SRL Archive - Discussions and Debates

Lets assume for a moment that you want to do something, but it will take you weeks to do. If someone could show you an easier way to do it, would you choose the harder path or the smarter path, with the knowledge that you could get better and faster results with the smarter path? Think about it, then answer the poll ;)

Depends if it's something that I like to do or not. With some things, the journey is worth more to me than the end result. With other things, the end result trumps anything of worth that may happen throughout the journey.

EDIT: BEWARE! ReloadEvery likes to screw up forum posts. Will continue expanding on this post when I feel like typing more :p

EDIT: I love the irony ;) <–Inside joke

The smarter way ofcourse :)

Is there some sort of space math involved behind this? :p

Simply put:

You are Daniel-san, the master guy makes you to wax his cars, you would get experience from that, but, you could kick the master to bwlz from behind and run home.

End result is same, wether you were running with a kung fu guy throwing knives at you or walking to home :p

If the harder way is funner (I know, that's not a word lol) and the smarter way is more boring for the people that don't auto…

From: JAD
If the harder way is funner (I know, that's not a word lol) and the smarter way is more boring for the people that don't auto…

So, you like the hammer vs. the nail gun? You know the motto of scar right?
"Why do with a shovel what you can do with a bulldozer."
http://www.kaitnieks.com/scar/faq2/
Edit: Did anyone else know why Scar's icon is a bulldozer? :p

smarter way, that way i'll get something out of it.

Blah? Nobody said anything about autoing? :p

funner (I know, that's not a word lol)

Yes because you were too lazy to make it "funnier" :p

"for fortune is a woman and in order to be mastered she must be jogged and beaten"
- Niccolò Machiavelli

That doesn't fit this discussion at all, but Machiavelli's philosophy was that the ends justify the means. Whichever way gives you the most in return is the right way no matter what you do to get there. If I had a project due tomarrow that would normally take me weeks to do and there was a way I could finish in 10 minutes, that may be the right choice. It depends which I care more about and what I want in the end. Do I want the grade on the project or the knowledge gained from doing the project? Personally, if it was an English project then I would do the project in 10 minutes because I would have no use for the knowledge gained in doing the project, if any. If it was a class I was more interested in then I may do the project normally because I see a greater reward in the knowledge that I gain than the grade that I get.

From: BenLand100
So, you like the hammer vs. the nail gun? You know the motto of scar right?
"Why do with a shovel what you can do with a bulldozer."
http://www.kaitnieks.com/scar/faq2/
Edit: Did anyone else know why Scar's icon is a bulldozer? :p

Hmm…

Well, why was everybody (well, several people including admins/devs/mods…etc.) here against KYAB? Sure, it was ruining more and more of the purpose of using SCAR/SRL commands by every update, but it's easier then, right?

Switching over to using RSDemon would have been easier too because we wouldn't have needed to code anything! Instead of using the bull dozer ourselves then we would be paying somebody else to use the bull dozer for us. Much easier ;)

I've been out of scripting for the last few months, so whatever happens is fine with me. But I wouldn't have agreed with it back when I did script.

Not trying to come off in an attacking manner if I am.

We could have been spending all of our time hacking people with this community to get money too because it may have been easier, but we are a SCAR/SRL community, not a find the easiest way to make money on runescape/easiest way to auto on runescape.

I may be way off here..

[followingstatementshallonlyreceiveoneresponceandisnotsupposedtocarrythethreadawayfromthetopic]
^^ longest tag evah.

Well, why was everybody (well, several people including admins/devs/mods…etc.) here against KYAB? Sure, it was ruining more and more of the purpose of using SCAR/SRL commands by every update, but it's easier then, right?

"By every update" in start it had maybe one update or so, and then it had Types and UIDs, Tiles, Animation, Motion. Now, it has only Animation, Motion and Tiles.

So, just safer to walk and easier to detect when done working.

Anyhow, back on subject.

[/toolongtoretypeandtoolazytocopy]

From: n3ss3s
[followingstatementshallonlyreceiveoneresponceandisnotsupposedtocarrythethreadawayfromthetopic]
^^ longest tag evah.



"By every update" in start it had maybe one update or so, and then it had Types and UIDs, Tiles, Animation, Motion. Now, it has only Animation, Motion and Tiles.

So, just safer to walk and easier to detect when done working.

Anyhow, back on subject.

[/toolongtoretypeandtoolazytocopy]

I really never used KYAB, so I didn't know what I was talking about when I said by every update because I didn't know if it had ever been updated :p

But I know that KYAB was going to make object finding on screen and not just be mainly map walking or whatever and that just pushed the admins over the edge because there would have been much much less coding in SRL/SCAR then…

Anyways, back on topic, even though this is topic-related anyway :p

From: JAD
But I know that KYAB was going to make object finding on screen and not just be mainly map walking or whatever and that just pushed the admins over the edge because there would have been much much less coding in SRL/SCAR then…

No, the problem was Solarwind, not the capabilities of the program. Remember, I was the person who wrote most of those capabilities.

:p

Though Solarwind isn't "Village Clown" anymore…

But I know that KYAB was going to make object finding on screen

= Types & UIDs.

But, if they were kept there for more than the time they where, my object finding would propably look like "FindObj(blabla);" :p

Ben You need to be more specific, because personally i dont think the Easier way is the "Smarter" way… in literal sense.. (thats just a theory) because techinically people have different perspectives on that… But Really i see where your going at this.. i do believe it depends on what your dealing with because if you were to become a better Math scientist abviously you dont want to start from the begining, but rather pass knowledge on.. Luckly you can read a book and become smarter because somebody else already learned that, and you dont have too. But some things in life arnt plausible to learn in less you get a feel for it your self… try and go build somthing with the knowledge.
Sure you may be able to do it? how about the second time? im sure youll improve… Wisdom is what to do with that "knowledge" and that just about the only way you can gain it. But Really to the point it depends on the person because if your referring to your client SMART… then i wouldnt recommend it to the people who actually want to learn SCAR.. and become better… but i would recommend it for the people who just want to be lazy. XD


but it reminds me of the world today, how people actually take advantage of these things and actually feed on them…. Eventually the population become stupid (serisouly). And there is no point in learning because you feel you have everything in "need". This is when Only a few people actually "Think" for the rest of the world… because everyone else become to lazy to think for them selfs..


True Story ;)


heres somthing that might be useful to read XD

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/06/self-discipline-hard-work/

@SKy: Umm… SMART doesn't make scripting easier? Except for I learned to use compiler directives a lil :)

I would do the smarter, although it may take me a little bit, I would probably start doing the hard way :p

From: SKy Scripter
Ben You need to be more specific, because personally i dont think the Easier way is the "Smarter" way… in literal sense.. (thats just a theory) because techinically people have different perspectives on that… But Really i see where your going at this.. i do believe it depends on what your dealing with because if you were to become a better Math scientist abviously you dont want to start from the begining, but rather pass knowledge on.. Luckly you can read a book and become smarter because somebody else already learned that, and you dont have too. But some things in life arnt plausible to learn in less you get a feel for it your self… try and go build somthing with the knowledge.
Sure you may be able to do it? how about the second time? im sure youll improve… Wisdom is what to do with that "knowledge" and that just about the only way you can gain it. But Really to the point it depends on the person because if your referring to your client SMART… then i wouldnt recommend it to the people who actually want to learn SCAR.. and become better… but i would recommend it for the people who just want to be lazy. XD


but it reminds me of the world today, how people actually take advantage of these things and actually feed on them…. Eventually the population become stupid (serisouly). And there is no point in learning because you feel you have everything in "need". This is when Only a few people actually "Think" for the rest of the world… because everyone else become to lazy to think for them selfs..
True Story ;)
heres somthing that might be useful to read XD
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/06/self-discipline-hard-work/

The problem with your view is that you assume that the easier way is not as good as the hard way. I'll use the SCAR reference again, do you think you gain more from using the shovel vs using the bulldozer? Its not a concept that you can apply differently based on your bias, you either believe in utilizing all tools to your advantage or you don't, whatever your reason might be. It seems to me that most people refuse to utilize the avaliable tools on some principle that is usually not their own. If you really want to force me into a discussion about Scar, then consider this, why was Scar created? It was not created to teach people programming, it was created to macro on RuneScape. The problem is that the Scar community has reached an equilibrium between advancement and stagnation. You don't want to go forward because you feel that you can do everything that you ever need to do at the moment. But, that is hypocritical! You could have found a way without DDTMS, but you wanted them anyway. You could have found a way without TPointArray based functions, but you wanted them anyway.

Since Jagex has decided to implode and remove unbalanced trades, you're going to be forced to auto on the account that you want the profit on. I highly doubt that many (if any at all) of you auto for anything besides profit (on mules) or experience (on mains). If you're going to be forced to do more autoing on the account with the profit in mind, you'll need better and more undetectable scripts right? Why, then, would you ignore an easier and faster way to obtain data about your surroundings? Are these are your reasons?

• Too easy for beginners to make quality scripts.
• Takes the fun out of scripting.

Think about that for a few seconds, those two go hand in hand. You think it takes the fun out of scripting because there are more people able to do it and you feel less special. Thats a tiny bit selfish don't you think? You would rather be in a selective group of high achievers then allow others to rise to the occasion. If you can do it from within Scar, is there a problem with using it in a SRL/Scar community? Furthermore, redefine your concept of boring. If you consider using a utility developed by someone else boring, then you should not be using SRL, and especially not methods like RadialWalk. Furthermore, if you consider not doing everything yourself as having the end result of making you stupid, you should not be using SRL. This goes back to my equilibrium argument, however since you are writing your own include, Sky, I will give you the benefit of the doubt for following what you believe.

