SRL Archive - Discussions & Debates

Most of the "debates" on evolution that I see on Youtube tend to be sponsored and/or hosted by churches or other religious groups, and of course the audience always declares the creationist the "winner". Any examples of a creationist winning a debate with an audience of scientists?

Thanks in advance.

From: superone7
Most of the "debates" on evolution that I see on Youtube tend to be sponsored and/or hosted by churches or other religious groups, and of course the audience always declares the creationist the "winner". Any examples of a creationist winning a debate with an audience of scientists?

Thanks in advance.

Cant find one XD

Any cited examples of an Darwinist winning in one with an audience of scientists? If so, then please explain how life came to be. Every detail. No exceptions. Until that can be explained, there IS NO reason not to believe in God.

No reason not to believe, no reason to believe either though. That's the thing about belief, it isn't based on logic or reason.

From: BMWxi
No reason not to believe, no reason to believe either though. That's the thing about belief, it isn't based on logic or reason.

True, but the basis of the question asked was biased to begin with. I have my belief, and everyone else has theirs. I respect people's rights to their own thoughts.

So where exactly did the particle come from which started the Big Bang?

Cant find the opposite either, people with like people will win debates that are over what they all commonly believe?..

From: King
Cant find the opposite either, people with like people will win debates that are over what they all commonly believe?..

Yes, debates never have any clear winner, just whoever can stack the debate hall? :p

From: Sawyer
Yes, debates never have any clear winner, just whoever can stack the debate hall? :p

That's what my AP government teacher says :D

He's definitely right :p

I'm one to believe in facts, what we can determine with solid proof. Within the bible several times it's proclaimed one should not think independently nor rely on intelligence, but look how far we've come and how much we've learned about the universe around us, our solar system, galaxies, origins of stars and planets, accurately predicting orbit cycles or when this asteroid will pass by that point. How much of this was taught to us through a book? We didn't rely on "faith" to come this far and learn this much. The further we explore and the more independent thought we give the further we come in our understanding of life and how it began.

<My belief>

From: Flight
I'm one to believe in facts, what we can determine with solid proof. Within the bible several times it's proclaimed one should not think independently nor rely on intelligence, but look how far we've come and how much we've learned about the universe around us, our solar system, galaxies, origins of stars and planets, accurately predicting orbit cycles or when this asteroid will pass by that point. How much of this was taught to us through a book? We didn't rely on "faith" to come this far and learn this much. The further we explore and the more independent thought we give the further we come in our understanding of life and how it began.

<My belief>

Those are many good points, but the Bible wasn't meant to teach us about the stars or planets. It was meant to teach us to trust in the Lord, ask for forgiveness, and forgive others as we are forgiven. It was meant to teach us how to live, not how to think.

From: Flight
I'm one to believe in facts, what we can determine with solid proof. Within the bible several times it's proclaimed one should not think independently nor rely on intelligence, but look how far we've come and how much we've learned about the universe around us, our solar system, galaxies, origins of stars and planets, accurately predicting orbit cycles or when this asteroid will pass by that point. How much of this was taught to us through a book? We didn't rely on "faith" to come this far and learn this much. The further we explore and the more independent thought we give the further we come in our understanding of life and how it began.

<My belief>

Before I say this, remember I am christian :D The bible was interpreted by humans, people. We are not perfect sentient beings. I believe there is a lot of sh*t in there that is not really supposed to be. (Dont eat beef, really?) I think while the bible is a good teaching tool, it is influenced greatly by humans. I prefer to stick to the good and dont worry about the clearly absurd rules..beef. I was taught that god is loving, accepts all and will always love us, no matter what. My faith always taught me more moral beliefs, how to treat others, what is right and wrong ect. Not really the whole creationism thing ect..My family takes a scientific approach to that.

From: King
Before I say this, remember I am christian :D The bible was interpreted by humans, people. We are not perfect sentient beings. I believe there is a lot of sh*t in there that is not really supposed to be. (Dont eat beef, really?) I think while the bible is a good teaching tool, it is influenced greatly by humans. I prefer to stick to the good and dont worry about the clearly absurd rules..beef. I was taught that god is loving, accepts all and will always love us, no matter what. My faith always taught me more moral beliefs, how to treat others, what is right and wrong ect. Not really the whole creationism thing ect..My family takes a scientific approach to that.

