SRL Archive - News and General

I was thinking about this big question, I have been thinking about it for a long time now. What keeps you alive?
I mean really, it's the same shit every morning. You wake up at 7 am, go to school, read some stuff you are not interested in, get back home, do your homework and after that you might go to friends or stay at computer.

That's how my life was/is. Why are we really here? It doesn't make any sense, first you go to elementary school for 6 years and after that you go to upper level for 3 more years. After that you got couple of choices, but anyways basically 3 more years of studying.
Let's count that together. Yes. 12 years "wasted" reading mostly stuff you will never use/need. After that you still have no job. So you go to university or to some other place for ATLEAST 3 years. 15 years of studying so far. Why? So you can work for the rest of your life. Cool. Now you have been studying for fucking 15 years, you still got no job, soon you will get your first real job and then you keep working for rest of your life. Life well spend, isn't it? No.

I had enough of this week or two ago, I quitted my school and I'm trying to get job for now, I just had my 17th birthday. I really don't what will happen now, but atleast I'm living now. I have no worries for now. But I just have really nothing to live for. Think about it. What is the meaning of life? Who created us? Why are we here? Why can't we understand time and space fully?

These are questions that I think every day before I go to sleep, and I still haven't understood it, and maybe I never will. Only thing I'm living for now is weekends when I get drunk and forget everything. I haven't seen even one happy dream for a long time, most of my dreams are about close friends dying, me dying, taking drugs and things like that. It's not funny lol.
I have talked to one my friend about drugs, he said it could help to try once, to see more things. He said it's okay if you can just handle everything that is inside your head. But let's see how this goes. That's my story, I just felt writing for now. :)

So the question is, what keeps you alive? Studying? Finding out more? Love? Work?

So the question is, what keeps you alive? Studying? Finding out more? Love? Work?

This community and my other friends.

And no, the studying isn't waste, you learn English to speak here, you learn math to use trig in SCAR.

soon you will get your first real job and then you keep working for rest of your life. Life well spend, isn't it? No.

Thats if you decide to get a job you will do just to have a job.

You need to have something you really want to do, something that makes you feel that what you did maybe affected someone elses life in a good way :)

Thats how I think.

Well, first of all, i am not really someone to judge about this. i'm pretty much priveliged, i am good at school and have rich parents. I can understand your question but i strongly urge you to go back to school:(. Why? so you can choose a job you enjoy. Really, go back to school!

Oh, you quit school?!

Dude, you gotta get back there!

From: n3ss3s

You need to have something you really want to do, something that makes you feel that what you did maybe affected someone elses life in a good way :)

Thats how I think.

What I really would like to do is ride dirtbike, but the problem is that in modern society everything is about money, so I can't really work and ride dirtbike at the same time, can I? Maybe as free time hobby, but not as professional.

I have been thinking about going abroad as peacekeeper to think about things for few years, making some money and helping other people. It can be dangerous, but maybe that's just better. I have always tought about others before thinking myself, so maybe that job could be great for me.

Well Secet, all the things you said remind me alot of the way i used to think when i was your age. It was also the reason i flunked 3 years in highschool. You go to school studying, and will only need half of the things they teach you, and if your lucky you can use that half in your job. When i started working, they had to teach me everything there, cause those wheren't the things they covered in school. Makes you ask questions about the system.

Drug is a mind altering experience, i've tryed most of them so i know what i'm talking about. Believe me, when you and a friend are on an acid trip, and your friend believes he can fly and dives of the balcony on the 6th floor, believe me, it's really mind altering.

Life is about daring to take a chance, that's what i believe in. Last year i quit my job, and moved from Belgium to Thailand and started a business here, now i have people working for me, and i'm doing what i want.

If you wanne ride a dirtbike or become a peacekeeper, then go for it, make it happen, then you'll get the experiences in life your searching for.
Like we say in Belgium "wie niet waagd blijft maagd" basic rough translation, "they that don't dare, stay a virgin" :D

From: Killerdou
Well, first of all, i am not really someone to judge about this. i'm pretty much priveliged, i am good at school and have rich parents. I can understand your question but i strongly urge you to go back to school:(. Why? so you can choose a job you enjoy. Really, go back to school!

Missed the point, and we talked in MSN so I'm not commenting the same things here. :)

From: Psychor
Well Secet, all the things you said remind me alot of the way i used to think when i was your age. It was also the reason i flunked 3 years in highschool. You go to school studying, and will only need half of the things they teach you, and if your lucky you can use that half in your job. When i started working, they had to teach me everything there, cause those wheren't the things they covered in school. Makes you ask questions about the system.

Drug is a mind altering experience, i've tryed most of them so i know what i'm talking about. Believe me, when you and a friend are on an acid trip, and your friend believes he can fly and dives of the balcony on the 6th floor, believe me, it's really mind altering.

Life is about daring to take a chance, that's what i believe in. Last year i quit my job, and moved from Belgium to Thailand and started a business here, now i have people working for me, and i'm doing what i want.

If you wanne ride a dirtbike or become a peacekeeper, then go for it, make it happen, then you'll get the experiences in life your searching for.
Like we say in Belgium "wie niet waagd blijft maagd" basic rough translation, "they that don't dare, stay a virgin" :D

Good post. I think you really understand me, and I understand you. But it's just kinda fucked up in this society to try something brave, first everybody says:"Go for it! Be brave!" but when everything falls apart and you have nothing left, where are those who cheered you to go for it? Vanished.
I got some experiences about drugs as well, one bad… We were having a party and we were going to sleep soon. Then my friend who had taken drugs came into room with knife and said:"I'm gonna kill someone… I'm gonna kill someone…" so… That really makes me think do I want to take drugs or not. But thanks for posting. :)

Secet, you are the kind of person the governments hate. (You're questioning the system. ZOMG!)


The reason of life is to live.

r0b0t, thats the same as "Until(False)"!

Now I could say
"why to live life to live life"
and you could say
"to live life to live life to live life" etc.

Function Explanation: Boolean;

If Explanation Then Break;

No its not, you're just not thinking.

Well Its my opinion, IMO its same as you would look at your eye in the mirror, where you could see the mirror where you see your eye etc…

But hey, you think it different way, no prob.

From: Secet
What is the meaning of life? Who created us? Why are we here? Why can't we understand time and space fully?

The meaning of life is to live, simply, speculating these questions is nothing but trivial; I've adopted the simple answer the meaning of life is to do everything but wonder what the meaning of life is. Life can seem repetitive and meaningless but if you stick with it long enough good things can happen.

What is the meaning of life? Who created us? Why are we here? Why can't we understand time and space fully?

Meaning of life: 42.
Who created us: Star Dust.
Why are we here: We're really not.
Why can't we understand time and space fully: Because not everyone knows Benland.

But really what "keeps me going" each day, is that fact that I "know" I'm going to do something important in this world. Every day I go to sleep wondering what can I do to make my dream come true. And when I wake up a usually have a good idea of what I can do to further myself in life. If you go to sleep thinking about becoming an astronaut and you wake up and aren't thinking about it, in your mind, deep down, you really don't want to become an astronaut. You may want the fame of being one, but you really don't want to be one.

Really as some people say, The Glass is Half Full / The Glass is Half Empty.

I say "Depends on whats in the glass" and really if you think about it, its not just me being a smartass it has more meaning too it.

I live because of all the love I get and give. I live for my friends, my family and for this community. This very place has become my third home (parents = divorced) because of the exact thing we are doing now. Having mature conversations, understanding and most of all: Mutual respect.

If you got a decent work, you could ride dirtbike in your sparetime, and as time goes, you'll be able to join competitions, perhaps.

Under no circumstances would I recommend anyone to take drugs. I simply wouldn't. It's too dangerous for 2 hours of fun.

I go to school and I am here because I am following my dreams. My first is to become a schoolteacher, which binds me to keep up in school, and the second is to become a programmer, and you can guess where I'm learning that.

Martin Luther King: "I have a dream!"
One from the audience: "Go for it!"

^^ Did he get anywhere by following his dreams and sharing them? Yes.

For now, I wish you all luck with finding a job.

-Knives

I've talked about this question some time ago to a friend of mine.Although it was more like, what do you achieve in life? In my opinion, we achieve nothing.. In most cases we haven't changed the world, we only used it. So why would we learn? Do work? When we don't achieve something, why aren't we stealing from rich people? Getting drunk all day by borrowing money from the government?

Why are there schools in the first plays? Because they want us to learn something so we can do a job. Why would we do a job? So the economy gets better. Who benefits from this? The country, society..
Our whole way of living is controlled by people who stand close to us (Friends, Family, Television, Teachers, Newspaper, Books etc…)

I've no answer to your question, nor mine, i just want to spam a bit ;)

~Raymond

I heard my name! Anyway, you think like me and a few other people I know (very few of us) do. Its true, living within the system is only good if the system serves you well, if you don't like it, screw it over and make your own. Do nothing because someone else tells you to, only because you want to. Follow no laws other than your own, it just might happen that your laws correlate with the 'established' laws. Do not believe anything anyone tells you if you don't want to. If life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade, thats what everyone wants you to do, unless you just feel like having lemonade at the moment. Instead, do whatever you feel like, just remember, its in most people's best interest to live within society at least until they are in a position to overthrow it, or if its about to overthrow itself.
Think about it, if enough of us get together and stop paying taxes, the government collapses. However if one person stops paying taxes, he gets jail time. An intelligent man with a machine gun can only do so much against an army of non-thinkers who shoot when the general says fire.

But really, why does someone else have to have created us? Is it so hard to believe that we make ourselves what we are? Needless to say the universe came from somewhere, and there was possibly some super-natural force responsible for making us these nice fleshy bodies. But what is you: your body or your mind? Would you still be you in another body? All human bodies are basically the same. And really, all living creatures boil down to the same basic elements. Furthermore, all matter is made of the same stuff. So what makes you, you? A little fact for you, [supercomputer] microprocessors have now exceeded the computational power of a human brain. Not to say that there are just more transistors than neurons, since a neuron can do more than a transistor can, but that they are literally more powerful. But we still haven't made a computer able to think on its own. A computer is only as good as the code that it runs, even if it is a self adapting neural network. But is the same true for a person? The only reason a chess playing computer can beat a person is because it is using the combined knowledge of hundreds upon hundreds of people and is evaluating previously made decisions. Is that all that people do? You can answer that for yourself. Personally, I believe there is more to it that simple calculation and firing of neurons.

