SRL Archive - Senior News and General

Lets face it: Now that unbalanced trading is removed from the game, our armies are useless. We cannot profit from them anymore in any way. We will need to switch to a different strategy and we will need to do it fast, otherwise the forums will die. Activity has dropped with an amazing 35% and it will continue in this rate if we dont put a stop to it or change drastically.

I propose focussing on individuals rather then on armies now. So, instead of switching Players every 30 minutes, a script must be able to support 10 hours of flawless action on one (!!!) Player. As we all know, this is virtually impossible using the current native SCAR techniques. Only a handful scripts can pass the test of longevity. Although we have mastered and deepened SCAR in every possible way, thanks to the efforts of all, there are still many many traps hidden inside the game.

The point I am making is: We need to resort to drastic measures if we want to survive as a leading upperclass cheating community. It is time to let go of oldschool religion. Armies are out. They are too ineffective for such a time consuming game.

Moreover, I think it is time to turn to S.M.A.R.T.

Yes I know there are a lot of cons to this, foremost being it can and will break anytime, and its considered cheating within cheating, but I really see no better alternative. With oldschool SCAR I have hardly been able to keep one Player online for more than two hours straight. With S.M.A.R.T. I can keep a Player going for hours and hours because I am much more aware of my surroundings. Whether S.M.A.R.T. should be embraced as the solution to everything is not a matter of closed discussion of course. But simply put: I will stop producing and maintaining SCAR scripts and will turn to S.M.A.R.T. with tilewalking. I know this may sound horrible to some, but I foresee no future for SRL if we dont change to flawless management of one (!!!) Player. Or maybe two or maybe four, but no more really.

So we must focus on Skills. This is where GE comes in. Its easy to generate money using our Player. This money should in turn be used to buy the raw materials needed to level other skills. With a little planning your Player should have no trouble leveling with the money it earns. Its the beauty of our macro economy.

I have prooven that SCAR/SRL is capable of miraculous scores. Provided we keep playing the way we are and make no mistakes in our code, I see absolutely no reason for any ban. We must try to max out scores. See how far we can push it. Make real machomacros. Its all that we have left.

I have given it a lot of thought, and I honestly believe this is the only practical solution for cheating at this point. I do believe however that S.M.A.R.T. will need to stay behind the gates of SRL-Members, so that Sauron wont focus his Eye on us. We are after all much more visible now that all the lvl-3's are gone. We will need to proceed with caution.

This creates another problem: Is S.M.A.R.T. is to stay behind bars, then our forums will die nonetheless. SCAR scripts are limited effective. The big work must be done with S.M.A.R.T.

I dont want to attach a poll at this moment. What I need first are some good arguments for or against this strategymove.

I'm with you, Fawk. Even without tile walking you can create some flawless scripts, like Lumbridge swamp miners, fight cavers, seeds theivers etc that will run for 10 hours straight, if they have no randoms. But thats the thing - these scripts do get randoms, and often, especially your seed theiver from the proggies I have seen.

Thats where SMART comes in, using the settings array I believe we can solve nearly all randoms? As far as I can tell, SMART is the only way forward for our community, and we should forget the old traditions and progress.

I have nothing to argue. I am looking foward to this conversation.

I have too many points to argue.

Firstly, I believe pushing individual players to the max, WILL result in a ban. I found out the hard way, when I powered my magic to 99 using my own script (although to this day, I'm still not sure whether it was Hy's fightcaver that was the death of the player).

Tilewalking, seems like such a stab in the back to srl. In terms of botting, It's a huge advance, but to me it says:

a) Firstly, that solarwind was right. That's not what anybody wants to hear :p

b) It's breaking our own rules. It's using knowledge of the java code. We've stayed so clean up until now, I believe this will be metaphorically 'getting our hands dirty'.

c) Lastly, Tilewalking will and does break, often. We will be pinning all our hopes and dreams on benland (who I trust entirely to carry us to a new age of cheating) but, the day benland isn't there for us (through no fault of his own) we're screwed.

Finally, the decision to release smart to the public will, of course, bring vast amounts of people to the forums, and effectively keep them alive. But, smart being public will also result (most probably) in jagex getting a hold of it, and fixing it. History repeats itself (Autorune).

I'm truly in a mixed mind about the whole situation. I totally agree that something needs to be done if we are to remain one of the top cheating communities, but I'm not sure how far I'm willing to take it.

There are still little methods of transferring money between players.

For example in this (password to the zip is 'sp0rk') video tutorial Dave and I made, we show a method for members. Works out at 1.5m+ an hour (transfer rate).

I don't think little methods like this will save us. And if big methods are found, they will go public and end up being patched.

So, I think 60% of me agrees with you Fawaki. The other 40% violently dis-approves.

SMART V2 shouldn't go out to only some, put it out to all. If Freddy approves of it, come up with a way to embed it in SCAR, keeping things easy for newer people and migrating towards a more integrated, easy to manage, hard to break system.

Having SRL publicly available never hurt us, and if we keep a few good scripts available to everyone, people will stay away from more detectable scripts, and players won't notice us, thus Jagex won't mind us. Much.


