about that of air, neutrons combined with protons to form the universe's deuterium and helium nuclei in a process called Big Bang nucleosynthesis.[27] Most protons remained uncombined as hydrogen nuclei. As the universe cooled, the rest mass energy density of matter came to gravitationally dominate that of the photon radiation. After about 379,000 years the electrons and nuclei combined into atoms (mostly hydrogen); hence the radiation decoupled from matter and continued through space largely unimpeded. This relic radiation is known as the cosmic microwave background radiation.[28]

Over a long period of time, the slightly denser regions of the nearly uniformly distributed matter gravitationally attracted nearby matter and thus grew even denser, forming gas clouds, stars, galaxies, and the other astronomical structures observable today. The details of this process depend on the amount and type of matter in the universe. The three possible types of matter are known as cold dark matter, hot dark matter and baryonic matter. The best measurements available (from WMAP) show that the dominant form of matter in the universe is cold dark matter. The other two types of matter make up less than 18% of the matter in the universe.[22]

Independent lines of evidence from Type Ia supernovae and the CMB imply the universe today is dominated by a mysterious form of energy known as dark energy, which apparently permeates all of space. The observations suggest 72% of the total energy density of today's universe is in this form. When the universe was very young, it was likely infused with dark energy, but with less space and everything closer together, gravity had the upper hand, and it was slowly braking the expansion. But eventually, after numerous billion years of expansion, the growing abundance of dark energy caused the expansion of the universe to slowly begin to accelerate. Dark energy in its simplest formulation takes the form of the cosmological constant term in Einstein's field equations of general relativity, but its composition and mechanism are unknown and, more generally, the details of its equation of state and relationship with the Standard Model of particle physics continue to be investigated both observationally and theoretically.[8]

All of this cosmic evolution after the inflationary epoch can be rigorously described and modeled by the ΛCDM model of cosmology, which uses the independent frameworks of quantum mechanics and Einstein's General Relativity. As noted above, there is no well-supported model describing the action prior to 10−15 seconds or so. Apparently a new unified theory of quantum gravitation is needed to break this barrier. Understanding this earliest of eras in the history of the universe is currently one of the greatest unsolved problems in physics.

Big bang theory assumptions

The Big Bang theory depends on two major assumptions: the universality of physical laws, and the Cosmological Principle. The cosmological principle states that on large scales the universe is homogeneous and isotropic.

These ideas were initially taken as postulates, but today there are efforts to test each of them. For example, the first assumption has been tested by observations showing that largest possible deviation of the fine structure constant over much of the age of the universe is of order 10−5.[29] Also, General Relativity has passed stringent tests on the scale of the solar system and binary stars while extrapolation to cosmological scales has been validated by the empirical successes of various aspects of the Big Bang theory.[30]

If the large-scale universe appears isotropic as viewed from Earth, the cosmological principle can be derived from the simpler Copernican Principle, which states that there is no preferred (or special) observer or vantage point. To this end, the cosmological principle has been confirmed to a level of 10−5 via observations of the CMB.[31] The universe has been measured to be homogeneous on the largest scales at the 10% level.[32]

FLRW metric

Main articles: Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker metric and Metric expansion of space

General relativity describes spacetime by a metric, which determines the distances that separate nearby points. The points, which can be galaxies, stars, or other objects, themselves are specified using a coordinate chart or "grid" that is laid down over all spacetime. The cosmological principle implies that the metric should be homogeneous and isotropic on large scales, which uniquely singles out the Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker metric (FLRW metric). This metric contains a scale factor, which describes how the size of the universe changes with time. This enables a convenient choice of a coordinate system to be made, called comoving coordinates. In this coordinate system, the grid expands along with the universe, and objects that are moving only due to the expansion of the universe remain at fixed points on the grid. While their coordinate distance (comoving distance) remains constant, the physical distance between two such comoving points expands proportionally with the scale factor of the universe.[33]

The Big Bang is not an explosion of matter moving outward to fill an empty universe. Instead, space itself expands with time everywhere and increases the physical distance between two comoving points. Because the FLRW metric assumes a uniform distribution of mass and energy, it applies to our universe only on large scales—local concentrations of matter such as our galaxy are gravitationally bound and as such do not experience the large-scale expansion of space.

Horizons

Main article: Cosmological horizon

An important feature of the Big Bang spacetime is the presence of horizons. Since the universe has a finite age, and light travels at a finite speed, there may be events in the past whose light has not had time to reach us. This places a limit or a past horizon on the most distant objects that can be observed. Conversely, because space is expanding, and more distant objects are receding ever more quickly, light emitted by us today may never "catch up" to very distant objects. This defines a future horizon, which limits the events in the future that we will be able to influence. The presence of either type of horizon depends on the details of the FLRW model that describes our universe. Our understanding of the universe back to very early times suggests that there was a past horizon, though in practice our view is limited by the opacity of the universe at early times. If the expansion of the universe continues to accelerate, there is a future horizon as well.[34]

Observational evidence

The earliest and most direct kinds of observational evidence are the Hubble-type expansion seen in the redshifts of galaxies, the detailed measurements of the cosmic microwave background, and the abundance of light elements (see Big Bang nucleosynthesis). These are sometimes called the three pillars of the big bang theory. Many other lines of evidence now support the picture, notably various properties of the large-scale structure of the cosmos[35] which are predicted to occur due to gravitational growth of structure in the standard Big Bang theory.

Hubble's law and the expansion of space

Main articles: Hubble's law and metric expansion of space
See also: distance measures (cosmology) and scale factor (universe)

Observations of distant galaxies and quasars show that these objects are redshifted—the light emitted from them has been shifted to longer wavelengths. This can be seen by taking a frequency spectrum of an object and matching the spectroscopic pattern of emission lines or absorption lines corresponding to atoms of the chemical elements interacting with the light. These redshifts are uniformly isotropic, distributed evenly among the observed objects in all directions. If the redshift is interpreted as a Doppler shift, the recessional velocity of the object can be calculated. For some galaxies, it is possible to estimate distances via the cosmic distance ladder. When the recessional velocities are plotted against these distances, a linear relationship known as Hubble's law is observed:[1]

v = H_0 D \,

where

v is the recessional velocity of the galaxy or other distant object
D is the comoving proper distance to the object and
H0 is Hubble's constant, measured to be 70.1 ± 1.3 km/s/Mpc by the WMAP probe.[22]

Hubble's law has two possible explanations. Either we are at the center of an explosion of galaxies—which is untenable given the Copernican Principle—or the universe is uniformly expanding everywhere. This universal expansion was predicted from general relativity by Alexander Friedman in 1922[4] and Georges Lemaître in 1927,[5] well before Hubble made his 1929 analysis and observations, and it remains the cornerstone of the Big Bang theory as developed by Friedmann, Lemaître, Robertson and Walker.

The theory requires the relation v = HD to hold at all times, where D is the proper distance, v = dD / dt, and v, H, and D all vary as the universe expands (hence we write H0 to denote the present-day Hubble "constant"). For distances much smaller than the size of the observable universe, the Hubble redshift can be thought of as the Doppler shift corresponding to the recession velocity v. However, the redshift is not a true Doppler shift, but rather the result of the expansion of the universe between the time the light was emitted and the time that it was detected.[36]

That space is undergoing metric expansion is shown by direct observational evidence of the Cosmological Principle and the Copernican Principle, which together with Hubble's law have no other explanation. Astronomical redshifts are extremely isotropic and homogenous,[1] supporting the Cosmological Principle that the universe looks the same in all directions, along with much other evidence. If the redshifts were the result of an explosion from a center distant from us, they would not be so similar in different directions.

Measurements of the effects of the cosmic microwave background radiation on the dynamics of distant astrophysical systems in 2000 proved the Copernican Principle, that the Earth is not in a central position, on a cosmological scale.[37] Radiation from the Big Bang was demonstrably warmer at earlier times throughout the universe. Uniform cooling of the cosmic microwave background over billions of years is explainable only if the universe is experiencing a metric expansion, and excludes the possibility that we are near the unique center of an explosion.

Cosmic microwave background radiation

Main article: Cosmic microwave background radiation
During the first few days of the universe, the universe was in full thermal equilibrium, with photons being continually emitted and absorbed, giving the radiation a blackbody spectrum. As the universe expanded, it cooled to a temperature at which photons could no longer be created or destroyed. The temperature was still high enough for electrons and nuclei to remain unbound, however, and photons were constantly "reflected" from these free electrons through a process called Thomson scattering. Because of this repeated scattering, the early universe was opaque to light.

When the temperature fell to a few thousand Kelvin, electrons and nuclei began to combine to form atoms, a process known as recombination. Since photons scatter infrequently from neutral atoms, radiation decoupled from matter when nearly all the electrons had recombined, at the epoch of last scattering, 379,000 years after the Big Bang. These photons make up the CMB that is observed today, and the observed pattern of fluctuations in the CMB is a direct picture of the universe at this early epoch. The energy of photons was subsequently redshifted by the expansion of the universe, which preserved the blackbody spectrum but caused its temperature to fall, meaning that the photons now fall into the microwave region of the electromagnetic spectrum. The radiation is thought to be observable at every point in the universe, and comes from all directions with (almost) the same intensity.

In 1964, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson accidentally discovered the cosmic background radiation while conducting diagnostic observations using a new microwave receiver owned by Bell Laboratories.[17] Their discovery provided substantial confirmation of the general CMB predictions—the radiation was found to be isotropic and consistent with a blackbody spectrum of about 3 K—and it pitched the balance of opinion in favor of the Big Bang hypothesis. Penzias and Wilson were awarded a Nobel Prize for their discovery.

In 1989, NASA launched the Cosmic Background Explorer satellite (COBE), and the initial findings, released in 1990, were consistent with the Big Bang's predictions regarding the CMB. COBE found a residual temperature of 2.726 K and in 1992 detected for the first time the fluctuations (anisotropies) in the CMB, at a level of about one part in 105.[18] John C. Mather and George Smoot were awarded Nobels for their leadership in this work. During the following decade, CMB anisotropies were further investigated by a large number of ground-based and balloon experiments. In 2000–2001, several experiments, most notably BOOMERanG, found the universe to be almost spatially flat by measuring the typical angular size (the size on the sky) of the anisotropies. (See shape of the universe.)

In early 2003, the first results of the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy satellite (WMAP) were released, yielding what were at the time the most accurate values for some of the cosmological parameters. This satellite also disproved several specific cosmic inflation models, but the results were consistent with the inflation theory in general,[19] it confirms too that a sea of cosmic neutrinos permeates the universe, a clear evidence that the first stars took more than a half-billion years to create a cosmic fog. Another satellite like it will be launched within the next few years, the Planck Surveyor, which will provide even more accurate measurements of the CMB anisotropies. Many other ground- and balloon-based experiments are also currently running; see Cosmic microwave background experiments.

The background radiation is exceptionally smooth, which presented a problem in that conventional expansion would mean that photons coming from opposite directions in the sky were coming from regions that had never been in contact with each other. The leading explanation for this far reaching equilibrium is that the universe had a brief period of rapid exponential expansion, called inflation. This would have the effect of driving apart regions that had been in equilibrium, so that all the observable universe was from the same equilibrated region.