Not that it would ever get this easy (probably at least…) would this be fun as the next script?

program Whatever;

begin
  repeat
    MineIronAtVarrock;
  until(False);
end.

I mean, what's the fun for us scripters that don't auto then? There's not as much for us to do… That's the problem. Not because we want to feel more special, but we want a challange; something to do; a reward more then having a perfect auto the easy way, which would be having a perfect auto the hard way.

Not completely disagreeing with any of this, because SCAR's goal is to make perfect autos, but it takes the fun out of about 75% or whatever the number is of scripters here that don't auto. What are we supposed to do? All that would do is make more fun for the leachers..

If I didn't know what would be faster when done, I'd probably do both the smarter (you said that's the easier one?) and the harder, and compare the results. If I DID know that the "smarter" one would be faster, I'd most likely choose that.

From: JAD
Not that it would ever get this easy (probably at least…) would this be fun as the next script?

I mean, what's the fun for us scripters that don't auto then? There's not as much for us to do… That's the problem. Not because we want to feel more special, but we want a challange; something to do; a reward more then having a perfect auto the easy way, which would be having a perfect auto the hard way.

Not completely disagreeing with any of this, because SCAR's goal is to make perfect autos, but it takes the fun out of about 75% or whatever the number is of scripters here that don't auto. What are we supposed to do? All that would do is make more fun for the leachers..

Remember, the challenges you face now might be removed, but consider the opportunities you would have to do things never before possible. Consider for a moment if you could script a quest. Even if you had such things as flawless walking and the like, wouldn't you consider that fun and challenging? Then again, you could do like I do and move onto a higher level of programming to aid the community ;) You're not accusing me of not having fun are you :p

I'd try it myself first. When I'm finished ask him for his way, and probably use his , but only after I would have made it myself.

Are we given a smart way and a hard way? because in your examples you said "why use a shovel when you can use a bulldozer". Thats assuming that we had two choices. I'd probably try to think of a different way that was easier than the hard way and smarter than the smart way. Or some other combination of smart and easy. If i had my own idea of how to do something, and someone told me a better idea I'd think I'd chose my own idea because i don't like using other people's ideas because most of the time i think my ideas are better. It really depends on the situation. If i get more out of it (knowledge, final-whatever it is- is better, etc) doing it one way then thats probably the way i would go

Now that I'm being given a shovel and a bulldozer, I'll work this those examples.

I am getting paid to dig and are given a maximum of six weeks. I get paid increasingly more the earlier I finish. I have the choice of working with a shovel or a bulldozer. Personally, I took this job to work on my muscles and get a tan and getting paid is not my top priority, even if it is a nice bonus. I choose to take the shovel and I work 6 weeks out in the hot sun and get paid a decent amount, but I got more of what I wanted in thet end.

Catch my drift?

smarter = efficiency
efficiency = productivity
productivity = time
time = money
:D

I would rather leach a tonne of 100% working shit and have no work to do. And earn billions of RSGP then have to actually work for it myself.

Dont lie. So would you. If i had a script that could make millions. But it would take months to code it all out. And i told you WHAT the script did. AND gave you the script. You would use the script…

Whether that means its the easy way.

Its like the challenge of aryan and scar. ANd pretty much every java bot since. People are advancement nazis. Liek youzorz cant making ScRipt1ng that EaSy… WHo cares. It works it works.

From: Town
Now that I'm being given a shovel and a bulldozer, I'll work this those examples.

I am getting paid to dig and are given a maximum of six weeks. I get paid increasingly more the earlier I finish. I have the choice of working with a shovel or a bulldozer. Personally, I took this job to work on my muscles and get a tan and getting paid is not my top priority, even if it is a nice bonus. I choose to take the shovel and I work 6 weeks out in the hot sun and get paid a decent amount, but I got more of what I wanted in thet end.

Catch my drift?

But you're off the topic. Think of it like there is 2 shovels, rune and bronze. If the bronze shovel:
- took weeks to master
- very boring to master
- often broke, meaning you would go whole nights without getting any shovelling done at all
- meaning that you would get less excercise and get paid a lot less
- even when mastered it is very inefficient compared to the rune

while the rune shovel:
- would be mastered in 5 minutes
- would never break
- would be as efficient as possible for the job at hand

which one would you use? spend weeks mastering something extremely boring, which isnt efficient even when mastered, or spend 5 mins on something completely efficient and spend the rest of your time shovelling earning money?

personally, i would use whatever would get me the best results. if the smarter way got me the best results, in the least amount of time, i would use it. if the harder way got me better results, then i would use the harder way.

From: BenLand100
Remember, the challenges you face now might be removed, but consider the opportunities you would have to do things never before possible. Consider for a moment if you could script a quest. Even if you had such things as flawless walking and the like, wouldn't you consider that fun and challenging? Then again, you could do like I do and move onto a higher level of programming to aid the community ;) You're not accusing me of not having fun are you :p

You've convinced me a little more I guess, but I'm still kinda against it. IDK.

Well, i didn't understood what Ben wanted to say…actually I got, but seemed to be very un-logical…so I'll say it my way: I do stuff what gives me new skills…

1 guy asked me, why do you script, it won't give you nothing…
-I get new skills :D

From: Negaal
Well, i didn't understood what Ben wanted to say…actually I got, but seemed to be very un-logical…so I'll say it my way: I do stuff what gives me new skills…

1 guy asked me, why do you script, it won't give you nothing…
-I get new skills :D

Everybody's here because they want new skills or want to better their existing skills, probably because everybody is here because of the skill building game runescape :D

Ben, since you deviate from the central point of the matter in this topic, unless you give the specifics of the debate, you can infer no definite answers no matter how pronounced the opinions given are.

Basically, stop tricking people into voting for you; either tell them what they're voting on, or don't tell them at all.

From: Smartzkid
Ben, since you deviate from the central point of the matter in this topic, unless you give the specifics of the debate, you can infer no definite answers no matter how pronounced the opinions given are.

Basically, stop tricking people into voting for you; either tell them what they're voting on, or don't tell them at all.

So, assuming you understood what you just said, you mean to say that if a person holds a belief that they should modify that belief based on the expediency of the preferred decision? In other words, you think that if a person believes in advancement that they should choose stagnation if everyone else is? How can someone be pro advancement and choose the non-advancing path? That would be like being pro-life (anit-abortion) and being pro-murder :p Also, please explain how i deviated from the point of this topic. I believe since I made this topic, wherever the topic goes is where I meant it to go unless I say otherwise :)

From: BenLand100
So, assuming you understood what you just said, you mean to say that if a person holds a belief that they should modify that belief based on the expediency of the preferred decision? In other words, you think that if a person believes in advancement that they should choose stagnation if everyone else is? How can someone be pro advancement and choose the non-advancing path? That would be like being pro-life (anit-abortion) and being pro-murder :p Also, please explain how i deviated from the point of this topic. I believe since I made this topic, wherever the topic goes is where I meant it to go unless I say otherwise :)

Smartz, you may want to get a dictionary out… :p

From: The Claw
But you're off the topic. Think of it like there is 2 shovels, rune and bronze. If the bronze shovel:
- took weeks to master
- very boring to master
- often broke, meaning you would go whole nights without getting any shovelling done at all
- meaning that you would get less excercise and get paid a lot less
- even when mastered it is very inefficient compared to the rune

while the rune shovel:
- would be mastered in 5 minutes
- would never break
- would be as efficient as possible for the job at hand

which one would you use? spend weeks mastering something extremely boring, which isnt efficient even when mastered, or spend 5 mins on something completely efficient and spend the rest of your time shovelling earning money?

personally, i would use whatever would get me the best results. if the smarter way got me the best results, in the least amount of time, i would use it. if the harder way got me better results, then i would use the harder way.

How boring something can be is an opinion. If I knew that I could still work the 6 weeks with the rune shovel but get paid 3x as much because of how much more effecient it is I would have no problem using it. As long as I get what I originally wanted which was the tan and the work out whatever bonus I get I have no problem with.

– And I agree with Smartzkid's first post and then less after that.

From: BenLand100
So, assuming you understood what you just said, you mean to say that if a person holds a belief that they should modify that belief based on the expediency of the preferred decision? In other words, you think that if a person believes in advancement that they should choose stagnation if everyone else is? How can someone be pro advancement and choose the non-advancing path? That would be like being pro-life (anit-abortion) and being pro-murder :p Also, please explain how i deviated from the point of this topic. I believe since I made this topic, wherever the topic goes is where I meant it to go unless I say otherwise :)

All I'm saying is that people shouldn't be voting on something they know nothing about. It's like giving out a ballot with some names of people they've never heard of before on it, then telling people to chose whoever they think is the better person, then making that person a president. Complete insanity.

Either tell them what they're voting on or don't let them vote; an uninformed society is one destined to destruction.

if a person believes in advancement that they should choose stagnation if everyone else is? How can someone be pro advancement and choose the non-advancing path? That would be like being pro-life (anit-abortion) and being pro-murder :p

Advancement can have its costs. In many cases, the costs outweigh the benefits. You can send people to Pluto, but they won't live.

I'd expect a better example than the relationship between pro-life and pro-murder from you; really, how much worse an example can you give? Obviously you're not trying to convince me, but the uninformed others who may read these posts.

EDIT: And we're not that retarded, we're not a java based cheating community, what do you expect?

From: Smartzkid
All I'm saying is that people shouldn't be voting on something they know nothing about. It's like giving out a ballot with some names of people they've never heard of before on it, then telling people to chose whoever they think is the better person, then making that person a president. Complete insanity.