I take a more scientific approach to the creation as well, and there are just too many unanswered questions that scientists just "theorize" about. What caused the Big Bang? Random chance? I'm not sure all life would be randomly created by chance. I do believe that animals can evolve and adapt, and that there is strong evidence that supports evolution. (Btw, Charles Darwin was heavily influenced by the church.)

From: Sawyer
I take a more scientific approach to the creation as well, and there are just too many unanswered questions that scientists just "theorize" about. What caused the Big Bang? Random chance? I'm not sure all life would be randomly created by chance. I do believe that animals can evolve and adapt, and that there is strong evidence that supports evolution. (Btw, Charles Darwin was heavily influenced by the church.)

I think we honestly will never know and that neither side is "right" faith is just that, faith. Being raised with both religion and science I feel I have the best that fai teaches along with the power of science, but still attain the ability to admit there are unexplainable things in our world(:

Yes, I'm afraid no human will ever know the answer.

The issue happens when we tend to impose our beliefs on to others.

Rather than pondering on the topic of where we came from or how we came to be, we should be thinking about where are we headed and how we will get there.

As always when these things become discussed, it will only end up with people flaming each other and in the end will be most likely closed. However, until that happens, i'll offer my 2cents.

From: hamster31
The issue happens when we tend to impose our beliefs on to others.

This^. The things that have been done in the name of the lord/church, it makes me very confused and saddened. How times used to be. If you didn't believe in god, you were either tortured until you "accepted him" and or killed. I have no problem with people believing in god. It's when its forced upon you that is the problem.

I grew up with a religious family. There was a time I believed, and prayed regularly. As life happened, things happened, and I began to doubt. So many bad things happen in this world, it makes it very hard to believe he is there. I see things with facts and science. Sure we only have theories about "the big bang" and we may never really know how it all began, but to believe we were created by a creator and to ignore evolution and all the other strong facts, I just cannot.

I am just very thankful for the time we live in. That we have a choice to believe or not. I see nothing wrong with believing in god. I just don't see how one day I am praying to god to save my best friend, and the next day he is dead. Just please don't give me this B.S about how god had a plan for him and this was mean to be.

I believe scientists but I don't deny that there might be something more powerfull than us

From: Flight
I'm one to believe in facts, what we can determine with solid proof. Within the bible several times it's proclaimed one should not think independently nor rely on intelligence, but look how far we've come and how much we've learned about the universe around us, our solar system, galaxies, origins of stars and planets, accurately predicting orbit cycles or when this asteroid will pass by that point. How much of this was taught to us through a book? We didn't rely on "faith" to come this far and learn this much. The further we explore and the more independent thought we give the further we come in our understanding of life and how it began.

<My belief>

The bible has quite a bit of science in it. There's quite a few scientific facts in the bible that people didn't think were true or didn't think twice about until recently when they were discovered to be true. Things in the bible only continue to be proved true, not false.

Just throwing something out there :)

From: Austin
The bible has quite a bit of science in it. There's quite a few scientific facts in the bible that people didn't think were true or didn't think twice about until recently when they were discovered to be true. Things in the bible only continue to be proved true, not false.

Just throwing something out there :)

There may be some scientific facts in the bible that could be interpreted as true but there are even more inaccuracies. So that can't really count.

From: Neznam
There may be some scientific facts in the bible that could be interpreted as true but there are even more inaccuracies. So that can't really count.

There aren't any inaccuracies ;)

From: cause
There aren't any inaccuracies ;)

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090519013936AA3EiJL

From: Neznam
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090519013936AA3EiJL

Good read. Down in one of the comments I ran across this page listing quite a few more errors in the bible. Thanks for that link, Neznam.

From: Flight
Good read. Down in one of the comments I ran across this page listing quite a few more errors in the bible. Thanks for that link, Neznam.

Again, you are taking the bible as what it's not meant to be. It's not meant to teach us science. It's meant to teach us how to think and act.

From: Sawyer
Again, you are taking the bible as what it's not meant to be. It's not meant to teach us science. It's meant to teach us how to think and act.

Yes, but we're talking about evolution, which is what this whole thread is aimed at. The inconsistencies (of which we're specifically talking about) in the bible relate directly to the origins of life. In the bible it says Earth was created before the sun, stars created before light, plants created before the sun/light. This is the bible's explanation for the beginning of life, yet science has taught us it's simply impossible, thus exposing inaccuracies.