Abundance of primordial elements

Main article: Big Bang nucleosynthesis

Using the Big Bang model it is possible to calculate the concentration of helium-4, helium-3, deuterium and lithium-7 in the universe as ratios to the amount of ordinary hydrogen, H.[27] All the abundances depend on a single parameter, the ratio of photons to baryons, which itself can be calculated independently from the detailed structure of CMB fluctuations. The ratios predicted (by mass, not by number) are about 0.25 for 4He/H, about 10−3 for ²H/H, about 10−4 for ³He/H and about 10−9 for 7Li/H.[27]

The measured abundances all agree at least roughly with those predicted from a single value of the baryon-to-photon ratio. The agreement is excellent for deuterium, close but formally discrepant for 4He, and a factor of two off for 7Li; in the latter two cases there are substantial systematic uncertainties. Nonetheless, the general consistency with abundances predicted by BBN is strong evidence for the Big Bang, as the theory is the only known explanation for the relative abundances of light elements, and it is virtually impossible to "tune" the Big Bang to produce much more or less than 20–30% helium.[38] Indeed there is no obvious reason outside of the Big Bang that, for example, the young universe (i.e., before star formation, as determined by studying matter supposedly free of stellar nucleosynthesis products) should have more helium than deuterium or more deuterium than ³He, and in constant ratios, too

Well that should be enough

Most of the big bang theory involves the creation of matter from the use of anti matter well logic is flawed there because anti matter is the direct result of the balance of an equal amount of matter so a oz of matter has an oz of antimatter so therefore in order to have an antimatter explosion you need and equal amount of matter

Now an explosion of anti matter would be very violent not totally destructive as you might think but volitile as in dont get to close you probably wont be the same after wards

but an explosion of antimatter would not create mattr just destroy as much matter as antimatter in order to maintain a balance.

As for the universe being static I know that it is not a stationary object never changing in fact it is ever expanding
(giving way to the idea of the big bang)

Thanx sorry for the horribly long post

How can omnibenevolent being be omnipotent? If God cannot be evil he isn't all powerful.

This type of threads seem stupid to me because it's always the same

"You can't prove evolution is true so god exists."

and

"The chances of evolution etc. are so slim. Chances of a magic guy popping out of nowhere and starting to create everything are like so much higher."

I just don't understand how people don't notice how stupid that sounds. Talking about the odds and logic of evolution and claiming it makes no sense and whatnot and god just appearing out of nowhere to create the universe and all makes oh so much sense..

.. Cba to make some fancy post with science and whatnot to have it ignored and answered to by "but god exists because i want to think so". But the whole idea of god seems so ridiculously stupid to me that it makes me laugh.

From: juufkk
How can omnibenevolent being be omnipotent? If God cannot be evil he isn't all powerful.

Sigh. This really isn't that well thought out. Just because someone isnt evil doesnt mean they lack power. And if you really want, im sure God could be evil if he really wanted to, but he chooses not to.

You need to realize that these, infinite capability things are dificult for humans to understand, because we live in a world where most things are finate. Just because you don't understand the logic behind it doesn't mean its contradictorily.

I supose if you feel like that's a good ground to stop considering god then more power to you.

From: gof

This type of threads seem stupid to me because it's always the same

I don't think anyone has even made any of the arguments that you mentioned here. It is not the same, and you are ignorantly labeling it. We are not at all talking about which idea seems more "likely" that's just stupid.

From: Harkonnen
A huge quote about the big bang

Look, im glad you like that quote, and may have even read it. But I don't like you reguritating what someone else said. You can reference it in a link, but you need to talk about it in your own words. Posting what you did not think up yourself is just lazy, and theres really no point arguing with it, because I don't know what parts you like or not. A quote bgger than what you say is a sure way to know it won't ever be read, and I'm holding to that.

So, are you saying there can be illogical things?

From: juufkk
So, are you saying there can be illogical things?

All things are illogical, otherwise the universe would not exist at all.

Actually, they've found his blanket in a cave..

Can i say what proof is there of god, to my knowledge theres non. Also i think the bible is just a story made up hundreds of years ago by a bored oldman/women and wasnt meant to be taken seriosly lol.

From: juufkk
So, are you saying there can be illogical things?

Thats a trick question, so I will try to cover all sides of it.

1. No. That is the ultimate answer. Everything , somehow, someway, (yes, scientifically etc) has a logical solution to it. Now, i don't know if their are limits to what the human mind can thing, but assuming an infinniate capacity to understand, then there is a logical explanation for everthing.

Now, its quite obvious that not everything right now has a logical explanation. Lots of things we dont know yet, such as where god came from, or where the first energy, or mater, came from. But just because we don't know the logic behind it, doesn't really make it illogical, up to your perspective I suppose.

2. Yes. Because there are things that I can not understand, and I think my capacity to understand is limited at the moment, or, at least not at its full potential. And untill it is, there will inevitable be things that apear illogical (although in truth, i know they are not).

I'm not saying that not knowing logic behind things makes them illogical but God can't square a circle.

Logically that you write here proves you exist. If you didn't it would be a paradox. But if there could be illogical things then you don't necessarily exist.

I am a christian and i believe that this belief can only be formed by personal experiences. For example, the existance of God for me is as simple as 1 + 1=2. But why does 1 + 1=2? Why can't 1 + 1=3? Well we answer it because of the basic laws of mathematics. Well some people, that answer isn't good enough. For me each takes an element of faith, and without faith you can't believe either. You have to have faith in God's existance, it is something you can't prove through any means. But you can provide evidance for his existance, but proving it is impossible.

From: luke
Can i say what proof is there of god, to my knowledge theres non. Also i think the bible is just a story made up hundreds of years ago by a bored oldman/women and wasnt meant to be taken seriosly lol.

I think you should have utilised your brain a bit more - the one which God gave you - and read the rest of this thread before posting your useless comments.

From: juufkk
I'm not saying that not knowing logic behind things makes them illogical but God can't square a circle.

Logically that you write here proves you exist. If you didn't it would be a paradox. But if there could be illogical things then you don't necessarily exist.

Cogito ergo sum, I doubt, therefor I think, therefor I am.

I think, there for I am.

I used to believe this is the only true thing I can be certain of,

but this is very good point.

What if the universe is not confined to logistics, if illogical-ness can exist…


you have truly opened my mind to human's inability to comprehend truly.


WE ARE ALL FALSE COMPREHENDING THE UNIVERSE!!!!

def. False comprehending- means you think you can comprehend something even though you really don't.

The possibility of the existence of illogicalness!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

—–

Thus adding the the trivialness and pointlessness of this conversation :)

(as shown in my previous arguments)

From: IceFire908
Cogito ergo sum, I doubt, therefor I think, therefor I am.

I think, there for I am.

I used to believe this is the only true thing I can be certain of,

but this is very good point.

What if the universe is not confined to logistics, if illogical-ness can exist…


you have truly opened my mind to human's inability to comprehend truly.


WE ARE ALL FALSE COMPREHENDING THE UNIVERSE!!!!

def. False comprehending- means you think you can comprehend something even though you really don't.

The possibility of the existence of illogicalness!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i fail to comprehend your argument…or was that the idea?

Did science invent sex? NO! Did science make porno mags? NO! So the only possible answer is God.

From: kingarabian
Did science invent sex? NO! Did science make porno mags? NO! So the only possible answer is God.

So God was finally proven, all thanks to sex and porn?

Nice try…

From: IceFire908
So God was finally proven, all thanks to sex and porn?

Nice try…

It pokes some fun, but it does state a fact.

A bit late to this topic, but its discussion and debate so it doesn't really matter.

I don't believe in God, or the Bible, I'm not religious, and I don't believe in some form of higher power. I'm atheist.

A lot of people say that the world is too finely tuned to be the work of nature, and there must be something behind it, but what a lot of people cannot comprehend is the scale of time.

Just image for a second what happens when you die, logically, if there was no God. You're dead. For eternity. For ever more, you won't have a life and you will just be still and non existing. It's almost impossible to image, as it's a scary thought. But then, think again. You've already been there, before you were born: you were non existent for who knows how long, yet here you are thinking what will happen once we die. You have no consciousness of that time, so it doesn't really bother you. It's the future that's scary, and the unknown. That's my first point.

Now think that the universe has been around for trillions of years, even before the big bang. The big bang didn't just happen and suddenly everything was there working in perfect order. It took trillions of years of trial and error by nature for the world to come around as it is.

Science can prove how long the universe has been around for, but these are all just theories made by imperfect humans. No one actually knows accurately how long we have been here for, or when the big bang happened. Who even knows what was there before the big bang? It's unproven, so you can't just say there must have been something else behind it all. It's like saying this fruit is not a banana, therefore it must be a magical apple. There are other posibilities, even if no one has thought of them yet.

People are scared of the unknown and need comfort. In all forms of religion, there is a hand to hold, someone else looking over us. To me, religion is just for the weak and scared. It's a way of feeling safe about what's coming. No one want's to be dead for eternity, and so they look to the only way they could still have a life after death: the super natural.

You say it cannot be complete randomness. Someone else thought of a metaphor to explain God, using ping pong balls. I'll use the same one to try and show you otherwise. Say you had 1000 ping pong balls all labelled 1 - 1000. You're blindfolded and asked to out them in ascending order. Seems impossible, right? But if you had enough time, you would probably be able to do it. The human mind just cannot comprehend this. The universe has had who knows how much time to get to where it is. Our time right now is just a tiny grain of sand in the entire ocean.

I'm a logical person, and looking at it from a logical point of view, God just seems impossible to me. It's just people are scared of the unknown and cannot comprehend how long the universe has actually been here.

Of course, my facts here are all theories again. God cannot be proved or disproved, but to me God is just a comforting hand for people who need it, and can only be "proved" because there are gaps in science.

No point in ripping my argument apart as I'm just stating what I think, and I only want you to read and consider what I'm saying.

Thanks

From: Daniel.Blaze
A bit late to this topic, but its discussion and debate so it doesn't really matter.

I don't believe in God, or the Bible, I'm not religious, and I don't believe in some form of higher power. I'm atheist.

A lot of people say that the world is too finely tuned to be the work of nature, and there must be something behind it, but what a lot of people cannot comprehend is the scale of time.

Just image for a second what happens when you die, logically, if there was no God. You're dead. For eternity. For ever more, you won't have a life and you will just be still and non existing. It's almost impossible to image, as it's a scary thought. But then, think again. You've already been there, before you were born: you were non existent for who knows how long, yet here you are thinking what will happen once we die. You have no consciousness of that time, so it doesn't really bother you. It's the future that's scary, and the unknown. That's my first point.

Now think that the universe has been around for trillions of years, even before the big bang. The big bang didn't just happen and suddenly everything was there working in perfect order. It took trillions of years of trial and error by nature for the world to come around as it is.

Science can prove how long the universe has been around for, but these are all just theories made by imperfect humans. No one actually knows accurately how long we have been here for, or when the big bang happened. Who even knows what was there before the big bang? It's unproven, so you can't just say there must have been something else behind it all. It's like saying this fruit is not a banana, therefore it must be a magical apple. There are other posibilities, even if no one has thought of them yet.

People are scared of the unknown and need comfort. In all forms of religion, there is a hand to hold, someone else looking over us. To me, religion is just for the weak and scared. It's a way of feeling safe about what's coming. No one want's to be dead for eternity, and so they look to the only way they could still have a life after death: the super natural.

You say it cannot be complete randomness. Someone else thought of a metaphor to explain God, using ping pong balls. I'll use the same one to try and show you otherwise. Say you had 1000 ping pong balls all labelled 1 - 1000. You're blindfolded and asked to out them in ascending order. Seems impossible, right? But if you had enough time, you would probably be able to do it. The human mind just cannot comprehend this. The universe has had who knows how much time to get to where it is. Our time right now is just a tiny grain of sand in the entire ocean.

I'm a logical person, and looking at it from a logical point of view, God just seems impossible to me. It's just people are scared of the unknown and cannot comprehend how long the universe has actually been here.

Of course, my facts here are all theories again. God cannot be proved or disproved, but to me God is just a comforting hand for people who need it, and can only be "proved" because there are gaps in science.

No point in ripping my argument apart as I'm just stating what I think, and I only want you to read and consider what I'm saying.

Thanks

Very, very logical.
However, I do believe in God.
But, you are pretty smart.

From: Daniel.Blaze
A bit late to this topic, but its discussion and debate so it doesn't really matter.

I don't believe in God, or the Bible, I'm not religious, and I don't believe in some form of higher power. I'm atheist.