Either tell them what they're voting on or don't let them vote; an uninformed society is one destined to destruction.

Advancement can have its costs. In many cases, the costs outweigh the benefits. You can send people to Pluto, but they won't live.

I'd expect a better example than the relationship between pro-life and pro-murder from you; really, how much worse an example can you give? Obviously you're not trying to convince me, but the uninformed others who may read these posts.

EDIT: And we're not that retarded, we're not a java based cheating community, what do you expect?

What exactly am I not telling them, I asked a question: "Do you dislike easy things?" Posed another question: Would you choose to work harder or smarter? And gave people a way to respond (added a poll). You seem to be a conspiracy theorist bent on twisting people's minds… So once again, here is the question: If someone gave you two options to accomplish your goals, would you choose the smarter way or the harder way? You can assume that the smarter way is easier, thats essentially what it means. I'm not asking what your goals are, or anything of the sort. :rolleyes:

Edit: I use a abortion/murder comparison and you call it a bad example and you talk about astronauts and Pluto. Haha, funny. ;)

Ben, don't pretend you're not going to use this poll to fuel another of your debates. You've even admitted it.

And I call it irony :)

EDIT: Actually, if you think about it, it's not too bad an example. Sending astronauts to faraway planets = 'advancement'. Yet if not executed correctly, it can hurt more than it helps.

its not like we're voting on anything. we are doing a survey, if you will, of the mindset of the community. i dont see the problem

From: The Claw
its not like we're voting on anything. we are doing a survey, if you will, of the mindset of the community. i dont see the problem

Neither do I…

From: Smartzkid
Ben, don't pretend you're not going to use this poll to fuel another of your debates. You've even admitted it.
And I call it irony :)
EDIT: Actually, if you think about it, it's not too bad an example. Sending astronauts to faraway planets = 'advancement'. Yet if not executed correctly, it can hurt more than it helps.

I don't recall admitting anything. Beyond saying that the people who voted for the smarted way appreciate advancement and would be more likely to react well to change… Plus, it would be advancement if they didn't die, if they died, would you still call it advancement? We could send astronauts to Pluto now, they just wouldn't live to actually set foot on Pluto. It would be advancement if we found a way to get them there alive ;) Sending astronauts to a far away planet is an accomplishment, being able to do it without killing them, thats advancement.

Claw…you really don't see where he's going to take this next?

And Ben, you told me over MSN, you said how ironic it was that it was right infront of everyone's faces, etc, etc. I could post it, but I don't think that'd be wise.

From: Smartzkid
EDIT: And we're not that retarded, we're not a java based cheating community, what do you expect?

Exactly!

It doesn't matter if we'd be advancing… We wouldn't be advancing as SCAR/Pascal. We could advance further in the cheating community by hacking Jagex and all the accounts there too… But that's not what we do; That's not "how we roll".

From: Smartzkid
Claw…you really don't see where he's going to take this next?

And Ben, you told me over MSN, you said how ironic it was that it was right infront of everyone's faces, etc, etc. I could post it, but I don't think that'd be wise.

of course i do, lol. and i think that its a good idea

From: Smartzkid
Claw…you really don't see where he's going to take this next?

And Ben, you told me over MSN, you said how ironic it was that it was right infront of everyone's faces, etc, etc. I could post it, but I don't think that'd be wise.

As to what I said over MSN, its exactly what I just said, I inferred that the people who voted to choose the smarter path would not be opposed to, and would in fact be likely to be for, advancement. Its true that it is not a definitive answer, but by asking a general question I can force people to think for themselves rather than just do whatever the majority does. By doing that, people might just make their own specific decisions based on what they think, not what someone else thinks.
One Single Quote:

12/22/2007 7:59:02 PM Ben Land (to Murtagh) they are pro advancement ;)

From: JAD
Exactly!
It doesn't matter if we'd be advancing… We wouldn't be advancing as SCAR/Pascal. We could advance further in the cheating community by hacking Jagex and all the accounts there too… But that's not what we do; That's not "how we roll".

Who ever said that we wouldn't be using SCAR to advance? I could write sound detection, it would be in a C++ plugin, but you would use it from SCAR. Take SMART for instance, it is written in C++/Java and its perfectly acceptable for SRL to use. Its not like you have an external program running that you are just controlling with Scar, you are doing everything from within Scar, just being enabled by extensions to Scar itself.

From: The Claw
of course i do, lol. and i think that its a good idea

I also agree that it should happen, but I don't think we, as a community, are ready for it yet.

First we're gonna need some changes. Big changes.

Maybe we can start with the rules?

EDIT: Lol, and maybe we can find a better place to debate it?

From: Smartzkid
I also agree that it should happen, but I don't think we, as a community, are ready for it yet.

First we're gonna need some changes. Big changes.

Maybe we can start with the rules?

EDIT: Lol, and maybe we can find a better place to debate it?

I don't see why you can't just stick to the topic… :duh:

If I had my own bulldozer and a giant sand pit, it would be fun to drive it around like a giant tonka truck. If jamie from mythbusters came in and rigged it up to be remote control, I would remotely control it around lying on a deck chair for a while. But I would get bored quickly and it would be more fun to be in the drivers seat. However, the community/"state of the union" is changing, so my view may change with it, as long as we don't forget how to drive.

i see no competition.
its obvious smarter is correct.
its faster, and more efficient.
Why take time to learn an alternative method if its slower and less efficient…?
i voted for wrong one on accident though…

From: BenLand100
So, you like the hammer vs. the nail gun? You know the motto of scar right?
"Why do with a shovel what you can do with a bulldozer."
http://www.kaitnieks.com/scar/faq2/
Edit: Did anyone else know why Scar's icon is a bulldozer? :p

lol nice quote.

the smart and easy way off course. it'll take less time. and i have the same result.

1.1. Q. Where can I download current &#8216;clean&#8217; versions of Scar?

A. www.poonscape.com has a clean and current version.

Well i slgihtly agree with smartz. I can see where this is going to go. But yet i would still like to see the outcome of this poll. Considering …well.. i dunno. Thinking about kyab i guess. The backlash from that. I used it. i have no problem with it. What people vote isnt neccesarily what they will say in the end. You have to understand that most of the people that make up this community are kids. Not to say unintellegent as ofcourse. We have some very smart people here. But They are easily swayed a certain way.

From: Pyro
Well i slgihtly agree with smartz. I can see where this is going to go. But yet i would still like to see the outcome of this poll. Considering …well.. i dunno. Thinking about kyab i guess. The backlash from that. I used it. i have no problem with it. What people vote isnt neccesarily what they will say in the end. You have to understand that most of the people that make up this community are kids. Not to say unintellegent as ofcourse. We have some very smart people here. But They are easily swayed a certain way.

Thats exactly the problem, people are more likely to answer a general question more truthfully than a specific question. Your views don't change from one to the other, just your opinions which are influenced by other people's views ;)

wow… Ben when you created this thread, it had FLAME written all over it for a few of us. Didn't we already have this discussion. Anyways, I guess its good to post here. I would like to note the poll is at 5 - 20, but I am going to have to be a hypocrite and say I would take the hard road. I like the challenge alot, and I push really hard to be the best in everything I do. What doesn't kill me only makes me stronger.

From: BenLand100
Thats exactly the problem, people are more likely to answer a general question more truthfully than a specific question. Your views don't change from one to the other, just your opinions which are influenced by other people's views ;)

Hahah so true. Nice one anyway. Afterwards. Change the poll too. Would you use "Kyab" If fawki said not to :P sorry fawki. But you are a high up person. And you do sway people so damn easily. Not even by your doing.

I would always rely on my own brains,

rather then condemning myself to be forever crippled and relying upon someone else.

I do not use anything "smart" unless I don't care about quality, details, or choice.

useing something "smart" is similar to leting it do the hard parts, thus taking away your flexibility, and removing your ability to do it on your own.

harder = smarter you
smarter = smarter them

From: Boreas
If I had my own bulldozer and a giant sand pit, it would be fun to drive it around like a giant tonka truck. If jamie from mythbusters came in and rigged it up to be remote control, I would remotely control it around lying on a deck chair for a while. But I would get bored quickly and it would be more fun to be in the drivers seat. However, the community/"state of the union" is changing, so my view may change with it, as long as we don't forget how to drive.

Boreas just said what I've been trying to say the whole time for the most part :p

I mean, I guess it'd be okay. But we do need to remember how to drive because we can't have the entire cheating community relying on you Ben and you Java skills :p

Just like for runescape. We let the remote control do it a lot of the time, but we don't forget how to drive and actually play the game ourselves.

I say we do it if it doesn't take away too much from SCAR/SRL coding and as long as if Ben leaves or can't get on for a while anymore, we're not screwed :p We also would need some way of preventing as much leaking as we have in the members section if we aren't releasing it to the public… Unless it'd be SSRL+ or whatever.

I agree with Boreas and Greg.

If people knew what they were voting on, many would have voted differently. HyperSecret said he would have chosen the harder way, as the smart way has risks that far outweigh the benefits.

I personally think you should do the hard way at least once before doing the smarter way, that way you can advance after you have had something to advance. Now if you are directing this at SCAR advancement I would say start off trying everything the harder way and after a while move on to the smarter way so you're not just doing the same crap over and over again.

From: Smartzkid
I agree with Boreas and Greg.

If people knew what they were voting on, many would have voted differently. HyperSecret said he would have chosen the harder way, as the smart way has risks that far outweigh the benefits.