Level < 20 traps built into SRL.

It will enforce our dedication to invisibility.


If we are to survive by reflection, should we not know how it works? Some changes to the java end of the forums would help with this transition to java. I'm not saying everyone needs to become a java guru, but just as there are tutorials for making delphi/c++ plugins for the more inquisitive of us, there should be a couple good java tutorials.

It will also give us something to work towards; for example, maybe I want to find a object that blends with its surroundings too much so to find it accurately with common methods. Thus, I'd hook and employ the fields needed to find this and any other object I want (which is currently possible with the new smart if you have the right fields?), and load them from a webpage on runtime; I would only need to run my updater once a week and people would be able to use my script. If we don't encourage some extension of knowledge in the community, we leave our future to chance, and put everything on the line.

Consolidate fields from Ben's updater onto one page that SetupSRL will fetch at runtime, but encourage scripters to build their own updaters to extend the functionality of their scripts. Now that we can do whatever we want flawlessly, the actual script is of less importance, and the updater behind it is what really matters.

a) Firstly, that solarwind was right. That's not what anybody wants to hear

Well the situation has changed a fair bit. We are now aimining to auto on 1 character instead of whole armies, and walking is a big impact on how long a script runs for. Before, it was important, but not AS integral to the running of a script as it is now, since we had 6, 10, or even 20 players to back us up if something went wrong. Now we have 0 backups..assuming you auto on the 1 char, of course. So its not saying that he was right…we are just changing with the times really.

b) It's breaking our own rules. It's using knowledge of the java code. We've stayed so clean up until now, I believe this will be metaphorically 'getting our hands dirty'.

Yeah, but this is what the post is about really. Should we forget the old rules and restrictions, and move on with the new, or stay with the old techniques which dont work as well for our goals anymore?

c) Lastly, Tilewalking will and does break, often. We will be pinning all our hopes and dreams on benland (who I trust entirely to carry us to a new age of cheating) but, the day benland isn't there for us (through no fault of his own) we're screwed.

Tilewalking doesnt break if its ben who makes it ;) He said his hooks are still working since last summer (whenever that is for him), when he wrote them for KYAB. These are the hooks he didnt give to solar, and the ones which are in SMART now. The one's that solar wrote for kyab break every update, but ben's are still working, at least 7 months after he wrote them. Notice how we didnt have to update the field constants after monday's update? And also, yakman said he is willing to maintain SMART.

Great vid btw. I will test it out with my mates, but dont you think Jagex will be monitoring unbalanced trades, to see if someone has found a way around like you guys did?

From: The Claw


Great vid btw. I will test it out with my mates, but dont you think Jagex will be monitoring unbalanced trades, to see if someone has found a way around like you guys did?

Please keep it private, seeing as it was meant for the private section of sp0rk-eh.com

Also, On the server side logs, it will be a perfectly balanced trade.


On topic, You've got some great points. In a way getting rid of the old rules, and implementing new rules may be the way to move forward. Would create a more dynamic srl. As times change, so must we I guess…

And, as I said, I have every confidence in ben, but sooner or later they will break. It's a fact :p

From: Sp0rky
And, as I said, I have every confidence in ben, but sooner or later they will break. It's a fact :p

If they break, ben can fix them.

And if ben is gone, and can't fix them, then we may have to result back to the old method. But right now, it's either we use the way of autoing that doesn't work too good anymore without multi player, or we use the way that works good without multi player, until it breaks and ben's not here, then we go back to the bad way.

So even if it breaks, we wouln't be in any worse position then we are now. And who knows, maybe jagex will make some updates by then in our favor? :)

I say good idea, we have no other choice.

I have no arguments, I see no other plausible way to go

I don't get it, the way I see it, autoing on your army is just fine. Me personally I don't see a need to trade in between autoers or anything. You have individual players that all are in 1 army for backups, independent in every aspect except for the length of the script run. They make all their own skills and do everything on their own, but they still have the other x number of players. That is the way I personally would like it to stay, and I will probably continue that way even if you do decide to go forward with this idea.

Edit: Also, are these your personal views, or are you saying this in that everybody seems to be leaning towards single player autoing?

Edit: Changing this would mean we aren't autoing to "beat the system", we are autoing to get the best stats and skills we can. At least thats the way I see it, or their wouldn't be a reason to switch.

I think that it certainly is possible to do single player training. For example…

http://www.srl-forums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=312277&postcount=983

/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\
| –> ChickenKiller <– 2.38 –> by Tarajunky <– |
<~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >
Worked for 11 Hours, 29 Minutes and 3 Seconds
Picked up feathers 2795 times.
Killed 7246 chickens at a rate of 631 per hour
<~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >

All on one player, with NO randoms. So, some scripts could be modified to do this. But most scripts will still run into unsolveable randoms. The beauty of multiplayer is that you can have an unsolvable random on one character and keep right on autoing.

Having an excellent autoresponder would be absolutely essential for single player autoing, so we would probably have to release the best one we have.