What keeps me alive? Or better: Why do I continue to live? Because I value highly my ability to think and make my own choices and watch them play out. If you want to have a better life and don't wish to follow the path leading to the destruction of mass-non-thinking, move to a third world country, preferably in South America or Africa. You'll find a reason to live in no time at all. ;)

Edit: If you need something to do at the moment, learn the language in my signature… might be useful one of these days, who knows…

Thanks Ben for very great post.
I really agree what you say. I will probably move away from Finland someday, I don't want to get stuck in here. I would like to take few year holiday, get a motorbike and then just tour the whole world. But again, it takes money. But I will get it somewhere, somehow… I really have to think about peacekeeper job, atleast I would see the other side of this planet. Might be worse, but it also might be better in some cases…

[offtopic]
Just wondering… Are you fluent in that language, Ben? I love the LOTR movies but the books are… crap… In danish at least. Maybe we had a sucky translator, maybe the books just suck. I don't know. I just don't like them.
[/offtopic]

@ Secet: Find a motorbike-travelling-circus and do stunts for them :D Combining your hobby with a job. Perfect :D

-Knives

From: King of Knives
[offtopic]
Just wondering… Are you fluent in that language, Ben? I love the LOTR movies but the books are… crap… In danish at least. Maybe we had a sucky translator, maybe the books just suck. I don't know. I just don't like them.
[/offtopic]

Its English, written in one of Tolkien's character sets ;) And yes, I can read in it and write in it. Also, I think its just danish. ;)

@Secet's sig: No one is remembered for what they didn't do unless they should have done it ;)

So what does your siggy say? "Ye giddy goose" or something?

-Knives

From: King of Knives
So what does your siggy say? "Ye giddy goose" or something?

-Knives

My name, Benjamin Joseph Land :p
Also, another thought that I can't believe I missed: A government exists to govern and protect those who can't themselves, so why, again, do I need a government?

You talk like you're in depression atm.

But, runescape keeps me alive. :p

Here is a little something i wrote in 9th grade English.. You might like it..

We are all aware of the fact that we are trying to be controlled. Day by day we go about living our lives not realizing that the decisions we make could not be our own. T.V., the media, advertising, we are all victims. They have created a world of illusion that covers our eyes, telling us what is good and what is not, to push their products into our minds.

Corporate parasites appealing to our basic instincts of lust…greed…and fear, manipulating our desires to mold a false image or ourselves. Dependent on their products to "fit in" only to further line their pockets with cash, and live the American dream of excess and greed. Setting the standards of what's sexually appealing and what sounds are pleasing, only to suck a world where physical sensations are the only things that drive them. Seeking lust, anger, and sensations only to feed on their own Nature.

Feeble minds that have been created by this system. Males savagely striving for physical strength, mating with the females that have been deemed "attractive" by the system, and becoming top dog. Women; obsessed over material possessions, social image, and vanity to the point where they would mutilate their own bodies and throw away natural beauty, just to achieve a foolish standard of beauty set by society.

Then there are the smarter ones that see the control that the system has and desires to harness it. They eventually become part of the system and are sucked in. Seeking more money, more power, becoming more and more corrupt each day feeding off of the rush from excessive wealth and control. They lastly there are the brave ones, the ones so bold enough as to defy the system. The ones who are different. The ones who don't want to fit in..freaks..outcasts..these are labels given to the few who have rejected the reeducation fed to them and walked their own path. Tormented by the brainwashed minions. They struggle to live, forever labeled as something horrible….they are trying to trap you in your own mind!

Do not let them created boundaries! Do not let them dull your individuality! Our voices shall no longer be stifled! Our eyes shall no longer be blinded!

-Alex Laugen

From: Swift
You talk like you're in depression atm.

But, runescape keeps me alive. :p

sounds like you are depressed to me… or addicted:stirthepot:

From: Serial_KillaZ
Here is a little something i wrote in 9th grade English.. You might like it..

We are all aware of the fact that we are trying to be controlled. Day by day we go about living our lives not realizing that the decisions we make could not be our own. T.V., the media, advertising, we are all victims. They have created a world of illusion that covers our eyes, telling us what is good and what is not, to push their products into our minds.

Corporate parasites appealing to our basic instincts of lust…greed…and fear, manipulating our desires to mold a false image or ourselves. Dependent on their products to "fit in" only to further line their pockets with cash, and live the American dream of excess and greed. Setting the standards of what's sexually appealing and what sounds are pleasing, only to suck a world where physical sensations are the only things that drive them. Seeking lust, anger, and sensations only to feed on their own Nature.

Feeble minds that have been created by this system. Males savagely striving for physical strength, mating with the females that have been deemed "attractive" by the system, and becoming top dog. Women; obsessed over material possessions, social image, and vanity to the point where they would mutilate their own bodies and throw away natural beauty, just to achieve a foolish standard of beauty set by society.

Then there are the smarter ones that see the control that the system has and desires to harness it. They eventually become part of the system and are sucked in. Seeking more money, more power, becoming more and more corrupt each day feeding off of the rush from excessive wealth and control. They lastly there are the brave ones, the ones so bold enough as to defy the system. The ones who are different. The ones who don't want to fit in..freaks..outcasts..these are labels given to the few who have rejected the reeducation fed to them and walked their own path. Tormented by the brainwashed minions. They struggle to live, forever labeled as something horrible….they are trying to trap you in your own mind!

Do not let them created boundaries! Do not let them dull your individuality! Our voices shall no longer be stifled! Our eyes shall no longer be blinded!

-Alex Laugen

Wow, your vocabulary was very good back when you were in 9th grade! Interesting read, and some points well made.

Thanks, i wrote that for a essay on "Your aspect's of life."

I like that. I'll try and come up with as good words as you next time I'm writing an essay.

But now we are getting offtopic. Lets stick to the subject.

-Knives

Back on topic, Secret your just going though life. I believe most people have this run through there mind at one point of there life.

Benland and Secet make a good point… Im still at school my self… think im the same age as Ben ;)

Ive spent a while questioning specially last two weeks i just feel more awake then everyone else more aware… Theres stuff at school im not good at… that i'll probably never be good at… and it just makes me wonder why i cant start doing what im obviously going to do now…

Im gonna stay in school though… gotta get some good grades a decent degree then i can do what i want… some programming maybe game design… something that really interests me cause if i spend my life adding numbers… im gonna know that i've wasted it…

i know so many people say this is a dumb idea;
but run away, just for a week, it cleared my mind up plenty.

one week gone, looking out for myself, no school but the cold at night. that was the best and hardest week of my life. do it in the winter so you domnt enjoy it too much.

Guess I'll go back to the thread idea..

What keeps me alive and going?
Well, my days aren't just a repeat…until(false) loop - there's something new, something changing, dynamic in my life that makes it worth going. One of my friends has severe depression, and believes life isn't worth going at anymore. Me and his other friends keep him going, even minimally, which helps every day.

Another thing that keeps me going are girls, to put it blankly. The 'system', as you might call it, which makes it very difficult to keep a strong, sharing relationship with another person of the same sex, has given me so many opportunities. Girls are so open with guys they've never even met before - it amazes me sometimes. It might be infatuation that keeps so many people going - believing that you could be so close to someone that the only people they care about are each other, and then calling it love, but so many of my friends are open to trust, loyalty, and friendship from me - of which many have been granted.

I'd say the thing that keeps me alive is making other people cheerful, for in return they make me happy. Can you truly be happy if you're by yourself? Even selfishness exists to get others to envy you in a sense, in effect making yourself feel superior.

With what I said before, to goider, I could never run away, knowing that it would crush the people around me. I live in a relatively safe neighborhood - I've never been pressured to do drugs or smoke, and my friends have never done either of them.

my desire to eat everything :p

that and most people love to see what happens next :p

even though they say life is not like a game it is just like a game / movie.

and most people when they start a game they ether
a) give up.
b) lose.
c) win.
d) eat everything they get their hands on :).



the one thing that keeps us alive is prolly making our own independent choices / desire to make our own independent choices :p.


we stay alive out of pure desire :p
I do not care who you are, as long as you live you desire something.

From: Dark_Sniper
I do not care who you are, as long as you live you desire something.

Unless you're a vegetable on life support… but thats just nitpicking ;)

Cellular Respiration keeps you alive, the A that I got on my biology test last week proves it.

Ben, you make me want to move to the Australian Outback or some third-world country so I can make my own life. But I'm just twelve, no hope for me. I really don't like my neighborhood and all the jazz.

If so few of the human race (since Ben knows so many races, I have to be specific) are individualistic, what do you think will happen to civilization? Anarchy, for example, might cause people to start thinking, but most will be screeching about broken nails :p.

I favor the internet because I can find intelligent people to share my ideas with. They seem to be in short supply everywhere I look, everyone wants to talk about sex, drugs, the newest T.V. shows, celebrities, everything to distract us from the aliens experimenting on us.

-> N3ss3s: What I mean by "the reason of life is to live" is that by living, you are completing your ideals. Or to further the human race. Eg: mating…

-> Ben: You remind me of one of the Star Trek episodes. Theres these "super-people" that understand the universe completely, and they just "disappear" into everything. But they know everything too.

Life is nothing. It means nothing, everything we ever do will amount to nothing, and we are here for no reason.

That being said, does any of that really matter? Life itself doesnt matter. So really, there is no point in living. But then again what is the point in dying? You probably arent realising the magnitude of death. Death is nothing. Absolute nothing. Whereas while life means nothing, at least it consists of something. That something being living.

And personally, I'd rather be doing something than nothing. Doing nothing is too boring ;)

it is suprising to see the reason for life that you people hold to :). However, I am a religious person. I was brought up that way, I can defend my theory to any extent you would like me to, as I have had 7 years of training in it :). Of course, I am not here to debate with any of you, but I do think this is a problem in our society. People who believe that we all evolved from apes can repeat it over and over, but they always ask themselves this question. I assume that's what you believe, since it is very popular, but you basically just said that you don't have all the answers. So basically, if you believe we evolved from apes and you believe the same way Secet does, you are saying you have all the answers (claiming you know where we came from), yet you don't know all the answers (saying what is this life for). Problem?

EDIT:do not turn this thread into a religious debate. If you wish to question my theory, please feel free to talk to me on msn.

I hold the same opinion as pwnaz0r as we have dicussed it. I am also a religious person and he really hit the point I wanted to say, people who say that they believe in evolution and say that they have all the answers, I have often found out ask this very question to themselves. It may just be me, but I feel this contradictory.

u get to wake up at 7!!!??!?!? lucky! I get up at six and go to bed at 2!

From: Special Ed
What is the meaning of life? Who created us? Why are we here? Why can't we understand time and space fully?

Meaning of life: 42.
Who created us: Star Dust.
Why are we here: We're really not.
Why can't we understand time and space fully: Because not everyone knows Benland.

lol i was brushing my teeth and when i read this, i almost dropped my toothbrush. Exactly waht I would have said if you hadn't beaten me to it.

I see school as giving you the oppertunity to do want you want when you get older. Without it, ur prob going to work at some fast food restaurant. Going to school lets you choose to do something you enjoy; for the rest of your life!

let me quote grandmas boy
"At the end of the day you have to do what your passionate about."
Thats what i believe you should live your life for. Whatever you are passionate about.

I thought it was hope that kept people alive, is it not? Suicidal people kill themselves because they have no hope in life…not because they think that the don't have a purpose or have already fulfilled it.

From: BenLand100
Unless you're a vegetable on life support… but thats just nitpicking ;)

Look At Stephen Hawkings :p

I think he is satisfied with hes desires, sorta… XD

From: pwnaz0r
EDIT:do not turn this thread into a religious debate. If you wish to question my theory, please feel free to talk to me on msn.