I've tried saying it nicely, shut up and go away, or stay on the topic at hand, not some other agenda that you feel like you must force on everyone else. :p

From: JAD
Boreas just said what I've been trying to say the whole time for the most part :p

I mean, I guess it'd be okay. But we do need to remember how to drive because we can't have the entire cheating community relying on you Ben and you Java skills :p

Just like for runescape. We let the remote control do it a lot of the time, but we don't forget how to drive and actually play the game ourselves.

I say we do it if it doesn't take away too much from SCAR/SRL coding and as long as if Ben leaves or can't get on for a while anymore, we're not screwed :p We also would need some way of preventing as much leaking as we have in the members section if we aren't releasing it to the public… Unless it'd be SSRL+ or whatever.

I don't plan on doing anything, however, what is done should be done in Scar, end of story. The only problem will be if you don't want to learn the smarter way for yourself.

From: LordGregGreg
I would always rely on my own brains,
rather then condemning myself to be forever crippled and relying upon someone else.
I do not use anything "smart" unless I don't care about quality, details, or choice.
useing something "smart" is similar to leting it do the hard parts, thus taking away your flexibility, and removing your ability to do it on your own.
harder = smarter you
smarter = smarter them

Remember when I said that someone could show you a smarter way to do something? I didn't say do a smarter way for you, but rather show you how to do it. You would not be using something smarter, you would be doing something smarter. The advancement that I propose is no different from using SRL vs. doing everything on your own.

From: c0de
The smarter way looks exactly as harder way to me :\

What you're missing is that once you learn the smarter way you'll be able to do more, faster and easier, than you would be able to do with the harder way. You just have to be willing to take the step to learn the smarter way instead of stagnating in the harder way ;)

Let people choose what they want to do, let them make their own decisions, no one is forcing you to use the smarter way, take the harder way if you want; that's what makes you unique as an individual right? Don't let the few decisions of a few people outweigh the mass majority to advance, don't let the decisions of other people sway yours unless you want it to be swayed. It's all your own decision, but don't let it stop other people from making their own.

Personally, who's stopping you from using both? ;)

I guess Ben gets pissed when I start to get a good argument together.


Once you open pandora's box, you can't shut it.

I hope you know what you're doing, Ben. God I hope you know what you're doing.

From: Smartzkid
I guess Ben gets pissed when I start to get a good argument together.


Once you open pandora's box, you can't shut it.

I hope you know what you're doing, Ben. God I hope you know what you're doing.

It's runescape. It's. A. Game.

What's the worst thing that can happen? Runescape gets screwed over for a day, oh noez what a tragedy…

From: IceFire908
It's runescape. It's. A. Game.

What's the worst thing that can happen? Runescape gets screwed over for a day, oh noez what a tragedy…

It's the game which is the reason for this whole community, keep in mind.

If runescape held your whole family together, wouldn't you care a little more about it? Not saying this is our technical family… But you get what I mean.

Depends, but I usually do things the easy way.

From: JAD
It's the game which is the reason for this whole community, keep in mind.

If runescape held your whole family together, wouldn't you care a little more about it? Not saying this is our technical family… But you get what I mean.

Maybe, but this isn't like we are dealing with nuclear weapons and screwing over people's life, for god's sake we're dealing with a child's crappy video game.

From: IceFire908
Maybe, but this isn't like we are dealing with nuclear weapons and screwing over people's life, for god's sake we're dealing with a child's crappy video game.

Well if you don't care about the game and this community that much (mostly this community)… Why are you here?

From: JAD
Well if you don't care about the game and this community that much… Why are you here?

Quoting things I didn't say? ;)

So what, if things don't turn out well then you reverse your ideas. Imagine if you never tried anything new, where would you be today? Usually it's almost understandable for the risks involved, but a potential risk in this situation is the pathetic thought of temporarily disrupting a crappy child's video game…

From: IceFire908
Quoting things I didn't say? ;)

So what, if things don't turn out well then you reverse your ideas. Imagine if you never tried anything new, where would you be today? Usually it's almost understandable for the risks involved, but a potential risk in this situation is the pathetic thought of temporarily disrupting a crappy child's video game…

I never said

If you say "you don't care about this community that much", there were no quotation marks in there indicating you used those exact words and said you didn't care. ;)

From: JAD
I never said

If you say "you don't care about this community that much", there were no quotation marks in there indicating you used those exact words and said you didn't care. ;)

Then why did you imply it?

Anyways, my point is there is no excuse for not trying something new, especially when that excuse is disrupting a video game.

From: Smartzkid
I guess Ben gets pissed when I start to get a good argument together.
Once you open pandora's box, you can't shut it.
I hope you know what you're doing, Ben. God I hope you know what you're doing.

Your whole argument has revolved around trying to convince everyone that I'm going to magically change the question to something else. I'm simply asking if you would choose a smarter way over a harder way. Just because you think you know what I'm doing does not mean that you actually know. Its true that you can infer other information out of that question, but you can't specifically say that the same people who chose the smarter way would actually want advancement. But really, would it really make that big of a difference one way or the other? (rhetorical question) Basically, you are here to create drama, and I don't appreciate it. When I want someone to run interference for me, I&#8217;ll give you a call. ;)

From: BenLand100
So, you like the hammer vs. the nail gun? You know the motto of scar right?
"Why do with a shovel what you can do with a bulldozer."
http://www.kaitnieks.com/scar/faq2/
Edit: Did anyone else know why Scar's icon is a bulldozer? :p

i did :) and i i prefer smarter…. if the result is better, then its smarter, if its all about the journey then harder, it's like cross country biking vs. driving.

From: goider
i did :) and i i prefer smarter…. if the result is better, then its smarter, if its all about the journey then harder, it's like cross country biking vs. driving.

Why do people do cross country biking then? What's the point if you can just drive?

I'm guessing because they find it more fun and as more of a challenge then to drive.

Why do people go to work? Isn't it smarter to just rob a bank, or some old woman?

From: mastaraymond
Why do people go to work? Isn't it smarter to just rob a bank, or some old woman?

Because there are consequences?

– This is unrelated to anything else, just a side-ish conversation.

I'm thinking "42"… A big-ass "42" that could cover Times Square…
42
Yeah, that's more like it. Nice *nods head*…

On-Topic:
The smarter way is a friend showing/proposing you a faster, more secure and more efficient way of doing something.
The harder way is you making something slow, unsecure and unefficient.

So basically, the smarter way is your friend showing a version 1.1 or the harder way. If I could finish the harder way, it would mean that I understand it beforehand. I would learn nothing, and get nothing good out of it. The smarter way would teach me stuff, and give me acceptable results.

So I guess I'd choose the smart way, because it is the two combined in a perfect way.

My participation in the flame-war:
(Ben loves to start flame-wars :p)
I can't see what all the uproar is about. It's a matter of choosing 2 ways, and I'm not going to look deeper into metaphors (spelled right?) and the benefits of the journey to the end of whatever "way" you chose, more than necessary. And it is not necessary, since that is not what the question was about.

Goodnight lads. Flame me all you want, just remember that I'll be asleep while you rant about my entitled opinion. See you tomorrow. :D

-Knives

From: BENLAND

Remember when I said that someone could show you a smarter way to do something? I didn't say do a smarter way for you, but rather show you how to do it. You would not be using something smarter, you would be doing something smarter. The advancement that I propose is no different from using SRL vs. doing everything on your own.

but many many many lazy people would not learn, they would just use and abuse. they would rely on the people that knew how to do it smarter, and peaople of little character, leechers, and anyone lazy would be condemnded and allowed to the same fate.

From: LordGregGreg
but many many many lazy people would not learn, they would just use and abuse. they would rely on the people that knew how to do it smarter, and peaople of little character, leechers, and anyone lazy would be condemnded and allowed to the same fate.

You can't control people Greg, even if you could force people it wouldn't work. You know that.

Fate? What is this so called doomsday? It's a game, so if you get screwed over you start over but with more experience; isn't that the beauty of it?

From: IceFire908
You can't control people Greg, even if you could force people it wouldn't work. You know that.

We could control what people get and how good of a bot they get… And we can control what people get that better bot if we do do something using Java.

From: JAD
We could control what people get and how good of a bot they get… And we can control what people get that better bot if we do do something using Java.

Yea and let's say for a second we never moved passed this point in our history, just stay the same forever? Sit around for forever and write scripts based off of color because a few people thought it would be immoral to use a different method? Lets say for a second we release some crazy new extension to SCAR that creates all kinds of new methods, it could turn out amazing or it could utterly fail. You'll never know if you sit around and do the same thing over and over again. Even if it does cause a massive problem, how massive is it really? It could be reversed in a few days let alone the fact that you aren't dealing with anything more than a game.

From: IceFire908
Yea and let's say for a second we never moved passed this point in our history, just stay the same forever? Sit around for forever and write scripts based off of color because a few people thought it would be immoral to use a different method? Lets say for a second we release some crazy new extension to SCAR that creates all kinds of new methods, it could turn out amazing or it could utterly fail. You'll never know if you sit around and do the same thing over and over again. Even if it does cause a massive problem, how massive is it really? It could be reversed in a few days let alone the fact that you aren't dealing with anything more than a game.

This isn't just a game… Sure, our lives aren't going to end if something happens to the game. But if something happens to the game, something happens to us. If autoing takes a turn for the worse, something happens to us.

If it was more advantageous for us to switch to RSDemon… I don't think most of us would have done it, even though it would be trying something new that may turn out good or bad.

I mean… It is just a game. But an important one at that!

[not directed towards your post ice]

This community respects Jackex. We enjoy playing their game, not for the game, but for the intellectual challenge. We play somewhat different than legitimite players, but we try to act natural.