A lot of people say that the world is too finely tuned to be the work of nature, and there must be something behind it, but what a lot of people cannot comprehend is the scale of time.

Just image for a second what happens when you die, logically, if there was no God. You're dead. For eternity. For ever more, you won't have a life and you will just be still and non existing. It's almost impossible to image, as it's a scary thought. But then, think again. You've already been there, before you were born: you were non existent for who knows how long, yet here you are thinking what will happen once we die. You have no consciousness of that time, so it doesn't really bother you. It's the future that's scary, and the unknown. That's my first point.

Now think that the universe has been around for trillions of years, even before the big bang. The big bang didn't just happen and suddenly everything was there working in perfect order. It took trillions of years of trial and error by nature for the world to come around as it is.

Science can prove how long the universe has been around for, but these are all just theories made by imperfect humans. No one actually knows accurately how long we have been here for, or when the big bang happened. Who even knows what was there before the big bang? It's unproven, so you can't just say there must have been something else behind it all. It's like saying this fruit is not a banana, therefore it must be a magical apple. There are other posibilities, even if no one has thought of them yet.

People are scared of the unknown and need comfort. In all forms of religion, there is a hand to hold, someone else looking over us. To me, religion is just for the weak and scared. It's a way of feeling safe about what's coming. No one want's to be dead for eternity, and so they look to the only way they could still have a life after death: the super natural.

You say it cannot be complete randomness. Someone else thought of a metaphor to explain God, using ping pong balls. I'll use the same one to try and show you otherwise. Say you had 1000 ping pong balls all labelled 1 - 1000. You're blindfolded and asked to out them in ascending order. Seems impossible, right? But if you had enough time, you would probably be able to do it. The human mind just cannot comprehend this. The universe has had who knows how much time to get to where it is. Our time right now is just a tiny grain of sand in the entire ocean.

I'm a logical person, and looking at it from a logical point of view, God just seems impossible to me. It's just people are scared of the unknown and cannot comprehend how long the universe has actually been here.

Of course, my facts here are all theories again. God cannot be proved or disproved, but to me God is just a comforting hand for people who need it, and can only be "proved" because there are gaps in science.

No point in ripping my argument apart as I'm just stating what I think, and I only want you to read and consider what I'm saying.

Thanks

That ping pong ball argument just doesn't work for me. We didn't say that it was impossible for nature to have done all this by itself, but we did say that the probability was so small, that we'd rather believe in something with a higher probability.

And just food for thought, the probability that you get the ping pong arrangement correct = (1/1000!), which is one hell of a small decimal, 50 calculators side by side wouldn't be enough. Now imagine the even tinier possibility that nature created the world…extremely close to 0.

Now think that the universe has been around for trillions of years,

universe is 13.7 billion years old.

And obviously if you beleive in the big bang you believe in good… there just can't be a small compressed ball of mass fitted at a tiny universe at one random point in time.

Most atheist would depend on string theory to explain the existance of the universe… Nature is much more like god created it…

Science can prove how long the universe has been around for, but these are all just theories made by imperfect humans.

These are not theorys… This is carbon dating, and works extremely well…

From: Santa_Clause
That ping pong ball argument just doesn't work for me. We didn't say that it was impossible for nature to have done all this by itself, but we did say that the probability was so small, that we'd rather believe in something with a higher probability.

And just food for thought, the probability that you get the ping pong arrangement correct = (1/1000!), which is one hell of a small decimal, 50 calculators side by side wouldn't be enough. Now imagine the even tinier possibility that nature created the world…extremely close to 0.

You are saying that a superhuman being who watches over us all constantly is more believable? O dear.

And as for your second point, you've just proved my point exactly. Your mind cannot comprehend that someone could order those ping pong balls. The universe has been in existence for so long, that it has had all the time in the world (excuse the pun) to be able to do this. Eventually with a lot of trial and error, it will occur. If you had billions of years to try to order those ping pong balls, eventually it would happen.

From: newbiezkid
universe is 13.7 billion years old.

And obviously if you beleive in the big bang you believe in good… there just can't be a small compressed ball of mass fitted at a tiny universe at one random point in time.

It took billions of years for the pressure, temperature and matter to become exactly correct to form our living conditions. Again, you are not comprehending the scale of time.

From: newbiezkid
These are not theorys… This is carbon dating, and works extremely well…

Everything is a theory.
People assume 2+2=4. And because so many people assume it, it's become "true." Of course, I'm not arguing and saying that i don't think 2+2=4, but i'm just trying to prove to you that it's a theory. If someone back when numbers were started said 2 + 2 = 5 and 4 doesn't exist, then that would be what we know today.

Carbon dating is a theory. As is all of science. As is God.

Lastly, you all assume that the universe had to be created. Whatever stopped it from being there all along, with time just going in a circle? How does our number system work? 1, 2, 3, 4…. 100 … 1000000 … infinite …. - infinite … -100000 … -100 .. -4, -3, -2, -1, 0. O look. Back to where we started…

Time is not a constant sily! So don't think of terms of years when things were created. It's fairly complicated to explain but is worthwhile reading it on wikapedia.

And if nature all created the universe you can't explain the massive amount of helium that was produced at the beginning of all time. Accordding to scientists, if the universe started as just a mass of hydrogen not enough helium could be produced for the universe and the sun no matter what what length in time. Thats how the big bang theory came, because with enough energy you can get the right amount of helium by extreme pressures and energy…

The big bang also explained the exspansion of the universe.

From: newbiezkid
These are not theorys… This is carbon dating, and works extremely well…

Uhm? They carbon dated a piece of bread and they reported it said it was like 5,000 years old.

Radiocarbon dating is used to test the age of different things, not just bread.

Radioactive decay may just occur in bread in a different way. There are different measurements and scales when doing radiocarbon dating and the people probably just got it completely wrong.

Or the entire thing is a huge conspiracy. I think I'm gonna get my ID changed to ConspiracyMan.

http://godisimaginary.com/

I'm a Christian.. but that site made me think about some things and now I don't know what to think.

From: NightBlade
http://godisimaginary.com/

I'm a Christian.. but that site made me think about some things and now I don't know what to think.

Just ask yourself how can/cannot a deity such as God exist. I stopped believing in a god when I was 10, because I realized how impossible a god can be. If you choose to worship him fine, just don't do it without first evaluating the possibilities of one.

From: Daniel.Blaze
You are saying that a superhuman being who watches over us all constantly is more believable? O dear.

And as for your second point, you've just proved my point exactly. Your mind cannot comprehend that someone could order those ping pong balls. The universe has been in existence for so long, that it has had all the time in the world (excuse the pun) to be able to do this. Eventually with a lot of trial and error, it will occur. If you had billions of years to try to order those ping pong balls, eventually it would happen.



It took billions of years for the pressure, temperature and matter to become exactly correct to form our living conditions. Again, you are not comprehending the scale of time.



Everything is a theory.
People assume 2+2=4. And because so many people assume it, it's become "true." Of course, I'm not arguing and saying that i don't think 2+2=4, but i'm just trying to prove to you that it's a theory. If someone back when numbers were started said 2 + 2 = 5 and 4 doesn't exist, then that would be what we know today.

Carbon dating is a theory. As is all of science. As is God.

Lastly, you all assume that the universe had to be created. Whatever stopped it from being there all along, with time just going in a circle? How does our number system work? 1, 2, 3, 4…. 100 … 1000000 … infinite …. - infinite … -100000 … -100 .. -4, -3, -2, -1, 0. O look. Back to where we started…

You make very good points. The funny thing is though, it seems that you refer to nature as a "being". Nature created life through trial and error. Nature had time to get the temperatures and pressures correct. Nature is responsible for the world that we now live in.

Now I ask you this. What is compelling nature to create life? Why is nature doing these things? Wouldnt there be a driving force behind it?

It seems pretty simple to swap out the "nature" with "god".

I'm a firm Christian.

But some things I've collected from reportings:

The Earth started as a fireball. It cooled, tiny organisms that were created from the transportation of craters, etc. were living. They grew as the earth became less sulfurous, etc. They grew, mutated, and created organisms as we know them today.

But, as I said. This is just one theory.

I'm Greek Orthodox.

And don't wanna believe in 20 other dimensions (string theory) just to become atheists…

Hot Damn. how can people believe in him?? if he is a god and he controls this world why doesn't he kill all the criminals? why are there criminals?if he made us then why did he put in the criminal aspect of us?look. shredderbeam on sythe said this once(roughly)"i can say 2+2 is 23 and i am not wrong because you have no proof it doesn't everyone believes it is 4" this applies with god just because millions believe in him doesn't mean he is real also.the one they call jesus why did he die? god controls everything? surely he could say "nah mate jesus aint dieing but your sins are all forgiven" and finally if god is so nice and helps you in life why did he create cancer? So cop that u fuckin idiots

[QUOTE=OLDSCHOOLMACRO'ER;457533]Hot Damn. how can people believe in him?? if he is a god and he controls this world why doesn't he kill all the criminals? why are there criminals?if he made us then why did he put in the criminal aspect of us?look. shredderbeam on sythe said this once(roughly)"i can say 2+2 is 23 and i am not wrong because you have no proof it doesn't everyone believes it is 4" this applies with god just because millions believe in him doesn't mean he is real also.the one they call jesus why did he die? god controls everything? surely he could say "nah mate jesus aint dieing but your sins are all forgiven" and finally if god is so nice and helps you in life why did he create cancer? So cop that u fuckin idiots

okay well i dont believe in got but you have to respect everyones believes wether you like it or not

and remember what people have said before
apparently god put us on this planet to test us and see if we were good enough to go to heaven

i dont believe in god but if he did exist then that is why he hasnt killed all the criminals

besides they also say that god loves everyone no matter what they have done
so if he loves everyone (including the criminals) then why would he kill them?

~shut

He will kill all the criminals. Why should he do anything under your accord?

The first part of Zeitgeist —> Stated that Jesus/God was probably made up by the Church.

If you believe it, I appreciate that. I have nothing against religious people. Its just when they knock on my door trying to convert me that I get annoyed.

Open a religous book and they might answer your questions about miracles.

-Bible //Christianity
-koran //Islam
-Torah //Judaisim

Probably those three most populated religions in the world try youtube they might have some vid's of miracles~ We need to be spiritual that is how humans are we have to have something to turn to in problems So if i tell you God is true otherwise we wouldn't need to live spiritually with emotions that is why someone had to create use~

Rather not get into things~LOL

http://www.villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24402

Got alot more way too tired. Let's put it this way, in short, I am no idiot, and i don't believe what i believe what i believe because of faith alone. I believe because science points to it. If you think otherwise, come out of the age of charles darwin and understand these three facts at least:

- the fossil record does not, nor has it ever helped darwin, which he said it would. Archeopterix was the closest fossil and it actually disproved it in the end.

- Darwin lived 100 years ago, and knew nothing about any DNA, cells, etc. He also questioned his theory numerous times, which you would know if you had read origin of the species (if you have great :)). He dismissed these all by saying that the future scientific discoveries would support it.

- Remember its the Theory of evolution. Not the law of evolution. So stop treating it like that. Science has in no way proved that or we wouldn't be having this debate.

Every single prominent scientist including kepler, newton, capernicous, and pythagorus, experts in all of their fields believed in a God, so your not stupid if you do. Including over 200 scientists who came up with a 127 page review of the problems with the theory of evolution. The truth of the matter is Darwin discovered micro evolution which is the evolution within a species. That is not refuted by any.


Remember these, soon I will post anything you need Yakman or anyone else.



