SRL Archive - Discussions & Debates

Didn't know where the heck to put this so I put it here :p

I've been very interested in computers for the longest time. The first language I mastered was here (pascal/delphi/scar or whatever). I've wanted to learn a lot more about computers since then and learn some other, more powerful languages and be able to do amazing things with the computer like Benland/Freddy/Kaitnieks…etc. have done.

So I was wondering, how did people like that learn how to do what they do? I've been taking online courses at a ed2go.com which is a site where you can take online computer courses, and I've learned some about html and right now I'm getting the basics of ASP .net and Java down from there. But I just want to know what I should be studying.

Even though everybody says making an MMORPG like runescape by yourself is impossible, I'm also curious to know what you'd need to learn to do that? Just pure Java?

Any advice on what to learn and all that would be appreciated :)

Making a MMORPG by yourself is possible, its just that the graphics`might actually take longer than the coding. I think I read somewhere that a majority of Jagex's employees are on graphics development.


But people like that didn't learn how to do what they do, as learning the syntax of a language is much different than learning how to be smart and use the logic of the language. They are naturally capable to understand the abstract logic of their problems.

I'm currently on my way to being awesome. So I'd suggest not using ASP or .NET, (unless its C++.NET) but turning to PHP and ASCII C/Unmanaged C++.


EDIT: RS is probably in pure Java to keep it system independent.

Well outside of programming. If you get CCIE (cisco certified internet? engineer) THen you are pretty much a good. Only 1100 in the world. Im Currently up to CCNA. Prob in years time i will go to CCNP. And then one more to CCIE.

But yes. CCIE. You are pretty much a fucking god in the networking world. Pretty much you can get any job you want.

From: R0b0t1
RS is probably in pure Java to keep it system independent.

Hmm… Then learning Java is just as good as learning something like C++? Because if Jagex can make a cool game like that with it, maybe I can make a game that's not complete crap with it ;)

But as for graphics, do they draw all the shapes themselves all with code in the applet? Or do they use photoshop/paint shop pro….etc. and upload images like that into the applet?

But as for graphics, do they draw all the shapes themselves all with code in the applet? Or do they use photoshop/paint shop pro….etc. and upload images like that into the applet?

I think they use some sort of designing programs, but they cannot put there graphics good as CSS/Guild Wars/Console games etc, because it would propably make it tougher for the engine or whatever run it, and I am starting to lose the idea of what the hell am I talking about.

But yes, I think that the graphics team doesn't do java stuff that much…

Its hard to put a finger on how they create the images, but I'd guess designed images. It'd take a long time to make code to draw something =\.


You got the reason the graphics are so simple: Its a web application, and it is made in Java. I think the web-app part has more to do with the speed, though.

From: R0b0t1
Its hard to put a finger on how they create the images, but I'd guess designed images. It'd take a long time to make code to draw something =\.


You got the reason the graphics are so simple: Its a web application, and it is made in Java. I think the web-app part has more to do with the speed, though.

Designed images? Please explain.

I don't know anything about graphics yet. That's next on my list of things to learn.

But how do you get it to work? With the person turning and all that. Do they use something like photo shop? Or is it some 4000000$ software or whatever? :p

From: JAD
Designed images? Please explain.

They've most likely got like sprites or something of for example enemies etc.

Hmm.. But about making 2D images into 3d like they do. They couldn't possibly make the charactors and everything from every different angle… Right?

My brother said something about them using Auto Desk or something like that which can help make a 2D image into a 3D image. Anybody know of that program or a different program that would help with that?

you can do that with gamespace :)

i saw a tut on making a character with it and u make a side and a front veiw. Then you make a block and edit the vertices and add vertices to make it a more complicated shape

From: Dan Cardin
you can do that with gamespace :)

i saw a tut on making a character with it and u make a side and a front veiw. Then you make a block and edit the vertices and add vertices to make it a more complicated shape

Looks pretty cool. I may have to look into getting that. Thanks.