If we make a perfect bot with Java, then where's the intellectual challenge? We don't play the game for the game, (So making perfect bots would just mean perfect bots to get good for the game) we auto in the game for the fun of scar/srl.

ice, this convo is still theoretical, and is not focused really on a java extension.

we are talking about easy or hard way.

"fate" I am talking about " condemning myself to be forever crippled and relying upon someone else."

also, i am not trying to control people. there will be idiot losers who would much rather live in the scum of the world, never raising themselfs up to do something new or different, and always relying upon others to do it for them.

this i know, this will happen, and we call them leachers.

but to get back on subject, my point is that the harder way is better. I may not be able to force myself to make people do it the better way, but i care for these poeple. enough to know that there is more to life than scar and that this decision is critical to many peoples personality. If I can, in any way, help push them in the right direction, I will.

Also, this community is not about the leachers. We do everything we can to transform the leecher into a self sustained, productive, member (scripter). We TEACH them how to script, how to think code, to many people, this is their first exposure to coding, and we do our best to help them.

I believe is not only in our best interest to teach people how to be self sufficient, and to know exactly what they are doing to the point that they could replicate it them self, but it is also our moral responsibility to make them, unless we are willing to hold their hand through life.

And that is why I like the harder way, why I am not controlling people, and why I want to help more people than myself.

Benland is right, teaching people how to do it them self would be perfect. But most will not learn, most will allow them selfs to be lazy and leech. SRL helps push lazy people (all of us) out of this leech cycle by offering benefits for those who learn them selfs, therefore, by it's nature, SRL would be against any self reliance.

From: JAD
This isn't just a game… Sure, our lives aren't going to end if something happens to the game. But if something happens to the game, something happens to us. If autoing takes a turn for the worse, something happens to us.

If it was more advantageous for us to switch to RSDemon… I don't think most of us would have done it, even though it would be trying something new that may turn out good or bad.

I mean… It is just a game. But an important one at that!

[not directed towards your post ice]



If we make a perfect bot with Java, then where's the intellectual challenge? We don't play the game for the game, (So making perfect bots would just mean perfect bots to get good for the game) we auto in the game for the fun of scar/srl.

You missed my entire point?

Yea and let's say for a second we never moved passed this point in our history, just stay the same forever? Sit around for forever and write scripts based off of color because a few people thought it would be immoral to use a different method? Lets say for a second we release some crazy new extension to SCAR that creates all kinds of new methods, it could turn out amazing or it could utterly fail. You'll never know if you sit around and do the same thing over and over again. Even if it does cause a massive problem, how massive is it really? It could be reversed in a few days let alone the fact that you aren't dealing with anything more than a game.

From: LordGregGreg
ice, this convo is still theoretical, and is not focused really on a java extension.

we are talking about easy or hard way.

"fate" I am talking about " condemning myself to be forever crippled and relying upon someone else."

also, i am not trying to control people. there will be idiot losers who would much rather live in the scum of the world, never raising themselfs up to do something new or different, and always relying upon others to do it for them.

this i know, this will happen, and we call them leachers.

but to get back on subject, my point is that the harder way is better. I may not be able to force myself to make people do it the better way, but i care for these poeple. enough to know that there is more to life than scar and that this decision is critical to many peoples personality. If I can, in any way, help push them in the right direction, I will.

Also, this community is not about the leachers. We do everything we can to transform the leecher into a self sustained, productive, member (scripter). We TEACH them how to script, how to think code, to many people, this is their first exposure to coding, and we do our best to help them.

I believe is not only in our best interest to teach people how to be self sufficient, and to know exactly what they are doing to the point that they could replicate it them self, but it is also our moral responsibility to make them, unless we are willing to hold their hand through life.

And that is why I like the harder way, why I am not controlling people, and why I want to help more people than myself.

Benland is right, teaching people how to do it them self would be perfect. But most will not learn, most will allow them selfs to be lazy and leech. SRL helps push lazy people (all of us) out of this leech cycle by offering benefits for those who learn them selfs, therefore, by it's nature, SRL would be against any self reliance.

Ok so back to the "harder"/ "smarter", if you want to relate this to the human race, imagine if every human since the beginning of our existence had this attitude. We do things the harder way not the smarter way, could you imagine where exactly we would be as a society today? I don't even want to think about how dull and boring this place would be. The hard way is cool and hard core and great everything, I like it to, but there comes a time to move on once in a while, this is one of those times…

Edit: Sorry for the dp, merge plz?

From: IceFire908
Ok so back to the "harder"/ "smarter", if you want to relate this to the human race, imagine if every human since the beginning of our existence had this attitude. We do things the harder way not the smarter way, could you imagine where exactly we would be as a society today? I don't even want to think about how dull and boring this place would be. The hard way is cool and hard core and great everything, I like it to, but there comes a time to move on once in a while, this is one of those times…

you can not make anything new or "exciting" unless you already know the basics, and everything leading up to it.

You can not make a mp3 cell phone unless you can also make a light bulb, radio, and other things of the sort.

if who ever invented the radio showed us nothing beyond how to use it, and we did not know how it worked, we could not make a phone untill we re-invented, or learned the radio.

From: LordGregGreg
you can not make anything new or "exciting" unless you already know the basics, and everything leading up to it.

You can not make a mp3 cell phone unless you can also make a light bulb, radio, and other things of the sort.

if who ever invented the radio showed us nothing beyond how to use it, and we did not know how it worked, we could not make a phone untill we re-invented, or learned the radio.

We couldn't even comprehend technology if we refused to utilize it, we'd still be a cave man trying to light a fire by rubbing two sticks together instead of using a lighter and some fire starter. You need to understand the larger picture at state here, you can't just do the same thing your whole life, what's the point of that?

From: IceFire908
We couldn't even comprehend technology if we refused to utilize it, we'd still be a cave man trying to light a fire by rubbing two sticks together instead of using a lighter and some fire starter. You need to understand the larger picture at state here, you can't just do the same thing your whole life, what's the point of that?

im not saying do the same thing.

i am saying that it is a dead end to cripple ourselfs by relying upon someone else. I am saying that that will prevent any and all advancements made, unless (benland) does them himself because he understands all the steps up to it.

this comunitity, in order to continue to push its members foreward, in order to progress, should be all for the hard way.

The large picture at state is more than scar. Advancing people to what ever is next to offer is nothing more than condeming them to leech it.

Doing the same thing? no, not at all. I am against doing the next thing eithout understanding it.

Will you be happy forever if we all take a step foreward, knowing we can never take another one?

I am not, sure, the lazyness in us all may be, but the best way, is the hard way. (because the hard way has no dead ends)

From: LordGregGreg
im not saying do the same thing.

i am saying that it is a dead end to cripple ourselfs by relying upon someone else. I am saying that that will prevent any and all advancements made, unless (benland) does them himself because he understands all the steps up to it.

this comunitity, in order to continue to push its members foreward, in order to progress, should be all for the hard way.

The large picture at state is more than scar. Advancing people to what ever is next to offer is nothing more than condeming them to leech it.

Doing the same thing? no, not at all. I am against doing the next thing eithout understanding it.

Will you be happy forever if we all take a step foreward, knowing we can never take another one?

I am not, sure, the lazyness in us all may be, but the best way, is the hard way. (because the hard way has no dead ends)

But weren't you the same person that said

also, i am not trying to control people. there will be idiot losers who would much rather live in the scum of the world, never raising themselfs up to do something new or different, and always relying upon others to do it for them.

this i know, this will happen, and we call them leachers.

no more than 10 minutes ago?

How are we ever going to advance if when a new idea is raised we shut it down because we are afraid it's going to be something bad or get leeched?

You said using the hard way to advance and you also said it's not doing the same thing over and over again? Don't these two statements contradict them self?

You said we would rely on the creater of the new thing right? Well what about what we have now, what happens if SCAR broke somehow, how many people actually know how to build up their own new project from a real programming language? Take a good look at the real differences here.

From: IceFire908

How are we ever going to advance if when a new idea is raised we shut it down because we are afraid it's going to be something bad or get leeched?

I'm not "afriad" of what will happen. I already know. I am not trying to shoot down new ideas as much as it looks like I am. I am all for new advanced things as long as everyone folows. You know very well that this "smarter" stuff benland is talking about is beyond what most the kids here are capable of. But look, ignoring that, if he wanted to show us how to make something smarter, how to make it update, and how to do everything ourselfs, then that would be fine, we all learn, we all progress, and everyhting is perfect.

From: IceFire908


You said using the hard way to advance and you also said it's not doing the same thing over and over again? Don't these two statements contradict them self?

the change we are talking about is advancement. Advancement can only come from doing it the hard way, at least once. I am for advancement, but I am against the advancement of only one person, and everyone else relying apon it.

From: IceFire908


You said we would rely on the creater of the new thing right? Well what about what we have now, what happens if SCAR broke somehow, how many people actually know how to build up their own new project from a real programming language? Take a good look at the real differences here.

This is a good point and has a good dividing line. This is true, if magically somehow colors stopped to exist and scar couldn't click on them, then we would all be screwed here because we do not know how to make it ourselfs.

but. that is when you look at the community you are dealing with. here at srl, everything is based on scar. scar is the most basic building block, and therefore it is the only allowed exception. we realy on someone elses knowledge only once, and that is here.

If you wish for us to rely on someone elses knowledge, then it will need to be in a different community, it would not belong here.

Like ibot, everyone there relys upon rulers work, and so it has it's own community. or kyab, everyone there relys upon solar and his crew, so it belongs on its own community.