Personally, I think multiplayer is still viable. Sure, if you have a lvl 126 with 99 runecrafting to make money yourself, then having an army isn't going to help you in any way. But my main isn't anywhere near that good. The most I could hope to make with my main alone would be by mining, which would make maybe 60-80k per hour. With an army supplying my main with raw materials (all at "market prices") there are ways to make 200k+ per hour even with the 3k trade limit. I really think we just need to get a little bit smarter about how we use armies. The point of SRL autoing has always been remove the drudgery and repetitiveness out of the game. Most people did this to benefit their mains. Some did this to sell geepees for cash. If we can still remove most of the drudgery and repetitiveness from the game while our mains still benefit, what's the problem?

I'm guessing that most people that stopped visiting the site were only interested in selling gold, which is essentially dead. Releasing smartv2 isn't going to change that. Even if you can auto 24/7 on one character using Java, you still can't sell the gold for real cash. These people won't ever be back, regardless of what we do.

From: Bobarkinator
I don't get it, the way I see it, autoing on your army is just fine. Me personally I don't see a need to trade in between autoers or anything.

I agree, that's why I'll just stay with the multiplayer. I have 35 players and I want to train them all.

You have individual players that all are in 1 army for backups, independent in every aspect except for the length of the script run. They make all their own skills and do everything on their own, but they still have the other x number of players.

That would be nice, but that would be a massive script. Or we should make SRL very high-tech with functions as ChopTree(Tree: String). Or another thing we could try is to make scripts like includes; we make one base form and you'll be able to include scripts and then run one script on one player. Then when he turns false you continue with the other script + player.

Edit: Changing this would mean we aren't autoing to "beat the system", we are autoing to get the best stats and skills we can. At least thats the way I see it, or their wouldn't be a reason to switch.

That's what the people (aka leechers) want. We don't have much choise if we want to keep the forums alive.

Except for us, there was RSDemon and iBot. Now, neither of those are usable for main accounts. So, on the bright side, no matter what we do, we would still be the top cheating community :D.

But on a serious note, this of course turns many eyes to us. Jagex will have to be monitoring us closer in order to just slow us down. And I bet they will. After all, this update has been in their favor because they got rid of the RS-Rapers, however unintentional it may have been.

I believe that we could easily function through the old methods, but if we want to stay at our level, we will have to develop much harder on the field of Random Events and undetectability.

We have to hold this machine running. I trust BenLand with the assignment, but we have to watch out that we don't end trusting him SO much, that when something goes wrong he will just save us. We need to be able to run this ourselves, but with the power of Ben and Yakman to get us forward.

And my Catherby Fisher can run 14 hours, so I passed, lol :p

Our way forward is a bit clouded but I have faith. We have all the talent needed in SCAR, C++ and Java to endure whatever attacks are made on us.

And now, I really have to learn Java.

-Knives

I don't see a need for a strategy change if we just auto to beat the system, as we already did it.
If we'd auto for RL cash, the army idea is even more important then before, as you can sell the accounts, thus making huge profit.
But, if we'd auto just to give our mains cash (which only counts for RS players), just to get those mills, only to get those mills, then we'd need a strategy change. In that case we need to focus even more on member accounts, as many people are member at their mains, and we already got a good bunch of F2P scripts suitable for running on one character for a long time (Tarajunkys chickenkiller, to give an example).
I think the idea of releasing scripts as part of a global controller (read: includes) is a good idea too. It'd require none restructuring of SRL at all, only a few more tutorials about how to use it, but the base is having one controller script, using the highlevel functions in the includes. This would enable for more and better antiban, causing more money and different xp at our mains. The user should be able to choose the scripts he wants by just setting a few booleans (maybe in a nice form).

Tilewalking has nothing to do with perfect scripts, ok, it's a method, ok, it works, but it is not necessary at all imho. It is possible to create flawless walking without tilewalking, although it might be a great assisting method. The problem with tilewalking is: if it's released publicly, noone will use something else, and if there's an update, all scripts will break until someone fixes it, causing huge problems every time. That's why I think that the scripts that'll use something like a controller need both colour and tilewalking, as that's an almost unbeatable combination, that can hardly ever break if well done.

But SRL breaks too, and can do so as easily as all the new stuff in smart. either way, both need regular updating so i dont see how its a problem - especially when all the fields are stored in constants, which makes it incredibly easy to update. just by fixing it and releasing a new revision through svn

Whats the purpose of SRL at all? When we change to Java, reflection.. There's no need for SRL.. Its way better to just a script in Java..
Whats the purpose of scar when scripts are just like this:
"Walktotile(50,50);"
"ClickObject(50)"
"Repeat"
"WaitAndFindRandoms(5000)"
"ClickObject(24)"
"Until CountInvetory = 28"

Of course! SMART comes in handy when we get unsolvable randoms..
But as a matter of fact.. What randoms are truly unsolvable? Mordaut..
The others are solveable with color finding. I say we use better technique's..

The people who left the forums were after the money they earned with cheating..
The people who stayed, stayed because they enjoy scripting & cheating..