Aww…anyone who I talk to about this stuff always walks away or changes the topic cause they cant answer my questions and debate what I have to say. If anyone religious wants to have an intelligent conversation, I'll start us off:

If you dont believe in evolution, you believe that god just put us on the Earth as we are now. So how do you explain away all the scientific evidence that we evolved from lesser beings? The DNA links to apes (something like 99.8% exactly the same), the fossils and skeletons clearly showing the progression from monkey to ape to human, etc?

From: The Claw
Aww…anyone who I talk to about this stuff always walks away or changes the topic cause they cant answer my questions and debate what I have to say. If anyone religious wants to have an intelligent conversation, I'll start us off:

If you dont believe in evolution, you believe that god just put us on the Earth as we are now. So how do you explain away all the scientific evidence that we evolved from lesser beings? The DNA links to apes (something like 99.8% exactly the same), the fossils and skeletons clearly showing the progression from monkey to ape to human, etc?

I'd like to see articles and sources from where you're getting this 99.8% information from.

This is trivial to discuss, I think this should be closed to avoid the further wasting of time, that or just stop posting.

Find something better more constructive to do.

Let me respond, the claw. I will take this one (will edit), EDIT For Ice, why? We all have the right to out opinions. Don't close it.. at least move to debates.

Alrighty, here we go. First of all, I would like to see the article(as Swift said). People who believe in evolutionism charge right in there with this statement always. I am wondering if you have ever taken biology? Let me explain some of the finer points of DNA to you.

• The reason scientists can say that our DNA is 99.8% the same as apes is mostly because of the fact that it is DNA. They hide behind this explaination because they think the uneducated IE's (Believers in Intellectual Design) will just accept this, since they are will not hold themselves as "educated" as these scientists. If I were asked this question from a Scientist, I would simply give the counter question "Since you are so educated in DNA, let me ask you this. There are 4 billion or so Nitrogen Bases in DNA, correct? These bases assemble themselves when conception occurs. They always pair up in the same pairs, except in RNA. Cell division in itself is a miracle, considering our cell does not have a "Brain", only a nucleus which contains DNA. Some how, it tightens into Chromatin, goes through IPMAT (cell cycle, Interphase, Prophase, MetaPhase, Anaphase, Telephase) and these Chromatin are strung through by Microtubules, down the center. The cell membrane breaks just long enough for the DNA to exit, and then in a flash, the nucleus of both cells are formed and the cell ressumes its normal course. This cell does not have the ability to reason, yet those enzymes (which are not intellectual, might I add), can find their way through a spiral coding of billions of bases to get a few pairs of DNA for a certain part or protein that needs to be made. This is incredible, if you can only imagine. Watson and Crick were the two who discovered that DNA was in the shape of a double helix, and they themselves declared that there was no possible way a random shaping of particles, which I might add there are 4 billion in each cell (for like the third time :D), in every cell in your body (which adds another few billion) to every person in the world (chalk off another billion) is pure insanity to believe. Those are multiplied to find the resulting odds, not added btw :D.
That is point one. Any questions? EDIT: I will not type out any more on here, if you wish to know more, hit me up on msn. EDIT EDIT: O yes. My question to you is why are electrons not repelled by the nucleus of an atom? You cannot answer, for there is none. Scientists seem to shrug off this point. Care to explain. (Little bit of information, a proton's charge is something like 1000x's more powerful than an electrons. You have to really think about it to compare this magnitude.)

From: pwnaz0r
Let me respond, the claw. I will take this one (will edit), EDIT For Ice, why? We all have the right to out opinions. Don't close it.. at least move to debates.

And why not?

I've seen this topic a thousand times and every time it has led everyone to the strong conclusion that it is pointless to try and comprehend; Trivial.

From: The Claw
Aww…anyone who I talk to about this stuff always walks away or changes the topic cause they cant answer my questions and debate what I have to say. If anyone religious wants to have an intelligent conversation, I'll start us off:

If you dont believe in evolution, you believe that god just put us on the Earth as we are now. So how do you explain away all the scientific evidence that we evolved from lesser beings? The DNA links to apes (something like 99.8% exactly the same), the fossils and skeletons clearly showing the progression from monkey to ape to human, etc?

Ok, Here We Go :)


Actually, I Believe in God And Both evolution.. Why ? Well.. For on… God works in many mysterious ways… :) I think God Is just one who is extremly sophisticated and Wise… No Magical Powers or anything… Just Knows many things… somone who has lived an extremly longer life then us…

hes ways arnt magic, there science…, lol, he doesnt come down from the heavens and say "here is your baby". Actually by paying attention to the bible youll find most of it is just symbolic….

From: IceFire908
And why not?

I've seen this topic a thousand times and every time it has led everyone to the strong conclusion that it is pointless to try and comprehend; Trivial.

because it is the meaning to our lives. Like it or not, SRL is not. I think we can all agree on that. And you haven't had me on every arguement. People need to learn to be more open, as it is the only way that society will get anywhere with this question. Evolutionists are so firm that they wont budge at all, nethier will people on intellectual design.

Let me explain something, I do not make assumptions on my upbringing or fanatics talking to me, I use my reason alone. Yet, this is the conclusion that I come to. I believe it is my job to tell people what I hold to be true, and whether they accept it or not is their own opinion.

From: pwnaz0r
Let me respond, the claw. I will take this one (will edit), EDIT For Ice, why? We all have the right to out opinions. Don't close it.. at least move to debates.

Alrighty, here we go. First of all, I would like to see the article(as Swift said). People who believe in evolutionism charge right in there with this statement always. I am wondering if you have ever taken biology? Let me explain some of the finer points of DNA to you.

• The reason scientists can say that our DNA is 99.8% the same as apes is mostly because of the fact that it is DNA. They hide behind this explaination because they think the uneducated IE's (Believers in Intellectual Design) will just accept this, since they are will not hold themselves as "educated" as these scientists. If I were asked this question from a Scientist, I would simply give the counter question "Since you are so educated in DNA, let me ask you this. There are 4 billion or so Nitrogen Bases in DNA, correct? These bases assemble themselves when conception occurs. They always pair up in the same pairs, except in RNA. Cell division in itself is a miracle, considering our cell does not have a "Brain", only a nucleus which contains DNA. Some how, it tightens into Chromatin, goes through IPMAT (cell cycle, Interphase, Prophase, MetaPhase, Anaphase, Telephase) and these Chromatin are strung through by Microtubules, down the center. The cell membrane breaks just long enough for the DNA to exit, and then in a flash, the nucleus of both cells are formed and the cell ressumes its normal course. This cell does not have the ability to reason, yet those enzymes (which are not intellectual, might I add), can find their way through a spiral coding of billions of bases to get a few pairs of DNA for a certain part or protein that needs to be made. This is incredible, if you can only imagine. Watson and Crick were the two who discovered that DNA was in the shape of a double helix, and they themselves declared that there was no possible way a random shaping of particles, which I might add there are 4 billion in each cell (for like the third time :D), in every cell in your body (which adds another few billion) to every person in the world (chalk off another billion) is pure insanity to believe. Those are multiplied to find the resulting odds, not added btw :D.
That is point one. Any questions? EDIT: I will not type out any more on here, if you wish to know more, hit me up on msn. EDIT EDIT: O yes. My question to you is why are electrons not repelled by the nucleus of an atom? You cannot answer, for there is none. Scientists seem to shrug off this point. Care to explain. (Little bit of information, a proton's charge is something like 1000x's more powerful than an electrons. You have to really think about it to compare this magnitude.)

Simplicity is the base for more complex things, for example take your computer, you need to store some information, ok how do you do that? You change the a into something simple sequences of 'true' - 'false' - 'on' - 'off' ect… but you end up with something 01011101 which has more to it but is broken down into the smallest fundamental counter part. Take the human brain for example, how is it that we actually can think? If you break down our nervous system into its most simple counter parts you have to eventually go into the 'true/false' 'on/off' 'is/is not' simplicity on an enormous scale which you can imagine with that amount of complexity is massive, so massive infact that it is beyond comprehension and even if you think you can comprehend that you are false comprehending which is thinking your comprehending when you're really not which leads you to realization you have possibly just wasted a fair sum of time that you could of used to do something constructive. There was nothing wrong with wondering as our human right to wonder but now I think we have come to realize why it is trivial and it no longer needs to be discussed.

From: IceFire908
Simplicity is the base for more complex things, for example take your computer, you need to store some information, ok how do you do that? You change the a into something simple sequences of 'true' - 'false' - 'on' - 'off' ect… but you end up with something 01011101 which has more to it but is broken down into the smallest fundamental counter part. Take the human brain for example, how is it that we actually can think? If you break down our nervous system into its most simple counter parts you have to eventually go into the 'true/false' 'on/off' 'is/is not' simplicity on an enormous scale which you can imagine with that amount of complexity is massive, so massive infact that it is beyond comprehension and even if you think you can comprehend that you are false comprehending which is thinking your comprehending when you're really not which leads you to realization you have possibly just wasted a fair sum of time that you could of used to do something constructive. There was nothing wrong with wondering as our human right to wonder but now I think we have come to realize why it is trivial and it no longer needs to be discussed.

I read half your post, as I did not need to read it all. You refer to programming, the storing of imformation and the state of this information being complex and simple, but you do not see the whole picture. By assuming you are programming, you must have a compiler no? Compilers are not made from the random "throwing together of code", nor were computers made from the "evolution" of plastic, crystals, etc. If you say that it was, you must say that an intellegent designer (people in this case) had a hand in making it, else all thoese random parts wouldn't have made a working computer. You must also have a person who programmed this compiler and set this "simplicity" into order.

AGAIN, please talk to me on MSN, not here.

OMFG the meaning to life is cookies you guyz!
trust me on this one!


the reason we live and meaning of life have two separate answers :p
the reason we live is because we desire something :p
you take away desire … then you take away motivation … then you take away life as it is …

even though im sure people can argue that, which im open for :p

and the meaning of life is what you want it to be :p




most all of human thoughts are based on belief…
I think specials sig covers that :p or it did idk now.

From: pwnaz0r
I read half your post, as I did not need to read it all. You refer to programming, the storing of imformation and the state of this information being complex and simple, but you do not see the whole picture. By assuming you are programming, you must have a compiler no? You must also have a person who programmed this compiler and set this "simplicity" into order.

AGAIN, please talk to me on MSN, not here.

I never said there wasn't, but yes, moving to MSN ;)

From: Dark_Sniper
OMFG the meaning to life is cookies you guyz!
trust me on this one!


the reason we live and meaning of life have two separate answers :p
the reason we live is because we desire something :p
you take away desire … then you take away motivation … then you take away life as it is …

even though im sure people can argue that, which im open for :p

and the meaning of life is what you want it to be :p




most all of human thoughts are based on belief…
I think specials sig covers that :p or it did idk now.

Cookies are indeed important :D

I think that a lot of factors play into the evolution/work of god conundrum.

For example, do we not ourselves mess with other animals DNA then use/release them one way or another? Thus changing the DNA sequence for generations to come. What if our DNA was changed long ago by a higher intelligence to let us become what we are now?