Scar belongs here, any other "smart" advancements that can not be directly linked back to scar "aka , the members could make it themselfs" belong someplace else.

we already rely on srl. Not everyone can tell you what this does

SomeFunctionByBenlandThatsInSrl(x1, y1, x2, y2, x3, y3, x4, y4: Integer; x, y: Integer):
  Boolean;
var
  U, D, R, L: Boolean;
  UB, DB, LB, RB, UM, DM, LM, RM: Extended;
begin
  UM := (-y1 - -y2) div (x1 - x2);
  DM := (-y4 - -y3) div (x4 - x3);
  if x1 - x4 <> 0 then
  begin
    LM := (-y1 - -y4) div (x1 - x4);
  end else
  begin
    LM := Pi;
  end;
  if x2 - x3 <> 0 then
  begin
    RM := (-y2 - -y3) div (x2 - x3);
  end else
  begin
    RM := Pi;
  end;
  UB := -(UM * x1) + -y1
    RB := -(RM * x2) + -y2;
  DB := -(DM * x3) + -y3;
  LB := -(LM * x4) + -y4;
  if (UM * x + UB >= -y) then U := True;
  if (DM * x + DB <= -y) then D := True;
  if (RM <> Pi) and (RM >= 0) and (RM * x + RB <= -y) then R := True;
  if (RM <> Pi) and (RM < 0) and (RM * x + RB >= -y) then R := True;
  if (RM = Pi) and (x < x2) then R := True;
  if (LM <> Pi) and (LM >= 0) and (LM * x + LB >= -y) then L := True;
  if (LM <> Pi) and (LM < 0) and (LM * x + LB <= -y) then L := True;
  if (LM = Pi) and (x > x1) then L := True;
  if U and D and L and R then Result := True;
end;

which means that you already rely on people by doing the smarter way. If you wanted to do the harder way all the way then why not make your own srl?

you could call it NewRL:)

From: JAD
If we make a perfect bot with Java, then where's the intellectual challenge? We don't play the game for the game, (So making perfect bots would just mean perfect bots to get good for the game) we auto in the game for the fun of scar/srl.

Duh? Making the bot. What if (following the same train of thought i've been on) someone gave you a way to make a bot, and told you to make it, or utilize it however you see best?

From: LordGregGreg
but many many many lazy people would not learn, they would just use and abuse. they would rely on the people that knew how to do it smarter, and peaople of little character, leechers, and anyone lazy would be condemnded and allowed to the same fate.

You mean like all of the people who don't script and use Wizzup's essence miner? I fail to see the difference, if you are going to say that no one at SRL is a leacher, you'll be lying.

From: LordGregGreg

ice, this convo is still theoretical, and is not focused really on a java extension.
we are talking about easy or hard way.
"fate" I am talking about " condemning myself to be forever crippled and relying upon someone else."
also, i am not trying to control people. there will be idiot losers who would much rather live in the scum of the world, never raising themselfs up to do something new or different, and always relying upon others to do it for them.
this i know, this will happen, and we call them leachers.

So whats the problem? If they will always be there, why worry about them.

From: LordGregGreg

but to get back on subject, my point is that the harder way is better. I may not be able to force myself to make people do it the better way, but i care for these poeple. enough to know that there is more to life than scar and that this decision is critical to many peoples personality. If I can, in any way, help push them in the right direction, I will.
Also, this community is not about the leachers. We do everything we can to transform the leecher into a self sustained, productive, member (scripter). We TEACH them how to script, how to think code, to many people, this is their first exposure to coding, and we do our best to help them.
I believe is not only in our best interest to teach people how to be self sufficient, and to know exactly what they are doing to the point that they could replicate it them self, but it is also our moral responsibility to make them, unless we are willing to hold their hand through life.
And that is why I like the harder way, why I am not controlling people, and why I want to help more people than myself.
Benland is right, teaching people how to do it them self would be perfect. But most will not learn, most will allow them selfs to be lazy and leech. SRL helps push lazy people (all of us) out of this leech cycle by offering benefits for those who learn them selfs, therefore, by it's nature, SRL would be against any self reliance.

Wouldn't making the learning curve less steep make many less leachers? If it was easier to do grander things, wouldn't more people script? Are you trying to say that there are more scripters than leachers now? By the way, self reliance is relying on one-self, otherwise you are relying on someone else, so I fail to see your point.

From: LordGregGreg

you can not make anything new or "exciting" unless you already know the basics, and everything leading up to it.
You can not make a mp3 cell phone unless you can also make a light bulb, radio, and other things of the sort.
if who ever invented the radio showed us nothing beyond how to use it, and we did not know how it worked, we could not make a phone untill we re-invented, or learned the radio.

Hmm, do you know how frequency modulation or amplitude modulation works? Have you ever been a radio broadcaster? Do you ever really listen to radio? ;) How then do you use a cell phone. Do you even know how a speaker works? :p Are you telling me that you RELY on the cell phone companies? Are you a cellular leacher? Make your own cell phone, hypocrite ;)

From: Dan Cardin
we already rely on srl. Not everyone can tell you what this does
which means that you already rely on people by doing the smarter way. If you wanted to do the harder way all the way then why not make your own srl?
you could call it NewRL:)

Thats a good point, although no one who uses srl would be willing to admit it. Was that the abstract box function?

yep :)

From: BenLand100
Duh? Making the bot.

That's the intellectual challenge for you…

So it comes down to making more of a challenge for 1 person to making less of a challenge for the whole community? Because there's not that many people that are Java gods here, so not that many people can be making the bot.

From: BenLand100
Your whole argument has revolved around trying to convince everyone that I'm going to magically change the question to something else. I'm simply asking if you would choose a smarter way over a harder way. Just because you think you know what I'm doing does not mean that you actually know. Its true that you can infer other information out of that question, but you can't specifically say that the same people who chose the smarter way would actually want advancement. But really, would it really make that big of a difference one way or the other? (rhetorical question) Basically, you are here to create drama, and I don't appreciate it. When I want someone to run interference for me, I&#8217;ll give you a call. ;)

Cut the BS.

XXXYYYZZZ

Yeah. Don't complain about the bleeped words, either; I'm sure you've got the complete convo in your logs. Or of course, if you 'don't keep logs', I can edit the words back in, but that'd ruin the surprise when you release it. Wouldn't want to lessen people's awe and amazement…could affect your god status.

From: Smartzkid
Cut the BS.

Can I say it?

Owned? =)

From: JAD
Can I say it?

Owned? =)

Haha, don't worry, he'll get back at me. I wouldn't be surprised if I came back as a registered user.

From: JAD
That's the intellectual challenge for you…

So it comes down to making more of a challenge for 1 person to making less of a challenge for the whole community? Because there's not that many people that are Java gods here, so not that many people can be making the bot.

i have no clue what he's releasing, but not everyone has to use it. No one's being forced to do anything. So its definitely not going to be "less fun" for the whole community. Thats only to say that whatever it is will take the fun out of it anyway, because you'll still being using scar, which means that you most likely wont need to know java anyway.

From: JAD
Can I say it?

Owned? =)

You're probably going to regret saying that.

From: Smartzkid
Cut the BS.



Yeah. Don't complain about the bleeped words, either; I'm sure you've got the complete convo in your logs. Or of course, if you 'don't keep logs', I can edit the words back in, but that'd ruin the surprise when you release it. Wouldn't want to lessen people's awe and amazement…could affect your god status.

*Thumps Down*

You leaked a private MSN convo between you and BenLand, therefore, you lose.

Respect the members of the forum. Benland is putting in this "BS" for good reason.

From: benland
So whats the problem? If they [leechers] will always be there, why worry about them.

We don't really "worry" about them. But we do care about them, and if you look at this forum and how it is structured, it is made to entertain the leecher while he is lazy (free scripts) while also offering many incentives, as well as the means to not become a leecher.

A new jump in advancement will be fine as long as it doesnt not make everyone (or most people) who are not leechers, to become leechers again. We have members who have learned to script, and unless they have a very good way to learn how to make all this "smart" stuff like you do, they will become leechers again.

From: benland
Wouldn't making the learning curve less steep make many less leachers? If it was easier to do grander things, wouldn't more people script? Are you trying to say that there are more scripters than leachers now?

it may, as they will now be relying on you instead of on freddy, but i belive that it is at that point whne you will need a new comunity.
i know there are more leechers here, but we are always working on them.

From: benland
Hmm, do you know how frequency modulation or amplitude modulation works? Have you ever been a radio broadcaster? Do you ever really listen to radio? How then do you use a cell phone. Do you even know how a speaker works? Are you telling me that you RELY on the cell phone companies? Are you a cellular leacher? Make your own cell phone, hypocrite

benland, i think you wissed my point here. This is not a comunity of just "users" or "leechers", we are trying to make it a comunity of "creators". And yes, we do rely on the cell phone makers, as most people could not make one, which is fine, but we pay for this "leeching" with money. That's just how the world works. If you want a comunity that does nothing but "use" your smarter system, it wont fit here.
[oftopic as for all the questions you asked me, they are all "yes" but i recognise that for the sake of argument, they need to be "no"]

as for making srl the hard way. We "should" be able to. But what we can do is look at the actual code, and learn and figure out for ourselfs exactly how it is made and works, all the way down to scar. There is nothing hidden, and nothing that is imosible here by most of the members.

and as I have been saying, if you provide a really good way to teach people how to make this whole smart thing themselfs, so they can understand and not have to rely on you, then it is fine.

From: Town
*Thumps Down*

You leaked a private MSN convo between you and BenLand, therefore, you lose.