You would be correct if this were a thread about what the bible is meant to symbolize or if this thread was related to how one should live their life, but this is directed towards science and religion and both of their outlooks on the origins of life.

^ What Flight wrote

From: Flight
Good read. Down in one of the comments I ran across this page listing quite a few more errors in the bible. Thanks for that link, Neznam.

It was one of the few things I found that just couldn't be ignored. Great link you provided as well I missed that.

From: Sawyer
Again, you are taking the bible as what it's not meant to be. It's not meant to teach us science. It's meant to teach us how to think and act.

People interpret the bible many different ways. Some of the inconsistencies that the bible teaches us to think are wrong. You can't help but to doubt when "the word of god", the bible, has errors.

Another contradiction is that in the bible he is described as omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and benevolent.

This means he is all knowing, all powerful, is everywhere at once, and he is kind. Although when you think about it this is impossible.

If he knows about the widespread suffering in some areas (omniscient/all knowing), has the power to stop the suffering (omnipotent/all powerful), and can be anywhere in the world (omnipresent/everywhere), and he is kind(benelovent), then why do people still suffer? Why is there still rape, murder, famine, and war?

You can have 3/4, but 4/4 just doesn't make sense.

From: BMWxi
Another contradiction is that in the bible he is described as omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and benevolent.

This means he is all knowing, all powerful, is everywhere at once, and he is kind. Although when you think about it this is impossible.

If he knows about the widespread suffering in some areas (omniscient/all knowing), has the power to stop the suffering (omnipotent/all powerful), and can be anywhere in the world (omnipresent/everywhere), and he is kind(benelovent), then why do people still suffer? Why is there still rape, murder, famine, and war?

You can have 3/4, but 4/4 just doesn't make sense.

He gave humans free will. That means we rule ourselves, and, according to the survival of the fittest, whoever can kill each other to survive are the best and pass their genetics on.

From: Neznam

People interpret the bible many different ways. Some of the inconsistencies that the bible teaches us to think are wrong. You can't help but to doubt when "the word of god", the bible, has errors.

Do you believe everything a Theoretical physicist tells you?

We have our own choice as to what to believe in. I do believe in evolution, but I believe that evolution was caused by an omnipotent creator. How else could life exist? If you believe in only what you see, do you believe in black holes? They are impossible to see with our eyes. Faith is believing without seeing, so if you believe in black holes, you have faith.

From: Sawyer
Faith is believing without seeing, so if you believe in black holes, you have faith.

Well we can see that they exit because of how they affect what's around them, as explained in the link below. This method of reasoning is visual evidence and logic :)
http://space.about.com/b/2011/02/10/how-do-we-know-black-holes-exist-if-we-cant-see-them.htm

From: Sawyer

We have our own choice as to what to believe in. I do believe in evolution, but I believe that evolution was caused by an omnipotent creator. How else could life exist? If you believe in only what you see, do you believe in black holes? They are impossible to see with our eyes. Faith is believing without seeing, so if you believe in black holes, you have faith.

Sorry to keep furthering this discussion with you, Sawyer; I hope you don't mind. :p

The theory of black holes is something I never really knew much about but like many other wish similar mindsets, I'm curious. After doing a bit of reading I came across this page with a couple pictures of, what they believe to be black holes. Mathematically they can conclude that these 'disks' (both roughly the size of our solar system) weigh 1.2 billion and 3 billion times as much as our own sun, respectively. This gives them an accurate measure on their gravity. From the shear strength of the gravity of these two disks they apparently over-power light itself, which is where we have the theory that nothing can escape a black hole, not even light. It's very fascinating to read up on black holes.

So perhaps once upon a time black holes were introduced through, of course, scientific theory and indeed believed in by faith. But once again science & technology has given us the tools to simply rule out "faith" and provide us with further proof of such things, in this case black holes.

From: BMWxi
Well we can see that they exit because of how they affect what's around them, as explained in the link below. This method of reasoning is visual evidence and logic :)
http://space.about.com/b/2011/02/10/how-do-we-know-black-holes-exist-if-we-cant-see-them.htm

From: Flight
Sorry to keep furthering this discussion with you, Sawyer; I hope you don't mind. :p

The theory of black holes is something I never really knew much about but like many other wish similar mindsets, I'm curious. After doing a bit of reading I came across this page with a couple pictures of, what they believe to be black holes. Mathematically they can conclude that these 'disks' (both roughly the size of our solar system) weigh 1.2 billion and 3 billion times as much as our own sun, respectively. This gives them an accurate measure on their gravity. From the shear strength of the gravity of these two disks they apparently over-power light itself, which is where we have the theory that nothing can escape a black hole, not even light. It's very fascinating to read up on black holes.