If we kill the scripting part, there will be few people left who actually stay..

Like someone stated before already, we are the only cheating scene thats alive.. SCAR has 'always' manged to get through this situation where Java were better bots.. Why would we chance now? Now when we have far better object finding.. Auto-responders.. Good walking..
The only reason is Randoms..

the tilewalking / settings array part of smart probably wont break as long as we can give it new field names for ever update.
we dont necessarily have to use any updater to find them, if one part of it breaks, we could just find it by hand by looking in a deobfuscated client.

but if other parts of smart breaks, it wont be so easy to fix. For one example, when you start runescape with smart, it goes through all the websites to get the normal runescape playing page,
first goes to "http://www.runescape.com"
then "http://www.runescape.com/detail.ws"
then "http://www.runescape.com/slj.ws?lores.x=452&lores.y=236&plugin=0"

and so on, until you get to the page that loads the applet.
if one of those URLs were to change, smart would probably give an error and not start up runescape.
we could safeguard against this by maybe making smart get the URLs from a file, so it could be easily changed.
those URLs havent changed for about 18 months, but it was just an example.

But you cannot predict exactly what will break, for this reason, I believe smart should be open source.

a few people before have said, "yakman is willing to maintain smart", well thats not strictly true, it was only for finding those fields,
I just as much as everyone else here about the inner workings of smart, even less actually, because I was away when smart was first started being released, so didnt get the open sourced verisons of scar (of which the rapidshare links have now expired)

for the one player idea, we could have patterns of logging out for 10 minuites or so, I know before SRL, the includes before would have something like that, to pretend to be an extreamly addicted runescape player.

As far as maintaining SMART goes, some of the hooks are a little outlandish (none are included now), but the ones you currently have rarely if ever break. If I can't do it because I'm, I know for a fact that Yakman can.

As far as longevity goes, I'm going to argue the opposite point from using SMART ;) I know most of you have only been around when we used multiple players, however that's not always been the case. When I used to auto heavily, we ran scripts one player at a time. Now, I know there were less randoms, but the scripts themselves were able to run for anywhere from 6-10+ hours usually. This sort of flawlessness was standard amongst both free and pay scripts. So, it is possible to do with scar, but you will have to work much harder. There is no argument against the fact that using multi players makes it easier to write a script than using single players, you only have to make the script last 10/n hours based on the number of players n.

FYI, there has been three updates [in a row] that Jagex has not re-obfuscated their client, before Christmas, start of Christmas, end of Christmas. Not saying there haven't been updates every once and a while that don't change, but maybe they think they've killed all java-based bots :rolleyes:

@Yakman, SMART gets those addresses off of the web page as well as the vars in most cases :)

Wherever the noble Fakawi thinks we should go, I will follow :)

And if we are in danger of loosing scripters, I can start scripting again :p

Spork that is a nice way :P hahah never even thought about it like that :P

Well I think the becomes a question of what you auto for. Some are obviously saying we should stay pre java, such as mastaraymond, because we like the challenge. I will freely admit that it was fun to script in a color based cause. You then ask yourself, what was so fun about "color coding"? I think that if you get down to it, you liked it because everyone would code in drastically (as far as coding pascal goes) different and you could prove you were the better man by how well you could code.

When you examine Java programming, as mastaraymond has pointed out, most code between people will be exactly the same and not as challenging to make. I think that we need to find a comprimise between making this challenging and using the extent of our knowledge to the utmost. How can we do this you may ask since these somewhat contradict themselves? The easiest way to do this is continue to produce content that people can work with, just let the developers work with the Java things but continue to let the actual scripts be color coded. For instance, randoms are obviously one of the hardest things to deal with in RS cheating. I'm sure that no one objects to using java to solve these?

The next hardest problem with one player is tilewalking. Of course, someone will have a problem with this, but let us bring things into perspective for a minute. People get so sidetracked with other things they fail to move towards their real goal. Programming for Runescape is supposed to be efficient and accurate. Your goal when walking to a spot is to get there. The means by which you do it, whether tile walking or advanced DDTMs, radialwalking or a simple colorfinding procedure should not matter. I would refer you to the phrase "the end justifies the means", from The Prince, which simply means that as long as you accomplish your goal, it doesn't matter how you got there(Machivelli wrote this and I do not agree with his reasoning on most occasions :)). Anyway, you should pick the most efficient procedure for the job. However, in things such as object finding and such, I see no harm in coding by color or whatever.

I personally think that you should simply keep all options open. Let the scripter decide if it is one player or multi? We have never limited scripters before? Certainly Hy71139's fight cave runner was not meant for an army? Its not like you are currently limited to only making army based scripts now, I think we should simply shift the focus over to main scripts a little more.