By the way, looked two posts up. In short, GOd doesn't kill criminal etc, because he gave everyone a second chance by dying on the cross. Everyone should die and go to hell. Also he gave man the ability to decide for himself when he created. When he created man he gave him the ability to choose so they wouldn't be robots. So technically in the end God does get the last laugh or so to say, but he does give you a choice. that is your purpose in life is to make the right choice, kind of like a trial in a way. You can't kill the person charged just because they step in the courtroom accused of murder. He is a just God. So "cop on that"

From: pwnaz0r
http://www.villavu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24402

Got alot more way too tired. Let's put it this way, in short, I am no idiot, and i don't believe what i believe what i believe because of faith alone. I believe because science points to it. If you think otherwise, come out of the age of charles darwin and understand these three facts at least:

- the fossil record does not, nor has it ever helped darwin, which he said it would. Archeopterix was the closest fossil and it actually disproved it in the end.

- Darwin lived 100 years ago, and knew nothing about any DNA, cells, etc. He also questioned his theory numerous times, which you would know if you had read origin of the species (if you have great :)). He dismissed these all by saying that the future scientific discoveries would support it.

- Remember its the Theory of evolution. Not the law of evolution. So stop treating it like that. Science has in no way proved that or we wouldn't be having this debate.

Every single prominent scientist including kepler, newton, capernicous, and pythagorus, experts in all of their fields believed in a God, so your not stupid if you do. Including over 200 scientists who came up with a 127 page review of the problems with the theory of evolution. The truth of the matter is Darwin discovered micro evolution which is the evolution within a species. That is not refuted by any.


Remember these, soon I will post anything you need Yakman or anyone else.



By the way, looked two posts up. In short, GOd doesn't kill criminal etc, because he gave everyone a second chance by dying on the cross. Everyone should die and go to hell. Also he gave man the ability to decide for himself when he created. When he created man he gave him the ability to choose so they wouldn't be robots. So technically in the end God does get the last laugh or so to say, but he does give you a choice. that is your purpose in life is to make the right choice, kind of like a trial in a way. You can't kill the person charged just because they step in the courtroom accused of murder. He is a just God. So "cop on that"

some parts i completely agree with. It bothers me when people use law and theory interchangeably…they ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT the same thing. Evolution is a theory, even though i do believe in it. Theory's have solid scientific evidence but most things that many people consider laws are actually theories. Big Bang for example.

Anyways back to what my post is really about. I am a Christian (Lutheran) and I also believe in evolution. Many of you are going WTF? right now but I will explain. Many of you will still be going WTF?, but this is what i believe.

As any of you who actually read the Bible know, God is not bound by time and space. This usually blows peoples minds, but it is what the Bible says. And as many of you non-religious types you usually point your finger at Genesis when God creates the Earth in 7th days. You guys are all like "OH NO HE DIDN…THATS NOT EVOLUTION!!! EVOLUTION IS LAW!!!!" which you are wrong on multiple points. Because I believe that yes He did (and evolution is not law). Going back to my previous statement about God not being bound by time and space, what is a day to God? A being that has no perception of time. I believe that he only split it up into days because He didn't know himself. He just split up what he did into 7 days to simplify matters for humans. It could have taken millions upon millions of years to make humans, but time has no effect on God. Simply put, Genesis in my opinion is true on that point.

/discuss

Of course, a chosen few do hold to your view. However let me state this fact. I have not seen one evidence for evolution that has not been dismantled. I believe in every fact that I personally deem the evidence is sufficient, INCLUDING THE BIG BANG. Modern theists most likely will hold to the view that the Big Bang did occur. However, if you have studied closely this information, you will know its that simple. Antimatter has been never been composed (as far as I know, I have heard it is, but have never seen any proof as well as on many thesaurus's, reading books on it, etc). Matter has been destroyed and created into energy, that space is not composed of antimatter however (or space without matter). However, even if I am wrong on this point, which I believe I am right, it would not refute the fact that a big bang doesn't just happen it needs a cause.

"In the beginning, God created light"

I believe that as awesome as God is, that is His work creating it through the Big Bang.

Let me come out and say I used to be an evolutionist. But like so many others, after reading "The Icons of Evolution", my views were dismanteled and I found the truth.

Let me go ahead and make my thread.

So pwnaz0r basically you have trouble accepting that something so complex as life could come about purely by chance?

From: Wizzup?

So in other words, you're asking for God to come tell you himself that he is real?

"I has a baseball"

Lmao… 'has'…

:sasmokin:

"God has real" "Oh yea prove it!" *God comes in, turns your left arm into like gold* "WHAT'S GOOD NIGGAA?!!!" "OH SHIT!!!"

From: Wizzup?

Haha funny. Where did you find that

I guess I'm that guy who can't prove it.

Not to be rude, but I'm the one with more evidence. I daresay if we engauged in an arguement, which I would be happy to do, you would not be thinking that way. Everything I believe is scientifically proven and completely against evolution. And if you would like to try me on for size, simply pm me. We'll make it a date :)

From my point of view, you are the one's who don't understand scientific facts, so its even :)

as far as i understand of your argument, you dont believe in anything that scientifically proven. You believe in God, whereas, your whole argument is based on disproving evolution. They're closely related, but disproving one does not prove the other.

Even then, you haven't disproved anything. You are just taking information that you learned from certain books and calling that fact. Its as much speculation (albeit probably with lots of logical and scientific research) as the other books that disagree and argue for evolution (that also probably have much of the same well researched ideas).

From: pwnaz0r
Haha funny. Where did you find that

I guess I'm that guy who can't prove it.

Not to be rude, but I'm the one with more evidence. I daresay if we engauged in an arguement, which I would be happy to do, you would not be thinking that way. Everything I believe is scientifically proven and completely against evolution. And if you would like to try me on for size, simply pm me. We'll make it a date :)

From my point of view, you are the one's who don't understand scientific facts, so its even :)

So you basically invented your own science, then. I don't mind you doing so (and I don't mind you believing you are right, everyone needs something to live for after all.), but don't come here telling the current science is wrong, or that I misunderstand it.

From the scientific point of view, you are the one who is wrong.
You are however, free to believe you are not. A lot of religious people live and think that way. Not implying you are religious, didn't bother to read the entire thread.

More evidence? I read through some of your posts, and all I can see if stuff you believe to be true. No stuff that actually correspond with the current scientific laws. Unless you, however, make up your own Scientific laws.

I've tried to tell you this before… Most of the "proof" for both sides is just guesses and/or happy accidents. We still don't know if there is an atom or not, and we do not know if God exists. If I took and random bunch of facts I could find a way to prove anything on the "you don't know it doesn't exist" principal.

From: Dan Cardin
as far as i understand of your argument, you dont believe in anything that scientifically proven. You believe in God, whereas, your whole argument is based on disproving evolution. They're closely related, but disproving one does not prove the other.

Even then, you haven't disproved anything. You are just taking information that you learned from certain books and calling that fact. Its as much speculation (albeit probably with lots of logical and scientific research) as the other books that disagree and argue for evolution (that also probably have much of the same well researched ideas).

Actually it does yes. I actually spend most of my time disproving evolution, because nobody ever lets me prove anything.

Ok facts about the universe I stand on for my beliefs:

If you don't know what these are (talking to anyone who claims they do know about evolution, not the innocent bystander :) ), then, and this is in no way meant to be prideful, but as they say "stand down", and let the people who have devoted at least some time and attention to this the "stand". I think it is unfair for you to side if you have no knowledge of these things, considering I have devoted 2 years of my life (on the side of course), studying and concluding.

- Fine Tuned Universe, if you don't know the facts for this, google. There are too many to list here, however there will be one on my thread.
- Most scientists of both parties conclude that the big bang occured and everything we know of was created. Matter, energy, etc was all created. I choose to belief the ludicris statement and mindset that it happened by itself. This brings us to the watch in the desert. No one looks at that watch and says "Well the sun must have melted the sand to create glass and over millions of years it was formed perfectly and then the mechanisms"etc, etc. No you say, wow what a beautiful watch, I wonder who made it. Its rediculous (misspelled). How much more mechanisms does the universe have, more than 500 billion times more.
- The Cambrian explosion. Where did all those life forms come from. Its like if we compare darwins tree of life to a foot ball field. On the 10 yardline, there is one animal, on the 20 y-l, there is 2… then we get the 90 yardline and suddenly there and a million…
- Human conscienceness in itself. Where did morals come from, who determines right from wrong..
- Irreducible Complexity


There must be about at least 10 other major things but I won't list them here. And on top of that, let's cut to the chase.. In two years of study of the subject from both angles, I have not found one scientific fact that is true about evolution not one. The fossil record supporting it has been disproved, if you think it hasn't you should claim ignorance now, because you haven't been keeping up to date. And on top of that, I have seen so many experiments conducted wrong (Miller - Urey experiment), and so many lies by scientists (Heckels drawings). AND ON TOP OF THAT, I have not found one person who has adequatly researched it as far as me, IN MY OPINION. If you are out there, please step forward. AND ON TOP OF THAT, this is personal for me. I see God's action in my own life. My family was recently struggling financial. We prayed for the longest time for how we would get the money to keep me in school. What happened? My dad's bank had been in a bind with the US economy down and since he hung in there, they sent him a check with just enough money to send me there the next year, about 2 days before. You may call this coinicidence but I have a thousand more and not kidding a thousand. When you interact with God on such a level as this, it is impossible to tell yourself he is not real, and that's why I'm so passionate about this, because I want others to understand what I see.

EDIT: I absolutely get annoyed because so many evolutionists have a bias that theists have no reason for believing what they believe and that science absolutely proves evolution, no exceptions. WRONG

From: pwnaz0r
Actually it does yes. I actually spend most of my time disproving evolution, because nobody ever lets me prove anything.

Ok facts about the universe I stand on for my beliefs:

If you don't know what these are (talking to anyone who claims they do know about evolution, not the innocent bystander :) ), then, and this is in no way meant to be prideful, but as they say "stand down", and let the people who have devoted at least some time and attention to this the "stand". I think it is unfair for you to side if you have no knowledge of these things, considering I have devoted 2 years of my life (on the side of course), studying and concluding.

- Fine Tuned Universe, if you don't know the facts for this, google. There are too many to list here, however there will be one on my thread.
- Most scientists of both parties conclude that the big bang occured and everything we know of was created. Matter, energy, etc was all created. I choose to belief the ludicris statement and mindset that it happened by itself. This brings us to the watch in the desert. No one looks at that watch and says "Well the sun must have melted the sand to create glass and over millions of years it was formed perfectly and then the mechanisms"etc, etc. No you say, wow what a beautiful watch, I wonder who made it. Its rediculous (misspelled). How much more mechanisms does the universe have, more than 500 billion times more.
- The Cambrian explosion. Where did all those life forms come from. Its like if we compare darwins tree of life to a foot ball field. On the 10 yardline, there is one animal, on the 20 y-l, there is 2… then we get the 90 yardline and suddenly there and a million…
- Human conscienceness in itself. Where did morals come from, who determines right from wrong..
- Irreducible Complexity


There must be about at least 10 other major things but I won't list them here. And on top of that, let's cut to the chase.. In two years of study of the subject from both angles, I have not found one scientific fact that is true about evolution not one. The fossil record supporting it has been disproved, if you think it hasn't you should claim ignorance now, because you haven't been keeping up to date. And on top of that, I have seen so many experiments conducted wrong (Miller - Urey experiment), and so many lies by scientists (Heckels drawings). AND ON TOP OF THAT, I have not found one person who has adequatly researched it as far as me, IN MY OPINION. If you are out there, please step forward. AND ON TOP OF THAT, this is personal for me. I see God's action in my own life. My family was recently struggling financial. We prayed for the longest time for how we would get the money to keep me in school. What happened? My dad's bank had been in a bind with the US economy down and since he hung in there, they sent him a check with just enough money to send me there the next year, about 2 days before. You may call this coinicidence but I have a thousand more and not kidding a thousand. When you interact with God on such a level as this, it is impossible to tell yourself he is not real, and that's why I'm so passionate about this, because I want others to understand what I see.

