SRL Archive - Discussions & Debates

has this not been brought up before? vote in the poll, back up your opinion!
:spot: :spot: :spot: :spot: :spot: ;)

evolved how else would all animals have the same BASIC structure (mammals and organs) sure some have different functions and some use organs differently but its all the same basic layout

^^^^^^^^^
agreed, also, how does carbon dating show bacteria fossils billions of years ago?

I feel a bit of both. I dont want to get into arguments about it. And may i reccomend people dont go picking holes in peoples religions. It can only end badly.

i agree with pyro, discutions about relegeon hardly ever end well. relegeon is the worst thing to talk about, except maybe politics (hmm, maybe ill make a poll about capitalim, communism and fascism)

anyway, i voted the first option. iv read all the evidence about fossils, cardon dating, and stuff

also, mutation is what makes the HIV virus so hard to kill. mutation causes cancer. mutation in the long term is evolution. we can SEE mutation going on. just lock a fly in a smoke detector and see what happens (smoke detectors have a radioactive metal called americanim in them)

Hehhe, who voted about god… http://godisimaginary.com/

ROFLMFAO THANKS PENTTI… lolololol
LMAO that was so funny and so TRUE… lol.

As you can see and read. This has already started to get sour.

hey, this is in the discussion section, people can ignore it if they want to, you are just supposed to discuss it here. if there were no differing opinions, then we would be in a chineese (country) utopia (jk lol). i think people should be able to discuss it civilly

Ok fair call. Personally i think people need to have faith. There are plenty of scientists that are still religious. The world used to be all religious. Then when priests got the plague they turned all technology. But now we realise there has to be a middle ground. Where the two mix.

From: Pentti
Hehhe, who voted about god… http://godisimaginary.com/

omg, that guy is horrible
im kinda pro-tolerance about this kinda stuff, and i'll respect what other people have to say
you shouldnt be an asshole and belittle other people who believe other things than you

i admit that i dont really believe in a religion, but i do think that there is value in reading religious texts for the metaphors they contain and lessons and morals about how to better live your life

i kinda think its also human nature to want to believe that theres something more to life than just being born, having babies, and dying, which is probably why religion started

anybody who thinks that the bible is made up of lies or anybody that thinks everything in the bible is true is kinda silly
its all about reading between the lines

(that was just to hopefully prevent any future god/evolution bashing)
play nice

i think anyone who doesnt want to talk about thier opionion should be left alone. bashing? niegh! intellegent discussion is what i seek!

Adam and Eve, but yes, it is based on your religion.

i dont really care but…

Lard master??? wtf is up with your sig?

they are lard?

wtf

^^^
if you scroll down, you can see the entire message, or you can go to www.lard.net

ps
i like the way the poll is in a little curve

alright….these things just piss me off. I have a few things to say.

Pyro - THANK YOU! Finally someone who understands that messing in something someone deeply belives in wil only end in tears…and maybe blood :p

Masq - Interesting outlook. I've never met a athiest who reads religious holy books for the knowledge they contain.

- Personal Respect for Pyro and Masq goes Up -

now we get to the fun bits….

Soupy - Alright….I thought i already told you this when you had that link in your sig….WHY MUST YOU PUSH THIS? I already know that you are a athiest. Fine. That dosent mean you have the right to just deny other peoples beliefs. It is hurtful. How would you feel if I started telling everyeryone that people without any feeling for others beliefs where uncaring bastards (*hint**hint*) I already asked you nicely. I'm asking again. STOP IT.

Pentti - Read alot of what i said in Soupys. Besides that. Your a idiot. Stop posting hurtful links and learn to be tactful.

- Respect for Soupy and Pentti = -126736233

I only just told what's my opinion. You can believe to "god", but I don't.

fine. I respect you decisions. I dont agree with you but you dont see me posting links. I think you should follow my example and try to be more tactful next time. Or do it where no on can be hurt by it.

Listen to wiser people than yourself Pentti (from what ive read in your posts you could listen to a monkey) but pyro and masq have the right idea(i'm in no way comparing pyro and asq to monkeys….). So listen to them stop poking fun at other peoples beliefs. I dont. Niether should you. It will make SRL a better community.

From: Ruroken
- Respect for Soupy and Pentti = -126736233

Wow.. -126736233 that no longer an Integer but an LongInt; :spot: :)

Anyway, If this topic is going to the wrong side.. spamming and flaming etc..
I will remove it, no I will not lock it, but remove it.
Furthermore if it will go really badly,
I will most likely think or alternatives to punish the ones that mis-behaved.

Now, this may sound really angry.. well I am not.. I am just warning, I personally don't mind this kind of topics..
But the problem is that they most of the time turn out to become really offensive to religous people (no offence, I respect you, I just don't beleive in god), think of the link posted..
Therefore, no more stupid joke's about regilions….(Not that I like any of those though…)

Now.. back on topic.

Thank you Wizzy!!!

Respect For Wizzy = + 1903763877233334333524545663524 :p

hmm…i see a tendancy for people to think that flaming is going on. some people can't take other people insulting thier core beliefs…if you are one of those people, this is not the thread for you. not a thread for fascists and others who cant accept, but those who are open to all ideas *claps in the background for corny speech*

From: Mutant Squirrle
evolved how else would all animals have the same BASIC structure (mammals and organs) sure some have different functions and some use organs differently but its all the same basic layout

When you write a new script, do you go back to 101011100100100 assembly code? Do you assemble your own unique microprocessor on which to run it? Or do you use a language and hardware technology that has already been developed and proven to work?

Of course you do. You are intelligent, you know what works, so you don't start from scratch every time you decide to make something new. "Re-inventing the wheel" seems awfully wasteful, don't you think?

In my personal opinion, the basic creation story from the Bible provides a plausible framework for how the world and its many inhabitants came to be. It certainly isn't "World Creation for Dummies" by any means. It doesn't provide any detail whatsoever, or any mechanism for how it all may have taken place. If you want to 'test' this hypothesis, the only way to do so is either through personal religious exploration or by taking the word of others that are better at such religious exploration (the experts so to speak). Scientists would dismiss such exploration as lacking a "testable hypothesis", since the outcome couldn't prove anything enough to convince a skeptic.

Now, if you take 'science' on the other hand, it also provides a plausible framework for how life came to be. Again, there are countless details that are not provided, and whatever the latest newest explanation happens to be, it is rife with the problems associated with trying to understand the state of the earth, the sun, the atmosphere, etc, 4 billion years ago. And since most here have some understanding of information technology, there is an entire added dimension of complexity where even if all the building blocks for forming a self-replicating, evolution-capable entity exist at the same time at the same place, there is nothing available to provide the information needed to assemble them. It's kind of like taking the unabridged dictionary, dumping all the letters in the entire book into a big bucket, shaking it around, and then pouring out Shakespeare. Not to suggest that you need Shakespeare on the first try, but there IS a component of information that is often ignored in the whole topic.

If you really, really want to find out, you have two choices again. You can go get a PhD in evolution/microbiology/geology/information technology, etc, and spend a lifetime trying to wrestle with the science and trying to piece together the puzzle. Or you can take the word of those who are doing just that (the experts so to speak).

Ultimately, whether you lend more credence to scientists, many of whom often disagree on the same subject, or to religious experts, who again often disagree, the vast majority of people on this planet are not they themselves capable of understanding the subject on a level that would enable them to form a thoroughly educated opinion on the subject. Thus, even if they believe the framework presented by scientists, ultimately it's a decision based on 'faith'.

There are two key points in our existence that science currently has no explanation whatsoever for, and currently has no prospects whatsoever for making any headway on in the forseeable future. The first is, of course, the big bang. All the physics used to understand the universe completely break down at a singularity. There is no conceivable way to explain why it happened, or how it happened, or why it happened SO precisely as to allow our universe to exist, or why it has not happened 100 kajillion times since then. For all we know, a big bang could erupt at your mom's house tomorrow and we'd all be obliterated. I once read that if you just look at the velocity of expansion during the big bang, it had to be exactly as it was. If it was either faster or slower by as little as 1 / 10^15, the universe would have already collapsed 14.6 billion years ago, or would have flown apart without the possibility of matter coalescing into suns and planets under the force of gravity.

The second key point is the generation of life from non-life, or abiogenesis as it is known. This has to do with piecing together a life form from soup. Again, the current conceptual difficulties have stymied all current research paths, and there is no clear way forward in addressing them. There is no "testable hypothesis" so to speak. Yes there is ongoing research, but it's all dancing around the most difficult questions, one of which has to do with information, in favor of greener pastures.

I think in either case, there is plenty of room for a Creator. Whether such a being acted at the point of causing the big bang, or of creating the first ancestral life form from which all life on this planet came to be, or everything popped into being at once is a subjective belief, usually based on which experts you have the most faith in.

http://www.chem.duke.edu/~jds/cruise_chem/Exobiology/miller.html

Many of the compounds made in the Miller/Urey experiment are known to exist in outer space. On September 28, 1969, a meteorite fell over Murchison, Australia. While only 100 kilograms were recovered, analysis of the meteorite has shown that it is rich with amino acids. Over 90 amino acids have been identified by researchers to date.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment

now im not saying this proves 100% that bacteria could have formed on thier own, but it shows that at least the building blocks can be created

The Urey-Miller experiment is well known, but they were looking in the wrong place. Literally no self-respecting scientist working on abiogenesis believes that proteins were the first functioning macromolecule. That was abandoned long ago. Some retreated to the idea that it all began with an RNA world, since DNA/RNA is used to encode information for ALL known life forms, and since RNA is much simpler to assemble de-novo than DNA, and since RNA is known to have actual biological function on its own in some cases. Of course this creates its own set of problems. For one, RNA is very unstable, so even if a self-replicating catalytically active RNA molecule sprang forth into existence, it would most likely simply degrade before accomplishing anything. Secondly, you have to deal with size issues. Most experiments on RNA are forced to restrict themselves to sequences less than 100 units long for various scientific and technical reasons. Again the problem here is how do you put enough information into 100 units to accomplish anything other than self-replication?

Another perplexing problem is that if you look at the very simplest known organism today, and do an experiment to figure out how many unique 'functions' are absolutely required for that organism to survive and propagate in optimal conditions, it's on the order of 250 unique functions/genes. Even if we were to assume that something even simpler could exist, on the order of 100 genes, where we completely ignore more than half of the things we know to be critical in life as we know it, you still need to generate those 100 functions that are left. If you try to do it in a single macromolecule, it would have to be IMMENSE, creating all sort of problems. IF you try to do it in 50 or 100 different molecules then you run into the problem of localization. There would have to be a mechanism in place to aggregate all 50 of your unique functional elements into one place, and ALSO to exclude every other possible element that may interfere with the operation of those 50.