So perhaps once upon a time black holes were introduced through, of course, scientific theory and indeed believed in by faith. But once again science & technology has given us the tools to simply rule out "faith" and provide us with further proof of such things, in this case black holes.

Yes, but you still cannot "see" them :p The instruments say they are there, I think they are there, yet are we 100% sure? I guess we will know when someone flies to them. We call them black holes, yet are they really holes? I guess discussions could go on FOREVER :p but this was a nice dialogue, which brought up interesting points, which (hopefully) didn't offend anyone. :)

From: Sawyer
He gave humans free will. That means we rule ourselves, and, according to the survival of the fittest, whoever can kill each other to survive are the best and pass their genetics on.


Do you believe everything a Theoretical physicist tells you?

We have our own choice as to what to believe in. I do believe in evolution, but I believe that evolution was caused by an omnipotent creator. How else could life exist? If you believe in only what you see, do you believe in black holes? They are impossible to see with our eyes. Faith is believing without seeing, so if you believe in black holes, you have faith.

From: Sawyer
Yes, but you still cannot "see" them :p The instruments say they are there, I think they are there, yet are we 100% sure? I guess we will know when someone flies to them. We call them black holes, yet are they really holes? I guess discussions could go on FOREVER :p but this was a nice dialogue, which brought up interesting points, which (hopefully) didn't offend anyone. :)

Black holes are not theories. We may not be able to see them but it's been proven that they are the there. I don't understand the "do you believe in black holes cause they aren't there", that's like saying do you believe in air cause we can't see it. Might as well say there is no such thing as gravity because we can't see it either. Come on now.

That's like me saying well god isn't real because he isn't there. You might as well compare both black holes with god. Neither can exist cause they aren't there right?

See where I'm going? Bad example bro.

From: Neznam
Black holes are not theories. We may not be able to see them but it's been proven that they are the there. I don't understand the "do you believe in black holes cause they aren't there", that's like saying do you believe in air cause we can't see it. Might as well say there is no such thing as gravity because we can't see it either. Come on now.

That's like me saying well god isn't real because he isn't there. You might as well compare both black holes with god. Neither has been proven to exist.

See where I'm going? Bad example bro.

I chose black holes as an example to show how not only Christians believe in things that they cannot see, not how you took how I used it. I am not tergiversating. Btw, how are the proven to be there? Please explain. Actual and non-arguable proof that they exist, not just studies. See? They are theorized to exist by people smarter than me. What if all they are is blackness, and science is wrong? We will never know.

From: Sawyer
I chose black holes as an example to show how not only Christians believe in things that they cannot see, not how you took how I used it. I am not tergiversating. Btw, how are the proven to be there? Please explain. Actual and non-arguable proof that they exist, not just studies. See? They are theorized to exist by people smarter than me. What if all they are is blackness, and science is wrong? We will never know.

They used special cameras to show light bending around them and being black circles ergo Black Holes. The only thing that can bend light IS a black hole. In short, that's the proof. There's a whole lot more involved in that, but I kinda summed it up quickly.

There is also proof of star dust being sucked up by a black hole. Shown in a swirl. Many different ways have been used to prove they are there. It's not as easy as what I said but in short.

Have you ever even read anything about black holes? Can you tell me ANYTHING in all that information that disproves their existence?

I have yet to see any shed of proof, even a theory, about god. We are told to have faith he is there. We are told he is kind and merciful, then with all the murders, rape, wars, etc etc why doesn't he help? Oh free will. That just doesn't make sense. No merciful being would ignore all that being an Omni being.

From: Sawyer
Any cited examples of an Darwinist winning in one with an audience of scientists? If so, then please explain how life came to be. Every detail. No exceptions. Until that can be explained, there IS NO reason not to believe in God.

Lack of evidence for supernatural nonexistence is not proof of supernatural existence.

From: Sawyer
Do you believe everything a Theoretical physicist tells you?

Do you know what a theory is? Please, define it for me as it is used in science. In absolutely painstaking detail. And technically most theoretical physics is now considered factual because of the discovery oft he higgs boson. So really, now its just a "Physicist.