I also do believe that there should be more Java tutorials and more emphasis put on Java. We make java sound like it is this bad thing, but why? There is nothing wrong with Java at all except that other bots use it? I can see no wrong in using our Java knowledge, so long as we keep ourselves seperated from these bots. 20+ leveled characters, which I don't think will be a problem now that rs gp selling is gone. No one wants to risk getting all level 99 stats on a level 3. Now that people's object to auto is gone, the only ones left are here for

1. Fun
2. Skills

Both will listen to whatever you have to say (such as 20+ characters only) because they do not want to get banned and people will look up to someone they know has experience and knowledge. See already as a few people on this thread have already said that they will folow "The great and wise Fakawi" as I think I saw it, already? If SSRL are willing, so will anyone below them. We just need some people to be examples to "start that trend", and the rest will follow.

personally, i believe fawki is 100% right on this one.

this will for one, increase the quality of scripts made and released, because anything not up to par will, be more likely to cause a ban.

everyone complaining about java coding, fawki isn't saying we should create smart into a fully functioning bot, just reading certain information and using scar to act upon it. so the diversity of scripts will remain.

Whatever you do, I'm sure it won't be a problem, but no client modding! I will refuse to use it if it is a client mod

I still personally believe that although we need to advance as many people have said. That if we where to simple create a Java supplement for RS that would be able to supply us with the colors of certain things or make them constant (Basically SCARSCAPE) I would be fine with that advancement, if we add tilewalking and perfect anti-randoms too, but going to the extent of action monitoring + item locations on mainscreen, it really takes all the fun out of scripting.

I will still script no matter what, just because I love to, and no matter what language its in, just do what you think is right.

From: Bobarkinator
Whatever you do, I'm sure it won't be a problem, but no client modding! I will refuse to use it if it is a client mod

Please explain why you are so anti-client mods ?

Edit: I've actually changed my opinion somewhat. I believe smart should go public. It would propel us into the new age, and any problems we face, will be even more challenges to overcome. Sounds awesome.

Client mods can increase ban rate by astronomical numbers. The only way that Jagex was able to send the negative UID to all the Aryan users was because it was a client mod. And if you didn't know, I'm fine with reflection, which is what SMART has now, but not client modding, which is injecting your own methods and such into the runescape client. You have to make a new loader and everything so it will run.

Edit: My facts may not be 100% correct, but thats what I have picked up as I have went along. Ben could probably explain it better.

It's true that it can increase ban rate (by not behaving like a normal client, hence the aryan bannings) but client modding possibilities are vast and endless.

You can have so much fun, and it can make botting so much easier. I wasn't suggesting a bot with modded client be released, but maybe something can be achieved, just for fun, by messing about with a de-obed client? I'm just saying that it's not as bad as you're making out :p

While making this decision, please keep in mind the saying that the best leaders make quick and efficient decisions. It will ultamitely come down to your own merit, whether the thread persuades you one way or the other or if it has not effect, so act quick or you will make the same mistake Runescape did by letting all of its people leave without making an announcement soon enough. People like to see progression, so any way in that direction is in my opinion the right path to take.

From: pwnaz0r
While making this decision, please keep in mind the saying that the best leaders make quick and efficient decisions. It will ultamitely come down to your own merit, whether the thread persuades you one way or the other or if it has not effect, so act quick or you will make the same mistake Runescape did by letting all of its people leave without making an announcement soon enough. People like to see progression, so any way in that direction is in my opinion the right path to take.

I know, I try to spend as much of my free time as possible here, but I am rather busy as it is, hence I created this to poll the temperature :)

If Smart v2 will be released, KYAB release anyone?
I'm pretty sure noone wants anything like that to happen again. SRL took a clear statement (no client stuff), and it would be hypocrite to support such a thing now.

From: Markus
If Smart v2 will be released, KYAB release anyone?
I'm pretty sure noone wants anything like that to happen again. SRL took a clear statement (no client stuff), and it would be hypocrite to support such a thing now.

times change, adapt or die.

From: Renax
times change, adapt or die.

Hahaha, I truly didn't expect that. Made me laugh pretty hard. I was expecting words of wisdom.

Markus, I felt like you as well. I said solarwind would have 'won', but that's not the case at all.

Renax, IS right. Times do change. Being stuck in our old traditional ways will only lead to outdated and less reliable macroing, and us falling behind other communities and cheats (not that I'm worried about that).

Cheating, for me, has always been about pushing the boundaries of accomplishment.

From: pwnaz0r

Well I think the becomes a question of what you auto for. Some are obviously saying we should stay pre java, such as mastaraymond, because we like the challenge. I will freely admit that it was fun to script in a color based cause. You then ask yourself, what was so fun about "color coding"? I think that if you get down to it, you liked it because everyone would code in drastically (as far as coding pascal goes) different and you could prove you were the better man by how well you could code.

When you examine Java programming, as mastaraymond has pointed out, most code between people will be exactly the same and not as challenging to make. I think that we need to find a comprimise between making this challenging and using the extent of our knowledge to the utmost. How can we do this you may ask since these somewhat contradict themselves? The easiest way to do this is continue to produce content that people can work with, just let the developers work with the Java things but continue to let the actual scripts be color coded. For instance, randoms are obviously one of the hardest things to deal with in RS cheating. I'm sure that no one objects to using java to solve these?