EDIT: I absolutely get annoyed because so many evolutionists have a bias that theists have no reason for believing what they believe and that science absolutely proves evolution, no exceptions. WRONG

Evolution does not just consist out of theories on the initial creation of the earth. I think those theories are far from accurate, because we simply don't know enough about the universe yet. Believing god made it however, is in my opinion ignorant and will never lead you to the real answer, which you will able to proof with facts. I choose not to believe any of these theories, as the one is ever more implausible than the other.

What I meant is that, you can't simply say something is true because some book claims it to be that way. I wouldn't even take it from a scientist, unless more than the majority of the scientist agrees with him (or her), and the scientist can come up with enough realistic arguments and facts.

About your personal experience, let me just say this.
If God exists, I find him very selfish helping you, instead of all the hungry children and grown-up's in Africa. It is plain unjust, and wrong.
Doesn't everyone deserve a fine life?

If God should only help people who pray/worship to him, I find him very selfish, and furthermore, hypocritical.

If an atheist lives a good live, does not rape, hurt or harm people, why does he have to go to this place called the 'hell'? Because he did not 'pray'?
Why can people (in some western-beliefs) donate some money to the church, pray once and pay off all their sins? Why is it very regular for priests to do "funny" things with children?
Why doesn't this God person strike the persons whom we all consider, bad. (Murderers, Thieves, Rapists, etc.) Why does this 'God' person let them wander around and go on with their daily business?

I could go on, but I won't. I think I've made my point, at least, for now.

From: IceFire908
So in other words, you're asking for God to come tell you himself that he is real?

Yes. And explain why he let's so many people suffer and die, while others live a life in luxury. (I call any house with water and electricity luxury.)

From: Wizzup?
Evolution does not just consist out of theories on the initial creation of the earth. I think those theories are far from accurate, because we simply don't know enough about the universe yet. Believing god made it however, is in my opinion ignorant and will never lead you to the real answer, which you will able to proof with facts. I choose not to believe any of these theories, as the one is ever more implausible than the other.

What I meant is that, you can't simply say something is true because some book claims it to be that way. I wouldn't even take it from a scientist, unless more than the majority of the scientist agrees with him (or her), and the scientist can come up with enough realistic arguments and facts.

About your personal experience, let me just say this.
If God exists, I find him very selfish helping you, instead of all the hungry children and grown-up's in Africa. It is plain unjust, and wrong.
Doesn't everyone deserve a fine life?

If God should only help people who pray/worship to him, I find him very selfish, and furthermore, hypocritical.

If an atheist lives a good live, does not rape, hurt or harm people, why does he have to go to this place called the 'hell'? Because he did not 'pray'?
Why can people (in some western-beliefs) donate some money to the church, pray once and pay off all their sins? Why is it very regular for priests to do "funny" things with children?
Why doesn't this God person strike the persons whom we all consider, bad. (Murderers, Thieves, Rapists, etc.) Why does this 'God' person let them wander around and go on with their daily business?

I could go on, but I won't. I think I've made my point, at least, for now.



Yes. And explain why he let's so many people suffer and die, while others live a life in luxury. (I call any house with water and electricity luxury.)

God is in fact a jealous God, and has a right to be selfish. This is a hard point to explain but think about it. For humans, yes selfishness is wrong, but not God. He created everything. You are basing God's character on human standards, which is completely out of line, you are completely ignoring all other points and are in general basing your beliefs on morals. where did you get those??? Accordign to darwin, "SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST". According to atheists, or evolutionists (maybe not all atheists), let them die! survival of the fittest. I believe pain is God's megaphone to the world. It's not unfair for to be selfish because everything is his. It's actually a quite hard concept to grasp unless you accept that there is a God. The fault in atheists, or why they will burn in hell, or because they think that they are just as good as God. They say, hey I don't need a God, because in my imperfect ways, I can explain a God, as they haven't! God made one rule, that man must accept him, and what did man do? complain…complain…complain… even when they would not even be here to complain without him. We are imperfect is the main point. God is a just God, and if you just obey Him, you will be fine. Also, those people in Africa, thats not God's fault it's ours. He gave us the commandment to give to the poor, and us the commandment to take care of your neighbor. How can we do that with a world so cold. Which brings us to just one of athiests circular reasonings.

People starving —> God's fault —> I shouldn't believe in him —> I shouldn't do what he says –> People starving still.

God is not a genie in a bottle so to say. He also must abide by his own rules

Point being, stop blaming God for everything, we did this by ourselves. When you play the game of the universe with God involved, its a whole different set of rules. God has a right to be jealous, and we all deserve to go to Hell. He has been gracious to give us a second chance. We did this to ourselves, not God.

EDIT: I am ashamed of the catholic churchs behavior and beliefs, however this is only an arguement for Intellegent Design, you cannot group all religions as one.

From: pwnaz0r
God is in fact a jealous God, and has a right to be selfish. This is a hard point to explain but think about it. For humans, yes selfishness is wrong, but not God. He created everything. You are basing God's character on human standards, which is completely out of line, you are completely ignoring all other points and are in general basing your beliefs on morals. where did you get those??? Accordign to darwin, "SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST". According to atheists, or evolutionists (maybe not all atheists), let them die! survival of the fittest. I believe pain is God's megaphone to the world. It's not unfair for to be selfish because everything is his. It's actually a quite hard concept to grasp unless you accept that there is a God. The fault in atheists, or why they will burn in hell, or because they think that they are just as good as God. They say, hey I don't need a God, because in my imperfect ways, I can explain a God, as they haven't! God made one rule, that man must accept him, and what did man do? complain…complain…complain… even when they would not even be here to complain without him. We are imperfect is the main point. God is a just God, and if you just obey Him, you will be fine. Also, those people in Africa, thats not God's fault it's ours. He gave us the commandment to give to the poor, and us the commandment to take care of your neighbor. How can we do that with a world so cold. Which brings us to just one of athiests circular reasonings.

Okay. So, how do you know God made one rule? How do you know God cares about you? How do you know God wants us to obey him? How do you know God is good, how can you even compare him to humans?
You could just as easily tell me God invented tea, because there is simply no proof whatsoever, that supports what you just said.
The bible? Written by humans. Flawed, and has been changed (partially rewritten) many times through history. So, you could say that the Human Mind invented God.

From: pwnaz0r
EDIT: I am ashamed of the catholic churchs behavior and beliefs, however this is only an arguement for Intellegent Design, you cannot group all religions as one.

Which I never did. (in some western-beliefs)

From: pwnaz0r
People starving —> God's fault —> I shouldn't believe in him —> I shouldn't do what he says –> People starving still.

God is not a genie in a bottle so to say. He also must abide by his own rules

Point being, stop blaming God for everything, we did this by ourselves. When you play the game of the universe with God involved, its a whole different set of rules. God has a right to be jealous, and we all deserve to go to Hell. He has been gracious to give us a second chance. We did this to ourselves, not God.

After reading this, I am convinced that I will not be able to convince you of anything religion related at all. You can make up a nice story in your post, but you back it up with nothing, nil. You simply write down what you think, believe or something that has been written by humans. (God's only rule…?) Which is fine though, as long as you can live happily with those thoughts. There won't be anything after this live, anyway.

I am done. This leads (me) to nowhere, and I am only wasting my time writing these posts. ;)
EDIT: I believe God has a female-like shape. Why is this abstract creature always referred to as 'He'? Does God have a penis?
EDIT2: I enjoyed reading your posts and opinion, I just don't agree with them. :)

You say that "it's God and therefor you are basing your accusations on nothing because you are thinking like a human and cannot comprehend God" and then you go on to defend him and talk about what God wants and how God loves you. If we cannot comprehend how God thinks and what God wants then how can you do anything "in the name of God" an whatnot because you really have no idea what God wants because since you believe "he wants" to give us free will he will not interfere. Which is another contradiction since people thank him every day for helping them in one way or another.

are in general basing your beliefs on morals.

as are you. Your morals are based upon what the Church tells you. It has been drilled into you since birth. what makes the Bible a valid, factual book?

The only reason that Christianity is a valid religion is because it has people backing it up. Most people wouldnt even consider Christianity if it only had 10 people practicing it. I tried explaining this to my mom. That if Pastafarianism was the most prominent religion in the world and that her parents were Pastafarians, then she also would (very likely) be a Pastafarian. That she would completely disregard Christianity because it was a silly made up religion. She disagreed and told me that God would make sure she was a Christian and that she was destined to be one. People are brought up that way.

I know you are much less…biased i guess i would say…than her, but thats how many people think. and now that i read this third part i find that it doesnt really have all that much of a point :p, but ill leave it, because it took me a while to write and i think it still serves a purpose :).

EDIT: Wizzup is saying what i said in my first paragraph =D.

I liked talking about the scientific side of religion much much more…

My religion is solid and we all sorta believe in the exact same things. The Catholic church did muck up heaps think about the first crusade. What they did to trick all the knights into going to battle against the muslims. And in the bible itself Jesus said "you must love your enemy". So that kinda made the whole crusade pointless in terms of religion. So actually I think religion has caused more wars than it has resolved them.

There are many things science can't explaine but science is still as effective as ever and is explaining so much every day.

Never take away the possibility that god exists though.

I feel like I'm way too uneducated for this conversation.. :rolleyes: But…

I always look at science like this: We always peel back the current layer of science and try to prove how it occurs, why it occurs, etc. But, we never have found the origin of all these things. The Big Bang; did it just pop out of nowhere? The human brain; where do our thoughts come from?

Now I believe that science is true. I mean, we have pretty well proved a lot of "life's mysteries". However, I doubt that science will ever come to point where it can define the origin of something. The only origin seems to be: God :)

Just my 2 cents…

Someone explain to me the idea of the 'soul', and how evolutionists can account for it? Scientists have created clones, but they cannot clone the human soul. They don't even know what keeps the skin moist, and they admit it's the working of the soul. Tell me, then, how God can not be existent,

From: Wizzup?
Yes. And explain why he let's so many people suffer and die, while others live a life in luxury. (I call any house with water and electricity luxury.)

idk, well for starters : why do you assume God even gives a fuck? you really think God cares if some insignificant humans think their lifes are unfair?

Just curious man.

From: Infintry001
I feel like I'm way too uneducated for this conversation.. :rolleyes: But…

I always look at science like this: We always peel back the current layer of science and try to prove how it occurs, why it occurs, etc. But, we never have found the origin of all these things. The Big Bang; did it just pop out of nowhere? The human brain; where do our thoughts come from
Just my 2 cents…

The idea of the big bang started when we figured there was to much helium in the sun for the universe just to be created by a massive cloud of hydrogen. So something with enough energy could create all that helium and thats when we came up with the idea of the big bang…

But if the Big Bang was the creation of the universe, what was there beforehand that could make it happen?

Thats were god comes in, and don't think as time as a constant.

Weird how everytime I say something, no-one answers.

Are you trying to say… If I destroy myself but someone recreates me exactly the same as I was before, I wouldn't be myself or it wouldn't feel like it?

From: newbiezkid
Are you trying to say… If I destroy myself but someone recreates me exactly the same as I was before, I wouldn't be myself or it wouldn't feel like it?

No…I want to know how scientists believe that humans have a soul, yet they believe this soul was also created by science alone, and without God.

Link me up to where you found this.

From: newbiezkid
Link me up to where you found this.

Don't tell me you're denying the existence of a soul.

I want to know where you found that theoritcal physicist believe in the soul. Im not denying it.

Scientists as scientists cannot believe in the soul. Its not possible to have one (scientificly).

However, I'm sure that scientists as normal people surely believe in the soul =)

That's what I always thought is strange about science. It can't prove things that everyone knows is there. They can't prove how thought works, why we feel emotion, etc.

From: newbiezkid
I want to know where you found that theoritcal physicist believe in the soul. Im not denying it.

It was in a book, the name of which I can't recall.