From: Sawyer
We have our own choice as to what to believe in. I do believe in evolution, but I believe that evolution was caused by an omnipotent creator. How else could life exist? If you believe in only what you see, do you believe in black holes? They are impossible to see with our eyes. Faith is believing without seeing, so if you believe in black holes, you have faith.

We can not see a black hole itself, but we can see the lack of light from where they are. So technically we can see them, but literally, no we can not. They are not theorized to exist either like you say in a following post - we know for an absolute fact that black holes do exist.

From: Neznam
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090519013936AA3EiJL

@Flight
@BMWxi
Okay, sorry for the long post and taking awhile to post it, but I believe that these should answer those questions/statements on the yahoo link. I only picked out the ones that I felt needed an explanation the most, so if you want another one of them answered, you can ask. :) You have to remember too, that not everything can be understood by us (that's like saying a goat or something can be as smart as/understand everything that Einstein did), it's just not possible. But from the most evidence that we have, is where these explanations come from.



#1

Not literal

That a day can be longer than 24 hours is indicated by Genesis 2:4, which speaks of all the creative periods as one “day.” Also indicative of this is Peter’s inspired observation that “one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.” (2Pe 3:8) Ascribing not just 24 hours but a longer period of time, thousands of years, to each of the creative days better harmonizes with the evidence found in the earth itself.

#2

Previously, on the first “day,” the expression “Let light come to be” was used. The Hebrew word there used for “light” is ohr, meaning light in a general sense. But on the fourth “day,” the Hebrew word changes to ma•ohr, which refers to a luminary or source of light. (Ge 1:14) So, on the first “day” diffused light evidently penetrated the swaddling bands, but the sources of that light could not have been seen by an earthly observer. Now, on the fourth “day,” things evidently changed.

It is also noteworthy that at Genesis 1:16 the Hebrew verb ba•ra, meaning “create,” is not used. Instead, the Hebrew verb a•sah, meaning “make,” is employed. Since the sun, moon, and stars are included in “the heavens” mentioned in Genesis 1:1, they were created long before Day Four. On the fourth day God proceeded to “make” these celestial bodies occupy a new relationship toward earth’s surface and the expanse above it. When it is said, “God put them in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth,” this would indicate that they now became discernible from the surface of the earth, as though they were in the expanse. Also, the luminaries were to “serve as signs and for seasons and for days and years,” thus later providing guidance for man in various ways.—Ge 1:14.


#4

Genesis 1:14-19 describes the forming of the sun, moon, and stars in a fourth creative period. At first glance, this might seem to contradict the foregoing Scriptural explanation. Bear in mind, however, that Moses, the writer of Genesis, penned the creation account from the viewpoint of an earthly observer, had one been present. Apparently, the sun, moon, and stars became visible through earth’s atmosphere at that time.

#7

Aristotle believed that there was an enormous distinction between the heavens and the earth. The earth, he said, is subject to change, decay, and deterioration, whereas the ether of which the starry heavens are made is utterly changeless, eternal. Aristotle’s crystalline spheres and the heavenly bodies attached to them could never change, wear out, or die.

Is that what the Bible teaches? Psalm 102:25-27 reads: “Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They themselves will perish, but you yourself will keep standing; and just like a garment they will all of them wear out. Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will finish their turn. But you are the same, and your own years will not be completed.”

Note that this psalmist, writing perhaps two centuries before Aristotle’s time, does not contrast the earth with the starry heavens, as if the earth is subject to decay while the stars are eternal. Rather, he sets both heaven and earth in contrast with God, the mighty Spirit who directed their creation. This psalm suggests that the stars are as subject to decay as anything on the earth. And what has modern science found?

The science of geology supports both the Bible and Aristotle in saying that the earth is subject to decay. In fact, the rocks of our earth are ever wearing down through erosion and being replenished through volcanic and other geologic activity.

What, though, about the stars? Are they naturally subject to decay, as the Bible suggests, or are they inherently eternal, as Aristotle taught? European astronomers began to doubt Aristotle’s notion of eternal stars in the 16th century C.E. when, for the first time, they observed a supernova, the spectacular explosion of a star. Scientists have since observed that stars may die violently in such explosions or burn out slowly or even collapse on themselves. However, astronomers have also observed new stars forming in ‘stellar nurseries,’ clouds of gas enriched by the explosions of old stars. Hence, the Bible writer’s image of clothing wearing out and being replaced is entirely appropriate. How remarkable that this psalmist of ancient times managed to write words that harmonize so well with modern-day discoveries!