If there is a God (I won't say what I believe) do you think time is a obstacle for him? Perhaps he changed the DNA over time but for us its a couple thousand years. Thus we think its a evolution that the animals themselves have induced (or changing of environment etc.).

All in all, to many IFs not enough cold hard facts to throw the debate one way or another. Thus the everlasting debate.

Well Pnaz0r and I talked a lot :p


we did agree benland has no faults though XD


you can download our convo as an attachment

or read it right here:

Clay says:
ahh so you don't believe in intellectual design eh?
Clay says:
I wouldn't try to win you over to my religion, but can I at least try for intellectual design?
Clay says:

Clay says:
if not, I'm not the type to press something on someone, so I really don't care
Dark_Sniper says:
wtf?
Dark_Sniper says:
who what where when y
Clay says:

Clay says:
The Claw is beaten
Clay says:
he left the thread
Dark_Sniper says:
i saw
Clay says:
if you have any questions, feel free to let me disprove them
Dark_Sniper says:
i still bel we live because we desire somthing
Dark_Sniper says:
thats why we dont go kill ourselves
Clay says:
I have so many points that I could show you
Dark_Sniper says:
so do i
Clay says:
as a person who believes that, you do not care really about intellectual design no?
Clay says:
you are not opposed to it are you ?
Clay says:
you just think it is there?
Dark_Sniper says:
im open to everything
Clay says:
exactly
Dark_Sniper says:

Clay says:
you are a kind of person I need to talk to
Clay says:
I can convince you so fast
Clay says:
ipromist
Dark_Sniper says:
yay
Clay says:
but not now
Clay says:
I must go
Dark_Sniper says:
u bitch
Clay says:
I promise you, sometime I will convince you
Dark_Sniper says:
i feel so rejected
Clay says:
parents are threatening my time on comp tomorow
Dark_Sniper says:
i shall go cry
Clay says:
hah
Clay says:
if you are seriously open to anything
Dark_Sniper says:
i am
Clay says:
I can defend both intellectual design and my religion, however you are still free to choose what you want
Dark_Sniper says:
exactly
Dark_Sniper says:
thats why im open to anything cause im free to choose
Clay says:
I just pwned him again, although I did not write it right
Dark_Sniper says:

Clay says:
still, makes sence to you no?
Clay says:
OMG been waiting to edit for liek two hours
Dark_Sniper says:
basic
Clay says:
LMAO
Clay says:
i just saw your post
Dark_Sniper says:
im good like that
Clay says:
COOKIEZ
Clay says:
FTW
Dark_Sniper says:
for sho
Dark_Sniper says:
most all of human thoughts are based on belief…
Dark_Sniper says:
thats so true
Clay says:
yes.. as that is your universal
Clay says:
your worldvie
Clay says:
view*
Clay says:
but just because you think it does not mean it is right
Dark_Sniper says:
you need to beleive something before you can prove / disprove it.
Clay says:
If you do not have an intellectual designer, who determines what is right and wrong
Clay says:
would you say it is wrong for me to go up and mug an elderly lady?
Clay says:
be serious though
Clay says:
of course it would be
Dark_Sniper says:
no i would not
Clay says:
lol..
Clay says:
of course
Clay says:
why is it wrong to rape little children (and dont say its not you noob)
Dark_Sniper says:
because they feel no goodz
Clay says:
LOL
Clay says:
no
Dark_Sniper says:

Clay says:
the best answer you can possibly give me is that you have always been taught i
Clay says:
it*
Clay says:
unless of course, you have another theory
Dark_Sniper says:
i could prolly come up with something more complex but its basically boils down to that
Clay says:
mhm
Clay says:
but who set those universals in place?
Dark_Sniper says:
as a baby do you know right form wrong
Clay says:
indeed
Clay says:
why?
Clay says:
how?
Clay says:
that only proves my point
Clay says:
how does a little child, who is less than a year old, know right from wrong?
Clay says:
they cannot speak
Clay says:
there are two answers
Clay says:
a "designer"
Clay says:
or their parent's teach them
Clay says:
right?
Clay says:
who taught their parents
Clay says:
and their parents
Dark_Sniper says:
there is a third but it is hard to explain
Clay says:
what is that?
Dark_Sniper says:
i can't explain it
Clay says:
ahh.
Dark_Sniper says:
im trying to come up with the word
Clay says:
so you might believe something that you cant explain
Dark_Sniper says:
you beleive something you cannot prove
Clay says:
why?
Clay says:
I believe something I feel I can prove
Clay says:
is that not what evolutionists base their theory on?
Dark_Sniper says:
i can easily help your theroy out
Clay says:
believing something that you can feel?
Clay says:
not that is untangeble?
Dark_Sniper says:
where do our emotions come from… our parents can't teach us those
Clay says:
or requires " faith"
Clay says:
exactly
Clay says:
scientists can only explain them as "chemical reactions"
Dark_Sniper says:
that helps your point quit nicely
Clay says:
but do you not see my point?
Dark_Sniper says:
how does our body know how to have those chemical reaction
Clay says:
I have a counter point for everything (I believe I am quite good at this)
Dark_Sniper says:
very easy
Clay says:
mhm
Dark_Sniper says:
go into politics
Clay says:
I should
Dark_Sniper says:

Clay says:
well, can you supply answers for any of my 5 or so questions,
Dark_Sniper says:
i might
Clay says:
short of an intellectual designer?
Clay says:
and do not kid your self with I might
Clay says:
you may need some time
Clay says:
but it is ethier I can or I cant
Dark_Sniper says:
i need the qs first
Clay says:
Who determines what is right and wrong
Clay says:
how do babies know what is right and wrong from birth
Clay says:
where did the concept of order come from
Clay says:
all the questions about DNA from my post
Clay says:
the emotions questions
Dark_Sniper says:
fuck DNA
Clay says:
DNA is the main point evolutionists hold ot
Clay says:
to*
Clay says:
thus fuk evolutionists
Clay says:
correct?
Clay says:
(I am good at this)
Dark_Sniper says:
your putting words into meh mouth
Clay says:
if you go through life believing nothing, you are living for nothing
Dark_Sniper says:
EXACTLY!
Clay says:
living is believing, you do not do anything you do not believe in
Dark_Sniper says:
belief and desire
Clay says:
unless you do something someone else believes in
Clay says:
I cannot talk any longer, sorry
Dark_Sniper says:
damn
Clay says:
I hope you will post some of this on that thread
Clay says:
some of those questions
Dark_Sniper says:
i might
Clay says:
and please say I asked the ones I did ask you on there
Clay says:
I want people to know I am here to prove it to them
Dark_Sniper says:
even though desire and beleif are basically on the same lines
Clay says:
that depends on your worldview
Clay says:
you may desire the "newest" computer
Clay says:
but is it right to steal it
Dark_Sniper says:
hell yes
Clay says:
you might desire to steal it
Clay says:
you see what I mean
Dark_Sniper says:
you may desire to buy it
Clay says:
thats what so wrong with this world
Clay says:
but some may still desire to steal it
Clay says:
and you only steal things (wrong) that you desire(desire)
Dark_Sniper says:
and some beleive in stealing it
Clay says:
thus they can run similar, but never the same
Clay says:
you only need one piece of evidence to disprove a whole idea
Dark_Sniper says:
or to prove it
Clay says:
and this is your one piece
Clay says:
no
Clay says:
to prove something
Clay says:
there must be no faults
Dark_Sniper says:
benland
Clay says:
else what is real
Clay says:
else, real is something that could be wrong
Clay says:
which is messed up totally
Clay says:
if you only needed one point to prove something
Clay says:
then you would need all the other points to disprove it
Clay says:
see?
Clay says:
but its the other way around
Dark_Sniper says:
your going to confuse yourself watch it
Clay says:
you can't say well the world looks flat
Clay says:
so it is
Clay says:
thats one piece of "evidence"
Clay says:
but it is not true
Dark_Sniper says:
the "cause it looks like it" theory does not alays work
Dark_Sniper says:
always*
Clay says:
thus why the we evloved from apes theory does not hold true
Clay says:
correct?
Dark_Sniper says:
restate that
Clay says:
Dark_Sniper says:
the "cause it looks like it" theory does not alays work
Dark_Sniper says:
thus why the "we evloved from apes" theory does not hold true
Clay says:
the reason scientists think we evolved from apes is because it "looks"(seems) like it
Dark_Sniper says:
yup
Clay says:
how can they be they both be true for a person who does not believe in intellectual design?
Clay says:
see where I tie that in?
Clay says:
*goes into politics*
Dark_Sniper says:
i can follow
Dark_Sniper says:
is it ok if i just post this whole convo?
Clay says:
yes
Clay says:
do it
Dark_Sniper says:
can
Clay says:
include these words too
Dark_Sniper says:
your including them yourself
Clay says:
thats what I was just about to say
Clay says:
no you do it
Clay says:
i g2g
Clay says:
cya
Dark_Sniper says:
ok hey
Clay says:
mhm
Dark_Sniper says:
one more thing
Dark_Sniper says:
one thing that is unfaultable is benland he must be the meaning to everything
Clay says:
ha, indeed
Clay says:
alright cya
Dark_Sniper says:
cya

Hah, I said that I pwned some people. But can you refute that? if so were are the answers? I'm not here to be vindictive, I am here to find the answer, whether I am right or wrong. I have many more points, but I must go to sleep, until tomorrow.

What created god? Has he existed since always? What was there before the moment god was born? What happened a second before that? And a second before that? And a sec…. 1/0

*keept everything I just typed out to myself.*


im really trying to censor myself here :p
no matter what i say i know im going to offend someone :p
so im done here :p
its all you pwnaz0r :p

I'm not beaten ;) I left the thread because I had to my weekly computer technition course. I wasnt aware it was a battle, but if you want it to be one then fine, lol. :D

EDIT EDIT: O yes. My question to you is why are electrons not repelled by the nucleus of an atom? You cannot answer, for there is none. Scientists seem to shrug off this point. Care to explain. (Little bit of information, a proton's charge is something like 1000x's more powerful than an electrons. You have to really think about it to compare this magnitude.)

They actually are repelled. They are repelled by themselves, which is why they take a tetrahedral arrangement when there are more than 2 electrons in the shell. It is also why when there are 2 atoms in a molecule the arrangement is linear, when there are 3 it is a V shaped, etc. because the electrons are always getting as far apart from each other as they can. But wait, wait. I re-read your question. Do you even know what you meant by your question lol? There is no reason for an electron to be repelled from a nucleus, since the nucleus has a positive charge, and the electrons a negative. In actual fact they are attracted to the nucleus, but they repel themselves as I just said.

BTW - A protons charge is +1. An electron's charge is -1. Elementry charges. You mean that the protons weight is about 1000x an electrons, not charge.

Now that I have dismissed your question with simple Year 11 Chemistry, back onto mine - yes I know what DNA is. basically your answer was: "Its too complicated for it to happen by itself, therefore god did it" yea? Not really a proper answer I'm afraid. There are stranger things to happen than DNA. And I know what you are going to say: something along the lines of "explain black holes, or why collisions are elastic at a molecular level but not at a larger one". Circular reasoning if I have ever seen it. Just because we dont currently understand some things, doesnt mean that god exists. You may as well just say "god exists because there is no proof that he doesnt".