From: Wizzup?
Okay. So, how do you know God made one rule? How do you know God cares about you? How do you know God wants us to obey him? How do you know God is good, how can you even compare him to humans?
You could just as easily tell me God invented tea, because there is simply no proof whatsoever, that supports what you just said.
The bible? Written by humans. Flawed, and has been changed (partially rewritten) many times through history. So, you could say that the Human Mind invented God.



Which I never did. (in some western-beliefs)



After reading this, I am convinced that I will not be able to convince you of anything religion related at all. You can make up a nice story in your post, but you back it up with nothing, nil. You simply write down what you think, believe or something that has been written by humans. (God's only rule…?) Which is fine though, as long as you can live happily with those thoughts. There won't be anything after this live, anyway.

I am done. This leads (me) to nowhere, and I am only wasting my time writing these posts. ;)
EDIT: I believe God has a female-like shape. Why is this abstract creature always referred to as 'He'? Does God have a penis?
EDIT2: I enjoyed reading your posts and opinion, I just don't agree with them. :)

As do I :). However, whenever we go from scientific fact to moral things like everything you are asking, doesn't that mean we are focusing on GOd's essence and being. I will admit not to know everything about Him, however, I do not think minds are fully capable of comprehending everything because we are all comfined by our own minds limits.

However, In my opinion, and just be honest, not prideful. Are you not up against a wall because you are not stating any scientific facts to back up anything nor refuting any of mine, you are just contemplating things about God's nature with me, which I get all my reasoning from the Bible. However, If you would like to discuss this, we can. I however am just making a case for a creator, not neccissarily that my view is right.

Yes humans wrote the Bible, but God influenced every single word. The Bible has never been partially rewritten. Parts have been taken out, during a meeting of over 500 common theists. However, when this meeting occured they translated the Bible from Greek (or latin :P one of the two), into english. All 350 of them came within 5 words or so throughout the whole Bible. Now think of how long the Bible is, can you really believe that 350 people all did this and came within 5 words (and the 5 words were not even significant, liek the)

I personally know that God cares because of what the Bible says (which He did influence, he would not let His word be corrupted. Remember that very Godly men wrote the Bible.) and because of Jesus, who did die on the cross and did raise. I can prove that by a few reasons, but you will actually have to use reason. It might not be as strong an arguement as I have for I.D., but it holds for me, because I was already past the point I knew there was a creator when I started looking at religions. So I looked within them and this was the strongest. However, I will not discuss that here on the thread, seeing as whenever you go from being a Intellegent Designist, to a Christian, alot of people jump on you. So if you want those reasons, just for knowledge why I do believe in Christianity, feel free to PM me

EDIT: I also know God cares because of the example I gave earlier and many more. Use knowledge, my friend. Why would He create us if he didn't want us there. If He was going to hate us, he might as well not create us at all.


EDIT 2: Dan, I have to say that I actually did laugh at the second half of your post. It is so biased in one direction and it most certainly is not beacked up with any facts and misinterprets my whole thought basis and religion.

However, I do think Inifitry has the idea :)

REPLY to DAN (sorry for double post, didn't think it would be a huge deal, just want to seperate responses)

I did not say that we cannot comprehend God at all, I just said things like eternity. Man did not create Infinity. He did not, the idea has always been there, where did it come from. As far as you and I know, it has always been there. It is in time, it is in the number line, going one way, going the negative way, and going every single number in between. Can you and I really comprehend what that means? No, we cannot. Whenever I think of being in heaven forever, or being anywhere forever, its really actually hard to comprehend, just try it.

So basically here is what yours and mines arguement (dan) has looked like:

- You asked for scientific proofs, I gave you them.
- I asked you for one thing true about evolution, you replied it was a theory.
- You start to question the actual religious side of this, which is very sticky, because when you don't even believe in a God and you go here, I hate it, because you always can find something wrong with it, and I have to explain that you have to believe in a God first to understand why. Its a really tight spot, not that we don't have the information, but because we reply to it in reference to a God, which is the answer we believe, and you say well I don't believe there is a God, so that can't be true.
- I have seen you repeated use circular reasoning.

Look at all the evidence, my friend, where does it point? Think of all the scientific points I gave you. Irreducible complexity, fine tunings and such. let's get back to the science part here, and once you establish that there is even a possiblity for a God, then we can discuss things like morals and such. We are officially focusing on scientific proofs only, which is what you claim backs up your theory and the only thing you operate by anyway.

Which brings me to another question, why do you (and Wizzup) feel the need to try to question God's character? I though science backed up your theory? It seems to me, and probably all the other creationalists involved, that you are running out of scientific evidence, which is what you claim drives your mindset, so you are desperate and have to ask things about God's nature that we are not really capable of understanding.


ONE LAST THING TO WIZZUP AND DAN:

Why doesn't God just let us comprehend Him? If we could, what would make Him higher than us? Ever single time I think of God, and things that He can do that I can't understand, I say "WOW what an amazing God". It is a constant reminder that God has authority over us and is not equal to us. That is your answer, do not reply to it, because we are only focusing on science now.

To any one who wants scientific proof or things to answer for me, http://www.srl-forums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=464300&postcount=7

as i said, the second part wasnt meant to be factual or conclusive. I just meant it as an example of what i think many Christians think and have as reasoning for their belief in God. Along with the fact that i am very bad at explaining things, especially in writing.

Though i think that pretty much anything that you can come up with to "prove" that Jesus even existed, let alone die on the cross, will be fairly biased as well.

No, I try my best not to be biased, and I comment on it when I am. These reasons, are not biased. They have to do with witnesses that saw him, reasons the roman guards would want to keep it quiet, all the stories about the body, because it is not and will never be in the tomb, so there are many stories about it. I prove all of those stories wrong. It is then your decision to decide if the man, who did in fact perform miraculous works, whether you think he is God or not,for it is not just in the Bible, and all that stuff I said together combined means that he did arise from the cross. Without actually being there, I don't think we can gain much more proof?

Beside the point though, you did not respond to anything, like that, so I guess I will just wait for Wizzup?, or anybody else to respond to two posts up.

i didn't see your post above mine. I was writing my previous reply when you posted, i assume.


in our msn argument, as i remember it, all i was given as proof was (i think) cambrian explosion(i think i deemed that theoretical). Then we went into less scientific areas. and then you tried using Fine-Tuned Universe. I told you i didnt quite understand that, and you stopped talking to me :p.

The problem with arguing with you is that you seem to be a little hypocritical (at least on msn you are). You want scientific facts and then you ask me about where morals came from. Then when im trying to explain things, you tell me that i ask too many questions without answering any of yours. You seem to be the one asking most of the questions. So the argument becomes lopsided. You'll probably come up with something else to tell me im the one who's being hypocritical, so i think i'm going to stop arguing. As people have told you before(i think/hope), this argument is a moo point. Its like a cow's opinion. It doesnt matter…..it's moo.

From: Dan Cardin
i didn't see your post above mine. I was writing my previous reply when you posted, i assume.


in our msn argument, as i remember it, all i was given as proof was (i think) cambrian explosion(i think i deemed that theoretical). Then we went into less scientific areas. and then you tried using Fine-Tuned Universe. I told you i didnt quite understand that, and you stopped talking to me :p.

The problem with arguing with you is that you seem to be a little hypocritical (at least on msn you are). You want scientific facts and then you ask me about where morals came from. Then when im trying to explain things, you tell me that i ask too many questions without answering any of yours. You seem to be the one asking most of the questions. So the argument becomes lopsided. You'll probably come up with something else to tell me im the one who's being hypocritical, so i think i'm going to stop arguing. As people have told you before(i think/hope), this argument is a moo point. Its like a cow's opinion. It doesnt matter…..it's moo.

I thought it was spelled "moot"? :p'

And btw, this whole conversation is very interesting =)

From: Dan Cardin
i didn't see your post above mine. I was writing my previous reply when you posted, i assume.


in our msn argument, as i remember it, all i was given as proof was (i think) cambrian explosion(i think i deemed that theoretical). Then we went into less scientific areas. and then you tried using Fine-Tuned Universe. I told you i didnt quite understand that, and you stopped talking to me :p.

The problem with arguing with you is that you seem to be a little hypocritical (at least on msn you are). You want scientific facts and then you ask me about where morals came from. Then when im trying to explain things, you tell me that i ask too many questions without answering any of yours. You seem to be the one asking most of the questions. So the argument becomes lopsided. You'll probably come up with something else to tell me im the one who's being hypocritical, so i think i'm going to stop arguing. As people have told you before(i think/hope), this argument is a moo point. Its like a cow's opinion. It doesnt matter…..it's moo.

So do I infinitry :). No I would not deem you hypocritical.

However, you must realize

• I deal with multiple people at a time discussing this, so it gets confusing.
• I think we can reach a conclusion by just being rational and deducing, which is the scientific nature of science itself.
• The only time I will ever cut you off when you are answering a question is when you are purposely going out of your way to try to find an answer that is really vague, or something that is not even close to being logical, which is not being true to yourself, which means you really don't want to find the real truth.

I know people so many people with that mindset. Here is how it goes everytime.

• They never want to believe in a God. He is not possible. Evolution is fact. So we start a discussion.
• We talk about it. They try to use moral cliches, talking about things that aren't even truth to them (God's nature, etc) as their argueing points (how ironic, the people that don't believe in God feel He is one of their strongest argueing points). I answer these to the best of my ability, ones that I honestly live with everyday, like the reason for pain and stuff. Most of the time, its because humans have done these things to themselves (like starving kids in Africa), not God.
• They then ask me scientific questions. I answer them, completely and fully. There is no religious bias, there is no unproven statements. All facts.
• I start questioning their theory scientifically speaking. And remember these are all things I have never gotten an answer for, thus why they are my arguement. But i get one of three answers. 1. They give me a bogus answer, which I immediately dismiss. 2. They claim ignorance and say scientists know but they don't. Well if you don't know, how can you believe it!! Find out for yourselves!! 3. They say just because there are holes in the theory, they should believe them.If the theory has holes, what makes you believe that theory! Why should you believe in an idea that doesn't make sense. If and when science figures it out, GREAT. But until then use logic and realize your theory stands on nothing!
• Then I start to ask them questions about things like morality, which they cannot answer or claim ignorance..

You see, I, in a sense, have the right to talk about morals and such, because I believe they exist. They are part of my arguement. They cannot be a part of your arguement because they are true to you. You cannot truely have morals, because what is right for you might not be right for me. So you cannot say I am wrong about God anyway, according to your theory, because everything is relative.

Anyways, CPU is almost out of power, but do you see what I deal with everyday? And not only that, I get the same questions every single day, new people, people look at me in scorn because I believe there is a creator, people think I am stupid. Do you see the problem I might have with this?

From: pwnaz0r

[*]I start questioning their theory scientifically speaking. And remember these are all things I have never gotten an answer for, thus why they are my arguement. But i get one of three answers. 1. They give me a bogus answer, which I immediately dismiss. 2. They claim ignorance and say scientists know but they don't. Well if you don't know, how can you believe it!! Find out for yourselves!! 3. They say just because there are holes in the theory, they should believe them.If the theory has holes, what makes you believe that theory! Why should you believe in an idea that doesn't make sense. If and when science figures it out, GREAT. But until then use logic and realize your theory stands on nothing!

I have an answer for this.
i assume you're talking about something like What started the big bang

In the past, humans had less knowledge, they believed the Sun was the flaming chariot of Apollo,
they believed that thunderstorms were the wraith of Possidion.

when humans didn't understand something, they said that God did it.

now humans have more knowledge, we know the sun is merely a star that we orbit, and that thunderstorms are caused by complex whether stuff.


we have seen from history that as human knowledge advances, make all these gods obsolete.


Today, we don't understand so well how the universe started, you can ask "What started the big bang" and no-one can answer you.
But thats absolutely no reason to say that God did it, if we look at history, we can see that one day, we will have an answer that doesn't involve God.