Still, you might wonder: ‘Does the Bible teach that the earth or the starry heavens as a whole will one day come to an end or need replacing?’ No, the Bible promises that they will last forever. (Psalm 104:5; 119:90) But that is not because such creations are eternal in themselves; rather, the God who created them promises to sustain them. (Psalm 148:4-6) He does not say how, but does it not stand to reason that the One who created the universe would have the power to sustain it? In a similar way, a master builder might lovingly maintain a house he built for himself and his family.


#8

Meaning that all vegetation is available to eat, not that all of it is actually edible

#1 0

The first Biblical reference to a rainbow is in the account of the covenant God made with Noah and his offspring after the Flood survivors came out of the ark. (Ge 9:8-17; Isa 54:9, 10) This splendid sight of itself would have been reassuring and an indication of peace to Noah and his family.

Many opinions have been offered as to whether this was the first time humans saw a rainbow. Some commentators have held that rainbows had been seen before and that God’s ‘giving’ the rainbow at this time was really a ‘giving’ of special meaning or significance to a previously existing phenomenon. Many of those holding this view believe that the Flood was only local or did not substantially change the atmosphere.

Nevertheless, this is the first mention of a rainbow, and if a rainbow had been seen earlier, there would have been no real force in God’s making it an outstanding sign of his covenant. It would have been commonplace, and not a significant marker of a change, of something new.

The Bible does not describe the degree of clarity of the atmosphere just prior to the Flood. But apparently atmospheric conditions were such that, until a change came about when “the floodgates of the heavens were opened” (Ge 7:11), no others before Noah and his family had seen a rainbow. Even today, atmospheric conditions affect whether a rainbow can be seen or not.

#1 1

Misinterpreted

#1 2

Not literally, but figuratively



NOTE: I didn't write most of this. Most are from various Jehovah's Witnesses' publications.


You can also read the 11th chapter of this book, "Why Does God Allow Suffering?" in response to what you guys said earlier :)

From: luxrath
Do you know what a theory is? Please, define it for me as it is used in science. In absolutely painstaking detail. And technically most theoretical physics is now considered factual because of the discovery oft he higgs boson. So really, now its just a "Physicist.



We can not see a black hole itself, but we can see the lack of light from where they are. So technically we can see them, but literally, no we can not. They are not theorized to exist either like you say in a following post - we know for an absolute fact that black holes do exist.

the·o·ret·i·cal [ thee-uh-réttik'l ]-
dealing with theory: dealing with theory or speculation rather than practical applications
speculative: inclined to or skilled in speculative contemplation or theorizing

Again, so you are certain that things exist that we cannot see?

In regards to Austin's link, here is a summary of what it says (sorry if I've missed anything)
1. Despite god being all powerful, the suffering in the world is caused by satan, not god.
2. God allows the suffering because he wants humans to see that it is wrong and get rid of it themselves without him forcing them to not suffer.
3. He is making humans fend for themselves because two mythical people (adam and eve) ate an apple because a talking snake told them to.

From: Flight
Good read. Down in one of the comments I ran across this page listing quite a few more errors in the bible. Thanks for that link, Neznam.

iam guna show that site to my dad id say he would have alot to say as hes very interested in the flaws in religion and history also i would say he would find this extract particularly interesting http://http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm

From: BMWxi
No reason not to believe, no reason to believe either though. That's the thing about belief, it isn't based on logic or reason.

I agree.

From: Neznam
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090519013936AA3EiJL

ITT: People taking the bible literally.

From: BMWxi
Another contradiction is that in the bible he is described as omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and benevolent.

This means he is all knowing, all powerful, is everywhere at once, and he is kind. Although when you think about it this is impossible.

If he knows about the widespread suffering in some areas (omniscient/all knowing), has the power to stop the suffering (omnipotent/all powerful), and can be anywhere in the world (omnipresent/everywhere), and he is kind(benelovent), then why do people still suffer? Why is there still rape, murder, famine, and war?

You can have 3/4, but 4/4 just doesn't make sense.

According to the Bible, disaster (i.e. the aforementioned problems you listed) is caused by human sin, which directly is not a fault of God. If God exists, he wouldn't intervene often in society (what's the whole point of belief if he showed up in a physical form, anyway?)