As you conceptually allow the probability of any given macromolecule to spring forth into being to go up, you also must be intellectually honest enough to realize that the same theoretical mechanisms would allow conflicting and interfering molecules to be generated as well. There are fundamental problems with generating enough building blocks, assembling them into large enough multimer complexes, encoding information into those complexes, allowing association with other beneficial complexes, and preventing association with harmful ones. It's a very complex field, and as I said before some scientists in this field have openly admitted that they see the problems clearly but see no current or future strategy for attempting to addess them.

i think perhaps putting this into a time-frame perspective might be usefull. a billion years is such a rediculously large amount of time, that i think no-one truly grasps its enourmosity. if you give quadrillions of mokeys typewriters to bash on, one of them will probably reproduce the works of shakesbeare. also, you may not believe in paralell universes, but if you do, think about it, the ONE universe in which life is created, is the only one where people are there to ponder it. (or perhaps there are multiple universes with life)

From: lardmaster
i think perhaps putting this into a time-frame perspective might be usefull. a billion years is such a rediculously large amount of time, that i think no-one truly grasps its enourmosity. if you give quadrillions of mokeys typewriters to bash on, one of them will probably reproduce the works of shakesbeare. also, you may not believe in paralell universes, but if you do, think about it, the ONE universe in which life is created, is the only one where people are there to ponder it. (or perhaps there are multiple universes with life)

Yes, time is important, but let's put it into the CORRECT perspective. Current theories are based on cosmological events that are believed to have taken place. The most important for this discussion is the bombardment of the earth with meteors. The earth was so thoroughly pummeled with so many devastating meteors for such a long period of time that most scientists believe that even if the precursors to life HAD begun, it would have been wiped out repeatedly. So, for that reason, most scientists believe that life began AFTER this bombardment stopped. This ended roughly 3.8 billion years ago.

If you look at the fossil record, the earliest evidence of bacterial fossils is found at roughly 3.5 billion years ago. This limits the time frame available for the leap from soup to bacteria to roughly 200-300 million years. Not billions and billions. This alone does not preclude the possibility that life may have still arisen in this fashion, but it DOES require scientists to look for mechanisms that can develop rapidly over shortish geologic time frames rather than over eons.

although it makes sense that life could not survive during the bombardment by meteors, that does not rule out the possibility of the building blocks (i.e. amino acids) surviving. thus when the bombardment was finshed everything was in place for life to develop rapidly. the part where the billions of years comes in is from the start of the earth to the end of the bombardment. i have also read some pretty interesting theories on reproducing chains of silicon. hardly what you can call life, but they do form pretty easily.

p.s. i am just curious, but what exactly do you believe? most people who dont believe in evolution do not belive in a large geological time scale.

i also realised how out of context my idea about paralell universes is. there is much less to back that theory up than the theory of evolution.

Voted the 3rd one down. Read in Hebrew, the story of the creation of the world can be interpreted many different ways… :D Anyhow, no further comments on that:

Religion = WARS

MMh.. What if we're all just simulated by a gigantic computer in a sidepocket of the universe??? What if reality was simulated, huh… :confused: We could like all just be the imagination of some person, built up of some artificial matter or a network of neurons.

What if life just suddenly "popped" into existance because some person thought of it? What if we live in a sort of MATRIX, where life, time, and space are merely very extreme and persistent illusions? Hypothetically seen, the truth of this statement can only be verified if glitches in the so called "simulation" are found.

cool, i am a program!
^^^^^^^^

compromise… you could say that god created the atoms/molecules… which led to big bang and planets.. and bacteria developed… and thus evolution goes on….
see evolution is most likely true… but it still doesn't address the problem of what created us… it just explains the process of creation, not the very very beginning.
btw… tarajunky i must compliment you on your eloquent verbosity (lawl)…did you do a philosophy/science course or something… i didn't realise the many intricate flaws within the macromolecule theory :S…
basically it boils down to a few views (or at least my views which tend to fluctuate:
life's a fluke
life is guided by god
or… god touched a few things here and there.. but everything else is a fluke…

This should clear it all up for you..

EDIT:
Darwinism- If you check his book "The Origin Of The Species" he says that if organs were too complexe to be evoulved then there was no ways his " theory" would could be right.
In Darwin's time we did not have the knowledge that we have today. There is not way one cell developed into a complexe organ and made things such as blood vesels, membranes, nervous systems, hearts, the distribution of blood etc. In short of this edit, If Darwin were alive today he would renounce his theory(That is only my guess).

I go to a private School and i am sort of trained in the aspect of this.

Ok now i do not remeber the mathamaticians names but here is a situation calculated by a NON-GODBELIEVING NON-CHRISTIAN ETC.

He since turned to Christainity..

The Odds of the universe being created exactly perfect, everything in order where everything happened etc is the POSSIBILITY OF A TORNADO GOING THROUGH A JUNKYARD AND ASSEMBLING A 747 AIRPLANE IN FULL WORKING ORDER READY TO FLY!!

Also nothing can't come from nothing..

If you assume for a moment that there is intelegent design(EG A god)
then couldn't he make everything how it is today?

If there really was a flood that god sent, couldn't it have added carbonition, etc. (watever) to the minerals?

If you think about it you dont just look at the computer you're staring into and say hey, this came from nothing. You know something created it. It didnt just come to exist.

If there was a god, and he was all powerful, couldn't he have been there for all eternity?

If you think of Jesus(scientists have infact clarified that he was real not saying that he was God's son though), and you may not know the story but he was cruxified for his people and rose again 3 days later from the grave, then there are a few points i would like you to consider.

1. If the roman officials wanted to prove Jesus wasn't alive to the Jews, why didn't they show the people? They lost the body is the only logical reason.And Lmfao at that there is no way they "lost the body" Unless they were horrible at keeping things in the first place therefore they're sorce wouldn't be reliable in the first place.

2. Second of all if you examine the story of Jesus in say John, He goes into what is called " excessive detail" that means he says things that aren't neccesary to the story such as "The linen was rolled neatly and too the right side of the tomb". No person that was lying would do that..That is one techinique people use today in criminal court cases to see if some1 is lying.

3. Speaking of today's court cases, the last is of the witness's. Usually today you only need one witness to decide a court case. There were 500 witnesses. If you had a surevey of 500 people and they all said they saw him with their eyes wouldn't that be proof enough..


And i only have minimal knowledge of these arguments. I learned them two yearsd ago and those are the only one i rememebr if you're more interested please check another site or i may update this later :).

Eh I just feel like it

From: pwnaz0r
This should clear it all up for you..

EDIT:
Darwinism- If you check his book "The Origin Of The Species" he says that if organs were too complexe to be evoulved then there was no ways his " theory" would could be right.
In Darwin's time we did not have the knowledge that we have today. There is not way one cell developed into a complexe organ and made things such as blood vesels, membranes, nervous systems, hearts, the distribution of blood etc. In short of this edit, If Darwin were alive today he would renounce his theory(That is only my guess).

Organs evolve from slightly less complex organs, and so and so on, back to single cell organisms. It's hard to grasp just how long and slow it is.

Also, babies start off as 1 cell.

I go to a private School and i am sort of trained in the aspect of this.

If it's a religious private school, then you are biased, and perhaps brainwashed rather than trained.

The Odds of the universe being created exactly perfect, everything in order where everything happened etc is the POSSIBILITY OF A TORNADO GOING THROUGH A JUNKYARD AND ASSEMBLING A 747 AIRPLANE IN FULL WORKING ORDER READY TO FLY!!

Again, people underestimate how big the universe is. If you had enough junkyards and tornadoes, it would happen eventually. But this is a really big number. People win the lottery, with a really small possibility of winning, but the thing is a lot of people play it that don't win. Just as there are a lot of stars without planets, a lot of planets not suitable for life etc etc.

Also, god twitching his nose like jeanie and poof, theres the earth seems very unlikely too.

Yes it is amazing that we are here, either way. Just accept it. There's no special reason for it.

Also nothing can't come from nothing..

Where did god come from?
BigBang theory explains where the universe came from, except not where the highly dense mass of all the matter came from in the first place.
Either way, we're stuck with, 'it was just there' or 'there was no existence/time before'. You have a choice, a chunk of mass was just there, or an all powerful being was just there. And if you go by complex things being harder to just be happen/be there/evolve…..

If you assume for a moment that there is intelegent design(EG A god)

You can just assume anything.

then couldn't he make everything how it is today?

That's a flaw in the whole god thing, god can do anything, so its a cop out. This is why I think a superman video game would be lame, and why I am kinda glad the Hiro couldn't just time travel and save Charlie in Heroes, because the writers could use it as an excuse. This is believing what you are told with faith, rather than thinking about it.

If there really was a flood that god sent, couldn't it have added carbonition, etc. (watever) to the minerals?

Don't know what you mean there.

If you think about it you dont just look at the computer you're staring into and say hey, this came from nothing. You know something created it. It didnt just come to exist.

Again, where did god come from, see above.

If there was a god, and he was all powerful, couldn't he have been there for all eternity?

Again, the ingredients for bigbang could have been there.

If you think of Jesus(scientists have infact clarified that he was real not saying that he was God's son though), and you may not know the story but he was cruxified for his people and rose again 3 days later from the grave, then there are a few points i would like you to consider.

1. If the roman officials wanted to prove Jesus wasn't alive to the Jews, why didn't they show the people? They lost the body is the only logical reason.And Lmfao at that there is no way they "lost the body" Unless they were horrible at keeping things in the first place therefore they're sorce wouldn't be reliable in the first place.

Not going into that because I am not familiar with the whole story, nor know if its true.

2. Second of all if you examine the story of Jesus in say John, He goes into what is called " excessive detail" that means he says things that aren't neccesary to the story such as "The linen was rolled neatly and too the right side of the tomb". No person that was lying would do that..That is one techinique people use today in criminal court cases to see if some1 is lying.

I have read plenty of completely fictional novels with lots of detail. Secondly, maybe John wasn't lying, maybe he was a character made up by one of the many many writers of the bible. Or maybe he was misquoted.

From: pwnaz0r

Pickles are my favorite food.

From: George Bush

Pickles are my favorite food.

I can say whatever I want, doesn't mean it's true.

3. Speaking of today's court cases, the last is of the witness's. Usually today you only need one witness to decide a court case. There were 500 witnesses. If you had a surevey of 500 people and they all said they saw him with their eyes wouldn't that be proof enough..

Again, I can make 1000 names and forge 1000 signatures. (I have a life though lol). You are assuming the bible/john/witnesses is true, because the bible said so, it's a loop.

And i only have minimal knowledge of these arguments. I learned them two yearsd ago and those are the only one i rememebr if you're more interested please check another site or i may update this later :).

Same here, I just like finding holes :p

Every theory has holes. That's why there is a debate. If there were no holes in the science, the debate wouldn't happen, or a least it wouldn't be nearly as interesting.

One of the 'holes' on evolution that hasn't been brought up has to do with the inherent problems of dating fossils. The evolutionists point to the fossil record and say that there is clear evidence that species X came from species Y, etc. If evolution is true, then you expect to see a line of gradual changes going back through time that connect to a common ancestor. You don't expect to see 'ancestors' showing up before 'transition' fossils though, since the timing would be out of order.

So, how do you decide which fossils are older and which fossils are newer? The most common way is to date the fossil based on the rock strata that it is in. So, if the fossil is found in a stratum that is a million years old, then the fossil is a million years old. Easy, right? Yes, but the problem is that most rock strata are dated based on the fossils found in it. So, if you find fossils that are 1 million years old, then the layer is 1 million years old, and since the layer is 1 million years old the fossils in that layer are 1 million years old. It's circular logic.