Like one thing we've learned from history is to never vote for the Nazi party.

I cant believe some humans are still repeating the mistake from the past.

From: pwnaz0r
Anyways, CPU is almost out of power, but do you see what I deal with everyday? And not only that, I get the same questions every single day, new people, people look at me in scorn because I believe there is a creator, people think I am stupid. Do you see the problem I might have with this?

you do realise that no-one is forcing you to talk about this, on this site, the Discussion and Debates section is a small place at the bottom of the forum. you could just write scar scripts if you wanted.

in real life, perhaps you could take a more secular attitude. In some countries like France and Britain, religion is a personal matter that you leave at the door when you go out, no-one needs to know which religion, if any, you follow.

it seems like in America they don't have this secular attitude, its all "I believe in God!, I believe in God!. And in case you didn't get that the first time, I believe in God!"

although I'm merely speculating here, i get the impression that you provoke people in real life about it.

From: Yakman
I have an answer for this.
i assume you're talking about something like What started the big bang

In the past, humans had less knowledge, they believed the Sun was the flaming chariot of Apollo,
they believed that thunderstorms were the wraith of Possidion.

when humans didn't understand something, they said that God did it.

now humans have more knowledge, we know the sun is merely a star that we orbit, and that thunderstorms are caused by complex whether stuff.


we have seen from history that as human knowledge advances, make all these gods obsolete.


Today, we don't understand so well how the universe started, you can ask "What started the big bang" and no-one can answer you.
But thats absolutely no reason to say that God did it, if we look at history, we can see that one day, we will have an answer that doesn't involve God.

Like one thing we've learned from history is to never vote for the Nazi party.

I cant believe some humans are still repeating the mistake from the past.






you do realise that no-one is forcing you to talk about this, on this site, the Discussion and Debates section is a small place at the bottom of the forum. you could just write scar scripts if you wanted.

in real life, perhaps you could take a more secular attitude. In some countries like France and Britain, religion is a personal matter that you leave at the door when you go out, no-one needs to know which religion, if any, you follow.

it seems like in America they don't have this secular attitude, its all "I believe in God!, I believe in God!. And in case you didn't get that the first time, I believe in God!"

although I'm merely speculating here, i get the impression that you provoke people in real life about it.

Actually, unless approached, I don't provoke anyone about it. I don't even know if anyone in real life knows I am a huge advocate of intellegent design. Of course history has shown this, but in those cases, there was no proof in my direction and lack of proof in yours. there was just we had no idea, so we guessed, not using any logic at all. I have listed all my points a thousand times but again.

DNA's complexity shows design, no doubt about it.
Irreducible complexity is a huge thing that evolutionists can't get over.
The Cambrian explosion is a huge scientific fact that scientists can't prove.
(its funny I had a good point but I keep loosing my thought while watching a TV show).

The thing is Yakman, that your supposed to base what you believe on facts. So far, when I ask the question "Tell me one thing that is relevant to the Evoltionary theory that is true". Every single one has ignored the question or said they don't know. Can you think of one? What then do you base your theory on? Why believe that? Figure it out for yourself, don't just listen to what your scientists say. Use reason, they do it everyday on detective shows and guess what happens in the end, the criminals confess. Therefore evidence does help you to come to the right conclusion.

Then after you try (or can) give me one thing right, please tell me whats wrong with everything I listed? Those are all relevant to my theory, are scietifically proven, and are rational? I have never gotten an answer to one. Will you claim ignorance or claim you know them? But see, you really can't know them, because you must be God to answer them, which brings me back to thats what makes Him higher than us.

My point being, the nature of science is not to make a theory and then believe it when there is no evidence. If that theory later on gets proved right, fine. I, myself, will believe it. I will believe there is no God, If that happens. But you see, I am not hypocritical, because holding to my belief, it will not happen. That is not how science works my friend. You do not believe in things that are contradicted by scientific fact. You hold to the theory that is best supported by scietific theory

:( i dont want to get sucked into this again, but since i think you're talking to me, i can justify it.

You have stated multiple times that for you to explain some of the things that you want to explain, that people would have to think from the standing point of a creationalist to understand it. So really they have just as much right as you to be talking about morals. The only problem with that, is that you also keep saying that you want the other people to keep it to science. So if you're trying to limit the other person's side of the argument, then you cannot continue to talk about that side. I think it would be quite stupid if you were to argue with someone about why clowns are funny, without being able to mention clowns.

From: pwnaz0r
when I ask the question "Tell me one thing that is relevant to the Evoltionary theory that is true". Every single one has ignored the question or said they don't know. Can you think of one?

I've got one, well, quite a few actually.
i posted it on this thread before, i have taken the liberty of copy/pasting it onto this post for you.

it uses fossils as evidence here.


***** copy/pasting starts here *****

ok i will, lets start with that creature which has feathers, and also has teeth,
its a transitional species between dinosaurs and birds,
modern day birds dont have teeth, they have beaks.

it has the name Archaeopteryx
about 10 complete body fossils of it have been discovered, and large numbers of parts of its body,

(you might be wondering, "how do they know that this tooth belonged to that bird", well the answer is that the scientists that study this know to look very carefully at all the detail, more often then not, a biologists can tell the species just by looking at a tooth, other things are easier, like feathers are very likely to have a pattern in species)

a picture of one is here

note: although you cant see it in the picture, that bird defiantly has teeth.
paleontologists don't look at pictures like we just did, they look at fossils with magnifying glasses, and they defiantly saw teeth

you cant possibly say all 30 or so fossils found are fake, not when they were found by many different people in many different places.
these clearly show a transition between flying dinosaurs and birds.

an artists impression is here
thats only an artists impression, fossils have no way of telling us what colour its wings were or anything, but we can make educated guesses.






now fossils are rare things, less then 1% of dead animals are preserved like this, we are lucky to have as many fossils as we do,
we dont have many complete fossil records of one specie turning into another, like we have archaeopteryx, but we dont have a fossil of the stage after, as far as i know

one complete fossil record we have is the horse, which is my second piece of evidence for today,
we have a complete record showing how to horse went from a small dog-like creature with 5 toes in each leg, to the modern day horse we see today,

a graphical illustration of these finding is found here

if you want to check all this fossils individually, i can offer you their separate wikipedia pages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyracotherium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesohippus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parahippus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merychippus

sorry for the link spamming, i dont have much to say about these fossils except they are one of the complete fossil records we have,
if you're ever in London, you can have a look at them for yourself in London's Natural History Museum


and sorry to bring this argument away from God, but in my defense, it was Jason2gs who brought up evolution,

and to my atheist fellows, a good page to read up on transitional fossils is here

***** copy/pasting ends here *****

I'm sorry i didn't find it necessary to read all 17 [ish] pages of posts here so i may repeat what some of you have said.

Religion is the expression of the need of something[or where] bigger than yourself. It is scientifically proven that in circumstances of unknown, a belief in some type of higher being will manifest itself. I use the word "scientifically" here both honestly and sarcastically. I partially agree with a comment on the first page that science is also a *form* of religion. Before you huff and puff and start writing your massive counter-argument, hear me out: Religion is an explanation of the unknown using a higher being to explain 'how' or 'why.' Science is similar. It explains the unknown with experiments, facts, laws and theories. Both science and religion change and evolve, and the 'beliefs' in both grow inversely. We all know about the changes in both: Just a 300 years ago Protestants and most other Christians beleived in pre-destination; God has already chosen wether you will go to hell or join Him in heaven, and i don't even need to show the changes in science. Religion has also represented the moral values and sence of 'good' that most of us have regardless of religion [except that some of the religions have taken that to the next level saying that non-beleivers are morally wrong]

As far as wether God exists…. i don't know what to believe. I'd like to believe that i have somewhere better to go because it gives me a goal in life, however i'd also like to believe that my soul is recycled to another form here on earth to make another go and doing something good, but who's to say that's what happens? There's no proof that God or some other higher being{s} exist, no proof that they don't, hell, there's no proof for me that every single person who posts here isn't a computer program that is designed to confuse the crap out of me, and yet there's no proof that you are and nobody has the right to change what i think but me. What we [myself included] believe is created by things we see. If i saw something that i thought only God could have done, then i'd believe in Him. If i saw something that i thought showed that God could not exist, then i wouldn't believe in Him.
I will, however, defer to an adapted version of the beliefs of America's founding fathers, including Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and all of those who were present at the convention in Philadelphia in 1776. Their beleif was that God made this universe with just one touch. He set in motion the physics and {now}scientific laws that resulted in us as a species. We probably weren't his ultimate goal, but, like my brother, it just kinda happened. One of the things that we gained as we evolved was Reason and subsequently Logic. We have the Reason and Logic to see and discover the laws that God gave His universe at its inception. They beleived that should His laws and physics allow us to survive, expand, and learn to a time when we were advanced enough to discover how He created His universe, and thus be able to repeat His experiment, only then would He stick His hand back in to our universe to do as he please, and most likely stop us from doing as He did. He probably has done this to organisms in other parts of the universe, they believed, showing they believed that they couldn't possibly be the only life in such a chasm. They believed until then, they should act morally and responsably, or 'good' as it may be, and always LEARN.
Who's to say they were right or wrong? certainly not me, nor you, nor anyone else. But their belief in these values has shaped not only this country but the entire world.

Arguments over 'does god exist' and or 'is science right' shows that: the starter of said argument either doesn't know what to believe and genuinely wants some discussion and help to decide, or it shows they believe one way or the other and just want to get people to join his or her belief. I am seeing this current starter as the second, as his/her posts on the first page basically tore apart every single other post that contained any believe at all. feel free to rip my beliefs as i probably won't be back to check it out.

People of faith are not supposed to use the physical proof of God as the reason why they believe.

When you see a statue cry blood in front of you, when you see a halo of light in the clouds over a church, when a rosary turns to gold in your grandmother's hands in the holy lands, when saints who have been dead for hundreds of years do not decay one bit and look as if they are sleeping, and when other miracles present themselves is how you have proof.

These miracles do not happen for those who don't believe, so they will continue to say they don't exist or can be explained.

Miracles are the best argument for his existence.

miracles are just things that we categorize as unexplainable at the current time.

Though i do agree with you saying that people of faith shouldnt use physical proof to "prove" God, since this reminds me of a good point made by a very good friend of mine, Douglas Adams

This first part is talking about the babel fish
[QUOTE=Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy]Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as final and clinching proof of the nonexistance of God.

the argument goes something like this:
[QUOTE=God]I refuse to prove that i exist for proof denies faith, and without faith i am nothing.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=man]but the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguements, you dont exist. QED.

From: God
Oh dear, I hadnt thought of that.

and God promptly vanishes in a puff of logic

From: man
Oh, that was easy

then man goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing

From: DaBomber2
I'm sorry i didn't find it necessary to read all 17 [ish] pages of posts here so i may repeat what some of you have said.