Remember, a few hundred years ago the churches were telling everyone that the world was flat and that we were at the center of the universe.

Now I wasnt after a fight or a battle or anything, just some conversation. but you seem to want to turn it into a hostile thread because someone is opposing your views. This was not my intention. So yes, please explain all the evidence for evolution such as all the skeletons, fossils etc, the close DNA links and all that. Or did god put the skeletons there to try and trick us?

And sorry, i dont have any links to articles or anything on the DNA links, it was on a documentry I saw. but remember, evolution is the most widely accepted form of creation today, just like we accept the world is round and we revolve around the sun.

so, you "pwned" us now? :)

From: The Claw
Aww…anyone who I talk to about this stuff always walks away or changes the topic cause they cant answer my questions and debate what I have to say. If anyone religious wants to have an intelligent conversation, I'll start us off:

If you dont believe in evolution, you believe that god just put us on the Earth as we are now. So how do you explain away all the scientific evidence that we evolved from lesser beings? The DNA links to apes (something like 99.8% exactly the same), the fossils and skeletons clearly showing the progression from monkey to ape to human, etc?

I'm Catholic and I believe in evolution. Us Catholics are into the whole "guided evolution" thing. God made man, but he used an ape to do it. That kinda thing. That answers your question :D

But as to what keeps us live…

For me, its mainly how terrible everyone who knows me would feel if I went and killed myself. Thats not to say I'm suicidal, just depressed…but I'm working on fixing that :P

I'd say the meaning of life is to find, and fulfill a meaning to life.

Who made us? God.

Why? Love.

Life is about loving people. Loving your parents. Loving your siblings. Loving your friends. Loving your spouse. Loving your children.

That is surely a life worth living.

My favorite scripture of all is 1 John 4:8 "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."

I think most people that don't "get" religion have not been raised in a loving environment, or have not been loved by friends and neighbors, or have been in painful relationships. Once you begin to understand the power of love and loving, the world and the universe and existence make a lot more sense.

So who do you believe made god? Everything has to come from somewhere

See, this discussion is over the fact that some people are always too rational, and can not accept that there is something they don't understand.

Just because everything we know of has come from something, doesn't mean everything has to come from something.

What, so something can just be there for no reason at all? Matter cant just appear dude. And its not that I cant accept not understanding something, there are plenty of things we dont understand - black holes, the other 7 dimensions, etc. But yea I guess I am too rational to blindly believe in something that has no proof of existence. My questions still stand - dont take this as a personal attack or anything, I just want to see the thought behind religion. Maybe it will open my mind

From: The Claw
What, so something can just be there for no reason at all? Matter cant just appear dude. And its not that I cant accept not understanding something, there are plenty of things we dont understand - black holes, the other 7 dimensions, etc. But yea I guess I am too rational to blindly believe in something that has no proof of existence. My questions still stand - dont take this as a personal attack or anything, I just want to see the thought behind religion. Maybe it will open my mind

In a way the bolded statement sums up how i feel.

Been a long time since i posted here, o.O…

From: The Claw
What, so something can just be there for no reason at all? Matter cant just appear dude. And its not that I cant accept not understanding something, there are plenty of things we dont understand - black holes, the other 7 dimensions, etc. But yea I guess I am too rational to blindly believe in something that has no proof of existence. My questions still stand - dont take this as a personal attack or anything, I just want to see the thought behind religion. Maybe it will open my mind

Well, you pretty much said that the there's alot of stuff that we will understand later, just not now…so why can't you accept that about religion?

Because there is no proof of god or any other higher being existing, but there is plenty of proof about the things that we dont understand yet. :)

From: tarajunky
Who made us? God.

Why? Love.

Life is about loving people. Loving your parents. Loving your siblings. Loving your friends. Loving your spouse. Loving your children.

That is surely a life worth living.

My favorite scripture of all is 1 John 4:8 "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."

I think most people that don't "get" religion have not been raised in a loving environment, or have not been loved by friends and neighbors, or have been in painful relationships. Once you begin to understand the power of love and loving, the world and the universe and existence make a lot more sense.

Nicely put, I agree completely.

God is love. Doesn't get better than that :)

I don't know can this be said, but I think those are all very good answers :)

EDIT: ***The following is not meant to be offensive, insulting in anyway***

I just had to say this:

But, runescape keeps me alive.

Dude you don't want Andrew to give you mouth to mouth ffs!

:p :p :p

Ok guys, either: This gets locked, it gets sent to the Flaming Pit or we get back on topic and give Secet the answers he is looking for.

How can "What keeps you alive" turn into a Flaming-War about God between MATURE SRL-MEMBERS!? I'm not going to enter this flaming war, 'cause I see flaming to everyone participating, while the one who created this thread for answers has been put to the background.

I'm advising all to stop this now, or atleast do it over PM'ing or MSN. Or the Flaming Pit.

-Knives

Its not a flame war. Rather, some intelligent conversation :) I can't see any flame anywhere. And like I said in another post, I am not meaning to insult/offend, or anything like that. But I guess it is off topic, a little

Rofl, pwnt :p

So the Andrew joke didn't lighten the atmosphere…

Something even more shitty….

Varrock East Dummy Slapper

A.k.a Michael Jackson? (no offense)

From: The Claw
What, so something can just be there for no reason at all? Matter cant just appear dude. And its not that I cant accept not understanding something, there are plenty of things we dont understand - black holes, the other 7 dimensions, etc. But yea I guess I am too rational to blindly believe in something that has no proof of existence. My questions still stand - dont take this as a personal attack or anything, I just want to see the thought behind religion. Maybe it will open my mind

Actually… Mather and energy are one in the same. Theoretically matter is like a 'standing wave' of energy, and in sometimes with high energy (really high, like around the event horizon of a black hole) matter is created in an anti matter/matter pair. Usually they quickly annihilate with each other, but sometimes (in the case of a black hole) one of the two will pass the event horizon and the other get blasted away (yes, away from a black hole ;)). That was theorized (and mostly proven) by Stephen Hawkins. Sometimes called 'black-body radiation' or 'Hawkins radiation'. Anyway, it’s the way black holes loose mass, their energy is converted into small amounts of matter and blasted away. But still, the matter doesn’t come out of 'nowhere' but it doesn’t come from other matter either, it comes from energy.
Edit: Also, you ever heard of the concept of 'vaccum fluctuation'? Same idea without a black hole. Proof is in the eye of the beholder… Remember that ;)

Omg Ben, Im making a thing in school about space and wrote the same thing about week ago :p

The unaccuracytheory (raw translate), you can borrow energy from "nothing" if its being "paid" soon enough, so that way the borrowed energy gets decreased from the black hole :)

Sorry for my English…

From: The Claw
What, so something can just be there for no reason at all? Matter cant just appear dude. And its not that I cant accept not understanding something, there are plenty of things we dont understand - black holes, the other 7 dimensions, etc. But yea I guess I am too rational to blindly believe in something that has no proof of existence. My questions still stand - dont take this as a personal attack or anything, I just want to see the thought behind religion. Maybe it will open my mind

Isn't that exact what scientists believe? That the entire universe suddenly sprang forth out of nothingness? That matter 'just appeared'?

No matter what brand of religion you subscribe to, including the religion of science, there are always stumbling blocks and seemingly unanswerable questions. I could sit here and take pot shots at the theories of how life evolved on this planet. I could use the same arguments that scientists themselves have used to disprove all the past theories. I could point out that there is currently NO theory to explain how life came to be here on this planet or any other. And I could reject anything else you say about your beliefs because of that one issue. I could hold onto it like a rabid dog, certain that I am right about that 'unanswerable question', and use it as an excuse to turn off my brain and stop listening to anything else you have to say.

That seems to be what you have done. You can't conceive of how God came to be, so nothing else related to God or religion can be meaningful or truthful or worth your consideration. I think that's a mistake. I make room for both faith and science in my beliefs, and in most cases they live in perfect harmony together.

Before the big bang, i.e before we existed take it that there was nothing. This is infinity. Nothing happening for a never ending amount of time. We dont know when it started could of been forever. Now as of anything the chance of the big band exists its hilariously small but it exists. This means that the big bang would happen just by chance. Yes everyone says the probably is small, it is :D but the time that goes with it is so large that its probable…

I guess you chose flame pit ? Maybe it isn't flaming, but atleast a slightly roast.

-Knies

From: BenLand100
Actually… Mather and energy are one in the same. Theoretically matter is like a 'standing wave' of energy, and in sometimes with high energy (really high, like around the event horizon of a black hole) matter is created in an anti matter/matter pair. Usually they quickly annihilate with each other, but sometimes (in the case of a black hole) one of the two will pass the event horizon and the other get blasted away (yes, away from a black hole ;)). That was theorized (and mostly proven) by Stephen Hawkins. Sometimes called 'black-body radiation' or 'Hawkins radiation'. Anyway, it’s the way black holes loose mass, their energy is converted into small amounts of matter and blasted away. But still, the matter doesn’t come out of 'nowhere' but it doesn’t come from other matter either, it comes from energy.
Edit: Also, you ever heard of the concept of 'vaccum fluctuation'? Same idea without a black hole. Proof is in the eye of the beholder… Remember that ;)

Yeh, hawking radiation. All thats doing is changing energy from one form to the other, e= mc^2 and all that. i've looked into this a fair bit, its really fascinating :p vacuum fluctuation, never heard of it. after a quick read on wikipedia though, it looks interesting..

From: tarajunky
Isn't that exact what scientists believe? That the entire universe suddenly sprang forth out of nothingness? That matter 'just appeared'?

No matter what brand of religion you subscribe to, including the religion of science, there are always stumbling blocks and seemingly unanswerable questions. I could sit here and take pot shots at the theories of how life evolved on this planet. I could use the same arguments that scientists themselves have used to disprove all the past theories. I could point out that there is currently NO theory to explain how life came to be here on this planet or any other. And I could reject anything else you say about your beliefs because of that one issue. I could hold onto it like a rabid dog, certain that I am right about that 'unanswerable question', and use it as an excuse to turn off my brain and stop listening to anything else you have to say.

That seems to be what you have done. You can't conceive of how God came to be, so nothing else related to God or religion can be meaningful or truthful or worth your consideration. I think that's a mistake. I make room for both faith and science in my beliefs, and in most cases they live in perfect harmony together.

well, not really. everything was there, and always was. its not as though nothing just suddenly exploded. everything existed, in an infintesimally small and infintely dense peice of matter. at this stage even time and space didnt exist, so good luck getting your head around that. i find it hard, even ben might have trouble :D and there are theories as to why it exploded too. string theory's membranes/dimensions colliding, or a black hole collapsing unto itself.

the theory of life coming to be - cells starting to split inside the immense heat and pressure inside the super nova that created our solar system. which we know happened due to the presence of elements heavier than iron in our solar system. then they kept splitting, and so on. i guess you're right though, we dont have a theory as to why that first cell decided to split, well none that I currently know of anyway. ben probably knows one, or made one, lol.

i havent really just said that religion is bs cause we dont know how god exists. that was just one of the things i said, but i know what you mean and i get your point. i guess the main bone that im hanging onto here is the fact that there are theories on everything in life, apart from religion, which seems to be complete fiction built off a grain of truth (jesus, etc). and all the theories about things in life make sense to me, while the idea of some dude up in the clouds creating stuff for the fun of it makes none at all (to me).