They make a flat image and use software to wrap it around a 3D sprite. Have you ever use VTF edit to look at the CS:S skins? They are one flat image, but the computer wraps them around an object…

well where do they get the 3d sprite O.o
ur just talking about the outside look. I thought he was talking about the actual 3d part. (cuz u can do the wrapping 2d image thing in like…all 3d programs. 3dsmax, maya, gamespace, etc)

From: R0b0t1
They make a flat image and use software to wrap it around a 3D sprite. Have you ever use VTF edit to look at the CS:S skins? They are one flat image, but the computer wraps them around an object…

What's a 3d sprite? Lol. I'm so confused…. :p :confused:

Its an entity that the computer recognizes as a "solid object".

From: R0b0t1
Its an entity that the computer recognizes as a "solid object".

And how do you get one/use one?

Sorry for all the questions lol.

Short version: The images are editing in real time. They're not pre-rendered bitmaps. They're sprites (individual bitmaps of characters and buildings), drawn onto a blank canvas. That's all.

Longer version (if you don't know how graphics work): It'd be easier to understand graphics programming if you look at it from a different angle…

This angle is just a little hard to explain.

You know how fonts in SCAR work, right? If you want to get the text from the upper left hand corner of the RuneScape game screen, you have SCAR construct a bitmap mask of the letters.

Picture that, but in reverse. Instead of creating the bitmap mask to see if it matches something on the screen, you create a bitmap (not a bitmap mask) of something, to display it on the screen.

Now try to think back to the DOS days. Everything was textual. All the operating system had to do was take in user input, process the user input, and respond with something that the user could see.

I'm sure you know this, but display is not necessary for the working of a computer. All the important code is processed behind the scenes.

When things evolved from text-base, to window-management, things got a little more complicated. Instead of simply displaying text, it [the operating system] had to handle movement of the mouse cursor (That is, where on the screen it places the bitmap of the mouse cursor.), the overlaying of the program icons on the white desktop background, etc.

Notice I said it just got a little more complicated? Not impossible. Just more code for the programmer to handle. The technology was already there. It just had to be manipulated to work differently.

Now we're gonna move onto something relevant to the topic of the thread. That is, how this applies to gaming.

When the programmer writes the code to make the character move one square to the north, he's displaying a series of frames that are editing in real time. The only pre-rendered graphics there are, are the sprites of the characters and buildings in the game.

*Rereads post*

Dang I ramble a lot… :rolleyes:

I suggest learning ASP.NET and then learn C++. Why? Well ASP is one of the newest languages and in the future you will probably see it be used more often. Im learning ASP atm and some java.

From: Jason2gs
Short version: The images are editing in real time. They're not pre-rendered bitmaps. They're sprites (individual bitmaps of characters and buildings), drawn onto a blank canvas. That's all.

Longer version (if you don't know how graphics work): It'd be easier to understand graphics programming if you look at it from a different angle…

This angle is just a little hard to explain.

You know how fonts in SCAR work, right? If you want to get the text from the upper left hand corner of the RuneScape game screen, you have SCAR construct a bitmap mask of the letters.

Picture that, but in reverse. Instead of creating the bitmap mask to see if it matches something on the screen, you create a bitmap (not a bitmap mask) of something, to display it on the screen.

Now try to think back to the DOS days. Everything was textual. All the operating system had to do was take in user input, process the user input, and respond with something that the user could see.

I'm sure you know this, but display is not necessary for the working of a computer. All the important code is processed behind the scenes.

When things evolved from text-base, to window-management, things got a little more complicated. Instead of simply displaying text, it [the operating system] had to handle movement of the mouse cursor (That is, where on the screen it places the bitmap of the mouse cursor.), the overlaying of the program icons on the white desktop background, etc.

Notice I said it just got a little more complicated? Not impossible. Just more code for the programmer to handle. The technology was already there. It just had to be manipulated to work differently.

Now we're gonna move onto something relevant to the topic of the thread. That is, how this applies to gaming.

When the programmer writes the code to make the character move one square to the north, he's displaying a series of frames that are editing in real time. The only pre-rendered graphics there are, are the sprites of the characters and buildings in the game.

*Rereads post*

Dang I ramble a lot… :rolleyes:

Few questions still, although that explained how it worked, I want to understand more how to make it work.

how do you make/run these series of frames? Do they use flash or something? And when the character moves, you can no longer see some space because you can't see through that charactor. How does that work?