Religion is the expression of the need of something[or where] bigger than yourself. It is scientifically proven that in circumstances of unknown, a belief in some type of higher being will manifest itself. I use the word "scientifically" here both honestly and sarcastically. I partially agree with a comment on the first page that science is also a *form* of religion. Before you huff and puff and start writing your massive counter-argument, hear me out: Religion is an explanation of the unknown using a higher being to explain 'how' or 'why.' Science is similar. It explains the unknown with experiments, facts, laws and theories. Both science and religion change and evolve, and the 'beliefs' in both grow inversely. We all know about the changes in both: Just a 300 years ago Protestants and most other Christians beleived in pre-destination; God has already chosen wether you will go to hell or join Him in heaven, and i don't even need to show the changes in science. Religion has also represented the moral values and sence of 'good' that most of us have regardless of religion [except that some of the religions have taken that to the next level saying that non-beleivers are morally wrong]

As far as wether God exists…. i don't know what to believe. I'd like to believe that i have somewhere better to go because it gives me a goal in life, however i'd also like to believe that my soul is recycled to another form here on earth to make another go and doing something good, but who's to say that's what happens? There's no proof that God or some other higher being{s} exist, no proof that they don't, hell, there's no proof for me that every single person who posts here isn't a computer program that is designed to confuse the crap out of me, and yet there's no proof that you are and nobody has the right to change what i think but me. What we [myself included] believe is created by things we see. If i saw something that i thought only God could have done, then i'd believe in Him. If i saw something that i thought showed that God could not exist, then i wouldn't believe in Him.
I will, however, defer to an adapted version of the beliefs of America's founding fathers, including Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and all of those who were present at the convention in Philadelphia in 1776. Their beleif was that God made this universe with just one touch. He set in motion the physics and {now}scientific laws that resulted in us as a species. We probably weren't his ultimate goal, but, like my brother, it just kinda happened. One of the things that we gained as we evolved was Reason and subsequently Logic. We have the Reason and Logic to see and discover the laws that God gave His universe at its inception. They beleived that should His laws and physics allow us to survive, expand, and learn to a time when we were advanced enough to discover how He created His universe, and thus be able to repeat His experiment, only then would He stick His hand back in to our universe to do as he please, and most likely stop us from doing as He did. He probably has done this to organisms in other parts of the universe, they believed, showing they believed that they couldn't possibly be the only life in such a chasm. They believed until then, they should act morally and responsably, or 'good' as it may be, and always LEARN.
Who's to say they were right or wrong? certainly not me, nor you, nor anyone else. But their belief in these values has shaped not only this country but the entire world.

Arguments over 'does god exist' and or 'is science right' shows that: the starter of said argument either doesn't know what to believe and genuinely wants some discussion and help to decide, or it shows they believe one way or the other and just want to get people to join his or her belief. I am seeing this current starter as the second, as his/her posts on the first page basically tore apart every single other post that contained any believe at all. feel free to rip my beliefs as i probably won't be back to check it out.

Haha, that is a well thought-out argument, my friend. And it is very similar to what I believe.

Everyone is stating that "God doesn't exist. We used to think the Sun was a god. Now we know it is just a flaming ball of fusion," and similar things. But why can't we say that God made it that way? Things don't just happen. There is no way that we just happened to spawn from the same thing that tigers spawned from. If you look, science always tries to find the reason behind something occurring. So if we move by our brain sending jolts along our nervous system, how does our brain think? And once that is proven, why do our brains think?

It seems to me that the only reasonable source of origin is God ;)

And btw, I agree that God shouldn't get proved by physical means. It is by faith and how he works in you that makes you believe.

Miracles: Ever thought of bribes or hypnosis? They are not completely irrational.

These pointless threads about religion are starting to get to me…

IMO everyone should just accept the fact that no one really knows if God exists or not, and If people want to believe in him, let them. Who cares? Evidence or no evidence people will always believe there is a higher power. Let them. And if you want to believe in science? Go ahead!

In the words of T3H 0wNz0r Tupac- "That's just the way it is."

amen brother

Except the tupac part, i dont like him :p

From: metalanca
IMO everyone should just accept the fact that no one really knows if God exists or not, and If people want to believe in him, let them. Who cares? Evidence or no evidence people will always believe there is a higher power. Let them. And if you want to believe in science? Go ahead!

belief in god caused the troubles in Isreal, the troubles in Northern Ireland, the Croat/Serbo massacres, the 11th september attacks and 7th july in london.

you've got politians who believe in god doing nothing about global warming/climate change because they believe it will lead to judgement day.

there is the oppression of women, the spanish inquisition, the suicide bombers, the slaughter of millions. All commited in the name of God.

if you want to stop deaths in the world, getting rid of religion is probably the easiest way, much easier then a cure for cancer or finding food for millions of starving people.

imagine no religion, the world would be much better off.

no, a live-and-let-live attitude will not work.

From: Yakman
belief in god caused the troubles in Isreal, the troubles in Northern Ireland, the Croat/Serbo massacres, the 11th september attacks and 7th july in london.

you've got politians who believe in god doing nothing about global warming/climate change because they believe it will lead to judgement day.

there is the oppression of women, the spanish inquisition, the suicide bombers, the slaughter of millions. All commited in the name of God.

if you want to stop deaths in the world, getting rid of religion is probably the easiest way, much easier then a cure for cancer or finding food for millions of starving people.

imagine no religion, the world would be much better off.

no, a live-and-let-live attitude will not work.

If you want to reap the benefits of the afterlife, you have to live in physical torment.

And Einstein's energy formula resulted in the atomic bomb…which resulted in many people dying in Hiroshima. Are we better off without science?

Belief in God did not cause any of those events you described, yakman, save the opression[sp?] of women, which i cant make any type of excuse for. Men are arrogant [including myself i must say] and think they are the strongest and most powerful beings and used the adam and eve story [and similar ones] against women. Crimes against women such as the acid burnings in some muslim countries is caused by hatred, anger and intolerance by the men who think they are all-powerful. that is not religion-based. there are muslims in this country who do not try to put down women, burn them, or rape them simply because they can. the women converting and the female children are told what is expected of them [no more than that of amish women] and they can choose to leave. it is that simple and definately not opressive.
the other events you described are not so simply described as caused by religion. they are caused by hatred and intolerance of other religions: christians agains jews, muslims against everybody, india and others against buddhists, shinto and other japanese religions against chinese folk beliefs, its all caused by intolerance that has escelated. evangelical groups are a perfect example of what should be happening. my friend's church is one of such and beleives that they should spread the word of jesus and that only believing in him will get one in to heaven. they tell people this, and tell them that only they can choose to join or not to and nobody is going to force them. how is that wrong?
on to your final statements:

if you want to stop deaths in the world, getting rid of religion is probably the easiest way, much easier then a cure for cancer or finding food for millions of starving people.

imagine no religion, the world would be much better off.

no, a live-and-let-live attitude will not work.

That, sir, is a statement of intolerance, no better than the 9-11 attack on the World Trade Center, nor the Spanish Inquisition nor the Crusades [which, by the way, i was concerned how it didn't get mentioned] nor the burning by acid of women. You are telling me that the ONLY reason for death in this world is my religion. The ONLY way to stop death is to stop religion. The ONLY good place is a place where helping one's self is the highest priority. The ONLY good place is a place where morals don't exist due to the previous. That is a statement of intolerance of ALL religions, not the people who use it as a weapon. Think about that for a little while before you come up with your next pitifully hypocritical post… There are many religions and ways of beliefs that don't have people who kill in their name. Why must they go as well? just because you think it'd be better? i think it'd be better if it was me and my girlfriend in a grassfield with nobody and nothing else. do i think it'll help? no, and therefore it's not right.

and yes, a live and let live attitude will work but only in a region of tolerance by all religions. let me use this analogy: Whirlpool and GE both make washing machines. One may be more energy efficient, one may wash more clothes. Both are for sale, and you believe you are ready to purchase one. These two companies advertise to you and talk to you and try to convince you how one of their products are better for you than the other. Yet they still coexist, they both gain customers and lose customers but they don't fight. they don't go around killing eachother's CEOs or presidents. they live and let live…

From: Yakman
belief in god caused the troubles in Isreal, the troubles in Northern Ireland, the Croat/Serbo massacres, the 11th september attacks and 7th july in london.

you've got politians who believe in god doing nothing about global warming/climate change because they believe it will lead to judgement day.

there is the oppression of women, the spanish inquisition, the suicide bombers, the slaughter of millions. All commited in the name of God.

if you want to stop deaths in the world, getting rid of religion is probably the easiest way, much easier then a cure for cancer or finding food for millions of starving people.

imagine no religion, the world would be much better off.

no, a live-and-let-live attitude will not work.

Thats true, I guess some people need to justify their acts of violence by saying it was in Gods name.

Hoever there are also people that refrain from crime and acts of violence in the name of God, thinking that they won't go to hell because of it.

From: DaBomber2
Belief in God did not cause any of those events you described, yakman, save the opression[sp?] of women,

i disagree,

why else do countless palestinians blow themselves up in a marketplace?
for glory? for 72 virgins?

why else did 4 men leave their children, their wives (one of whom was pregnant) and their friends to be forced into hiding, and their entire community, which now faces a backlash.
(im talking about 7/7 in london)

From: DaBomber2
the other events you described are not so simply described as caused by religion. they are caused by hatred and intolerance of other religions: christians agains jews, muslims against everybody, india and others against buddhists, shinto and other japanese religions against chinese folk beliefs, its all caused by intolerance that has escelated. evangelical groups are a perfect example of what should be happening. my friend's church is one of such and beleives that they should spread the word of jesus and that only believing in him will get one in to heaven. they tell people this, and tell them that only they can choose to join or not to and nobody is going to force them. how is that wrong?
on to your final statements:

exactly, so the best way to remove intolerance and hatred of other religions is to remove religions altogether.


like in the croat/serbo/bosnian conflicts, there are three peoples who are exactly the same, except one is catholic, one is muslim, one is orthodox.
Religion here acts as a way to separating people and making them hate each other.

"you guys have christmas on the 25th of december, we have it on the 7th of january, therefore im going to kill you now"

make sense?

as iv said before these people are exactly the same, they have the same skin colour, same language, same everything except for their religion.


a very similar story in northern ireland, two peoples exactly the same except one is catholic and the other protestant.


if there was no religion here, the peoples would have long ago intermarried and they would stop being three or two peoples, and become one people.

From: DaBomber2
That, sir, is a statement of intolerance, no better than the 9-11 attack on the World Trade Center, nor the Spanish Inquisition nor the Crusades [which, by the way, i was concerned how it didn't get mentioned] nor the burning by acid of women. You are telling me that the ONLY reason for death in this world is my religion. The ONLY way to stop death is to stop religion. The ONLY good place is a place where helping one's self is the highest priority. The ONLY good place is a place where morals don't exist due to the previous. That is a statement of intolerance of ALL religions, not the people who use it as a weapon. Think about that for a little while before you come up with your next pitifully hypocritical post… There are many religions and ways of beliefs that don't have people who kill in their name. Why must they go as well? just because you think it'd be better? i think it'd be better if it was me and my girlfriend in a grassfield with nobody and nothing else. do i think it'll help? no, and therefore it's not right.

this is an epic strawman argument.

although its party my fault for not saying "if you want to stop some deaths in the world…"

From: Benjamin Franklin (1706-90)
In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes.

the idea that you can stop all deaths is clearly… not right.
i don't know though, maybe you have the religious idea that you'll survive your own death, life after death or something.

From: DaBomber2
The ONLY good place is a place where helping one's self is the highest priority. The ONLY good place is a place where morals don't exist due to the previous.

i refute this,
religion does not cause or create morals, morals are already there.
here is why.

when you read a holy book, for example the bible, there are many good passages, and also many bad passages (saturday workers get stoned to death, homosexuality is a crime, women are less the men)

there is nothing which says which parts are good and which are bad. humans have to make up their own minds.
in the vast majority of cases, people pick the ones which are moral, people already have morals, and use them to ignore the bad parts of holy books.

therefore morals do not come from religion, humans already have them.

From: DaBomber2
and yes, a live and let live attitude will work but only in a region of tolerance by all religions. let me use this analogy: Whirlpool and GE both make washing machines. One may be more energy efficient, one may wash more clothes. Both are for sale, and you believe you are ready to purchase one. These two companies advertise to you and talk to you and try to convince you how one of their products are better for you than the other. Yet they still coexist, they both gain customers and lose customers but they don't fight. they don't go around killing eachother's CEOs or presidents. they live and let live…

i disagree with this analogy, if they fought each other, they would be prosecuted by the laws of that country. Their best strategy in life would be to not fight.

also, you do realise that in any hard times, prejudges and intolerance will arise,
in unemployment or war, there will always be someone saying "its the jews fault"