So, when geologists dig down into the ground and find fossils "out of place", they just wave their hands and explain it away as a some sort of fault line that made the 100 million year old fossils show up on top of the 10 million year old fossils. This type of thing happens all the time.

And yes there are techniques available to date fossils, such as radiocarbon dating, but those techniques can only go back so far. The half-life of carbon 14 is something like 5000 years. So, if you have a fossil 1 million years old and a fossil 2 million years old, carbon dating can't tell any difference between them, since all the C14 has already long since decayed in both samples. So, you are left with guesses about the dating, which ASSUME evolution took place. And attempting to use such dating techniques to prove evolution has occurred throws you right back into that circular logic, since you assumed it did to set up the dating in the first place. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, so to speak.

From: Boreas
Eh I just feel like it


Organs evolve from slightly less complex organs, and so and so on, back to single cell organisms. It's hard to grasp just how long and slow it is.

Also, babies start off as 1 cell.




If it's a religious private school, then you are biased, and perhaps brainwashed rather than trained.

Again, people underestimate how big the universe is. If you had enough junkyards and tornadoes, it would happen eventually. But this is a really big number. People win the lottery, with a really small possibility of winning, but the thing is a lot of people play it that don't win. Just as there are a lot of stars without planets, a lot of planets not suitable for life etc etc.

Also, god twitching his nose like jeanie and poof, theres the earth seems very unlikely too.

Yes it is amazing that we are here, either way. Just accept it. There's no special reason for it.


Where did god come from?
BigBang theory explains where the universe came from, except not where the highly dense mass of all the matter came from in the first place.
Either way, we're stuck with, 'it was just there' or 'there was no existence/time before'. You have a choice, a chunk of mass was just there, or an all powerful being was just there. And if you go by complex things being harder to just be happen/be there/evolve…..


You can just assume anything.

That's a flaw in the whole god thing, god can do anything, so its a cop out. This is why I think a superman video game would be lame, and why I am kinda glad the Hiro couldn't just time travel and save Charlie in Heroes, because the writers could use it as an excuse. This is believing what you are told with faith, rather than thinking about it.


Don't know what you mean there.


Again, where did god come from, see above.


Again, the ingredients for bigbang could have been there.


Not going into that because I am not familiar with the whole story, nor know if its true.


I have read plenty of completely fictional novels with lots of detail. Secondly, maybe John wasn't lying, maybe he was a character made up by one of the many many writers of the bible. Or maybe he was misquoted.


I can say whatever I want, doesn't mean it's true.



Again, I can make 1000 names and forge 1000 signatures. (I have a life though lol). You are assuming the bible/john/witnesses is true, because the bible said so, it's a loop.


Same here, I just like finding holes :p

Not begin critical(purely my opinion don't want to start flaming) but it looks to me that these answers are ludicris

From: Boreas

Again, I can make 1000 names and forge 1000 signatures. (I have a life though lol).

Do they make you sign anything in a court room?

From: Boreas

I have read plenty of completely fictional novels with lots of detail. Secondly,
maybe John wasn't lying, maybe he was a character made up by one of the many many writers of the bible. Or maybe he was misquoted.

"Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down and broke his cranium, poked out his right eye, broke both achilles tendons, and took a huge gash in the head from the stainless steel bucket that he was using to get the water" ……doesn't sound quite right. If He was lying, what purpose would those statements serve?

From: Boreas

Also, babies start off as 1 cell.

The DNA is Already set up when the cell is formed. That is an incomplexible( not able to be " evolved " ) piece of the puzzle in which God has set in place.
Do you really want me to believe that our nervous system was just a mishap??? That brainwaves are a fluke? That the "order" in which we live just happened to be there? Think of a SCAR Script. If you switch around two procedures and you call a procedure before it is "declared" then you will get an UNKNOWN IDENTIFIER Error. Same thing here. Study the nervous system/look it up/ etc. It is far too complex to be " A Fluke" As well as the other functions in our body which were all just Flukes as well which go down a list of about o i dnt know 100 main organs or so… and that they all just seem to "Flukefully"(lol) work together to make us work in complete order, everything works exactly right?? Sounds very ludacris..

From: pwnaz0r
Not begin critical(purely my opinion don't want to start flaming) but it looks to me that these answers are ludicris

No it's not ludicrous.

Do they make you sign anything in a court room?

You're missing the point. John, or any 'witness' in the bible is unreliable. Ever notice how there are many different versions of the bible, written and copied and changed by many different monks.

"Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down and broke his cranium, poked out his right eye, broke both achilles tendons, and took a huge gash in the head from the stainless steel bucket that he was using to get the water" ……doesn't sound quite right. If He was lying, what purpose would those statements serve?

Ahh now you've hit the nail on the head. What purpose does the bible serve?
Is it an accurate historical document? No, even the vatican says stuff in the bible isn't true, due to irrefutable scientific evidence. The purpose of the bible is to keep little boys and girls (in sunday school, catholic school, and tucked in bed) following the rules of how to be a decent person. Most of the stories (thats what they are) in the bible have some sort of moral. God saying abracadabra and creating the earth and such is to 'demonstrate' his power, otherwise why would anyone listen. That's one of the reasons why monks have changed the bible over the years, changing/adding/removing stories to fit the morals they wanted to teach.

The DNA is Already set up when the cell is formed. That is an incomplexible( not able to be " evolved " ) piece of the puzzle in which God has set in place.

Do you look exactly like your family members? DNA can change, mutate. Green eyes are a mutation. DNA is a chain made of 4 building blocks, in different patterns (like binary code). It's a really long chain. Which can make really complex things with lots of characteristics. It's easy to change parts of the chain. Little by little, over a time period very few people can wrap their heads around. Isn't it weird how human DNA is 99.9% the same as chimp DNA?

Actually, the fact that things are so complicated, is even more reason to believe that it was formed little by little, rather than in a snap of the fingers and a twitch of the nose.

Do you really want me to believe that our nervous system was just a mishap??? That brainwaves are a fluke? That the "order" in which we live just happened to be there?

No it's not a fluke. Evolution isn't completely random, like a tornado forming a plane. Mutations are random, teeny mutations. When they increase the chance of something living longer, it gets passed down through the generations more than those without. Which is why tigers deliberately have sharp teeth, etc.

Think of a SCAR Script. If you switch around two procedures and you call a procedure before it is "declared" then you will get an UNKNOWN IDENTIFIER Error. Same thing here. Study the nervous system/look it up/ etc. It is far too complex to be " A Fluke" As well as the other functions in our body which were all just Flukes as well which go down a list of about o i dnt know 100 main organs or so… and that they all just seem to "Flukefully"(lol) work together to make us work in complete order, everything works exactly right?? Sounds very ludacris..

Just because it's too complex for you to understand how it was formed (neither do I, and neurologists don't know everything yet), it doesn't mean it can't be formed that way. As I said before, it's not a fluke, it evolved that way for a reason. Also, again, the fact that it is so complex suggests evolving rather than being made all at once (out of clay??).

Everything working exactly right is precisely why it ended up that way. And if god really did create it, he should have done a better job. The appendix?? Testicles on the outside?? Everything is quite messy.

Organs are pretty complex, but on their basic level, they are quite simple. A filter. A sac of acid. A pump. Micro-organisms have similar functions.

When the ancient Greeks (/Romans) didn't know that the earth revolving around the sun so that it appears as though the sun is moving across the sky, they made up the god Helios, who dragged the sun across the sky on his flaming horse driven chariot. Lightning bolts were Zeus getting angry/god bowling, rain is god pissing, etc etc. The human brain needs reasons for everything, which is why we have evolved to be smarter than animals, and are able to figure things out. If we don't know the reason, we make them up, to satisfy our brains without going crazy (where as other animals just accept that things happen). Plain and simple.

Religions are made up to fill the need that people have for order and reason. I prefer science.

Let me ask you something Boreas

From: Boreas

Religions are made up to fill the need that people have for order and reason. I prefer science.

Then what is Science doing in this situation if it's not doing that?





I ran this script

program New;
{.include srl/srl.scar}
var H, Time1, Time2 : integer;
Value : boolean;

function AirPlane : integer;
var I : integer;
begin
MarkTime(Time1);
I := 0;
  repeat
  I := I + 1;
  result := Random(2000) * Random(2000) * Random(2000);
  until(i=100000)or(Result = 20000000)
  If(result = 100000)then
    begin
      Writeln(' Number Found!!');
      TerminateScript;
    end;
  if(i=100000)or(I<100000)then
    begin
      writeln(' Number not Found ');
      Value := false;
    end;
end;

function MilToSeconds : integer;
begin
  result := Time1 /60000;
end;

function MilToSeconds2 : integer;
begin
  result := Time2 /60000;
end;

function TryedTotal : integer;
begin
result := H * 100000;
end;

begin
MarkTime(Time2);
repeat
H := H + 1;
Airplane;
Writeln(' Value is Still = ' + BoolToStr(Value));
Writeln(' The Current Time is ' + (TheTime)  + '');
Writeln(IntToStr(TryedTotal) + ' total times... ');
until(False);
end.

and got this report

Successfully compiled
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 1Times.
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 2Times.
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 3Times.
Successfully executed
Successfully compiled
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 1Times.
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 2Times.
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 3Times.
Successfully executed
Successfully compiled
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 1Times.
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 2Times.
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 3Times.
Successfully executed
Successfully compiled
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 1Times.
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 2Times.
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 3Times.
Successfully executed
Successfully compiled
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 1Times.
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 2Times.
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 3Times.
Successfully executed
Successfully compiled
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 1Times.
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 2Times.
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 3Times.
Successfully executed
Successfully compiled
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 1Times.
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 2Times.
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 3Times.
Successfully executed
Successfully compiled
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 1Times.
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 2Times.
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 3Times.
Successfully executed
Successfully compiled
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 1Times.
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 2Times.
 Number not Found 
 Tryed 3Times.
Successfully executed

^^^^ Thats over 20 million times it did that now i would bet my money that you can't say " Well yea that tornadoe put that airplane together " or " yea everything that ever existed that works perfectly together is like that because its randomly like that" and those aren't even near as big as the numbers would be. They would be much higher considering everything that ever existed put together in working order. Some astronimical number.

Then Ran it 8.7 trillion times… guess what
Number not found



Now First of all, for your argument

From: Boreas

Again, people underestimate how big the universe is. If you had enough junkyards and tornadoes, it would happen eventually. But this is a really big number. People win the lottery, with a really small possibility of winning, but the thing is a lot of people play it that don't win. Just as there are a lot of stars without planets, a lot of planets not suitable for life etc etc.

What does this have to do with the possiblities of that example? Plus to add to that , that was factored in

From: Boreas


No it's not a fluke. Evolution isn't completely random, like a tornado forming a plane. Mutations are random, teeny mutations. When they increase the chance of something living longer, it gets passed down through the generations more than those without. Which is why tigers deliberately have sharp teeth, etc.

Isn't Evolution made up of mutations?

From: Boreas

Same here, I just like finding holes :p

These are not "Holes" you are finding, they are simply " suggestions " Such as

From: Boreas

Again, the ingredients for bigbang could have been there.

and

From: Boreas

I have read plenty of completely fictional novels with lots of detail. Secondly, maybe John wasn't lying, maybe he was a character made up by one of the many many writers of the bible. Or maybe he was misquoted.