Private? Since when has privacy ever existed online?

But yeah, I probably should shut my mouth about now…

"But what we can do is look at the actual code, and learn and figure out for ourselfs exactly how it is made and works, all the way down to scar. There is nothing hidden, and nothing that is imosible here by most of the members."

Make it open source then.

From: IceFire908
"But what we can do is look at the actual code, and learn and figure out for ourselfs exactly how it is made and works, all the way down to scar. There is nothing hidden, and nothing that is imosible here by most of the members."

Make it open source then.

well, yes and no. you will need to make it so the average jo on this forum could make and understand it himself, or at least provide him the resources to. So if its a java thing, show him where, how, and all about compiling it, etc.
Any updater as well.

From: LordGregGreg
well, yes and no. you will need to make it so the average jo on this forum could make and understand it himself, or at least provide him the resources to. So if its a java thing, show him where, how, and all about compiling it, etc.
Any updater as well.

I thought we didn't want to make "average jo's", you said you wanted this to be a forum full of non-leechers and creaters.

From: IceFire908
I thought we didn't want to make "average jo's", you said you wanted this to be a forum full of non-leechers and creaters.

-.-
we are thinking of different things, allow me to redefine.
average jo := srl member.

From: LordGregGreg
-.-
we are thinking of different things, allow me to redefine.
average jo := srl member.

The only reason no one seems to know java is becasue no one needs to know Java, if there was a need to learn something it wouldn't take that long for most people to figure it out and make easier to follow tutorials. Don't you think so?

From: IceFire908
The only reason no one seems to know java is becasue no one needs to know Java, if there was a need to learn something it wouldn't take that long for most people to figure it out and make easier to follow tutorials. Don't you think so?

uhh, sure. Much in the same way as "necessity is the mother of invention"

I am confident in the capability of the srl members, I estimate that quite a few of them would learn what ben knows given the resources.

From: JAD
That's the intellectual challenge for you…
So it comes down to making more of a challenge for 1 person to making less of a challenge for the whole community? Because there's not that many people that are Java gods here, so not that many people can be making the bot.

I'm not going to make anything, I'm merely providing the means.

From: Smartzkid
Cut the BS.

Yeah. Don't complain about the bleeped words, either; I'm sure you've got the complete convo in your logs. Or of course, if you 'don't keep logs', I can edit the words back in, but that'd ruin the surprise when you release it. Wouldn't want to lessen people's awe and amazement…could affect your god status.

Tell me, if I edited the poll to read "Would you use RSDemon, No, Yes" would it make a difference? No. Then why do you care? You're assuming that I'm telling you the whole story, and that you even understand what I'm telling you. If you read the chat logs (which, by the way, i've kept for over two years) you might notice that I was inferring that out of what was fact, not saying that it was fact.

(7:57 PM) Murtagh: except it wasn't specific
(7:57 PM) Murtagh: you asked a very vague question
(7:58 PM) Ben Land: hence the "even if they don't know it" part
(7:58 PM) Murtagh: but you can't assume they're pro {omitted}
(7:59 PM) Ben Land: they are pro advancement
(7:59 PM) Murtagh: they're pro improvement, but there's other 'parameters' to think about

The fact that people are pro advancement means that they would be willing to try something completely new as long as I can get past their mental block towards anything thats not pure color. Its best to let me work to my own end and complain when I'm done, not try and thwart me (In a plan you support).You fail to see what I see, apparently, and I wouldn't fault you for it if you had behaved :)

From: Smartzkid
Private? Since when has privacy ever existed online?
But yeah, I probably should shut my mouth about now…

The problem is I'm trying to make people understand, and I assumed that because of your position in the community that you would, apparently I was wrong. If anything, your part here will make me rethink telling you anything more than the weather. Which is surprising since you voted for the smarter way yourself… Evangelical much?

From: IceFire908
"But what we can do is look at the actual code, and learn and figure out for ourselfs exactly how it is made and works, all the way down to scar. There is nothing hidden, and nothing that is imosible here by most of the members."
Make it open source then.

Anything new will be open source, as long as the person who writes it makes it open source. All that is written in scar has to be open source, unless encrypted. You want my part?

    public Object getFieldObject(Object o, String path) {
        try {
            String[] parts = path.split("\\.");
            Stack<String> stack = new Stack<String>();
            Field field;
            if (o == null) {
                Class c = gameLoader.loadClass(parts[0]);
                for (int i = parts.length - 1; i > 0; i--)
                    stack.push(parts[i]);
                field = c.getDeclaredField(stack.pop());
                field.setAccessible(true);
                o = field.get(null);
            } else {
                for (int i = parts.length - 1; i >= 0; i--)
                    stack.push(parts[i]);
            }
            if (!stack.empty()) {
                while (!stack.empty()) {
                    String theField = stack.pop();
                    Class theClass = o.getClass();
                    field = null;
                    while (field == null && theClass != Object.class) {
                        try {
                            field = theClass.getDeclaredField(theField);
                        } catch (Exception e) {
                            try {
                                theClass = theClass.getSuperclass();
                            } catch (Exception x) { break; }
                        }
                    }
                    field.setAccessible(true);
                    o = field.get(o);
                }
            }
            return o;
        } catch (Exception e) { }
        return null;
    }

it all depends on which one would give me more knowledge…

if the harder way in the end will give me more knowledge and i will be able to get more/take more out of it then i choose the harder path even though it will take longer but i will be able to understand it better.

if the easier way will give me the same knowledge but wont go as in depth and teach it to be as good then i say screw the easy way because what good does it do if you dont understand it and cant learn from it?

then again it depends on how much i need to know it, as stated by someone before. if it something said like something java then i would like to see it THEN/AND learn it because it will be something i will use for a long time being that i want to be a computer engineer…

From: BenLand100

Anything new will be open source, as long as the person who writes it makes it open source.

that will not do. Everything new needs to be open sourced. I am strongly against any cripleing of this comnity.

like i said, unless you can boil it down to scar, witheverything inbetween understandable and open source. it does not belong at this comunity.

Greg, don't waste your time; there's no way Ben's gonna make the whole thing open source.

And Ben, sorry, I wasn't trying to offend you, but I still think I see where this will go eventually, and I completely disagree that that is the best path, atleast for now. Maybe if you made a few changes that have been mentioned, I'd be a little more convinced.

Oh, and from a post a while back: Drama? If I wanted drama, I wouldn't be at SRL :p

From: LordGregGreg
that will not do. Everything new needs to be open sourced. I am strongly against any cripleing of this comnity.

like i said, unless you can boil it down to scar, witheverything inbetween understandable and open source. it does not belong at this comunity.

So, you don't think SMART should be in this community? How about the box solver plugin? Certer solver plugin? Quiz solver plugin? Or are you just so good that you made your own and don't use those? :rolleyes:

Let me ask you a simple question, if I did release SMART open source, would that improve the situation? :garfield:

From: Smartzkid
Greg, don't waste your time; there's no way Ben's gonna make the whole thing open source.

And Ben, sorry, I wasn't trying to offend you, but I still think I see where this will go eventually, and I completely disagree that that is the best path, atleast for now. Maybe if you made a few changes that have been mentioned, I'd be a little more convinced.

Oh, and from a post a while back: Drama? If I wanted drama, I wouldn't be at SRL :p

im nto trying to make ben do anything. I am trying to show him why the harder way is necisary, and basically it seemed to boil down to either

a. He makes it so where we are not reliant upon him. (aka, we know what he does, and can follow it)

or

b. He makes a diferent comunity for him where his stuff is the base of it.

From: BenLand100
So, you don't think SMART should be in this community? How about the box solver plugin? Certer solver plugin? Quiz solver plugin? Or are you just so good that you made your own and don't use those? :rolleyes:

Let me ask you a simple question, if I did release SMART open source, would that improve the situation? :garfield:

-.-
There isnt any need to threaten here. Nor am I trying to say I am better than you.

This is about wherther the hard way is better or not right? Forgive me for any digressions I made about the "smart" stuff your cooking up.

I apreciate what you are doing for the com unity, but I am, and will always be against any cripling of it.


Also, I feel I have said and covered all point thoroughly. I will not post any more on this thread, you are welcome to pm me about any details.

I have an annoying feeling, that Smartz and Ben aren't talking about this question, but something I don't know about. I hate that feeling.

This is becoming more flame war than answers to a question with 2 possibilities. Did n3ss3s use pseudo-send-to-BBQ-Pit or something?

Anyways, I posted my perception of this a few pages ago, and this will most likely be my final post here. I see no further reason to post :D

And Ben, how come you always ask questions, but you never answer them yourself :p ?

-Knives

From: BenLand100
Let me ask you a simple question, if I did release SMART open source, would that improve the situation? :garfield:

Yes. I like simple questions, they give me the opportunity to give simple answers.

From: LordGregGreg
-.-
There isnt any need to threaten here. Nor am I trying to say I am better than you.

This is about wherther the hard way is better or not right? Forgive me for any digressions I made about the "smart" stuff your cooking up.

I apreciate what you are doing for the com unity, but I am, and will always be against any cripling of it.

I'm not threatening, I'm pointing out that either you are being hypocritical or you just want to argue for the sake or arguing. Like you said:

Everything new needs to be open sourced. I am strongly against any cripleing of this comnity. Like i said, unless you can boil it down to scar, witheverything inbetween understandable and open source. it does not belong at this comunity.