From: mat_de_b
Before the big bang, i.e before we existed take it that there was nothing. This is infinity. Nothing happening for a never ending amount of time. We dont know when it started could of been forever. Now as of anything the chance of the big band exists its hilariously small but it exists. This means that the big bang would happen just by chance. Yes everyone says the probably is small, it is :D but the time that goes with it is so large that its probable…

I like this statement because it undermines one of the biggest arguments AGAINST God, indirectly.

That argument is that we don't NEED God. Everything can be explained by natural processes. For example, if we mix two chemicals and they react, we can explain why that happened based on our understanding of the chemicals and our understanding of Chemistry. If someone says, "Yes, that is what happened, but God made it happen" they are often criticized and ridiculed because they add an extra layer of action that is 'unnecessary'. Embracing the simplest, most direct explanation is commonly known as the principle of Occam's Razor.

Of course, this presents problems when formulating new scientific hypotheses about what happened in the past. We KNOW that the universe has been around for a very long time. And thus, as you said, some really crazy, really unlikely things probably happened along the way, purely by chance. But when you go back as a scientist to describe how things happened, you can't actually do it! Occam's Razor demands that you explain things using the simplest explanation. And saying that something with a 1 in a trillion possibility just happened to occur at point X to allow the universe to unfold in the way we observe clashes with that idea badly (even if that's really what happened). It's kind of like sticking a big ugly 'fudge factor' into your calculations to make them work. It's strongly frowned upon, and people see it as lacking a full understanding. The problem is that as you said, sometimes weird stuff happens that can't be explained by the simplest most direct processes.

So, using Occam's Razor can often lead to incorrect conclusions, and even prevent you from discovering the real, objective truth about things. Of course, science is NOT about understanding all truth. It's only about understanding the small subset of truth that it is capable of measuring and testing. That is one of the most fundamental things that everyone learning about and using science need to understand, and it's not stressed enough.

Sorry to interrupt this educating and interesting coversation, but this is going a little bit offtopic? :p

From: The Claw
Yeh, hawking radiation. All thats doing is changing energy from one form to the other, e= mc^2 and all that. i've looked into this a fair bit, its really fascinating :p vacuum fluctuation, never heard of it. after a quick read on wikipedia though, it looks interesting..

You are kind of brushing that off ;) The idea, like n3ss3s put it, is that borrowing energy in order to form matter happens all the time (vacuum fluctuation). They form 'virtual' particles: one anti and one not. The usually quickly annihilate with each other returning to energy. As long as that happens, the net energy (quantum mechanics likes to average things out to make it easier to deal with ;)) doesn't change. However near a black hole, one virtual particle (anti or otherwise) gets sucked in, and the other blasted away. Since the one particle essentially doesn't exist anymore, the 'virtual' particle becomes a 'real' particle and (BAM!) you just created matter out of 'nothing'. If you brush that off, you fail to see the implications that brings on a larger scale. Where did the matter in the universe come from? What if it was brought into existence from a massive spontaneous creation of matter? It could easily explain how there is (as far as we know) much more matter than anti matter. e= mc^2 as good as it is, is nothing more than any other science, a generalization of what you observe.

Whether or not a conclusion is right is of little importance, its how you reached it that counts. That being said, you conclude that due to lack of evidence that something exists means that it does not. Others believe that lack of evidence that something exists means that it is possible, nay probable. You believe (I assume) that the universe was randomly created because nothing suggests (for you) that something created it. Others believe that the universe was created for a reason because nothing suggests (for them) that the otherwise occurs. Who's to judge who's right? No one for you, the 'creator' for them. But, they believe that you are wrong and their creator will punish you, you believe that they are waisting their time. You might just begin to realize how pointless it is to argue about anything :)

Anyway, I tried to get a little more on topic ;)

Edit: DNA most likely existed before cells, and after the solar system was formed. There is nothing to suggest that a cell existed before the earth was 'fully' formed. Most likely due to the toxic and reactive everything on the early earth, base pairs were formed and began to string together, eventually leading to a cell. Most scientists are certain that DNA existed before a cell was even thought of. It could also be that DNA, like Mitochondria and Chloroplasts, were other organisms/entities (viruses) that became symbiotically attached to cells. There are also plenty of theories out there that suggest that life was brought to earth by a rogue comet/asteroid. Really, they are less far-fetched than scientific creation theories.

All of you are keep saying "I'm not going to flame/go off topic" and "I'm open to all off you", if you all really mean what you are saying then just please, be mature, shut up, and be open to others their opinions.

For the smartass off this topic:

From: The Claw
… at this stage even time and space didnt exist, so good luck getting your head around that…

Time just simply doesn't excists, it's something that humans have created to seperate the day and night and to keep things clear, like when something happened.

It's nothing else then an illusion created by humanity.

What is meaning of life? The answer is different for everyone, because everyone has his own way of thinking. The best thing is to not just believe what other people tell you, but to think about it. For me this is to have something to go for, have variation in your life is big part of it (sorry I can't really explain it very good in english).

I want to go to school so that I have the oppertunity to descide what to do i nfuture life, what it may ever be.

-Tsn.

is everyone against the claw?

anywho I saw some post asking how god was made :p


first you tell me how energy / matter was made :).



And I think most of us here are not going to freak out and have a religion war :p I think we are all smart enough to know that all we should do is debate :p

<3 debating

As do I.. :D let me catch up on things here.

This topic has got to big posts.. How can a dumb people like me read all this? While 99% is off topic and about god?

From: The Claw
I'm not beaten ;) I left the thread because I had to my weekly computer technition course. I wasnt aware it was a battle, but if you want it to be one then fine, lol. :D



They actually are repelled. They are repelled by themselves, which is why they take a tetrahedral arrangement when there are more than 2 electrons in the shell. It is also why when there are 2 atoms in a molecule the arrangement is linear, when there are 3 it is a V shaped, etc. because the electrons are always getting as far apart from each other as they can. But wait, wait. I re-read your question. Do you even know what you meant by your question lol? There is no reason for an electron to be repelled from a nucleus, since the nucleus has a positive charge, and the electrons a negative. In actual fact they are attracted to the nucleus, but they repel themselves as I just said.

BTW - A protons charge is +1. An electron's charge is -1. Elementry charges. You mean that the protons weight is about 1000x an electrons, not charge.

Now that I have dismissed your question with simple Year 11 Chemistry, back onto mine - yes I know what DNA is. basically your answer was: "Its too complicated for it to happen by itself, therefore god did it" yea? Not really a proper answer I'm afraid. There are stranger things to happen than DNA. And I know what you are going to say: something along the lines of "explain black holes, or why collisions are elastic at a molecular level but not at a larger one". Circular reasoning if I have ever seen it. Just because we dont currently understand some things, doesnt mean that god exists. You may as well just say "god exists because there is no proof that he doesnt".

Remember, a few hundred years ago the churches were telling everyone that the world was flat and that we were at the center of the universe.

Now I wasnt after a fight or a battle or anything, just some conversation. but you seem to want to turn it into a hostile thread because someone is opposing your views. This was not my intention. So yes, please explain all the evidence for evolution such as all the skeletons, fossils etc, the close DNA links and all that. Or did god put the skeletons there to try and trick us?

And sorry, i dont have any links to articles or anything on the DNA links, it was on a documentry I saw. but remember, evolution is the most widely accepted form of creation today, just like we accept the world is round and we revolve around the sun.

so, you "pwned" us now? :)

First off, let me say that I really did laught when I read the thing about the atom. Maybe I do not make my point clear, I will have to work on how I word things, as they have not been seeming to come out right. Let me first remind you that this is but one of my points. I would never bring up black holes, let me help you by saying that you prove my point correct yourself. There are more complicated things than DNA. There is not proof that there isn't a God. There are indeed many things that are very questionable about any other view, if you don't believe me read me and Darky's conversation. I believe you are trying to mask me just like the "scientists" do. You are just pushing off my points trying to push a single few. THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST ON HERE.

Let me explain something. I want to help people understand the truth, whatever it may be. I want to debate with anyone, just not in this enviroment where your posts can be read. I have many many points to ask you and I really do want you to talk to me on MSN. PLEASE talk to me on msn, I will post no more here. I never declared this a competition, but I seek what is truth and it seems this is the only answer. Please talk on msn.


EDIT: now that I read through the posts, I think they have disproved most of your points Claw.Maybe I am wrong, but I still want to talk to you on msn.

From: n3ss3s
Sorry to interrupt this educating and interesting coversation, but this is going a little bit offtopic? :p

What would you consider ontopic?

i'm sorry, but there is no way to proof god… nor deny it… it is possible however to proof evolution or proof it's wrong therefor god would never stand as an argument, nor will an argument saying there is no other explenation ever stand as i could always come with the explenation of ancients and the ORI

From: the scar noob
Time just simply doesn't excists, it's something that humans have created to seperate the day and night and to keep things clear, like when something happened.

It's nothing else then an illusion created by humanity.

i'm talking of time as a dimension, not a perception, as in space-time so no its not an illusion. go look up general relativity

You are kind of brushing that off ;) The idea, like n3ss3s put it, is that borrowing energy in order to form matter happens all the time (vacuum fluctuation). They form 'virtual' particles: one anti and one not. The usually quickly annihilate with each other returning to energy. As long as that happens, the net energy (quantum mechanics likes to average things out to make it easier to deal with ;)) doesn't change. However near a black hole, one virtual particle (anti or otherwise) gets sucked in, and the other blasted away. Since the one particle essentially doesn't exist anymore, the 'virtual' particle becomes a 'real' particle and (BAM!) you just created matter out of 'nothing'. If you brush that off, you fail to see the implications that brings on a larger scale. Where did the matter in the universe come from? What if it was brought into existence from a massive spontaneous creation of matter? It could easily explain how there is (as far as we know) much more matter than anti matter. e= mc^2 as good as it is, is nothing more than any other science, a generalization of what you observe.

only reason i brushed it off it cause i didnt understand it properly ;) lol. i dont really see your point though because the amount of energy in the universe is still staying constant, just we cant see it, feel it, hear it, detect it etc. unless of course it travels through the black hole into another dimension lol. it APPEARS to be coming from no where. but in actuallity its not really.

first you tell me how energy / matter was made :).

this topic is now going in circles :p how do you expect me to answer that? other than what i already have in other posts.