See all the maybe's? Thats only two of your replies .
I on the other hand have what you could at least " an argument " about the things we are made of being too complex. Basically everything you say is " Maybe " . Like i said I am basically trying to focus on my school life now(regualr subjects) so i havent had much time to look into it but when i find the time i'll get a website with people who have thoght this out and are better educated. Next time don't use any " maybe's " and see what you come up with :P

From: A Website

…the odds against DNA assembling by chance are 1040,000 to one [according to Fred Hoyle, Evolution from Space,1981]. This is true, but highly misleading. DNA did not assemble purely by chance. It assembled by a combination of chance and the laws of physics. Without the laws of physics as we know them, life on earth as we know it would not have evolved in the short span of six billion years. The nuclear force was needed to bind protons and neutrons in the nuclei of atoms; electromagnetism was needed to keep atoms and molecules together; and gravity was needed to keep the resulting ingredients for life stuck to the surface of the earth.
–Victor J. Stenger

Despite the fact that 99.99% of the scientific community considers evolution of species from other species to be a fact, the creation scientists proclaim that evolution is not a fact but just a theory, and that it is false. The vast majority of scientists who disagree about evolution disagree as to how species evolved, not as to whether they evolved.

Scientific creationists are not impressed that they are in the minority. After all, they note, the entire scientific community has been wrong before. That is true. For example, at one time the geologists were all wrong about the origin of continents. They thought the earth was a solid object. Now they believe that the earth consists of plates. The theory of plate tectonics has replaced the old theory, which is now known to be false. However, when the entire scientific community has been proved to be wrong in the past it has been proved to be wrong by other scientists, not pseudoscientists. They have been proved wrong by others doing empirical investigation, not by others who begin with faith in a religious dogma and who see no need to do any empirical investigation to prove their theory. Erroneous scientific theories have been replaced by better theories, i.e., theories which explain more empirical phenomena and which increase our understanding of the natural world. Plate tectonics not only explained how continents can move, it also opened the door for a greater understanding of how mountain ranges form, how earthquakes are produced, how volcanoes are related to earthquakes, etc. Creationism is not a scientific alternative to natural selection any more than the stork theory is an alternative to sexual reproduction (Hayes 1996). The theory has not led and is unlikely ever to lead to a serious understanding of biological phenomena in the natural world.

Sry For the double post but i am running a script overnight to see if the result is ever true. So far about 78 Million times, always false..

Trials Tryed Reports
Modified from script in above…

Some of these i hada go through the script and add up bc they integers in scar don't go that high

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tryed 10000000( 10 million ) Times
Number found = False
Successfully executed

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tryed 10000000( 10 million ) Times
Number found = False
Successfully executed

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Number found = False
The Current Time is 03:10:59 am <<< —————————-
236700000 total times…(263.7 Million times)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <<< Ran These Two At Same Time
Number found = False
The Current Time is 03:11:26 am <<< —————————-
82600000 total times…(82.6 Million Times)
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Value is Still = False
The Current Time is 09:56:16 am
3.1 billion total times…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Value is Still = False
The Current Time is 09:56:16 am
2.5 billion total times…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Value is Still = False
The Current Time is 09:56:16 am
3.5 billion total times…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Value is Still = False
The Current Time is 09:56:16 am
3.3 billion total times…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Value is Still = False
The Current Time is 09:56:16 am
4.9 billion total times…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wow this is my first time looking through this thread and I am really pissed that I did not look into it… I have gone through and read 95 % of the posts.. I thought Tara pointed out some very good points along with Boreas.
I personally was raised a Catholic and taught that God created everything and should thus be worshiped for everything (another topic, don't get me started) As soon as I was mature enough to start forming my own opinions based on my own reading and learning I realized that the possibility of a God creating this in a perfect sequence is unrealistic.. I do believe we are the result of evolution of bacteria. DNA is capable of mutation and that is how it has come to be as it is today that is the basis behind the idea of survival of the fittest. Forms of life evolve differently and those that are capable of living in the current environment live while others die off.
I am stuck when it comes to who created it all, and I think this forever will be a mystery. Which came first the chicken or the egg? I see no ulterior motive to human life but to live and die…. Religion is just used to give a false sense of security to those expecting life after physicall death.

Honestly if there is one thing you read out of my post I hope it is this, the most important thing to human life today. People believe in religion because it is a security for when they die.. They think since they believe in this there will be a heaven or hell or maybe 9 wives (joke or not..).. Ask a very religious person why they believe what they believe and tell me its not because there parents make them or they think they'll get eternal salvation.

RELIGION = SELFISHNESS

Too tired for now… I'm on this tomorrow though

Wow i normally have to go to eleven communities to have debates and read other thoughts on questions like this. It amazing how much these points help with a 8,000 word essay for the evolution theory and concept of beyond death

As for chicken or the egg, that can be answered (assuming you believe in evolution and species variance lol). They should really change that expression to something that really can't be answered. Like how do you slam a revolving door? At one point, something between a chicken and dinosaur, that was extremely close to a chicken, but not a chicken, popped out an egg containing something slightly different, with a mutation, called a chicken. It's parents were not chickens, it was a chicken. The question is, what about the egg it hatched from? I assume the question is referring to a chicken egg, not caviar. So what is a chicken egg? Is it an egg that comes from a chicken, or an egg that contains a chicken? Look in your fridge, do those eggs contain chickens? I hope not. Yet they are still chicken eggs, because they came from a chicken. So the egg in between the slightly-not-chicken and the first chicken was not a chicken egg. The egg laid by the first chicken was though, and it was the first chicken egg, coming after the first chicken.

From: pwnaz0r
Let me ask you something Boreas


Then what is Science doing in this situation if it's not doing that?

It is doing the same, except with better reasoning.

I ran this script

Why do random(2)*random(2) instead of random(4)? And why in the loop?

^^^^ Thats over 20 million times it did that now i would bet my money that you can't say " Well yea that tornadoe put that airplane together " or " yea everything that ever existed that works perfectly together is like that because its randomly like that" and those aren't even near as big as the numbers would be. They would be much higher considering everything that ever existed put together in working order. Some astronimical number.

You still aren't getting it. It's not completely random. Part of it is, which bothers people who need a story/explanation for everything, see the helios example. The rest comes down to survival of the fittest, and physics concepts such as gravity, magnetism, and valence electrons.

Now First of all, for your argument

What does this have to do with the possiblities of that example? Plus to add to that , that was factored in

It means that just because something has a small chance of happening by itself, it doesn't mean there has to be an all powerful being to get things done.

Isn't Evolution made up of mutations?

Still not getting it. Maybe you should read Origin of Species as well as the stuff they feed you in private school. Mutations are random. Which mutations get passed on (ie EVOLVE) is not random. If it helps, it gets passed on to the next generation. Which is why the complex body works together. It's not like taking a bunch of lego bricks in a bucket and throwing them on the floor into a building all at once.

These are not "Holes" you are finding, they are simply " suggestions " Such as


and


See all the maybe's? Thats only two of your replies .

I am saying maybe to demonstrate the possibilities of things that could have happened besides the stuff that you accept to be true when told.

I on the other hand have what you could at least " an argument " about the things we are made of being too complex.

Think about it. Being complex is actually a point on my side lol. Ask fawki if he wrote Ratz all at once.

Like i said I am basically trying to focus on my school life now(regualr subjects) so i havent had much time to look into it but when i find the time i'll get a website with people who have thoght this out and are better educated.

And if I had the time I could find just as many sites written by scientists.

Basically everything you say is " Maybe " .
Next time don't use any " maybe's " and see what you come up with :P

You under estimate the power of maybe. The power of thinking for yourself, outside the box. The power of not accepting what you are told as true just because you were raised/schooled that way. The power of looking into others reasoning, whether it supports your preconceived beliefs or not. Having strong beliefs is good, having blinders is not. I rest my case.



offtopic: I just noticed that christian republicans like jesus but hate hippies….

From: Boreas

You under estimate the power of maybe. The power of thinking for yourself, outside the box. The power of not accepting what you are told as true just because you were raised/schooled that way. The power of looking into others reasoning, whether it supports your preconceived beliefs or not. Having strong beliefs is good, having blinders is not. I rest my case.

Wow you have summed up my point of view completely! We are given the ability to see, feel, smell, talk, and think all on our own! With these abilities it is our responsibility to determine our own opinions and views of life.

From: Boreas

It is doing the same, except with better reasoning.

What is reasoning but a humans ability to understand and interpret?If you will just assume for one minute that there was a God, wouldn't you think that he would have to put limits somewhere on how much the human brain's capacity to understand?That is basically my point exactly, reasoning is unreliable because it is only a human using his/her mind to Try to understand…

From: Boreas

Why do random(2)*random(2) instead of random(4)? And why in the loop?

The randoms because that is about the possiblitly of the universe coming together by itself and the loops to show how many time in a row it wouldn't find that number.

From: Boreas

You still aren't getting it. It's not completely random. Part of it is, which bothers people who need a story/explanation for everything, see the helios example. The rest comes down to survival of the fittest, and physics concepts such as gravity, magnetism, and valence electrons.

Mutations must have some factor of randomness or else i can't see how you could think that our complexe organs, nervous system, and ability to comprehend could come from an ape. How do you think they catch apes? The put a banana or fruit in a log and when the animal goes to get it. he can't take his hand out of the hole. He is too stupid to know that if he doesn't take his hand out of that log, and these people are coming at him with a net, that he's going to get caught. Another thing. If you asked any evolutionist, do you think he would say that animals have " a soul ". Probably not. If you believe that you don't have " a soul " then you're crazy because humans have the ability to make their own decisions and they know who they are. On the other hand, apes and any other animals act on pure instinct.If we evolved from apes, where did language come from? In my opinion, there is no way that a complex, orderly system of communitcation with nouns, verbs, and all 8 parts of speech could be thought up by a very uncomplex organism. And if we are going deep into this, how did early humans know how to reproduce??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If You're not old enough please do Not read below.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Did they say hey, I'll put this here and do certain things and then maybe in 8-10 months another one of us will pop out? Totally " unreasonable" to me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Boreas

It means that just because something has a small chance of happening by itself, it doesn't mean there has to be an all powerful being to get things done.

True but like i said before. Nothing Happens because of nothing. Now i have heard the comment " O well if you're going to say that " God " was there at the begining then you might as well say that matter or the universe was. Not so. God is considered not "matter" thus he did not need to be made. Again God has put limited knowledge or capacity on the human brain, so he has not revealed why this happened as it did. Matter on the other hand must be created by something. Otherwise, Humans would create Bombs on different countrys by just thinking about it. That would be a disaster. You cannot just think or try to make an airplane appear. It would have to be made out of materials made by the earth.

From: Boreas

I am saying maybe to demonstrate the possibilities of things that could have happened besides the stuff that you accept to be true when told.

I do not accept anything that is a " maybe " in my mind. You are stating them so I decided to point them out. BTW I was not forced in this decision to believe in God in anyway. I decided it for myself. I knew that when I looked at everything that the world has, it could not be there by accident. If there was matter before everything, how could say Hyndrogen " evolve" into H20. Where was gravity made. Why when you drop something does it hit the ground evry single time, no questions asked. If you were asked to bet 1 million dollars that a cup would hit the ground if you dropped it, would you do it. Of course you would. You would be a million dollars richer too. An evolutionist on the other hand, using all the " maybe's " that he does would have to say " maybe that cup won't hit the ground" to stick to his theory of Darwinism. Yet they wouldn't say that because that would be ludicris, thus they are contridicting themselves.