You are saying that if you can't 'boil it down to scar' that it should not be used by SRL correct? The problem is that this is not currently, and never has been, the case. I noticed that you have since voted against SMART in the other poll, way to protect yourself from hypocrisy. I would request that you post why you voted no and let someone other than myself explain it to you. Or, you could explain to me how SMART cripples this community. Beyond SMART, what about the BoxSolver, you conveniently ignored this in your response. What if Jagex modified the box, would the community be crippled?

He makes it so where we are not reliant upon him. (aka, we know what he does, and can follow it)

Excuse me, how many times have I said that I'm not going to be making anything, but you all will? I am providing the means, I'm empowering you and helping you. It would be no different than using SRL.

He makes a diferent comunity for him where his stuff is the base of it.

I am not Solarwind, and I am already in a community where "my stuff is the base of it." Not only am I an admin and a dev, but you all use methods and procedures that I've written, not the least of which being WindMouse.

Also, I feel I have said and covered all point thoroughly. I will not post any more on this thread, you are welcome to pm me about any details.

You might feel like you covered your bases well, but you in fact ignored anything that didn't fit perfectly into your argument. If you want to PM me, I'll post for you.

(No smilies in a post makes Ben an unhappy person :garfield:)

From: BenLand100
I am not Solarwind, and I am already in a community where "my stuff is the base of it." Not only am I an admin and a dev, but you all use methods and procedures that I've written, not the least of which being WindMouse.

You do know that not everything here is based on your work? Else, we could also be saying that this community is based on anyone who's contributed to SRL…? You made WindMouse…great. AbstractBox…great, but useless in my opinion. Remind me about anything else you've made…in SCAR.

This community's based around Fawki…he brought together this community and SRL itself…and he's the best scripter, also in my opinion.

From: Santa_Clause
You do know that not everything here is based on your work? Else, we could also be saying that this community is based on anyone who's contributed to SRL…? You made WindMouse…great. AbstractBox…great, but useless in my opinion. Remind me about anything else you've made…in SCAR.

This community's based around Fawki…he brought together this community and SRL itself…and he's the best scripter, also in my opinion.

He made everything in Math.scar. . . And various other things. Fawki has admitted that many members of the community are better scripters than he is.

From: Santa_Clause
You do know that not everything here is based on your work? Else, we could also be saying that this community is based on anyone who's contributed to SRL…? You made WindMouse…great. AbstractBox…great, but useless in my opinion. Remind me about anything else you've made…in SCAR.

This community's based around Fawki…he brought together this community and SRL itself…and he's the best scripter, also in my opinion.

The community is based on anyone who contributes to SRL… Its based on the SRL include, and if you contribute to SRL you are part of that base. What have I made in SCAR? Nothing that you would know of beyond what you mentioned recently. However, I haven't been a big Scar scripter in over a year and a half. I wrote one of the first good essence miners on Kaitneiks, the only script I ever released public. The mouse spline algorithm I wrote was used in every include after Squig, of which I was the co-author and many java bots (including ARGA, IBot, and that bot Ollie wrote). I helped fakawi when he was learning to script (and I called him fawki in case you wondered where that nickname came from). I was a community member at kaitnieks, on the first page for reputation, and I was one of the few people that both Regex and Oddie would talk to. So, before you call someone a phony, remember that they might have been on the cheating scene for about five years… ;) By the way, I never claimed that SRL was based solely on my work, perhaps when I quoted Greg you got the wrong idea, but that is why I explained it in the next sentence. "Not only am I an admin and a dev, but you all use methods and procedures that I've written, not the least of which being WindMouse." But this is all horribly off topic.

Edit: Bovine Labs FTW

(Not directed at anyone, just a quick thought of mine)

Well I would call this the typical open source question: "Shouldn't everything be open source?". I think it should, look at SCAR, you can say closed source will "cripple the community" but look at what all your bases are close source. I bet few people here know how the basic FindColor works, even fewer probably know how the basic FindBitmap works, shoot I bet almost no-one knows how FindDTM works. That's just the most basic 'color functions' too. Don't you see, you claim it's all intellectual but most of you don't even know whats holding your 'logic' together you just know that when you type in "FindColorSpiralTolerance" or "FindDTMRotated" or "FindSymbol" it might work and it's kinda fun, but do you actually know how the computer scans for these things on the screen and returns coordinates based on the selected client? The truth is you don't, and it's because SCAR is closed source (For some good reasons too) but at the same time it would also be good for newer things to be partially closed source to keep from problems such as reverse engineering and other garbage like that (OpenSCAR).

If I had to guess what most of you fear the most is you loosing your petty "talent" to script better than everyone else, you feel special because people are leeching off you, and that if someone made it a little bit easier and better to do things you might loose some of that "talent" you were once "special for" . I even once read on the KYAB subforms here: "What good is this if any ol-guy could just make a near flawless script", we need to move past our self gratification, it's holding everyone and yourself back more than you realize it.

Lol, the funniest thing I've heard is "omfgosh no.!! SRL will become uselss and all our stuff is gonna be susless and we're ruining our baby" it's funny that someone would blindly be this confident in the work of some very outdated functions that sit around in a huge include that suck up compiling time. Give me a break, the only things out of SRL that are ever used (or should be used) are simple things like Flag; LogOut; LogInPlayer, PlayerArray, IsUpText, Mouse, MMouse, BankScreen, InPin, InChat, ChooseOption, and Anti-Randoms. Everything other than that can just be deleted because it's all much more efficient if you just build some common sense and use some of that "talent" you're supposed to have to make custom functions made for the purpose of what you're designing. If not then why not just use KYAB or the next big advance program extension, you're not doing it yourself in the first place so how does it differ, you might even have to do more than you used to do.

If you were smart you would go along with what BenLand's wants to do because you are very lucky he doesn't just say "screw this" and quit or start another community (like KYAB); but BenLand is smart enough to know what he's doing now is more effective to attract people.

As a final statement I will say if you think to save SRL you need to keep it focused on what it is now… It's the complete opposite way around, and that some of you know which road you would take "Smarter or Harder" that's not the problem, the real problem is you don't know which way is "Smarter or Harder".

Is that cutting enough bull shit for you?

-IceFire

From: Town
He made everything in Math.scar. . . And various other things. Fawki has admitted that many members of the community are better scripters than he is.

Haven't you heard of modesty…?

From: Santa_Clause
Haven't you heard of modesty…?

Modesty isn't putting yourself down, its not talking yourself up.

As far as I know, saying that people are better than him is putting them up, and not him down…Modesty FTW.

yea but he wasnt putting himself up. He was saying benland's stuff, not his own :)

To do something smarter, you must know how to do the hard way.


You can't teach people logic either. Thats like teaching someone how to use a programming language. You can teach them the syntax, but you can't teach them how to apply the knowledge they have.

From: Santa_Clause
As far as I know, saying that people are better than him is putting them up, and not him down…Modesty FTW.

wtf is up with you lately? all you do is go around making useless posts creating arguments. and for the record. modesty is "freedom from vanity or conceit". yes, fawki is definately not vain or conceited. but telling someone else that they are a better scripter than you is not showing modesty. if its not true, and they arent a better scripter than you, then id call it talking shit, and fishing for compliments. NOT modesty. so are you saying that fawki is talking shit? or are you actually going to listen and believe him when he says other people are better scripters than him???? why would he lie anyway? to get people to say "no no fawki, no one is better than you!!" like a 13 year old girl calling herself ugly to get told shes hot? no.

anyways gtfb on topic and stop making useless posts.

What? I don't speak Internet. Do you perhaps know standard US English?

Smarter. Time is money. I'm also lazy, so I'd take the easiest way I can find.

From: The Claw
wtf is up with you lately? all you do is go around making useless posts creating arguments. and for the record. modesty is "freedom from vanity or conceit". yes, fawki is definately not vain or conceited. but telling someone else that they are a better scripter than you is not showing modesty. if its not true, and they arent a better scripter than you, then id call it talking shit, and fishing for compliments. NOT modesty. so are you saying that fawki is talking shit? or are you actually going to listen and believe him when he says other people are better scripters than him???? why would he lie anyway? to get people to say "no no fawki, no one is better than you!!" like a 13 year old girl calling herself ugly to get told shes hot? no.

anyways gtfb on topic and stop making useless posts.

What the heck? I say Fawki was being modest, and you say something about him not talking himself up…you called my post useless when you made a post very similar to it just before that.

From: The Claw
More like you want a pin. You can still logon and do stuff on free worlds

You're saying I'm the one that posts just to start arguments?

Anyway, back on topic. We'll discuss this on MSN if you like.

:O
1.1. Q. Where can I download current ‘clean’ versions of Scar?

A. www.poonscape.com has a clean and current version.

I went to poonscape and came up with some porn search website.

From: Santa_Clause
What the heck? I say Fawki was being modest, and you say something about him not talking himself up…you called my post useless when you made a post very similar to it just before that.



You're saying I'm the one that posts just to start arguments?

Anyway, back on topic. We'll discuss this on MSN if you like.

nah, dont worry about discussing over msn unless you want to. sorry for that post, i was in a bad mood at the time..it was slightly annoying but i guess i over-reacted. sorry dude

I'd Prob go with smarter and shorter.

From: The Claw
nah, dont worry about discussing over msn unless you want to. sorry for that post, i was in a bad mood at the time..it was slightly annoying but i guess i over-reacted. sorry dude

It's cool…I still love you. Has this discussion finished? It was interesting seeing Smartz and Ben battle it out.

From: Santa_Clause
It's cool…I still love you. Has this discussion finished? It was interesting seeing Smartz and Ben battle it out.

sure. :)

Harder, I feel the same as Frank Herbert's Tleilaxu. When someone has become something, it would rather face destruction than change into something else. Even to survive.