EDIT: now that I read through the posts, I think they have disproved most of your points Claw.Maybe I am wrong, but I still want to talk to you on msn.

i beg to differ. no one has prooved any of my points wrong from what i can gather, lol. i guess everyone here is believing what they want to believe. i cant believe in something that has no proof of existance, its the way i am. just as you guys cant believe fully in evolution, because of the faith you feel or something. personally i feel that i have disprooved all your points, and you feel the same way about me. we're not going anywhere here :) im done on this topic too, i guess. anyway its been interesting, ill talk to you on msn either tonight or tomorrow, gotta go out for the day in about 30 mins

but yer i guess like killerdou said theres no way to prove or disprove anything. which i wasnt trying to do anyway :p we are all just arguing about things we have been doctrined into thinking in the first place. as in: you were brought up religiously so you belive in god. i wasnt, so i dont.

i mean, it would be great if god did exist, and there was life after death and all that. but i just cant see it. and no amount of arguing is gonna change that view of mine, because there is a theory and proof for everything that occurs in nature, while for the existance of god theres none at all.

anyways thats it from me, lol. nothing more to say, i think

Time is a word used to describe a plane everyone and everything is moving through. It is not all illusion. By just sitting there, you are moving (through a different plane than we "physically" move through). So, if someone would figure it out, we could possibly find a way to move through time. (Which wouldn't need portal gizmos or some kind of large energy source.)


But, as I've seen on Sythe, it is useless trying to dispprove/approve God's existence. You can cite all of the articles you may, or you can throw all the questions you may, but it all ends up contradicting itself into a null answer.

You have not had me at sythe. I really want to post the conversation I had with ray ray (:) I didn't call you raymond). I took him from thinking it was not even a possibility to him understanding and even saying that it is MOST LIKELY right. He said he is not ready to accept it as he needs time. I will of course, take these actions with anyone else (I used different examples with him than I used with Dark Sniper, yet I convinced them both as far as I could. There is only one step furhter than both of them and that is to accept it for themselves. I will be glad to argue/debate with any of you fiery, passionate people :D


ON MSN

From: The Claw
only reason i brushed it off it cause i didnt understand it properly ;) lol. i dont really see your point though because the amount of energy in the universe is still staying constant, just we cant see it, feel it, hear it, detect it etc. unless of course it travels through the black hole into another dimension lol. it APPEARS to be coming from no where. but in actuallity its not really.

How do you establish how much energy is in the universe and if it is in fact staying constant? My whole point is there are things we cannot at the moment at least explain. Even though matter leaks out of the event horizon as energy sporadically forming particles which are somehow blasted away, when matter (energy) falls past the event horizon, it and the information it carries is effectively lost to the universe. Regardless if the mass is recovered or the energy converted, the information is, as far as we know, lost fully since the matter forms totally new when it escapes. Basically you are saying you are willing to believe that the energy in the universe is constant because some law somewhere with only theoretical proof says thats so, even though you can't "see it, feel it, hear it, detect it etc." But you're not willing to believe in a god even though some law somewhere with only theoretical proof says so, even though you can't "see it, feel it, hear it, detect it etc." My point, everyone has their own opinions, and no one has any more right than anyone else to say that they are wrong unless they possess some forbidden knowledge (for any of you people that know oriental/Indian religions ;)) Think about it, you want to base all science on a grain of truth? Try mathematics; if, by some strange twist of fate, mathematics (or even a segment, calculus for instance) was proven false all science beyond the middle ages would instantly have no validity and be nothing more than generalizations of what is believed/observed. Science has the benefit of the age, it is the currently accepted method of rationalizing the world. Five hundred years ago, that method was religion, and you would be burnt at the stake for thinking otherwise. Who knows what it will be five hundred years in the future, it could very well be that metaphysics (a funny thought, no? ;)) would become the end-all-and-do-all of the world belief system.

Fun-Fact-o-the-Day: Einstein, the mastermind behind the cherished Theory of Relativity, was a firm believer in God, before and after he worked on the theory. He also was a horrible school student because he didn't apply himself at all ;)

Edit: By the way, three atom molecules only take on a bent shape when there are unshared election pairs. Water for instance, has a Oxygen with two Hydrogens bonded to it, the Oxygen, with two lone pairs, and two Hydrogen bonded to it is the center of a tetrahedral arrangement, however since hydrogens take two of the tet's arms, its not a perfect tetrahedron, and since most people ignore the lone pairs, you get a 'bent' shape in the textbooks (104.5 degrees if I remember right). Your explanation was not quite right ;)

Edit: I rarely use this, but here it goes: You want to know the difference between a religious person, a non religious person, and an open minded person? The religious person knows they are right, the non-religious person wants to prove they are right, and the open minded person doesn't care. Thats why debates between them don't work, the open minded person always wins because they are so far out there no one can touch them, the religious person won't debate you because they feel like they are supporting a obvious truth (IE a waste of their time), and the non-religious person spouts off so many facts that they get carried away and claim to be all the more right. There are very few exceptions to this rule, as long as you understand the difference between debate and conversion (pertaining to the religious)

@pwnaz0r - Pick a topic, I'll take the opposite side, and we'll go at it. Just wait for me to get a break from school (and not during Heros or House) ;)

Crap, today it's five pages long… I should've read it yesterday to get it over with… Lotta big posts too…

From: BenLand100

@pwnaz0r - Pick a topic, I'll take the opposite side, and we'll go at it. Just wait for me to get a break from school (and not during Heros or House) ;)

indeed. I pick intellegent designer. Lets go :D

and I do not "spout" anything I believe wastes my time. I base my beliefs on facts. Not really facts that prove mine but facts that disprove yours and "lean towards" mine. People that are in the middle are called lazy, not open minded. Open minded people are searching for the truth but haven't found it. That is certain. However if you want to know my opinion, I do not think what I "know" is an well-known truth, else why must I constantly repeat myself? As for the non religious, they never look at the whole situation. Those are the three problems IMHO.

Pwnaz0r, what religion are you? I'm interested as you mentioned something about it before.


I'll take the person who doesn't really care, as I really don't care. So, if, for example, someone disproved God entirely, what would the religious people here do?

From: R0b0t1
So, if, for example, someone disproved God entirely, what would the religious people here do?

Except… You can't disprove God? :|

You're not thinking theoretically. What if I somehow did?

From: R0b0t1
You're not thinking theoretically. What if I somehow did?

I'm thinking very theoretically. You can't, because it's impossible.

Nothings impossible until proven otherwise. I'm pretty sure you can say that it is impossible to disprove God.

So let me get this straight. All I have to do is prove that God exists, and I'll have proven (according to your standards) that it's impossible to disprove God? Kk. Easy enough. *Holds up Bible*

You can't use the Bible to prove God exists, since if the person disbelieves that God does exist, they'll say that the Bible is a fake book written by a wise guy.

*Sigh* Alright.

Why don't you take a step outside and look a tree? Or up at the sun in the sky? (Granted, over here it's 10:45 PM, and there is no sun out for me. The moon is still pretty cool, though…)

That was random…I have no idea what you're talking about :)

You said that I can't use the Bible to prove that God exists. I decided to use His creation instead.

Edit: Shoot. Everybody left :(

R0b0t1, I stick to christianity. Jason, santa makes a valid point. People that do not believe in Christianity will not accept the Bible. However Santa, you are christian also no? It seems that you shouldn't be argureing about this.

From: Jason2gs
I decided to use His creation instead.

That's not really convincing. I could aswell say,
Earth was created by chickens 3000 years ago.

I am completely agains't organized religion. I don't really have any concrete reasons but it just seems phony. I see so many people in the united states (dont know about the rest of the world) completely direspect the world and go to church as sum excuse to feel less guilty or something. I just dont get it. I'm truely sorry if I offended anyone but this is one of my opinions that loves to blurt out of my mouth or through my finger tips.

note: I live in southern california where I see so many boob jobs on old ladies and escalades it makes me sick.

I dont believe the same as your "church". Most people I know don't have boob jobs :D. The reason that you don't think it is because you are most like people, your view of religion is just distorted. It's not like that. i would like to talk to you on MSN tom.

- pwnaz0r

I feel that purely because thats what I have observed. Neither my friends nor my family hold or influence this opinion, it is purely mine, and that is why I feel it is undistorted.

The reason that you don't think it is because you are most like people

you seem to act as if your answer is 100% correct. "most people" go to church. How do I fit into the catagory "most people". I feel as if I am a minority :/

Also,
I have went to so many different types of churches with friends, they all had the same feel :/ a feeling I didn't really dig.

Again, I am not putting anyone down who is involved with religion, I am just expressing why I'm not and/or not wanting to be involved with it.

~Mikev

From: pwnaz0r
indeed. I pick intellegent designer. Lets go :D

and I do not "spout" anything I believe wastes my time. I base my beliefs on facts. Not really facts that prove mine but facts that disprove yours and "lean towards" mine. People that are in the middle are called lazy, not open minded. Open minded people are searching for the truth but haven't found it. That is certain. However if you want to know my opinion, I do not think what I "know" is an well-known truth, else why must I constantly repeat myself? As for the non religious, they never look at the whole situation. Those are the three problems IMHO.

My question is what 'topic' are you referring to when saying 'intelligent designer'? Intelligent designer is a adjective-noun pair as far as I know, and I'm not aware of any further implications. Topics would be like, Global Warming, Aliens, the existence of Time, Religion, how rocks form, etc. I would steer clear of scientific topics however, unless you are fairly well versed in it. Then again, you'd also need to get more than face value on what I say. Also, since you are really big on the MSN thing, why don't we make it interesting and discuss in a specifically created topic. ;)

As for what I marked with bold, reread my comment and see how well what you said fits with my description of an [evangelistic] religious person. You truly believe you are right, and your right is the only right. You believe all others are wrong. You will profess your beliefs in order to convert others. You see everyone else as ignorant. You backed up what I said, you don't want to waste your time because you are behind what you believe to be the obvious truth. Difference is you seem to have noticed its not so obvious to everyone else and have taken action to make it so. If you want me to clarify what I mean by evangelistic, I simply mean that you would prefer to impose your beliefs on anyone you come in contact with, and would be most happy in a world full of people who share your belief system.

By the way, I consider myself to be open minded. I do not affiliate myself closely with any religion. I do not think that mass religions are effective. However, I know more about religious history than most people. My knowledge of bible stories is quite well rounded. I've had some help understanding meanings of stories in Hebrew with a Jewish friend of mine. The Bible, as good of a read as it is, does not pretend to be end all and do all of religion. In fact, multiple somewheres in the bible it says specifically that it is not all that is. Do you honestly believe that, even if the bible was written by the hand of God himself, everything in it still applies today? The NEWEST books in the bible are almost 2000 years old. The oldest are considerably older and have suffered translations and copying and editing and well-meaning clarifiers… If God whispered to you the Divine Truth and told you to write it down, how many ways do you think greedy people could twist it to their own means? The bible is open to interpretation, it contradicts itself many times. Joshua kills all the Canaanites in Canaan, but in the next book the Israelites are living side by side with the forsaken people. Really now, you can't put blind faith into anything.