From: Boreas

Think about it. Being complex is actually a point on my side lol. Ask fawki if he wrote Ratz all at once.

Fawki was the " intellegent designer" of ratz, thus proving my point.

From: Boreas

And if I had the time I could find just as many sites written by scientists.

I bet they would use alot of maybe's…

From: Boreas

You under estimate the power of maybe. The power of thinking for yourself, outside the box. The power of not accepting what you are told as true just because you were raised/schooled that way. The power of looking into others reasoning, whether it supports your preconceived beliefs or not. Having strong beliefs is good, having blinders is not. I rest my case.

I do not underestimate the power of maybe. I would not however bet that the same number would pop up out of a hat 1000 times in a row. Yet i may bet it did once.Also, outside of the box is exactly not what you are doing. You are thinking of everything in you're " logic ". And as i stated before, I did look into other religions/beliefs, this is my chosen path.

I think it's funny that evolutionists start out by saying things like "Anything is possible", or "given billions of years, wildly unlikely things are likely to occur."

But then when it comes down to putting forward a rational theory, the first thing they reject are the wildly unlikely coincidences.

So when it comes to defending the possibility of evolution, they are first in line to defend statistically impossible odds, but when it comes time to put on their scientist hat and actually attempt to explain it that is the first thing out the door.

Another of the many hypocrisies of Evolution science.

Well for me it's more of the idea that God is a possibility. I believe mainly that god is a possibility because it's called "Faith" Something that you have to believe in. Another reason i say it's a possibility is because of the evidence that god is real. However, I don't think that everything went down as the bible says it did.

However other things seem more likely, this is mainly because other things are easier to grasp. One thing I don't care for is the idea that if a Killer kills someone and he repents (Truly repents) that he can still go to heaven. If you take someones life you should never be rewarded (Well there are some exceptions which I'm sure someone will point out after reading my post).

This is just a little of my thoughts. Bash if you must, I truly don't care.

The thought of a heaven or hell is whole other side of this but I would just like to ask some of you out there one thing. I don't see the idea of heaven or hell as rational, eternal happiness? I mean I just don't see a heaven as this, I would rather accept the idea that there is another dimension in which you go to. But I just don't understand the idea of an eternity of boredom..Basically if everything is perfect then nothing is fun and enjoyable :eek: .. If you can understand that..

Makes sense and i guess that's right, or maybe everything is more enjoyable some how. XD

If you have never known pain and suffering, you can never know pleasure or true happiness. I think that is one MAJOR reason why we are here. To experience some of that pain and suffering so that we can truly appreciate the joy that can be found in the next life.

There is a saying in Buddhism something to the effect of "If you are born into an explosion, what do you hear?" And the answer is nothing. It means that you develop a baseline based on your experience. If all you ever know is pain and hardship, you can't know what joy is, and vice versa.

My favorite verse in all of scripture is 1 John 4:8. If ye know not love, ye know not God, for God is love.

That sums up everything I have just written very nicely.

From: dlsa
Well for me it's more of the idea that God is a possibility. I believe mainly that god is a possibility because it's called "Faith" Something that you have to believe in. Another reason i say it's a possibility is because of the evidence that god is real. However, I don't think that everything went down as the bible says it did.

However other things seem more likely, this is mainly because other things are easier to grasp. One thing I don't care for is the idea that if a Killer kills someone and he repents (Truly repents) that he can still go to heaven. If you take someones life you should never be rewarded (Well there are some exceptions which I'm sure someone will point out after reading my post).

This is just a little of my thoughts. Bash if you must, I truly don't care.

If you believe in the Bible, which I can tell is not your case, Jesus would have paid the ultamite price for you on the cross so everyone deserves to go to hell (sad sad truth)

From: whales
The thought of a heaven or hell is whole other side of this but I would just like to ask some of you out there one thing. I don't see the idea of heaven or hell as rational, eternal happiness? I mean I just don't see a heaven as this, I would rather accept the idea that there is another dimension in which you go to. But I just don't understand the idea of an eternity of boredom..Basically if everything is perfect then nothing is fun and enjoyable :eek: .. If you can understand that..

not at all what the Bible says ( eternal boredom ). Eternal hapiness and eternal boredom are two different things. Boredom will not be a part of your existence there. You will probably not even know what it is. Think of the best thing you have ever done multiply it by 1000000 and you wont even be there( that is if you believe as you should )

From: tarajunky
If you have never known pain and suffering, you can never know pleasure or true happiness. I think that is one MAJOR reason why we are here. To experience some of that pain and suffering so that we can truly appreciate the joy that can be found in the next life.

There is a saying in Buddhism something to the effect of "If you are born into an explosion, what do you hear?" And the answer is nothing. It means that you develop a baseline based on your experience. If all you ever know is pain and hardship, you can't know what joy is, and vice versa.

My favorite verse in all of scripture is 1 John 4:8. If ye know not love, ye know not God, for God is love.

That sums up everything I have just written very nicely.

I take your a christian :p

Edit: Sry meant to press edit not quote

I believe that god created Adam and Eve and thats how it all began. the reason why the majority of society believe in the theory of evolution is because that is what their teachers tell them and thats what is on TV but if you pay close attention to all that it dose not explain it from the beging and certain critical details.

True that..

This has been quoted a lot, but it should be the main point of the argument.

From: Boreas
You under estimate the power of maybe. The power of thinking for yourself, outside the box. The power of not accepting what you are told as true just because you were raised/schooled that way. The power of looking into others reasoning, whether it supports your preconceived beliefs or not. Having strong beliefs is good, having blinders is not. I rest my case.

Btw, I'm gonna put this in my sig. :p

From: pwnaz0r
Did they say hey, I'll put this here and do certain things and then maybe in 8-10 months another one of us will pop out? Totally " unreasonable" to me.

When a turtle is born, what is the VERY first thing he does? He scrambles toward the water, his parents didn't teach him that, he was born knowing what to do. A baby is born knowing how to breath, they don't even understand English, yet they still know the main functions of life. So "I'll put this here and do certain things and then maybe in 8-10 months another one of us will pop out?" This totally reasonable, we were born knowing what to do. We were born with the understandings of the value of life. There's something inside every living thing that tells it what to do, whether it be your conscience, or God. That is your belief. So by the above quote you're saying that someone tells us how to live our life, that may be true, God may have told the turtle to run like hell for the ocean. Or it might be instinct. If a rabbit is separated from it's family/other rabbits/humans/everything, once it sees a fox, it's instinct is to run like hell.

From: pwnaz0r
Where was gravity made. Why when you drop something does it hit the ground evry single time, no questions asked. If you were asked to bet 1 million dollars that a cup would hit the ground if you dropped it, would you do it. Of course you would. You would be a million dollars richer too. An evolutionist on the other hand, using all the " maybe's " that he does would have to say " maybe that cup won't hit the ground" to stick to his theory of Darwinism. Yet they wouldn't say that because that would be ludicris, thus they are contridicting themselves.

There are questions asked. "If you were asked to bet 1 million dollars that a cup would hit the ground if you dropped it, would you do it. Of course you would." There is a maybe in everything, maybe gravity stopped, maybe a supernova suddenly happened and the ground disapeared, maybe the universe stops, maybe the "Big Collide" happens and all the planets etc collide due to their gravity between each other, maybe there is a God, maybe there isn't, maybe the ground suddenly turns into lava! The fact is that we don't know…There are such small chances of these things happenings that humans tend to just forget about them. So the cup wouldn't hit the ground every single time! There is such a minute, minute, minute chance that something out of the ordinary will happen, so humans just don't even consider it anymore.

The whole fact of the matter is that we don't know, and nothing is ever certain for as long as we live. We will not ever be sure what will happen, so we may as well focus our energy into living, second after second, minute after minute, day after day, year after year. It is called "The Devil's Arithmetic" (Referring to the Holocaust). I will argue with more points tomorrow, because it's 12:00 at the moment, and my head is fuzzy…:p

-Dunceiam

Edit—
It took me so long to write my post that 2 more posts were made for which me to argue!

From: Dude above, forgot his name...
I believe that god created Adam and Eve and thats how it all began. the reason why the majority of society believe in the theory of evolution is because that is what their teachers tell them and thats what is on TV but if you pay close attention to all that it dose not explain it from the beging and certain critical details.

Well, I am only in 7th grade, and we have not even touched evolution, genes, etc. And I don't remember ever being told by a teacher in what to believe (except my anti-Bush teacher :p) Religious schools teach about Adam and Eve, and I know that there are less religious schools then other schools. But then again by what you're saying, 70% (% of people who are Christian) of the people should believe in Adam and Eve. Well, the poll seems to differ. There are more shows on television which publicize Christian beliefs then there are shows that talk about evolution. Trust me, the only shows I like to watch are scientific shows, and they are pretty hard to find..:p. So I'm not sure that, "teachers tell them and thats what is on TV" really shows a point about why so many people believe in evolution.

From: Dunceiam

Well, I am only in 7th grade, and we have not even touched evolution, genes, etc. And I don't remember ever being told by a teacher in what to believe (except my anti-Bush teacher :p) Religious schools teach about Adam and Eve, and I know that there are less religious schools then other schools. But then again by what you're saying, 70% (% of people who are Christian) of the people should believe in Adam and Eve. Well, the poll seems to differ. There are more shows on television which publicize Christian beliefs then there are shows that talk
about evolution. Trust me, the only shows I like to watch are scientific shows, and they are pretty hard to find..:p. So I'm not sure that, "teachers tell them and thats what is on TV" really shows a point about why so many people believe in evolution.

plz do not reply then as this is probably too complex for you to understand( nothing against you just no 7th grader probably knows anything about complex organs..)

I have no idea why you put that in your sig as he is describing himself. He was taught that from the begining and i doubt he even accepts the possiblity that there is a God no matter what points I/ we bring against him( and he is the one who is not thinking outside the box since my opinion has the minority). From what i see, this argument is basically me and tajunky vs all except for the few that have posted small thoughts. I am not he to change Boreas's mind as he seems strong in his belief and it is simply not my job. My job is to get the word out there and to try to prove my point. the only reason i reply to his arguements is to try to prove to as many as I can that my side of the story is in fact possible.

From: Dunceiam

There are questions asked. "If you were asked to bet 1 million dollars that a cup would hit the ground if you dropped it, would you do it. Of course you would." There is a maybe in everything, maybe gravity stopped, maybe a supernova suddenly happened and the ground disapeared, maybe the universe stops, maybe the "Big Collide" happens and all the planets etc collide due to their gravity between each other, maybe there is a God, maybe there isn't, maybe the ground suddenly turns into lava! The fact is that we don't know…There are such small chances of these things happenings that humans tend to just forget about them. So the cup wouldn't hit the ground every single time! There is such a minute, minute, minute chance that something out of the ordinary will happen, so humans just don't even consider it anymore.

please.. that is insane.. gravity and these other things you stated.. wow.. there is no way in the world you would bet against gravity unless you are insane

It may be possible for you to understand these arguements but you haveto have at least basic knowledge from both sides of the arguements.