And of course omnipresence is impossible if you look at it logically.

(I think I'm probably a theistic evolutionist, but I'll be bashed by both sides questioning the validity of the concept if I speak any further (Occam's razor, inconsistencies, etc.) so I'll remain quiet for now.)

In regards to the comments on all of Genesis, the reason for the wording as far as I know, is to be relatable in human terms (using day before light existed etc…)

9. he Bible has a scientific test how to identify a true believer. It is mentioned in the Gospel of Mark, Ch. No.16, Verse No.17 and 18 - It says that… ‘There will be signs for true believers and among the signs - In my name they shall cast out devils, they shall speak foreign tongues, new tongues, they shall take up serpents - And if they drink deadly poison, they shall not be harmed - And when they place their hand over the sick, they shall be cured.’ This is a scientific test - In scientific terminology, it is known as the ‘confirmatory test’ for a true Christian believer. There has not been a single true believing Christian that has ever passed this test, because no one's willing to even try.

Now this is completely false, we pray for healing and it happens ALL THE TIME. (Like, right there, on the spot, hobbled up to the front and walked back fine [in front of about 10-20 people so not a huge crowd, definitely not a theatric]). I watched with my own eyeballs as my Dad was prayed for because he had uneven leg lengths (by about, a half inch?); he sat in a chair with his feet up on another, then the lady prayed for him and I kept my eyes open the whole time and his leg grew out past the other one, then receded back to even length. So anyways, I have the applicable, hands on, directly relates to my life and how it is truth…twisting the words of one of the great mysteries of how the earth was created means nothing as an argument. I think all "scientists" here need to read the story of Jesus (try the account of his life by John, if that doesn't suit you there are 4 more books written by the other apostles [contradictory free of course]) before you can write off Christianity. I will add that I have personally looked up many scientific explanations of life myself SO THERE. EVEN UP THE SCORE!!!

Still haven't figured out this mention thing:
@

From: BMWxi
In regards to Austin's link, here is a summary of what it says (sorry if I've missed anything)
1. Despite god being all powerful, the suffering in the world is caused by satan, not god.

2. God allows the suffering because he wants humans to see that it is wrong and get rid of it themselves without him forcing them to not suffer.

3. He is making humans fend for themselves because two mythical people (adam and eve) ate an apple because a talking snake told them to.

1. Despite god being all powerful, the suffering in the world is caused by satan, not god.

Yes, the suffering is caused by Satan.

2. God allows the suffering because he wants humans to see that it is wrong and get rid of it themselves without him forcing them to not suffer.

God doesn't like suffering, but he has to allow it temporarily to prove Satan wrong. This is to show that Satan is not fit to rule and God is the only one that is.

3. He is making humans fend for themselves because two mythical people (adam and eve) ate an apple because a talking snake told them to.

Come on, you're using your own wording now, that's not what it says. If you want to see it that way though then that's your choice.

Well I tried, I know I can't force you to change your views and I'll respect your opinion and stop there if you want me to.

From: BMWxi
In regards to Austin's link, here is a summary of what it says (sorry if I've missed anything)
1. Despite god being all powerful, the suffering in the world is caused by satan, not god.
2. God allows the suffering because he wants humans to see that it is wrong and get rid of it themselves without him forcing them to not suffer.
3. He is making humans fend for themselves because two mythical people (adam and eve) ate an apple because a talking snake told them to.

The snake was not just an ordinary snake (as you probably already know), it was satan. Satan was once an angel, and he thought that he could be more powerful than God. That is why he turned from God. His goal is to get as many people as possible away from God and to leave God. He started off with Adam and Eve. He managed to convince them that the Apple not a bad thing. He made knowledge seem very appealing and made them thing that if they knew more, they would be greater.

From: Neznam
I have yet to see any shed of proof, even a theory, about god. We are told to have faith he is there. We are told he is kind and merciful, then with all the murders, rape, wars, etc etc why doesn't he help? Oh free will. That just doesn't make sense. No merciful being would ignore all that being an Omni being.

He gives us free will because he never wanted us to be his little robots. Think of it like that. If we had no free will, we are robots that are useless. Robots themselves have value, but they cant build relationships, have friends, etc.

He (God) wanted friends. He wanted relationships with the people he created. He wanted a REAL family. I believe that God created us to Him or the world. He did not want a relationship that was forced. He wanted people to believe without him having to show definite proof that he is there.