Can you explain to me what sprites are again exactly?

You seem very knowledgeable on graphics/animation so I think it'd be very beneficial for me to get as much information from you on the subject as I can if you could :)

From: JAD
Few questions still, although that explained how it worked, I want to understand more how to make it work.

how do you make/run these series of frames? Do they use flash or something? And when the character moves, you can no longer see some space because you can't see through that charactor. How does that work?

Can you explain to me what sprites are again exactly?

You seem very knowledgeable on graphics/animation so I think it'd be very beneficial for me to get as much information from you on the subject as I can if you could :)

Well, the engine of the game is built on Java, so Java would be the one to make and run them.

If you want an example of what the actual code looks like for it, then you can either take a look at a small Java script I made a while ago, or look up on Google: Animation in Java.

http://pastebin.com/mbabde8c

The reason the character clips a little is due to one thing and one thing only: Bad coding ^_^

Edit: Doi! That's not what you meant is it? Could you please restate it? I don't think I understood you.

Sprites…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprite_(computer_graphics)

And I don't claim to be any more than I am. And right now - in Java - I'm a beginner :)

Hmph, seems my first post wasn't all to easy to understand…

Alright, here's a pretty good example. You know how an icons can handle transparent pixels? Minimize this screen, and make your desktop visible. Look at any one of your icons, and notice how it's not exactly squared? Well, it is, technically, squared. It's just that anywhere that there's not a definitive color, there's a transparent pixel. That transparent pixel gets whatever color of the pixel that's right below it, and borrows it. That way, the icon of the file 'fits in' more with the background.

In the days of DOS, the operating system didn't have to worry about anything like that. Just bitmaps of letters. That's all. The bitmaps just had to squeeze up together with each other and blend into the background. When Microsoft made their window manager for DOS (hence the name, Windows), they had a little more than just displaying text to worry about. They had to deal with a cursor, displaying a wider range of colors, etc.

And it grew from there. Each stage Microsoft took was just a little harder than the first, but it was doable.

Hopefully that cleared up a little of what I said before. I was feeling a little rushed when I was writing it. Didn't have time to throughly check it out.

Thanks a lot Jason, I think that about cleared it all up. I'll post again if I have any more questions and if you'd still be willing to answer them :)

Do you get on msn often?

Heh, all the time :)

*Points up to the upper right-hand corner of the post*

first you program a computer to worship you as a god then you sit there and be worshiped as a god:p

i would sujest trying to make a sript from scrach something no one has done yet

like a script for a long quest

then just keep going up the lader with harder things

From: JAD
…do amazing things with the computer like Benland/Freddy/Kaitnieks…etc. have done.

Sweet, I was first ;)

Anyway, I would just like to throw out that making a game like RS by yourself would be a nightmare. Your first major step would be getting the 3d rendering down, which really wouldn't be that hard (assuming you are already a math god and understand 3d transformations), but then you would have to design the system to control whats rendered, add in server communication, and then you've got the ability to render, but nothing to render, so you make that. However, after months of nonstop work, all you've got is something that looks pretty, you haven't got anything near a game yet. It took the runescape development team over two years to get runescape2 playable, then they began designing the rest of the world, which took another six months or so. Go figure on how long it would take someone to do by themselves as a hobby. :rolleyes:

From: BenLand100
Sweet, I was first ;)

Anyway, I would just like to throw out that making a game like RS by yourself would be a nightmare. Your first major step would be getting the 3d rendering down, which really wouldn't be that hard (assuming you are already a math god and understand 3d transformations), but then you would have to design the system to control whats rendered, add in server communication, and then you've got the ability to render, but nothing to render, so you make that. However, after months of nonstop work, all you've got is something that looks pretty, you haven't got anything near a game yet. It took the runescape development team over two years to get runescape2 playable, then they began designing the rest of the world, which took another six months or so. Go figure on how long it would take someone to do by themselves as a hobby. :rolleyes:

Hmm…

Was runescape classic, the first release of runescape, worked on by lots of people or just a few?

Because I know I couldn't make a game as complex as runescape by myself, but I could make a very very simple/basic version of a skill based Java game like that and work my way to making it more complex, couldn't I? Or would that still be a nightmare?