Well, like I said before, this is all called "Faith" something you must believe in, while each person here can believe in something different, one thing we all know to be true is that SRL rocks and so does SCAR.

Note to Boreas : My arguement to your statements are up some… plz reply to it.

From: tarajunky
If you have never known pain and suffering, you can never know pleasure or true happiness. I think that is one MAJOR reason why we are here. To experience some of that pain and suffering so that we can truly appreciate the joy that can be found in the next life.

There is a saying in Buddhism something to the effect of "If you are born into an explosion, what do you hear?" And the answer is nothing. It means that you develop a baseline based on your experience. If all you ever know is pain and hardship, you can't know what joy is, and vice versa.

My favorite verse in all of scripture is 1 John 4:8. If ye know not love, ye know not God, for God is love.

That sums up everything I have just written very nicely.

If God is the "Almighty" and his powers have no limits, then why then is it necessary for any pain and any suffering and furthermore for life on Earth as it is?!? Why not then, with this power, just put everyone into this perfect heaven?


Pwnanzor,
is it necessary to judge people by their age or any other factor besides their knowledge of the issue at hand? This is an important issue to all and the sooner you begin to learn and take part in it the better.

First of all, you totally avoided my points in my previous post. :p

From: pwnaz0r
plz do not reply then as this is probably too complex for you to understand( nothing against you just no 7th grader probably knows anything about complex organs..)

I have no idea why you put that in your sig as he is describing himself. He was taught that from the begining and i doubt he even accepts the possiblity that there is a God no matter what points I/ we bring against him( and he is the one who is not thinking outside the box since my opinion has the minority). From what i see, this argument is basically me and tajunky vs all except for the few that have posted small thoughts. I am not he to change Boreas's mind as he seems strong in his belief and it is simply not my job. My job is to get the word out there and to try to prove my point. the only reason i reply to his arguements is to try to prove to as many as I can that my side of the story is in fact possible.

It may be possible for you to understand these arguements but you haveto have at least basic knowledge from both sides of the arguements.

Wait, so now you're saying that just because I'm a 7th grader. I'm not "smart" enough to participate in this discussion. Even if I'm years ahead of other 7th graders. You don't have to be old to be smart. There is a 12 year-old who's in college at the moment. And since he's young, you're then saying that he shouldn't be smart.

From: pwnaz0r
"He was taught that from the begining and i doubt he even accepts the possiblity that there is a God no matter what points I/ we bring against him"

He doesn't accept the possibility of a God, because what proof is there? There are many theories of evolution. But religion is based on a book which has been altered by so many people, that almost all of it is not the original words of the writer. Ever heard of the war which was started because a king had misplaced 1 comma in a paragraph? Something so small such as 1 word mistranslated in the Bible, could change the beliefs of many people for 1000's of years. If something gets older then a couple-hundred years, then it has technically became invalid.

From: pwnaz0r
please.. that is insane.. gravity and these other things you stated.. wow.. there is no way in the world you would bet against gravity unless you are insane

That is the whole point of my argument. Even you have to agree that there is an extremely small chance of gravity stopping, but there's still a chance. Even if it's extremely small. I'm not saying that you should bet against it. All I was saying is that you can never be certain of anything. Which is where the "maybe" comes in.

From: Boreas
You under estimate the power of maybe. The power of thinking for yourself, outside the box. The power of not accepting what you are told as true just because you were raised/schooled that way. The power of looking into others reasoning, whether it supports your preconceived beliefs or not. Having strong beliefs is good, having blinders is not. I rest my case.

How does this describe himself?

From: pwnaz0r
I have no idea why you put that in your sig as he is describing himself.

From the parts I highlighted, he's saying that even though ya got strong beliefs, it's good to look into others beliefs. And accept what others think. I accept what you think, you should accept what I think. You should let others choose the path in which they want to believe, not force them to believe in a religion. We should all check out Buddhism, Daoism, Confucianism, etc. We should appreciate the paths in which others follow.

I would then get some quotes from Buddha, but I'm too lazy…:p

Edit—

From: whales
Pwnanzor,is it necessary to judge people by their age or any other factor besides their knowledge of the issue at hand? This is an important issue to all and the sooner you begin to learn and take part in it the better.

Thank you whales…:p

From: whales
If God is the "Almighty" and his powers have no limits, then why then is it necessary for any pain and any suffering and furthermore for life on Earth as it is?!? Why not then, with this power, just put everyone into this perfect heaven?

For all we know, life on Earth may just be a test. If you pass the test you may go to Heaven, if you don't you may go to Hell…Just a point…

-Dunceiam

Man wow i am saying that you admitted yourself that you have not been taught anything about complex organs etc. And you obviously did not read my post very well as every point he brought against me I countered. He is describing himself because no matter how much evidence i brought against him, he is not gogin to change his mind ( as i said before) i will reply more thoroughly tonight when my parents are not about to be home when im not supposed to be on…

EDIT: I did not say in anyway that you are not smart and I agree that he should be looking into this at an early age. But he did not bother to read the whole conversation ( from what I can tell ) and probably has limited knowledge about this , not because he is " dumb" but because I don't know many 7th graders ( other than your friend in college :)) that have researched thoroughly the points of both arguements, thought it through, analyzed, etc. On the other hand, Boreas brings some points to the table that are only an Evolutionists point of view and I am trying to get him to at least consider the points of my arguement as I have already put myself in his shoes and tryed the opposite.

please.. that is insane.. gravity and these other things you stated.. wow.. there is no way in the world you would bet against gravity unless you are insane

It may be possible for you to understand these arguements but you haveto have at least basic knowledge from both sides of the arguements.

I don't think he is literally going against the idea of gravity, he is just stating that we have to realize that there are things in this universe that we do not know about and that it is possible for something random to happen.

From: pwnaz0r
Man wow i am saying that you admitted yourself that you have not been taught anything about complex organs etc. And you obviously did not read my post very well as every point he brought against me I countered. He is describing himself because no matter how much evidence i brought against him, he is not gogin to change his mind ( as i said before) i will reply more thoroughly tonight when my parents are not about to be home when im not supposed to be on…

EDIT: I did not say in anyway that you are not smart and I agree that he should be looking into this at an early age. But he did not bother to read the whole conversation ( from what I can tell ) and probably has limited knowledge about this , not because he is " dumb" but because I don't know many 7th graders ( other than your friend in college ) that have researched thoroughly the points of both arguements, thought it through, analyzed, etc.

Lol, trust me I read every post in this thread. Took me a couple hours to do so too…:) But yes, I haven't been taughtanything above 9th grade level (I take advanced classes). But when I get back from school, I teach myself using my resources, books, television, internet. I've basically constructed a whole curriculum for myself. So I have the basic knowledge of both arguments.

From: whales
I don't think he is literally going against the idea of gravity, he is just stating that we have to realize that there are things in this universe that we do not know about and that it is possible for something random to happen.

We think too much alike…:) (Not saying that you think like a 7th grader…)

-Dunceiam

well again I can't respond well since I have ten seconds while my parents are gone to store but I am a 9th grader taker 12 grade class's as well and studying many collegiate courses/topics online so I know what you mean. Yet I have spent hours preparing arguements, studying books ,etc ( ok i gotta go my mom is horribly mad now she caught me)

From: whales
If God is the "Almighty" and his powers have no limits, then why then is it necessary for any pain and any suffering and furthermore for life on Earth as it is?!? Why not then, with this power, just put everyone into this perfect heaven?

It's just like I said before. If you were born into a perfect world, how would you know it was perfect? It would just be 'normal' to you. Maybe you would get bored, who knows?

That's why the duality is so important. Without suffering you don't know peace. Without pain you don't know pleasure.

I live in the US. It's not perfect, but it's a pretty easy life, and is infinitely better than living in some third world nightmare. And yet there are many many people that commit suicide because they are 'unhappy' with their life. Perhaps if they had an opportunity to live in true suffering and poverty they would have respected and enjoyed what they had more than they did. But since they were born into a life where everything is handed to you on a silver platter, the first sign of trouble or doubt or rejection is enough to send them off the deep end.

oh crap, i lost my whole post…
basically…
program =
if(x=5) then
if(x=6) then
writeln("this will never happen");
writeln("haha, i was right);

# of reps huge=unprobable becomes probable

life isnt perfect, and set up… we contain dna that is only usefull to bacteria, we no use no more

uggg.. and i had such good things to say.

From: pwnaz0r
What is reasoning but a humans ability to understand and interpret?If you will just assume for one minute that there was a God, wouldn't you think that he would have to put limits somewhere on how much the human brain's capacity to understand?That is basically my point exactly, reasoning is unreliable because it is only a human using his/her mind to Try to understand…


The randoms because that is about the possiblitly of the universe coming together by itself and the loops to show how many time in a row it wouldn't find that number.


Mutations must have some factor of randomness or else i can't see how you could think that our complexe organs, nervous system, and ability to comprehend could come from an ape. How do you think they catch apes? The put a banana or fruit in a log and when the animal goes to get it. he can't take his hand out of the hole. He is too stupid to know that if he doesn't take his hand out of that log, and these people are coming at him with a net, that he's going to get caught. Another thing. If you asked any evolutionist, do you think he would say that animals have " a soul ". Probably not. If you believe that you don't have " a soul " then you're crazy because humans have the ability to make their own decisions and they know who they are. On the other hand, apes and any other animals act on pure instinct.If we evolved from apes, where did language come from? In my opinion, there is no way that a complex, orderly system of communitcation with nouns, verbs, and all 8 parts of speech could be thought up by a very uncomplex organism. And if we are going deep into this, how did early humans know how to reproduce??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If You're not old enough please do Not read below.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Did they say hey, I'll put this here and do certain things and then maybe in 8-10 months another one of us will pop out? Totally " unreasonable" to me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


True but like i said before. Nothing Happens because of nothing. Now i have heard the comment " O well if you're going to say that " God " was there at the begining then you might as well say that matter or the universe was. Not so. God is considered not "matter" thus he did not need to be made. Again God has put limited knowledge or capacity on the human brain, so he has not revealed why this happened as it did. Matter on the other hand must be created by something. Otherwise, Humans would create Bombs on different countrys by just thinking about it. That would be a disaster. You cannot just think or try to make an airplane appear. It would have to be made out of materials made by the earth.


I do not accept anything that is a " maybe " in my mind. You are stating them so I decided to point them out. BTW I was not forced in this decision to believe in God in anyway. I decided it for myself. I knew that when I looked at everything that the world has, it could not be there by accident. If there was matter before everything, how could say Hyndrogen " evolve" into H20. Where was gravity made. Why when you drop something does it hit the ground evry single time, no questions asked. If you were asked to bet 1 million dollars that a cup would hit the ground if you dropped it, would you do it. Of course you would. You would be a million dollars richer too. An evolutionist on the other hand, using all the " maybe's " that he does would have to say " maybe that cup won't hit the ground" to stick to his theory of Darwinism. Yet they wouldn't say that because that would be ludicris, thus they are contridicting themselves.



Fawki was the " intellegent designer" of ratz, thus proving my point.