The next hardest problem with one player is tilewalking. Of course, someone will have a problem with this, but let us bring things into perspective for a minute. People get so sidetracked with other things they fail to move towards their real goal. Programming for Runescape is supposed to be efficient and accurate. Your goal when walking to a spot is to get there. The means by which you do it, whether tile walking or advanced DDTMs, radialwalking or a simple colorfinding procedure should not matter. I would refer you to the phrase "the end justifies the means", from The Prince, which simply means that as long as you accomplish your goal, it doesn't matter how you got there(Machivelli wrote this and I do not agree with his reasoning on most occasions :)). Anyway, you should pick the most efficient procedure for the job. However, in things such as object finding and such, I see no harm in coding by color or whatever.

I personally think that you should simply keep all options open. Let the scripter decide if it is one player or multi? We have never limited scripters before? Certainly Hy71139's fight cave runner was not meant for an army? Its not like you are currently limited to only making army based scripts now, I think we should simply shift the focus over to main scripts a little more.

I also do believe that there should be more Java tutorials and more emphasis put on Java. We make java sound like it is this bad thing, but why? There is nothing wrong with Java at all except that other bots use it? I can see no wrong in using our Java knowledge, so long as we keep ourselves seperated from these bots. 20+ leveled characters, which I don't think will be a problem now that rs gp selling is gone. No one wants to risk getting all level 99 stats on a level 3. Now that people's object to auto is gone, the only ones left are here for

1. Fun
2. Skills

Both will listen to whatever you have to say (such as 20+ characters only) because they do not want to get banned and people will look up to someone they know has experience and knowledge. See already as a few people on this thread have already said that they will folow "The great and wise Fakawi" as I think I saw it, already? If SSRL are willing, so will anyone below them. We just need some people to be examples to "start that trend", and the rest will follow.

If we are going to change to Java, why even use scar? Wouldn't it be smarter to completely run it in Java?

Why must we change to Java now? How long has Scar done it without? There is no need to change, there is need to make it perfect.. Who says we need Java to make it perfect?

After hearing some things about Solarwind, I've never wanted to use KYAB. Ben and SRL left KYAB, and so have I. But if we start using Smart v2, Solar doesn't win. Ben does :D And when Ben wins, so do we. But this is one of the smaller matters of this big problem. We win vs Solar winds, who cares?

I agree a little on making SMART private, but I'm not sure. There are still quite a few leachers out there, and I'm afraid they aren't mature enough to have such a gift handed to them. Some will, inevitably, begin raping RS with it. And if we suddenly change from the undetectable, mingling human-look-a-likes, to an army of violent rapers, we will eventually be noticed. But in the end, Ben decides the fate of SMART.

I have more faith in this community than I have in anything, and I believe we can endure almost anything. So even if we look weak to Jagex and potential new cheaters/scripters (Fresh meat :D), we are strong on the inside, constantly fuelling ourselves with scripts and new developments.

What to be done? Time and Fakawi will tell :D

-Knives

From: King of Knives
After hearing some things about Solarwind, I've never wanted to use KYAB. Ben and SRL left KYAB, and so have I. But if we start using Smart v2, Solar doesn't win. Ben does

Solar wins, as we told him we are against java stuff. Now we're switching to reflection, he'll say that we are just a bunch of assholes, as we are switching because the almighty Ben created something. He'll call us a bunch of hypocrite liars, all because of this reason. Worse of all: he is right.

Not that I'm against this. But I'd rather keep it private to avoid all the consequences. But remember, no need to release this, No need to use it. Perfect mapwalking is possible with colours, and the only reason this will be released, is because some people say it isn't.

In responce to your statement mastaraymond, you have to again rethink your objective. That is to have fun and auto effectively. The reason we would not switch fully to Java is because it would be no fun and no challenge. Keep in mind, these would be solutions to problems we have previously not been able to deal with… Or I haven't lately seen ScapeRune(ballons), Maze, or many other randoms solved perfectly? The only possible path if you still want the challenge of scripting and the perfection of Java is only use Java in things that we cannot solve in SCAR and/or pascal.

Think about it, why not? We have not solved them yet so it is not like we are taking away anything from ourselves? If you do not use Java for anything we can do right at this moment, you are not taking anything away from what scripting for RS already is. Do you see my point? We will still have everything that we have right now, so if you think about it, we are not really taking anything away from ourselves…

That is my view on the subject and I see no problem with it. I think the few objects we do not have in the category of "perfection (or no where close :))" would be some randoms and maybe walking.



EDIT: Let me use an image to explain…


******************************************************************

This graph represents a scale on our success in Runescape programming. The right end would be 100% perfection, the left end is 0%. Lets say we are here right now. (BLUE would be what we can do in scar).



******************************************************************


Now, I propose we only use Java in the topics we have not already *solved*. (RED is what we could do with Java).

******************************************************************

See? We have not taken anything away from ourselves, only made the remaining things in Java.

Why don't we act like Solarwind never existed and answer the question based on what you think is best for the community? Personally, I think everyone will benefit from Smart. Walking using coordinates is almost not fair because of how easy it is, but if someone wants to use it they should be welcome to. I still like walking using colors and such.