The wost thing a person can do is blindly take a side because someone or something told them to. You have to find out for yourself, the Bible can't answer all of your questions, and neither can 'religious leaders' most of whom make me sick. A story, back at old Martha Bowman Church (Episcopalian) there was a rich corporate tycoon who had divorced his 30-year wife with children to marry a trophy wife some 30 years younger than himself. This old man died some time later, leaving multiple millions of dollars to his 'grieving' second wife. Our (we were members of the church at the time) preacher rushed over to 'console' the now rich woman and perspective giver of much needed cash. However, had my father died in a freak accident leaving my already working mother to raise my bother and myself by herself, we would have been lucky to get a casserole from our dear preacher. Meanwhile, my parents helped an almost every church function, and my father was very active in church events. The rich man was not a very good person (as the bible goes). Now, I'm not spiteful I don't think, however it does make you think: why do modern churches exist? Do you need someone to guide you to God? Who said you need a church: God, the Bible or the Church? "No one can come to the Father except through me." Did you see church anywhere?

We are your church, you should tithe to us because we need your money to help you get to heaven. Essentially, every church has preached that at one point or another. Currently, my family is Catholic, and yes, the Catholic church is more guilty than most. Look up 'indulgences' if you don't believe me. Or rather, as Wikipedia so kindly puts it, the 'abuse' of indulgences.

Anyway, for all you science people, don't think I'm giving you a get-out-of-hell-free card ;) You have no proof one way or the other about God, but Christians have a whole BOOK which has been #1 on the best-sellers list for how many thousands of years now, and was apparently indirectly inspired by God. Pretty steep competition if you ask me. ;)

ben, you put my feelings into words in your second paragraph. Thankyou.

Weather god is true or not is just not debatable, however what is debatable is what is most usefull is everyday life, cause come on, evolution doesnt matter in one generation and the bible has to pretty good points in it(on how to behave).

From: BenLand100
The wost thing a person can do is blindly take a side because someone or something told them to. You have to find out for yourself, the Bible can't answer all of your questions, and neither can 'religious leaders' most of whom make me sick. A story, back at old Martha Bowman Church (Episcopalian) there was a rich corporate tycoon who had divorced his 30-year wife with children to marry a trophy wife some 30 years younger than himself. This old man died some time later, leaving multiple millions of dollars to his 'grieving' second wife. Our (we were members of the church at the time) preacher rushed over to 'console' the now rich woman and perspective giver of much needed cash. However, had my father died in a freak accident leaving my already working mother to raise my bother and myself by herself, we would have been lucky to get a casserole from our dear preacher. Meanwhile, my parents helped an almost every church function, and my father was very active in church events. The rich man was not a very good person (as the bible goes). Now, I'm not spiteful I don't think, however it does make you think: why do modern churches exist? Do you need someone to guide you to God? Who said you need a church: God, the Bible or the Church? "No one can come to the Father except through me." Did you see church anywhere?

We are your church, you should tithe to us because we need your money to help you get to heaven. Essentially, every church has preached that at one point or another. Currently, my family is Catholic, and yes, the Catholic church is more guilty than most. Look up 'indulgences' if you don't believe me. Or rather, as Wikipedia so kindly puts it, the 'abuse' of indulgences.

That's almost exactly how i feel. I find i don't need to say much on this thread as somebody else has already said it for me xD

But, i do think that a thread for this should be started in the flame pit or debates section or whatever it is here. We've taken too many pages out of this thread having a discussion/debate/whatever that isn't really related to the topic.

Science and maths doesnt prove everything. For instance here is a mathmatical problem that we dont have an answer to…

You take an infinite set of integers [1,2,3….] and then you take an infinite set of decimals and integers [1, 1.5,1.75,2….]

Now surely if you take the first set away from the second set you will be left with all the fractions as the first is a subset of the second? But they are both infiinitely long and so by understanding the concept of infinity they are equal and so there is nothing remaining?

From: mat_de_b
Science and maths doesnt prove everything. For instance here is a mathmatical problem that we dont have an answer to…

You take an infinite set of integers [1,2,3….] and then you take an infinite set of decimals and integers [1, 1.5,1.75,2….]

Now surely if you take the first set away from the second set you will be left with all the fractions as the first is a subset of the second? But they are both infiinitely long and so by understanding the concept of infinity they are equal and so there is nothing remaining?

You said it yourself: The first set is a subset of the second. And you cant have an infinite subset of a set thats infinite, it just doesnt make sense. Thats the error in the proof for that one, got any more?:garfield:

Basically you are saying you are willing to believe that the energy in the universe is constant because some law somewhere with only theoretical proof says thats so, even though you can't "see it, feel it, hear it, detect it etc." But you're not willing to believe in a god even though some law somewhere with only theoretical proof says so, even though you can't "see it, feel it, hear it, detect it etc." My point, everyone has their own opinions, and no one has any more right than anyone else to say that they are wrong unless they possess some forbidden knowledge (for any of you people that know oriental/Indian religions ;))

yeah you're right. there is just as much proof of god existing, as there is proof that the universe has a constant energy, none. apart from theoretical proof which doesnt count lol. i guess im just predispositioned to belive the scientists more than the churches. just question the motives behind it: what do the churches stand to gain by converting people into being religious? money, and power. what do the scientists gain by voicing their theories? bit of cash maybe, possibly a nobel prize but its not in the league of the aims of the churches. the churches are after way, way, way more, you said it yourself.

another thing would be, scientists are always striving for the truth, always coming up with new theories. all that religions are doing is just abiding by some 2000 year old laws in a book. so while the scientists theories are constantly evolving with the possibilities arisen by the new technologies (worded bad but you know what i mean), the churches are static. in their eyes, what they say is 100% correct. very arrogant, i reckon.

to sum up:

- science: no ulterior motives in proving themselves correct, always evolving their theories, willing to accept they're wrong.
- churches: want money, power. a generalisation, the hindus and buddists arent after these things at all. but relevant to the religions that we are discussing. refuse to accept new theories (locking peopel up for saying the earth is round, and we're not the center of the universe???), in their eyes what they say is what happened, no ifs or buts.

Fun-Fact-o-the-Day: Einstein, the mastermind behind the cherished Theory of Relativity, was a firm believer in God, before and after he worked on the theory. He also was a horrible school student because he didn't apply himself at all ;)

Fun-Fact-o-the-Day-2: In Einsteins last 20-30 years of life (more maybe?) you would be aware that he was searching for the ultimate equation, to unify all forces (strong and weak nuclear, magnetism, electric, gravity). known today as string theory. he stopped working on his theory, or at least approached it with "blinkered eyes", because the results he was getting contradicted his belief in god. :)

Im saying its got no answer? didnt you read?

Last thursdayism ftw? http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Last_Thursday#Last_Tuesdayism

From: The Claw
Fun-Fact-o-the-Day-2: In Einsteins last 20-30 years of life (more maybe?) you would be aware that he was searching for the ultimate equation, to unify all forces (strong and weak nuclear, magnetism, electric, gravity). known today as string theory. he stopped working on his theory, or at least approached it with "blinkered eyes", because the results he was getting contradicted his belief in god. :)

Who's to say he was wrong? Thats like you stopping searching for the beginning of the universe because you find proof of god, who's to say you were right or wrong? You might also be interested to know that he also worked towards disproving relativity because it lead to the great science of probabilities, which he firmly believed were not the correct course of study. Also, I don't know what string theory you are talking about, however Einstein did not work on the modern string theory. He, in fact, only contributed to the framework that the string theory is based upon. The String Theory, another topic all together, its only strong points are abilities to explain the unknown. Lots of people jump on the bandwagon of the string theory without understanding it at all mostly because its the new fad-theory. I understand very little of it myself, and for that reason am not willing to claim that a theory with calculations so complex that modern computers cannot compute them effectivly is the Grand Unifying Theory of Everything. Remember, just because you are being ignorant in a group does not make you any less ignorant. Take your example of the church for instance, they all claimed everything orbited the earth, however they were still wrong. ;)

Why continue this?

Nothing will ever be proven, disproved, or even agreed upon by two different people. Everyone will only ever know what they think to be "true", well for the record no one will ever know the truth no matter how hard we try, everyone just guides them self blindlessly through this conundrum of life. Believe what you want to believe, do what you want to do, try and be as happy as possible because anything you ever do will amount to nothing, but so what? If you haven't learned that this topic is completly trivial yet then you never will anyways, so just do yourself a favor and do something else…

From: BenLand100
Who's to say he was wrong? Thats like you stopping searching for the beginning of the universe because you find proof of god, who's to say you were right or wrong? You might also be interested to know that he also worked towards disproving relativity because it lead to the great science of probabilities, which he firmly believed were not the correct course of study. Also, I don't know what string theory you are talking about, however Einstein did not work on the modern string theory. He, in fact, only contributed to the framework that the string theory is based upon. The String Theory, another topic all together, its only strong points are abilities to explain the unknown. Lots of people jump on the bandwagon of the string theory without understanding it at all mostly because its the new fad-theory. I understand very little of it myself, and for that reason am not willing to claim that a theory with calculations so complex that modern computers cannot compute them effectivly is the Grand Unifying Theory of Everything. Remember, just because you are being ignorant in a group does not make you any less ignorant. Take your example of the church for instance, they all claimed everything orbited the earth, however they were still wrong. ;)

yeh it was his decision to stop working on it, but just a shame that he did i reckon. but who knows, he might have been right in doing so.
and yeap i know he didnt work on string theory, i was just saying that these days its string theory which is trying to find the answer to the ultimate equation lol.

if you dont understand much about string theory, you should download "The Elegant Universe", it explains it all in very simple terms without going into the deep maths of it :)

From: The Claw
if you dont understand much about string theory, you should download "The Elegant Universe", it explains it all in very simple terms without going into the deep maths of it :)

I've read all of Brian Greene's books, and I read the Elegant Universe almost a year (maybe a year and a half) ago ;) The math behind it is enough to throw people with doctorates in various mathematical fields, I'd stand little to no chance at getting the complex stuff. I understand a lot about the String Theory, but nothing in comparison to what is out there to be known. Anyone who is not actively working on string theory research cannot pretend to understand much of it, if for no other reason than the shear speed at which it is evolving.

oxygen, water, and food.

From: BenLand100
I've read all of Brian Greene's books, and I read the Elegant Universe almost a year (maybe a year and a half) ago ;) The math behind it is enough to throw people with doctorates in various mathematical fields, I'd stand little to no chance at getting the complex stuff. I understand a lot about the String Theory, but nothing in comparison to what is out there to be known. Anyone who is not actively working on string theory research cannot pretend to understand much of it, if for no other reason than the shear speed at which it is evolving.

I swear, I understand it 100%…it's so easy!

From: BenLand100
I've read all of Brian Greene's books, and I read the Elegant Universe almost a year (maybe a year and a half) ago ;) The math behind it is enough to throw people with doctorates in various mathematical fields, I'd stand little to no chance at getting the complex stuff. I understand a lot about the String Theory, but nothing in comparison to what is out there to be known. Anyone who is not actively working on string theory research cannot pretend to understand much of it, if for no other reason than the shear speed at which it is evolving.

Yea its crazy stuff. The easy part is getting your head around the whole idea, and even thats not too easy lol. Would actually be a pretty cool job, working on string theory, or M theory…do these guys get paid much? lol