I bet they would use alot of maybe's…



I do not underestimate the power of maybe. I would not however bet that the same number would pop up out of a hat 1000 times in a row. Yet i may bet it did once.Also, outside of the box is exactly not what you are doing. You are thinking of everything in you're " logic ". And as i stated before, I did look into other religions/beliefs, this is my chosen path.

I think that you should take a look at this, because i think that this is a general view of all " creationalists ". remeber now this is only General I see nothing wrong with it as in any of it not possible , all seems logical to me.. I am still waiting on some1 to respond to this

Yep, I have nothing against it. Although, I could put together all the arguments for the evolution side, and produce a somewhat equal but opposite copy of this..:p Oh, and plus rep+ for you, for this wonderful argument we had..:)
I personally don't see a need to post a copy for the evolutionists side..:)

But this debate has been going for thousands of years, and will go on for thousands of years. So in Mythbusters terms, "Plausible".

-Dunceiam

:P, I'm only in grade seven so I'm not into that stuff yet. But i mean, i don't care how we came to be, live life as it is, don't dwell on the past!

If there was matter before everything, how could say Hyndrogen " evolve" into H20.

Hydrogen did not evolve in to water, but rather because of the electron make up of Hydrogen and oxygen they share electrons to gain a stable state..

I do not underestimate the power of maybe. I would not however bet that the same number would pop up out of a hat 1000 times in a row. Yet i may bet it did once.

You are underestimating the power of maybe. We have been trying to tell you that anything is possible with a maybe factor. It is possible to draw a number from a hat 100 times out of 100 this is a maybe. It is possible for that cup to not drop to the ground because of a maybe. If you look at Dunce's post you will see he list reasons.

From: tarajunky
It's just like I said before. If you were born into a perfect world, how would you know it was perfect? It would just be 'normal' to you. Maybe you would get bored, who knows?

That's why the duality is so important. Without suffering you don't know peace. Without pain you don't know pleasure.

I live in the US. It's not perfect, but it's a pretty easy life, and is infinitely better than living in some third world nightmare. And yet there are many many people that commit suicide because they are 'unhappy' with their life. Perhaps if they had an opportunity to live in true suffering and poverty they would have respected and enjoyed what they had more than they did. But since they were born into a life where everything is handed to you on a silver platter, the first sign of trouble or doubt or rejection is enough to send them off the deep end.

The reason we have to endure pain before pleasure is because this is how we have been made and evolved into. But if God did create us then he made everything about us and therefore he made it so we have to feel pain before pleasure.. Why would you do this when you could make it all perfect without the pain?
I agree with what you are saying, America is the best country to live in and many people take for granted the freedoms that we have.
But you did not answer my question.. If the God you talk of is the almighty and all powerful, then why is it necessary to have pain suffering etc.. Why not just create a world where it is not necessary to have to endure pain before happiness? Why not just send every one to the perfect heaven? I know this question is unanswerable but this is why I think the bible and its idea of an all powerful god is not plausible.

:P, I'm only in grade seven so I'm not into that stuff yet. But i mean, i don't care how we came to be, live life as it is, don't dwell on the past!

But do you plan on living forever?

From: whales

The reason we have to endure pain before pleasure is because this is how we have been made and evolved into. But if God did create us then he made everything about us and therefore he made it so we have to feel pain before pleasure.. Why would you do this when you could make it all perfect without the pain?
I agree with what you are saying, America is the best country to live in and many people take for granted the freedoms that we have.
But you did not answer my question.. If the God you talk of is the almighty and all powerful, then why is it necessary to have pain suffering etc.. Why not just create a world where it is not necessary to have to endure pain before happiness? Why not just send every one to the perfect heaven? I know this question is unanswerable but this is why I think the bible and its idea of an all powerful god is not plausible.

Hmm. So let's say I want to have a child that only experiences pleasure. I guess I could take it immediately after birth and start giving it all kinds of illegal pleasure-inducing drugs. The baby wouldn't really understand what was going on, but it would be pleasureable. And I could keep them in this narcotic induced haze for several years, probably, if I kept switching up the drugs to use. And then once all the different drugs run out and I have to start worrying about withdrawal (pain), I could always put the kid to sleep never to wake back up.

Now, according to your criteria, that child would only experience pleasure. It would never experience pain. Does that sound like a good life to you?

I think the answer to your question is that there is MORE to life than pleasure and pain. Like being able to learn, to love, to grow, to stop to smell the roses, etc.

And perhaps putting everyone into a "perfect" world would interfere with our ability to participate in those other -more important- things.

Like how can you fall in love with someone if everyone is exactly the same? You couldn't, you'd have to fall in love with everyone, or it would just be completely random who walked up to you first.

The fact that God IS all powerful suggests that our current existence is optimal for his own purposes. The fact that most think this life is sub-optimal is not due to a design error, but due to our own limited understanding.

Well put Tarajunky. I think that he has about summed up your point.( I am school in computer class so I will be brief.) I think that If you actually knew what true pleasure was , you would not want to live on this earth. Many Christians struggle with this alot. Many do not like the idea of death. What would the explination of Death be?( I am curious to see a evolutionist Point of view). Surely Over 3000 years we would have " evolved " to stop it? But yet, history runs in a circular motion, humans throughout history make the same mistakes, etc. Scientists have been wrong. many times in fact. I have not yet counted how many time they have changed their arguements but I believe it is too many to count.Weren't scientists wrong about the world being flat? About how humans were made( near the 1700's ). And guess what. Darwin's theory was made around the 1700's. I heard it stated earyl by Boreas that " Isn't it wierd how human DNA is 99.9% like Ape DNA? I would have to reply to this that If you are going to assume this, why not say it is like Lion DNA? They both have the both structures and are both composed of the same materials. See this is what scientists use as a misdirector. The fact that it is DNA in itself is 98 % of that and the fact that ape walk on two legs and have the same systems ( heart, mind ). These things should not be factored into this as we could have just as easily said that we came from fish, or elephants, or birds. Since those should not be factored in we have to look at different things other than DNA and darwin's theory. Darwin himself stated that not much is known about the human body at that time. That is why DNA should not be factored in.

On another note, (back to the current topic) I do not believe that you have adequatly researched this. True happiness to evolutionists is both " A hiccup " or " illusion " in your brain, yet you are trying to use it in your arguement so which is it? Decide whether it is a "illusion"( not real humans don't really feel it) or it is real( that would mean we evolved to have them)

EDIT : Yeah, now that I read your post fully I know you have not adequatly researched it. It is not God's fault that man sinned. God did not intend for evil to enter the world. The story goes that the Devil tempted man and man gave in. please
read the story now before you reply again…

Okay, now it's my turn! :p
First of all, what story am I supposed to read? God did not intend for evil to enter the world. The story goes that the Devil tempted man and man gave in.?

From: tarajunky
Hmm. So let's say I want to have a child that only experiences pleasure. I guess I could take it immediately after birth and start giving it all kinds of illegal pleasure-inducing drugs. The baby wouldn't really understand what was going on, but it would be pleasureable. And I could keep them in this narcotic induced haze for several years, probably, if I kept switching up the drugs to use. And then once all the different drugs run out and I have to start worrying about withdrawal (pain), I could always put the kid to sleep never to wake back up.

This is one of many methods of "pleasure" that has many consequences, including death. A better story would be…Take the kid right after birth to your big fancy mansion, with maids, everything a baby could ever want. That baby grows up without a worry in the world. That baby turns into a kid. That kid turns into an adult. That adult turns into an elderly person. That person dies. The End.

From: tarajunky
And perhaps putting everyone into a "perfect" world would interfere with our ability to participate in those other -more important- things.

Like how can you fall in love with someone if everyone is exactly the same? You couldn't, you'd have to fall in love with everyone, or it would just be completely random who walked up to you first.

Being in a perfect world doesn't have to mean that everybody is the same. It could mean that your, "true love" is near you. Or everybody is accepted not on their looks, but emotions. I don't know, and I keep saying.

From: Dunceiam
And we never will…

The explanation of death? Well I don't consider myself an evolutionist, or a religious person, I just like finding holes as Boreas said earlier. I think of life as a time in which something should live, reproduce, die. The main goal of life is to reproduce, that is why God or human nature made sex so pleasurable, to encourage people to reproduce. Therefore helping out the species. Humans on the other hand have taken over the food-chain and now think of sex as something that is not needed (for some) or we just use it for the pleasure factor.

From: pwnaz0r
Weren't scientists wrong about the world being flat?

Who said that scientists were the ones who brought the idea up? Sailors weren't considered scientists yet they still believed that they would sail right off the edge if they went too far.

From: pwnaz0r
They both have the both structures and are both composed of the same materials.

They are comprised of the same "materials" but the "materials" are put together in a different "order".

From: pwnaz0r
The fact that it is DNA in itself is 98 % of that and the fact that ape walk on two legs and have the same systems ( heart, mind ). These things should not be factored into this as we could have just as easily said that we came from fish, or elephants, or birds.

You're missing the whole point, the fact they they have a heart, brain, etc, almost same genetic makeup should be factored in. If you think back enough, we may have come from fish. Then when food in the sea got scarce, fish mutated to become land animals, then they evolved into *blank*, which evolved into *blank*. Going on like this for millions/billions of years.

Heh, it's basically Whale and I vs pwnaz0r and tarajunky…:p

-Dunceiam

Hmm where to start.. Firstly I want to get this straight to mainly Pwn but to whoever else is going on this assumption.. I am not a "evolutionist" some of my views may reflect the ideas and statements of an evolutionist. But I am merely a person trying to find the truth for my self based solely on what I have read and learned from others. I consider myself some where in between an evolutionist and a spiritual person. I have been raised my entire life in a conservative catholic family. So I do know the bible and I do fully understand Christianity.

Secondly,

Hmm. So let's say I want to have a child that only experiences pleasure. I guess I could take it immediately after birth and start giving it all kinds of illegal pleasure-inducing drugs. The baby wouldn't really understand what was going on, but it would be pleasureable. And I could keep them in this narcotic induced haze for several years, probably, if I kept switching up the drugs to use. And then once all the different drugs run out and I have to start worrying about withdrawal (pain), I could always put the kid to sleep never to wake back up.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what my point is. Any ways this world is not perfect and those drugs would not give you a perfectly pleasurable experience, due to the many side affects to drugs, I could google and list all those but I would rather get off of this subject.. Please look at my statement from an unbiased perspective! What I am trying to state is that if God did create this world then why is it necessary to even have pain. Also think that if God created this world then he created all those emotions that you did mention like love etc etc… Why not (coming from God's view) just create the perfect emotions?!? No need for hate and pain.. Just love, peace and happiness! When reading this think about God as the All Powerful!

What would the explination of Death be?( I am curious to see a evolutionist Point of view). Surely Over 3000 years we would have " evolved " to stop it?

This from wikipedia, you can see more by typing in death at wikipedia.com

Ultimately, every cause of death in animals does so by breaking the oxygen cycle, cutting off oxygen flow to the brain.

Don't worry we are trying to evolve and "escape" death! Try checking out the US census, the lifespan of the average human has gone up dramatically since the early 1900's and since the beginning of man.. But you have to think about disease and things that too are evolving to stay alive. There are so many factors..

Scientists have been wrong. many times in fact. I have not yet counted how many time they have changed their arguements but I believe it is too many to count.Weren't scientists wrong about the world being flat?