I agree, you can't let pride and whatnot get in the way of progression, but I don't think it should be released to SRL Junior members and below.

From what has happened with SMART I don't think we should release it to SRL Members without having a mass de-memberization, but in the end it truly depends on what BenLand wants to do. Although I'm fairly certain he'll take the right course of action.

We all know and have admitted that, if released to SRL Members, SMART will be leaked. We have also established that it will help advance cheating and keep SRL alive. Why then hold back?

A full release of SMART is our best option. It will benefit our community, in traffic, reputation, and ad clicks. Why let other less respectable communities benefit from content that belongs here? You see what happened with the cracked iBot: whole communities sprung up around those who could support it and keep it cracked! Unless we're going to auth it, and auth it well, I see no excuses to allow other communities to benefit from what isn't theirs to benefit from.

We have also established that it will help advance cheating and keep SRL alive.

When did we establish this? I'm not sure I agree with the statement that SMART must be released to help keep SRL alive.

Why then hold back?

1. People will abuse it.
2. People will post it other places anyway and although we might get credit, they are not going to advertise SRL and whatnot because it would takeaway from their own site.

It will benefit our community, in traffic, reputation, and ad clicks.

I agree I guess.

Why let other less respectable communities benefit from content that belongs here? You see what happened with the cracked iBot: whole communities sprung up around those who could support it and keep it cracked! Unless we're going to auth it, and auth it well, I see no excuses to allow other communities to benefit from what isn't theirs to benefit from.

I don't think others benefitting from our (really Benlands) work is a problem here. If you want to clear that up, put BY BENLAND100, SRL-FORUMS.COM somewhere on SMART. At this time, others "benefitting" isn't a huge deal because not many people have their hands on it yet. I think that releasing SMART has its pro's and con's, but I think if it comes down to it, SRL would survive without releasing SMART. So do you want to increase our popularity while ultamitely causing tons of problems (leechers don't know how to work things, even a simple powerminer), or do you want to increase our popularity with whatever population is left in RS cheating.

From: pwnaz0r
When did we establish this?

From: WT-Fakawi
otherwise the forums will die. Activity has dropped with an amazing 35% and it will continue in this rate if we dont put a stop to it or change drastically.

Moreover, I think it is time to turn to S.M.A.R.T.

If S.M.A.R.T. is to stay behind bars, then our forums will die nonetheless.

1. People will abuse it.
2. People will post it other places anyway and although we might get credit, they are not going to advertise SRL and whatnot because it would takeaway from their own site.

Yes. They will do both, but, with scripts focusing on longer runtimes and more human behavior, it will make far less of a difference. With the number of huge multiscripts that will inevitably be made, we will come to a point where one would have to purposely prevent their army from leveling up. Level 3 SCAR-controlled characters will be no more. And yes, people will always try to claim software as their own, etc, etc, but look at SCAR. Everyone goes to Freddy's site to get it, and there are very few impersonators. Also, if we implemented a 31 day usage limit on SMART, with a link to a SRL page where you can download the latest version of SMART when the current one expires, people wouldn't download from the wrong source more than once before they are redirected to our site.

So do you want to increase our popularity while ultamitely causing tons of problems (leechers don't know how to work things, even a simple powerminer), or do you want to increase our popularity with whatever population is left in RS cheating.

Whenever something complicated comes out, such as SVN SRL DL, etc, tons of tutorials come out for those who need help. At first, yeah, we got a lot of questions about subversion and how and why and what, but now? How often is it that you see a newcomer begging for help with their subversion installation? I think this will be the situation with SMART. Pseudo-chaos at the beginning, but it would even out eventually.


Meh, will revise that tomorrow, running out of time right now.

Its not about winning or losing to solarwind, or anything like that…its about beating Jagex. Like renax said, times change. The situation now is completely different to when SRL took a stance against using java.

From: The Claw
Its not about winning or losing to solarwind, or anything like that…its about beating Jagex. Like renax said, times change. The situation now is completely different to when SRL took a stance against using java.

And the reason it's different is due to the trade cap. Back then people only used java bots on level 3s to rape rs for gp. That was really what we were taking a stance against.

Heres my two cents.

Release the original SMART to the masses. Keep v2 private, away from the SRL members (at least until its purged of its leaks). It will give us more traffic and popularity, and the better scripters can use v2 and benefit from that.

If money is an issue, and if worst comes to worst, I can chip in around 10$ or so a month…

From: pwnaz0r
In responce to your statement mastaraymond, you have to again rethink your objective. That is to have fun and auto effectively. The reason we would not switch fully to Java is because it would be no fun and no challenge. Keep in mind, these would be solutions to problems we have previously not been able to deal with… Or I haven't lately seen ScapeRune(ballons), Maze, or many other randoms solved perfectly? The only possible path if you still want the challenge of scripting and the perfection of Java is only use Java in things that we cannot solve in SCAR and/or pascal.