Nightmare galore.


EDIT: Depends how basic…

DeviousMUD was the first version of RS. It was never released to the public, and AFAIK, it was worked on by only Andrew Gower and perhaps his brother, Paul.

From: Jason2gs
DeviousMUD was the first version of RS. It was never released to the public, and AFAIK, it was worked on by only Andrew Gower and perhaps his brother, Paul.

Do you know what you could do in that first version and approximately how long it took him/how many hours he put into it a day?

I'm just curious to see how possible this is so I don't waste my time :p

Wouldn't know. I'd think he most likely had to hold down a job, because a game that isn't released to the public is a little hard to make money from :)

DeviousMUD, the forerunner to RuneScape, was created in 1998 by Andrew Gower. The game, which was never publicly released, used isometric graphics. In 1999, Gower completely rewrote the game

So he made it in 1998, and in 1999 he rewrote it. So about a year? Don't know very much about it. Sorry ^_^

Edit: It's impossible for it to be a complete waste of time. Even if it doesn't turn into much, it'd still be a great learning experience.

From: Jason2gs
DeviousMUD was the first version of RS. It was never released to the public, and AFAIK, it was worked on by only Andrew Gower and perhaps his brother, Paul.

2D sprites, simplifies the process a lot. ;) Making a text based game is no problem, 2D sprites is just a slight step in the upwards direction. Making a true 3D game like RS2, not RSC as it was mostly sprites, would be next to impossible for a single person.

From: BenLand100
2D sprites, simplifies the process a lot. ;) Making a text based game is no problem, 2D sprites is just a slight step in the upwards direction. Making a true 3D game like RS2, not RSC as it was mostly sprites, would be next to impossible for a single person.

Technically, everything on a computer monitor is 2D, isn't it? :p but I get the difference.

Was RSC 2D?

I'm confused as to how to make sprites. Maybe I still don't get what they are… Lol. Or maybe I'm just graphically declined if that makes sense :p

Yes, it was. I've played it… *shrieks in the background*

You should search google… I think you would also need a gaming engine, or program yourself an engine so that it can interpret the sprites. From there, follow the engines architecture/manual.

From: R0b0t1
Yes, it was. I've played it… *shrieks in the background*

You should search google… I think you would also need a gaming engine, or program yourself an engine so that it can interpret the sprites. From there, follow the engines architecture/manual.

K thanks. Any suggestions on what to google? Although I could probably figure it out :p

"Open source gaming engine"
"How to write sprite-based game in Java/Language of choice"

Those might not work exactly, try along those lines.

From: R0b0t1
"Open source gaming engine"
"How to write sprite-based game in Java/Language of choice"

Those might not work exactly, try along those lines.

K, thanks!

I think my bro got his CCNA (one of the cisco things and he said he can quit highschool now and get like a $50,000 a year job…obviously he didn't) in high school. He is really good with comps. I think once I'm done with pascal, I'm gona do VB then Java. I remember my bro making a small game with his friend (he did the programing) and I don't remember to much more, but I wanta do something like that. I'v already planned to learn most these languages in my vaction. Thanks for the sites I'll check out ed2go in a sec, but it better be free…

From: osmm
I think my bro got his CCNA (one of the cisco things and he said he can quit highschool now and get like a $50,000 a year job…obviously he didn't) in high school. He is really good with comps. I think once I'm done with pascal, I'm gona do VB then Java. I remember my bro making a small game with his friend (he did the programing) and I don't remember to much more, but I wanta do something like that. I'v already planned to learn most these languages in my vaction. Thanks for the sites I'll check out ed2go in a sec, but it better be free…

ed2go isn't free… :p

But it's an amazing place to learn almost all languages.

IDK… prolly an good and confy chair and an encornomic/optical (healthy related i think?) keyboard and mouse and good screen with atleast 30 cm away from your eye balls, some coffe, internet, and just find free tutorials of the language you need, and prolly not a life (if your 22+ 22- like me can chill until we need an life).

hope all of the above makes sense

I wouldn't suggest doing VB… Unless you seriously can't grasp Java or C/C++.