Yes, you are right scientist have been wrong and will continue for the most part to fail and be wrong in more than half of what they do and say. But if it were not for that other small part that is right you would not have these computers to debate on. And also yes scientist did at one point say the world is flat, but did the Holy church at one time deny that the sun was the center of the Earth? They were positive the earth was and they denounced Galileo for speaking for this mans Nicolaus Copernicus idea.

" Isn't it wierd how human DNA is 99.9% like Ape DNA? I would have to reply to this that If you are going to assume this, why not say it is like Lion DNA? They both have the both structures and are both composed of the same materials. See this is what scientists use as a misdirector. The fact that it is DNA in itself is 98 % of that and the fact that ape walk on two legs and have the same systems ( heart, mind ). These things should not be factored into this as we could have just as easily said that we came from fish, or elephants, or birds. Since those should not be factored in we have to look at different things other than DNA and darwin's theory. Darwin himself stated that not much is known about the human body at that time. That is why DNA should not be factored in.

I am not sure that you understand the purpose and use of DNA..DNA is the "code" of all living things. Inside each cell of every living things is this DNA which tells each cell its functions. I cannot even contemplate why you would even say that our DNA is like a lions because it is 99% like an apes. The DNA of a lion is completely different. That is why a lion has 4 legs and shaggy mane (lol). You can tell that our DNA and the DNA of an ape are similar because they walk up right with two legs and opposable thumb. At the time Darwin stated this they had no idea of the complexity of DNA, thats why DNA should be factored in!

Also I'm not siding with any one this isn't a game this is an opportunity to learn new things and to express my opinion.

I am now working more on scripting as I will probably not be posting in the is thread as much but, I will say one thing.. Do you think that you maybe over estimate the power of maybe? You keep feeding me this " O yea well a hat could be drawn out of a hat 100 times in a row". This number (100) is not even close to the possibility of everything coming to be how it it. Try something like 78 billion. Now comeon. I don't wanna hear you say maybe a number would be drawn out of a hat that many times. Maybe(or definatly) it wouldn't. If there is no God and he doesn't choose for that number to be picked then there would be a 1 in 78 billion chance that that number would be picked. NO WAY

From: Someone...
What would the explination of Death be?( I am curious to see a evolutionist Point of view). Surely Over 3000 years we would have " evolved " to stop it?

"Surely over 3000 years we would have evolved to stop it?" We are not finished "evolving" Soon humans will have larger brains (using 'em more), weaker legs (That's what cars are for), etc, etc. Scientists are creating ways to expand the humans life span, and they may eventually discover how to make a person immortal.

From: Someone else
Ultimately, every cause of death in animals does so by breaking the oxygen cycle, cutting off oxygen flow to the brain.

I'm not a medical expert, but what if you had liver cancer? Or a disease that made it impossible for your stomach to digest your food (malnutrition), and create energy. That wouldn't technically cut off oxygen to the brain…It would eventually cut off the oxygen to the brain, but it would first use the fat storage in your muscles, then your organs, etc. So the oxygen to the brain would really be cut off at the same time that everything else stopped functioning, so even if your brain had the neccesary oxygen. There are probably a few flaws in my statement because, "I'm a 7th grader :p"

From: pwnaz0r
You keep feeding me this " O yea well a hat could be drawn out of a hat 100 times in a row". This number (100) is not even close to the possibility of everything coming to be how it it. Try something like 78 billion. Now comeon. I don't wanna hear you say maybe a number would be drawn out of a hat that many times.

I strongly agree with you that a number couldn't/wouldn't be pulled 78 billion times. But like you wanted me not to say, it is possible…Good luck with the scripting by the way. +rep for all of you…:p

-Dunceiam

:p ok well that is my point on the table and my ending point for awhile at least.. If you believe those odds can happen.. Go for the lottery 200 times in a row.. If yu don't think thats the right number.. Then you don't trust you're own scientists. Or you can run the script earlier in the script I stated which is only 1 in like 20 million( If you think you have a better chance :p). If you say thats not right.. Then you underestimate the size of the universe

Good discussion! Learned some good stuff :)

:p and another point ( brought up in my science class ) energy can't be eliminated and can't be created( by human means for both of these ). The question I would ask an evolutionist would be how do you think it got here. No a better question would be HOW ELSE could it have gotten here?

You could ask the same thing about God, how did he come into existence? Now I have a subscription a the magazine, "Popular Science" And in this issue, they talked about "Plasma Gasification". The articles basically about how people are starting to use plasma gasification to "vaporize" trash.

From: PopSci
The entire thing takes up about as much space as a two-car
garage, surprisingly compact for a machine that can consume any type of waste-from dirty diapers to chemical weapons-by annihilating toxic materials in a process as old as the universe it self. Called plasma gasification, it works a little like the big bang, only backward (you get nothing from something.) Inside a sealed vessel made of stainless steel and filled with a stable gas-either pure nitrogen or, as in this case, ordinary air-a 650-volt current passing between two electrodes rips electrons from the air, converting the gas to plasma. Current flows continuously through this newly formed plasma, creating a field of extremely intense energy very much like lightning. The radiant energy of the plasma arc is so powerful, it disintegrates trash into it's constituent elements by tearing apart molecular bonds. The system is capable of breaking down pretty much anything except nuclear waste, the isotopes of which are indestructible.

Well, that quote explains quite a lot. And may hold the reason of your question.

From: PopSci
I've watched Lynch operate the converter for nearly an hour, and I'm still stunned to see no smoke, no flames, no ash, no pollution of any kind.

Reinforcing the "something to nothing"

Well, may explain some stuff…:)

-Dunceiam

From: pwnaz0r
:p and another point ( brought up in my science class ) energy can't be eliminated and can't be created( by human means for both of these ). The question I would ask an evolutionist would be how do you think it got here. No a better question would be HOW ELSE could it have gotten here?

Nuclear reaction

Well the first post can be xplained pretty easily. This is the opposite of the big bang thus able to happen. Plus the energy does not dissapear nor does the article say it does. God could have been in existance because If he does exisist, He is all powerful. Energy and apes (lol) are not.


As for this

From: whales
Nuclear reaction

lol?

Where would you get the things to make a nuclear reaction? That requires energy to do. Ever heard the phrase it takes money to make money? Well it takes energy to make energy.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what my point is. Any ways this world is not perfect and those drugs would not give you a perfectly pleasurable experience, due to the many side affects to drugs, I could google and list all those but I would rather get off of this subject.. Please look at my statement from an unbiased perspective! What I am trying to state is that if God did create this world then why is it necessary to even have pain. Also think that if God created this world then he created all those emotions that you did mention like love etc etc… Why not (coming from God's view) just create the perfect emotions?!? No need for hate and pain.. Just love, peace and happiness! When reading this think about God as the All Powerful!

What would be the point of living if there was nothing to spice our lives up (pain hate stuff like that). It would be great for a few years, but then it would get boring.

From: hey321
What would be the point of living if there was nothing to spice our lives up (pain hate stuff like that). It would be great for a few years, but then it would get boring.

I agree that with out pain hate and those other effects this world would be boring but….
Your not thinking of it from the perspective of a god capable of creating anything any way he wants with the effects and emotions that he wants it to have! If this is what is belived of god then I am asking: Why not create a perfect world where pain is not necessary to make things fun or pleasuring. Expand your thinking! Anything is possible!

From: whales
I agree that with out pain hate and those other effects this world would be boring but….
Your not thinking of it from the perspective of a god capable of creating anything any way he wants with the effects and emotions that he wants it to have! If this is what is belived of god then I am asking: Why not create a perfect world where pain is not necessary to make things fun or pleasuring. Expand your thinking! Anything is possible!

Not necessarily true, anyways! Why dwell on the paste of what already is?

Not necessarily true? Whats not necessarily true? That god could do this? Please explain..

Pretty off-topic…But just saying, I'm in Mont Treblanc, Montreal, Canada for the week. So I'll re-join the discussion when I get home!

Sorry for the off-topic…:p

-Dunceiam

From: whales
I agree that with out pain hate and those other effects this world would be boring but….
Your not thinking of it from the perspective of a god capable of creating anything any way he wants with the effects and emotions that he wants it to have! If this is what is belived of god then I am asking: Why not create a perfect world where pain is not necessary to make things fun or pleasuring. Expand your thinking! Anything is possible!

God you really don't know the story do you? I really suggest you read it. I hate when people say that(was just browsing through).

From: Mutant Squirrle
evolved how else would all animals have the same BASIC structure (mammals and organs) sure some have different functions and some use organs differently but its all the same basic layout

because they have the same fucking designer… don't you think it is strange that all cars have the same basic structure? they must have fucking evolved from little pieces of scrap metal, right?

The 'evolved' from the first car. They all have the same basic components (hybrids etc excluded). The have different features for different environments and markets.

If god is the designer, then he designed sea cucumbers and fungi too, which are completely different from mammals. Don't even try to argue on this, you can go ahead and believe what you want, but don't try explaining your beliefs, because you will just fall flat.

[Note]I'm not really sure how to word this, but I'll give it a shot :) [/Note]

Yeah, I agree with Boreas. Think about this, every single factory in the world uses an assembly line, automated or manually operated. The first assembly line was used by Ford to make cars, hiring un-trained workers that just put a bolt in a machine repeatedly. It proved far more effiecient and cheap then hiring trained workers to make and install a whole engine by themselves.

Others then used this assembly line because, "They get more bang for their buck". So by your reasoning, Ford now becomes Almighty, and assembly lines become cars…?

[Note]I lost myself on that one…:) At least I know I got a good point in there. Hehe [/Note]

-Dunceiam

From: Boreas
The 'evolved' from the first car. They all have the same basic components (hybrids etc excluded). The have different features for different environments and markets.

If god is the designer, then he designed sea cucumbers and fungi too, which are completely different from mammals. Don't even try to argue on this, you can go ahead and believe what you want, but don't try explaining your beliefs, because you will just fall flat.

sorry, i thought i was an evolutionist that brought up this same design thing? (did i hear someone's argument just fall flat?)

Huh? If you're saying you're an evolutionist, then you were arguing for a creationist belief, so moot point.

From: warbeak1245
because they have the same fucking designer… don't you think it is strange that all cars have the same basic structure? they must have fucking evolved from little pieces of scrap metal, right?

read the FIRST post in this thread fool… what does it say? and who is it by? there ya go…

lardmaster…

From: warbeak1245
i was an evolutionist that brought up this same design thing?

You're not making any sense lol. You are saying you are on one side, but arguing for the other. Whichever side you are arguing for is the only one that counts.

Everyone, THINK ..

If you were evolved out of bacteria, then how did those bacteria came in the universum?
If the almighty God made us, then who made HIM?

If you stay thinking about it, you know there is no begin..


And No.. Bacteria can't come out of nowhere -_-

Theory: Bacteria were brought to Earth by comets from other planets. Bacteria was brought to those other planets by other comets from other planets. Where it started? Dunno, human brains are unable to understand the concept of infinity.

But Rambozin, what do YOU think happened millions or trillions of years ago?

-Dunceiam

……..

I dont know what happened 3 trillion years ago, I answered on the poll "all i know is I'm alive now."