Think about it, why not? We have not solved them yet so it is not like we are taking away anything from ourselves? If you do not use Java for anything we can do right at this moment, you are not taking anything away from what scripting for RS already is. Do you see my point? We will still have everything that we have right now, so if you think about it, we are not really taking anything away from ourselves…

That is my view on the subject and I see no problem with it. I think the few objects we do not have in the category of "perfection (or no where close :))" would be some randoms and maybe walking.



EDIT: Let me use an image to explain…


******************************************************************

This graph represents a scale on our success in Runescape programming. The right end would be 100% perfection, the left end is 0%. Lets say we are here right now. (BLUE would be what we can do in scar).



******************************************************************


Now, I propose we only use Java in the topics we have not already *solved*. (RED is what we could do with Java).

******************************************************************

See? We have not taken anything away from ourselves, only made the remaining things in Java.

But then there come's a new guy to SRL.. Who makes a first script with around 200 lines.. Lets say its a Guildminer. It was so easy to make, and so easy because it will never break.

When you can do things in 1 line, why would you make a procedure of 20 lines?

Of course we can still make "OLD" methods, but its way easier to just use Java..

Every newb can make a fully working script after 1 tutorial.

Didn't Kaitnieks made scar have an scripting engine because he wanted us to think for ourself? Of course, we could use Java for the things we cannot do with colors.. I 100% agree with that, but whats going to hold people from using it for Object finding? Whats left when you do Walking & Object finding in one? All the other functions are in SRL so that's no problem. Even if someone made a script using the "old" method, people will not care much picking colors, getting false players, unsolvable randoms.. No people would use the "java" version of it, just because its more stable, faster, and no unsolvable randoms.

If we release it to the Junior, what the "hell" is the meaning of SRL members?

It would attract new guys.. SMART v2 is able to run more than 1 at a time. It has almost got all the benefits from a bot like iBot. SRL always was a nice place, because there weren't any Java bots around here. I guess that is what kept us 'Clean'.

Every newb can make a fully working script after 1 tutorial.

And thats a bad thing? And its not as though they are being forced to use SMART. It is completely optional and up to the scripter…

Again, once a tool like this is out there, anything not using it won't be used: people want perfection. If there was a SMART script that was 200 lines, 99% perfect, and took an hour or so to write, and a normal script that was 4000 lines, 90% perfect, and took weeks to write, most people would go with the SMART script, even though the other took so much time and effort to make.

From: The Claw
And thats a bad thing? And its not as though they are being forced to use SMART. It is completely optional and up to the scripter…

Why putting effort into making a 'normal' script? No-one will use it

From: mastaraymond
Why putting effort into making a 'normal' script? No-one will use it

Sure they will, if it is a good enough script to do what they want, flawlessly. But what does it matter if no one uses your script? I thought you guys said you scripted for fun and experience..I could be wrong but I'm getting the increasing opinion that alot of us here dont want SMART released solely because it would mean that anyone can make a good script, not just a few people.

From: The Claw
Sure they will, if it is a good enough script to do what they want, flawlessly. But what does it matter if no one uses your script? I thought you guys said you scripted for fun and experience..I could be wrong but I'm getting the increasing opinion that alot of us here dont want SMART released solely because it would mean that anyone can make a good script, not just a few people.

you hit the nail on the head, i'm not gonna lie when i first started really scripted i was jealous when other people could script at my level or better, its natural. whether or not some of you choose to admit t is up to you.

a good smart script will not be 200 lines, you cannot get any sort of object location/recognition with the current smart (give ben a break he only used 1 method :) ) and i believe we should keep it like that. and what happened to the time when compressing your code was a goal that everyone was striving for, technology doesn't get bigger (Take a look at cell phones) any script is 4000 lines, i'm willing to bet is inefficient (There are exceptions).

I truly believe they won't use the script that is 4000 lines because it still uses the color methods and they don't trust those as much. It's human nature to err on the side of better techniques.

From: The Claw
Sure they will, if it is a good enough script to do what they want, flawlessly. But what does it matter if no one uses your script? I thought you guys said you scripted for fun and experience..I could be wrong but I'm getting the increasing opinion that alot of us here dont want SMART released solely because it would mean that anyone can make a good script, not just a few people.

Of course we script for fun and experience. But if no-one CARES about your script, you don't really want to go on making scripts.
A color script cannot be as flawless as an SMART script (Most cases). What's the point of your knowledge of scar when they release SMART v2? People don't have to study hard to get a working script.

Of course! This is good (for some people). But I can bet loads of good scripters will leave… SRL will only attract leechers.. People who wanted fast, flawless scripts can always to do Java side, I don't see why we should release all this Reflection methods to the public.

From: Renax
you cannot get any sort of object location/recognition with the current smart

Why you think Ben has added 3d array support? For object location/recognition…

in the current version of smart please show me a useable object oriented function.

Show me all the fields I need, and I will :p

Actually, maybe I'll ask Ben about it later tonight; I'm pretty sure it is possible, but he said it takes quite a few fields to work, and it's somewhat complex, so…yeah. Don't put any weight on this post - it has very little factual backing.

i know its fully possible, but is it implemented yet ? and does it have to be?