Murder, rape, war, etc. are all outcomes of people choosing to do those. These people have weaknesses. It may be absolutely whatever, but the devil has a goal and his goal is to turn the world away from God and turn it into complete and total chaos.

Why doesn't he intervene and not prevent murder or rape (Or other bad things that happen)?

The answer is that the world and the prince (Satan / The Devil) of this world is being shown why we need God and his laws. Because when Eve was convinced by Satan that the fruit would make her wise and that she would not die from eating it and then she convinced Adam to eat, the challenge was made that Man under Satan's rulership would be better than God's way. And what better way than for God to be 'Hands-Off' for the most part in human affairs so they can see the full effects of 'Self-Rulership' even to the point of death and disaster? God has the power to bring back any who have died so he sees death differently than we do.

From: Austin
1. Despite god being all powerful, the suffering in the world is caused by satan, not god.

Yes, the suffering is caused by Satan.

2. God allows the suffering because he wants humans to see that it is wrong and get rid of it themselves without him forcing them to not suffer.

God doesn't like suffering, but he has to allow it temporarily to prove Satan wrong. This is to show that Satan is not fit to rule and God is the only one that is.

3. He is making humans fend for themselves because two mythical people (adam and eve) ate an apple because a talking snake told them to.

Come on, you're using your own wording now, that's not what it says. If you want to see it that way though then that's your choice.

Well I tried, I know I can't force you to change your views and I'll respect your opinion and stop there if you want me to.

Yeah, I probably could have phrased that more religiously.

I will stop debating though, I don't see myself changing my view, and you probably won't change yours. It is interesting for me to see different perspectives though, thanks for taking the time too explain yours :)

Really interesting conversation here. I'm a Muslim by faith, not that religious, but take a scientific outlook at things. Just like in the Bible, there are things in the Quran that suggest the big bang and whatnot, but I feel that neither text is really meant to used as science textbooks, but as textbooks for life. ;)

From: Rincewind
Really interesting conversation here. I'm a Muslim by faith, not that religious, but take a scientific outlook at things. Just like in the Bible, there are things in the Quran that suggest the big bang and whatnot, but I feel that neither text is really meant to used as science textbooks, but as textbooks for life. ;)

That is a very eloquent way to put it. I agree. Hopefully, nobody was affronted during this debate, if so, I apologize :( but I enjoy hearing multiple people's perspectives and ideas in order to more fully complete my own ways of thinking.

From: StickToTheScript

He (God) wanted friends. He wanted relationships with the people he created. He wanted a REAL family. I believe that God created us to Him or the world. He did not want a relationship that was forced. He wanted people to believe without him having to show definite proof that he is there.

I'm sorry but I don't see how you'd know that. Maybe it's what you THINK he wanted, which again leads to how people interpret the BIBLE.

I think, with the advancement in science and our continuing evolution and change, that religion will eventually die out.
Think about it, hundreds of years ago if you didn't believe in god you were killed. Now I can't name an actual percent of the population that don't believe, but it's at least 50/50. Maybe its 20/80(with 80% beleive in god), or 30/70, whatever it is A HUGE number of people don't have faith in god anymore.

What will happen in another few hundreds of years? With all the corruption and scandal that happens in our churches these days, more and more people have began to doubt. You can't say this isn't happening.

From: Neznam
I'm sorry but I don't see how you'd know that. Maybe it's what you THINK he wanted, which again leads to how people interpret the BIBLE.

I think, with the advancement in science and our continuing evolution and change, that religion will eventually die out.
Think about it, hundreds of years ago if you didn't believe in god you were killed. Now I can't name an actual percent of the population that don't believe, but it's at least 50/50. Maybe its 20/80(with 80% beleive in god), or 30/70, whatever it is A HUGE number of people don't have faith in god anymore.

What will happen in another few hundreds of years? With all the corruption and scandal that happens in our churches these days, more and more people have began to doubt. You can't say this isn't happening.

Yes, there are bad things happening, but I don't believe that people will lose faith… It would be a terrible time for the world if there was no faith. There are too many people who are too one sided in this world, who do not posses an open mind, willing to try and understand other people and ideas. I try to be even, but I will stand up for what I believe in. No human is perfect, and no one ever will be. We should try to forgive, understand, and protect rather than ridicule, affront, and harm.